Would Black Panther or Doom fare better against Thor?

[SquidSquod]

Or any smart, cunning heroes/villains do not have the slightest chance against strong, well-entrenched superbeings in Marvel feudalistic universe?

:rolleyes:

[Magneto Rocks]

Panther, no, Doom yes. He won't win, but Doom could make a damn good shot at it.

[Jmacq1]

Actually Doom -might- win depending on how long he's got to prepare.

Or at least, he could possibly win in an objective comparison, but not in the actual comics, since y'know...the plot kinda dictates that the bad guys lose in the end. :) But I don't want to take this too far into rumbles territory.

Panther would do "better" by virtue of not provoking a fight in the first place. Or not being crazy enough to face Thor directly if he knew a fight was coming.

[XPac]

BP has had good showings against the Surfer (for reasons that I cannot ever hope to comphrehend), so it's not impossible for him to be comparatively as effective against Thor (a being I would argue is a notch below Surfer). If all else fails there's McDuffie's dreaded armlock...

As for Doom, he could do it if he manages to get a descent enough plot device going into the fight. On paper, Doom is outmatches.

[Kefky]

BP God's Armlock ftw.

[Thursaiz]

How smart would you say Donald Blake is? I ask, because the lingo that Thor was spouting in #3 lead me to believe that it was Donald Blake providing the words. Unless I'm mistaken, Thor hasn't exactly been one to use medical lingo in past issues, let alone discuss Genetic Code stuff.

But yeah, I would say that Doom would give it a good show. If Black Panther is stupid enough to attack Thor, he can share the plot next to Goliath :) I can't wait until we get a real villain fighting Thor so that we can see what kind of power he unleashes.

[Doom68]

i have figured, since those issues when iron man fought thor cause thor had that whole "asgard floating over manhattan" or whatever. Ironman was no match, but Doom gave Tony the specs for an armor that allowed ironman to absorb and redirect the asgardian energy. Tony made a good fight but burned out or just wasnt up to the task. so i can see Doom using a newer and more improved version and taking Thor out with it. its plausible.

anyone remember those three issues?

[Jmacq1]

Problem being, Thor gave Iron Man a piece of enchanted Uru metal that was used as the power source for the armor. That piece was destroyed in the battle. Doom getting ahold of a similarly enchanted piece would be pretty difficult, though not impossible for him.

[Sean Whitmore]

Or any smart, cunning heroes/villains do not have the slightest chance against strong, well-entrenched superbeings in Marvel feudalistic universe?

Yes. Under the right circumstances, anyone could conceivably beat anyone else.

Maybe not the most fun answer, but it's the right one, and can be used for any "Can ____ beat ____" type of question.


SEAN

[Kefky]

Problem being, Thor gave Iron Man a piece of enchanted Uru metal that was used as the power source for the armor. That piece was destroyed in the battle. Doom getting ahold of a similarly enchanted piece would be pretty difficult, though not impossible for him.

IIRC, , though, Thor didn't give it to him, it was more like he managed to steal it somehow.

[Omega Alpha]

Doom has a very good shot at it.

BP's chances are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay inferior. Unless he's able to give the Wakandan Chokehold, which is more than enough to take down any being on the multiverse.

[JimTrabold]

Doom would fare better against Thor than T'Challa.

But hey, none of them are Avengers these days anyways!

:eek:

[marshal99]

If Push comes to shove , BP can always use the magicial frogs. ;)

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Panther, no, Doom yes. He won't win, but Doom could make a damn good shot at it.

If Panther stands a chance against Surfer and Galactus, he apparently can screw with Thor. And with prep time, I could see Doom and Magneto pretty much embarassing Thor. I don't think you will ever a present day comic where Thor goes over those two in anything of importance.

[Camron Amaya]

How smart would you say Donald Blake is? I ask, because the lingo that Thor was spouting in #3 lead me to believe that it was Donald Blake providing the words. Unless I'm mistaken, Thor hasn't exactly been one to use medical lingo in past issues, let alone discuss Genetic Code stuff.

