One More Day... SPOILERS ahoy! [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Draconomicon

09-21-2007, 03:20 AM

Awwww... isnt this cute?
Isnt this widdly diddly cute?
Joe Quesada, defender of PROGRESSION IN COMICS is flip flopping about like a fish out of water, to FORCE a change down our throats since he doesnt like Spidey married and his -writers- (read: excuse) seemingly consider "necessary", despite JMS writing an awesome married Peter (although the stories around tend to be terrible lately, see 'The other').

He gave an interview where he said most Writers consider it tough to write a story about a married Spider-man (...are we sure those people SHOULD be writing a comic? You know, the lack of imagination could really hurt the book...) and then he went on a 2 year long tirade in which he railed against the marriage, at. every. given. chance.

Now -this- storyline.
Honestly. It feels as if this is forced down our throat, because Quesada is a liar.
This is the man who defended changes in comics as -good- in one interview (see Spidey and his unmasking), and in the next he turns around and demands to have Spidey returned to his old Status Quo, so 'writers have an easier time writing him', where he just plans to turn Spidey into his 60s equivalent again.

NEWSFLASH! That is NOT progression, NOR is it interesting storytelling.
Its contrived, lazy and shallow, and so friggin see through that it BORES people to tears.

I read spidey comics since a -very- long time, and I was one of those who loved to see him turn into a Husband, and god help me, I actually did LIKE to see him being happy with MJ and having an anchor to hold on with her.
What the hell is it, Quesada? Why do you hate HAPPY couples??

First Cyclops and Phoenix, then nearly Reed and Sue, and now Peter and MJ?
What the heck is wrong with family values that they have to be so utterly deconstructed by you for 'conveniences sake'??
...Yeah, Im not bitter >:|

Someone said Quesada had a divorce recently, is that true?

the4thpip

09-21-2007, 03:29 AM

Maybe Peter will date Flash Thompson now. THAT would be change.

Draconomicon

09-21-2007, 03:36 AM

Maybe Peter will date Flash Thompson now. THAT would be change.
Well, Flash -did- get it on with Peters *evil mystical clone* or somesuch.. although that one was female... or wanted to get it on with that one...

KevinTBrown

09-21-2007, 03:43 AM

I should point out: There's yet to be any basis of FACT in this. It's a scan of one paragraph and it could be taken wholly out of context.

Though if it is true, that should balance out those who hate(d) the Superboy-Prime punch as a convenient excuse to alter things. ;)

Ok, back to the breaking of the internet with this "news bite".

Kevinroc

09-21-2007, 04:04 AM

JMS didn't bring back Aunt May, he inherited that from the Mackie/ Byrne days. Though JMS did make her a viable character again.

And that spoiler has been what has been rumored for a very long time. One of the more popular fan theories is that Peter makes a deal with Loki (since Loki owes Spider-Man a favor per an earlier JMS Spidey story).

If the Loki thing is true, that still wouldn't be anywhere near the levels of Superboy-Prime punches a wall level of stupidity.

Crowley

09-21-2007, 04:11 AM

I should point out: There's yet to be any basis of FACT in this. It's a scan of one paragraph and it could be taken wholly out of context.

I'll tell you it's true and I've know about from friends for months...

PatrickG

09-21-2007, 04:17 AM

That's also a classic Spider-man choice.

And it's perfect! He should be constantly making himself miserable out of a sense of guilt and obligation.

I don't see how Peter can turn down that choice. He's the kind of guy who'd lop off his right arm rather than see Doctor Octopus die.

You're honestly telling me that it's even a CHOICE if he gets the option to give up all of his happiness AND save a life?

The dude HATES being happy. He probably thinks MJ would be better off not loving him!

KevinTBrown

09-21-2007, 05:10 AM

I'll tell you it's true and I've know about from friends for months...

Be that as it may, until there's an OFFICIAL release or announcement by Marvel, it should be treated like any other rumor.

And one other thing: Remember, Marvel has been great at misdirection the last couple of years. Good example is in Astonishing when everyone just knew it was Phoenix coming back and then it's Colossus.....

Johnny_Luck

09-21-2007, 05:28 AM

I been a spidey fan for 16 years and while I definately like spidey better when single and teaming with Black Cat or others the thing with MJ has its moments, right now is one of the many times in the past where it has gotten tiresome and annoying and I can see why they would want to break them up.

I do agree some of the better stories are when he is by himself.

JMS as good as he is, is easily the most overrated spidey writer in history. Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa on the other hand can take crap like Lizard, Vermin and Steggy and turn them into decent villains.

His Black Cat/Rhino Convo in 34(I think)- of sensational was amazing)

I really rather him take over amazing after or at least do a Puma/BC mini seeing as HFH seems to be sadly going away.

Though I do think spidey divorce would be a change for the better at the moment.

KenK

09-21-2007, 06:36 AM

Is Marvel serious?!? I don't even read Spider-Man books, but this just sounds stupid! For one, Aunt May's had one foot in the grave since Peter was a teenager (or more appropriately, she's been drawn that old for as long as Spider-Man's been around), she NEEDS to die alredy! When they originally "killed" her, I thought, "well this is a good, bold step forward for the character." It was something that almost had me interested in jumping on the book, and see what else they might come up with. Then they went and said it was all bullshit, and brought back the real Aunt May. Second of all, Peter and MJ seem to have been through every other major crisis married people face without having to add on the dangers of superheroism, and managed to stick together. Now, Peter's just supposed to turn his back on that? What kind of dumb shit is that! Aunt May would understand, you dolt!

the4thpip

09-21-2007, 06:52 AM

Corrina

09-21-2007, 06:56 AM

Yeah!

