New Exiles [Archive] - Page 2 - Comic Book Resources Forums

Phil Hunn

09-27-2007, 12:43 PM

Who else would use Sage? Has anyone aside from Grant Morrison, since she got SAGED?

Tony Lee wrote an eight-page espionage-esque story with her in an issue of X-Men Unlimited a while back. I quite liked it, to be honest (I liked the idea of Sage being able to use her power of total recall to watch movies while she was doing other stuff).

Those designs look soooo Xtreme XMen 2.0.

Sage looks horrid... lol so does Morph and Psylocke is just getting (or supposedly was) yet another update on her tired Hand outfit.

It's not funny because it's true. Let that damn bathing suit go, Marvel! For the love of Zod, let it go!

Srsly, those are worse than the green Hand costumes, and they were vomit inducing! FAIL! Two thumbs way down.

Well, Betsy's tired rerun of a costume aside, I'm actually quite liking Sabretooth & Sage's outfits. Sage does look hawtsome with short hair, after all.

Cornell could though...

Yes, yes he could. Excuse me, I'm just going to go and cry for a bit... :(

Beast

09-27-2007, 01:02 PM

Cornell could though...
Not really.

Phil Hunn

09-27-2007, 01:19 PM

Not really.

You say that without actually providing any justification. Cornell has frequently proven his quality as a writer, and Psylocke sorely needs a fresh pair of eyes to give her stalling character some much-needed oomph. Being so uber-powerful as to be able to use her telekinesis to turn invisible is definitely not the ideal course for her.

ImpulseUCF

09-27-2007, 01:38 PM

You say that without actually providing any justification. Cornell has frequently proven his quality as a writer, and Psylocke sorely needs a fresh pair of eyes to give her stalling character some much-needed oomph. Being so uber-powerful as to be able to use her telekinesis to turn invisible is definitely not the ideal course for her.You know, I really don't see what the big deal about her turning invisible is. I mena, I use my telekinesis to turn invisible all the time. It's quite simple.

:D

Blade X

09-27-2007, 01:44 PM

You say that without actually providing any justification. Cornell has frequently proven his quality as a writer, and Psylocke sorely needs a fresh pair of eyes to give her stalling character some much-needed oomph. Being so uber-powerful as to be able to use her telekinesis to turn invisible is definitely not the ideal course for her.

And you're saying Cornell can write Psylocke really well without providing any evidence that he can. Remember, just because a writer writes SOME characters well, DOES NOT mean that he will or can write ALL characters well, and vis versa.

jarrod

09-27-2007, 01:57 PM

And you're saying Cornell can write Psylocke really well without providing any evidence that he can. Remember, just because a writer writes SOME characters well, DOES NOT mean that he will or can write ALL characters well, and vis versa.
Well, he hasn't written a bad female lead yet, he's got that going for him at least... I think he could do wonders with Betsy and/or Tessa honestly. He certainly did justice to Wisdom and Dai.

Phil Hunn

09-28-2007, 03:09 PM

And you're saying Cornell can write Psylocke really well without providing any evidence that he can.

Thing is, Beast was apparently discounting Cornell purely because He Isn't Claremont. That's not good. Yes, Cornell is not Claremont, but that's what certain characters need at this point (notably Psylocke and Sage).

Beast

09-28-2007, 03:13 PM

Thing is, Beast was apparently discounting Cornell purely because He Isn't Claremont. That's not good. Yes, Cornell is not Claremont, but that's what certain characters need at this point (notably Psylocke and Sage).
No, I was discounting Cornell because Psylocke won't fit the book.

Pach!

09-28-2007, 03:32 PM

No, I was discounting Cornell because Psylocke won't fit the book.

Why?

.

Phil Hunn

09-28-2007, 03:32 PM

No, I was discounting Cornell because Psylocke won't fit the book.

I stand corrected on that, then.

As for Psylocke not fitting the book... I'd rather she wasn't there at all so we could avoid such problems, to be honest, but there we go. C'est la vie.

jester1436

09-28-2007, 04:48 PM

No, I was discounting Cornell because Psylocke won't fit the book.

Why not?

She certainly fits a team back on her own earth with her brother more so than an interdimensional team with Sage and a bunch of people she barely knows doing ridiculous things.

Hell, even if Brian isn't there, Betsy would be more at home in Excalibur than Exiles.

Blade X

09-28-2007, 05:06 PM

Why not?

She certainly fits a team back on her own earth with her brother more so than an interdimensional team with Sage and a bunch of people she barely knows doing ridiculous things.

Hell, even if Brian isn't there, Betsy would be more at home in Excalibur than Exiles.

Betsy's father is from another dimension/parallel Earth. This makes her a PERFECT fit for NEW EXILES. And for the record, I DO NOT want her on the NEW EXILES roster (I rather have NTH MAN on the team as the resident ninja), but I'm not going to pitch a fit if she is on the team.

DDM

09-28-2007, 05:32 PM

Betsy's father is from another dimension/parallel Earth. This makes her a PERFECT fit for NEW EXILES. And for the record, I DO NOT want her on the NEW EXILES roster (I rather have NTH MAN on the team as the resident ninja), but I'm not going to pitch a fit if she is on the team.

Otherworld is a whole separate dimension, but it is unique since the guardians & the eccentric bureaucracy takes care of the Multiverse. Roma & Merlyn are natives of Otherworld as was Psylocke & Captain Britain's father; whereas, Majestrix Opal Luna Saturnyne is native of Earth-9, but works to maintain the order of Earth-616's reality on Otherworld.

Psylocke & Otherworld is a natural fit for Exiles.

I'm not surprised Sage is going to be included too since Chris Claremont is nowhere near done with her character either.

tetragene

09-28-2007, 06:06 PM

Otherworld is a whole separate dimension, but it is unique since the guardians & the eccentric bureaucracy takes care of the Multiverse. Roma & Merlyn are natives of Otherworld as was Psylocke & Captain Britain's father; whereas, Majestrix Opal Luna Saturnyne is native of Earth-9, but works to maintain the order of Earth-616's reality on Otherworld.

Psylocke & Otherworld is a natural fit for Exiles.

I'm not surprised Sage is going to be included too since Chris Claremont is nowhere near done with her character either.

When do you hypothesize he will be done? Or at least halfway done...since he only keeps piling mysteries and the unexplained on the character instead of ever explaining/closing anything with her...

Phil Hunn

09-28-2007, 06:16 PM

When do you hypothesize he will be done? Or at least halfway done...since he only keeps piling mysteries and the unexplained on the character instead of ever explaining/closing anything with her...

Indeed. I actually used to like her (her double-act with Bishop back in the day was one of my favourite platonic X-relationships, in fact), but she has become something very unappealling to me.

jester1436

09-28-2007, 06:25 PM

Beast

09-28-2007, 06:29 PM

Betsy is 616 through and through, it doesn't matter who her daddy is or where he's from, she'd obviously be at home in her world's England more so than bouncing around realities with Sage and the X-Treme X-iles gang.
Why? She's a action-junkie. Plus she's been a member of the Captain Britain Corps. So protecting the Multiverse isn't like it's a new development. Just because you don't like the direction, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

jester1436

09-28-2007, 06:43 PM

Why? She's a action-junkie. Plus she's been a member of the Captain Britain Corps. So protecting the Multiverse isn't like it's a new development. Just because you don't like the direction, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. I never said that. I know she's been her world's Captain Britain and that she's an action junkie. She's also recently been dead and hasn't made any meaningful connections with anybody since her return. Ooh, Beast smacked her on the ass and she had limited chemistry paired with X-23, but she's been going nowhere fast with Claremont. Nothing truly memorable has happened with the character. She briefly shows up with her brother and nothing worthwhile came of that, because poof, she's off in Exiles, filling a seat in Limbo until Claremont came on. And now, she's effectively done nothing. She met the Cockrums and somehow turned invisible without precision controlled telekinesis. She's immune to control and has a locked off mind, but it's all been booking yo-yo-ing and power tweaks. What is actually happening with the character? The same thing holds for Sage. What meaningful things has she done in NEX? What is Claremont even doing with the character that necessitates her being dragged like a busted rag doll into every book he writes?

Quite frankly, it makes PLENTY of sense. Betsy has her Otherworld Multiversal connections, but she's not an Otherworld Multiversal character. It's great that Claremont has favorite characters to write, but his portrayals of Betsy (and Sage) totally lack any meaning. It's just power trips and craziness. It's also totally cliche for something bright shiny and new, for Claremont to bring in two of his most haggard characters. The multiverse is a big place, he should be reaching out and come up with someone new. At least then, the fan back and forth would get a little fresher, even if the writing didn't.

tetragene

09-28-2007, 07:21 PM

Amen to that, jester. Psylocke and Brian's reunion in NEX was so weak. "You were dead!" "Now I'm not" "How X-Men" ...are you kidding? Then Psylocke and Dazz act as if they don't know each other. Psylocke's made no mention of her past with Longshot. I know some will say, "you can't waste panel time acknowledging things/continuity that don't matter." But...one is her BROTHER and the other two were good friends she has while she was an outlaw/cooped up in Australia. lol--and the Beast/Psylocke scene in Uncanny was so uneccessarily lame (as were the attempts at "wow, Emma burned" thought/comments Psylocke had in the same issue). But yeah--nothing worthwhile is being done with her other than giving her powers she really shouldn't have (invisibility...) and seemingly pushing her to the forefront of a team book. I mean, allegedly a "greater picture" is just around the corner. But that same "wait and see" attitude has been there since Claremont brought Psylocke back--and then put her on Exiles--and now readies to launch New Exiles with her...

Add Sage into the mix and you are really multiplying problems...

Blade X

09-28-2007, 09:01 PM

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. I never said that. I know she's been her world's Captain Britain and that she's an action junkie. She's also recently been dead and hasn't made any meaningful connections with anybody since her return. Ooh, Beast smacked her on the ass and she had limited chemistry paired with X-23, but she's been going nowhere fast with Claremont. Nothing truly memorable has happened with the character. She briefly shows up with her brother and nothing worthwhile came of that, because poof, she's off in Exiles, filling a seat in Limbo until Claremont came on. And now, she's effectively done nothing. She met the Cockrums and somehow turned invisible without precision controlled telekinesis. She's immune to control and has a locked off mind, but it's all been booking yo-yo-ing and power tweaks. What is actually happening with the character? The same thing holds for Sage. What meaningful things has she done in NEX? What is Claremont even doing with the character that necessitates her being dragged like a busted rag doll into every book he writes?

Quite frankly, it makes PLENTY of sense. Betsy has her Otherworld Multiversal connections, but she's not an Otherworld Multiversal character. It's great that Claremont has favorite characters to write, but his portrayals of Betsy (and Sage) totally lack any meaning. It's just power trips and craziness. It's also totally cliche for something bright shiny and new, for Claremont to bring in two of his most haggard characters. The multiverse is a big place, he should be reaching out and come up with someone new. At least then, the fan back and forth would get a little fresher, even if the writing didn't.

Remember, over the last 2 years CC's original plans/plots for both Psylocke and Sage have either been altered or abandoned due to him taking a leave of absence from his books due to his sudden illness and being fired from the books he was writing.

Brian Cronin

09-29-2007, 02:55 AM

Things I don't want any more of in this thread:

1. Talk of Claremont's sales records as an indication of ANYthing. Using sales numbers as proof of quality is just a weak argument, and it is almost never firmly applied across the board, leading to ridiculous, "What about when Person X was replaced due to sales?," "No, no - that wasn't sales, that was ___. Unlike when Person Y was replaced due to sales." "No, that was because of ____. Now Person Z! THAT person was replaced due to sales!" Etc.

2. As an addendum to #1 - no "The book is going to be cancelled" stuff. How mean-spirited is THAT? When the book comes out, tell us how bad it is - cool. When you hear of plans for the book, tell us how you think they sound bad - cool. Root for a book to be cancelled? Way too petty for here.

3. These personal back and forths - just argue the darned points, and not get into these personal insults routine. I rightfully should ban, like, five people for their behavior in this thread, but eh, you folks have basically been quite nice about this stuff for the last few months, so I won't - but don't repeat it.

-Brian

jarrod

09-29-2007, 10:29 AM

Why? She's a action-junkie. Plus she's been a member of the Captain Britain Corps. So protecting the Multiverse isn't like it's a new development. Just because you don't like the direction, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.
Likewise she's been a STRIKE agent, worked for RCX, has legacy membership to the Hellfire Club and been an X-Man... she'd be perfectly at home in Excalibur as well. I'd just like to see the twins on the same team for once... an Excalibur lineup more reminsicent of the Ellis Days of Future Tense storyline (both in membership and sensibility) would be ideal for Cornell.

And while I can understand how Betsy could work in a cross-time context (Moore did lay out the implication that the twins were engineered by their father to one day take Merlyn's place and house his power, watching over the multiverse), I think her handling in Exiles has been rather cold, especially compared to the pretty good stuff Claremont was just doing with her in Uncanny.

Sage in Exiles makes absolutely no sense though... here's a character who has tons of story and a multitude strong character connections left behind in 616 (Wisdom, Xaiver, Emma, Ororo, Shaw, Roberto, Bogan, etc) and she drops all her plans to play Cross-Time Caper Round 3? Srsly?! Total waste and a gigantic missed opportunity there, she was practically readymade for Cornell's new direction. :(

Beast

09-29-2007, 10:37 AM

Sage in Exiles makes absolutely no sense though... here's a character who has tons of story and a multitude strong character connections left behind in 616 (Wisdom, Xaiver, Emma, Ororo, Shaw, Roberto, Bogan, etc) and she drops all her plans to play Cross-Time Caper Round 3? Srsly?! Total waste and a gigantic missed opportunity there, she was practically readymade for Cornell's new direction. :(
She makes perfect sense in Exiles. She fills the role vacated by Heather, as the one briefing the team on missions. Plus, the book isn't even out yet... so we don't know the status of the Crystal Palace even after DBTS. There's no place for her after Messiah Complex. And no place for her in Cornell's book, same with Betsy.

jarrod

09-29-2007, 10:40 AM

She makes perfect sense in Exiles. She fills the role vacated by Heather, as the one briefing the team on missions. There's no place for her after Messiah Complex. And no place for her in Cornell's book, same with Betsy.
Oh come on... there's far more "place" for both characters in their home world versus dimension hopping elsewhere. If writer roles were reversed (Cornell on Exiles, Claremont sticking with Excalibur) I'd be singing the same tune, would you?

