Claremont's X-Men:Die By The Sword #1 first look

[Joe Franklin]

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0709/17/firsts.htm

[xgeek52]

i'm tired and tomorrow i have another day in hell at work,,,

hasta la bye, bye...

[dotdotdot]

lol at the existence of this book in the first place

[The Sword Is Drawn]

This actually looks pretty good. The artwork isn't outstanding, but it appears to do the job. These are the same preview pages posted up by Marvel yesterday. They're not all sequential. The second page shown is a clear flashback to House of M - just to remind us that that Jaspers/Fury gestalt has been around since then. Just because Captain Britain twatted it off over the horizon (If that's really the right world in Otherworld - as the rules of physics don't really apply...) doesn't mean it died.

Also very glad that that appears to be Merlyn's image appearing in the final page, next to his daughter, in a spectral fashion. I've had enough of Roma ruling the roost, now. Let's have Merlyn back. He was a right bastard. :D He also appears to be standing with Jaspers in that penultimate image, too. In both cases it's unlikeely that they know he's there. But since Excalibur stuffed his plans in the mid 90s he's not really been seen, and the idea that he's been lurking all this time, waiting for a chance to take Otherworld back does entertain me.

It looks like Jaspers and The Fury have separated there. But what they appear to be doing to those random Captains is what interests me the most. Jaspers was the ORIGINAL reality Warper. Forget Jamie Braddock, even forget The Scarlet Witch. Jaspers came first. And he's completely mad without any sense of conscience. He appears to be literally warping these Captains into versions of The Fury - using his powers to rewrite them on a gentic level.

I mean that's one hell of a way to kill off the Captain Britain Corps, but more importantly what do you do with an army of living machines, whose very reason to be is to kill every superbeing they find, when your standing in the hub of all realities. Let's just hope they don't find their way out, because the death toll would be HUGE! :D

[Karl H]

The art looks pretty.

That's all I can really say.

[Pro]

i'm tired and tomorrow i have another day in hell at work,,,

hasta la bye, bye...

Err .. okay .. ?

[Karl H]

I think most of us have got an idea of at least what the plot of this is going to contain. It's clearly the Betsy/ Brian versus Mad Jim Jaspers plot which has been simmering away since his last Uncanny run.

Roma as a character has never really interested me but I guess this will all explain why she has started to appear randomly in Exiles and all the 'Crosstime' references in the book.

I'll probably pick this up but mainly for my love of Exiles and hoping it takes the book in a new direction. I actually want CC to succeed on this and really hope he can do something new and exciting with the Exiles post this crossover. I have my doubts but lets see.

[Frank]

CC should use this event to take the opportunity to have Dazzler and Sage join the Exiles. That way Cornell won't have to flush them himself. :D

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I know there are some eXiles fans out there who see the book as being completely and totally original, and often seem to believe that eXiles genuinely is the first title ever to have dealt with multiversal stories and therefore should be considered the be-all-and-end-all on the subject OF the Multiverse - in it's own right and with writers like Winnick having created a template which everybody else should adhere to and ever tamper with.

And for that reason they have there own specific reason to object to Claremont's approach to eXiles stories.

But the bottom line is that several parts of eXiles simply doesn't fit in with the established terms of Marvel's multiverse. The concept that time can flow completely differently in another universe is not an alien concept, but in eXiles it has often been used as a cheap fix to allow use of other Marvel properties such as Marvel 2099, which were after all originally intended to be future timelines of the actual Marvel Universe.

It's things like this which pissed me off about eXiles. Not so much breaking established rules in Marvel - morseo bending them in a way which does a disservice to other stories in other titles long before the book came along.

And then there was the nagging issues of how the Captain Britain Corps - as a pandimensional organization dedicated to watching for wrong-doing and imbalances across the Multiverse - or the Living Tribunal who had a similar role in some respects, had not come up against the eXiles and asked them just who the hell they thought they were to be interfering. It was more passable in my eyes before the Timebroker was revealed to be a facade - back then I was dearly hoping that it might actually link in with Marvel proper and reveal the Timebroker either to be some celestial entity in its own right, or Merlyn, reclaiming what is rightfully his.

This story, to me, is the culmination of a movement to finally explain away the contradictions of eXiles and put them up against a genuine Multiversal level threat. Not even Proteus was properly that. Jaspers was the original article. And my God, are they going to need to work hard on this one.

Fully expect well-loved team members to be literally dispersed into nothingness at a thoughts notice, at Jaspers' hand. And if that's a fully powered up Fury... well it only has one purpose.

[Daithi]

And then there was the nagging issues of how the Captain Britain Corps - as a pandimensional organization dedicated to watching for wrong-doing and imbalances across the Multiverse - or the Living Tribunal who had a similar role in some respects, had not come up against the eXiles and asked them just who the hell they thought they were to be interfering.

So why doesn't Psylocke ask them? Instead of just going with the flow. There's an opportunity to bring the two worlds together but not the way Claremont is doing it.

Claremont's sledgehammer approach of having Roma just pop up and the eXiles use crosstime, meh.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

So why doesn't Psylocke ask them? Instead of just going with the flow. There's an opportunity to bring the two worlds together but not the way Claremont is doing it.

Arguably, yes, she should be. It's kind of uncertain how much Psylocke actually knows about the Captain Britain Corps. She certainly hasn't had much direct dealings with them, but she certainly knows they exist, and has met met a few. By rights she aught to have brought it up in conversation.

But, you know, you might also have thought that through conversation in New Excalibur Nocturne might have mentioned to Dazzler that her ex-boyfriend, whom she believes is very dead indeed, isn't. :rolleyes:

This is an opportunity for Claremont to hopefully redeem himself. I dearly hope he doesn't waste it.

[MartinRedmond]

The art's horrible. Chris is doomed to artists who draw burly men and can't draw normal clothes if their lives depended on it.

[Rubicant]

But the bottom line is that several parts of eXiles simply doesn't fit in with the established terms of Marvel's multiverse. The concept that time can flow completely differently in another universe is not an alien concept, but in eXiles it has often been used as a cheap fix to allow use of other Marvel properties such as Marvel 2099, which were after all originally intended to be future timelines of the actual Marvel Universe.

It's things like this which pissed me off about eXiles. Not so much breaking established rules in Marvel - morseo bending them in a way which does a disservice to other stories in other titles long before the book came along.


Oh, you mean stuff like showing a Rachel Summers in the Vi-Lock Earth, when it's been established that her time-sliding eliminated all other references to her in the multiverse? But that aside, how in the hell is it that Nightcrawler has a young-adult daughter by any Marvel timescale? That's something that's bugged ever since they introduced Nocturne.

[jester1436]

Rachel Summers has appeared in plenty of "What If" stories too. I really don't like the whole "singular and special" approach Claremont took to her or attempted to take with Shadow King.

Nocturne comes from a reality further along on the time scale than 616.

[Flight]

i'm tired and tomorrow i have another day in hell at work,,,

hasta la bye, bye... LMFAO~~~~~

[ImpulseUCF]

The concept that time can flow completely differently in another universe is not an alien concept, but in eXiles it has often been used as a cheap fix to allow use of other Marvel properties such as Marvel 2099, which were after all originally intended to be future timelines of the actual Marvel Universe.Not a cheap fix at all. The concept of timelines moving differently is not at all new here and they weren't the "true" 2099. They were AUs and/or became so as soon as Proteus arrived and changed things.
It's things like this which pissed me off about eXiles. Not so much breaking established rules in Marvel - morseo bending them in a way which does a disservice to other stories in other titles long before the book came along.I'm not really sure how anything that happened in Exiles disregards or imposes over anything else that has already been established. They are just taking advantage of the infinitely divergent realities that comprise the mutliverse... whats the problem?
And then there was the nagging issues of how the Captain Britain Corps - as a pandimensional organization dedicated to watching for wrong-doing and imbalances across the Multiverse - or the Living Tribunal who had a similar role in some respects, had not come up against the eXiles and asked them just who the hell they thought they were to be interfering. It was more passable in my eyes before the Timebroker was revealed to be a facade - back then I was dearly hoping that it might actually link in with Marvel proper and reveal the Timebroker either to be some celestial entity in its own right, or Merlyn, reclaiming what is rightfully his.It's a big multiverse. Read: infinite. Not so much of a stretch that parts are unknown/unexplored, etc. Besides, the Captain Britain Corps has been busy being slaughtered by Albion, hasn't it?

Point is, there is nothing that contradicts anything else. It has all been crammed together and forced to interact, but they can call easily coexist.

Or, well, they COULD have, but with Bedard's mess and the reboot, who knows.

This story, to me, is the culmination of a movement to finally explain away the contradictions of eXiles and put them up against a genuine Multiversal level threat. Not even Proteus was properly that. Jaspers was the original article. And my God, are they going to need to work hard on this one.

Fully expect well-loved team members to be literally dispersed into nothingness at a thoughts notice, at Jaspers' hand. And if that's a fully powered up Fury... well it only has one purpose.[/QUOTE]

[jarrod]

Rachel Summers has appeared in plenty of "What If" stories too. I really don't like the whole "singular and special" approach Claremont took to her or attempted to take with Shadow King.
Rachel was at least clarified on panel... there might be other Rachels, but they're not really her variants. And really, it's a story that was in the works since 1988, I don't mind the follow up.

Farouk though, Claremont didn't script that one iirc and Yost was going from a very basic plot concept... I doubt Claremont was headed in that direction anyway... we've already seen SK variants, even in Claremont's own work. More likely it was a slip by Yost and easily swept under the rug as just another one of Farouk's self aggrandizing lies.

[slapstickinitiative]

Be thankful that Jaspers and the Fury are being included at all. Aside from Alan Davis and Chris Claremont. No one within Marvel has ever used either charactor.


A waste too given how powerful and ruthless both of them are.

[Novaya Havoc]

CC should use this event to take the opportunity to have Dazzler and Sage join the Exiles. That way Cornell won't have to flush them himself. :D

Plz. People that aren't CC actually want to use Dazzler. Sage, on the other hand, will follow CC until the end of his career.

[Novaya Havoc]

I know there are some eXiles fans out there who see the book as being completely and totally original, and often seem to believe that eXiles genuinely is the first title ever to have dealt with multiversal stories and therefore should be considered the be-all-and-end-all on the subject OF the Multiverse - in it's own right and with writers like Winnick having created a template which everybody else should adhere to and ever tamper with.

And for that reason they have there own specific reason to object to Claremont's approach to eXiles stories.