Fanboys would rather see Peter getting pestered and harassed by Aunt Mae than having a good relationship (including sex) with his wife!

That's much more realistic.

If you're Norman Bates, I guess. :)

NickThompson

09-21-2007, 06:57 AM

Remember, it doesn't actually say the end result.

Johnny_Luck

09-21-2007, 06:58 AM

Yeah!

Fanboys would rather see Peter getting pestered and harassed by Aunt Mae than having a good relationship (including sex) with his wife!
)

Except we never really see a good relationship with his wife and if they were to ever imply the married couple often had sex there would be a raging amount of people up in arms.

Niether relationship is that normal, well written at the moment, so I take a spidey single because he usually written better than way anyway anyday of the week.

Corrina

09-21-2007, 07:00 AM

It was a joke, Johnny.

jerrymcl89

09-21-2007, 07:03 AM

PatrickG

09-21-2007, 07:08 AM

Is he the kind of guy who would make that choice on his wife's behalf without asking her?

Depends on the writer...

But I don't think he'd take May or MJ's opinions seeing as how they're so damned supportive they'd say whatever was best for Peter.

And Peter doesn't want what's good for him.

Now... Here's a twist...

What if MJ takes the deal instead of Peter?

Cam63

09-21-2007, 07:17 AM

Reporter: " Wow, Mr. Spiderman... You really gave those Marvel guys a good slapping ! Now what are you gonna do ? "

Spidey: " I'm going home to have sex with my wife. "

KenK

09-21-2007, 07:32 AM

Remember, it doesn't actually say the end result.

But the fact that they're even entertaining the idea is kind of insulting. It just seems forced and completely unbelieveable. It's worse than on Smallville, when Jor-El keeps threatening to kill someone Clark loves if he doesn't do what he says!

Rattlehead

09-21-2007, 07:36 AM

But the fact that they're even entertaining the idea is kind of insulting. It just seems forced and completely unbelieveable. It's worse than on Smallville, when Jor-El keeps threatening to kill someone Clark loves if he doesn't do what he says!

Yeah, but Clark left Jor-El with no other choice. They've characterized Clark as being an inept buffoon who cannot make a proper decision on his own, and Smallville Clark really doesn't want to help anyone outside his circle of friends. The speech Green Arrow gave him about finally getting off his ass and doing something worthwhile with his abilities was very apt.

JohnPopa

09-21-2007, 07:45 AM

The whole thing just seems so contrived conceptually: like Spidey's going to say "I've considered your options and, let's be honest, May's an old bag and as much as I'd love her, I'd much rather have my hot redhead of a wife. Sorry, May, thanks for the wheatcakes.'

At the end of the day, there's no real tension because it's completely implausible to suggest that Spidey would choose his Aunt's death over his own happiness.

NickThompson

09-21-2007, 07:48 AM

But the fact that they're even entertaining the idea is kind of insulting. It just seems forced and completely unbelieveable. It's worse than on Smallville, when Jor-El keeps threatening to kill someone Clark loves if he doesn't do what he says!
Who says they are entertaining the idea? When they did House of M they werent entertaining the idea of the world changing into one where mutants were the dominant species.

Draconomicon

09-21-2007, 08:05 AM

Except we never really see a good relationship with his wife and if they were to ever imply the married couple often had sex there would be a raging amount of people up in arms.

Niether relationship is that normal, well written at the moment, so I take a spidey single because he usually written better than way anyway anyday of the week.

Actually, we did see that in comics.
There were often rather quiet issues now and then focusing on the relationship, and JMS did a great job in highlighting it as part of Peters life.

Also, yes, we saw innuendos, we also saw them dropping to bed, laying in the sheets, etc...

wishlish

09-21-2007, 08:10 AM

I still think all of this is a red herring, I really do.

Draconomicon

09-21-2007, 08:18 AM

I still think all of this is a red herring, I really do.

I -really- hope so.

KevinTBrown

09-21-2007, 08:19 AM

I still think all of this is a red herring, I really do.

Pretty much my gut feeling as well.... Though there's probably some basis of "fact" in there.

JohnPopa

09-21-2007, 08:21 AM

I still think all of this is a red herring, I really do.

That's what we thought when they told us what 'Sins Past' was about too.

TCJohnson

09-21-2007, 08:29 AM

Actually, I don't see a problem with that.

Because if they do go through with it...They can still have Mary Jane around and they can date, rediscover each other.

Honestly, I think it creates a lot of potential for some great stories.

the4thpip

09-21-2007, 08:30 AM

Violently Apathetic

09-21-2007, 08:31 AM

It's called "Ultimate Spider-Man."

And 'Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane'.

TCJohnson

09-21-2007, 08:35 AM

It's called "Ultimate Spider-Man."

I just think it is a good compromise. It does open up more story lines while keeping MJ around.

Rattlehead

09-21-2007, 08:36 AM

I still think all of this is a red herring, I really do.

