How does WWH compare to other past events?

[K Von Doom]

How does World War Hulk compare to other major Marvel events such as Inferno, Atlantis Attacks, Infinity Gauntlet, Secret Wars, Operation: Galactic Storm, House of M, Civil War, Maximum Carnage, Annihilation... etc? Is it sub-standard? Average? Awesome?

[DaeJi]

It's not pathetic; I mean, Incredible Hulk and the main mini are scrapping the bottom, but a lot of ties (especially Heroes for Hire and WWH: X-Men) have been quite good. I'm going with sub standard.

[Kefky]

It's pretty good, but not great.

[Wild Card13]

I think it will be a rather forgettable event compared to the big guns that supported it. We all know Disassembled was a clusterf*ck, but the storyline was dubbed "Chaos", after all. I personally enjoyed House of M and its fallout, and I absolutely loved Civil War. It's perhaps so not-special because it won't have many wide-reaching side effects for the rest of the MU. Civil War birthed the Initiative, House of M caused Decimation, and Annihilation has turned cosmic Marvel into the wild west, but WWH isn't really going to be doing anything of the sort.

If it had a bit more scale and vision, like Messiah CompleX, it might be more notable. But in a few decades, this will be remembered as the era of Civil War and Ultimates 2.

[XPac]

There are PLENTY of events that are FAR worse. Secret Wars 2, Atlantis Attacks, the Evolutionary War, Infinity Cruasade, etc.

Modern events are written far better than a lot of the past stuff we've gotten. Even the more mediocre ones vastly outshine a lot of the past company wide cross overs we've seen.

[DaeJi]

There are PLENTY of events that are FAR worse. Secret Wars 2, Atlantis Attacks, the Evolutionary War, Infinity Cruasade, etc.

Modern events are written far better than a lot of the past stuff we've gotten. Even the more mediocre ones vastly outshine a lot of the past company wide cross overs we've seen.

I think comparing WWH to more current ends actually makes it come off looking worse.

[XPac]

I think comparing WWH to more current ends actually makes it come off looking worse.

Like I said... there are PLENTY of events far worse.

[gravling]

i voted 'quite pathetic' although i'd have liked an even lower category to vote.

it's just been a predictable, repetitive, two-dimensional, nonsensical (hulk beat blackbolt? bullsh*it) and overall underwhelming and pointless 'event' where basically. . . there won't really be any post-event ramifications, besides for the hulk.

you look at disassembled: the avengers split up and abandoned teh mansion, hawkeye, the vision and antman were killed.

house of m: no more mutants. enough said.

civil war: stark finally sells out, cap is killed, the initiative is set up, a group of core avengers go underground - lots happening, lots of action. . .

world war hulk has been: hulk and his chums beat up this guy, and this guy, and this guy. . . . (on into infinity) where's the bloody story, pak?

seriously, bring on the motherf*cking skrulls!

and get bendis back on the 'events'

[Magneto Rocks]

Average. About the same as Disassembled, a little worse than house of m, a LOT worse than civil war.

[Rahul]

I'll only give my verdict after the 5th issue....

[Archmage]

I'll only give my verdict after the 5th issue....



Civil War was the worst storyline I ever read. when someone like Tony (who consistently breaks the law) is treated with honor and someone like Steve (who represents the true hero, one who doesn't compromise morally to accomplish his vision) is treated as a traitor, then comics becomes too real for me. If I wanted a dose of real politics, I can get that by watching the political squabbling in congress.

[Magneto Rocks]

Civil War was the worst storyline I ever read.

Clearly you need to read a lot more comics.

I'd advise starting with "Amazons Attack!"

[Archmage]

Clearly you need to read a lot more comics.

I'd advise starting with "Amazons Attack!"



no.. maybe you should start with better standards. I don't go reading Archies or yugi-oh and claim they are "comics". Please.

[StoneGold]

It's Infinity Gauntlet #4 spread out over a half dozen or so issues. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing - #4 was by far the best issue of IG. Really, the other six issues were just filler so that you could stage #4, and set up Adam Warlock as the greatest thing since sliced vibranium.

Although I really don't understand certain points of view like Gravlings, specifically in Hulk being able to beat everyone up. It's been specifically stated that Hulk is powered up beyond anywhere he's been powered up before. It's the general equivalent of Thanos with the Gauntlet. This isn't Hulk, this is mega-uber-Hulk. Powered up far beyond normal Hulk levels, with intelligence to match. If you can't accept a character specifically stated to have been powered up far beyond normal defeating characters who are fighting at their normal level... maybe you shouldn't be reading fiction.

[Badfish40oz]

it's just been a predictable, repetitive, two-dimensional, nonsensical (hulk beat blackbolt? bullsh*it)

Once again, most of WWH criticisms = "waaaaa, my character lost, waaaa."

Though I probably wouldn't want it any other way. :D

[Magneto Rocks]

Once again, most of WWH criticisms = "waaaaa, my character lost, waaaa."

Though I probably wouldn't want it any other way. :D

Which is ironic considering Hulk has yet to beat a legitimate REALLY heavy hitter- Iron Man, Doctor Strange, Black Bolt, Juggernaut without an absolutely enormous "BUT..." hanging in there to leave considerable doubt.

And I love how you ignore legitimate criticisms of plotting, charactrization, structure, style, message, and the story itself in favour of claiming everyone just dislikes that Hulk is winning.

[Kevinroc]

Which is ironic considering Hulk has yet to beat a legitimate REALLY heavy hitter- Iron Man, Doctor Strange, Black Bolt, Juggernaut without an absolutely enormous "BUT..." hanging in there to leave considerable doubt.

And I love how you ignore legitimate criticisms of plotting, charactrization, structure, style, message, and the story itself in favour of claiming everyone just dislikes that Hulk is winning.

Anyone that likes the characterization of Civil War but doesn't like the characterization in WWH clearly needs to read some more comics. ;)

[Magneto Rocks]

Anyone that likes the characterization of Civil War but doesn't like the characterization in WWH clearly needs to read some more comics. ;)

I'll take Iron Man making a cyborg of Thor (out of character) over Strangedeicding "Well, need to deal with Hulk, better use a giant intergalactic demon which could destroy existence" (WILDLY, TOTALLY, COMPLETELY out of character) anyway. And while I'm not that happy with Millar's reed, he certainly kicks the ass of Pak's Reed.

