Hulk and the world... How do you see it?

[Kevinroc]

Does it work better when the Hulk is a misunderstood creature that the world is wrong for trying to destroy or when the Hulk is a monster that the world would be better off without?

[ivesaidway2much]

How could the world be better off without the Hulk? If he were there at the final battle of Civil War, there wouldn't have been any casualties. It turns out we now know why more people don't die in all those universe-wide crossovers Marvel has.:D

[TotalWorldDomination]

I'd like to modify the second response to read "The Hulk is a Misunderstood monster that the world would be better off without". Just because you're a tragic monster dosn't mean you're not a monster, and sadly the hulk has done more then his share of damage.

[DaeJi]

I'd like to modify the second response to read "The Hulk is a Misunderstood monster that the world would be better off without". Just because you're a tragic monster dosn't mean you're not a monster, and sadly the hulk has done more then his share of damage.

Yay, we have a winner! Despite all the Hulk has done, he'll always be a monster. It's tragic really, how no matter what he does in the end he'll still be that.

Or this could chance that Pak inserted himself into the book (and renamed himself Cho) and basically told everyone that the Hulk never killed anyone in his rampages. Ever.

.... I miss monster Hulk :(

[Magneto Rocks]

I refuse to vote as neither sums up my views and it's an attempt to force people into viewpoints they do not agree with, without a middle ground.

[DaeJi]

I refuse to vote as neither sums up my views and it's an attempt to force people into viewpoints they do not agree with, without a middle ground.

Ah, come on! Pick a side, all the cool posters are doing it.

[ivesaidway2much]

I refuse to vote as neither sums up my views and it's an attempt to force people into viewpoints they do not agree with, without a middle ground.Maybe, I'm having vision problems because I'm having a hard time believing what I just read. But are you saying Marvel Earth would be better off with the Hulk still there?:confused: Was Iron Man and the rest of the Illuminati wrong?!?


Or this could chance that Pak inserted himself into the book (and renamed himself Cho) and basically told everyone that the Hulk never killed anyone in his rampages. Ever.And Cho never said that.

[Magneto Rocks]

Maybe, I'm having vision problems because I'm having a hard time believing what I just read. But are you saying Marvel Earth would be better off with the Hulk still there?:confused: Was Iron Man and the rest of the Illuminati wrong?!?

They were neither wrong, nor right. One can convincingly argue either way. Not to mention that it';s possible he's misunderstood AND a monster, etc.

[Kevinroc]

They were neither wrong, nor right. One can convincingly argue either way. Not to mention that it';s possible he's misunderstood AND a monster, etc.

I'm asking, thematically, which works better for Hulk. If he is misunderstood and the world is wrong for trying to be rid of him, or if he is really a monster and the world is right to try and get rid of him.

[Magneto Rocks]

Neither, because again, what works best thematically for the Hulk is that he CAN be a monster and the world is sometimes right to hate him and sometimes wrong. Limiting the Hulk to one or the other ruins the character's appeal IMO.

[ivesaidway2much]

Neither, because again, what works best thematically for the Hulk is that he CAN be a monster and the world is sometimes right to hate him and sometimes wrong. Limiting the Hulk to one or the other ruins the character's appeal IMO.So then you must be really loving WWH? It looks like Pak has captured some of the appeal of the Hulk. He's both a vicious conqueror contemplating making his enemies fight to the death after he already outfitted them with obedience disks as well as a guy who goes to great lengths to preserve the lives of innocent bystanders. Hero and monster all in one package. No wonder the book is doing so well.:D

[Badfish40oz]

Yay, we have a winner! Despite all the Hulk has done, he'll always be a monster. It's tragic really, how no matter what he does in the end he'll still be that.

You honestly believe this is the intentions of the creators/writers of the Incredible Hulk? This is what the Hulk story is all about? That he's a monster and he'll always be a monster?

Seriously?

[Mr Fixit]

So then you must be really loving WWH? It looks like Pak has captured some of the appeal of the Hulk. He's both a vicious conqueror contemplating making his enemies fight to the death after he already outfitted them with obedience disks as well as a guy who goes to great lengths to preserve the lives of innocent bystanders. Hero and monster all in one package. No wonder the book is doing so well.:D

I quite like the idea that he was a monster people failed to understand and now he back making people understand what he is all about :)
The thing is after reading Hulk 110 I don't think even he understand all that he is doing but there is support from some humans for what he is doing.

Something totaly odd could happen where The Hulk dislikes being seen as a monster but some percentage of people like him like that.
Since Hulk has always wanted acceptence he may have to furfill a role he doesn't really believe in...who knows?