I wish I could feel the same way, but Joe Quesada has made no secret of his extreme dislike for the marriage, and usually when an EIC feels that strongly about something...

MartinRedmond

09-21-2007, 08:39 AM

It's funny they're blaming his sucking on something they didn't do (the marriage) when they've spent the last 7 years doing so much unbelievably crappy shit to the franchise: Peter getting his eye eaten, dying twice and being reborn, the Iron Spider Costume, the Gwen kids aging faster than normal kids nonsense, etc...

I think it's more like they asked themselves, what else can we screw up about Spider-Man? It would feel empty without MJ, let's get rid of her and go to Hooters for a meating.

MartinRedmond

09-21-2007, 08:41 AM

Except we never really see a good relationship with his wife and if they were to ever imply the married couple often had sex there would be a raging amount of people up in arms.

Niether relationship is that normal, well written at the moment, so I take a spidey single because he usually written better than way anyway anyday of the week.

Not really, when I was a kid, they were married and it was quite clear they were having sex. God, it pisses me off to see ingrate creators being handed such awesome franchises and taking a huge steaming dump on them. Not because any of those characters are favorites. Because this is such a great legacy inherited by opportunists tearing it to shreds. Most people working on this hate the books. Well if they're so awesome, why are they even working on something they don't like? They're the ones who made this mess.

/End angry rant.

NickThompson

09-21-2007, 08:43 AM

I wish I could feel the same way, but Joe Quesada has made no secret of his extreme dislike for the marriage, and usually when an EIC feels that strongly about something...

Under Quesada MJ and Peter got back together. They have had a really easy place to remove the marriage, HOM, and left it. In interviews he has ruled out pretty much every way of ending the marriage. He has had his MJ opinions for years, and not done anything on them.

I can imagine them using it as a fakeout. Every time Marvel have a bgi event, the "THEY ARE GOING TO SPLIT PETE AND MJ!!!!!" threads appear. Maybe he is using this, like when Speedball was getting killed or when Jean Grey came back in Astonishing X-Men.

Plus, why would they keep Spidey unmasking and Cap dying so quiet until the last minute, but give away One More Day far in advance?

Rattlehead

09-21-2007, 08:53 AM

Under Quesada MJ and Peter got back together. They have had a really easy place to remove the marriage, HOM, and left it. In interviews he has ruled out pretty much every way of ending the marriage. He has had his MJ opinions for years, and not done anything on them.

I can imagine them using it as a fakeout. Every time Marvel have a bgi event, the "THEY ARE GOING TO SPLIT PETE AND MJ!!!!!" threads appear. Maybe he is using this, like when Speedball was getting killed or when Jean Grey came back in Astonishing X-Men.

Plus, why would they keep Spidey unmasking and Cap dying so quiet until the last minute, but give away One More Day far in advance?

He hasn't actually given anything away yet. What we've seen so far doesn't tell us what will happen. For some reason though, Marvel has always had a thing with doing hollow shake-ups to the Spider-Man books, I've got a whole stack of em from the late 80's-early 90's and just about all of them tie into some half-cocked event meant to change that status quo. They really can't kill Aunt May again, they've done it so many times now it's meaningless. Breaking up the marriage is just about the only big shake-up left for them to do. Doing will so will give them their much coveted "Big Event" and will also allow them to undo the foolhardy decision to unmask Peter at the same time. Quesada likes his events just as much as Didio does, and I really can't imagine Joe Q not doing it.

JKCarrier

09-21-2007, 10:22 AM

If they want to end the marriage, I have no objection -- there's plenty of good, dramatic stories that could come out of Pete trying to put his life back together after such a trauma. But doing it via some contrived "retcon punch" would be a big mistake. Suddenly they're going to have to rewrite most of Spidey's history, to take into the account MJ's absence. It'll be a confusing, contradictory mess... remember post-Crisis Hawkman? Bad, bad move.

TCJohnson

09-21-2007, 10:24 AM

shrike

09-21-2007, 10:24 AM

Personally I've hated the marriage since 'everyman' Peter Parker was with a supermodel.

Come on, that was just stupid.

TCJohnson

09-21-2007, 10:32 AM

Admit it, Shrike...you're Joe Quesada!

PatrickG

09-21-2007, 10:42 AM

Did you guys miss the FCBD comic or the picture here?

Mary Jane is obviously gonna be a super-hero ally of Spidey's when the dust settles.

KevinTBrown

09-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Personally I've hated the marriage since 'everyman' Peter Parker was with a supermodel.

Come on, that was just stupid.

Well, MJ was literally the "girl next door" to the Parkers when Peter was in high school. The running joke for the early issues was Aunt May trying to set Peter up with "that nice Watson girl".

They have known each other long before she became a famous model/actress. So they definitely have a very long history.

Charles RB

09-21-2007, 11:38 AM

What would I do? I'd let Aunt May die and keep the marriage, because the latter is more interesting plotwise and it'd piss off Quesceda.

Magically erasing the marriage? Oh fuck OFF. Is that the best you can bloody do?! Why not just put up a giant sign saying: "Hey, all you people who starting read Spider-Man after 1987 - you all SUCK and WE HATE YOU, so we're going to scrub out everything you read!".