Novaya Havoc

09-29-2007, 10:45 AM

She makes perfect sense in Exiles. She fills the role vacated by Heather, as the one briefing the team on missions. Plus, the book isn't even out yet... so we don't know the status of the Crystal Palace even after DBTS. There's no place for her after Messiah Complex. And no place for her in Cornell's book, same with Betsy.

Sage does not make "perfect sense" in Exiles. Heather basically was forced into the Timebroker role, and while an okay fit, wasn't a good permafix. The "role" is busted -- so why must 616 Sage run in and take it over?

It's only a perfect fit inasmuch as a perfect opportunity for Claremont -- that is, there is a pre-existing role in which the Sage character could be stretched to fit. Nevermind that she's Sage and has pretty much been stretched to fit several inappropriate roles as-is.

Plus, you just concede that the whole Crystal Palace idea may not even around -- what happens to that "perfect sense" then?

Dizzy D

09-29-2007, 10:55 AM

Plus she's been a member of the Captain Britain Corps.

No, she hasn't. She got her costume from RCX. It's the same as me giving some random guy on the streets the uniform of ...say.. a british colonel. Doesn't make them part of the British Armed Forces.

Daithi

09-29-2007, 10:55 AM

Plus, you just concede that the whole Crystal Palace idea may not even around -- what happens to that "perfect sense" then?

Clearly Roma dies and "someone" from the eXiles takes her job. The eXiles are merged with the Captain Britain Corp.

Flâneur

09-29-2007, 10:56 AM

She makes perfect sense in Exiles. She fills the role vacated by Heather, as the one briefing the team on missions. Plus, the book isn't even out yet... so we don't know the status of the Crystal Palace even after DBTS. There's no place for her after Messiah Complex. And no place for her in Cornell's book, same with Betsy.
Cornell's NEX isn't even out yet... don't leap to conclusions about what places there are and are not available for Sage and Betsy. Nothing has been mentioned about Cornell's plans either so there is little to base that assumption on.

And if you don't know if the Crystal palace will be the same then how do you know Sage is still even remotely well suited to the role? New Exiles isn't even out yet... so we don't know who or what will suit the book.

Beast

09-29-2007, 11:11 AM

Cornell's NEX isn't even out yet... don't leap to conclusions about what places there are and are not available for Sage and Betsy. Nothing has been mentioned about Cornell's plans either so there is little to base that assumption on.

And if you don't know if the Crystal palace will be the same then how do you know Sage is still even remotely well suited to the role? New Exiles isn't even out yet... so we don't know who or what will suit the book.
I'm not leaping to conclusions.

Phil Hunn

09-29-2007, 11:15 AM

There's no place for her after Messiah Complex. And no place for her in Cornell's book, same with Betsy.

If Cornell had had decent ideas for the characters before they showed up in his book, then that would show that there was a place for them, one that was moulded to fit them rather than shaped so that they had to break a few bones in order to fit it.

Dagger

09-29-2007, 11:48 AM

Oh come on... there's far more "place" for both characters in their home world versus dimension hopping elsewhere. If writer roles were reversed (Cornell on Exiles, Claremont sticking with Excalibur) I'd be singing the same tune, would you?
ZOMG JARROD!!!!! I bought the Wisdom mini, and while I still hate the character(sorry, it'll never change) I love the writer! Cornell is a genius! I can't wait til he get's ahold of Excalibur.

It's a shame with what's going to happen with Psylocke, too. She used to be one of my favorite characters, and I had high hopes for her once CC got ahold of her again, but he's made too many bad decisions with just focusing on giving her new, sparkly new powers, instead of delving into her character again. Oh well, I don't buy Exiles anyway, so it's not like I'm going to be missing Sage anytime soon. Maybe with Sage off in NEXiles, we'll get the return of Tangerine!

Faded

09-29-2007, 11:58 AM

Phil Hunn

09-29-2007, 04:13 PM

How do you know Cornell wasn't interested in using either of the two or that they wouldn't fit in his book?

Granted, I'm not a big fan of those two, but I think someone else giving a spin on them and their quirks could be fun.

Indeed. It might be good, it might be bad, but at least it'd be different. Cornell might tank, but I'd rather give him a fair crack of the whip with Betsy & Tessa just to see what he could do. Because let's face it, you could hardly do worse than "Sage gets mind-controlled".

Jesse Newcomb

09-29-2007, 05:09 PM

Indeed. It might be good, it might be bad, but at least it'd be different. Cornell might tank, but I'd rather give him a fair crack of the whip with Betsy & Tessa just to see what he could do. Because let's face it, you could hardly do worse than "Sage gets mind-controlled".

Go read Wisdom, you won't regret it. There is no way he can tank.

Phil Hunn

09-29-2007, 05:58 PM

Go read Wisdom, you won't regret it. There is no way he can tank.

I read the first issue (reviewed it for Comixfan, too, so I did). I didn't particularly like it, but I've enjoyed the other stuff I've seen that Cornell has written (his episodes of Dr Who are really nifty).

Blade X

09-29-2007, 06:03 PM

Likewise she's been a STRIKE agent, worked for RCX, has legacy membership to the Hellfire Club and been an X-Man... she'd be perfectly at home in Excalibur as well. I'd just like to see the twins on the same team for once... an Excalibur lineup more reminsicent of the Ellis Days of Future Tense storyline (both in membership and sensibility) would be ideal for Cornell.

And while I can understand how Betsy could work in a cross-time context (Moore did lay out the implication that the twins were engineered by their father to one day take Merlyn's place and house his power, watching over the multiverse), I think her handling in Exiles has been rather cold, especially compared to the pretty good stuff Claremont was just doing with her in Uncanny.

Your post just gave me an idea on how to solve the whole Psylocke debate about which book she should belong in. Based on Psylocke's origin,all of the stuff that has been done to the character over the past 25+ years,and CC's aborted plan to restore her to her original body, I think the best thing for Psylocke is to split her into 2 different people (again).

1. One version of the character would be the real Psylocke returned to her original body with her original powers. This version of Psylocke would be based on Earth and a member of EXCALIBUR.

2. The other version of Psylocke would be the Eurasian ninja Psylocke. This Psylocke would be a genetically engineered amalgamated clone of Betsy and Kwanon (sp). She would be a member of NEW EXILES.

Of course this will never happen.

Dagger

09-29-2007, 11:37 PM

Your post just gave me an idea on how to solve the whole Psylocke debate about which book she should belong in. Based on Psylocke's origin,all of the stuff that has been done to the character over the past 25+ years,and CC's aborted plan to restore her to her original body, I think the best thing for Psylocke is to split her into 2 different people (again).

1. One version of the character would be the real Psylocke returned to her original body with her original powers. This version of Psylocke would be based on Earth and a member of EXCALIBUR.

2. The other version of Psylocke would be the Eurasian ninja Psylocke. This Psylocke would be a genetically engineered amalgamated clone of Betsy and Kwanon (sp). She would be a member of NEW EXILES.

Of course this will never happen.
No:( I want Revanche back in the reg 616. She was an awesome character. Eff you, haters!

Flâneur

09-29-2007, 11:51 PM

She makes perfect sense in Exiles.
There's no place for her after Messiah Complex.
And no place for her in Cornell's book, same with Betsy.

I'm not leaping to conclusions.
Oh, right.

tetragene

09-30-2007, 08:43 AM

Omega Alpha

09-30-2007, 09:10 AM

scouse mouse

09-30-2007, 10:40 AM

Beast

09-30-2007, 10:45 AM

Male Mystique shows up in Exiles 99!
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11993
This could actually be a good idea. Didn't Claremont say that he was going to have him join the team as well?
Yeah, in his interview a long time back. Mystic was one of the new cast members. Can't wait.

tetragene

09-30-2007, 11:02 AM

Beast

09-30-2007, 11:06 AM

Wait, there's another FF-related/heavy story after last arc?
No. Just the last chapter of the current storyarc.

Affinity

09-30-2007, 12:10 PM

Wait, there's another FF-related/heavy story after last arc?

I'm hoping male Mystique, excuse me--Mystic, is a lot different from 616 Mystique besides "living out most of her life as a man." If it's another psycho, manipulative, kill crazy, etc Mystique then...

Lol, seriously. But I don't have high hopes.

Clayton Henry has seem to found his style: it's a neat blend between his early Exiles dynamic but cartoon-ish and the cleaned up but incredibly bland Vulcan and X-Men #191 issues. It's a great look!

KidNewWave

09-30-2007, 12:27 PM

Is Henry going to be the artist after the Re-Launch?

Faded

09-30-2007, 12:29 PM

Is Henry going to be the artist after the Re-Launch?

I believe its going to be Tom Grummett.

I hope if Clay isn't doing anything else he'll be the New X-Men (or whatever is left of it) artist since Skottie is leaving.

jester1436

09-30-2007, 12:32 PM

A Revanche from a reality where Psylocke died from Legacy instead should be in Exiles. :)

Joe Franklin

09-30-2007, 12:45 PM

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11993

I love the way Claremont writes AOA Sabretooth.:cool:

I hope Creed is in New Exiles #1.

Faded

09-30-2007, 01:09 PM

A Revanche from a reality where Psylocke died from Legacy instead should be in Exiles. :)

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

Phil Hunn

09-30-2007, 03:32 PM

A Revanche from a reality where Psylocke died from Legacy instead should be in Exiles. :)

See, that would work better than dragging 616-Betsy into the book. Everybody would win! :)

Beast

09-30-2007, 03:34 PM

See, that would work better than dragging 616-Betsy into the book. Everybody would win! :)
Except for everyone who hates Revanche.

tetragene

09-30-2007, 03:38 PM

Except for everyone who hates Revanche.

I'm sure Claremont would write Revanche as 616 Psylocke anyway--so does it really matter? It'd free the REAL Psylocke up for anyone that wanted to use her in a title that amounted to a hill of beans. That's the point. Claremont hasn't bothered reading up on any character he's written, so if you're worried Revanche would be like 90's-era Revanche...well...you'd have nothing to worry about, lol.

Blade X

09-30-2007, 05:14 PM

I think it'd be ridiculous to split Psylocke back into two entities. The simplest solution would be for CC to pick up an AU Psylocke. Then he could have her in the British body and "remake" her continuity to whatever he wanted. Leaving 616 Psylocke to whoever would like to use her in the core books or elsewhere--books that actually have some sort of significance and impact on the XU or MU.

There are 2 possible problems with that.

1. There's no guarantee that their is anyone other then CC or Carey (and if the RUMORS are true about Carey not being on X-MEN for long, then that just leaves CC), who wants to write her.

2. The person who ends up writing her, MIGHT do a worst job then CC is doing with her (btw, I like how CC writes her).

DDM

09-30-2007, 05:19 PM

I'm sure Claremont would write Revanche as 616 Psylocke anyway--so does it really matter? It'd free the REAL Psylocke up for anyone that wanted to use her in a title that amounted to a hill of beans. That's the point. Claremont hasn't bothered reading up on any character he's written, so if you're worried Revanche would be like 90's-era Revanche...well...you'd have nothing to worry about, lol.

Chris Claremont is going to write Betsy Braddock--not Revanche! Why? Revanche is a deus ex machina--a horribly written one at that-- who is poorly conceived by another creator to explain Psylocke's transformation into a ninja when the explanation is as plain as day in Uncanny X-Men #256.

The less said about Revanche the better unless you like a can of worms everywhere.

Nachturne

09-30-2007, 05:21 PM

Heh, honestly, I have no idea what explanation of Psylocke being insta-ninja'd would make sense at all. It's laaaaame.

And dues ex machina? Sage??

Joe Franklin

09-30-2007, 06:00 PM

Heh, honestly, I have no idea what explanation of Psylocke being insta-ninja'd would make sense at all. It's laaaaame.

I thought Claremont and Jim Lee had Betsy Ninjafied by Mojo's bodyshop goons?:confused:

ImpulseUCF

09-30-2007, 06:08 PM

Clearly Roma dies and "someone" from the eXiles takes her job. Yaaaay!!! :D
The eXiles are merged with the Captain Britain Corp.Awwww :( That would be horrible. I'd drop the book so fast it'd make your head spin. Ugh.
Male Mystique shows up in Exiles 99!
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11993
This could actually be a good idea. Didn't Claremont say that he was going to have him join the team as well?Ugh! :eek:

Obligatory cringe-inducing outdated snippet of dialog:
"Not!" I wasn't aware it was 1993 again. :rolleyes:
Obligatory "my turn" scene:
"Then it'll be my turn!"
Obligatory needless exposition:
- Guards are walking. "Those guards are walking!"
- Sabretooth is clearly in the jungle. "I'm walking through the jungle."
- Sabretooth is clearly using the jungle for cover. " I am hiding in the jungle for my advantage."
- Guards walk into the jungle and point their guns at Sabretooth. "Now they are walking in the jungle. Now it's their advantage!!
- Sabretooth is stabbed. "I was stabbed!"
- It is generally understood that getting stab is painful at best. "That hurts!"
- "I have a healing factor that will heal me." Really?!

tetragene

09-30-2007, 06:18 PM

Chris Claremont is going to write Betsy Braddock--not Revanche! Why? Revanche is a deus ex machina--a horribly written one at that-- who is poorly conceived by another creator to explain Psylocke's transformation into a ninja when the explanation is as plain as day in Uncanny X-Men #256.