[AnthonyJ]

Being a monster that the world would be better off without is rather incompatible with having a comic book in which the Hulk is the hero, so from a publishing standpoint it works much better if the Hulk is a misunderstood monster. From a plausibility standpoint, it seems like the world might well be better off without the Hulk, however.

[DaeJi]

You honestly believe this is the intentions of the creators/writers of the Incredible Hulk? This is what the Hulk story is all about? That he's a monster and he'll always be a monster?

Seriously?

I see the Hulk more as a tragedy, how no matter his desires or wishes in the end he will seen as a monster. Think Frankenstein.

[ivesaidway2much]

I see the Hulk more as a tragedy, how no matter his desires or wishes in the end he will seen as a monster. Think Frankenstein.Didn't Frankenstein murder a little girl because she picked the last petal off of a flower?

[wolfblade]

Hulk to me is the monster society wanted him to be, he was hounded and hunted to the ends of the earth and with his limited mind he was tricked and betrayed time and time again. In the end what would have become of him if people just accepted him, no he grew cold to the world as it gave him no choice for the world itself grew cold to him, the other emotions he could have harbored and the good he could have done were dashed away, and he was left with only his anger, malice, and self pity to drive him on. It is true that even now he regards himself as the monster people see him, but why is that, is it because the hulk has accepted what people see him as, or is it that he himself feels as though he is a monster for not feeling anything but the rage bought on by his tormentors? In the end I don’t know but I do know things could have been different if people wanted them too. It all comes down to the choices we make, the hulk was not a monster when he was first spawned from that gamma explosion, no the hulk became a monster from the harshness of the world around him. He is an eternal reflection of that fear and hatred we harbor within ourselves. Of course this is all my opinion.

[marty is ruling]

I see the Hulk more as a tragedy, how no matter his desires or wishes in the end he will seen as a monster. Think Frankenstein.

Stan Lee said that Frankenstein and the Jekyll and Hyde characters directly inspired the Hulk. In fact he went so far as to say that the Hulk was basically a combination of the two.

Not just in appearance (as in they change from a man to a monster), but on an emotional level as well.

A good man one moment, than boom, a transformation into a monster. (At least in reference to Jekyll and Hyde).

The Hulk is just a deeper exploration into those stories.

I find it interesting if they choose to take Hulk down a darker path.

I mean they showed the Hulk and Banner personalities combined in "The Professor Hulk", and he was good......now let's combine the two again and wind up with the darker side prevailing and let the Hulk be a villain.

Also, in the original Frankenstein movie..the monster did kill a little girl, but that scene was edited out. I can't say for sure if it ever made it to the theaters.

I never read the book though.......

[Harlock]

Poor Hulk. I lean more towards the first choice in that he is the misunderstood monster. Should we say the world is wrong for wanting him gone? Meh, I really don't think so. If it were my city he levelled, I'd want him gone to, regardless of the contributions Banner made.

Interestingly enough, I liked a thinking Hulk. Yeah, it destroyed the concept of unadulterated rage that Stan Lee intended but it was an interesting read. I suppose we have other heroes like that now anyway, however.

[Van Custo]

It doesn't matter.

Hulk will get Thored eventualy, just like the rest.

[CMBMOOL]

Hulk to me is the monster society wanted him to be, he was hounded and hunted to the ends of the earth and with his limited mind he was tricked and betrayed time and time again. In the end what would have become of him if people just accepted him, no he grew cold to the world as it gave him no choice for the world itself grew cold to him, the other emotions he could have harbored and the good he could have done were dashed away, and he was left with only his anger, malice, and self pity to drive him on. It is true that even now he regards himself as the monster people see him, but why is that, is it because the hulk has accepted what people see him as, or is it that he himself feels as though he is a monster for not feeling anything but the rage bought on by his tormentors? In the end I don’t know but I do know things could have been different if people wanted them too. It all comes down to the choices we make, the hulk was not a monster when he was first spawned from that gamma explosion, no the hulk became a monster from the harshness of the world around him. He is an eternal reflection of that fear and hatred we harbor within ourselves. Of course this is all my opinion.

I second that opinion because to me, the world was just to quick to judge on the Hulk and he became the monster that they feared all along. :(

[wolfblade]

It doesn't matter.

Hulk will get Thored eventualy, just like the rest.

you know I love thor and everything but if I hear one more " thors going to kick jade jaws ass" I realy am hoping that someone shoves his hamer right up his godly rear end.