In fact, they better scrub it all out. Everything about Spider-Man should be instantly different, half of his stories for the past 20 years should no longer exist, and he should be in a worse position than before because there've been several moments since 1987 where it was Mary Jane who kept him going. Retroactively take out all the support and aide she gave him? He should be a total mental wreck with no life and bitter - Saint of Killers-style bitter.

Oh, and you need to completely change the Thunderbolts because, hey, Norman Osborn's history and Mac Gargan's history is going to be different if Spidey's is. Also - no Mary Jane? No Spider-baby. No Spider-baby? Peter never hands the webs over to Ben Reilly - so Ben Reilly isn't in the position to die. So he's still around. He's probably better off than Peter at the moment, in fact. Also, that Carlisle bloke from an early JMS story has killed Doctor Octopus and replaced him, because without MJ Spidey had no reason to go to Florida and get involved. And The Other probably turned out differently, and Peter's probably already involved with another woman and so won't be dating, and...

You're going to erase the marriage from history, let's see you really erase it. Put your money where your mouth is.

It does open up more story lines while keeping MJ around.

Why bother keeping her around? Everyone reading knows nothing is ever going to happen there, ever, because Marvel want to keep him dating multiple people. Who cares?

Personally I've hated the marriage since 'everyman' Peter Parker was with a supermodel.

She's not a supermodel. She hasn't been a super-model for years - since 2000, IIRC. And she stopped being a supermodel, also for years, back in the 90s... and then around the time of the relaunch, she became a supermodel again and an uber-successful one at the same time the editorial regime was claiming "the marriage is a problem because he's married to a supermodel". Well why did you have/let the writers make her one again then?!

Mysterio

09-21-2007, 11:54 AM

That paragraph of text came out of the latest issue of CBG. The interesting thing about that article is, later on, it says something to the effect of "Once Peter makes his decision, he and MJ have just 24 hours to spend with each other." Unless it's a red herring, that says to me he chooses May and all is done.

shrike

09-21-2007, 12:20 PM

Well, MJ was literally the "girl next door" to the Parkers when Peter was in high school. The running joke for the early issues was Aunt May trying to set Peter up with "that nice Watson girl".

They have known each other long before she became a famous model/actress. So they definitely have a very long history.

LOL uhm.... thanks for pointing out the obvious?

My POINT was that I've been turned off by the PP/MJ marriage since it went the way of her being a supermodel. Peter is the 'everyman', NOT the guy who gets the successful supermodel.

Make her a social worker, have her start a business... SOMETHING. One of the things people like about Spider Man is that he is a regular joe. That marriage to me soured when they started making her larger than life.

Rattlehead

09-21-2007, 12:27 PM

Did you guys miss the FCBD comic or the picture here?

Mary Jane is obviously gonna be a super-hero ally of Spidey's when the dust settles.

Ahh, yes Jackpot. I can honestly say that the FCBD issue of of Spider-Man is the best one to come out in a long, long time. No angst, no events, just good old fashioned web-slinging, fun loving Spider-Man.

KevinTBrown

09-21-2007, 12:27 PM

Charles RB

09-21-2007, 01:18 PM

Make her a social worker, have her start a business... SOMETHING.

Well, for the past six or seven years she's been an actress, and a low-rent non-famous one at that. Mostly on stage too, IIRC.

TCJohnson

09-21-2007, 01:26 PM

Make her a social worker, have her start a business...

Now seriously, who would date a social worker?

Charles RB

09-21-2007, 01:32 PM

Now seriously, who would date a social worker?

If that social worker looked like Mary Jane, probably lots of people.

kingdom2000

09-21-2007, 02:36 PM

LOL uhm.... thanks for pointing out the obvious?

My POINT was that I've been turned off by the PP/MJ marriage since it went the way of her being a supermodel. Peter is the 'everyman', NOT the guy who gets the successful supermodel.

Make her a social worker, have her start a business... SOMETHING. One of the things people like about Spider Man is that he is a regular joe. That marriage to me soured when they started making her larger than life.

considering that every women in SM's life would be a supermodel in real life, your dislike doesn't make since. Be it Hardy, any member of the avengers, shoot any female in the Marvel U, they are all drawn as 10s that in the real world would be outside his league and wouldn't give him the time of day. Peter is resigned to a life of a series of supermodels within the pages. The only difference is not have that as a job description.

Lester C.

09-22-2007, 12:28 AM

Marvel did something similar to this in the Clone War storyline. It worked so well back then that they are going to try the same thing ten years later.:rolleyes:

the4thpip

09-22-2007, 02:03 AM

considering that every women in SM's life would be a supermodel in real life, your dislike doesn't make since. Be it Hardy, any member of the avengers, shoot any female in the Marvel U, they are all drawn as 10s that in the real world would be outside his league and wouldn't give him the time of day. Peter is resigned to a life of a series of supermodels within the pages. The only difference is not have that as a job description.

I think they tried to go a different direction with Deb Whitman.

Astonishing X-Fan

09-22-2007, 10:00 AM

My POINT was that I've been turned off by the PP/MJ marriage since it went the way of her being a supermodel. Peter is the 'everyman', NOT the guy who gets the successful supermodel.

But isn't an "everyman" like Peter actually managing to get himself a supermodel wife part of the appeal in the first place?

The normal everyday guy getting the hot wife simply because he's a truly good person and not because he's a football star or something is pretty uplifting, if you ask me.