The less said about Revanche the better unless you like a can of worms everywhere.

And Sage is what exactly? The antithesis of a horribly written deus-ex-machina?

And sorry--but while the explaination was there in UXM 256 (thanks for reminding me by the way, I had NO idea what issue it took place in), it was still lame as hell. They "turned" her Asian...? LOL... Oh, ok!

DDM

09-30-2007, 06:54 PM

And Sage is what exactly? The antithesis of a horribly written deus-ex-machina?

And sorry--but while the explaination was there in UXM 256 (thanks for reminding me by the way, I had NO idea what issue it took place in), it was still lame as hell. They "turned" her Asian...? LOL... Oh, ok!

What does Sage have to do with Revanche? Sage has been around since Uncanny X-Men #132 as Tessa with a detailed history, yet Revanche comes out of nowhere with a confusing, jumbled origin to explain Betsy's Asian transformation when it was not needed.

Misdirection gets you nowhere.

tetragene

09-30-2007, 07:02 PM

What does Sage have to do with Revanche? Sage has been around since Uncanny X-Men #132 as Tessa with a detailed history, yet Revanche comes out of nowhere with a confusing, jumbled origin to explain Betsy's Asian transformation when it was not needed.

Misdirection gets you nowhere.

You're railing on Revanche for being a poorly written dues-ex-machina...but will act like Sage is a masterpiece work. Sage is the biggest deus-ex-machina in comic existance. It doesn't matter how long she's been around. She's a plot device that pulls powers out of her ass to solve problems. She can do no wrong and we're constantly slapped in the face with what a perfect, stoic beauty she is. Sage's origin is confusing and jumbled...being the "first" X-Men does not add up with her appearances as Tessa at all. She's a DEUS EX MACHINA!!!

Rose colored glasses will get you nowhere.

d newton

09-30-2007, 09:08 PM

You're railing on Revanche for being a poorly written dues-ex-machina...
Please explain to me why Marvel needed to muck up Psylocke's origin completely by bringing someone out of nowhere?

tetragene

09-30-2007, 09:18 PM

Please explain to me why Marvel needed to muck up Psylocke's origin completely by bringing someone out of nowhere?

Uh...no one is saying they had to. They just did.

I still stand that it was a better explaination (though the execution had several problems) than...Mojo and Spiral turn a caucasian non-fighter into an asian ninja!

jester1436

09-30-2007, 09:24 PM

Please explain to me why Marvel needed to muck up Psylocke's origin completely by bringing someone out of nowhere?

Personally, I find a mystical transformation into a Japanese ninja to be kind of offensive. Oooh, Spiral can magically change peoples race! Psylocke can't be a warrior as a British woman, she has to be Japanese!

Even if it was questionably handled, having Revanche show up is better than race changing magic. Hell, it's racial stereotype changing magic, from "useless white chick" to "fierce dragon lady."

And I <3 Revanche.

d newton

09-30-2007, 11:08 PM

I still stand that it was a better explaination (though the execution had several problems) than...Mojo and Spiral turn a caucasian non-fighter into an asian ninja!
You thought introducing Revanche was a better move than having Mojo & Spiral mucking with Betsy's body? Why? :confused:

Dagger

09-30-2007, 11:11 PM

I loved the Revanche reveal, only because I wasn't too thrilled with the sexification of Psylocke. She was an awesome character before we had to get butt floss Psylocke, with the cunny in the face kiyai!!! I don't see what's difficult to understand. It made more sense than her magically becoming asian, and ninja'd!

Dagger

09-30-2007, 11:14 PM

You thought introducing Revanche was a better move than having Mojo & Spiral mucking with Betsy's body? Why? :confused:
Why do you like the Mojo and Spiral thing (which wasn't shown on panel, and came off as a dream sequence)?

Short answer: Because we do. It made more sense to those of us, who didn't like the explanation, or lack thereof, that Claremont gave us with the original story.

Flâneur

09-30-2007, 11:25 PM

The Kwannon body swap thing would have been so much better if they'd done it the way Millar did in the Ultimate U.

d newton

09-30-2007, 11:26 PM

Why do you like the Mojo and Spiral thing (which wasn't shown on panel, and came off as a dream sequence)?

Short answer: Because we do. It made more sense to those of us, who didn't like the explanation, or lack thereof, that Claremont gave us with the original story.
It made more sense? No, it ruined established characters by bringing in ideas out of thin air!

Dagger

09-30-2007, 11:35 PM

It made more sense? No, it ruined established characters by bringing in ideas out of thin air!
Yeah, like slapping a thong on, and magically changing her asian didn't ruin her in the long run!;)

And you're avoiding my question when I answered yours.

d newton

10-01-2007, 12:23 AM

Yeah, like slapping a thong on, and magically changing her asian didn't ruin her in the long run!
And your proof of this is what...?

And you're avoiding my question when I answered yours.
It was silly, that's why:

Short answer: Because we do. It made more sense to those of us, who didn't like the explanation, or lack thereof, that happened with the original story.

tetragene

10-01-2007, 04:32 AM

You may not like it, but yes--it is a much better explaination. A character magically changing race and gaining extensive ninja skills vs a body swap, which places them in the body of an Asian person with extensive ninja skills. Regardless of handling, I don't think its a stretch to say that the latter is a much better idea. Plus CC's version involved Mojo--one of the hokiest/goofiest characters in existance (particularly under him).

jarrod

10-01-2007, 06:59 AM

"Better idea" is hugely subjective... I quite liked the idea that the Hand used a combination of surgery, mental conditioning and mystics to transform Betsy into one of their own. I also liked that Mojo and Spiral's influence was left open ended... one could read in that they were deeply involved in the process or simply appeared as part of Betsy's conditioning scenarios. Either way there was a nuanced weight to the story, and some interesting psychology at work.

Revanche by comparison was a clumsy, cheap, overtly simplistic and "comic-booky" reveal imo. Worse still, Nicezia's vulgar manhandling brought in Spiral full tilt, leaving the complexities of the original story shattered. The whole body swap felt ill-concieved and didn't mesh at all with established canon... which makes sense as it's creator later on admitted not having even read the full story of Betsy's transformation. If he had, we certainly would've never seen Revanche... the original origin was most certainly "better" imo.

d newton

10-01-2007, 07:19 AM

A character magically changing race and gaining extensive ninja skills vs a body swap, which places them in the body of an Asian person with extensive ninja skills. Regardless of handling, I don't think its a stretch to say that the latter is a much better idea. Plus CC's version involved Mojo--one of the hokiest/goofiest characters in existance (particularly under him).
Where did the magic aspect come from - I thought it was mainly science based? And there are more hokey characters than Mojo in the X universe.

jarrod

10-01-2007, 07:23 AM

Where did the magic aspect come from - I thought it was mainly science based? And there are more hokey characters than Mojo in the X universe.
It was a mix of science and magic... it's how the Hand conditions it's assassins, though for Betsy they went through some extra trouble.

And again, it was actually Nicezia who directly linked Mojoverse characters into the origin. Claremont had left it open to interpretation...

Jesse Newcomb

10-01-2007, 08:10 AM

It was silly, that's why:

That's really not good enough. You should give an answer even if you don't like what you have to say.

Also, it makes your argument really thin.

Omega Alpha

10-01-2007, 08:43 AM

The Kwannon body swap thing would have been so much better if they'd done it the way Millar did in the Ultimate U.

Yeah, Millar's version was much simple and better.

DDM

10-01-2007, 09:28 AM

Personally, I find a mystical transformation into a Japanese ninja to be kind of offensive. Oooh, Spiral can magically change peoples race! Psylocke can't be a warrior as a British woman, she has to be Japanese!

Spiral transformed Lady Deathstrike into a cyborg with Adamantium technology in Uncanny X-Men #205. Why is Psylocke any different? In both cases, Lady Deathstrike & Psylocke are getting their heart's desires at very high prices.

Psylocke betrays everything she stands for--her heroic self--to become a villain, Lady Mandarin & the Hand's premiere assassin. As a result of Spiral's magick, thanks to Betsy's connection to Mojoworld due her bionic eyes, Psylocke becomes the ultimate woman warrior. Yes, she becomes Asian too because the Hand is Asian in origin. Mojo says it himself when he tells Betsy that you can't have a Westerner running the Hong Kong Underworld. Flesh is clay to him. And Betsy is his favorite toy.

The only thing I see "offensive" about Betsy's transformation is political correctness run amok.

Even if it was questionably handled, having Revanche show up is better than race changing magic. Hell, it's racial stereotype changing magic, from "useless white chick" to "fierce dragon lady."

And I <3 Revanche.

Except the more Revanche is brought in to explain Betsy's origin, the more confusing it is for the readers, writer, & editors. Revanche was brought in & quickly perished because she is an empty plot device. Revanche added nothing to Betsy's origin. Revanche did more damage than good.

Flâneur

10-01-2007, 09:56 AM

Spiral transformed Lady Deathstrike into a cyborg with Adamantium technology in Uncanny X-Men #205. Why is Psylocke any different? In both cases, Lady Deathstrike & Psylocke are getting their heart's desires at very high prices.

<useless blather>

The only thing I see "offensive" about Betsy's transformation is political correctness run amok.

The alteration of Betsy's ethnicity had nothing to do with granting her desires and everything to do with playing to stereotyping of asians so as to make Betsy all hardcore. She didn't need to be asian to fight well, she didn't need to be asian to be part of the Hand (Elektra anyone?) so having the Hand alter nothing but her ethnicity is pathetic. And before you raise the point of the Hand altering her through brain washing - that again had nothing to do with her ethnicity.

It makes no sense for the Hand to engage Spiral merely to alter her ethnicity; it's a waste of resources and gains them nothing. On a deeper level it simply played with asian stereotyping - she needs to be asian to be an hardcore fighter because by virtue of being asian she is ninja! Hyah!

Except the more Revanche is brought in to explain Betsy's origin, the more confusing it is for the readers, writer, & editors. Revanche was brought in & quickly perished because she is an empty plot device. Revanche added nothing to Betsy's origin. Revanche did more damage than good.
The body swap shebang explains the why of the asian-isation of Betsy much more coherently however the execution really left something to be desired; Nicieza could have and has done better writing. Regardless, a body swap is still more logical for the plot than someone randomly using magic to change the colour of one's skin.

jarrod

10-01-2007, 01:56 PM

The body swap shebang explains the why of the asian-isation of Betsy much more coherently however the execution really left something to be desired; Nicieza could have and has done better writing. Regardless, a body swap is still more logical for the plot than someone randomly using magic to change the colour of one's skin.
I'll refute this, as magic within the Marvel Universe is far from random or illogical, especially when dealing with an ancient society like the Hand, whose origins, rituals and practices are steeped in mysticysm. What's more illogical and random is that the Hand would need to hire a six armed alien to do this sort of work for them.

The other problem is that according to Nicezia's story, it actually wasn't just a simple body swap... Besty's features were molded in Kwannon's body and vice versa. Also, their minds were somewhat mixed in the process, with Betsy suppossedly picking up some of Kwannon's darker tendancies and Kwannon getting a bit of Betsy's more virtuous qualities.

Basically, racial features were *still* altered by random/illigical magic in Nicezia's retcon, and arguably by a more random/illogical source of magic at that. The whole thing is a conflicted, ill-thought out mess that runs directly counter to the story it mangled and fundamentally damages the core character more involved than anything... I'm glad it's finally behind us.

DDM

10-01-2007, 03:12 PM

I'll refute this, as magic within the Marvel Universe is far from random or illogical, especially when dealing with an ancient society like the Hand, whose origins, rituals and practices are steeped in mysticysm. What's more illogical and random is that the Hand would need to hire a six armed alien to do this sort of work for them.

The other problem is that according to Nicezia's story, it actually wasn't just a simple body swap... Besty's features were molded in Kwannon's body and vice versa. Also, their minds were somewhat mixed in the process, with Betsy suppossedly picking up some of Kwannon's darker tendancies and Kwannon getting a bit of Betsy's more virtuous qualities.

Basically, racial features were *still* altered by random/illigical magic in Nicezia's retcon, and arguably by a more random/illogical source of magic at that. The whole thing is a conflicted, ill-thought out mess that runs directly counter to the story it mangled and fundamentally damages the core character more involved than anything... I'm glad it's finally behind us.

Furthermore, the demonic Hand has plenty of mystical powers all by themselves thanks to the unnamed demon the Hand is a tribute to. The Hand also are experts in brainwashing & resurrection (i.e. Elektra); therefore, Betsy's corruption into Lady Mandarin is an extreme of Elektra's attempted brainwashing. The only difference is the Hand succeeded with Psylocke. And the Hand did their job too well since Betsy became Asian in the process.

Spiral & Mojo were meant to be the real puppet masters manipulating the Hand just to get the outcome Spiral & Mojo wanted for Betsy; however, the Hand was not meant to go to Spiral for Psylocke's transformation. It's just does make sense given the Hand's history with Daredevil & Elektra.

tetragene

10-01-2007, 03:34 PM

I don't think anyone is arguing the merits of "magic" in the MU--we're all very aware that it's used and quite established. Some of us just think that altering one's race through magic is quite stupid (as well as her "having" to be Asian in order to be a badass) as opposed to a body swap explaining being a different race and having extensive knowledge on a previously clueless skill/subject. Obviously, some of you disagree. I don't think we're going to be changing each others opinions anytime soon...lol

Dagger

10-01-2007, 04:04 PM

And your proof of this is what...?
Her handling since her being changed asian by CC, Lobdell, Fab. Nic, and so on. Proof enough that it wasn't a good change in the long run.