But the bottom line is that several parts of eXiles simply doesn't fit in with the established terms of Marvel's multiverse. The concept that time can flow completely differently in another universe is not an alien concept, but in eXiles it has often been used as a cheap fix to allow use of other Marvel properties such as Marvel 2099, which were after all originally intended to be future timelines of the actual Marvel Universe.

It's things like this which pissed me off about eXiles. Not so much breaking established rules in Marvel - morseo bending them in a way which does a disservice to other stories in other titles long before the book came along.

And then there was the nagging issues of how the Captain Britain Corps - as a pandimensional organization dedicated to watching for wrong-doing and imbalances across the Multiverse - or the Living Tribunal who had a similar role in some respects, had not come up against the eXiles and asked them just who the hell they thought they were to be interfering. It was more passable in my eyes before the Timebroker was revealed to be a facade - back then I was dearly hoping that it might actually link in with Marvel proper and reveal the Timebroker either to be some celestial entity in its own right, or Merlyn, reclaiming what is rightfully his.

This story, to me, is the culmination of a movement to finally explain away the contradictions of eXiles and put them up against a genuine Multiversal level threat. Not even Proteus was properly that. Jaspers was the original article. And my God, are they going to need to work hard on this one.

Fully expect well-loved team members to be literally dispersed into nothingness at a thoughts notice, at Jaspers' hand. And if that's a fully powered up Fury... well it only has one purpose.

I preferred the Exiles method of handling the multiverse because it was more esoteric. Well, before the crystal palace and the timebreakers reveal, that is. Something had to be done with the Timebroker at some point, but oi -- less. is. more.

I never cared for the CBCorps Roma/Merlin and all of that mess because it is far too ethnocentric. The Exiles' approach to the multiverse was more palatable to a greater audience.

YMMV.

[jarrod]

I preferred the cross-time caper myself. Best of both worlds really, with way better art and characters. <3 <3

[jester1436]

Rachel was at least clarified on panel... there might be other Rachels, but they're not really her variants. And really, it's a story that was in the works since 1988, I don't mind the follow up.


Eh, I still don't like her singular specialness. It's the one thing I really dislike about the character. For the majority of the Crosstime Caper stuff, it made sense for their to be now Rachel analogs - she's from the future, and she thus necessarily wouldn't exist in the Lightning Force or whatever.

However, you have things like Hyperstorm in Fantastic Four which requires an alternate Rachel to happen. Or Claremont including Rachel in The End series, which is never truly the end, means there has to be another alternate Rachel.

Of course a couple Exiles stories have included her too. And there's the "What If" issues, like the one where she's one of the last survivors of Atlantis Attacks but eventually gets whacked by Set too.

Personally, the singularity thing only works if Rachel really was that lame immaculate conception of the Phoenix, but that's never been revealed on panel has it?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Not a cheap fix at all. The concept of timelines moving differently is not at all new here and they weren't the "true" 2099. They were AUs and/or became so as soon as Proteus arrived and changed things.

Like I say, it's not a new theory, and one with some scientific backing - it's just what it became that was kind of cheap, in the end. 2099 is the obvious example, but it did become a tool by which the eXiles could literally visit any timeline from Marvel history, instead of just alternate realities. And that bugged me from the very first time I read the Dark Phoenix storyline mere issues into the title.

To me a truly great AU story is one that takes place in an alternate present, where what makes a universe different is what alternate events have occurred in the past. That kind of play on continuity interests me.

To say 'This Universe runs at a slightly different speed to our own - and that's why it's still ten years ago' is something I can reluctantly buy into, but when you start finding issues where the eXiles turn up in a new reality which nobody has seen in a while, largely because as the the big sticker on the cover tells you "It's Marvel 2099!" it becomes more of a marketing excercise than a story. And I can't stretch my disbelief that far.

There should e a very clear difference between an alternate reality story and a time travel story. eXiles continues to try to blur the two, and I personally don't like that. Because there IS a difference, and because to give the eXiles effective access to a time machine by a plot loop goes too far.

It's a big multiverse. Read: infinite. Not so much of a stretch that parts are unknown/unexplored, etc.

But that's the point. The multiverse is Infinite. But so are Merlyn and Roma. Yopu're talking about two of the nearest things Marvel has to Gods here. The entire point is that Merlyn and Roma see all, and that the Corps are near infinite in number themselves.

You need a reason as to how the eXiles had managed to evade being seen for so long, and why. No previous writer has sought fit to provide a logical reason why on either of those counts. I hope that Claremont does.

It's probavly a vague hope, but a hope nonetheless...:D


Besides, the Captain Britain Corps has been busy being slaughtered by Albion, hasn't it?

He certainly stated his will to, in his origin issue. But nothing has been seen about that, to date. Maybe that's something else for exploration here. But the liklihood of Albion taking out an infinite number of Captains? He's GOOD. Hes not THAT good.

Point is, there is nothing that contradicts anything else. It has all been crammed together and forced to interact, but they can call easily coexist.

Or, well, they COULD have, but with Bedard's mess and the reboot, who knows.

Yeah, that's part of the problem. Bedard's run really killed a lot of what I liked about eXiles. It continues to be a bit of a mess. The second the Timebroker was removed as an entity, the book died for me. :( Such a waste.

The problem though, as I say, is the non-explanation rather than justifying their role within the Multiverse. They've become a bit of a vague non-entity team because of it. Hopefully that might change.

[jarrod]

Personally, the singularity thing only works if Rachel really was that lame immaculate conception of the Phoenix, but that's never been revealed on panel has it?
Nope... but the fact that Rachel is indeed unique (which has been proven "on panel") sort of suggests that's the deal.

I like it though, makes Rachel something a bit different from the usual time stranded kid/analog (although she was the first in that area too). Ties in neatly with the Phoenix concepts too and helps define Rachel as something other than just another Phoenix at the same time.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I preferred the Exiles method of handling the multiverse because it was more esoteric. Well, before the crystal palace and the timebreakers reveal, that is. Something had to be done with the Timebroker at some point, but oi -- less. is. more.

I'd actually agree with you to an extent. They really had some purpose and gravitas in the beginning via the Timebroker. I always hoped he'd turn out to be something more, that there would be some greater plan.

Facially he even shares some similarities in structure with Merlyn. And a lot of his dark personality.

I never cared for the CBCorps Roma/Merlin and all of that mess because it is far too ethnocentric. The Exiles' approach to the multiverse was more palatable to a greater audience..

It depends. It's a far more powerful peace keeping force, it just never got used enough. And under Roma it was always a bit weaker and idealistic. That's why I want Merlyn back. Because he's a wrathful bastard. And you NEED a wrathful bastard ruling the Multiverse. :D

[jester1436]

Nope... but the fact that Rachel is indeed unique (which has been proven "on panel") sort of suggests that's the deal.

I like it though, makes Rachel something a bit different from the usual time stranded kid/analog (although she was the first in that area too).

But it's also been proved she's not entirely unique due to variant versions appearing in Exiles, X-Men: The End, What If and a Rachel's status as the mother of Hyperstorm. The whole point of being special and unique is there being only one, but the fact that other Rachels have appeared on panel without a full explanation of what makes Main Rachel so unique makes even the "Oh, I'm the only one of me" on panel thing seem questionable and ultimately retconnable, since only Claremont seems truly into that whole thing anyway.

It's just lame to be like, "Oh, I really am the only one, hey, ignore those other redheads behind the curtain, they're me, but not me!"

[jarrod]

But it's also been proved she's not entirely unique due to variant versions appearing in Exiles, X-Men: The End, What If and a Rachel's status as the mother of Hyperstorm. The whole point of being special and unique is there being only one, but the fact that other Rachels have appeared on panel without a full explanation of what makes Main Rachel so unique makes even the "Oh, I'm the only one of me" on panel thing seem questionable and ultimately retconnable, since only Claremont seems truly into that whole thing anyway.
No, it hasn't actually... the White Hot Room revealed to both Rachel and Betsy the depth and diversity of their variants throughout the multiverse. While Betsy had a limitless amount of analogs, Rachel had only her past selves, she's quite literally all there is. Stated clearly and unquestionably on panel, like it or not it's still canon.

[Novaya Havoc]

It depends. It's a far more powerful peace keeping force, it just never got used enough. And under Roma it was always a bit weaker and idealistic. That's why I want Merlyn back. Because he's a wrathful bastard. And you NEED a wrathful bastard ruling the Multiverse. :D

It has nothing to do with the method; everything to do with the origin. It's too ethnocentric -- read: British. It is less palatable to think the entire multiverse is protected by people who chose amulets over swords because of Merlin and his daughter and call themselves Captain Britains.

That's what I mean.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

The eXiles Rachel was almost certainly the result of a writer unaware of past work on Rachel. She'd been away for a while. It happens.

But as far as X-Men: The End goes, that is intended to be the 616 timeline a daced down the road. There is a very distinct difference between alternate reality and future time line stories. They are not the same thing. The Rachel in X-Men: The End is the Rachel we're reading now. Or at least she was when the book was written.

[Novaya Havoc]

No, it hasn't actually... the White Hot Room revealed to both Rachel and Betsy the depth and diversity of their variants throughout the multiverse. While Betsy had a limitless amount of analogs, Rachel had only her past selves, she's quite literally all there is. Stated clearly and unquestionably on panel, like it or not it's still canon.

Canon or not, it makes for poor storytelling.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

It has nothing to do with the method; everything to do with the origin. It's too ethnocentric -- read: British. It is less palatable to think the entire multiverse is protected by people who chose amulets over swords because of Merlin and his daughter and call themselves Captain Britains.

That's what I mean.

Maybe. But as far as Marvel goes that's where the universes join each other geographicaly.

I think an awful lot more time should be spent emphasizing the concept, rather than the nationality, here.

[jester1436]

The eXiles Rachel was almost certainly the result of a writer unaware of past work on Rachel. She'd been away for a while. It happens.

But as far as X-Men: The End goes, that is intended to be the 616 timeline a daced down the road. There is a very distinct difference between alternate reality and future time line stories. They are not the same thing. The Rachel in X-Men: The End is the Rachel we're reading now. Or at least she was when the book was written.

Rachel appeared or was involved with two seperate Exiles stories, in addition to being Hyperstorm's mother in a reality where she never traveled back in time. I'm sure an alternate Rachel will show up in the upcoming What If? Sh'iar blah blah special too.