AaronJ

09-22-2007, 11:07 AM

I don't now, nor have I ever read any Spidey books. And I'm pretty light into Marvel to start with.

That being said, I can't believe someone hasn't suggested, as Charles has, the enormity of something like this. The continuity issues alone are GIGANTIC.

Rich Johnston has said that it will be a "Danny the Street" type of thing, where events will have occurred in the past, but will be slightly different, with slightly different people involved.

That sounds suspiciously close to throwing two decades of Marvel stories out the window, but what do I know?

And I'm VERY curious as to how this will impact Civil War, just months after it ended. I mean, if Peter never unmasks, isn't the entire outcome completely different? Why is he on the New Avengers now? Or was he never on Tony's side? Or was he always on Tony's side, and never switched?

Quite honestly, this seems a bit cowardly. Joe Q doesn't want them married. He doesn't want Peter as divorced man. He doesn't want Peter as a widower.

Man up, Nancy, and pick one for crying out loud!

PS: Isn't this basically what Morrison thought up for getting rid of the Super-Marriage? Which, btw, if they ever did I would drop every single DC book without question, on the spot.

Astonishing X-Fan

09-22-2007, 11:20 AM

I hate how Marvel just hates progress.

It's like the whole mutant thing. Morrison and others progressed the mutant situation in such a realistic, interesting way. The mutant situation had evolved. Things like mutant districts in cities and mutant-themed nightclubs and mutants becoming popular in culture...PROGRESS.

Then they used Wanda to just throw it all away and go right back to the old status quo.

What's the point if major change never sticks. Why would I want these characters to be in the exact same situations that they were fouty years ago? I want things to move FORWARD.

I don't want mutants to be a practically non-existant minority anymore. I don't want Peter's marriage to just dissapear.

How much do you want to bet five years from now Wolverine will have forgotten his whole past again? Or that the Superhuman Registration Act will be completely phased out? Or Emma will be gone and Scott/Jean will be back together?

It just sucks. I like change. I like progress. And everytime I get it, it just gets taken away eventually.

KevinTBrown

09-22-2007, 12:31 PM

I'm waiting for some "adventurous fan" to point on the one major continuity issue (in a different Marvel title) that can not be changed because of the fact that they were married....

And you know someone will because there's got to be that "one thing".

Jack Zodiac

09-22-2007, 12:42 PM

I think, by this point, everyone's accepting that it's an alternate universe and not a "possible future." Lucky for Mayday, her world apparently never went through the ridiculous horseshit of a superhero civil war.

The Xenos

09-22-2007, 04:29 PM

It sounds like JMS has seen Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind a few times too many.

Evan Waters

09-23-2007, 12:10 AM

So, is everyone just choosing to ignore the presence of "Jackpot" in future solicits, or what?

She. Is. Not. Going. Away. You can make book on that.

(I do have a theory that they may publicly divorce just to make MJ not a target, hence she adopts the superheroine persona to become his crimefighting partner and lover.)

Charles RB

09-23-2007, 12:57 PM

Rich Johnston has said that it will be a "Danny the Street" type of thing, where events will have occurred in the past, but will be slightly different, with slightly different people involved.

Which makes no logical sense, but I guess they lack the balls to go the other way.

And I'm VERY curious as to how this will impact Civil War, just months after it ended. I mean, if Peter never unmasks, isn't the entire outcome completely different? Why is he on the New Avengers now? Or was he never on Tony's side? Or was he always on Tony's side, and never switched?

Now that's a good point. They're buggering their own Big Important Crossover here.

Charles RB

09-23-2007, 01:02 PM

It's like the whole mutant thing. Morrison and others progressed the mutant situation in such a realistic, interesting way. The mutant situation had evolved. Things like mutant districts in cities and mutant-themed nightclubs and mutants becoming popular in culture...PROGRESS.

Then they used Wanda to just throw it all away and go right back to the old status quo.

No. Oh no.

They said they were going to the old status quo and then went to the other extreme. Quite a few mutants randomly popping up and walking around in the old Claremont status quo - now there's only established ones and a limited number. And they can't DO the status quo stories anymore, as X-Axis pointed out: (http://thexaxis.com/uncannyxmen/uncannyxmen489.htm)

Brubaker is trying to use the old device of having the villains endangering the good name of mutants. So something's at stake, if there's nothing to their silly prophecies. At any time in X-Men history until the last couple of years, this would have worked. But now, it doesn't work any more. The reputation of mutants? What mutants? What reputation? With the numbers this low, it's simply a non-issue.

Marvel tried to get rid of something that wasn't a problem and gave themselves BIG problems.

How much do you want to bet five years from now Wolverine will have forgotten his whole past again? Or that the Superhuman Registration Act will be completely phased out? Or Emma will be gone and Scott/Jean will be back together?

Yes, yes and yes.

Charles RB

09-23-2007, 01:05 PM

She. Is. Not. Going. Away.

Then there's no point to ending the marriage. Wow, Peter can now date other people - wait, no he can't, because then he'd have to break up with MJ who he's going out with. Maybe they'll tease it and maybe, just maybe, people will believe he actually will break up with the person who's his girlfriend in the films, cartoon, Ultimate comics and Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane. Maybe.

stillanerd

09-23-2007, 04:35 PM

No. Oh no.