It was silly, that's why:
No, it wasn't. I was just reversing the question you asked to those who liked the Kwannon explanation. You didn't give an answer, you just dodged the question yet again.

Dagger

10-01-2007, 04:11 PM

I'll refute this, as magic within the Marvel Universe is far from random or illogical, especially when dealing with an ancient society like the Hand, whose origins, rituals and practices are steeped in mysticysm. What's more illogical and random is that the Hand would need to hire a six armed alien to do this sort of work for them.

The other problem is that according to Nicezia's story, it actually wasn't just a simple body swap... Besty's features were molded in Kwannon's body and vice versa. Also, their minds were somewhat mixed in the process, with Betsy suppossedly picking up some of Kwannon's darker tendancies and Kwannon getting a bit of Betsy's more virtuous qualities.

Basically, racial features were *still* altered by random/illigical magic in Nicezia's retcon, and arguably by a more random/illogical source of magic at that. The whole thing is a conflicted, ill-thought out mess that runs directly counter to the story it mangled and fundamentally damages the core character more involved than anything... I'm glad it's finally behind us.
Magic isn't a random thing in the MU, but magically changing someone's race w/o a direct answer why is. While the total execution on Fabian's handling of the Kwannon saga was a bit superficial, and could have had some more depth, if Kwannon had been around a bit longer than a year, I believe it would have been explored a lot more, and handled much better as well.

I still feel it was a much better than the vague execution of the original storyline imo.

Phil Hunn

10-01-2007, 04:41 PM

What does Sage have to do with Revanche? Sage has been around since Uncanny X-Men #132 as Tessa with a detailed history

A contradictory, cobbled-together history that goes against established continuity (Xavier meets Tessa for the first time, and explicitly states he doesn't trust her. Now we're supposed to believe that he actually tutored her in secret, away from the other X-Men... after she saved him from the big block of stone that crushed his legs?).

Personally, I find a mystical transformation into a Japanese ninja to be kind of offensive. Oooh, Spiral can magically change peoples race! Psylocke can't be a warrior as a British woman, she has to be Japanese!

You forgot the fact that she became "honour-bound" to certain things, like a chance to surrender. Y'know, because computers, honour & ninjas are the only things Japan is famous for :p

And your proof of this is what...?

You want proof? Okay, how about this:

She's been prancing around in the same bloody costume for the vast majority of the last ten years (when most if not all of the other X-Men have had vast numbers of wardrobe changes), standing around and flashing her arse and/or boobies at the reader to provide blatant fan-service for the more hairy-palmed fans out there. When she HAS received explicit focus, it's largely been more to do with giving her spangly new powers (like the Crimson Dawn shadow-teleportation and shadow psi-form powers) than to focus on her as a person, almost as if she's little more than a human drawing board for writers' more out-there ideas.

This has done her no good whatsoever, and has turned her from an interesting, nuanced character into a vapid, transparent porn star wearing an X-logo.

Phil Hunn

10-01-2007, 04:47 PM

Double-post.

Blade X

10-01-2007, 06:31 PM

They "turned" her Asian...? LOL... Oh, ok!

Actually, they turned her EURASIAN. She was supposed to be a mix of Chinese (NOT Japanese, which was a retcon) and British. She was also NEVER meant to be a ninja (another retcon), but a kung fu expert.

Blade X

10-01-2007, 06:39 PM

Personally, I find a mystical transformation into a Japanese ninja to be kind of offensive. Oooh, Spiral can magically change peoples race! Psylocke can't be a warrior as a British woman, she has to be Japanese!

Even if it was questionably handled, having Revanche show up is better than race changing magic. Hell, it's racial stereotype changing magic, from "useless white chick" to "fierce dragon lady."

And I <3 Revanche.

According to CC, the reason that Mandarin and that particular sect of the Hand wanted to turn Psylocke Eurasian, is because they themselves were racist and didn't want a white assassin working for them.

Blade X

10-01-2007, 07:03 PM

jester1436

10-01-2007, 07:30 PM

According to CC, the reason that Mandarin and that particular sect of the Hand wanted to turn Psylocke Eurasian, is because they themselves were racist and didn't want a white assassin working for them.

Well that explains the very white Elektra's involvement with the Hand before and after Psylocke's transformation. That explanation is totally paper thin.

d newton

10-01-2007, 10:25 PM

She's been prancing around in the same costume for the vast majority of the last ten years (when most if not all of the other X-Men have had vast numbers of wardrobe changes), standing around and flashing her boobies at the reader to provide blatant fan-service for the more hairy-palmed fans out there. When she HAS received explicit focus, it's largely been more to do with giving her spangly new powers (like the Crimson Dawn shadow-teleportation and shadow psi-form powers) than to focus on her as a person, almost as if she's little more than a human drawing board for writers' more out-there ideas.
Can you please try not to throw swear words in your comments?

A contradictory, cobbled-together history that goes against established continuity (Xavier meets Tessa for the first time, and explicitly states he doesn't trust her. Now we're supposed to believe that he actually tutored her in secret, away from the other X-Men... after she saved him from the big block of stone that crushed his legs?).
So you decided to repeat this paragraph further down the page?

CmX

10-01-2007, 10:42 PM

Can you please try not to throw swear words in your comments?

So you decided to repeat this paragraph further down the page?

Lame come backs. They don't make any sense. He's replying to what you asked for and if he had to repeat something it's probably because you failed to grasp it the first time.

Nachturne

10-01-2007, 11:05 PM

There are swear words in there :confused:

Blade X

10-01-2007, 11:07 PM

Well that explains the very white Elektra's involvement with the Hand before and after Psylocke's transformation. That explanation is totally paper thin.

I guess you missed the part of my post where I said "THE MANDARIN AND THAT PARTICULAR SECT OF THE HAND". I should also point out that it makes perfect sense that they would want an agent calling herself LADY MANDARIN to look at least partially Asian.

Nachturne

10-01-2007, 11:18 PM

Dagger

10-01-2007, 11:56 PM

I guess you missed the part of my post where I said "THE MANDARIN AND THAT PARTICULAR SECT OF THE HAND". I should also point out that it makes perfect sense that they would want an agent calling herself LADY MANDARIN to look at least partially Asian.
Yeah, because a telepath who has the ability to make people think she looks however she wants them to think she looks would need an entire ethnicticity change. It's still a paper thin argument.

Dizzy D

10-02-2007, 03:47 AM

Actually, they turned her EURASIAN. She was supposed to be a mix of Chinese (NOT Japanese, which was a retcon) and British. She was also NEVER meant to be a ninja (another retcon), but a kung fu expert.

The more I read it, the more I wonder why the Hand is even in the story. They add nothing the Mandarin couldn't do. If Mandarin wanted her to be Chinese and versed in Kung-Fu outsourcing her training and transformation to the very Japanese ninja-clan is odd.

As for not wanting an European working for him. He has never had that problem before, hell the very European Swordsman was his main agent back in the days.

Flâneur

10-02-2007, 04:28 AM

I'll refute this, as magic within the Marvel Universe is far from random or illogical, especially when dealing with an ancient society like the Hand, whose origins, rituals and practices are steeped in mysticysm. What's more illogical and random is that the Hand would need to hire a six armed alien to do this sort of work for them.
I'm not commenting on the logic of magic; I'm arguing that the reasoning behind employing Spiral for the sole purpose of making someone look asian. Why bother making her asian-esque? Why bother employing the services of an insane six armed alien to do it? Especially when, as our darling DDM pointed out, her price is always steep.
The other problem is that according to Nicezia's story, it actually wasn't just a simple body swap... Besty's features were molded in Kwannon's body and vice versa. Also, their minds were somewhat mixed in the process, with Betsy suppossedly picking up some of Kwannon's darker tendancies and Kwannon getting a bit of Betsy's more virtuous qualities.
It wasn't just a simple body swap; it was a very convoluted and poorly executed one and it did kind of mess up the story but I think a body swap is better than randomly employing an expensive, insane, six armed alien to make someone look asian just because. Claremont's execution was better but still ... race changing magic to make someone more ninja-ish? =/

jarrod

10-02-2007, 06:46 AM

Magic isn't a random thing in the MU, but magically changing someone's race w/o a direct answer why is. superficial, and could have had some more depth, if Kwannon had been around a bit longer than a year, I believe it would have been explored a lot more, and handled much better as well.
They wanted Betsy to take control of the Hong Kong underworld iirc... perhaps they thought an asian appearance would aid her in making that happen? The Mandarin was involved too, and there was something of a sexual slavery subtext to the story (hey, it's Claremont)... maybe he wanted her asian for his own desires?

Whatever the case, there's several possible reasonings here, not that the Hand tend to always lay out their priorities for us anyway. At the least, I'd say no on panel explanation is preferable to a corny 1950s sci-fi body swap, performed by a random six armed alien, the purpose behind which being a superficial love story... to which the body swap doesn't even really resolve or make sense with. If you want basic logic holes, one could drive a truck through those in Nicezia's story.

I still feel it was a much better than the vague execution of the original storyline imo.
I'd have to strongly disagree. It was like Endsong following Here Comes Tomorrow, a total misread and mangling of concepts for the extreme worse.

Part of the strength of Claremont's story was it's openess to multiple reads and interpretations. Nicezia bludgeoned any trace of that with a corny D-grade retcon, one of the worse offenses of the generally offensive Harras era imo.

I'm not commenting on the logic of magic; I'm arguing that the reasoning behind employing Spiral for the sole purpose of making someone look asian. Why bother making her asian-esque? Why bother employing the services of an insane six armed alien to do it? Especially when, as our darling DDM pointed out, her price is always steep.
Oh... well then, I guess we agree on the absurdity of the Hand even employing Spiral. Which Nicezia maintained, but Claremont didn't. ;)

I liked to think Mojo and Spiral were aware of what was happeneing to Betsy, watching and taunting and observing for the first time since Roma cast her cloaking spell... but it's pretty clear the Hand was doing all the heavy lifting in the original story. It wasn't until Nicezia came in that we had Spiral actually involved in the transformation directly, which makes no sense as this would be something the Hand could obviously accomplish on their own.

It wasn't just a simple body swap; it was a very convoluted and poorly executed one and it did kind of mess up the story but I think a body swap is better than randomly employing an expensive, insane, six armed alien to make someone look asian just because. Claremont's execution was better but still ... race changing magic to make someone more ninja-ish? =/
But they didn't... in Claremont's story, they transformed Betsy into one of their own completely, into their prime assassin, and they did it themselves. In Nicezia's story, they hired a six armed alien to swap out minds even though they probably could've done that themselves, mix them and the body features a bit along the way, because Matsuo, loved one of them... and uh, wanted someone else's mind in her? The Hand, a thousand year old death cult famous for bringing back the dead... needs Spiral because their leader's afraid of losing his girlfriend's... uh, body? Now which one is lacking in logic here?

I dunno, being an old school X-Men fan, I guess I'm used to not having everything spelled out for me and haphazardly slapped across my face. It's part of the magic of Claremont's original run and why Morrison's run was so amazing... I like getting the pieces and forming a picture, but maybe that's just me. At the least though, I'll take a decent vague answer over a totally shit direct explanation any time. ;)

DDM

10-02-2007, 09:53 AM

I agree.

Also, people tend to forget that before Fabian's Kwannon retcon, Psylocke DID NOT look fully Asian. She pretty much looked like her old self, but with SOME Asian physical features.

In the original Chris Claremont story, Betsy's face had changed as a result of the Hand & Mandarin's brainwashing, but Psylocke's body is the same. Hence, Betsy still has Mojo's bionic eyes & a means for him to keep a check on her.

There was always great tension with the ninja Psylocke because Betsy believed she was still the Hand's slave, although she had been freed since she did not revert back to herself at the end of Uncanny X-Men #258. I liked the fact Jubilee never trusted Psylocke & wanted to trust Wolverine, yet Logan was clearly insane given his hallucinations of Carol Danvers & Nick Fury.

DDM

10-02-2007, 09:56 AM

The more I read it, the more I wonder why the Hand is even in the story. They add nothing the Mandarin couldn't do. If Mandarin wanted her to be Chinese and versed in Kung-Fu outsourcing her training and transformation to the very Japanese ninja-clan is odd.

As for not wanting an European working for him. He has never had that problem before, hell the very European Swordsman was his main agent back in the days.

Matsuo is the reason the Hand is part of the story. He was also meant to become a greater threat when Fenris & himself take over the Hellfire Club's Inner Circle. Matsuo represents the Hand.

The Hand also has a history with Wolverine. Therefore, it makes sense for the Hand to be backdrop for Betsy's corruption.

DDM

10-02-2007, 09:59 AM

Why not pick someone who's Asian then :confused:

Matuso gave his reasons in Uncanny X-Men #256: Psylocke represents the best potential for one of the Hand's greatest assassins given her mutant telepathy. She can slay people with her mind. Furthermore, given she wore the Mandarin's rings as Landy Mandarin, Betsy possessed even more power to represent the Mandarin himself & regain his reputation that had been battered by Iron Man.

Phil Hunn

10-02-2007, 12:08 PM

Can you please try not to throw swear words in your comments?

So you decided to repeat this paragraph further down the page?

Pointing out the accidental error of double-posting is hardly a good riposte to a perfectly valid argument.

There are swear words in there :confused:

"Bloody" could be construed as a swear word, I suppose. Claremont's Betsy says it all the time, though (along with the phrase "sodding cow"), and in all-ages books at that, so take that as you will.

Matuso gave his reasons in Uncanny X-Men #256: Psylocke represents the best potential for one of the Hand's greatest assassins given her mutant telepathy. She can slay people with her mind.