Future time line stories are always alternate reality time line stories. Always. It's a subgenre if anything. The future that someone writes about now is not gonna be the future someone writes about when it's actually the future. Hence the X-Men having to fight against Rachel's future, Cable's future and Bishop's future, none of which are the same. They're all alternate possibilities.

Rachel's status as one and only just doesn't work for me due to its inherent story limitations. It means no one can do a different twist or take on the character, because a different twist or take shouldn't exist. They obviously do, and certainly will continue to show up though.

[jester1436]

No, it hasn't actually... the White Hot Room revealed to both Rachel and Betsy the depth and diversity of their variants throughout the multiverse. While Betsy had a limitless amount of analogs, Rachel had only her past selves, she's quite literally all there is. Stated clearly and unquestionably on panel, like it or not it's still canon.

Phoenix being Jean was canon. Then it wasn't. Then it was.

Canon is flexible.

[jarrod]

Rachel's status as one and only just doesn't work for me due to its inherent story limitations. It means no one can do a different twist or take on the character, because a different twist or take shouldn't exist. They obviously do, and certainly will continue to show up though.
That's illogical, especially when the canon even goes far enough to point out that there are in fact other Rachels... they're just not equivalent to this one. There's something different about her, something that makes her unique. It's overtly simple and doesn't in any way hinder alternative storyline possibilities.

Given your post history, I'd say this disinterest probably has more to with the source of concept versus the concept itself. Am I off? Were you also throwing a shitstorm when it was revealed Mojo and Longshot were similarly unique?

[jarrod]

Phoenix being Jean was canon. Then it wasn't. Then it was.

Canon is flexible.
Certainly... and until it's stated otherwise on panel, Rachel is 100% unique. Deal with it. :D

[Joe Acro]

To say 'This Universe runs at a slightly different speed to our own - and that's why it's still ten years ago' is something I can reluctantly buy into, but when you start finding issues where the eXiles turn up in a new reality which nobody has seen in a while, largely because as the the big sticker on the cover tells you "It's Marvel 2099!" it becomes more of a marketing excercise than a story. And I can't stretch my disbelief that far.

There should e a very clear difference between an alternate reality story and a time travel story. eXiles continues to try to blur the two, and I personally don't like that. Because there IS a difference, and because to give the eXiles effective access to a time machine by a plot loop goes too far.For the longest time, I just assumed the Exiles were traveling across reality and through time (if needed). But then they explicitly said that worlds could age quicker on panel. It's still hard to take.

But that's the point. The multiverse is Infinite.If it's infinite, why is it numbered?:p

[jarrod]

If it's infinite, why is it numbered?:p
Well... numbers are infinite too. :P


I'd like to see Ellis/Grant's multiverse concept of "the spiral" reconciled with Nexiles too actually.

[jester1436]

That's illogical, especially when the canon even goes far enough to point out that there are in fact other Rachels... they're just not equivalent to this one. There's something different about her, something that makes her unique. It's overtly simple and doesn't in any way hinder alternative storyline possibilities.

Given your post history, I'd say this disinterest probably has more to with the source of concept versus the concept itself. Am I off? Were you also throwing a shitstorm when it was revealed Mojo and Longshot were similarly unique?

I don't like it being applied to Longshot either. I couldn't give a shit about Mojo though, all his crap happens in the Mojoverse anyway, so it doesn't matter if there's only one of him. I'd basically assume Longshot, when entering the 616, became multiple and then singular again once the main one returned to the Mojoverse, it explains any alt. reality stories for him.

Why aren't all the other Rachels equivalent, if they're functioning in realities basically the same as 616? What makes the main Rachel so special? Without an actual explanation, it comes across as little more than the character getting puffed up by her creator without reason. "She's unique and special" is as good a reason as "because I said so."

And I presently don't like much in the way of Claremont's current work, but I thoroughly enjoy his work from the 70s into the early 90s. I even kind of liked his Fantastic Four run. Unfortunately, he's not the writer he once was and most of his stuff comes across as regurgitations of former glories instead of something unique, he's stretching out the same stories. The only faults I have with his older work (and definitely in his current work) are his inability to remain consistent in portraying characters he didn't create or have a hand in defining and his ridiculous tendency to make characters impossibly special. It's happend with their being only one Rachel, it's happened with Storm being the lust object of Arkon, Dracula and Dr. Doom, it's happened with Sage being Xavier's original student.

[Pro]

I'm sure an alternate Rachel will show up in the upcoming What If? Sh'iar blah blah special too.

What if stories are not the same as alternate timelines. If they were the multiverse would have been destroyed quite a while ago.

[Dizzy D]

Well... numbers are infinite too. :P


I'd like to see Ellis/Grant's multiverse concept of "the spiral" reconciled with Nexiles too actually.

I pity Captain Britain from Earth "such a large number it would take me the rest of the issue just to say. And I can't even call it Earth A Lot, because about three billion other Captain Britains already picked that shortcut."

[jarrod]

I don't like it being applied to Longshot either. I couldn't give a shit about Mojo though, all his crap happens in the Mojoverse anyway, so it doesn't matter if there's only one of him. I'd basically assume Longshot, when entering the 616, became multiple and then singular again once the main one returned to the Mojoverse, it explains any alt. reality stories for him.
How's that even work, going from multiple Shots to just one again? What do you mean "main one"? They'd all be "main ones"?

We've seen alt. Mojos too before btw.



Why aren't all the other Rachels equivalent, if they're functioning in realities basically the same as 616? What makes the main Rachel so special? Without an actual explanation, it comes across as little more than the character getting puffed up by her creator without reason. "She's unique and special" is as good a reason as "because I said so."
No, we know the reason... that admittedly hasn't been stated on panel, but we all know why Rachel's unique. It's also why houndized Cyclops couldn't track her, why Moira detected genetic anomalies in her DNA and why the stars started to die when Galactus attempted severing the Phoenix from her.

There was a story there being built towards, a story Claremont had in mind since he'd brought Ray to 616... and it involved a bit more than "she's special and unique because I said so".


And I presently don't like much in the way of Claremont's current work, but I thoroughly enjoy his work from the 70s into the early 90s. I even kind of liked his Fantastic Four run. Unfortunately, he's not the writer he once was and most of his stuff comes across as regurgitations of former glories instead of something unique, he's stretching out the same stories. The only faults I have with his older work (and definitely in his current work) are his inability to remain consistent in portraying characters he didn't create or have a hand in defining and his ridiculous tendency to make characters impossibly special. It's happend with their being only one Rachel, it's happened with Storm being the lust object of Arkon, Dracula and Dr. Doom, it's happened with Sage being Xavier's original student.
Nevermind with the defense, it was an unfair accusation of me to make. I apologize. Sorry.

[jarrod]

I pity Captain Britain from Earth "such a large number it would take me the rest of the issue just to say. And I can't even call it Earth A Lot, because about three billion other Captain Britains already picked that shortcut."
Lolz... I want a Milligan Captain Britian Corps mini, this sounds up his alley. With Dead Girl too. :D

[jester1436]

How's that even work, going from multiple Shots to just one again? What do you mean "main one"? They'd all be "main ones"?

We've seen alt. Mojos too before btw.


Mojo outside of the confines of Mojoverse while Mojo was appearing anywhere else? I mean, it's not nearly as difficult to have him positioned as singular as it is with Rachel or Longshot. And what I mean by Longshot is, there was a singular Longshot that entered the 616 as the main one, but due to the whole unlimited possibilities of what could happen, there was a version in other realties too, sort of syndicated to other realities while the original runs on 616.


No, we know the reason... that admittedly hasn't been stated on panel, but we all know why Rachel's unique. It's also why houndized Cyclops couldn't track her, why Moira detected genetic anomalies in her DNA and why the stars started to die when Galactus attempted severing the Phoenix from her.

There was a story there being built towards, a story Claremont had in mind since he'd brought Ray to 616... and it involved a bit more than "she's special and unique because I said so".


It doesn't matter what a creator plans, it matters what a creator publishes. X-Treme was originally planned as the third Summers wasn't he? But now it's been revealed that it's really Vulcan. Penance wasn't originally planned to be Monet, but that's what happened. All of the hints that she's the immaculately conceived Phoenix or that she's really Wolverine's kid or whatever twists that could take don't matter when they lead nowhere.


Nevermind with the defense, it was an unfair accusation of me to make. I apologize. Sorry.

No problem.

[Pro]

I pity Captain Britain from Earth "such a large number it would take me the rest of the issue just to say. And I can't even call it Earth A Lot, because about three billion other Captain Britains already picked that shortcut."

Agreed. Personally i prefer Roma and Merlin guarding a large portion of the multiverse rather than all of it. They may know what's out there much the same way as we can look at a world map and they might be able to define problems by studying the map but infinite is infinte and there is no way i'm buying they have representation in all of the universe.
It would literally require infinite time just to contact people in those infinite timelines, let alone train them or keep track of them.

Remember also that Merlin himself, for all his power, started out as a humanoid with a very definitive birthdate and his race likely took as long to develop as ours. More likely they guard those timelines that are permutations of earth 616 going back to a certain date when they started diverging into separate timelines. Much easier to set up a multichronal agency if you set it up in year 100 for example and then sit back and watch year 100 split off into billions of chronal tangents with each timeline already having its own alternate of the agent you trained in year 100.

Anyone still following me ... ?

Also some timelines would spawn a universe that is impossible to live in. How would they place a captain britain in a universe that supports no life?
Following quantum mechanics alternate realities are created and destroyed constantly simply because their structure does not unfold into a stable space/time continuum and collapses into nothingness again. From a quantum physical standpoint time itself is an aspect of a universe, not a force in and of itself that exists separate from space.

Anyone still following me .. ? :)

The fact that we've never seen an earth 10000+ makes me think that while Roma and Merlin may be able to scan the multiverse and pick up on the big picture they only actually control a localised number of timelines.

[jester1436]

There's another group of realities watched over by R'ma, Roma's reptilian counterpart, obviously.

And another, where Romo is in charge.

[jarrod]

Mojo outside of the confines of Mojoverse while Mojo was appearing anywhere else? I mean, it's not nearly as difficult to have him positioned as singular as it is with Rachel or Longshot. And what I mean by Longshot is, there was a singular Longshot that entered the 616 as the main one, but due to the whole unlimited possibilities of what could happen, there was a version in other realties too, sort of syndicated to other realities while the original runs on 616.
It still doesn't make sense... why would the others dissappear when our 616 pretty boy went back to the Mojoverse? That's not how alternate timelines work, there is no "main one", they're all equal variants, going in limitless directions.

At least Rachel's percieved (if not actual) variants were explained on panel...