They said they were going to the old status quo and then went to the other extreme. Quite a few mutants randomly popping up and walking around in the old Claremont status quo - now there's only established ones and a limited number. And they can't DO the status quo stories anymore, as X-Axis pointed out:

Marvel tried to get rid of something that wasn't a problem and gave themselves BIG problems.

Exactly. The whole concept behind the X-Men is "protecting a world that fears and hates them," and the basis for that hatred and fear was because they believed mutants would either rule, replace, or wipe them out. But if they're an endangered species, with only 198 or so at best, and barely able to replenish their numbers, then what reason do humans have to be afraid of them any more?

Which makes no logical sense, but I guess they lack the balls to go the other way.

And oddly enough, Rich Johnson also says that this won't make the past 20 years worth of Spider-Man comics irrelevant even though the events and people involved are "slightly different."

Now that's a good point. They're buggering their own Big Important Crossover here.

Here's what I pointed out over in Newsarama:

"...if the marriage is erased from existence rather than forgotten, then only Aunt May would have convinced Peter to unmask, which means she still would've gotten shot, but now Spidey can't choose between saving Aunt May and removing his marriage because the marriage will no longer exist for him to make such a choice, and therefore his Aunt May still dies, in theory. And if she's still alive because, as a result of Mary Jane not being there, Spidey never unmasked, and therefore Aunt May never got shot, and therefore Spidey never had to make the deal in the first place, then you create a paradox."

In addition, let's say Spidey saves his Aunt May from getting shot because Mary Jane isn't there for him to shove her out of the way. Then, once again, Spidey can't make the "devil's bargain" because Aunt May never got shot, so he never made the deal, and again, another paradox. But remember, it's only a "slight change" with "slightly different events."

PatrickG

09-23-2007, 05:59 PM

Exactly. The whole concept behind the X-Men is "protecting a world that fears and hates them," and the basis for that hatred and fear was because they believed mutants would either rule, replace, or wipe them out. But if they're an endangered species, with only 198 or so at best, and barely able to replenish their numbers, then what reason do humans have to be afraid of them any more?

And oddly enough, Rich Johnson also says that this won't make the past 20 years worth of Spider-Man comics irrelevant even though the events and people involved are "slightly different."

Here's what I pointed out over in Newsarama:

"...if the marriage is erased from existence rather than forgotten, then only Aunt May would have convinced Peter to unmask, which means she still would've gotten shot, but now Spidey can't choose between saving Aunt May and removing his marriage because the marriage will no longer exist for him to make such a choice, and therefore his Aunt May still dies, in theory. And if she's still alive because, as a result of Mary Jane not being there, Spidey never unmasked, and therefore Aunt May never got shot, and therefore Spidey never had to make the deal in the first place, then you create a paradox."

In addition, let's say Spidey saves his Aunt May from getting shot because Mary Jane isn't there for him to shove her out of the way. Then, once again, Spidey can't make the "devil's bargain" because Aunt May never got shot, so he never made the deal, and again, another paradox. But remember, it's only a "slight change" with "slightly different events."

I assume with this being a magical alteration to history, precision cause and effect need not apply.

The new history might omit MJ and have May beg Peter not to unmask.

Astonishing X-Fan

09-23-2007, 08:16 PM

(I do have a theory that they may publicly divorce just to make MJ not a target, hence she adopts the superheroine persona to become his crimefighting partner and lover.)

...

...I like that.

Seriously...I like that idea and I hope you're right.

I think it'd actually be pretty cool

MacQuarrie

09-23-2007, 10:29 PM

I'd have a lot more respect for Marvel if they just said "we decided to change things, here's the new status quo; deal with it" and did it without some convoluted explanation. If you're going to screw over continuity, have the guts to just do it, without torturing continuity even more trying to get there.

Just hit the reboot button and do it.

stillanerd

09-23-2007, 10:52 PM

I assume with this being a magical alteration to history, precision cause and effect need not apply.

The new history might omit MJ and have May beg Peter not to unmask.

Even if it is magical alteration to history, and especially if it's time travel, you can bet that readers will assume a cause and effect would still apply, especially if it's re-written that Aunt May convinces Peter NOT to unmask instead how it actually happened, since unmasking has to lead to Peter and family on the run leads to May getting shot leads to Peter forced to make a decision to choose between his Aunt's life and his marriage.

PatrickG

09-24-2007, 05:37 AM

Even if it is magical alteration to history, and especially if it's time travel, you can bet that readers will assume a cause and effect would still apply, especially if it's re-written that Aunt May convinces Peter NOT to unmask instead how it actually happened, since unmasking has to lead to Peter and family on the run leads to May getting shot leads to Peter forced to make a decision to choose between his Aunt's life and his marriage.

I don't think it's an "alteration" so much as Loki goes back and makes people do a bunch of things differently to reach a desired outcome.

MartinRedmond

09-24-2007, 07:05 AM

The good thing about it is that he can now finally date Gwen Stacy's daughter she had when she and Peter were both in college, since that daughter is now 18 and doesn't make Peter seem "old" at all.

MartinRedmond

09-24-2007, 07:06 AM

PatrickG

09-24-2007, 07:55 AM

The good thing about it is that he can now finally date Gwen Stacy's daughter she had when she and Peter were both in college from that guy who Peter killed except he came back from the dead, since that daughter is now 18 and doesn't make Peter seem "old" or "creepy" at all.

Y'Know...