In the end, Civil War dealt with more characters and made an attempt to analyse them. The only characters who have been looked at it in World War Hulk with anything remotely resemblung depth are Iron Man and Sentry. And Sentry was done badly. Even Hulk hasn't been in the main mini, not really.

[jigrig]

Which is ironic considering Hulk has yet to beat a legitimate REALLY heavy hitter- Iron Man, Doctor Strange, Black Bolt, Juggernaut without an absolutely enormous "BUT..." hanging in there to leave considerable doubt.

And I love how you ignore legitimate criticisms of plotting, charactrization, structure, style, message, and the story itself in favour of claiming everyone just dislikes that Hulk is winning.

That is so stinking lame, there are no BUTS about it, Hulk beat them, because either Iron-mans nano's didnt work or werent the real thing is as irrelevent as if a gun I bought to a fist fight misfired & I got My ass handed to Me.
Black Bolt, ass kicked, in all cases hulk achieved what He set out to & His opponents failed, all legit WINS!
If Sentry beats Hulk next issue I wont like it but I aint gonna waste My time cryin on this board.

[Magneto Rocks]

That is so stinking lame, there are no BUTS about it, Hulk beat them, because either Iron-mans nano's didnt work or werent the real thing is as irrelevent as if a gun I bought to a fist fight misfired & I got My ass handed to Me.
Black Bolt, ass kicked, in all cases hulk achieved what He set out to & His opponents failed, all legit WINS!.

Ummm... no. They're really not. In fact Marvel went out of their way to make sure they w3eren't.

Sure, he won the fight, no one will dispute that. Whether he won a fair, equal fight and took the best they could dish is ABSOLUTELY up for debate. Had they been fair fights without outside factors, would Hulk have won? God alone knows. Ergo.... there's a giant BUT for each fight.

[Camron Amaya]

Thor would paint all creation with the Hulk's corpse.


*Starts it again*

[Archmage]

Ummm... no. They're really not. In fact Marvel went out of their way to make sure they w3eren't.

Sure, he won the fight, no one will dispute that. Whether he won a fair, equal fight and took the best they could dish is ABSOLUTELY up for debate. Had they been fair fights without outside factors, would Hulk have won? God alone knows. Ergo.... there's a giant BUT for each fight.



The fight with Iron Man did not have a giant BUT. What, is Iron man known to carry around giant darts? No, he is known to kick ass with his armor. Because Iron man didn't have the dart, he meant that he didn't give his all? He wore the best armor he could, and he lost. So I guess the fight with Iron man and Thor was a big but too since he didn't get to use the dart against Thor either.

Okay, spiderman didn't bring the ultimate nullifier to the fight with Hulk so his defeat was a BIG BUT. Wait, does Spiderman usually carry the Ultimate nullifier? No... but if he did, he would have won.

The human torch would have won if he had gone to Galactus and regained his super-uber powers. But oh wait, he didn't, so he lost with a big BUT.

For Strange, that was a but, for Black bolt, not so much since we don't know what happened. It sounded like a fair fight, or do you know more than the rest of us?

[Archmage]

Thor would paint all creation with the Hulk's corpse.


*Starts it again*




me pointing the ultimate nullifier against the hammer of thor and nullifying it... oh no, thor, no more hammer time for you :D

[Magneto Rocks]

The fight with Iron Man did not have a giant BUT. What, is Iron man known to carry around giant darts? No, he is known to kick ass with his armor. Because Iron man didn't have the dart, he meant that he didn't give his all? He wore the best armor he could, and he lost. So I guess the fight with Iron man and Thor was a big but too since he didn't get to use the dart against Thor either.

There's a colossal difference. Iron Man had a strtaegy. It depended completely on the dart, whci hwas sabotaged. Ergo, had it not been for an outside force, it is possible Iron Man might have won.

Okay, spiderman didn't bring the ultimate nullifier to the fight with Hulk so his defeat was a BIG BUT. Wait, does Spiderman usually carry the Ultimate nullifier? No... but if he did, he would have won.

It's also a totally different situation. In this case, the claim has always been that Iron Man could beat Hulk with prep time. He had prep time, and a plan to beat Hulk which was sabotaged by an outside force. Had it not been for that force, would he have won? Quite possibly. The problem is, there is a legitimate HUUUUGE "BUT" over this, but that looks bad for Hulk so you're using totally inaccurate inalogies to try to make a flawed point. Here';s a better analogy, according to you if Hulk is not even slightly angry and Iron Man beats the crap out of him, it proves absolutely that Iron Man is better.

For Strange, that was a but, for Black bolt, not so much since we don't know what happened. It sounded like a fair fight, or do you know more than the rest of us?

Marvel aren't saying whether or not he used his powers to their fullest. That right there is a colossal but.

[Omega Alpha]

Worse than Civil War, better than House of M and Disassembled.

[Archmage]

so you're using totally inaccurate inalogies to try to make a flawed point. Here';s a better analogy, according to you if Hulk is not even slightly angry and Iron Man beats the crap out of him, it proves absolutely that Iron Man is better.




Then you're wrong my friend. I never considered that Iron man needs anything but his armor to fight with hulk. And I'm not even a fan of Iron man.
So, a tried and true fan of Tony actually thinks that iron man needs anything but his armor? My analogy was perfect if you think that Iron man doesn't need prep time and only needs his armor. If you think he requires it, then obviously, then it is a big but. The question is, how many people actually think that Iron man needs prep time? I notice in the few issues I've read of IM, he usually fights Mandarin, Fin Fang Foom and other assorted enemies without any prep time...he just jumps in with his kickass armor and beats them down. No? Am I wrong?

[thronzeblast]

Ummm... no. They're really not. In fact Marvel went out of their way to make sure they w3eren't.

Sure, he won the fight, no one will dispute that. Whether he won a fair, equal fight and took the best they could dish is ABSOLUTELY up for debate. Had they been fair fights without outside factors, would Hulk have won? God alone knows. Ergo.... there's a giant BUT for each fight.



It's pretty clear that even stark knew he could not take the hulk down as he employed the use of the hulk buster armor and the nanobot's.

[ivesaidway2much]

Thor would paint all creation with the Hulk's corpse.