It doesn't matter what a creator plans, it matters what a creator publishes. X-Treme was originally planned as the third Summers wasn't he? But now it's been revealed that it's really Vulcan. Penance wasn't originally planned to be Monet, but that's what happened. All of the hints that she's the immaculately conceived Phoenix or that she's really Wolverine's kid or whatever twists that could take don't matter when they lead nowhere.
Granted... but it sort of pokes holes through your "special because I said so" nonsense. There's clearly more to it than that.

And unlike those other danglers you mentioned, this one hasn't been resolved...

[jarrod]

Agreed. Personally i prefer Roma and Merlin guarding a large portion of the multiverse rather than all of it. They may know what's out there much the same way as we can look at a world map and they might be able to define problems by studying the map but infinite is infinte and there is no way i'm buying they have representation in all of the universe.
It would literally require infinite time just to contact people in those infinite timelines, let alone train them or keep track of them.

Remember also that Merlin himself, for all his power, started out as a humanoid with a very definitive birthdate and his race likely took as long to develop as ours. More likely they guard those timelines that are permutations of earth 616 going back to a certain date when they started diverging into separate timelines. Much easier to set up a multichronal agency if you set it up in year 100 for example and then sit back and watch year 100 split off into billions of chronal tangents with each timeline already having its own alternate of the agent you trained in year 100.

Anyone still following me ... ?

Also some timelines would spawn a universe that is impossible to live in. How would they place a captain britain in a universe that supports no life?
Following quantum mechanics alternate realities are created and destroyed constantly simply because their structure does not unfold into a stable space/time continuum and collapses into nothingness again. From a quantum physical standpoint time itself is an aspect of a universe, not a force in and of itself that exists separate from space.

Anyone still following me .. ? :)

The fact that we've never seen an earth 10000+ makes me think that while Roma and Merlin may be able to scan the multiverse and pick up on the big picture they only actually control a localised number of timelines.
All that makes logical sense and I'd agree. We do know that Merlyn was at it for several millenia iirc though, he set up the Corps to watch out for Necrom originally.... so it's probably that there's quite a number of them out there.

[jester1436]

It still doesn't make sense... why would the others dissappear when our 616 pretty boy went back to the Mojoverse? That's not how alternate timelines work, there is no "main one", they're all equal variants, going in limitless directions.

At least Rachel's percieved (if not actual) variants were explained on panel...


When a television show is syndicated, it's the same show. The 616 is his major network, while the rest are getting the syndicated version. It's all the same artificial man, the same one made in the Mojoverse, just found on multiple networks/realities like an episode of "Friends" or "Everybody Loves Raymond." At some point, he gets canceled or retooled. Whatever.

Also, arguing what facilitates being the "main" is ridiculously pedantic. You know what I mean. The "main" version is actually featured in books that connect to the Marvel Universe people read about in all the other books. Even within the Marvel Universe, the 616 reality pinpoints the linchpin of everything. Otherwise, Scarlet Witch going nuts there wouldn't have led to Meggan being used to plug an interdimensional hole there, because it was an event happening in multiple realities besides.



Granted... but it sort of pokes holes through your "special because I said so" nonsense. There's clearly more to it than that.

And unlike those other danglers you mentioned, this one hasn't been resolved...

But it doesn't poke holes in anything. She's special because she's special, what makes her so has been teased at, but there's no actual canon explanation for why all those other Rachels don't equal the Rachel that appeared in Uncanny X-Men and Excalibur. It's all what Claremont planned or what fans know or guess, which is ultimately meaningless to the actual character.

[Dizzy D]

Agreed. Personally i prefer Roma and Merlin guarding a large portion of the multiverse rather than all of it.

Actually, we know that they don't have representation everywhere: worlds without a Captain Britain (the Broken world where the first James Jaspers and Fury were seen or the world of Kymri, the female Nightcrawler-lookalike pirate), worlds where the Captain Britain died (a world seen during the crosstime caper where Meggan is the only survivor, having taken the guise of Captain Britain but not his place within the corp) and worlds where the Captain Britain has gone rogue (Sat-Yr-9's world) . I bet Merlyn and Roma have some type of monitoring/scanning device to find potential problematic worlds and create a Captain Britain there, giving them a large body of agents, but not infinite.

As for the infinity of the Captain Britain Corps right now; apart from Albion massacring them, a large part of them were also killed by Mastermind (no-prizing for me why Justicar Bull is suddenly a member of the Corps during House of M)

[Harlock]

I hate to say it, but Claremont just isn't the same to me anymore. I don't like the artwork much either. Heck, I didn't like Vol. 1 of Excalibur.

[Babylon23]

Captain Britain Corps. Saturnyne. Roma. Merlyn. Jaspers. The Fury.

Yep, this book has pretty much everything I've wanted to see in the regular NEX title. I couldn't care less about Dazzler, Juggernaut, Nocturne, etc. I came to NEX to see Captain Britain and Otherworld. Glad to see Claremont's bringing it all back in one (hopefully) huge story.

[Tazirai]

Maybe Psylocke will finally get a new oufit...With all the reality altering and such..

[Tazirai]

Maybe Psylocke will finally get a new oufit...With all the reality altering and such..

[Lord Moon]

Actually, we know that they don't have representation everywhere: worlds without a Captain Britain (the Broken world where the first James Jaspers and Fury were seen)

Captain UK, surely?

[Dizzy D]

Captain UK, surely?

You are right. I forgot that she original was from there. Chalk that one up in the Captain Britain buggered off without being replaced column then.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

For the longest time, I just assumed the Exiles were traveling across reality and through time (if needed). But then they explicitly said that worlds could age quicker on panel. It's still hard to take.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks it.

I'd like to see Ellis/Grant's multiverse concept of "the spiral" reconciled with Nexiles too actually.

I'm not actually that familliar with that concept. Can you ellaborate?

I pity Captain Britain from Earth "such a large number it would take me the rest of the issue just to say. And I can't even call it Earth A Lot, because about three billion other Captain Britains already picked that shortcut."

Lol. Yeah, I bet he's a miserable sod. I would be. :D

Lolz... I want a Milligan Captain Britian Corps mini, this sounds up his alley. With Dead Girl too. :D

I dunno. After his X-Men run I've lost almost all confidence in Milligan. It does sound like his cup of tea, but at the same point these days I think he'd just spend his time taking the piss out of it.

There's another group of realities watched over by R'ma, Roma's reptilian counterpart, obviously.

And another, where Romo is in charge.

Lol, but no. There is only one Roma and only one Merlyn. They're Otherworld nationals, and there is only one Otherworld. That's kind of the point.

I hate to say it, but Claremont just isn't the same to me anymore. I don't like the artwork much either. Heck, I didn't like Vol. 1 of Excalibur.

Heresy! How could anybody dislike Alan Davis on Excalibur?

Captain Britain Corps. Saturnyne. Roma. Merlyn. Jaspers. The Fury.

Yep, this book has pretty much everything I've wanted to see in the regular NEX title. I couldn't care less about Dazzler, Juggernaut, Nocturne, etc. I came to NEX to see Captain Britain and Otherworld. Glad to see Claremont's bringing it all back in one (hopefully) huge story.

Yeah, it puzzles me as to why we didn't SEE more of this IN New Excalibur. Sad, really.

Captain UK, surely?

I was going to say. We haven't seen her properly in while, Captain Uk. A shame. Great character.

[Sentinel K]

So...

Does Captain Britain's job despcription not cover Northern Ireland and Captain UK's does?

[Karl H]

So...

Does Captain Britain's job despcription not cover Northern Ireland and Captain UK's does?

ha ha ha ha ha...

I wanna see a Captain East Anglia. He can drive a magic tractor or something.

[Dizzy D]

I'm not actually that familliar with that concept. Can you ellaborate?

The parallel worlds lie in some form of spiral that ascends from the Lower Earths (terrible, chaotic places where life is nearly impossible and the creatures constantly change and adapt to survive) to the Higher Earths (paradise-like worlds that are nearly perfect, but therefore unchanging and very set in their ways.) Earth as we know it lies somewhere in the middle.

[Karl H]

The parallel worlds lie in some form of spiral that ascends from the Lower Earths (terrible, chaotic places where life is nearly impossible and the creatures constantly change and adapt to survive) to the Higher Earths (paradise-like worlds that are nearly perfect, but therefore unchanging and very set in their ways.) Earth as we know it lies somewhere in the middle.

I enjoyed that about Ellis' X-man run actually.

[Dizzy D]

So...

Does Captain Britain's job despcription not cover Northern Ireland and Captain UK's does?

I bet Captain Empire can be a real bitch about it to all the other Captain Britains.

"Who here can travel half the world freely without losing his powers, raise your hands. Nobody else? Nobody? LOSERS!"

[The Sword Is Drawn]

So...

Does Captain Britain's job despcription not cover Northern Ireland and Captain UK's does?

Good question. Somehow, though, if there was bad shit going down in Northern Ireland I think it unlikely that Brian would be like "No! It's not under my juristriction..." :D

I wanna see a Captain East Anglia. He can drive a magic tractor or something.

He'd still not be as ace as Captain Midlands!

The parallel worlds lie in some form of spiral that ascends from the Lower Earths (terrible, chaotic places where life is nearly impossible and the creatures constantly change and adapt to survive) to the Higher Earths (paradise-like worlds that are nearly perfect, but therefore unchanging and very set in their ways.) Earth as we know it lies somewhere in the middle.

I vaguely remember that. Was it from X-Man?

I bet Captain Empire can be a real bitch about it to all the other Captain Britains.

"Who here can travel half the world freely without losing his powers, raise your hands. Nobody else? Nobody? LOSERS!"

Ha ha ha! :D Genius.

[Dizzy D]

I vaguely remember that. Was it from X-Man?

Yes, it was.

[Pro]

I vaguely remember that. Was it from X-Man?

It was also mentioned in x-men 402: "Until the breach is sealed this chaos wave will keep expanding along the sidereal string to the farthest reaches of imagination, from the sundered planes to the sublimity-perhaps even to the ascension itself".

[Pro]

The Ascension is possibly where we saw all those phoenixes fly off to at the end of Here Comes Tomorrow and may well be the same thing as the White Hot Room, where reality as we know it, or even can imagine it to be, ends and changes into something that we simply cannot grasp intellectually. As Roma mentioned:The farthest reaches of imagination and beyond that lies the Ascension. It may also be where The One Above All resides, a being similar to God that the Living Tribunal has referred to on occassion.