If I could go back and re-do things...

Harry having a sister that Peter dates would have been GREAT.

I'm an only child but FAR too few comic book characters have siblings IMO.

And a female Osborn in Peter's circle would really amp up the conflict.

If Peter is the super-hero Hamlet, Harry is his Laertes. But there's no Ophelia.

(I suppose you can cast Gwen in that role but that doesn't work for me.)

MartinRedmond

09-24-2007, 08:13 AM

Peter wakes up one day and finds Mary Jane in bed with Aunt May. Marriage problems solved.

PatrickG

09-24-2007, 08:17 AM

Marvel tried to get rid of something that wasn't a problem and gave themselves BIG problems.

I dunno. I think mutants needed downsizing. People don't hate them for "replacing" humanity IMO. People hate them the same way they hate people for their skin color or sexual orientation. Ie. "You're different than me. God hates you!"

However...

This has all been interesting to watch because when I was 16 or so, I came up with my take on X-Men.

And among my ideas were Emma and Cable in the X-Men (both of which we've seen a fair amount of since). I thought of Emma and Scott as a couple but decided on Emma and Hank, who I thought was a rather fun pair. The professor and the débutante. Both kindof aristocratic and old world. Beauty and the beast (although -- which is which?).

I also had the idea of secondary mutations in there. I remember I had drawn up sketches of Beast and Iceman. A new take on Angel. A new Gambit costume. Rogue with new powers.

I think there was a Storm/FORGE wedding in there.

My big idea for paring down mutants, however, was Forge's technology getting seized by the government (imminent domain, BEE-YOTCHES!) and being use by an international consortium of diplomats. Doctor Doom was brought on as an expert and he helped erect these stations around the world that generated mutant inhibiting fields. (There are some stores spiraling out of this, including an FF story where Doom takes advantage of some custom modifications on a tower.)

But the end result was NO mutants.

However, the X-Men basically reforms as people who WANT to be different. Working together with Forge, they receive special belts that block the anti-mutant field effects and restore use of their mutations.

The idea was that there would be twelve X-Men, at first operating more as renegade super-heroes... But that the power restoring tech would creep onto the black market and eventually you'd have several thousand evil mutants and only 12 good ones. Which creates a lot of issues for mutants as they're basically ALL getting a bad name.

And many familiar mutants, some continuing to work with the X-Men, don't want to be mutants again. And you see prejudice take the form of ex-mutants forming gangs to beat up and harass those who have artificially restored their powers.

In the end, well... You'd get more and more of your favorites back. But the less driven, less interesting characters would be put out to pasture or given new spins as FORMER mutants, something I haven't seen a lot of here.

But I always wondered how people would react to the idea and so the stories they're doing now are interesting for me to follow due to the similarities.

PatrickG

09-24-2007, 08:20 AM

Peter wakes up one day and finds Mary Jane in bed with Aunt May. Marriage problems solved.

Oh! Oh!

Mary Jane gets sucked into a time vortex and lands in the past. She is finally won over by a man named Ben Parker and... Stop me if you've heard this...

Anyway, the whole thing ends with Ma(r)y (Jane) talking about how she found a greater love with Ben Parker than she ever had with Peter... and Peter giving her a creepy kiss as they realize that they must part ways.

However... uhm... Mary Jane from a parallel universe shows up as Jackpot.

Yeah. :P

KevinTBrown

09-24-2007, 08:27 AM

Peter wakes up one day and finds Mary Jane in bed with Aunt May. Marriage problems solved.

Probably more long the lines of Peter waking up in bed with Gwen next to him and saying: "Honey, you won't believe the dream I just had."

the4thpip

09-24-2007, 08:36 AM

Maybe Jackpot is really Red Sonja?

MartinRedmond

09-24-2007, 08:59 AM

Oh! Oh!
Mary Jane gets sucked into a time vortex and lands in the past. She is finally won over by a man named Ben Parker and... Stop me if you've heard this...

Anyway, the whole thing ends with Ma(r)y (Jane) talking about how she found a greater love with Ben Parker than she ever had with Peter... and Peter giving her a creepy kiss as they realize that they must part ways.

Yeah. :P

God I love it! The Ma(r)y Jane (Parker) Saga. So many clues were under the readers noses all along. It will be the biggest reveal ever. It will also appeal to that choice fanbase that's been wanting to see Pete bone May so badly for years.

Jack Zodiac

09-24-2007, 09:09 AM

Probably more long the lines of Peter waking up in bed with Gwen next to him and saying: "Honey, you won't believe the dream I just had."

And then he goes to the bathroom and Patrick Duffy's in his shower! :eek:

PatrickG

09-24-2007, 09:45 AM

And then he goes to the bathroom and Patrick Duffy's in his shower! :eek:

Ah... But then he goes back to bed wakes up Bob Newhart in the commotion.

KevinTBrown

09-24-2007, 09:46 AM

Ah... But then he goes back to bed wakes up Bob Newhart in the commotion.

Someone caught the connection.

;)

PatrickG

09-24-2007, 10:12 AM

Someone caught the connection.

;)

And then we pan out to Franklin Richards' big blue ball... and pan further out to see aliens playing jacks with universes... and discover it's all the fantasy of an autistic child right before the audience gets whacked and Jerry Seinfeld goes to prison.