*Starts it again*Meh, and the Hulk's atomized corpse would still be able to sucessfully carry a comic book.

[Grimm]

Iron Man got destroyed on panel. The dart thing isn't even a part of the main WWH series, it's a sub plot of another book. If it was that important it would have been mentioned in the main series. You know, like how the chunk of the moon was thrown up by BB in the series?

Hulk beat down BB, again no question mark here. It may well have been PIS but who gives a crap? PIS is part of fiction. It is probably because too many whiners would over analyse the fight had it taken place on panel. So thank you guys for robbing us of that. :p

Strange was weak, I must admit. Utterly horrible writing. Although I did love how Hulk broke his hands. I'm just holding onto hope Strange is a skrull which is why Pak did what he did...

After my initial disappointment, which really only happened because the first issue was well written, I'd have to say WWH is what it is. A decent smashfest, it's been average at best. WWH:X-Men was just so much better.

[Archmage]

yep... the x-men tie-in was the best of the wwh issues. It showed that hulk was reasonable enough to leave after metal girl or whatever her name began bawling like a baby. He probably ran from her more than anything else.

[Kevinroc]

Once again, most of WWH criticisms = "waaaaa, my character lost, waaaa."

Though I probably wouldn't want it any other way. :D

I was telling people as far back as Planet Hulk that it would be lame if, after 14 or so issues of Hulk saying "I'm gonna go back and kick their asses", he didn't go back and kick their asses.

[DaeJi]

I was telling people as far back as Planet Hulk that it would be lame if, after 14 or so issues of Hulk saying "I'm gonna go back and kick their asses", he didn't go back and kick their asses.

The fights have actually been the high point of the series... well, a lot of the fights. A lot of the problems the series is struggling with can be summed up into two categories: characterization and intent. A lot of characters have been written very badly and the PIS in WWH is disturbing, and Pak seems to be writing everyone as monsters, Hulk/Warbound and heroes alike.

[Clea]

There are PLENTY of events that are FAR worse. Secret Wars 2, Atlantis Attacks, the Evolutionary War, Infinity Cruasade, etc.

Modern events are written far better than a lot of the past stuff we've gotten. Even the more mediocre ones vastly outshine a lot of the past company wide cross overs we've seen.

I agree. The modern events do a much better job of making the action in the crossovers seem more logical. Also, the writers are doing a very good job of dealing with the consequences of these events and working them into the regular storylines.

[Kevinroc]

The fights have actually been the high point of the series... well, a lot of the fights. A lot of the problems the series is struggling with can be summed up into two categories: characterization and intent. A lot of characters have been written very badly and the PIS in WWH is disturbing, and Pak seems to be writing everyone as monsters, Hulk/Warbound and heroes alike.

A number of people have made the argument that the heroes of Earth were behaving rather villainously before this series began. Pak isn't rocking the boat. ;)

[DaeJi]

A number of people have made the argument that the heroes of Earth were behaving rather villainously before this series began. Pak isn't rocking the boat. ;)

And a number of people have been saying that the heroes weren't acting villainous but were trying to make the best of a bad situation. Either way there's a difference between writing a character like a jerk and writing them like a monster. Also, Ironman, the main character people love to dump on for Civil War, actually got the best showing in this series by far, and is probably going to come out of it looking the best.

[Archmage]

And a number of people have been saying that the heroes weren't acting villainous but were trying to make the best of a bad situation. Either way there's a difference between writing a character like a jerk and writing them like a monster. Also, Ironman, the main character people love to dump on for Civil War, actually got the best showing in this series by far, and is probably going to come out of it looking the best.



IMO, I thought Cap had the best showing. He showed guts in not choosing to walk down the slippery path of registration just because the "powers" demanded he follow that path.
And he paid for it with his life.
Spiderman would be second since once he realized that Tony was crazy enough to imprison the heroes in the negative zone, he decided "enough was enough".
third would be the thing... he opted out of the whole mess and moved to australia, was it? Can't remember.

Tony, he came out smelling like roses because he was firmly entrenched in politics and the saying about "strange bedfellows in politics" saved his life. Not his reputation, mind you, just his life. Thor hates his guts for cloning him and Spiderman hates his guts... his aunt may in the hospital was because he decided to trust the wrong man and reveal his secret identity. What did it get him? One more loved one dead.

[XPac]

Either way there's a difference between writing a character like a jerk and writing them like a monster.

I'd argue mind controlling someone into commiting a terrorist bombing on US soil for the sake of getting public support falls closer to the monster category than the jerk one.

Stark talking to Thor is him being a jerk. Stark basically murdering people at least in the eyes of many probably is a bit more severe than simply acting like a jerk.

[Trolt]

I'd argue mind controlling someone into commiting a terrorist bombing on US soil for the sake of getting public support falls closer to the monster category than the jerk one.

Stark talking to Thor is him being a jerk. Stark basically murdering people at least in the eyes of many probably is a bit more severe than simply acting like a jerk.

Cant wait for that to be ret-conned. The whole civil war frontline was so one-sided it wasn't fun to read.

[Alan2099]

I agree. The modern events do a much better job of making the action in the crossovers seem more logical.
Did you even read Civil War?

Oh. Wait. You said "action," not "plot". Okay, I can give you that.

[1WEBHEAD]

World War Hulk started out awesome but slowly but surely has slumped down to average for me.

Compared to the sheer awesomeness that was Planet Hulk, WWH is nothing more than a cheap summer action moive that looked badass in the previews you saw on tv but turned out totally ridiculous, cliqued, and predictable in the end.

It could have been as epic as Planet Hulk was but it wasn't.

I do like the Renegades and I loved Gage's X-men mini but as for WWH #3 and #4 and all of the other tie-ins, you can color me underwhelmed.

AVERAGE

And please, let's not compare this to Annihilation or Conquest because that's totally unfair for WWH. It's like comparing a brain dead monkey to Albert Einstein.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Average, it started out as awesome but then we pretty much get the same thing in each issue.

Hulk and the Warbound beats up a lot of people. Nothing about why the ship blew up or anything.

[Karl H]

Its pretty but its become staid really quickly.

[GreenHornet]

Bewteen WWH and Thor #3 IronDrunk is running out of suits that work.

[cable guy]

Awesome story so far.