[Brett P]

What the devil is going on with TJ having the lame-ass hair streaks back?

Ohh I'm not looking forward to what this and Exiles #100 are gonna mean for her, Blink and the rest of the crew...

[Lord Moon]

You are right. I forgot that she original was from there. Chalk that one up in the Captain Britain buggered off without being replaced column then.

To be fair, she couldn't really be replaced as her reality was switched off.

[Beast]

Maybe Psylocke will finally get a new oufit...With all the reality altering and such..
I'd like to see a return of the House of M one. Bring that back. The one in the dreamscape with Dave and Paty Cockrum wouldn't be bad in a pinch either. At least over what we have now.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I'd like to see a return of the House of M one. Bring that back. The one in the dreamscape with Dave and Paty Cockrum wouldn't be bad in a pinch either. At least over what we have now.

I agree.

Basically most alternatives to the ninja bakini are okay in my mind - providing that they REMOVE the ninja bikini.:D

[GoingGreen]

Looks horrible. Can't believe he's revamping Exiles, either. Ughs.

[DDM]

To be fair, she couldn't really be replaced as her reality was switched off.

Although Captain UK's reality was obliterated by Mandragon in an attempt to save the multiverse from Jasper's & the Fury, Roma placed Linda on Sat-Yr-9's Earth. It is possible for Roma to bring Captain UK back anytime.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Although Captain UK's reality was obliterated by Mandragon in an attempt to save the multiverse from Jasper's & the Fury, Roma placed Linda on Sat-Yr-9's Earth. It is possible for Roma to bring Captain UK back anytime.

Is she still assigned to Sat-yr-9's Earth. I can't recall any indication that she wasn't, but of course Sat-yr-9's not there anymore...

[DDM]

Is she still assigned to Sat-yr-9's Earth. I can't recall any indication that she wasn't, but of course Sat-yr-9's not there anymore...

I got the impression Linda is still on Sat-Yr-9's Earth when she talked with Captain Britain on Otherworld during Alan Davis' run on Excalibur.

Captain UK believes Sat-Yr-9 is dead when she killed the poor nerd who entered her room inbetween Excalibur 3-5 off panel to escape her prison to Earth 616.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I got the impression Linda is still on Sat-Yr-9's Earth when she talked with Captain Britain on Otherworld during Alan Davis' run on Excalibur.

Me too. It's really hard to say, because she's only made a handfull of appearances since then. And she hasn't mentioned anything about her situation in them.

[Faded]

Dying your eyebrows is dangerous.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Dying your eyebrows is dangerous.

:confused: Has something happemed to you, Faded?

[Uncle Nobs]

Forget the gripes about Dazzler's look. I hate Captain Britain's pants.

He's not supposed to look "street" in costume. Ever.

He's Captain-friggin'-Britain.

[Uncle Nobs]

And forgive me for missing countless bad comics, but how exactly is that supposed to be Thunderbird?

[Faded]

:confused: Has something happemed to you, Faded?

LMAO! I'm not crazy.

[Beast]

And forgive me for missing countless bad comics, but how exactly is that supposed to be Thunderbird?
It's Thunderbird after being turned into a Horseman of Apocalypse.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Forget the gripes about Dazzler's look. I hate Captain Britain's pants.

He's not supposed to look "street" in costume. Ever.


He's Captain-friggin'-Britain.

Blame Michael Ryan for the redesign. Personally I don't understand why he's not wearing his fathers Corpsman uniform anymore.

And forgive me for missing countless bad comics, but how exactly is that supposed to be Thunderbird?

He's Thunderbird from a dimension where he was turned into a horseman of Apocalypse. He's been seriously modified and he's a founding eXile.

[Christopher O]

Forget the gripes about Dazzler's look. I hate Captain Britain's pants.

He's not supposed to look "street" in costume. Ever.

He's Captain-friggin'-Britain.
Aw, I love Captain Britain's design. It was the only thing about the book that I liked when I attempted to read it.

[Novaya Havoc]

Dying your eyebrows is dangerous.

And it's a total monobrow. Ok, like Kajol can rock a monobrow, but Dazzler can NOT, nor would she EVER.

[Frank]

How can Rachel be unique to the multiverse when she doesn't even know what she's going to do the next moment she breath like most human beings. The Multiverse is the infinite possibility of actions taken by most beings in the Universe. I wake up, I decide to wear a dress and not shave this morning, people at work will look at me differently and my boss will think about it twice before giving me the promotion. If Rachel has no alternate self that would mean that her every actions are predetermined. And that's impossible because every thing around the World she lives in is an infinite area of possibilities.

I would favor that Phoenix-the entity-is unique but not any individuals.

[DDM]

How can Rachel be unique to the multiverse when she doesn't even know what she's going to do the next moment she breath like most human beings. The Multiverse is the infinite possibility of actions taken by most beings in the Universe. I wake up, I decide to wear a dress and not shave this morning, people at work will look at me differently and my boss will think about it twice before giving me the promotion. If Rachel has no alternate self that would mean that her every actions are predetermined. And that's impossible because every thing around the World she lives in is an infinite area of possibilities.

I would favor that Phoenix-the entity-is unique but not any individuals.

Rachel Summers is unique because she is Phoenix. There's only one Phoenix for the multiverse & Rachel is it.

[Brian M.]

Rachel Summers is unique because she is Phoenix. There's only one Phoenix for the multiverse & Rachel is it.

Then what's Jean doing right now?

[Keith_Martineau]

Well obviously Jean is a Phoenix and the main MU phoenix as Marvels continuity has evolved.

But DDM chooses to ignore that because either he doesn't like it, or doesn't like the writers who have changed continuity, or only likes things written by Claremont, or a combination of those options.

I think I'll just ignore that WW2 happened. There have been no world wars since the Great War that resulted in the creation of the League of Nations.

[Affinity]

And it's a total monobrow. Ok, like Kajol can rock a monobrow, but Dazzler can NOT, nor would she EVER.

LOLOL

I think this art is ridiculously mediocre. I guess if he makes deadlines that's good for Marvel (two issues a month, right?) but the quality is nothing great. Haun or Eaton would have been fine, but I guess Marvel is not "wasting" money on this.

[Dizzy D]

I got the impression Linda is still on Sat-Yr-9's Earth when she talked with Captain Britain on Otherworld during Alan Davis' run on Excalibur.

Captain UK believes Sat-Yr-9 is dead when she killed the poor nerd who entered her room inbetween Excalibur 3-5 off panel to escape her prison to Earth 616.

I'm sure that Brian filled her in off-panel that Sat-Yr-9 is still alive.

[DDM]

Well obviously Jean is a Phoenix and the main MU phoenix as Marvels continuity has evolved.

But DDM chooses to ignore that because either he doesn't like it, or doesn't like the writers who have changed continuity, or only likes things written by Claremont, or a combination of those options.

I think I'll just ignore that WW2 happened. There have been no world wars since the Great War that resulted in the creation of the League of Nations.


Jean is Phoenix, but she is also a very dead Phoenix; whereas, Rachel is very much alive. Rachel is unique because as Claremont has been hinting for sometime Rachel is the result of the Phoenix being a part of her since her inception. Chris Claremont keeps using this everytime he writes Rachel.

It's not about ignoring anything. But the Phoenix's story has a lot of fat & that has to be cut away--such as Greg Pak's Phoenix Endsong--to get to the meat of matter. And at the very heart of Phoenix's story is about transformation, ascention into a being who is beyond human, yet remains human. This dichotomy is what drives Phoenix as a character.

Rachel is unique because there is not another alternate version of her. Why? She's Phoenix.

[Babylon23]

Forget the gripes about Dazzler's look. I hate Captain Britain's pants.

He's not supposed to look "street" in costume. Ever.

He's Captain-friggin'-Britain.

I could not agree more. The Alan Davis designed Captain Britain outfit is one of the best in comics. Michael's Ryan's design looks like a cheap, tacky imitation.

[PatchMadripoor]

just a thought... Proteus vs. Mad Jim Jaspers.....

[DDM]

just a thought... Proteus vs. Mad Jim Jaspers.....

Jaspers would win since Proteus would burn out his host's body (unless Proteus possessed Jaspers).

[Novaya Havoc]

LOLOL

I think this art is ridiculously mediocre. I guess if he makes deadlines that's good for Marvel (two issues a month, right?) but the quality is nothing great. Haun or Eaton would have been fine, but I guess Marvel is not "wasting" money on this.

They're promoting it though, which surprises me. Methinks it's all a part of the "softening blow severance pagage" because NEX was revoked from him. Putting a Winick issue in Exiles 100, relaunching Exiles, and promoting this mess.

Telling you. "Dark Phoenix Saga" card.

[Nachturne]

Rachel is unique because there is not another alternate version of her. Why? She's Phoenix.

Except that there are alternate versions of her.

[Beast]

Except that there are alternate versions of her.
No, there are other Rachels in the multiverse. They arn't counterparts of this Rachel though.

[Frank]

Jean is Phoenix, but she is also a very dead Phoenix; whereas, Rachel is very much alive. Rachel is unique because as Claremont has been hinting for sometime Rachel is the result of the Phoenix being a part of her since her inception. Chris Claremont keeps using this everytime he writes Rachel.

It's not about ignoring anything. But the Phoenix's story has a lot of fat & that has to be cut away--such as Greg Pak's Phoenix Endsong--to get to the meat of matter. And at the very heart of Phoenix's story is about transformation, ascention into a being who is beyond human, yet remains human. This dichotomy is what drives Phoenix as a character.

Rachel is unique because there is not another alternate version of her. Why? She's Phoenix.

Maybe I missed on a lot of stories of the last ten years or so because Rachel is not Phoenix. She was Phoenix back in Excalibur but isn't at this point in time. Presently she is plain old telekinetic Rachel. With SOME Phoenix motifs when she uses her power.

But she's not Phoenix.

[DDM]

Maybe I missed on a lot of stories of the last ten years or so because Rachel is not Phoenix. She was Phoenix back in Excalibur but isn't at this point in time. Presently she is plain old telekinetic Rachel. With SOME Phoenix motifs when she uses her power.

But she's not Phoenix.

Why is Rachel manifesting a Phoenix tattoo as "Marvel Girl?" She also wields the same powers as Phoenix just differently with a Phoenix tattoo & shadow over her whole body instead of the Phoenix Effect:

Rachel is certainly Phoenix given this manifestation further magnified when there are only past versions of Rachel Summers & not alternate versions in the White Hot Room:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/45/Rachel_Summers.jpg/250px-Rachel_Summers.jpg

Rachel is still Phoenix even when she's Marvel Girl...