But yeah, I would say that Doom would give it a good show. If Black Panther is stupid enough to attack Thor, he can share the plot next to Goliath :) I can't wait until we get a real villain fighting Thor so that we can see what kind of power he unleashes.

Well he kind of has. They are one being so each one knows everything the other does. It's not one or the other speaking....it's both as one.

He's talked about those things before and how the God of Thunder is "well versed in the ways of medecine". And cmon he's never really been an idiot. Not under a good writer anyway. So when it comes to that aspect I think he's pretty damn smart. But nowhere near as overly inteligent as Doom.

As for Black Panher...I put Surfer around the same place as Thor more or less and I think it's completly retarted that someone like Panther ever layed a hand on him, let alone defeated him with an arm lock. I mean why didn't he just use the same armlock on the Hulk in WWH? Idiocy.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Nah...he took away his cosmic strength first. Of course he didn't just do a standing version of the chicken wing submission and beat Surfer. That's impossible. LOL. People are still mad about that.

[Red Orion]

If Panther stands a chance against Surfer and Galactus, he apparently can screw with Thor. And with prep time, I could see Doom and Magneto pretty much embarassing Thor. I don't think you will ever a present day comic where Thor goes over those two in anything of importance.

Yeah because it's not like they've ever been defeated cleanly in a present day book before. Oh wait, they have. And seeing as how Magneto is currently powerless he couldn't even threaten Thor who is according to JMS more powerful then ever.

[Sean Whitmore]

And with prep time, I could see Doom and Magneto pretty much embarassing Thor. I don't think you will ever a present day comic where Thor goes over those two in anything of importance.

What in the good fricking crap does "anything of importance" mean?

Magneto and Doom try to blow up the planet with a doomsday machine. Thor smacks them on the heads with his hammer and scares them away. Welcome to super hero comics.


SEAN

[Erik Lehnsherr]

What in the good fricking crap does "anything of importance" mean?

Magneto and Doom try to blow up the planet with a doomsday machine. Thor smacks them on the heads with his hammer and scares them away. Welcome to super hero comics.


SEAN

I mean..any Avengers book..any standout issue. Thor is not going over. It's not gonna happen. Yeah he can look good slapping around Iron Man..that's cool. But Doom or Magneto? He's not gonna get that strong a push. Especially in this era.

Yeah because it's not like they've ever been defeated cleanly in a present day book before. Oh wait, they have. And seeing as how Magneto is currently powerless he couldn't even threaten Thor who is according to JMS more powerful then ever.

That's a cute statement by JMS. It's too bad you will never see it happen in a comic book.

[Adamantium_Avatar]

I thought Magneto had been repowered?

[Sean Whitmore]

I mean..any Avengers book..any standout issue. Thor is not going over. It's not gonna happen. Yeah he can look good slapping around Iron Man..that's cool. But Doom or Magneto? He's not gonna get that strong a push. Especially in this era.

I'm not trying to be snarky, but I honestly have no idea what you mean when you say "standout issue", "going over" "push", or "this era".


SEAN

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I thought Magneto had been repowered?

We thought he had been but the solicit for Uncanny next month says he's not.

I'm not trying to be snarky, but I honestly have no idea what you mean when you say "standout issue", "going over" "push", or "this era".

Kind of more "wrestling" lingo. What I mean is that Thor, even with his return and him being more powerful than ever, is not gonna be defeating Magneto in any book anytime soon. Yes...it's easy to SAY he would defeat Magneto. We can say that all year just like his fans were saying the same thing last year but it won't happen in a recent book..a 2007 book. Last Magneto/Thor interaction I know of was an Ultimate encounter between the two where Magneto embarassed the "God of Thunder" with hardly any effort. In your heart of hearts, you know as well as I that Thor in a book with 616 Magneto is not gonna just "knock him over his head" in one panel and look superior. No way on earth that happens.

[Jmacq1]

You're missing the point. If Doom or Magneto are set up as villains in a Thor arc, or even an Avengers arc that includes Thor, they're going to lose. Period.

That's the way comics work, because in most instances, if the bad guys ultimately win, there isn't much more story to tell.

Yeah, Magneto or Doom is likely to get an early victory. That's called "generating artificial suspense." But the good guys win in the end, regardless of who they might be.