So can most telepaths, though - so why they didn't try to get someone like Mentallo or the Shadow King on their side is beyond me (they wouldn't even need reconditioning. Just give them some juicy reason for teaming up with them, and they'd be in like Flynn).

jarrod

10-02-2007, 12:13 PM

So can most telepaths, though - so why they didn't try to get someone like Mentallo or the Shadow King on their side is beyond me (they wouldn't even need reconditioning. Just give them some juicy reason for teaming up with them, and they'd be in like Flynn).
Probably more an issue of Betsy being in the right place at the right time and more or less a defenseless amnesiac. Her association to the X-Men (and by extension Logan) likely didn't hurt either. If say, Rachel or Jean were in that spot, they'd have been equally thrilled I'm sure.

Farouk would make for a terrible partnership though, I think the Hand would prefer an assassin they could keep control over.

Dagger

10-02-2007, 12:13 PM

They also could have used Karma, since she was only over in Madripoor, and they wouldn't have had to change her features to make her asian looking, when they had a asian in their hands. Plus, she had the perfect power to become an assassin in the hand's employ(as her uncle had seen the potential for in her first appearance)

jarrod

10-02-2007, 12:16 PM

Shan's abilities aren't as versatile though... but really this is splitting hairs, if the Hand would've had the same sort of opportunity with her, I'm sure they'd have taken it.

It'd be better than being chained up in the Institute laundry room anyway. :D

Phil Hunn

10-02-2007, 12:21 PM

Probably more an issue of Betsy being in the right place at the right time and more or less a defenseless amnesiac. Her association to the X-Men (and by extension Logan) likely didn't hurt either. If say, Rachel or Jean were in that spot, they'd have been equally thrilled I'm sure.

Farouk would make for a terrible partnership though, I think the Hand would prefer an assassin they could keep control over.

True. He would be the sort of individual you'd have to keep an eye on at all times, just to make sure he wasn't going to stab you in the back. Would he be worth the risk, though? Considering the scope of his powers, I'm willing to say yes... although that might well get me deader than disco, so what do I know? ;)

jarrod

10-02-2007, 12:38 PM

True. He would be the sort of individual you'd have to keep an eye on at all times, just to make sure he wasn't going to stab you in the back. Would he be worth the risk, though? Considering the scope of his powers, I'm willing to say yes... although that might well get me deader than disco, so what do I know? ;)
Farouk and the Hand versus Bogan and the Hellfire Club... with Betsy and Tess in the crossfire!? I think we may just have our first neXiles meta-arc! :eek:

Srsly Phil, you need to stop feeding the old man all these ideas. ;)

Phil Hunn

10-02-2007, 01:12 PM

Farouk and the Hand versus Bogan and the Hellfire Club... with Betsy and Tess in the crossfire!? I think we may just have our first neXiles meta-arc! :eek:

Words cannot describe the horror of the images that sentence has conjured up in my mind.

Well, okay, the mental vision of Betsy & Sage tongue-kissing while chained up and wearing metal bikinis isn't such a bad picture, but the rest of it... :eek:

Srsly Phil, you need to stop feeding the old man all these ideas. ;)

Ah, you know you'd love it really.

DDM

10-02-2007, 01:21 PM

So can most telepaths, though - so why they didn't try to get someone like Mentallo or the Shadow King on their side is beyond me (they wouldn't even need reconditioning. Just give them some juicy reason for teaming up with them, and they'd be in like Flynn).

Matsuo is as much an opportunist as he is a businessman who represents the Hand. The fact Betsy Braddock washed up along the Hand's island--amnesiac--gave him the Hand the opportunity to turn a good telepath evil for the Hand & Mandarin's purposes.

The Hand would not have been successful subverting the Shadow King though, but he would have used his psi-powers to subvert the Hand to his will. Given the Shadow King is dead, he would be very difficult to brainwash since he can move his consciousness into several host bodies all over the world.

jarrod

10-02-2007, 01:46 PM

Well, okay, the mental vision of Betsy & Sage tongue-kissing while chained up and wearing metal bikinis isn't such a bad picture
Sold! :eek:

Ah, you know you'd love it really.
I said sold already!

It like a car crash... deep down, who doesn't like that? :D

Phil Hunn

10-02-2007, 02:25 PM

Sold! :eek:

I thought that image might appeal :D

I said sold already!

It like a car crash... deep down, who doesn't like that? :D

As long as it's not my blood being spilled, I'm always happy to see a bit of carnage and destruction.

:evilsmile

jarrod

10-02-2007, 05:42 PM

ZOMG JARROD!!!!! I bought the Wisdom mini, and while I still hate the character(sorry, it'll never change) I love the writer! Cornell is a genius! I can't wait til he get's ahold of Excalibur.
OMG, it's sooooooo good right?!

Tink for president! Srsly!

It's a shame with what's going to happen with Psylocke, too. She used to be one of my favorite characters, and I had high hopes for her once CC got ahold of her again, but he's made too many bad decisions with just focusing on giving her new, sparkly new powers, instead of delving into her character again. Oh well, I don't buy Exiles anyway, so it's not like I'm going to be missing Sage anytime soon. Maybe with Sage off in NEXiles, we'll get the return of Tangerine!
It's such a missed opportunity, I think Cornell could work wonders with Betsy and Tess. Really a shame. :(

If we get Tangerine tho, it's *almost* worth the trade off! :D

Dagger

10-02-2007, 06:51 PM

OMG, it's sooooooo good right?!

Tink for president! Srsly!
I really, really enjoyed it! Sure, I wish it focused less on Wisdom, and more on Tink(hey, what can I say, I like fairies:p) it wasn't a bad read at all!

It's such a missed opportunity, I think Cornell could work wonders with Betsy and Tess. Really a shame. :(

If we get Tangerine tho, it's *almost* worth the trade off! :D
I'd really like to see her some more. But looking more like how Davis drew her, and less how she was portrayed in Days of Future whatever story that was. I don't know about Tessa, though. Is it possible to portray her as being anything but a dues ex machina? After seeing her for the last 6 years I'm going to have to go with no on that.

jarrod

10-02-2007, 07:02 PM

I really, really enjoyed it! Sure, I wish it focused less on Wisdom, and more on Tink(hey, what can I say, I like fairies:p) it wasn't a bad read at all!
Soooo good. PAD better look out, Cornell's Excalibur could well dethrone X-Factor as the criminally underrated sister team standout. :D

I'd really like to see her some more. But looking more like how Davis drew her, and less how she was portrayed in Days of Future whatever story that was.
I think I'd want something different entirely, especially as Tange should be just 12-13 right now. A more absurd visual to play on that, like being a normal looking girl in a basic schoolgirl outfit... who just happens to be this immesely powerful/dangerous telepath might strike the right cord.

Plus if we ever saw the awesomess of Excalibur and X-Factor collide for a crossover (making millions of baby awesomenesses in the process) we could get a Jamie & Layla versus Wisdom & Tangerine face off! AWESOME!

I don't know about Tessa, though. Is it possible to portray her as being anything but a dues ex machina? After seeing her for the last 6 years I'm going to have to go with no on that.
I look at the magic Carey worked with Regan and PAD worked with Layla... and I have to say, I think *anything* is possible really. :D

CmX

10-02-2007, 09:00 PM

I look at the magic Carey worked with Regan and PAD worked with Layla... and I have to say, I think *anything* is possible really. :D

I totally agree, it's not what the character is it's how it's written and by whom. Carey has really proven the point that there's no such thing as a bad character, just a bad writer.

Dizzy D

10-03-2007, 03:19 AM

I think I'd want something different entirely, especially as Tange should be just 12-13 right now. A more absurd visual to play on that, like being a normal looking girl in a basic schoolgirl outfit... who just happens to be this immesely powerful/dangerous telepath might strike the right cord.

If the first issue of Cornell's Excalibur includes Alistaire Stuart having his men/women kneecapping and dragging off Courtney Ross/Sat-Yr-9 for telepathic interrogation by a 10-year old Tangerine (who is promoted because without Maureen British secret services no longer have a telepath) to finally straighten out that mess, I'll have that sex change so I can have his babies.

Phil Hunn

10-03-2007, 12:39 PM

I really, really enjoyed it! Sure, I wish it focused less on Wisdom, and more on Tink(hey, what can I say, I like fairies:p) it wasn't a bad read at all!

I really only read the first issue, but the sight of a fairy wielding a minigun has its advantages, I'll admit :D

I don't know about Tessa, though. Is it possible to portray her as being anything but a dues ex machina? After seeing her for the last 6 years I'm going to have to go with no on that.

I keep harking back to Tony Lee's eight-page Sage story as the best story Tessa's had since she put on the cyber-glasses and became a drunkard (seriously, the amount of wine that woman puts away would shame Wolverine, for Zod's sake...).

I think I'd want something different entirely, especially as Tange should be just 12-13 right now. A more absurd visual to play on that, like being a normal looking girl in a basic schoolgirl outfit... who just happens to be this immesely powerful/dangerous telepath might strike the right cord.

You just want to see a character wearing a schoolgirl outfit :p

I totally agree, it's not what the character is it's how it's written and by whom. Carey has really proven the point that there's no such thing as a bad character, just a bad writer.

Indeed. Hell, Thunderbird III actually looked halfway viable when Morrison wrote him in that Genosha anniversary story - he still came across as a twit sometimes but he was key to the plot, and displayed a power that was a reasonable extension of his existing abilities (immunity to radiation). I almost didn't hate him after that :p

Dagger

10-03-2007, 11:14 PM

The thing about Sage is, I thought she could have been an actually interesting character that I would have liked to read about when she was Tessa. The moment she became Sage (well, not the exact moment) but when she was standing over Beast and 'jumpstarting' his latent mutant powers I knew she was going to become a really lame character, and alas, I was right.

She would have been fine had they just kept her with the Cyberpathy. There are tons of characters who have computer brains who I find interesting(Smart Alec is one of my favorite characters ever), but when you keep adding more and more powers, and focusing on doing bigger and badder things, and not focusing on her character whatsoever, besides that she likes to drink wine. A LOT.

What do we really know about her over the last 7 years? Not much. She saved the professor and Sebastian Shaw(in a really, really lame retcon), was a pawn of Elais Bogan, and even had scars/tattoos that were never seen until X-Treme X-Men started(LAME) and she is a mystery wrapped in an enigma with a cyanide chaser. And she likes to wear leather pants so tight, her butt cheeks spread and she tootz when she crouches.
Exhibit A:
http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/4images/data/media/205/xtxmen04.jpg
I rest my case:p

Slung

10-03-2007, 11:33 PM

CmX

10-03-2007, 11:47 PM

I really didn't mind Sage either until she just became the shit lol The unstoppable know it all and it was like, "Argh now I can start telling she's a Claremont pet character" and then nausea came.

KidNewWave

10-04-2007, 08:13 AM

She really went down-hill in New Excalibur,
w/ her librarian look.

jarrod

10-04-2007, 09:26 AM

She really went down-hill in New Excalibur,
w/ her librarian look.
Agreed. Her more annoying ticks always seemed somewhat balanced in X-Treme/Uncany for me because of the positives the character brought to the table (particularly in her pairing with Bishop, which made both characters infinitely more likeable). All that sort of went out the window in NEX tho. :/

Phil Hunn

10-04-2007, 12:58 PM

What do we really know about her over the last 7 years? Not much. She saved the professor and Sebastian Shaw(in a really, really lame retcon), was a pawn of Elais Bogan, and even had scars/tattoos that were never seen until X-Treme X-Men started(LAME) and she is a mystery wrapped in an enigma with a cyanide chaser.

Wel, the tattoos' absence is easily explained by the miracle of foundation, but you're right - Sage as she is now is founded on so many retcons it's almost unbelievable (she was the 6th original X-Man, too, remember?).

She really went down-hill in New Excalibur,
w/ her librarian look.

Nothing wrong with the "hot librarian" look. It's the whole reason my fanboy-heart still belongs to Cobra's Baroness, even after all these years...

GoingGreen

10-04-2007, 01:17 PM

DDM

10-04-2007, 01:19 PM

Wel, the tattoos' absence is easily explained by the miracle of foundation, but you're right - Sage as she is now is founded on so many retcons it's almost unbelievable (she was the 6th original X-Man, too, remember?).

Sage never joined the X-Men. Xavier purposely trained Sage separate from the other original 5 X-Men. It's why Sage resents Xavier because he never trusted her to become a member of the team. Sage's purpose has always been to be a spy in deep cover to the point she is not noticed. I would say she is a pretty good spy, but we don't know what Sage was looking for in the Hellfire Club. It has never been revealed.

Phil Hunn

10-04-2007, 01:29 PM

Sage never joined the X-Men. Xavier purposely trained Sage separate from the other original 5 X-Men. It's why Sage resents Xavier because he never trusted her to become a member of the team. Sage's purpose has always been to be a spy in deep cover to the point she is not noticed. I would say she is a pretty good spy, but we don't know what Sage was looking for in the Hellfire Club. It has never been revealed.

The retcon still doesn't work, though - in stories penned by Claremont himself, Xavier & the X-Men have zero knowledge about the Club (in fact, unless I miss my guess, their first appearance actually came as a surprise to Chuck), so how he managed to learn about the Inner Circle before he actually knew about the Club itself, I don't know.

Then there's the whole "why didn't Sage warn the X-Men about the plot to drive Phoenix nuts?" thing. That's the most glaring hole in this retcon. As a super-spy, I think she makes a pretty good fetish model :p

Dizzy D

10-04-2007, 01:34 PM

The retcon still doesn't work, though - in stories penned by Claremont himself, Xavier & the X-Men have zero knowledge about the Club (in fact, unless I miss my guess, their first appearance actually came as a surprise to Chuck), so how he managed to learn about the Inner Circle before he actually knew about the Club itself, I don't know.