JKCarrier

09-24-2007, 11:34 AM

I don't think it's an "alteration" so much as Loki goes back and makes people do a bunch of things differently to reach a desired outcome.

Which begs the question, if Loki can do stuff like that, why doesn't he go back and prevent Don Blake from ever finding the hammer of Thor, or prevent himself from accidentally causing the Avengers to be formed, or any number of things that would make his life easier...

MartinRedmond

09-24-2007, 12:12 PM

JK Carrier, don't let your negative attitude get in the way of a good half baked story. >:(

The Xenos

09-24-2007, 12:37 PM

And then we pan out to Franklin Richards' big blue ball... and pan further out to see aliens playing jacks with universes... and discover it's all the fantasy of an autistic child right before the audience gets whacked and Jerry Seinfeld goes to prison.

And then... wait.. no... I don't see how to beat the dead horse out some more. :D

PatrickG

09-24-2007, 01:59 PM

Which begs the question, if Loki can do stuff like that, why doesn't he go back and prevent Don Blake from ever finding the hammer of Thor, or prevent himself from accidentally causing the Avengers to be formed, or any number of things that would make his life easier...

Chaos god.

He can only make things more gutwrenching and complicated, even for himself.

That's why there's got to be a catch or proviso if he saves May.

I'm not sure it's something he can even help or control.

(I realize this goes beyond established myth... But then again a FLYING Thor with LIGHTNING powers who can transform into a human or transfer his powers with the hammer is also against established myth.)

It really could be a scenario like this:

Loki: "Hey, Spidey. I can change things but only if I screw things up even more. I'd use these powers to rid myself of Thor but they DON'T bring happiness. I know I'd wind up even more miserable. But since I kindof owe you a favor, howabout this: I can save May's life but you lose your true love and end up miserable."

Spidey: "Miserable!? I never met a form of suffering and self-loathing I didn't crave from the depths of my emo soul! But wait... Let me check with my wife. Oh. Who am I kidding? I can't do this!"

MJ: "No... Peter! I cannot bare to see you suffer! But I cannot bear to see your geriatric aunt be denied the opportunity to be more geriatric! Any decision you make will tarnish my idealized perception of you. That is why I have drugged your coffee and will take the deal myself, forsaking all my happiness to allow you new depths of suffering!"

Spidey: "That's my gal! Feeling... groggy..."

MJ: "Please, Loki, make me suffer so that my husband can suffer as he so craves without making an impossible decision that would pit his great masochism and self-loathing against his impossible sense of responsibility."

Loki: "Done. Oh. Crap. My magic can only make people miserable. And you people love suffering and degradation! You feast on scorn and hunger for despair! Therefore... It has backfired! May will live and Peter Parker and Mary Jane's love will be forever void, past and present. But because you crazy kids love misery so much, the spell will make you happy. Congratulations, Mary Jane. You just got a fraction of my chaos powers and as JACKPOT, you and Spider-man can be happy together... But never as Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson! Oh noes! How... chaotic! Have fun, kids, I'm off to noogie my annoying jock brother!"

JKCarrier

09-24-2007, 03:22 PM

Chaos god.

He can only make things more gutwrenching and complicated, even for himself.

Gotcha. Sort of like how Roger Rabbit can only escape from handcuffs when it's funny. :D

the4thpip

09-25-2007, 02:39 AM

Draconomicon

09-25-2007, 04:11 AM

Chaos god.

He can only make things more gutwrenching and complicated, even for himself.

That's why there's got to be a catch or proviso if he saves May.

I'm not sure it's something he can even help or control.

(I realize this goes beyond established myth... But then again a FLYING Thor with LIGHTNING powers who can transform into a human or transfer his powers with the hammer is also against established myth.)

It really could be a scenario like this:

Loki: "Hey, Spidey. I can change things but only if I screw things up even more. I'd use these powers to rid myself of Thor but they DON'T bring happiness. I know I'd wind up even more miserable. But since I kindof owe you a favor, howabout this: I can save May's life but you lose your true love and end up miserable."

Spidey: "Miserable!? I never met a form of suffering and self-loathing I didn't crave from the depths of my emo soul! But wait... Let me check with my wife. Oh. Who am I kidding? I can't do this!"

MJ: "No... Peter! I cannot bare to see you suffer! But I cannot bear to see your geriatric aunt be denied the opportunity to be more geriatric! Any decision you make will tarnish my idealized perception of you. That is why I have drugged your coffee and will take the deal myself, forsaking all my happiness to allow you new depths of suffering!"

Spidey: "That's my gal! Feeling... groggy..."

MJ: "Please, Loki, make me suffer so that my husband can suffer as he so craves without making an impossible decision that would pit his great masochism and self-loathing against his impossible sense of responsibility."

Loki: "Done. Oh. Crap. My magic can only make people miserable. And you people love suffering and degradation! You feast on scorn and hunger for despair! Therefore... It has backfired! May will live and Peter Parker and Mary Jane's love will be forever void, past and present. But because you crazy kids love misery so much, the spell will make you happy. Congratulations, Mary Jane. You just got a fraction of my chaos powers and as JACKPOT, you and Spider-man can be happy together... But never as Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson! Oh noes! How... chaotic! Have fun, kids, I'm off to noogie my annoying jock brother!"

BWAHAHAHAAHAHAH
That is the most awesome thing I read all day.