Spider-Man could beat Doom or Magneto if that's what the writers want him to do. The only difference being they'd have to work a heck of a lot harder to come up with any sort of reasonable explanation for it than they would for a character at Thor's level of power.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

You're missing the point. If Doom or Magneto are set up as villains in a Thor arc, or even an Avengers arc that includes Thor, they're going to lose. Period.

That's the way comics work, because in most instances, if the bad guys ultimately win, there isn't much more story to tell.

Yeah, Magneto or Doom is likely to get an early victory. That's called "generating artificial suspense." But the good guys win in the end, regardless of who they might be.

Spider-Man could beat Doom or Magneto if that's what the writers want him to do. The only difference being they'd have to work a heck of a lot harder to come up with any sort of reasonable explanation for it than they would for a character at Thor's level of power.

Doom was the villian in "Standoff"..why didn't he lose? Magneto was the scapegoat in HOM..why did it take Wanda to save every Avenger and X-Man in attendance after he woke up? Now..a plot device may stop them but Thor is NEVER gonna knock out Doom or Magneto in a book or they would have to get a payback at some point. This isn't DC. Superman may be the final solution to DC's minor league villians but Thor never really has been that reliable in the grand scheme of things.

Magneto and Dr. Doom are guys who generate buys for comic events and stories. Especially Magneto so that whole "villian losing" philosophy goes out out the window pretty quick. That's why the Morrison stuff had to be retconned and why plot devices are the only way to stop Magneto from declaring mutantkind superior of the human race. I mean..where was Thor after he took over Genosha? He blackmailed the world and didn't do a damn thing. Hell, Magneto punked out his teammates and told them to stay of his business or else.

[Jmacq1]

Doom was a peripheral villain at best in "standoff" and he got a hell of a nasty computer virus for his trouble. Please explain to me how he "won" what essentially ended up a stalemate?

Please explain to me, since the villains are so "uber," how it is that mutantkind isn't ruling the world, the Fantastic Four are all still alive, and Doom isn't ruling the world?

Oh, that's right...because they've been ultimately beaten every time. Or I guess we just imagined it when Wolverine gutted Magneto like a fish. Or Xavier turned him into a vegetable. Or that Luke Cage hasn't slapped Doom around like he was a punk, or the FF hasn't turned the tables on Doom almost every time he shows up on their doorstep.

Oh wait...all those things have happened. Funny that.

Stop acting like Doom or Magneto are undefeatable. I'm afraid 40 or so years of comics proves that a dubious assumption at best. Outright fallacy at worst.

[Dracon]

Black Panther would fare better.

He is likly to be able to convince Thor not only to not oppose him, but aid him in whatever he is doing. Doom would have to skip the conversational step entirely and go straight to confronting Thor.

Which is not doing better.

Dooms formidable intellect, unlke the panthers, tend to fall flat when it comes to social skills.

[Shellhead]

Looking at high-end feats, both Black Panther and Dr. Doom are capable of beating Thor, though they would both need some prep time. Black Panther outwitted and defeated Mephisto. Doom has beaten Silver Surfer, Galactus and the Beyonder, and in each case, he stole their powers.

Aside from all speculation, has anybody read either of these comics?:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/87387731330.182.gif

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/05856107888.2.gif

I don't know how the Thor-Dr. Doom fight went, save that Doom was still ruling Latveria when the fight was over, and obviously Thor survived. But I do know that Captain America beat Thor in that second comic, while Black Panther beat the Hulk. Seems logical to me that Black Panther could have just as easily been the one who defeated Thor, especially with his weakness involving his hammer at that time.

[Jmacq1]

That just goes back to: Anyone can beat anyone if the writers want it that way. Going by high-end showings, Thor has stalemated (arguably defeated) the Silver Surfer, killed the Midgard Serpent, cracked open a Celestial's armor, fought against Surtur and Ymir, stalemated the Destroyer Armor (multiple times), and flown into the sun unscathed (off the top of my head).

If it's on the Rumbles board, then both Panther or Doom could take Thor "with prep" (arguably Iron Man could too) but not very likely without it.