Then there's the whole "why didn't Sage warn the X-Men about the plot to drive Phoenix nuts?" thing. That's the most glaring hole in this retcon. As a super-spy, I think she makes a pretty good fetish model :p

And why didn't she return to Xavier after Sebastian Shaw died?
Or any info the X-Men might want to know.. Emma no longer being in a coma, Selene joining the Club ... anything at all really.

Daithi

10-04-2007, 01:42 PM

I would say she is a pretty good spy, but we don't know what Sage was looking for in the Hellfire Club. It has never been revealed.

So Xavier sent Sage to spy on the Hellfire Club and uncover something. Sage returns to the X-Men and we still don't know what that something is. Based on that and her spy skills in NEX, I don't think she's a good spy at all.

DDM

10-04-2007, 02:53 PM

The retcon still doesn't work, though - in stories penned by Claremont himself, Xavier & the X-Men have zero knowledge about the Club (in fact, unless I miss my guess, their first appearance actually came as a surprise to Chuck), so how he managed to learn about the Inner Circle before he actually knew about the Club itself, I don't know.

Then there's the whole "why didn't Sage warn the X-Men about the plot to drive Phoenix nuts?" thing. That's the most glaring hole in this retcon. As a super-spy, I think she makes a pretty good fetish model :p

With Claremont's original plan for Sage, I don't think Xavier knew of the Hellfire Club's secret Inner Circle at all until Phoenix had been corrupted into the Black Queen.

I really think Chris Claremont had long term plans for Tessa to eventually join the X-Men, but she would not be revealed until the Shadow King forced her out of her spy role.

tetragene

10-04-2007, 03:30 PM

In the NM graphic novel doesn't Xavier think to himself that he can't trust this "Tessa" person, but must at the moment out of necessity?

By far, though--the biggest hole was how she didn't do anything of aid/purpose when it came to the X-Men being bombarded by the Hellfire Club--or Dark Phoenix. Yet in XXM she "risks everything" and blows her cover to Psylocke in order to "save" Psylocke from the club. Yet...apparently couldn't be bothered to do so for Jean...even though it would have meant saving a star system, lol.

DDM

10-04-2007, 05:23 PM

In the NM graphic novel doesn't Xavier think to himself that he can't trust this "Tessa" person, but must at the moment out of necessity?

No. In X-Treme X-Men #4-9, we see a younger Tessa with Xavier mad at her explaining to her that he cannot trust her.

By far, though--the biggest hole was how she didn't do anything of aid/purpose when it came to the X-Men being bombarded by the Hellfire Club--or Dark Phoenix. Yet in XXM she "risks everything" and blows her cover to Psylocke in order to "save" Psylocke from the club. Yet...apparently couldn't be bothered to do so for Jean...even though it would have meant saving a star system, lol.

It's apples & oranges. The Hellfire Club is aware of Jean at the time & have their psychic hooks into her. Psylocke is an unknown quantity & not known to the Inner Circle. Tessa saved Psylocke before the Hellfire Club could corrupt her.

tetragene

10-04-2007, 05:35 PM

No. In X-Treme X-Men #4-9, we see a younger Tessa with Xavier mad at her explaining to her that he cannot trust her.

Nooooo... from uncannyxmen.net:

What to do with Pierce, Xavier wonders. They can’t risk taking him along, nor can they leave him behind. Tessa interjects, telling him to leave Pierce to the Hellfire Club. He’s as much a danger to them as to Xavier’s mutants. Xavier doesn’t trust Tessa or her masters but he sees no choice, as they need to hurry to save Rahne’s life.

It's apples & oranges. The Hellfire Club is aware of Jean at the time & have their psychic hooks into her. Psylocke is an unknown quantity & not known to the Inner Circle. Tessa saved Psylocke before the Hellfire Club could corrupt her.

So...it's "smarter" for her to risk blowing her cover for a "nobody," but its not smart to risk blowing her cover to save Jean (one of Xavier's "fave" students) or the other X-Men...or warn Xavier about the Hellfire Club planning a trap for the X-Men...even though doing so would have prevented a lot of turmoil for Xavier and the X-Men... Oh, alright--that makes a lot of sense.

CmX

10-04-2007, 05:51 PM

xmanson

10-04-2007, 06:08 PM

I love Sage until she went back to the HF. She was great.

Bunch of HATERZ here. Geez.

BTW, I liked tha latest issue.

MarvelGirlBoy

10-04-2007, 06:41 PM

I think Sage, in the X-Treme X-Men, actually showed a lot of potential. People can moan all they like about a clumsy retcon to Tessa, but it made her very interesting as I see it, and a good parallel to Emma Frost.

But, on-topic, I fell in love with the Exiles, as a concept and for the characters themselves, on Bedard's run, with the Exiles vs. Hyperion and Weapon X. I even quite liked the later team even though I found the Proteus saga in between vexing. But Claremont's Exiles have ruined the spirit of the series - that the team had to remain familial and insular, unlike the constantly interlocking 616 teams - with frankly bizarre and confusing plots about HYDRA and the Fantastic Four (ugh) and Wolverine (ugh ugh), and now now a further team change that ditches the heart of the Exiles (Blink, duh).

Meh. Back to traditional X-titles it is, then.

d newton

10-04-2007, 09:47 PM

But it's not smart to risk blowing her cover to save Jean (one of Xavier's "fave" students) or the other X-Men... or warn Xavier about the Hellfire Club planning a trap for the X-Men... even though doing so would have prevented a lot of turmoil for Xavier and the X-Men...
If you were a spy working for the opposition (in this case: Professor X), the first thing you would not do is - tell everyone who you're working for by doing things like those listed above!

CmX

10-04-2007, 11:50 PM

tetragene

10-05-2007, 04:47 AM

If you were a spy working for the opposition (in this case: Professor X), the first thing you would not do is - tell everyone who you're working for by doing things like those listed above!

Apparently you missed my point completely, which was: if Sage risked blowing her cover to save Psylocke (a nobody at the time), then why didn't she risk blowing her cover to save Jean or the X-Men (Xavier's "everything")? I mena--cerebro was tapped, HFC went after Dazzler and Shadowcat, the X-Men were ambushed, HFC wanted Jean's power, etc--stuff that hit the X-Men and Xavier from left field. If Sage could "risk everything" to save Psylocke, then she could have risked everything to save what her employer valued most...

Am I the only one that makes sense to?

ImpulseUCF

10-05-2007, 07:30 AM

Apparently you missed my point completely, which was: if Sage risked blowing her cover to save Psylocke (a nobody at the time), then why didn't she risk blowing her cover to save Jean or the X-Men (Xavier's "everything")? I mena--cerebro was tapped, HFC went after Dazzler and Shadowcat, the X-Men were ambushed, HFC wanted Jean's power, etc--stuff that hit the X-Men and Xavier from left field. If Sage could "risk everything" to save Psylocke, then she could have risked everything to save what her employer valued most...

Am I the only one that makes sense to?No, it makes perfect sense. Perfect.

Novaya Havoc

10-05-2007, 09:30 AM

OMG LOLOLOLOL! Thunderbird is RUINED.

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0710/05/xmensword15.jpg

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0710/05/xmensword16.jpg

WHAT, A CUTE GIRL LIKE YOU DOESN'T BELIEVE IN MIRACLES?!?!? lolol

Nachturne

10-05-2007, 10:10 AM

UGH I just want to STAB MY EYES OUT WITH A BROACH.

WHAT?! WHAT! Dude, if ANYONE wants to argue that this is in character for T-bird, they are severely mentally incapacitated. WHY?! WHY DID YOU HAVE TO RUIN HIM TOO!!! :( :( :(

ImpulseUCF

10-05-2007, 10:50 AM

.....:eek: Errmm...TJ seem to be almost slightly in character. At least they are happy to see each other? :(

That sounds like a bad pick up line. "So, what's a cute girl like YOU doin' not believing in miracles?"

The biggest problem for me is that the dialog is completely generic. It could be any two separated lovers. Still, it could have been worse...

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/9296/tbirdisbackcp7.jpg

jester1436

10-05-2007, 10:51 AM

That is just so damn sad. :(

Nachturne

10-05-2007, 12:57 PM

Considering everything John left behind, that scene is SO remarkably OOC. I mean, this isn't just two lovers reuniting. A man who sacrificed himself for his lover and child, one of which is lost, reuniting with her after that. And it's "cute girl, gimme a hug"?? UGH

Claremont. READ EXILES. SHEESH. I gave him the damn issue!

tetragene

10-05-2007, 03:35 PM

LOL--and we didn't think things could get much worse. I can only imagine what the "Dazzler seeing Longshot alive" scene will look like Nice to see Brian and Betsy have an almost duplicate reaction to their NEX #1 reunion. And Thunderbird is hilarious--watch him be a Juggernaut part deux. Trainwreck in progress

Phil Hunn

10-05-2007, 05:09 PM

OMG LOLOLOLOL! Thunderbird is RUINED.

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0710/05/xmensword15.jpg

He really looks like he's been hit in the head with a rock here, although that is as much down to the artist as it is the writing. He's been turned from the badass Horseman of War T-Bird into Big Loveable Teddy Bear T-Bird.

*cries*

ImpulseUCF

10-05-2007, 05:20 PM

Could be worse...

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3420/scissormealao3.jpg

xmanson

10-05-2007, 05:22 PM

Lots of spare time huh?

Still, deserves a LOL :D

tetragene

10-05-2007, 05:28 PM

Could be worse...

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3420/scissormealao3.jpg

LOL--those two panels worked out perfectly :D

Phil Hunn

10-05-2007, 05:33 PM

Could be worse...

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3420/scissormealao3.jpg

... that's worse? :p

Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost

10-05-2007, 05:50 PM

Could be worse...

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3420/scissormealao3.jpg

She has rogue's hair it's already worse

Slung

10-05-2007, 06:03 PM

Could be worse...

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3420/scissormealao3.jpg

The nipple tweak is my favorite part.

Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost

10-05-2007, 06:04 PM

Funny thing is...you could replace Nocturne with Sunfire and it'd still look like eXiles (b/c Daz looks like Les-rachel)

Faded

10-05-2007, 06:04 PM

The nipple tweak is my favorite part.

LOL, I didn't even notice.

ImpulseUCF

10-05-2007, 08:49 PM

Lots of spare time huh?Nah, that didn't take long. Though my girlfriend came home from work and saw it not quite done and just paused... "Well, you must have been REALLY bored today." LOL. I had to explain about Claremont's S&M bull-dyke lesbianic fetish and "Al" Blaire.
Still, deserves a LOL Thanks! :D
LOL--those two panels worked out perfectly :Dheh. yeah...
... that's worse? :p:eek: .....point well taken.
The nipple tweak is my favorite part.
LOL, I didn't even notice.Funny thing is I didn't even really intend it. My girlfriend pointed it out to me so I ran with it.

d newton

10-05-2007, 10:37 PM

Do you ever make sense?
Are you doing this to be annoying towards posters who like said character even if he/she is a deus ex machina?

Okay, this bit doesn't make sense:
And enthusiasts fail to deliver the reasons why it's good or why they enjoy it.
I've given plenty of reasons on why people enjoy it.

Pach!

10-05-2007, 10:42 PM

Funny thing is...you could replace Nocturne with Sunfire and it'd still look like eXiles (b/c Daz looks like Les-rachel)

She was with Mary Jane,not Rachel.

Phil Hunn

10-06-2007, 07:21 AM

Nah, that didn't take long. Though my girlfriend came home from work and saw it not quite done and just paused... "Well, you must have been REALLY bored today." LOL. I had to explain about Claremont's S&M bull-dyke lesbianic fetish and "Al" Blaire.

I think the fetish is more a mixture of butch dyke & lipstick lesbian, considering most if not all of the women this label has been slapped on are far from the crew-cutted, flannel-shirt-wearing stereotypes that bull-dykes tend to fit. Storm might have a attitude the size of Wyoming, but at least she doesn't look or dress like Guile from Street Fighter II right now (of course, Urban-Biker-Dyke Mohawk-Storm was a different story, I grant you, but still)...

... although it would be amusing to see Buzzcut-Storm summon supersonic bursts of wind by swiping her arms forward and yelling "Sonic BOOM! Sonic BOOM!" before somersault-kicking someone in the face :p

I've given plenty of reasons on why people enjoy it.

Frankly, I'm not sure I've seen any of them other than "Claremont's first run was teh 1337 awesome for 17 years! You just don't respect him, you meanies!"

Flâneur

10-06-2007, 07:39 AM

Could be worse...

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3420/scissormealao3.jpg

Oh fucking LOL.

CmX

10-06-2007, 02:51 PM

TBird probably looked at TJ in her half ass attempt to be a punk rockish bad bitch and those tacky ass bleach blonde bangs and was like, "WTF (err.. devil) was I thinking!? Too late to get back into my stasis wall!"

ImpulseUCF

10-06-2007, 03:34 PM

I think the fetish is more a mixture of butch dyke & lipstick lesbianNow you're just splitting hairs. ;) Please excuse my not full accurate choice of words.

Phil Hunn

10-06-2007, 04:52 PM

Now you're just splitting hairs. ;) Please excuse my not full accurate choice of words.

S'okay :) I just wanted to use the imagery of Storm with a hairstyle you could rest a dinner plate on, wearing army fatigues and yelling "Sonic BOOM!"

Where's the harm in that? ;)

Brian Cronin

10-07-2007, 02:02 AM

I know we can keep this thread just on the topic of New Exiles.

I just know it.

-Brian

DarkCrisis

10-07-2007, 09:43 AM

CC ruined Exiles and Xtreme Exiles sounds and looks horrible. I won't be getting it.