[Van Custo]

you know I love thor and everything but if I hear one more " thors going to kick jade jaws ass" I realy am hoping that someone shoves his hamer right up his godly rear end.

lmao I couldn't resist! It so easily ruines any thread.

[wolfblade]

lmao I couldn't resist! It so easily ruines any thread.

well in that case, by all means countinue I hope thor brings captian america back from the dead...he can do it.

[jackolover]

From a plausibility standpoint, it seems like the world might well be better off without the Hulk, however.

I ponder on the Hulks association with earth and it's people. Certainly, Hulk had a positive experience on Sakaar, but as earth is his parent, and all the other freaks are welcome, no matter if they are monsters, I think Hulk has a right, and a purpose on this earth, too.

Where does the Hulk fit in? Hulk is that creature that describes the rage in humanity. If we don't like the Hulk, we aren't accepting the rage that we sometimes exhibit. We all have rage. Hulk can stay, because he's one of us.

[DaeJi]

Didn't Frankenstein murder a little girl because she picked the last petal off of a flower?

I mean the book Frankenstein, not the movie. In the book, Frankenstein's Monster learns to speak by observing a poor family, and does them a few favors in secret. But once they see him they drive him away, as does every person who sees him. In the end he kills several of Frankenstein's loved ones out of revenge, becoming the monster the world saw him as.

So yeah, I see a LOT of him in the Hulk.

[jackolover]

I mean the book Frankenstein, not the movie. In the book, Frankenstein's Monster learns to speak by observing a poor family, and does them a few favors in secret. But once they see him they drive him away, as does every person who sees him. In the end he kills several of Frankenstein's loved ones out of revenge, becoming the monster the world saw him as.

So yeah, I see a LOT of him in the Hulk.

So if we're assigning a fictional character a corporal form, what is a monster? Is it just his appearance, or is it his behavior that makes us assign the term monster? Ben Grimm looks like a monster, be we don't run him out of town.

[DaeJi]

So if we're assigning a fictional character a corporal form, what is a monster? Is it just his appearance, or is it his behavior that makes us assign the term monster? Ben Grimm looks like a monster, be we don't run him out of town.

The people in the book saw him as a monster. Therefore, he acted like one.

And there's a big difference between the Thing and the Hulk. The Thing is still Ben Grimm, that lovable lug of a guy, and he introduced himself to the world at large by helping to beat down a giant monster destroying parts of New York as a member of the Fantastic Four. The Hulk made his mark on the world by destroying a large chunk of it.

So yeah, it's easy to see the difference. A monster is more than just looks, it's actions as well. And also, when have people been reasonable? Look at racism, sexism, religious intolerance, condemning people for things they cannot help. If Stan Lee had wanted the world to see the Thing as a monster, the Thing would be seen as a monster. The real question is, would it be fair? In the Thing's case, no. In the Hulks? Monster fits.

[jackolover]

The people in the book saw him as a monster. Therefore, he acted like one. .

So talking about Frankensteins monster, just because people saw his appearance as monstrous, this assigned the character a monstrous action? To me it doesn't follow, unless something leeds the character to monstrous behaviour, by either withholding love, or, treating the creature monstrously, and the creature reflects it.


And there's a big difference between the Thing and the Hulk. The Thing is still Ben Grimm, that lovable lug of a guy, and he introduced himself to the world at large by helping to beat down a giant monster destroying parts of New York as a member of the Fantastic Four. The Hulk made his mark on the world by destroying a large chunk of it.

Okay, then the Hulk is misunderstood, because despite the Hulks destructive behaviour, he still has the self-control to not be lethal. What seems to be the problem for the Hulk is that not enough people realise the Hulk has this self-restraining nature, and so, people are fearful all the time.





So yeah, it's easy to see the difference. A monster is more than just looks, it's actions as well. And also, when have people been reasonable? Look at racism, sexism, religious intolerance, condemning people for things they cannot help. If Stan Lee had wanted the world to see the Thing as a monster, the Thing would be seen as a monster. The real question is, would it be fair? In the Thing's case, no. In the Hulks? Monster fits.

A monster is not looks, it's actions.

I think we're taking a lot of liberty with assigning Hulks monstrousness to his actions. We see the Hulks negative actions, but conveniently, miss all the Hulks positive actions. How come we have this perfectly monstrous creature, called the Hulk, but we don't call him a villian? Why isn't the Hulk a villian? I'll tell you why. Because deep down people ARE aware of the heroic aspect of his nature, and, that Hulk doesn't haphazardly wreak havok at every occasion. That when the Hulk is involved with some kind of violence, there is usually something wrong, or, some villian involved. Everybody has seen the Hulk act with honor on some occassion. This is why the heroes don't systematically hunt down the Hulk. The Hulk is always there, somewhere, but nobody tries to get a force together to take out the Hulk.