But then again, we've yet to have the full power of current-Thor fully defined, either. If he's still packing the full Odinpower, it's a whole different ball game.

[XPac]

Looking at high-end feats, both Black Panther and Dr. Doom are capable of beating Thor, though they would both need some prep time. Black Panther outwitted and defeated Mephisto. Doom has beaten Silver Surfer, Galactus and the Beyonder, and in each case, he stole their powers.

Aside from all speculation, has anybody read either of these comics?:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/87387731330.182.gif

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/05856107888.2.gif

I don't know how the Thor-Dr. Doom fight went, save that Doom was still ruling Latveria when the fight was over, and obviously Thor survived. But I do know that Captain America beat Thor in that second comic, while Black Panther beat the Hulk. Seems logical to me that Black Panther could have just as easily been the one who defeated Thor, especially with his weakness involving his hammer at that time.

It's not logical to assume BP could beat Thor that easily because frankly it wasn't logical that Cap was able to do it.

[shaxberd]

I'd say they both have fairly good shots at it. For Doom, the combination of magic and technology can be very effective, and it never hurts to have limitless doombot minions to expend, or innocent citizens to threaten. For Black Panther, he's highly-skilled in stealth, and I don't know of Thor having any particularly enhanced senses. With the ebony blade, Black Panther could conceivably cut off Thor's head before he knew what was happening.

[sinjection]

BP has had good showings against the Surfer (for reasons that I cannot ever hope to comphrehend), so it's not impossible for him to be comparatively as effective against Thor (a being I would argue is a notch below Surfer). If all else fails there's McDuffie's dreaded armlock...

As for Doom, he could do it if he manages to get a descent enough plot device going into the fight. On paper, Doom is outmatches.

Hmmmm....Have you read Silver Surfer #4, a story titled "The Good, The Bad, and The Uncanny" written by Stan Lee and illustrated by the late, great Big John Buscema? Loki tricks the Surfer into traveling to Asgard for the purposes of fighting Thor. Thor - being good natured and the good host - holds back when the Surfer attacks, trying to determine why the Surfer is being so hostile. However, when the Surfer begins to push the envelope a little, Thor begins to become agitated. He stops holding back and when he stops holding back, the Surfer is fully aware that he has been fighting a Thor who hadn't been trying to hurt him.

The Surfer says: "I have seen the power of his mallet's magic. It is truly mightier than my cosmic force."

Later, an agitated Thor destroys a cosmic barrier - augmented by Loki's magic - surrounding Mjolnir. After watching that display of raw power, the Surfer thinks: "He possessed more strength than I could know--but he chose not to use it against me! He must have suspected--from the beginning--that I was merely duped!"

[Arilou]

Hmmmm....Have you read Silver Surfer #4, a story titled "The Good, The Bad, and The Uncanny" written by Stan Lee and illustrated by the late, great Big John Buscema? Loki tricks the Surfer into traveling to Asgard for the purposes of fighting Thor. Thor - being good natured and the good host - holds back when the Surfer attacks, trying to determine why the Surfer is being so hostile. However, when the Surfer begins to push the envelope a little, Thor begins to become agitated. He stops holding back and when he stops holding back, the Surfer is fully aware that he has been fighting a Thor who hadn't been trying to hurt him.

The Surfer says: "I have seen the power of his mallet's magic. It is truly mightier than my cosmic force."

Later, an agitated Thor destroys a cosmic barrier - augmented by Loki's magic - surrounding Mjolnir. After watching that display of raw power, the Surfer thinks: "He possessed more strength than I could know--but he chose not to use it against me! He must have suspected--from the beginning--that I was merely duped!"

It should be noted that both Thor and Surfer has had significant powerups AND powerdowns since. (The latest being during Annihilation of course)

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Doom was a peripheral villain at best in "standoff" and he got a hell of a nasty computer virus for his trouble. Please explain to me how he "won" what essentially ended up a stalemate?

Please explain to me, since the villains are so "uber," how it is that mutantkind isn't ruling the world, the Fantastic Four are all still alive, and Doom isn't ruling the world?