[Badfish40oz]

Didn't that Scorpion girl use the nanobites on Hulk in the last issue of IH?

They didn't work.

[ivesaidway2much]

Did you even read Civil War?

Oh. Wait. You said "action," not "plot". Okay, I can give you that.Not even the "action". During Civil War it seemed like almost everyone besides the main plot characters forgot they had abilities that they could use to do more than just punch and kick during a fight.

[Magneto Rocks]

Not even the "action". During Civil War it seemed like almost everyone besides the main plot characters forgot they had abilities that they could use to do more than just punch and kick during a fight.

Civil War actually had MEANING behind the action. No amount of beautifully drawn Jr Jr pictures of utterly mindless, boring and repetitive battles can live up to one half page spread of Tony punching Cap once.

[ivesaidway2much]

Civil War actually had MEANING behind the action. No amount of beautifully drawn Jr Jr pictures of utterly mindless, boring and repetitive battles can live up to one half page spread of Tony punching Cap once.How are the battles repetitive in WWH? I can't think of very many characters that used the same attack against the Hulk or the Warbound.

[Question_Authority]

Average. The tactics and plans employed by the various members of the Illuminati border on moronic. But thats Pak's fault; he's the one writing this crossover event. :(

[Magneto Rocks]

How are the battles repetitive in WWH? I can't think of very many characters that used the same attack against the Hulk or the Warbound.

Let me summarise every single fight in World War Hulk.

Someone beats up Hulk for a while till he gets real mad and beats them back.

That is all. Even Doctor Freaking Strange came down to a dull as hell slugfest.

[Siddon]

WWH - I would say pretty low, it hasn't been that good or that bad if I ranked them I would go

1. Age of Apocaylpse
2. Civil War
3. Acts of Vengence
4. DA
5. Onslaught
6. House of M
7. Annhilation series
8. Infinity series
9. World War Hulk
10. Secret series
11. Zero Tolerance

The bottom


Crossing
Atlantis Attacks
Maximum Security
Heros Reborn

[Vulgar]

I'd call it average. I loved the beginning and have no problem with Hulk kicking the crap out of pretty much everyone. WWH had some great parts to it like Tony owning up to what he did and facing the Hulk alone ,but To me it just seems drawn out now. I'd preffered that the Hulk gathering the illuminati was done in one issue with the full fights shown in the characters own series. That being said I still have hope that the final issue is just the best thing ever. If the series ends with Sentry just beating the hulk up and thats it or no explanation about the ship exploding then I'm going to bump it down to sub par.

[ivesaidway2much]

Let me summarise every single fight in World War Hulk.

Someone beats up Hulk for a while till he gets real mad and beats them back.

That is all. Even Doctor Freaking Strange came down to a dull as hell slugfest.The Black Bolt, Avengers, Fantastic Six, and Dr. Strange fights didn't go down like that. Even in the army fight the only reason he was getting beat up is because he was busy chatting with Dr. Strange, not because he needed to get "real mad". What you're describing is WWH: X-men, which had tons and tons of that, but people still seemed to enjoy. And nearly every battle in Civil War was a slugfest, but you seemed to love it.

But let's say for arguments sake you are 100% correct. Are you criticizing the series because everyone used their powers against the Hulk and the Hulk in turn used his? Do you roll your eyes whenever Spider-man uses his webbing to win a fight. Will you criticize JMS when Thor uses his hammer in a fight. Or the next guy to write Juggernaut using his unstoppability.

[Alan2099]

Civil War actually had MEANING behind the action. No amount of beautifully drawn Jr Jr pictures of utterly mindless, boring and repetitive battles can live up to one half page spread of Tony punching Cap once.
And the "meaning" made absolutley no sense give the characters and setting it was aplied to.

"Oh, a supervillian killed people. Let's start locking up superheroes and forget the villians. What? Captain America doesn't like that? Kill him. hey! It's Ironman. Guess what? All these years he's been planing to use Thor as a weapon! You know who Spider-man has always tried to kep his secret identiy? Turns out all it takes is a pep talk and he's out there showing off his face to everybody!"

If you think THAT makes more sense than "Hulk gets mad, beats people that betrayd him," then there isn't any reason for me to both talking with you.

[Magneto Rocks]

The Black Bolt,

Hulk was being beaten, Hulk returns for no good reason other than that he's really really strong. Works with what I said.

Avengers,

You're right, there they just skipped the "Hulk is ever losing" stage.

Fantastic Six,

Hulk was "losing" to their most powerful attacks, then came back and beat them cos he's really really strong. Fits into the formula exactly. At the start Hulk isn't winning for a little. Then he wins. Cos he's strong, see?

and Dr. Strange fights didn't go down like that.

Doctor Strange fight went exactly like that.

Even in the army fight the only reason he was getting beat up is because he was busy chatting with Dr. Strange, not because he needed to get "real mad".

Still follows the formula. Hulk isn't winning for a little. Then he wins cos he's really strong.

What you're describing is WWH: X-men, which had tons and tons of that, but people still seemed to enjoy. And nearly every battle in Civil War was a slugfest, but you seemed to love it.

No, WWH X-Men had less repetitive and boring slugfests. Worse art though. And Civil War battles had a damn sight more meaning than these ones behind them- the battles were irrelevant, ti was the depth behind them. Only trobule is, the battles were *still* done better there.

Are you criticizing the series because everyone used their powers against the Hulk and the Hulk in turn used his? Do you roll your eyes whenever Spider-man uses his webbing to win a fight. Will you criticize JMS when Thor uses his hammer in a fight. Or the next guy to write Juggernaut using his unstoppability.

Not at all.

However if I read a Spider-Man story which consisted of 6 villains approaching Hulk in their turn, he initially dodging their attack and then shooting webbing into their eyes to beat them, again and again and again, and there was basically no depth behind it, damn right I'd criticize it.

Alan we've had this arugment a dozen times (None for a while though_ so I'm not going to go into it again but suffice to say yes, I think watching Cap and Iron Man battle over a heated issue makes for much better emotional charge than watching... well, any of the middling-poor fights we've seen in WWH so far. It's pretty sad when an Arachne/Ms Marvel fight seems more emotional and has more resonance than Hulk beating his cousin into unconsciousness.

