Burned out on Epic Crossovers

[lonewolf23k]

...After Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, House of M, Civil War, 52, Countdown, and more recently WWH, I am now officially burned out on Epic mega-title Crossovers by the Big Two...

I don't know how World War Hulk is going to end, and at this point I don't give a f*** anymore. They've hyped this for so long and to such an extent, making this event take up over half of the Marvel Universe, that I'm retreating to titles that have nothing to do with it, just to get away from the overhyped event.

...Am I the only one who feels this way?

[Nitz the Bloody]

Inclined to agree. The list you gave is like a Hits list of the most wretched superhero comics in the genre's history....and they're all recent releases. And you even left some stinkers out, like Avengers Disassembled and Spider-Man: The Other. :(

It seems like after a brief period of auteur-driven superhero comics that could be genuinely great and appeal to non-fans, we've gone back to middling event-driven comics where you read out of morbid curiosity for the status quo changes, assuming you have some sort of past connection to the characters in the first place. The authors are no longer the main selling point in mainstream comics, and that really grates.

[Shellhead]

All of these recent crossovers, without exception, have been crappy. And very expensive for the poor fools who buy all of the related issues.

However, 52 was not a crossover. All you had to buy to keep up with 52 was each of the 52 issues. No need to cross over into other titles, because they very specifically *couldn't* crossover... 52 covered the year that all the other DC comics skipped. 52 was of variable quality, but overall I would rate it as good.

[Nitz the Bloody]

Unfortunately 52 spun out of a crossover, required just as much continuity knowledge as the average crossover, and set up future crossovers. Chronologically it was seperate from the One Year Later books, but it was still very much an event-driven book. So I think it's fair to lump it in the same wretched catalog as Identitiy and Infinite Crisis.

That, and I thought it ran out of steam early on; I was reading it in the trades, and while I liked the first, I was bored with the second, and am not going to bother with the third.

[stealthwise]

I was burnt out by Infinity Crusade, and I never quite recovered from crap like Heroes Reborn.

Bought Identity and Infinite Crisis and the beginning of Civil War, but now I've just given up on enjoying most mainstream superhero titles. Guys like Brubaker and PAD do a great job of writing around those crossovers and actually expanding on those concepts, but they'll be damned hard to read and understand years from now, when the crossovers are long forgotten.

[Omar Karindu]

I wouldn't mind a genuinely epic crossover, but we really don't get those most of the time. The only crossover that ever truly felt "epic" to me was the original Crisis, which managed to have the scope and the scale of epic. And even that had loads of goofy plot points and plot holes (as does the vast majority of Marv Wolfman's work in the superhero genre, to be honest).

But dammit, Crisis worked in evoking that sense of epic and change; part of that was its inclusion of DC's vast field of non-superhero characters, from Anthro to the WWII heroes to Tommy bloody Tomorrow. That gave the DCU a sense of pulp history a little like the one Planetary does so well with as a deliberately post-epical (or postmodern epical) work. Crisis remains the only time I thought a superhero universe could do real epic as a universe.

[Gloria]

You lucky guys!

I've been fed up with macro-crossovers ever since the first Secret Wars:It seemed then to me a goofy idea and still does... And the evil they brought!! (=Symbiontes, an idea as lethal to the Spiderman series as the clone sagas)

[Ryan Day]

I've been fed up with macro-crossovers ever since the first Secret Wars:It seemed then to me a goofy idea and still does... And the evil they brought!! (=Symbiontes, an idea as lethal to the Spiderman series as the clone sagas)

The first Secret Wars wasn't a crossover (though it did have some continuity consequences), and it wasn't all that bad. Not high art, but there's something delightfully unpretentious about a concept that boils down to "put heroes and villains on another planet and make them fight." It's refreshing compared to today's crossovers that attempt to couch superhero slugfests in Meaningful Drama or Important Political Allegory.

And the early symbiote/Venom stuff in Spider-Man was great. It was only later that it got out of hand.

[Nitz the Bloody]

The first Secret Wars wasn't a crossover (though it did have some continuity consequences), and it wasn't all that bad. Not high art, but there's something delightfully unpretentious about a concept that boils down to "put heroes and villains on another planet and make them fight." It's refreshing compared to today's crossovers that attempt to couch superhero slugfests in Meaningful Drama or Important Political Allegory.