The Surrealist

10-07-2007, 09:46 AM

Morph needs off this team, pronto. He's nothing further to contribute to it. The addition of Psylocke is soo Claremont...he takes his pet characters everywhere with him. I won't be buying this book (I never did dig Exiles in any way-shape, manner or form) but I'll follow the events, I suppose.

BTW, does anyone know which universe this Sabretooth version they're using is from? The Earth 616 one is currently minus a head, right..?

jarrod

10-07-2007, 09:52 AM

if Sage risked blowing her cover to save Psylocke (a nobody at the time),
Just a minor nitpick, but Betsy was a hugely powerful telepath working undercover for STRIKE... not exactly a nobody at the time honestly, she was basically a more genuine (ie: real nose/tits/accent) counter to Emma Frost in status and ability.

Also, she's the (co)heir to Otherworld and the seat of Merlyn's power... though I doubt even google-junkie Tessa could've known that at the time. Betsy still doesn't know herself even. :/

But, still... far from a nobody.

Daithi

10-07-2007, 09:55 AM

But, still... far from a nobody.

But compared to Jean Grey? Not too mention that Sage would have knowledge of the Phoenix stuff, yet can't break her cover for her?

jarrod

10-07-2007, 10:06 AM

But compared to Jean Grey? Not too mention that Sage would have knowledge of the Phoenix stuff, yet can't break her cover for her?
I don't think anyone knew the real extent of the Phoenix though... it's not like Jean emerged from the shuttle crash and ate the moon or anything. Besides, it's questionable just how much information Xaiver gave to Tessa anyway, he may have kept Jean (and Bobby's for that matter) omega status to himself given Tessa's difficult position. What if Tessa became corrupted and the HFC got that information?

Obviously, it's a sloppy retcon, and just doesn't work that well when examined closely (which is more or less standard among decade reaching retcons) but at the time who's to really say Jean should've been a higher priority "save" than Betsy, nevermind the circumstances around both (ie: the HFC wasn't even aware of Betts when Tess shooed her). Honestly, this is hardly the weakest part of the retcon overall...

xmanson

10-07-2007, 11:48 AM

To me the best use of the retcon was if Sage was supposed to be a spy, but decided to join the "dark side" after knowing the HF. She just never told Shaw or anyone out of debt to Xavier or something. Letr on, after being attacked by Bogan and seeing the HF in shambles, she decided to return to Xavier's side.

Dizzy D

10-07-2007, 01:17 PM

Just a minor nitpick, but Betsy was a hugely powerful telepath working undercover for STRIKE...

Other minor nitpick:"hugely powerful"? Not until she started living with Alison and that was after Slaymaster had killed most of STRIKE.

Daithi

10-07-2007, 01:21 PM

I don't think anyone knew the real extent of the Phoenix though... it's not like Jean emerged from the shuttle crash and ate the moon or anything. Besides, it's questionable just how much information Xaiver gave to Tessa anyway, he may have kept Jean (and Bobby's for that matter) omega status to himself given Tessa's difficult position. What if Tessa became corrupted and the HFC got that information?

But she apparently knew that Psylocke was from Otherworld. If she knew that there's no reason she wouldn't know more about the Phoenix.

Sage could have worked fine if she wasn't a spy. She just decides she's had enough of the HFC and joins the X-Men.

jarrod

10-07-2007, 01:36 PM

Other minor nitpick:"hugely powerful"? Not until she started living with Alison and that was after Slaymaster had killed most of STRIKE.
Well... huge potential anyway. She was just as capable as pre-Phoenix Jean. :P

Plus Betsy had moolah, family influence and was embedded with STRIKE... I could see why Tess wouldn't want the HFC ensnaring her.

But she apparently knew that Psylocke was from Otherworld. If she knew that there's no reason she wouldn't know more about the Phoenix.
Did she? Uh... crap, I dunno?

I honestly didn't think even Xaiver knew Betsy was from Otherworld. :D

Sage could have worked fine if she wasn't a spy. She just decides she's had enough of the HFC and joins the X-Men.
I'd have been fine with that actually... hell, even the past "secret" association/training with Xaiver would've been fine.

It could still be worked out though, just passing off Tess as actually having switched sides after being sent for infiltration. But I won't drag up the great "what if Cornell" debate again. ;)

Daithi

10-07-2007, 01:47 PM

I honestly didn't think even Xaiver knew Betsy was from Otherworld. :D

Well it was something Claremont posted on X-Fan. I suppose I could no prize it and say she got the information from the London branch.

Still, I agree that Sage "risking everything" to save Psylocke yet not doing the same for Jean seems odd to say the least.

jarrod

10-07-2007, 01:56 PM

Well it was something Claremont posted on X-Fan. I suppose I could no prize it and say she got the information from the London branch.
That could make sense. I guess Xaiver wasn't around when the New Mutants brought Betsy home either, so maybe he knew as well.

Still, I agree that Sage "risking everything" to save Psylocke yet not doing the same for Jean seems odd to say the least.
Sure, but I just don't think it was the same sort of "risk" involved. Jean had been targeted by Mastermind for awhile and the X-Men were on the Club's rader too... but Besty was going in undercover. Seemed more to me like Tessa saw her chance with Betsy, took it and never really had that sort of chance with Jean (or Emma for that matter).

Dizzy D

10-07-2007, 02:04 PM

Well... huge potential anyway. She was just as capable as pre-Phoenix Jean. :P

Meh, Jean was trained by the world's best telepath since she was a teenager. Betsy started to develop her powers at 20? 25? (Anyway, early Captain Britain.)

jarrod

10-07-2007, 02:11 PM

Meh, Jean was trained by the world's best telepath since she was a teenager. Betsy started to develop her powers at 20? 25? (Anyway, early Captain Britain.)
Around the same age as Brian iirc, maybe a little later (so early/mid 20s). She'd have been in her mid/late 20s when the HFC incident happened I think (Jean was 22-23 when the HFC got her).

Besides which, Betsy developed all on her lonesome, she didn't have Xaiver leading the way (though that may be something of a double edged sword, as he was putting limits on Jean too).

Phil Hunn

10-07-2007, 03:28 PM

BTW, does anyone know which universe this Sabretooth version they're using is from? The Earth 616 one is currently minus a head, right..?

It's the AoA version of Sabretooth (in a new costume).

To me the best use of the retcon was if Sage was supposed to be a spy, but decided to join the "dark side" after knowing the HF.

Or she could have defected during that six-month gap before the 2000 Revolution, which would both make the most sense and not require all these endless and very lame continuity patches.

Novaya Havoc

10-08-2007, 08:01 AM

Could be worse...

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3420/scissormealao3.jpg

OMFG I just burst out with laughter at my desk! Ahhahahahahaha!

ImpulseUCF

10-08-2007, 08:42 AM

OMFG I just burst out with laughter at my desk! Ahhahahahahaha!I was wondering when you'd get around to commenting!! Glad you like.

DDM

10-08-2007, 09:51 AM

Meh, Jean was trained by the world's best telepath since she was a teenager. Betsy started to develop her powers at 20? 25? (Anyway, early Captain Britain.)

But when the Hellfire Club & Mastermind targeted Jean Grey she was already Phoenix. Since Jean now possessed psychic powers beyond human comprehension, Jean was well on her way to the dark side given how human nature responded to her as Phoenix. Phoenix's powers made Jean feel good; therefore, she kept using her powers more & more often...

Mastermind just exploited Jean's human weaknesses...

KidNewWave

10-08-2007, 09:51 AM

Scissor, Scissor! :eek:

Dizzy D

10-08-2007, 10:04 AM

But when the Hellfire Club & Mastermind targeted Jean Grey she was already Phoenix. Since Jean now possessed psychic powers beyond human comprehension, Jean was well on her way to the dark side given how human nature responded to her as Phoenix. Phoenix's powers made Jean feel good; therefore, she kept using her powers more & more often...

Mastermind just exploited Jean's human weaknesses...

You really haven't been following the discussion in question, have you?

DDM

10-08-2007, 10:07 AM

You really haven't been following the discussion in question, have you?

Jean's training with Xavier did not save her from being corrupted due to her now limitless abilities as Phoenix; Jean was by herself--alone, isolated--away from the X-Men thinking they were dead. Jean's vulnerable. Her being Phoenix actually helped Mastermind in corrupting Jean. Did I connect the dots for you? If not, you need to follow the conversation.

Dizzy D

10-08-2007, 10:18 AM

Jean's training with Xavier did not save her from being corrupted due to her now limitless abilities as Phoenix; Jean was by herself--alone, isolated--away from the X-Men thinking they were dead. Jean's vulnerable. Her being Phoenix actually helped Mastermind in corrupting Jean. Did I connect the dots for you? If not, you need to follow the conversation.

Oh god, completely not what I was talking about with jarrod. Pay attention next time.

tetragene

10-08-2007, 03:51 PM

Jean's training with Xavier did not save her from being corrupted due to her now limitless abilities as Phoenix; Jean was by herself--alone, isolated--away from the X-Men thinking they were dead. Jean's vulnerable. Her being Phoenix actually helped Mastermind in corrupting Jean. Did I connect the dots for you? If not, you need to follow the conversation.

Are you sure you are following the right conversation? :confused:

To catch you up--they were discussing Psylocke vs Jean powerlevels at the time of Psylocke's HFC experience and Jean's HFC experience.

Oh...and Sage is a big fat, sloppy retcon! :D

ImpulseUCF

10-08-2007, 04:02 PM

Oh...and Sage is a big fat, sloppy retcon! :D :eek: Tetragene!! Leave Tessa alone!!
http://www.whudat.com/news/images/chris-crocker-2.jpg

Phil Hunn

10-08-2007, 04:57 PM

Oh...and Sage is a big fat, sloppy retcon! :D

Impulse is right. Leave Sage alone! It's not her fault she's had so many things bolted onto her she should look like Seven-of-Nine by now!

:p

DDM

10-08-2007, 05:08 PM

Are you sure you are following the right conversation? :confused:

To catch you up--they were discussing Psylocke vs Jean powerlevels at the time of Psylocke's HFC experience and Jean's HFC experience.

Oh...and Sage is a big fat, sloppy retcon! :D

Although Psylocke & Phoenix are both psi's, Phoenix is far more powerful than Psylocke. There's no comparison. Betsy's time with the Hellfire Club is nothing compared to Jean's since Phoenix was corrupted into the Black Queen; whereas, Psylocke was literally kicked out by Tessa before the Hellfire Club could their hooks into her & her intital plan to find the Hellfire Club's secrets were aborted...

Thanks for clearing things up.

Blade X

10-08-2007, 05:30 PM

It's so clearly obvious Sage as an X-Man or a spy is a major ass retcon. There's no flippin way, there's PROOF from way back that it wasn't his original intention. Yeah obviously CC tried to retcon it in Xtreme XMen, but the proof is there it doesn't change what's already been printed DMM.

I have to agree with you on this one.

Let's be honest, Sage's past as a secret spy for the X-Men was a HUGE retcon NOT because CC forgot about or ignored his own stories, but because he needed a character in order to make the stories he's currently telling work. The same goes for her powers. I have to wonder if CC could pick and choose all of the characters he wanted for XXM and was able to resurect Psylocke during that series like he originally intended to, would Sage be the same character she is today. I should also point out, that HUGE retcons for characters has been SOP for Marvel since Quesada became EIC.

Babylon23

10-08-2007, 05:59 PM

We're still arguing the Sage retcon point? Surely even the most adamant Claremont fans can admit that this was a major retcon that doesn't really fit the established continuity.

for the most part, I like the guy's writing, but even I can see that this one doesn't fit.

Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost

10-08-2007, 07:46 PM

Well....If Sage were really a spy for Xavier and if Slung's theory that Emma & Mastermind were responsible for Jean becoming Dark Phoenix...then both Sage and Xavier are equally responsible for Dark Phoenix because if Sage were really a spy she should've stopped them before Jean went evil.

So SAGE is responsible for the D'bari system being destroyed...bloody living laptop of Xavier's.

ImpulseUCF

10-15-2007, 03:04 PM

From Marvel's January solicits:

NEW EXILES #1
Written by Chris Claremont
Penciled by Tom Grummett
Cover by GREG LAND
Variant Cover by MICHAEL GOLDEN
Beginning a new era for the Exiles — with a new team, and a new mandate, to safeguard the fate and future of the Omniverse. New leader, new members, new worlds, new adversaries. They’ve barely begun to get to know one another when they’re thrust into their first mission — summoned to a world where the dawn of the historic Marvel Age turns out instead to be a prelude to global catastrophe. Meanwhile, back at the Crystal Palace, Sage struggles with a psychic curse that may well make her the new team’s greatest liability.Shocked. SHOCKED!!! Sage is indeed going to be among the cast for New Exiles. I'm as shocked as I am thrilled.

I'm sure nobody saw this coming...

Gibbering Fool

10-15-2007, 03:43 PM

Phil Hunn

10-15-2007, 06:09 PM

From Marvel's January solicits:

Shocked. SHOCKED!!! Sage is indeed going to be among the cast for New Exiles. I'm as shocked as I am thrilled.

I'm sure nobody saw this coming...

I certainly didn't. It's right up there with Xorn being Magneto all along ;)

CmX

10-15-2007, 06:10 PM

Greatest liability? Is he going to restore Sage's telepathy and NOT Psylocke's !? That would murder me on the inside and I would never buy anything with CC's name on it again.

Vegetarian Goat

10-15-2007, 06:19 PM

Out of curiosity, is there anyone here who's looking forward to this book? Or has any information about it, other than the inclusion of less-than-loved characters?

Joe Franklin

10-15-2007, 06:19 PM

As bad as the New Exiles solicit looks, if Sabretooth is in it, I will still buy it. Grummet's art is prety solid as well. Not spectacular, just solid.