[ivesaidway2much]

Hulk was being beaten, Hulk returns for no good reason other than that he's really really strong. Works with what I said.The Hulk got hit once. That's a pretty loose definition of "someone beats up the Hulk for a while". So the story would have somehow been better if he beat Black Bolt without being touched?

Hulk was "losing" to their most powerful attacks, then came back and beat them cos he's really really strong. Fits into the formula exactly. At the start Hulk isn't winning for a little. Then he wins. Cos he's strong, see?So you're problem is that the Hulk is strong, and he wins fights with his strength? And when was the Hulk "losing"? When Storm threw some wind at him? When he wasn't affected by Torch and Storm lighting and fire blast. In the seconds before he knocked the Thing on his butt? Or the seconds before he crushed Reed's hand?



Doctor Strange fight went exactly like that.When he tricked Strange and crushed his hands or when Strange decided to stop fighting?



Still follows the formula. Hulk isn't winning for a little. Then he wins cos he's really strong.But the why and the how change. The Hulk isn't winning because he's doing something else and not paying attention to the foes outside his head. He's busy beating the foe inside his head. Doesn't that break the formula with there being two fights at once? Or is that another repetitive part about the series?

I'm still not sure what your problem with the fights is. It seems that you would have enjoyed the series more if the Hulk just walked through Marvel's heroes without being touched. Because him getting fired at once or occasionally getting hit a couple of times really seemed to bother you. I guess you must be a huge Hulk fan after all.


Not at all.

However if I read a Spider-Man story which consisted of 6 villains approaching Hulk in their turn, he initially dodging their attack and then shooting webbing into their eyes to beat them, again and again and again, and there was basically no depth behind it, damn right I'd criticize it.But the Hulk hasn't used the same attack to beat his enemies. He dropped a building on Tony. He grabbed She-hulk's head and threw her around. One-punched Ares and Samson. Called in allies to defeat the rest of the Avengers. Beat the crap out of Reed and Strange and also crushed their hands. Outlasted Storm and Torch. Threw some tanks around. Thunderclapped some soldiers. Threw Ross out of a helicopter. And suplexed another one. So I'm still left wondering why you're criticizing the fights in WWH. I can't see a consistent reason. It seems like you have a problem with Hulk using his powers to win a fight, but not when other characters use theirs. Because what you're describing someone getting hit and then winning a fight would probably fit about 90-95% of all comic book fights.

[Magneto Rocks]

The Hulk got hit once. That's a pretty loose definition of "someone beats up the Hulk for a while". So the story would have somehow been better if he beat Black Bolt without being touched?

The story might have been better if we saw any fight that broke the pattern.

So you're problem is that the Hulk is strong, and he wins fights with his strength?

No, my problem is that there's no real twist to any fight beyond "Hulk is really strong!!!!" and they're repetitive and dull.

And when was the Hulk "losing"? When Storm threw some wind at him? When he wasn't affected by Torch and Storm lighting and fire blast. In the seconds before he knocked the Thing on his butt? Or the seconds before he crushed Reed's hand?

As you'll note, I amended it. We see Hulk take the ebst attack his foe can throw at him, then get up, unhurt for no reason except that he's really strong, then beat them up. See it with Black Bolt, see it with Iron Man, see it with Torch/Storm, see it with Reed, see it with Strange, see it with army. How about some variety? How about a fight where both sides are getting blows in equally early on? How about Hulk using- SHOCK- his *brains* to win. How about there being a TWIST which lets Hulk win? How about there being a SURPRISE? How about anuy of that planning pre-fight playing off?How about it going any way other than [i]the same damn way every single time?[i]

When he tricked Strange and crushed his hands or when Strange decided to stop fighting.

That wasn't a fight, I was referring more to when Zom beat him up for a while then Hulk beat him up for a while.

But the why and the how change. The Hulk isn't winning because he's doing something else and not paying attention to the foes outside his head.

No, that basically happens once, and doesn't happen with Black Bolt, with Tony, with the Fantastic Six, or with Zzztrange. And even there, the humorous part is that both interactions are handled the same way. The formula works as usual for the army, and then works to a degree again for the Strange confrontation in his head.

I'm still not sure what your problem with the fights is. It seems that you would have enjoyed the series more if the Hulk just walked through Marvel's heroes without being touched. Because him getting fired at once or occasionally getting hit a couple of times really seemed to bother you. I guess you really must be a huge Hulk fan after all.

No, my problem is when every single fight follows the same, boring, basic formula with no variation. Hopefully Sentry fight will change that.

But the Hulk hasn't used the same attack to beat his enemies. He dropped a building on Tony. He grabbed She-hulk's head and threw her around. One-punched Ares and Samson. Called in allies to defeat the rest of the Avengers. Beat the crap out of Reed and Strange and also crushed their hands. Outlasted Storm and Torch. Threw some tanks around. Thunderclapped some soldiers. Threw Ross out of a helicopter. And suplexed another one. So I'm still left wondering why you're criticizing the fights in WWH. It seems like you have a problem with Hulk using his powers to win a fight, but not when other characters use theirs.

I think I've clearly outlined my problems above.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Civil War actually had MEANING behind the action. No amount of beautifully drawn Jr Jr pictures of utterly mindless, boring and repetitive battles can live up to one half page spread of Tony punching Cap once.

Bah hero vs. hero fights are boring and stupid, they make the heroes look like idiots.

Cap and Tony were completely OOC during CW, Cap was an idiot and Tony was an SOB. If they had been in character, Cap would have lobbied congress against the SHRA and Tony wouldn't have made a Thor clone. If they had been acting in character, Tony and Cap would sat down like adults and made some compromises. The SHRA would have been passed, but with a million safe guards to prevent government abuses and protect the heroes IDs, so no government army, no Spidey having his ID revealed, no Gyrich in charge and no Bullseye as an agent.

Speaking of Bullseye, why did most of the villains do nothing during CW? Besides the Skull most villains were either government lackies or not present. The crossover made most villains look like ineffective idiots?

Why can't we get a crossover where heroes fight villains instead of each other?

[ivesaidway2much]

As you'll note, I amended it. We see Hulk take the ebst attack his foe can throw at him, then get up, unhurt for no reason except that he's really strong, then beat them up. See it with Black Bolt, see it with Iron Man, see it with Torch/Storm, see it with Reed, see it with Strange, see it with army. As you've noted on MANY occasions in this forum the Hulk didn't take the best attack of many of his opponents. I guess that would be some of the variety you're looking for.