Then again, just because it's not high art doesn't mean it has to be outright stupid. In retrospect, the first Secret Wars wasn't much more than an attempt to foist the 80's trend of toymakers having tie-in fiction ( usually TV cartoons ) onto the Marvel Universe. Except that those old toy tie-ins were at least intended to be stupid; the Marvel heroes were not, yet Secret Wars reduced them to Autobot and Decepticon levels of depth.

It wasn't all bad, as there were some good ideas ( like the X-Men and Magneto forming a seperate camp that the other heroes distrusted ), but compared to other books of the era like Claremont's old X-Men, Simonson's Thor, or Denny O'Neil's Iron Man, Secret Wars is much less. Especially the art, which really was below par.

[Chris Heide]

At this point I get the feeling Marvel and DC are playing a game of chicken to see who'll pull up from the universe-screwing-up one-mega-crossover-after-another trend first...

[Sijo]

DC's current "this crossover runs into another one!" trend is certainly draining. It keeps you from stopping and either taking a break from the dramatic tension or even looking back and savoring what the crossover achieved. Good thing I swore off DC until it stops being so gritty or I would've blown a lot of money on unnecessary crossovers.

However, I'm not opposed to crossovers per se, as long as a) they're well written and b) they're limited to once or twice a year.

Developing them from ongoing events on a series rather than dropping them out of the blue helps, too. And they shouldn't affect ALL books unless it makes sense (no "red skies" crossovers).

[Shellhead]

At this point I get the feeling Marvel and DC are playing a game of chicken to see who'll pull up from the universe-screwing-up one-mega-crossover-after-another trend first...

Neither company can afford to stop. Comics have been priced out of reach for most kids, so all DC and Marvel can do is squeeze the existing fanbase for every last dollar, and they have chosen to do so with continuity-laden crossovers. They might as well start aging the characters, since their sales strategy has no future after the current fans die off.

[stealthwise]

Neither company can afford to stop. Comics have been priced out of reach for most kids, so all DC and Marvel can do is squeeze the existing fanbase for every last dollar, and they have chosen to do so with continuity-laden crossovers. They might as well start aging the characters, since their sales strategy has no future after the current fans die off.

Note the word highlighted there, it's not like they can't actually reach children with their product, they've just given up. Hence all the Showcase/Essential and Omnibus/Absolute volumes and huge busts and expensive toys. Milking is a more appropriate word than squeezing, it would seem.

[Nitz the Bloody]

Note the word highlighted there, it's not like they can't actually reach children with their product, they've just given up. Hence all the Showcase/Essential and Omnibus/Absolute volumes and huge busts and expensive toys. Milking is a more appropriate word than squeezing, it would seem.

In all fairness, DC does have their Johnny DC books, which have made enough money outside the direct market to maintain their continued existence. They do have product available for kids if kids wanted it.

Of course, I tend to think that the often insipid and banal Marvel Adventures/DC Animated books give kids far less credit than they deserve. I wouldn't give something like the Mark Millar Ultimates to an eight year old, but if they can handle surprisingly dark shonen manga/anime like Naruto and Yu-Gi-Oh, surely they could handle the big boys' books if they were readily and easily available?

[MartinRedmond]

I don't know how World War Hulk is going to end, and at this point I don't give a f*** anymore.


Who even cares why it started.

[Kevinroc]

Who even cares why it started.

Judging by the sales numbers, a lot of people.

[panjisudoyo]

I don't mind "huge events" at all, actually..For me, personally..I just buy the core title of the event, like Infinte Crisis, Civil War, World War Hulk, etc..
And if i do see a title worthy of picking up relating to these cross-overs, such as New Avengers and Wolverine ( Civil War ) , Villains United and Days of Vengeance ( Infinte Crisis ), Incredible Hulk ( World War Hulk ) then i'll pick them up. It's fine because they're only a few titles and i can basically understand the main story without having to pick up, say, Ghost Rider ( WWHulk ) or Heroes for Hire ( Civil War ).
Countdown, though?..Now that's a different mess altogether..i'm staying the hell away from that one.
So basically it's all good for me...Just buy what you like.