[Brian M.]

Why is Rachel manifesting a Phoenix tattoo as "Marvel Girl?" She also wields the same powers as Phoenix just differently with a Phoenix tattoo & shadow over her whole body instead of the Phoenix Effect:

Rachel is certainly Phoenix given this manifestation further magnified when there are only past versions of Rachel Summers & not alternate versions in the White Hot Room:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/45/Rachel_Summers.jpg/250px-Rachel_Summers.jpg

Rachel is still Phoenix even when she's Marvel Girl...

So what happens when Jean comes back...she will come back you know? Is she no longer Phoenix? Doesn't that screw it up even more?

[jester1436]

Rachel is a baby Phoenix.

Jean is a mommy Phoenix.

[Novaya Havoc]

Why is Rachel manifesting a Phoenix tattoo as "Marvel Girl?" She also wields the same powers as Phoenix just differently with a Phoenix tattoo & shadow over her whole body instead of the Phoenix Effect:

Rachel is certainly Phoenix given this manifestation further magnified when there are only past versions of Rachel Summers & not alternate versions in the White Hot Room:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/45/Rachel_Summers.jpg/250px-Rachel_Summers.jpg

Rachel is still Phoenix even when she's Marvel Girl...

Rachel manifests the phoenix because creators like CC thought we would buy it and have her replace Jean in our hearts.

This gay remains unconvinced.

Rachel would be better off as a straight TK. Or just really own the MG moniker and be a straight TP, so she could get back to stealthy TP basics. Like Monet in X-Factor.

Monet in X-Factor, even with the unnecc superstrength/flight >>>>>>>> Rachel. You don't need the Phoenix to legitimize, yo.

[jester1436]

Jaspers would win since Proteus would burn out his host's body (unless Proteus possessed Jaspers).

Except Proteus is currently inside Morph, who is immune due to his malleable body.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I could not agree more. The Alan Davis designed Captain Britain outfit is one of the best in comics. Michael's Ryan's design looks like a cheap, tacky imitation.

It will always be the definitive design, yes. It's just a shame, in my eyes, that his Father's uniform has been discarded. it was a nice development, which Claremont doesn't seem interested in.

just a thought... Proteus vs. Mad Jim Jaspers.....

Jaspers would win. Every time. Even with Proteus in Morph's body.

Except Proteus is currently inside Morph, who is immune due to his malleable body.

Yes. But Jaspers can literally turn another person's body into something else. He has no hesitation in doing that, or moral code to stop him. He just does things like that to amuse him. Morph may be malleable, but it won't do him mutch good if Jaspers decided he'd rather turn him into another Fury...

[Daithi]

Rachel would be better off as a straight TK. Or just really own the MG moniker and be a straight TP, so she could get back to stealthy TP basics. Like Monet in X-Factor.


Or like Jean in Revolution. I see your plan. You want this to happen just so you can say "she's copying Jean again!!!"



Monet in X-Factor, even with the unnecc superstrength/flight >>>>>>>> Rachel. You don't need the Phoenix to legitimize, yo.

Isn't the super-strength/flight from her TK?

On and Rachel doesn't need the Phoenix. It's hardly helping Jean at all now is it?

[Rubicant]

Yes. But Jaspers can literally turn another person's body into something else. He has no hesitation in doing that, or moral code to stop him. He just does things like that to amuse him. Morph may be malleable, but it won't do him mutch good if Jaspers decided he'd rather turn him into another Fury...

Well, he could do that, but it might not stick necessarily. When Jamie Braddock started warping Meggan's form in Excalibur, she eventually broke out of his control and assumed her natural form. Then she beat the tar out of him. I think metamorphs are basically reality warpers of their own bodies and that might be why Jaspers would be better off just ripping Proteus out of Morph and disrupting his energy form.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Well, he could do that, but it might not stick necessarily. When Jamie Braddock started warping Meggan's form in Excalibur, she eventually broke out of his control and assumed her natural form. Then she beat the tar out of him. I think metamorphs are basically reality warpers of their own bodies and that might be why Jaspers would be better off just ripping Proteus out of Morph and disrupting his energy form.

In the case of Meggan, though, we're not just talking meta-morph, we're talking about a mutant capable of getting the very environment around her to help. She can get in sync with her surroundings on an elemental level.

I miss Meggan. Here's hoping that she might show up at some point during this series.

[Rubicant]

In the case of Meggan, though, we're not just talking meta-morph, we're talking about a mutant capable of getting the very environment around her to help. She can get in sync with her surroundings on an elemental level.

I miss Meggan. Here's hoping that she might show up at some point during this series.

True, but did she know about the elemental part of her powers at that point? I can't remember. She mentioned that the only reason he was able to warp her was because she had been drugged.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

True, but did she know about the elemental part of her powers at that point? I can't remember. She mentioned that the only reason he was able to warp her was because she had been drugged.

At that point? No. She didn't.

However there's quite a difference between Jamie and Jaspers. Both are quite mad, but Jaspers uses his powers in a far more malevolent manner, and knows just how to use them.

Jamie still believes that he's playing some kind of game.

[Loki]

No, it hasn't actually... the White Hot Room revealed to both Rachel and Betsy the depth and diversity of their variants throughout the multiverse. While Betsy had a limitless amount of analogs, Rachel had only her past selves, she's quite literally all there is. Stated clearly and unquestionably on panel, like it or not it's still canon.

Since we know there are other Rachels (and some are off-shoots of the 616-based Rachel, so they are her - look at the What If Rachels, also seen on panel) I'd take that to mean that the Rachel who hosts the Phoenix force is unique - every time her timeline diverges, the non-616 loses the connection to the force, while the one in 616 retains it.

[Loki]

I don't like it being applied to Longshot either. I couldn't give a shit about Mojo though, all his crap happens in the Mojoverse anyway, so it doesn't matter if there's only one of him. I'd basically assume Longshot, when entering the 616, became multiple and then singular again once the main one returned to the Mojoverse, it explains any alt. reality stories for him.


We've only really got Mojo's word that he is a unitary being (read: only one version of him across the multiverse), and Mojo is unbelievably egotistical, so its entirely possible he was lying/deluded when he made that claim.

[Loki]

Agreed. Personally i prefer Roma and Merlin guarding a large portion of the multiverse rather than all of it. They may know what's out there much the same way as we can look at a world map and they might be able to define problems by studying the map but infinite is infinte and there is no way i'm buying they have representation in all of the universe.
It would literally require infinite time just to contact people in those infinite timelines, let alone train them or keep track of them.

Remember also that Merlin himself, for all his power, started out as a humanoid with a very definitive birthdate and his race likely took as long to develop as ours. More likely they guard those timelines that are permutations of earth 616 going back to a certain date when they started diverging into separate timelines. Much easier to set up a multichronal agency if you set it up in year 100 for example and then sit back and watch year 100 split off into billions of chronal tangents with each timeline already having its own alternate of the agent you trained in year 100.

Anyone still following me ... ?

Also some timelines would spawn a universe that is impossible to live in. How would they place a captain britain in a universe that supports no life?
Following quantum mechanics alternate realities are created and destroyed constantly simply because their structure does not unfold into a stable space/time continuum and collapses into nothingness again. From a quantum physical standpoint time itself is an aspect of a universe, not a force in and of itself that exists separate from space.

Anyone still following me .. ? :)

The fact that we've never seen an earth 10000+ makes me think that while Roma and Merlin may be able to scan the multiverse and pick up on the big picture they only actually control a localised number of timelines.

Overall, I'd agree. Merlin and Roma keep an eye on (note, they do not rule) a large, immense, huge number of realities, but not all. There are simply too many.

[Loki]

There's another group of realities watched over by R'ma, Roma's reptilian counterpart, obviously.

And another, where Romo is in charge.

All Romas are Roma, and all Merlins are Merlyn. Read his handbook profile. Merlyn and Roma are gestalt entities, linked across all their counterparts in each reality, pretty much the exact opposite of unitary beings such as Eternity or Immortus.

[Loki]

When a television show is syndicated, it's the same show. The 616 is his major network, while the rest are getting the syndicated version. It's all the same artificial man, the same one made in the Mojoverse, just found on multiple networks/realities like an episode of "Friends" or "Everybody Loves Raymond." At some point, he gets canceled or retooled. Whatever.

Also, arguing what facilitates being the "main" is ridiculously pedantic. You know what I mean. The "main" version is actually featured in books that connect to the Marvel Universe people read about in all the other books. Even within the Marvel Universe, the 616 reality pinpoints the linchpin of everything. Otherwise, Scarlet Witch going nuts there wouldn't have led to Meggan being used to plug an interdimensional hole there, because it was an event happening in multiple realities besides.

Presumably it did happen, in various permutations, across multiple realities - that might even be why it caused the ructions it did in Otherworld. And presumably in those other realities, local versions of Meggan were usually available to plug the gap, because they were still resident in their home reality, unlike 616-Meggan (and where there was no local Meggan, someone else filled the role, at least until enough of the gaps were plugged to stabilise the larger multiverse).

[Loki]

Actually, we know that they don't have representation everywhere: worlds without a Captain Britain (the Broken world where the first James Jaspers and Fury were seen or the world of Kymri, the female Nightcrawler-lookalike pirate), worlds where the Captain Britain died (a world seen during the crosstime caper where Meggan is the only survivor, having taken the guise of Captain Britain but not his place within the corp) and worlds where the Captain Britain has gone rogue (Sat-Yr-9's world) . I bet Merlyn and Roma have some type of monitoring/scanning device to find potential problematic worlds and create a Captain Britain there, giving them a large body of agents, but not infinite.

As for the infinity of the Captain Britain Corps right now; apart from Albion massacring them, a large part of them were also killed by Mastermind (no-prizing for me why Justicar Bull is suddenly a member of the Corps during House of M)

While I agree that there will be places where Merlyn and Roma have no representatives, remember that the Corps isn't their only set of agents. They also created the Black Knights and have used them too. There's bound to be others we don't know about. The Corps are just the most visible.

[Loki]

Maybe Psylocke will finally get a new oufit...With all the reality altering and such..

Jamie seemingly made her immune to further reality altering, so no such luck I suspect. :P

[Loki]

So...

Does Captain Britain's job despcription not cover Northern Ireland and Captain UK's does?

While I know this is meant as a joke, it's still worth clarifying - despite the names, each Captain protects a geographic area defined by an unspecified but large radius out from the lighthouse focus point, and that area includes Ireland, both Northern and Republic.