Oh, that's right...because they've been ultimately beaten every time. Or I guess we just imagined it when Wolverine gutted Magneto like a fish. Or Xavier turned him into a vegetable. Or that Luke Cage hasn't slapped Doom around like he was a punk, or the FF hasn't turned the tables on Doom almost every time he shows up on their doorstep.

Oh wait...all those things have happened. Funny that.

Stop acting like Doom or Magneto are undefeatable. I'm afraid 40 or so years of comics proves that a dubious assumption at best. Outright fallacy at worst.

He got a computer virus but he still got his way and went on with his business. What was anybody gonna do? And didn't Doom punk out Thor in Thor '99? I'm not sure on that though so since your a world class Thor fan, you can let me know the results of that one.

As for uber villians...Doom has taken over the world..and Magneto was running the world with mutantkind as the supreme race...Doom got bored in one scenario while Ghost Rider and Magneto stopped the other one. And Wanda was the one who stopped the House of Magnus reign. And the best result of that was Magneto losing his powers which is just to keep him out of action until Uncanny #500, of course. But you knew that already.

Show me a time where Wolverine has ever beat Magneto without his powers being on. Wolverine "gutted" Magneto after he kicks everyone's ass and his powers magically gets turned off so the issue can end in shock value. Then a fake Magneto killed Jean Grey for that screwup so it always levels out, no matter what.

Doom embarssed the FF in Unthinkable and if not for Strange and those demons, they would be dead. You see what I'm getting at? These aren't CLEAN losses..they are plot driven and not really legit. I mean..the X-Men never beat Magneto with his powers..they have to turn his powers off in new unheard of ways for them to stand a fickle of a chance. Doom has to be transported off the planet or go to hell or something like that for the FF to be spared. That's how it's been in the 90s and 2000s. Like I said, this isn't DC where Superman just shows up, beats the crap out of Darkseid for a whole comic, and things go back to status quo. Nope. There has to be consequences for things with Magneto or Doom. Wolverine getting crippled, the UN giving Magneto Genosha after getting blackmailed, Jean Grey dying, 16 million mutants dying becase they injured the king of Genosha, etc. That's the pattern.

[Sean Whitmore]

You see what I'm getting at? These aren't CLEAN losses..they are plot driven and not really legit.

Jesus Christ.

I hate to tell people that comic book characters aren't real because it sounds extremely patronizing, but every so often it becomes necessary.

Comic book characters are not real.

The fact that the radioactive spider didn't turn Peter Parker's organs into liquid [bleep] is "plot driven" and "not really legit".


SEAN

[Camron Amaya]

Jesus Christ.

I hate to tell people that comic book characters aren't real because it sounds extremely patronizing, but every so often it becomes necessary.

Comic book characters are not real.

The fact that the radioactive spider didn't turn Peter Parker's organs into liquid [bleep] is "plot driven" and "not really legit".


SEAN

Lmao.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e399/RaulRigel/THORED5.jpg

[XPac]

Hmmmm....Have you read Silver Surfer #4, a story titled "The Good, The Bad, and The Uncanny" written by Stan Lee and illustrated by the late, great Big John Buscema? Loki tricks the Surfer into traveling to Asgard for the purposes of fighting Thor. Thor - being good natured and the good host - holds back when the Surfer attacks, trying to determine why the Surfer is being so hostile. However, when the Surfer begins to push the envelope a little, Thor begins to become agitated. He stops holding back and when he stops holding back, the Surfer is fully aware that he has been fighting a Thor who hadn't been trying to hurt him.

The Surfer says: "I have seen the power of his mallet's magic. It is truly mightier than my cosmic force."

Later, an agitated Thor destroys a cosmic barrier - augmented by Loki's magic - surrounding Mjolnir. After watching that display of raw power, the Surfer thinks: "He possessed more strength than I could know--but he chose not to use it against me! He must have suspected--from the beginning--that I was merely duped!"

A Thor vs Surfer debate is certainly one that has a good amount of ammuntion on both sides.

That said, in my opinion, if you look at everything Thor is capable of doing in contrast to everything Surfer can do, I would argue Surfer comes out ahead.

Either way, BP owns them both with submission wrestling as long as McDuffie is writing the book. And that fact makes me very sad.