[Nitz the Bloody]

I don't mind "huge events" at all, actually..For me, personally..I just buy the core title of the event, like Infinte Crisis, Civil War, World War Hulk, etc..
And if i do see a title worthy of picking up relating to these cross-overs, such as New Avengers and Wolverine ( Civil War ) , Villains United and Days of Vengeance ( Infinte Crisis ), Incredible Hulk ( World War Hulk ) then i'll pick them up. It's fine because they're only a few titles and i can basically understand the main story without having to pick up, say, Ghost Rider ( WWHulk ) or Heroes for Hire ( Civil War ).
Countdown, though?..Now that's a different mess altogether..i'm staying the hell away from that one.
So basically it's all good for me...Just buy what you like.

Unfortunately, that doesn't help the readers of the title that gets hijacked for the tie-in issues. Such as the Knaufs' Iron Man storyline being put on hold so we could get a bland recap of Tony's defeat at the hands of the Hulk. Or the X-Books all dropping their individual stories to focus on Messiah Complex this fall.

[stealthwise]

In all fairness, DC does have their Johnny DC books, which have made enough money outside the direct market to maintain their continued existence. They do have product available for kids if kids wanted it.

Of course, I tend to think that the often insipid and banal Marvel Adventures/DC Animated books give kids far less credit than they deserve. I wouldn't give something like the Mark Millar Ultimates to an eight year old, but if they can handle surprisingly dark shonen manga/anime like Naruto and Yu-Gi-Oh, surely they could handle the big boys' books if they were readily and easily available?

Are you serious? I'd rather read a Marvel Adventures book by Van Lente than just about any Civil War tie-in.

[earl]

It is like the disease of when Chris Claremont went wrong in X-men has infected all of superhero comics. The Marvel Universe stuff is completely baffling to me as they have pretty much every title's storyline tied into these things. I have also avoided getting into the Justice League books for the same reason.

Other than the Batman titles, if I want to read super hero comics, I generally have been going back to older reprints.

[Reptisaurus!]

Rather annoyingly, I bought "Countdown to Mystery."

Because I've decided I'm more loyal to Steve Gerber than I am anti-crossovers.

And it was really pretty damn good. Which means that crossovers don't HAVE to make good comics suck.

Granted, the back-up was a Plastic Man/Jean Loring/Eclipso/Darkseid story, which is easily the single worst idea in the history of human civilization.

[Citizen V]

I once heard from a certain someone on this forum that these crossovers or events,or whatever you want to call them are done because DC and Marvel want readers to buy more and cover the fact that less people are reading comics now.It's overdone hype,to get you to buy more.

[Phrozen]

Are you serious? I'd rather read a Marvel Adventures book by Van Lente than just about any Civil War tie-in.

Marvel Adventures Avengers is the best Avengers title coming out now. It is light, crisp, fun, and actually has the Avengers acting in character. Not being bogged down by Bendis' decompression and deus ex machina endings helps alot as well.

[Nitz the Bloody]

Marvel Adventures Avengers is the best Avengers title coming out now. It is light, crisp, fun, and actually has the Avengers acting in character. Not being bogged down by Bendis' decompression and deus ex machina endings helps alot as well.

Defining something by what it isn't doesn't say as much by defining something by what it is. As far as I can tell, many of the adults praising Marvel Adventures books are doing so because it's a sanctuary against change, a nostalgiac haven away from the big bad new ideas that " plague " the modern books. In reality, the Marvel Adventures books have the dramatic weight of a feather, and never rise above goofy fun.

Nothing wrong with goofy fun and escapism, but the mind cannot survive on fluff alone, but that's all certain sections of the audience want.

[MartinRedmond]

I once heard from a certain someone on this forum that these crossovers or events,or whatever you want to call them are done because DC and Marvel want readers to buy more and cover the fact that less people are reading comics now.It's overdone hype,to get you to buy more.

Dude, the X-Men line gets revamped nearly every year. It's not a good sign.

[MartinRedmond]

It is like the disease of when Chris Claremont went wrong in X-men has infected all of superhero comics. The Marvel Universe stuff is completely baffling to me as they have pretty much every title's storyline tied into these things. I have also avoided getting into the Justice League books for the same reason.