DDM

10-15-2007, 06:37 PM

Greatest liability? Is he going to restore Sage's telepathy and NOT Psylocke's !? That would murder me on the inside and I would never buy anything with CC's name on it again.

Sage is a mutant human computer. Chris Claremont took away Sage's telepathy because it has never been a part of her characterization.

As for Psylocke's telepathy, I think Claremont has something going on with her that only he knows. Psylocke has improved greatly since he began rewriting Betsy again.

EnDwiGast

10-15-2007, 06:45 PM

See teh Exiles: Then and Now cover? Sage, Cat, Manstique and Rogue are clearly on there. It looks like those four plus Morph and Sabertooth are the new Exiels after all. Other than Morph I don't give a damn about those characters, and Claremont doesn't even write him well.

Really? Thats the line-up?

That doesn't sound like anything new at all, just a standard X-men variant line-up.

I was hoping for a much higher percentage of totally new characters.

If thats what this will be then i'm going to have to pass on it.

HellFrost

10-15-2007, 06:52 PM

Sage is a mutant human computer. Chris Claremont took away Sage's telepathy because it has never been a part of her characterization.

As for Psylocke's telepathy, I think Claremont has something going on with her that only he knows. Psylocke has improved greatly since he began rewriting Betsy again.

I think so aswell. I especially love the jab at Marvel he put in by making Betsy say "There's never a bloody telepath around when you need one!" Lol.

His writing is back on parr the way it should be.:)

blinkinrogue

10-15-2007, 08:40 PM

will blink be shifted to a new team (I HOPE SO). btw, has the official lineup been announced?

Joe Franklin

10-15-2007, 08:44 PM

btw, has the official lineup been announced?

No it has not, but it has been strongly hinted at with that cover for Exiles Days of then & now by artist Francis Tsai.

End of Time

10-16-2007, 05:17 AM

I certainly didn't. It's right up there with Xorn being Magneto all along ;)

Ethan van Sciver knew that secret all along.

Personally I'm going to take a wait and see route as to New Exiles.

The psychic curse can go either way, it can mean that Sage is at risk of becoming posessed, or it could mean something else, like some sort of degrading psychic virus that eats away her brain untill she's incapable of conducting her work, driving her mad.

Part of me hopes for something other than the possession thing, part of me fears it.

But I'll go and give it a chance.

Karl H

10-16-2007, 05:23 AM

The one-shot sounds promising.

As for New Exiles - massive Fail.

Phil Hunn

10-16-2007, 12:48 PM

Ethan van Sciver knew that secret all along.

I'm sure plenty of people did. I suspect that the whole "dead is dead" rule was instituted so that we wouldn't see it coming...

Personally I'm going to take a wait and see route as to New Exiles.

I waited and saw. I think I'll pass.

The one-shot sounds promising.

As for New Exiles - massive Fail.

It's a proven fact that anything essentially labelled as "The New Adventures Of..." is contractually bound to suck. I don't see that tradition ending here, sadly.

Green Arrow Jr.

10-16-2007, 03:25 PM

Does anyone know the roster of the New Exiles?
I'm hoping for:
Blink
Spidergirl(May Parker from Heralds)
Nocturne
Captain Britain
Havok
Thunderbird(John)
Sage

Beast

10-16-2007, 03:28 PM

So far it's sounding like...

Psylocke
Sage
Cat (Kitty Pryde)
Sabretooth*
Mystic (Male Mystique)
Rogue
Morph* (Hopefully free of Proteus. :p)

But that's just from the new introductions from the last issue. No clue who else may stay.

*These were shown in un-used costume design previews. So they may or may not remain.

Green Arrow Jr.

10-16-2007, 03:31 PM

I like Ex-titles more than X-titles, I was a fan of Exiles, Excalibur,New Excalibur,and I know I'll like the New Exiles.

ImpulseUCF

10-16-2007, 04:02 PM

I like Ex-titles more than X-titles, I was a fan of Exiles, Excalibur,New Excalibur,and I know I'll like the New Exiles. Isn't it a little early to tell? I loved Exiles at its inception, but now I can barely recognize the book.

Dagger

10-16-2007, 04:05 PM

Isn't it a little early to tell? I loved Exiles at its inception, but now I can barely recognize the book.
Just wait til it becomes The New Captain Britain Corps book, featuring Sage and Albion's lesbian sister! It's a guaranteed SMASH1!!:p

Nachturne

10-16-2007, 04:06 PM

Don't we have a thread about New Exiles? Called New Exiles??

Nachturne

10-16-2007, 04:11 PM

Isn't it a little early to tell? I loved Exiles at its inception, but now I can barely recognize the book.

Hey, it seems like his prerequisite is it start with "Ex". If that's the case, he'll hardly be disappointed.

AnkaleRa

10-16-2007, 04:48 PM

Beast

10-16-2007, 05:02 PM

Could you share the link to these unused costume design previews?
Here you go. It's covered in the other New Exiles thread.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/MasterSplinter/UnusedNewExilesCover.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/MasterSplinter/NewExiles-CostumeDesigns.jpg

Beast

10-16-2007, 05:06 PM

And this is what Chris Claremont said about those costume designs:
Dear Folks --

On a purely technical note, the design sketches refered to were some samples turned in months ago when we were running through the formative planning stages of what was then the post-100 run of the series. Obviously, a whole lot has changes since then. The pictures are nice to look at, but they're nowhere near where we are with the series, nor where we're (hopefully) going.

Sorry about that.

On the other hand, you're in for a real treat in tearms of #100, wherein Tom Grummet makes his debut on the series as penciler. To call the visuals finestkind is to do the art and that description an injustice.

And the next issue is even better!

Consider it our Xmas present.

chris claremont

ToxicTeen

10-16-2007, 06:14 PM

I'm curious of what will become of Blink? Is she gonna back to her own time or stay on Earth 616?

Stagier

10-16-2007, 06:17 PM

this is going to be another X book with 616 mutants for claremont to splooge all his ideas that were canned in regular continuity...

dang..

Beast

10-16-2007, 06:19 PM

I'm curious of what will become of Blink? Is she gonna back to her own time or stay on Earth 616?
Since they teased following up Blink's connection to Apocalypse, I have a feeling she may stay in 616.

AnkaleRa

10-16-2007, 07:55 PM

Here you go. It's covered in the other New Exiles thread.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/MasterSplinter/UnusedNewExilesCover.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/MasterSplinter/NewExiles-CostumeDesigns.jpg

Thanks Beast! I've actually seen that second picture on deviantart before. Quite some time ago, too.

Matthew K.

10-16-2007, 08:00 PM

this is going to be another X book with 616 mutants for claremont to splooge all his ideas that were canned in regular continuity...

dang..

We're losing Rogue & Psylocke?

WHAT? for real?

Stagier

10-17-2007, 02:41 AM

i don't read exiles, but there is apparently a non 616 rogue, 616 betsy and tessa are there though.

when was it revealed that blink and pocy were related? what...? why... she isn't even our blink....

KidNewWave

10-17-2007, 09:35 AM

Sabretooth has been pretty useless on his entire run on exiles.
I don't know why they don't get rid of him. Since he has been
back Clarice has taken a back seat which is really sad.

SO SO SO happy to see Miguel go, I LOVE his character, but
HE ALSO has served a minimal purpose in the Exiles during his membership.

My Dream Line-ups for both books after the X-Over.

Exiles:

Blink (Leader)
Nocturne
Warpath (who can easily replace Sabretooth)
Morph (Not Proteus)
Sage (makes sense on this book)
Rogue

Excalibur:

Psylocke (Leader if Brian dies)
Meggan (triumphant return during x over)
Nightcrawler (possible leader after MC)
Cat (from Exiles)
Wisdom
Dazzler
Longshot

a boy can dream

Phil Hunn

10-17-2007, 01:30 PM

We're losing Rogue & Psylocke?

WHAT? for real?

Psylocke's been dead to the core X-Titles for some time now :(

Why do you think she has to keep finding her brother to tell him she's still alive? ;)

when was it revealed that blink and pocy were related? what...? why... she isn't even our blink....

Apocalypse's connection to Blink (and to Chamber) was revealed - or at least heavily intimated - in the awesome Apocalypse Versus Dracula miniseries by Frank Tieri and Clayton Henry. Apparently, in his five thousand-odd years of life, Apocalypse has been quite the ladies' man, and in the 19th century he had a whole bunch of descendents in London and all over the world calling themselves the "Clan Akkaba" (after Poccy's hometown in Egypt). In the London meeting of the Clan, there was a Mr Starsmore and a Mr Ferguson. Mr Starsmore had fire-breathing powers, so that pretty much says "definitely Chamber's ancestor", but I can't recall what powers the other fellow had...

Jesse Newcomb

10-17-2007, 01:43 PM

Apocalypse's connection to Blink (and to Chamber) was revealed - or at least heavily intimated - in the awesome Apocalypse Versus Dracula miniseries by Frank Tieri and Clayton Henry. Apparently, in his five thousand-odd years of life, Apocalypse has been quite the ladies' man, and in the 19th century he had a whole bunch of descendents in London and all over the world calling themselves the "Clan Akkaba" (after Poccy's hometown in Egypt). In the London meeting of the Clan, there was a Mr Starsmore and a Mr Ferguson. Mr Starsmore had fire-breathing powers, so that pretty much says "definitely Chamber's ancestor", but I can't recall what powers the other fellow had...
*
Teleportation.

Phil Hunn

10-17-2007, 01:44 PM

*
Teleportation.

Makes sense, I guess.

Thanks for the save :)

jarrod

10-17-2007, 01:48 PM

Dream lieups?

Excalibur
-Wisdom (gritty lead, new mutant focused government mandate, "not your daddy's Excalibur")
-Sage (know-it-all, pefectionist second in command... regularly drunk)
-Micromax (MI6 loan, clashes with Wisdom regularly)
-Sabra (O*N*E plant, shifting allegiences, budding romance with Micro)
-Kylun (adjusting to "modern" life, almost comical stereotypical do-gooder)
-Alchemy (adjusting to superheroics, drafted into group by government)
-Tangerine (13 year old, frighteningly powerful telepath... the "last" British mutant left)

neXiles
-don't care, but no 616ers

Misc
-Betsy & Brian go to Ellis, Brian "retires" (srsly)
-Dazz goes to Bendis, fab in Madripoor

Jesse Newcomb

10-17-2007, 01:54 PM

Makes sense, I guess.

Thanks for the save :)

http://i21.tinypic.com/2zy92s3.jpg
http://i23.tinypic.com/2l8cjgw.jpg

ImpulseUCF

10-17-2007, 01:56 PM

...WTF is this from?!

KidNewWave

10-17-2007, 02:03 PM

Dream lieups?

Well those are my lists w/ the characters that we have to choose from at the moment. will be back w/ my real dream team...........

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0710/16/exilesdays.jpg

Phil Hunn

10-17-2007, 02:06 PM

...WTF is this from?!

It's from Apocalypse Vs Dracula. A book everyone should read because of the sheer audacity of the concept.

Shyft

10-17-2007, 02:16 PM

no more Longshot or Spiderman 2099? LAME. those two should do their own book. Two of the coolest characters in the MU.

blinkinrogue

10-18-2007, 03:32 AM

still no word where clarice will end up??? :confused:

blinkinrogue

10-18-2007, 03:35 AM

Since they teased following up Blink's connection to Apocalypse, I have a feeling she may stay in 616.

ohhh goodie blink go with rogue's team, wherever she is LOL YESSSSSS

blinkinrogue

10-18-2007, 03:36 AM

http://i21.tinypic.com/2zy92s3.jpg
http://i23.tinypic.com/2l8cjgw.jpg

its a good thing clarice never kills people like this....

CmX

10-18-2007, 04:38 AM

Awesome! They should totally have Poccy revive 616 Blink as one of his horsemen or finds her somehow and brings her back and have her join an x-team, but that would be kinda.. random.

blinkinrogue

10-18-2007, 04:48 AM

awww 616 blink was just the most helpless innocent character i have ever read, pixie resembled her a lot in that regard imo

Phil Hunn

10-18-2007, 12:03 PM

Awesome! They should totally have Poccy revive 616 Blink as one of his horsemen or finds her somehow and brings her back and have her join an x-team, but that would be kinda.. random.

If they follow up her connection to Apocalypse, this is totally how it should go:

Apocalypse: Magneto never told you what happened to your father...

Blink: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!

Apocalypse: No. I am your father!

Blink: No, no, that's not true - that's impossible!

Apocalypse: Well, yeah. I'm actually your great-grandfather by several generations, but... well... you know me. All melodramatics and such.

Blink: Wait a second... if I'm your descendant, why didn't you rescue me from the slave-pens?

Apocalypse: Ah, now you see, that's a funny story, and I'll tell it to you once I've, uh, found something... in the attic... that I've been meaning to give to you. Wait there...

*he leaves. There is the sound of running feet, a car door opening and slamming shut, and the squeal of tyres as the car drives away*

Blink: ... dammit. Stupid relatives...

CmX

10-18-2007, 01:05 PM

If they follow up her connection to Apocalypse, this is totally how it should go:

Apocalypse: Magneto never told you what happened to your father...

Blink: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!

Apocalypse: No. I am your father!

Blink: No, no, that's not true - that's impossble!

Apocalypse: Well, yeah. I'm actually your great-grandfather by several generations, but... well... you know me. All melodramatics and such.

Blink: Wait a second... if I'm your descendant, why didn't you rescue me from the slave-pens?

Apocalypse: Ah, now you see, that's a funny story, and I'll tell it to you once I've, uh, found something... in the attic... that I've been meaning to give to you. Wait there...

*he leaves. There is the sound of running feet, a car door opening and slamming shut, and the squeal of tyres as the car drives away*

Blink: ... dammit. Stupid relatives...

lmao! That reminds me so much of the Simpsons, loves it. <3