[Loki]

Is she still assigned to Sat-yr-9's Earth. I can't recall any indication that she wasn't, but of course Sat-yr-9's not there anymore...

No, she'd been reassigned by the time of Brian's trial (in the middle-40s Excalibur issues).

[Loki]

Me too. It's really hard to say, because she's only made a handfull of appearances since then. And she hasn't mentioned anything about her situation in them.

She mentioned the number of the Earth she was assigned to during Brian's trial. It wasn't the same number that Kaptain Briton and Sat-Yr-9 come from. Hence she has been reassigned.

[Loki]

Yes. But Jaspers can literally turn another person's body into something else. He has no hesitation in doing that, or moral code to stop him. He just does things like that to amuse him. Morph may be malleable, but it won't do him mutch good if Jaspers decided he'd rather turn him into another Fury...

I agree Jaspers would win eventually, but I suspect it wouldn't be an easy fight; Proteus (or Jamie Braddock) are powerful enough reality warpers to block the direct attempts of others to warp them (look at Jamie, who happily ignored the Scarlet Witch's reality warping - to quote Mythbusters, "I reject your reality and substitute my own"). Possibly the reason the 3 of them are so powerful is their lack of morals, and in Jamie and Jaspers cause, lack of sanity. Scarlet Witch's reality warping only really got really powerful when she went gaga; being sane means you know how the world is meant to work and so don't make it work in insane ways, while being moral means you restrict some of the nastier things you could do.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I agree Jaspers would win eventually, but I suspect it wouldn't be an easy fight; Proteus (or Jamie Braddock) are powerful enough reality warpers to block the direct attempts of others to warp them (look at Jamie, who happily ignored the Scarlet Witch's reality warping - to quote Mythbusters, "I reject your reality and substitute my own"). Possibly the reason the 3 of them are so powerful is their lack of morals, and in Jamie and Jaspers cause, lack of sanity. Scarlet Witch's reality warping only really got really powerful when she went gaga; being sane means you know how the world is meant to work and so don't make it work in insane ways, while being moral means you restrict some of the nastier things you could do.

Yeah, I'd totally agree that sanity is the key factor here. If you had the grounding in sane reality you might stop to think about your actions.

It certainly wouldn't be a quick or easy fight, but I'd still expect Jaspers to come out on top. He's not undefeatable, but in a battle between him and Proteus he's just that little more ruthless and able with his powers.

[ImpulseUCF]

Rachel Summers is unique because she is Phoenix. There's only one Phoenix for the multiverse & Rachel is it.False. You either did not read or are choosing to ignore Morrison's reveal that the Phoenix force/corps has its embodiment/portal to each universe through an individual. Jean was the Phoenix force's manifestation/entrance into 616. Other universes have their own manifestation. Much better than "Jean is a goddess. No, just kidding. Yes, she is. No, just kidding, it's Rachel. Actually, it's Jean. No, it's not..."

Well obviously Jean is a Phoenix and the main MU phoenix as Marvels continuity has evolved.

But DDM chooses to ignore that because either he doesn't like it, or doesn't like the writers who have changed continuity, or only likes things written by Claremont, or a combination of those options.Yep. Seems that way. Jean is the "doorway" or avatar or whatever of the Phoenix in 616. Neither she nor Rachel are the one, true only manifestation of the Phoenix.

Jaspers would win since Proteus would burn out his host's body (unless Proteus possessed Jaspers).Morph's body does not burn out. Stated on panel in no uncertain terms.

Jaspers would win. Every time. Even with Proteus in Morph's body.How do you figure?
Jaspers can literally turn another person's body into something else. He has no hesitation in doing that, or moral code to stop him. He just does things like that to amuse him. Morph may be malleable, but it won't do him mutch good if Jaspers decided he'd rather turn him into another Fury...Why can't Proteus? Assuming Proteus' personality dominates the body and Morph's is dormant, Proteus is just as depraved. He twists reality and consumes people for fun/sustenance and has a chip on his shoulder. It could be an interesting fight.

I admit that my knowledge of Jaspers is all but non-existent, but it seems Proteus VS Jaspers would be two depraved reality warpers with no moral scruples battling to the death. It seems evenly matched to me. Poor Morph stands to lose out for their trouble, though. :(

[Daithi]

I admit that my knowledge of Jaspers is all but non-existent, but it seems Proteus VS Jaspers would be two depraved reality warpers with no moral scruples battling to the death. It seems evenly matched to me. Poor Morph stands to lose out for their trouble, though. :(

First one to warp the other and take away their powers wins.


Yep. Seems that way. Jean is the "doorway" or avatar or whatever of the Phoenix in 616.

I don't believe GM ever stated anything about the multiverse and the Phoenix. Just that certain people can ascend to Phoenix levels.

[ImpulseUCF]

First one to warp the other and take away their powers wins.Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Jaspers attacks Morph's body but isn't prepared for Proteus in his energy form, who inhabits him. Maybe Albion can be around and use the damn sword of power to stab Jaspers when possessed by Proteus and finally put an end to both of the bastards. Hopefully Morph won't be killed in the process.

There we go, yes.. find a practical use for all the Albion stuff in NEX, fix Morph, and have an epic throwback battle for the Excalibur fans. I am well pleased with my idea. :)

[Loki]

I admit that my knowledge of Jaspers is all but non-existent, but it seems Proteus VS Jaspers would be two depraved reality warpers with no moral scruples battling to the death. It seems evenly matched to me.

I know both characters very well. Jaspers would win. Proteus would hold his own for a while, but Jaspers isn't just totally immoral, he's utterly insane. Proteus had the power to affect reality in a large vicinity around him; Jaspers could transform the entire world right from the off, spread out to engulf an entire dimension given a little time, and then would have spilled over into the multiverse. Proteus was vulnerable to metal; Jaspers was virtually indestructible (so long as he had reality to work with). It would be an epic battle, and not all one sided, but at the end of the day, Jaspers would win.

[Loki]

Yeah, I'd totally agree that sanity is the key factor here. If you had the grounding in sane reality you might stop to think about your actions.

It certainly wouldn't be a quick or easy fight, but I'd still expect Jaspers to come out on top. He's not undefeatable, but in a battle between him and Proteus he's just that little more ruthless and able with his powers.

I'd agree with all that. Another interesting thought - surely it can't be coincidence that three of Earth's most powerful reality warpers all hail from the UK (Jamie Braddock, Jaspers, Proteus)? Perhaps the vicinity to the reality interface either titled the odds slightly in favor of people gaining such powers, or increased the power level of reality warpers born within its field?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I'd agree with all that. Another interesting thought - surely it can't be coincidence that three of Earth's most powerful reality warpers all hail from the UK (Jamie Braddock, Jaspers, Proteus)? Perhaps the vicinity to the reality interface either titled the odds slightly in favor of people gaining such powers, or increased the power level of reality warpers born within its field?

Could well be. It would certainly make sense. Kind of like fall out from Earth borders wth Otherworld.

[Rubicant]

I'd agree with all that. Another interesting thought - surely it can't be coincidence that three of Earth's most powerful reality warpers all hail from the UK (Jamie Braddock, Jaspers, Proteus)? Perhaps the vicinity to the reality interface either [tilted] the odds slightly in favor of people gaining such powers, or increased the power level of reality warpers born within its field?

I thought there was an issue of X-Man where it was mentioned that there was a significant convergence of ley lines in that area of the world. In New Age terms, that would mean that psychic or magical energy is pretty thick there. Stonehenge and other places of supernatural significance in the UK attest to that. You could be on to something with that.

[Steven F.]

Why is Rachel manifesting a Phoenix tattoo as "Marvel Girl?" She also wields the same powers as Phoenix just differently with a Phoenix tattoo & shadow over her whole body instead of the Phoenix Effect:

Rachel is certainly Phoenix given this manifestation further magnified when there are only past versions of Rachel Summers & not alternate versions in the White Hot Room:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/45/Rachel_Summers.jpg/250px-Rachel_Summers.jpg

Rachel is still Phoenix even when she's Marvel Girl...

Except, that, in current canon, according to everyone that matters, Rachel is not Phoenix.

[DDM]

Except, that, in current canon, according to everyone that matters, Rachel is not Phoenix.

If she's not Phoenix, why does Rachel manifest the Phoenix symbol over her eye?

[tetragene]

LOL--I can't get past the hypocricy of some of the SAME damn posters who would scream bloody murder at Ben and I for discussing Dazzler in NEX threads (a book in which she actually APPEARS in) posting about Rachel in a mini which we KNOW she's not involved in...

thanks for making my day :D

[Daithi]

Anybody else getting the feeling that having multiple Fury's will result in them being reduced to Hand Ninjas? In that they'll be easy to kill and lose the mystique of the original Fury?

[ImpulseUCF]

If she's not Phoenix, why does Rachel manifest the Phoenix symbol over her eye?I believe she has a fractional piece of the Phoenix force bonded to her as indicated in recent issues of Uncanny, as does Korvus' sword. Not sure what relevance the phoenix has to the premise of an endangered mutant species amongst a world that hates and fears them or to Claremont's Die By The Sword mini, though....

[jarrod]

Even within the Marvel Universe, the 616 reality pinpoints the linchpin of everything. Otherwise, Scarlet Witch going nuts there wouldn't have led to Meggan being used to plug an interdimensional hole there, because it was an event happening in multiple realities besides.
Wanda's woogie was unique to 616, but that was just by chance. Similar reality warps have happened in other dimensions before, the Jaspers warp for example, which also threatened the multiverse.


But it doesn't poke holes in anything. She's special because she's special, what makes her so has been teased at, but there's no actual canon explanation for why all those other Rachels don't equal the Rachel that appeared in Uncanny X-Men and Excalibur. It's all what Claremont planned or what fans know or guess, which is ultimately meaningless to the actual character.
Essentially, you're crucifying Claremont for a lack of deeper reasoning, but at the same time ignoring the well established deeper reasoning behind these events. So what if it didn't happen on panel, we still know the "why" here and it clearly involves more than "special because I said so". And it's not like this WHR scene is the only evidence, we have events during the Cross-Time Caper, Days of Future Present and early Excalibur to back this plot up.

Worse still, you have no problem defending Winnick's even less defendable claim of a unique Mojoverse and all characters involved. Which actually amounted to "special because I said so". Seriously, get over it.