Other than the Batman titles, if I want to read super hero comics, I generally have been going back to older reprints.

Chris only engineered Mutant Massacre. The other ones were editorial mandates. It's really Bob Harras who started the cro$$ overs.

[Ryan Day]

Nothing wrong with goofy fun and escapism, but the mind cannot survive on fluff alone, but that's all certain sections of the audience want.

No, but superhero books do not easily lend themselves to serious thought. Some writers can do it, certainly, but for they most party they're just too silly.

Goofy fun and escapism are what superhero books do best.

[trickster]

No, but superhero books do not easily lend themselves to serious thought. Some writers can do it, certainly, but for they most party they're just too silly.

Goofy fun and escapism are what superhero books do best.

Says you. If they were anything like Johnny DC or even Infinity Inc in the 80's, I wouldn't be reading them.
Edit: Then get writers that can. And I'd say that they lend themselves more to serious thought than a wordy 600 page book.
And isn't ironic how people will praise Watchmen for being so deep, but then again pretend that comics should be written something like She Hulk or Slott's Thing?
She Hulk being not even in the same zip code as funny, and Thing being, well, fluff.
And then getting angry that people's first reaction is "but comics are for kids!" (and the only reason they don't say they're for retarded kids is because they don't need the ensuing grief).

[Reptisaurus!]

Defining something by what it isn't doesn't say as much by defining something by what it is. As far as I can tell, many of the adults praising Marvel Adventures books are doing so because it's a sanctuary against change, a nostalgiac haven away from the big bad new ideas that " plague " the modern books. In reality, the Marvel Adventures books have the dramatic weight of a feather, and never rise above goofy fun.

Nothing wrong with goofy fun and escapism, but the mind cannot survive on fluff alone, but that's all certain sections of the audience want.

Still, yer average Marvel and DC fan wants SOME fluff, or they wouldn't be reading mainstream comics. (Kabuki and some of the Vertigo stuff like Sloth are the exception.)

There certainly is a difference between Daredevil and Marvel Adventures Avengers, but they're both corporately produced, somewhat formulaic fluff.
(And I like both of 'em mind.)

Still, if I want something that's gonna challenge me, I'm NEVER going to look to Marvel comics.

[Alan2099]

Defining something by what it isn't doesn't say as much by defining something by what it is. As far as I can tell, many of the adults praising Marvel Adventures books are doing so because it's a sanctuary against change, a nostalgiac haven away from the big bad new ideas that " plague " the modern books. In reality, the Marvel Adventures books have the dramatic weight of a feather, and never rise above goofy fun.

Nothing wrong with goofy fun and escapism, but the mind cannot survive on fluff alone, but that's all certain sections of the audience want.

As opposed to the serious gritty angsty drama that certain other sections of the audicance want? People can't survive by that alone either, and I get more than enough of my share of drama durin the day.

[Capt USA]

I would prefer it if they did crossovers of ongoing storylines.

What I mean is if say Kang is attacking Washington DC and the master of the world puts DC in an impenetrable barrier then do a crossover with any other titles that should logically fit into the situation, if it's not possible to do it without disrupting an ongoing storyline do a one shot or even a mini-series that brings in the other characters, not just let the avengers go at it alone.

It's part of the reason that I was originally interested in World War Hulk, it's an extension of the current Hulk storyline so it doesn't seemed forced (mind you right now it seems as if the writers forced themselves into a corner and have to find a deus ex machina to fix the problem and no I'm not talking the great machine, but Sentry the lamest hero in marvel---if you consider deadpool or punisher heroes then they are of course lamer)

Same thing with the upcoming Secret Invasion, the storyline is coming straight from the pages of avengers, now execution on these things are usually pretty crappy and that I think is what really angers many of the fans.

[Toku King]

World War Hulk is the only epic crossover story Marvel has done this year that I am excited with.
Hulk fighting Ghost Rider was awesome.

[jesse_custer]

First, not all crossovers are bad. But a lot of them are. And here's why.

Most stories and characters have a status quo. Crossovers, which are essentially gigantic plot twists, are meant to shake up the status quo in a dynamic and interesting way. The problem with modern crossovers is that they come right after another. Therefore, the status quo is lost, ignored, or simply non-existent, and these big events are just big events with no real context.