Hulk a monster? Not so sure he deserves that tag. There are too many people who have called on his ability, and there have been too many occasions when the Hulk has answered the call to save the world, or the people. Maybe the Angry Rogue would be more appropriate.

[bjtrdff]

He has been acting like one.

The Hulk/Banner has one so far as to attempt suicide to try and stop from hurting anyone. And he has tried to go into exile a million times to stop from hurting innocent people. And before anyone gives that stupid 'no one ever died because of any of Hulk's fights before' read Gamma corps.

A bunch of people did what had to be done, and a ship accidentally exploded after a giant bug and an anthropomorphic rock tinkered with it.

Oh, then he went and attacked the home of someone who wasn't even around at the time to see how he would vote.

You don't have to kill people to be a monster. No, and I don't think that that will end up being the case in a couple years time. But as of WWH, that's the case.

[Badfish40oz]

jackolover said it all. No need to continue this thread.

[DaeJi]

So talking about Frankensteins monster, just because people saw his appearance as monstrous, this assigned the character a monstrous action? To me it doesn't follow, unless something leeds the character to monstrous behaviour, by either withholding love, or, treating the creature monstrously, and the creature reflects it.

Read the book.


I think we're taking a lot of liberty with assigning Hulks monstrousness to his actions. We see the Hulks negative actions, but conveniently, miss all the Hulks positive actions.

Anyone can do good actions, but the Hulk is unpredictable and dangerous at the best of times. See, there is usually something behind his rampages, he doesn't just go off on his own. But look how easy it is to set him off; there's a reason why we don't see other heroes off being tricked into destroying stuff all the time. The Hulk is like the singing fun time gun. Sure there's singing a laugher and merriment for a long time, but touch the gun and it goes off.

Of course, with WWH and Pak's new explanation for everything the Hulk has done, well, the Hulk may be a monster, but he's no longer that dangerous. In fact I doubt anyone really has to be scared of him anymore; just have good insurance and you're golden. It's not like you'll die or anything, Banner takes care of that.

[DaeJi]

jackolover said it all. No need to continue this thread.

Unless you disagree. Then again how can anyone view the Hulk differently from jackolover, he's swell and knows all there is to know about the Hulk.






Just so you know jackolover, I'm not mocking you.

[ivesaidway2much]

Of course, with WWH and Pak's new explanation for everything the Hulk has done, well, the Hulk may be a monster, but he's no longer that dangerous. In fact I doubt anyone really has to be scared of him anymore; just have good insurance and you're golden. It's not like you'll die or anything, Banner takes care of that.Have you actually read any WWH-related material? Because that giant, green guy conquering NYC, kicking the crap out of the "heroes", fitting them with obedience disks, and contemplating whether to make them fight to the death seems at least a little dangerous to me.

The only thing Pak did was give the Hulk the ability to choose whether or not to be a monster. The same choice Frankenstein got. I really fail to see why people think Inc Hulk #110 automatically makes the Hulk a good guy, especilally in light of the several other Hulk stories running at the same time. All it did was show that the Hulk isn't among Marvel's top 25 most prolific mass murderers, and that all the heroes that have helped and aided him over the years aren't evil sociopaths who don't care about innocent blood being spilled. The Hulk has still killed plenty of people intentionally (and he's thinking of doing the same thing to the Illuminati), and caused trillions of dollars of property damage. He's just morally grey now, as opposed to a black-hearted baby killer who doesn't care how many people die as long as he has the freedom to get mad whenever he feels like it.

[jigrig]

Have you actually read any WWH-related material? Because that giant, green guy conquering NYC, kicking the crap out of the "heroes", fitting them with obedience disks, and contemplating whether to make them fight to the death seems at least a little dangerous to me.

The only thing Pak did was give the Hulk the ability to choose whether or not to be a monster. The same choice Frankenstein got. I really fail to see why people think Inc Hulk #110 automatically makes the Hulk a good guy, especilally in light of the several other Hulk stories running at the same time. All it did was show that the Hulk isn't among Marvel's top 25 most prolific mass murderers, and that all the heroes that have helped and aided him over the years aren't evil sociopaths who don't care about innocent blood being spilled. The Hulk has still killed plenty of people intentionally (and he's thinking of doing the same thing to the Illuminati), and caused trillions of dollars of property damage. He's just morally grey now, as opposed to a black-hearted baby killer who doesn't care how many people die as long as he has the freedom to get mad whenever he feels like it.