In the case of Meggan, though, we're not just talking meta-morph, we're talking about a mutant capable of getting the very environment around her to help. She can get in sync with her surroundings on an elemental level.
I'd say Meggan's also a class above other meta-morphs... her control goes down to the molecular level, she even copied the X-Men so closely (with Rachel's help) that she aped their X-gene mutations as well.


Since we know there are other Rachels (and some are off-shoots of the 616-based Rachel, so they are her - look at the What If Rachels, also seen on panel) I'd take that to mean that the Rachel who hosts the Phoenix force is unique - every time her timeline diverges, the non-616 loses the connection to the force, while the one in 616 retains it.
It's tough to reconcile with the "different direction" theory of multiple timelines... probably better to just avoid the issue, as none of the 616 books have ever encountered that probalem directly with Rachel.


False. You either did not read or are choosing to ignore Morrison's reveal that the Phoenix force/corps has its embodiment/portal to each universe through an individual. Jean was the Phoenix force's manifestation/entrance into 616. Other universes have their own manifestation. Much better than "Jean is a goddess. No, just kidding. Yes, she is. No, just kidding, it's Rachel. Actually, it's Jean. No, it's not..."
Gee, guess that's why Morrison showed us Quintin Quire among the Phoenix corps in full Phoenix garb.

Methinks maybe you should read Morrison's run a bit more closely. ;P

[Phil Hunn]

Gee, guess that's why Morrison showed us Quintin Quire among the Phoenix corps in full Phoenix garb.

Don't remind me. Why that annoying little punk was included in that story, I'll never know...

[Babylon23]

I miss Meggan. Here's hoping that she might show up at some point during this series.

Ha! I knew you'd start to miss Meggan eventually. I remember when you were all "Brian needs to stand on his own" and "Meggan should stay away for a while". I knew you'd come around to my way fo thinking sooner or later.:D

I miss Meggan too. Excailbur just hasn't been the same without her. I'd love to see her return.

[Affinity]

Gee, guess that's why Morrison showed us Quintin Quire among the Phoenix corps in full Phoenix garb.

Methinks maybe you should read Morrison's run a bit more closely. ;P

Don't remind me. Why that annoying little punk was included in that story, I'll never know...

*Quentin
And wasn't it obvs it was just another alternate reality QQ?

I liked him in that I hated him. His Endsong appearance was retarded, but he was, like you said, this snotty little punk in the end.

ALSO I really do not understand that there are no alternate Rachels. What?

[Beast]

Don't remind me. Why that annoying little punk was included in that story, I'll never know...
Thankfully the Phoenix Corps has been retconned due to Phoenix: Endsong.

The only good thing that came out of Phoenix: Endsong or Warsong.

Other than clarifying that Jean's not dead, just recovering her fragments from the WHR.

[ImpulseUCF]

Methinks maybe you should read Morrison's run a bit more closely. ;PTwo points. First: Jean was dead. Second: Why do you assume he was to be deployed in 616 just because he was from there?

More to the point, regardless of the number of different Phoenix in a given reality, the point is the fact that there are multiple manifestations.

[Syzygy]

Not another debate on the true nature of the Phoenix?:eek:

Excuse me while I open up a bottle of Jack Daniels. I don't want to be sober for this....:D

[ImpulseUCF]

Not another debate on the true nature of the Phoenix?:eek:

Excuse me while I open up a bottle of Jack Daniels. I don't want to be sober for this....:DHeh. Good point. Consider it dropped from my end. There are too many different portrayals and interpretations to make arguing the point worthwhile.

So about this miniseries... I'm simultaneously happy/sad that there is a TJ/T-Bird reunion but Claremont is writing it. :(

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Anybody else getting the feeling that having multiple Fury's will result in them being reduced to Hand Ninjas? In that they'll be easy to kill and lose the mystique of the original Fury?

There is that danger, but lets not forget that the original Fury was the entity in its purest form, all Furys since have deliberately not been anywhere near the original's peak. A legion of fledgling Furys will not each be as powerful as the original, and as long as that is understood I don;'t think it devalues the original too much.

Wanda's woogie was unique to 616, but that was just by chance. Similar reality warps have happened in other dimensions before, the Jaspers warp for example, which also threatened the multiverse.

Technically the Jaspers Warp happened in 616, too. But not on a scale which changed the whole world, just Britain, placing Jaspers as prime minister over night, and all superhumans into concentration camps. It was the fallout from that warp which created the Warp Children (Effectionately known as 'Warpies').

I'd say Meggan's also a class above other meta-morphs... her control goes down to the molecular level, she even copied the X-Men so closely (with Rachel's help) that she aped their X-gene mutations as well.

She does have an awful lot of potential, yes. It's a shame that so many writers who had the chance to use her simply used her as Brian's arm candy, and didn't explore her actual abilities.

Ha! I knew you'd start to miss Meggan eventually. I remember when you were all "Brian needs to stand on his own" and "Meggan should stay away for a while". I knew you'd come around to my way fo thinking sooner or later.:D

I miss Meggan too. Excailbur just hasn't been the same without her. I'd love to see her return.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... So I'm entitled to a change of mind, aren't I? :D

I don't know, I think the last two years have help people see Brian as an entity in his own right. I still wish Claremont had done more on a personal level, with him, but I think it's helped remind people of who and what he is.

I wouldn't actually want to see Meggan paired directly back with Brian upon returning, mind. I want to see how the void has changed her. For a mutant who is so naturally effected by becoming in-sync with her surrounding, several months surrounded by whatever exists between dimensions could have changed her on so many levels. I just want to see how that actually effects her character, and her powers. Just going back to Brian and Meggan as a happy couple would totally bypass that and ignore such a potentially strong storyline.

[CmX]

I miss Meggan, :(

If Cornell decides to have Brian on his new team, I hope to God that Meggan re-joins Excalibur. Fuck Courtney Ross, that's some generic ass shit right there.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I miss Meggan, :(

If Cornell decides to have Brian on his new team, I hope to God that Meggan re-joins Excalibur. Fuck Courtney Ross, that's some generic ass shit right there.

I hope that Cornell resolves that mess, to be honest. A malevolent Sat-yr-9 is always useful as a credible foe.

It's all down to how Meggan gets brought baxck, of course.

[jarrod]

Two points. First: Jean was dead. Second: Why do you assume he was to be deployed in 616 just because he was from there?

More to the point, regardless of the number of different Phoenix in a given reality, the point is the fact that there are multiple manifestations.
Wrong on both points. Again. :P

Jean wasn't "dead" at that point, she'd been reborn in the future already. And Quentin "elevated" in 616, Beast basically said as much... not a stretch to figure it was the same one, it'd be a farther narrative reach to assume otherwise honestly.

No where in his run did Morrison state or even imply that there was simply one elevation per timestream... indeed his Phoenix revisioning reconciled the existance of multiple Phoenix simultaneously and made logical sense of it. Seriously, reread his run, it's all in there.

[DungeonmasterJim]

Anybody else getting the feeling that having multiple Fury's will result in them being reduced to Hand Ninjas? In that they'll be easy to kill and lose the mystique of the original Fury?


Yup. Just like how Galactus lost his luster for me. Gets sickening when everyone leaves him or beats him up.

DM Jim

[ImpulseUCF]

Wrong on both points. Again. :P

Jean wasn't "dead" at that point, she'd been reborn in the future already. And Quentin "elevated" in 616, Beast basically said as much... not a stretch to figure it was the same one, it'd be a farther narrative reach to assume otherwise honestly.

No where in his run did Morrison state or even imply that there was simply one elevation per timestream... indeed his Phoenix revisioning reconciled the existance of multiple Phoenix simultaneously and made logical sense of it. Seriously, reread his run, it's all in there.At the current time of QQ's ascension, she was dead. Read it, it's there. :)

In any case, the exact quantity of manifestations per reality/timestream is wholly irrelevant to the major point (which you've been kind enough to ignore). That being that it is absurd to assume there is only one singular manifestation in the entirety of the multiverse. That is patently false as evidenced by Morrison's run. It also seems we are in agreement here, so let's stop beating up this poor little straw man. Admittedly, it's been a few years since I read Morrison's run and I don't have time to reread my entire comic collection, anyway.

I believe my idea about Jean being the Phoenix force's connection to 616 came from a previous discussion on the nature of Jean and was an attempt to reconcile the notion that Jean is Phoneix is Jean is Phoenix with Morrison's Phoenix corps. IT's been a few years since that discussion, so I don't remember the finer points.

In any case, Rachel =/= only Phoenix. It's inconsistent with established continuity in main MU books and Exiles, etc.

[jarrod]

At the current time of QQ's ascension, she was dead. Read it, it's there. :)
Ah, I thought you meant once she met him in the WHR during HCT. Although, uh... Jean didn't die until the very end of Planet X, well after Quentin had "elevated". :/


In any case, the exact quantity of manifestations per reality/timestream is wholly irrelevant to the major point (which you've been kind enough to ignore). That being that it is absurd to assume there is only one singular manifestation in the entirety of the multiverse. That is patently false as evidenced by Morrison's run. It also seems we are in agreement here, so let's stop beating up this poor little straw man. Admittedly, it's been a few years since I read Morrison's run and I don't have time to reread my entire comic collection, anyway.

I believe my idea about Jean being the Phoenix force's connection to 616 came from a previous discussion on the nature of Jean and was an attempt to reconcile the notion that Jean is Phoneix is Jean is Phoenix with Morrison's Phoenix corps. IT's been a few years since that discussion, so I don't remember the finer points.

In any case, Rachel =/= only Phoenix. It's inconsistent with established continuity in main MU books and Exiles, etc.
Er, I thought you were arguing for a single manifestation per timesteam? Sorry if I confused things, if so we're arguing the same point.

Part of the genius of Morrison's Phoenix revision imo was once again tying it to mutation... it simultaneously reconnected the concept to the X-Men directly (rather than it being some benevolent cosmic parrot with a thing for redheads) while also explaining the existance of the varying multiple Phoenix we'd seen over the years (Jean, Rachel, Maddie, Giraud, Feron, etc). Plus, it perfectly dovetailed with Claremont's original, more spiritual intentions for the concept... really amazing work, and it's a shame Pak/editorial have since butchered it so badly. :(


I'd like to see the concept of the Phoenix reconciled with Merlyn/Roma's corps as well, as the serve pretty similar functions (though the Phoenix has been doing it faaaaaaar longer). The Phoenix *was* involved with Merlyn at the begining though (with Feron and Necrom)... maybe we could see the Phoenix once again establishing it's authority throughout the multiverse (similar to how Roma's been messing the Exiles)?