How about a fight where both sides are getting blows in equally early on?Iron Man.

How about Hulk using- SHOCK- his *brains* to win.Dr. Strange and maybe Black Bolt.

How about there being a TWIST which lets Hulk win?Dr. Strange both times.

How about there being a SURPRISE?General Ross and Zom.

How about anuy of that planning pre-fight playing off?We don't even know what the pre-fight planning was. How do we know it didn't pay off? For all we know it was always his plan to get in close to Doc Strange as Bruce. Maybe he fought Black Bolt seperate from the others and on the moon because he knew his whisper would be far less potent in the thinner lunar atmosphere.

How about it going any way other than [i]the same damn way every single time?[i]Even you have grudgingly admitted that the Avenger fight was different from the others.

No, that basically happens once, and doesn't happen with Black Bolt, with Tony, with the Fantastic Six, or with Zzztrange. And even there, the humorous part is that both interactions are handled the same way. The formula works as usual for the army, and then works to a degree again for the Strange confrontation in his head.But you're formula is a person getting hit and then winning a fight. How many comics could survive that test? And even then, WWH had two fights where the Hulk never got hit. And still you claim every fight was repetitive. That seems kind of unreasonable. Add in that Tony and the army tried to kill him. Reed and probably the Avengers held back. And Doc Strange did both. With the Hulk attacking some and giving others the opportunity to walk away. And it seems to me there were a variety of different kinds of fights with different tactics and reasoning by the characters.

[Magneto Rocks]

As you've noted on MANY occasions in this forum the Hulk didn't take the best attack of many of his opponents. I guess that would be some of the variety you're looking for.

Not really, because it happened with every single major thus making there even LESS variety. ;)

Iron Man.

Nope. Iron Man injects him and punches him across the city, then Hulk comes back and kicks his ass.

Dr. Strange and maybe Black Bolt.

Bolt, clearly not. Strange, doubtful enough that it can really be called using his brains- not to mention it's shortly followed by a slugfest between the two characters.

Dr. Strange both times.

Fine, let me reword it, a twist which isn't blatantly obvious.

General Ross and Zom.

..Ross was hardly a surprise. And Zom was... but
A) It wasn't during a slugfest and
B) It was a surprise becasue it was insanely OOC.

We don't even know what the pre-fight planning was. How do we know it didn't pay off? For all we know it was always his plan to get in close to Doc Strange as Bruce. Maybe he fought Black Bolt seperate from the others and on the moon because he knew his whisper would be far less potent in the thinner lunar atmosphere.

So apparantly the sum total of his planning to take out Black Bolt was to hope Bolt whispered?

Wow, Hiroim clearly isn't a tactical mastermind then.

Even you have grudgingly admitted that the Avenger fight was different from the others.

For all it's glorious 3 pages. Two of which had one panel between them.

But you're formula is a person getting hit and then winning a fight. How many comics could survive that test?

No, it's not. It's the fight having the same rhythm, fight in fight out.

Enemy attacks Hulk - > Hulk on ropes/enduring it - > Hulk wins. (90% of the time by smashing.) It's happened like 6 times in 4 issues.

And even then, WWH had two fights where the Hulk never got hit. And still you claim every fight was repetitive.

Yes, because they are.

Add in that Tony and the army tried to kill him. Reed and probably the Avengers held back. And Doc Strange did both. With the Hulk attacking some and giving others the opportunity to walk away. And it seems to me there were a variety of different kinds of fights with different tactics and reasoning by the characters.

The problem is that while it's different on the surface, it all comes down to the same thing, which is just boring, one sided, well drawn, hideously plotted slugfest after slugfest. Maybe in moderation it would be okay but as it is, it's just deadly boring.

[ivesaidway2much]

Not really, because it happened with every single major thus making there even LESS variety. ;)And yet there were still a number of occasions where he did take his opponents best thus adding variety.;)



Nope. Iron Man injects him and punches him across the city, then Hulk comes back and kicks his ass.Iron man eventually gains the advantage when he stabs him in the back of the head. But their early blows were equally matched. Which is exactly what you said you wanted. I guess it wasn't

Fine, let me reword it, a twist which isn't blatantly obvious.You knew the Hulk was going to crush Doc Strange's hands?

..Ross was hardly a surprise.The only reason Ross wasn't a surprise is because the preview images gave it away. I fail to see how that is a problem with the writing.

So apparantly the sum total of his planning to take out Black Bolt was to hope Bolt whispered? Or to force him into only whispering by fighting him next to his home.

No, it's not. It's the fight having the same rhythm, fight in fight out.

Enemy attacks Hulk - > Hulk on ropes/enduring it - > Hulk wins. (90% of the time by smashing.) It's happened like 6 times in 4 issues.But the Hulk was never on the ropes against Black Bolt, the Avengers, the Fantastic Six, Dr. Strange the first time, or against the army (he barely even noticed them for most of the fight). So basically the only formula is someone getting hit and then winning a fight. Which is incredibly restrictive. And even that's not consistent with all the fights. Plus, the Hulk started the fights against Doc Strange and the Avengers.

EDIT:I forgot the army did tag him pretty hard with their adamantium rounds, but even then it was more because it was a good surprise attack. With the Hulk stopped from getting up by Doc Strange.

The problem is that while it's different on the surface, it all comes down to the same thing, which is just boring, one sided, well drawn, hideously plotted slugfest after slugfest. Maybe in moderation it would be okay but as it is, it's just deadly boring.Maybe your problem is with slugfests in general?

[z0mbie_aut0pil0t]

I like the Hulk and everything but I don't read his ongoing. Therefore I don't really have any feelings towards him.

Plus, the art is issue four was not up to JRJR's usual and that was kind of dissapointing.

Sentry is probably gonna smoke 'em.

[reddog]

I cant vote because there is no, they have all been underwhelming the past 3 years.

[bd2999]

I voted for sub par due to the treatment of Strange in the whole ordeal.

[Kevinroc]

I voted for sub par due to the treatment of Strange in the whole ordeal.

You mean the guy that couldn't stop a falling plane in a completely different comic? ;)

[Dark Soul # 7]

You mean the guy that couldn't stop a falling plane in a completely different comic? ;)Bendis's sub-par treatment of Dr.Strange has nothing to do with this event.