[Shonuff]

A Thor vs Surfer debate is certainly one that has a good amount of ammuntion on both sides.

That said, in my opinion, if you look at everything Thor is capable of doing in contrast to everything Surfer can do, I would argue Surfer comes out ahead.

Either way, BP owns them both with submission wrestling as long as McDuffie is writing the book. And that fact makes me very sad.

Geez, You're still going on about that? seriously let it go.:rolleyes:

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Jesus Christ.

I hate to tell people that comic book characters aren't real because it sounds extremely patronizing, but every so often it becomes necessary.

Comic book characters are not real.

The fact that the radioactive spider didn't turn Peter Parker's organs into liquid [bleep] is "plot driven" and "not really legit".


SEAN

Yeah..that's why Thor beating them by anyone's word in this thread isn't canon or factual. It has to be proven.

[Omega Alpha]

That just goes back to: Anyone can beat anyone if the writers want it that way.

Of course. But the discussion is: if written well, T'challa or Doom have a chance against Thor? Pixie from the New X-men could beat Thor if the writer wants to, but could that happen normally, in a good story, in a way that would not make every fan wish they had never read a comic book in their entire lives?

[Sean Whitmore]

Pixie from the New X-men could beat Thor if the writer wants to, but could that happen normally, in a good story, in a way that would not make every fan wish they had never read a comic book in their entire lives?

Yes.

Though I suppose that does depend on how strictly you define "normally", "good" story, and "every fan".


SEAN

[Jmacq1]

Of course. But the discussion is: if written well, T'challa or Doom have a chance against Thor? Pixie from the New X-men could beat Thor if the writer wants to, but could that happen normally, in a good story, in a way that would not make every fan wish they had never read a comic book in their entire lives?

Of course. As long as there aren't any magical arm-locks involved.

But the reverse is just as true when it comes to Thor defeating them. Doom or T'Challa need to actually come up with a plan to defeat Thor. Magneto (assuming he's powered) not quite as much due to his raw power, but it'd certainly help. In any sort of straightforward confrontation (as his encounter in Iron Man #3 certainly was) is just inviting a sound butt-whooping by almost anyone that's short of Herald levels.

Because it's just as much crap writing to have a villain (temporarily) defeat a mega-powerful hero without any sort of planning or trouble whatsoever as it is to treat competent villains like negligible threats.

Just about anyone who went into the situation in Thor #3 in the same manner Tony did (Ie without any special preparation and a generally arrogant and condescending attitude) is going to end up in the same shape Tony was. It'd require a different approach to get a different outcome.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Exactly. Now..could you ever imagine Doom, Magneto, or Sinister entering a situation with Thor without having the advantage? It goes against the whole style and history of their characters.

[Jmacq1]

Well, given that it goes against the history of Iron Man to try to face down pretty much anybody without some kind of plan (or at least a special suit of armor for the occasion), I'd say everyone makes mistakes, once again...as long as the writer wants them to.

Where did Sinister come from? Are we randomly adding more villains to the list now?

And once again: Any plan they come up with can only be based on what they know of Thor. And currently...Thor's operating on a power level that by all appearances is significantly more overtly powerful than his "Classic" self....and if he's still got the Odinpower, then well...Doom might have a chance based on his history, but pretty much anyone else runs the risk of being wiped out of existence with a little more than a stray thought.

In other words, with the Odinpower, Thor's power level runs closer to Galactus than the Silver Surfer. They just haven't made it clear how much of the Odinpower (if any) Thor's still carrying around...though his reconstruction and levitation of Asgard would seem to indicate that there's definitely some left.

[Shellhead]

Yes.

Though I suppose that does depend on how strictly you define "normally", "good" story, and "every fan".


SEAN

I think that the word "normally" should be used sparingly here at CBR. The subject matter of the average comic book is extremely abnormal, starting with the masks.

[Harold of the Rocks]

Yeah..that's why Thor beating them by anyone's word in this thread isn't canon or factual. It has to be proven....as is Doom or Magneto prevailing by anyone's claim here as well. Can't open a door without making it both an entrance and an exit.