Another unmentioned kill was Draxon in TIH #134, The Shadow of The Golem although Hulk states that He did not mean to kill Him The JO had it coming also if You read the Incredible Hulk faithfully this version of Savage Hulk was constant & He was the Reluctant Hero but Hero none the same, only in crap guest appearances was He portrayed as a savage monster.
Those Faithful will know exactly what I mean.

[IamtheRock3]

Hulk is a monster at times

but end of the day he does a LOT more good then harm

[jackolover]

Unless you disagree. Then again how can anyone view the Hulk differently from jackolover, he's swell and knows all there is to know about the Hulk.






Just so you know jackolover, I'm not mocking you.

No. Not much. But it's okay. I do come across as aggressive, but as long as you reply as aggressively, then you get your point across.

[jackolover]

Read the book.

Rather than me having to go out and read the thing, what about you giving me a reason why my answer doesn't sound right? Is there another reason why a monster can be termed a monster besides lack of love, or treatment?






Anyone can do good actions, but the Hulk is unpredictable and dangerous at the best of times. See, there is usually something behind his rampages, he doesn't just go off on his own. But look how easy it is to set him off; there's a reason why we don't see other heroes off being tricked into destroying stuff all the time. The Hulk is like the singing fun time gun. Sure there's singing a laugher and merriment for a long time, but touch the gun and it goes off.


Hulk certainly isn't like any other hero, and he does come across as easily manipulated, but being as strong as he is, he is going to knock over a few things just by walking around. But that's not it, is it? It's the unpredictability and dangerousness that makes Hulk the monster.

I used to have a neighbor, when I was kid, and Terry was an autistic, and he walked funny. He was 14, and when he swung around he injured his mum, and we were warned to be careful around him. Now Terry could have been called a monster, because of those reason of unpredictability and dangerousness , but society didn't label him as such, (even though us kids were scared of him), and eventually he had to be put into an asylum, or what they they used in those days for people like Terry that were awkward.

They can't do that with the Hulk, because the authorities don't have any means to put Hulk into any place, so he roams around free, and though people are scared of him, Hulk has less reason to be feared than the other violent creatures that roam around the MU. Nevertheless, that doesn't stop people, like you say, being judgemental in this world. JJ Jameson has a lot to answer for.

[wolfblade]

Rather than me having to go out and read the thing, what about you giving me a reason why my answer doesn't sound right? Is there another reason why a monster can be termed a monster besides lack of love, or treatment?





Hulk certainly isn't like any other hero, and he does come across as easily manipulated, but being as strong as he is, he is going to knock over a few things just by walking around. But that's not it, is it? It's the unpredictability and dangerousness that makes Hulk the monster.

I used to have a neighbor, when I was kid, and Terry was an autistic, and he walked funny. He was 14, and when he swung around he injured his mum, and we were warned to be careful around him. Now Terry could have been called a monster, because of those reason of unpredictability and dangerousness , but society didn't label him as such, (even though us kids were scared of him), and eventually he had to be put into an asylum, or what they they used in those days for people like Terry that were awkward.

They can't do that with the Hulk, because the authorities don't have any means to put Hulk into any place, so he roams around free, and though people are scared of him, Hulk has less reason to be feared than the other violent creatures that roam around the MU. Nevertheless, that doesn't stop people, like you say, being judgemental in this world. JJ Jameson has a lot to answer for.

but hulk only attacks when he is attacked so that dosent make too much sense to me.

[Alan2099]

Hulk is a sympathetic monster, but a monster all the same. Still, for the most part, Hulk is a relativley nice guy. It's just when you give him a reason to be a monster that he goes all out.

[gravling]

seriously: take a look at the state of new york city post wwh. how many millions of dollars worth of damage? and who pays for that? the good taxpayers of the MU.

being realistic, i think anyone in the MU in their right mind would say 'shoot the f*cker back into space'

destruction of public property on a huge scale? in the real world, particularly the post 9/11 new york - he would be locked up, and the key thrown away.

[Alan2099]

seriously: take a look at the state of new york city post wwh.
Take a look at it Post Civil War.


being realistic, i think anyone in the MU in their right mind would say 'shoot the f*cker back into space'
Marvel doesn't seem that big on realism these days. Just drama.