[Kevinroc]

Bendis's sub-par treatment of Dr.Strange has nothing to do with this event.

Brian Reed (co-writer of the Illuminati mini) said one of the Illuminati is a Skrull... And Dr. Strange was very weak in New Avengers, wasn't he?

Hhmm... That's Skrully...

If that's not the case, Bendis just made Strange weak. Pak's Strange is actually more powerful than the Bendis written one (even without the Zom thing).

[Magneto Rocks]

If that's not the case, Bendis just made Strange weak. Pak's Strange is actually more powerful than the Bendis written one (even without the Zom thing).

Let me make a comparison for you.

Let's say in his own book, the Hulk is knocked out by Abomination with ease. In, say, Defenders at the same time, he is beaten by Spider-Man, knocking him out with a punch to the jaw.

The fact that both these showings were awful does not mean the Hulk's own one is automatically good just because it's slightly less awful.

[Kevinroc]

Let me make a comparison for you.

Let's say in his own book, the Hulk is knocked out by Abomination with ease. In, say, Defenders at the same time, he is beaten by Spider-Man, knocking him out with a punch to the jaw.

The fact that both these showings were awful does not mean the Hulk's own one is automatically good just because it's slightly less awful.

If you want to get into it, Strange wasn't shown to be a weak sorcerer in WWH. And the concept that Strange couldn't use magic effectively if his hands were injured was already shown in the Flight of Bones mini from about 10 years ago.

So yes, Pak does indeed know Dr. Strange. ;)

[Magneto Rocks]

Well personally I think any chance of saying Pak understanding Strange went out the window when he used Zom but to each his own.

And I think that if your only recourse when your hands are crushed is to bring upon yourself a demon of unimaginable power then you're a pretty rubbish sorceror, yeah, but I guess it's to each person to make up their own mind again.

[Kevinroc]

Well personally I think any chance of saying Pak understanding Strange went out the window when he used Zom but to each his own.

And I think that if your only recourse when your hands are crushed is to bring upon yourself a demon of unimaginable power then you're a pretty rubbish sorceror, yeah, but I guess it's to each person to make up their own mind again.

The fact that he even used Zom showed that Pak knew Strange's continuity very well. And Strange calls upon evil demons all the time. Unless the Cyttorak that Strange calls upon is different from the Cyttorak that gave Juggernaut his powers. ;)

[Magneto Rocks]

Knowing something from a character's history doesn't mean you can write them well, or that you understand the character. And calling on a vague, ill defined power of Cytorrak and calling upon a giant cosmic universe-destroying demon to possess you are hardly the same.

[Kevinroc]

Knowing something from a character's history doesn't mean you can write them well, or that you understand the character. And calling on a vague, ill defined power of Cytorrak and calling upon a giant cosmic universe-destroying demon to possess you are hardly the same.

So Strange should have tried to murder the Hulk the first chance he got?

[Slumber Hulk]

I like WWH more than CW because in this series some uppity heroes actually get their "come-uppins" as my grandfather would say.

[K Von Doom]

The fact that he even used Zom showed that Pak knew Strange's continuity very well. And Strange calls upon evil demons all the time. Unless the Cyttorak that Strange calls upon is different from the Cyttorak that gave Juggernaut his powers. ;)

Cytorrak and Zom can't be compared. It's not about using a demon's power, it's about utilizing a spell that's part of Dr Strange's repertoire versus a power that Dr Strange isn't sure he can handle; in a time of great need. Dr Strange has vast experience drawing on Cytorrak's power. He has limited experience dealing with Zom's. Why would Dr Strange use Zom that instead of calling on familiar entities such as Agamotto and the Vishanti, or the Faltine or Krakkan or the Seraphim... etc.

Just because Pak threw in Zom doesn't mean he knows Strange's continuity. Judging by the way Dr Strange has been characterized in this series only means that Pak might have read that particular issue of Dr Strange and liked the villain.

So Strange should have tried to murder the Hulk the first chance he got?

No, as Sorcerer Supreme, Dr Strange had a multitude of options which would have made more sense than releasing a demon which could stomp on Cytorrak, Dormammu and the Vishanti at the same time. His options weren't just (1) calm down Hulk or (2) kill Hulk.

[Camron Amaya]

So Strange should have tried to murder the Hulk the first chance he got?

God yes.


:)

[ivesaidway2much]

Cytorrak and Zom can't be compared. It's not about using a demon's power, it's about utilizing a spell that's part of Dr Strange's repertoire versus a power that Dr Strange isn't sure he can handle; in a time of great need. Dr Strange has vast experience drawing on Cytorrak's power. He has limited experience dealing with Zom's. Why would Dr Strange use Zom that instead of calling on familiar entities such as Agamotto and the Vishanti, or the Faltine or Krakkan or the Seraphim... etc.
Pre-shuttle explosion Hulk defeated Dormammu, regularly went toe to toe with the bearer of Cytorrak's gem, and even broke Cyttorak's crimson bands. In fact, Strange has often called on the Hulk to help him deal with some his most powerful magical foes. With the Hulk stronger than he's ever been it seems Strange thought his currently limited ability to manipulate the "familiar enitities" (especially those around the same level of the ones that weaker incarnations of the Hulk had already beat or matched) wouldn't be enough.

In addition, this certainly isn't the first time Strange has used an insanely powerful force he couldn't fully control and wasn't really familiar with. There was Zom, of course. Or for instance, with the power of the Vishanti, Strange accidentally resurrected his brother as a vampire because he didn't understand their tome, and there was the whole thing with the War of the Seven Spheres, where Strange ended up fighting for 5000 years (and left the Earth Sorceror Supremeless for months) because he been abusing the power of the gods since the start of his magical career. Throw in the fact that Strange once deafeated Zomling with a vacuum cleaner and well...

[K Von Doom]

Pre-shuttle explosion Hulk defeated Dormammu, regularly went toe to toe with the bearer of Cytorrak's gem, and even broke Cyttorak's crimson bands. In fact, Strange has often called on the Hulk to help him deal with some his most powerful magical foes. With the Hulk stronger than he's ever been it seems Strange thought his currently limited ability to manipulate the "familiar enitities" (especially those around the same level of the ones that weaker incarnations of the Hulk had already beat or matched) wouldn't be enough.

In addition, this certainly isn't the first time Strange has used an insanely powerful force he couldn't fully control and wasn't really familiar with. There was Zom, of course. Or for instance, with the power of the Vishanti, Strange accidentally resurrected his brother as a vampire because he didn't understand their tome, and there was the whole thing with the War of the Seven Spheres, where Strange ended up fighting for 5000 years (and left the Earth Sorceror Supremeless for months) because he been abusing the power of the gods since the start of his magical career. Throw in the fact that Strange once deafeated Zomling with a vacuum cleaner and well...

I didn't bring up Cyttorak but the point I was trying to make with him was, instead of Dr Strange jumping off the deep end with Zom, if he was written in character, he would have invoked one of the other entities he was more familiar with - Cyttorak is one, Watoomb is another but the Vishanti would have been more effective. In other words, in a time of need would Dr Strange utilize tried and tested spells or something completely foreign to him? I equate Dr Strange using Zom instead of Cyttorak; to Thor having access to both the Ultimate Nullifier and Mjolnir, if his life was on the line, would Thor use the Nullifier or his hammer to beat his enemy?

I'd hazard a guess and say that calling on Agamotto or the Vishanti would to stop Hulk. Dr Strange isn't exactly a novice anymore, in addition to his training with the Ancient One, being chosen by the Vishanti as Sorcerer Supreme and fighting for 5000 years in the War of the Seven Spheres, we're not looking at someone who's going to accidentally resurrect past family members anymore. As a sidenote, I'm pretty sure Dr Strange (eventually) fought in the War out of duty to the Vishanti, perhaps begrudgingly but still willingly. When his right to call on higher mystic beings was taken away, because he didn't want to participate in the war, he pretty much knew he was ineffective as Sorcerer Supreme, so he chose to be the champion of the Vishanti. It wasn't as punishment for abusing the power of the gods since he became sorcerer supreme.

[Kevinroc]

I didn't bring up Cyttorak but the point I was trying to make with him was, instead of Dr Strange jumping off the deep end with Zom, if he was written in character, he would have invoked one of the other entities he was more familiar with - Cyttorak is one, Watoomb is another but the Vishanti would have been more effective. In other words, in a time of need would Dr Strange utilize tried and tested spells or something completely foreign to him? I equate Dr Strange using Zom instead of Cyttorak; to Thor having access to both the Ultimate Nullifier and Mjolnir, if his life was on the line, would Thor use the Nullifier or his hammer to beat his enemy?

I'd hazard a guess and say that calling on Agamotto or the Vishanti would to stop Hulk. Dr Strange isn't exactly a novice anymore, in addition to his training with the Ancient One, being chosen by the Vishanti as Sorcerer Supreme and fighting for 5000 years in the War of the Seven Spheres, we're not looking at someone who's going to accidentally resurrect past family members anymore. As a sidenote, I'm pretty sure Dr Strange (eventually) fought in the War out of duty to the Vishanti, perhaps begrudgingly but still willingly. When his right to call on higher mystic beings was taken away, because he didn't want to participate in the war, he pretty much knew he was ineffective as Sorcerer Supreme, so he chose to be the champion of the Vishanti. It wasn't as punishment for abusing the power of the gods since he became sorcerer supreme.

And with his hands crushed (which had previously been established as messing up Doc's powers), how reliable would that have been?

[gravling]

Once again, most of WWH criticisms = "waaaaa, my character lost, waaaa."

Though I probably wouldn't want it any other way. :D

i don't especially like blackbolt, but i like the suspension of long-running character traits and power hierarchies a lot less. realistically, black bolt would have handed the hulk his ass on a plate, and the fact that black bolt was taken down OFF panel really just confirms that pak KNOWS this and had no real idea about how to get around it.

[Kevinroc]

i don't especially like blackbolt, but i like the suspension of long-running character traits and power hierarchies a lot less. realistically, black bolt would have handed the hulk his ass on a plate, and the fact that black bolt was taken down OFF panel really just confirms that pak KNOWS this and had no real idea about how to get around it.

It still feels like "waah, my character lost" when talking about a guy with a dynamic level of strength.

Hulk can go from destroying Onslaught's physical form to battling the Super-Adaptoid to a standstill to having trouble keeping down Wolverine to taking on whole teams of Avengers (with guys like Namor, Hercules, Wonder Man and Iron Man).

[gravling]

It still feels like "waah, my character lost" when talking about a guy with a dynamic level of strength.

Hulk can go from destroying Onslaught's physical form to battling the Super-Adaptoid to a standstill to having trouble keeping down Wolverine to taking on whole teams of Avengers (with guys like Namor, Hercules, Wonder Man and Iron Man).

whatever, none of this changes the fact that WWH has for the most part been a predictable, two-dimensional 'hulk smash'-fest that's not REALLY as big as previous 'events' or will have longlasting ramifications like they did.

or that pak rhymes with 'hack', appropriately enough. 'phoenix warsong' anyone?

i'm 31, i like a bit of substance to the comics i read, and WWH has had almost none.

[Kevinroc]

whatever, none of this changes the fact that WWH has for the most part been a predictable, two-dimensional 'hulk smash'-fest that's not REALLY as big as previous 'events' or will have longlasting ramifications like they did.

or that pak rhymes with 'hack', appropriately enough. 'phoenix warsong' anyone?

i'm 31, i like a bit of substance to the comics i read, and WWH has had almost none.

What is "long-lasting" in your opinion?

And why do you say "two-dimensional?" Are you really looking at this thing? It's more than just "Hulk smash."

[Cletus Kasady]

While its obviously not the most notable event ever, should it really have been? I for one don't think that so soon after 'Civil War' that another event of huge proportions would of been a great idea. Civil Wars aftrermath is still very relevant, making WWH an epic would of only detracted from the great left-overs 'Civil War' has left us with such as the Cap/bucky stories in my opionion.

I've been intrigued every issue and looked forward for the next, although i must admit Hulk beating Blackbolt? Does Blackbolt no longer hold the Space Infinity Gem? Although they were trying to get hulk over as an all new super power i think that jobing Blackbolt was a weak move.

Anyway my point is, its not an epic, but im not disapointed. As usual MY OPINION, have your own.