interesting article with a claremont mention

[dotdotdot]

sort of enlightening. to preface: article about the supposed author of the hoax "necronomicon", and the chelsea new age/occult scene in the 70s.

the doom that came to chelsea (http://www.nypress.com/16/23/news&columns/feature.cfm)

[dotdotdot]

actually, if you aren't interested in reading the whole thing (which is a pretty sweet article), here you go:

"In short, he knew the signifiers and emblems of authority, and played them to the hilt. He hinted broadly of dealings with intelligence agencies and secret societies operating at global levels of social influence. He began teaching classes in the back room, and showed a genuine knack for clarifying and elucidating such baroque encrypted arcana as John Dee’s Enochian magick system in such a way as to make it understandable even to a novice. He also lacked the guts to let a woman know when he was through with her, or so Bonnie said. She was positioned to know at the time, despite her failing marriage to Chris Claremont, the comic book author who put the X-Men on the map. Chris was her third husband. I was her fourth, and last."

just makes me wonder how close claremont was to this sort of scene, if bonnie went on to marry the author of this article.

[Pro]

Interesting article. Not sure about Claremont, i certainly haven't seen anything in his writing that might have been an indication save perhaps for his use of the N'garai in one or two stories which bear similarities to Cthuloid monsters but that's pretty farfetched as a clue.

I've read quite a bit of the teachings of the order of the golden dawn, on which Crowley's own OTO was based and it's interesting to read how it spun out of control into a degenerate squibling bunch of sexcrazed druggies.
Too bad, the teachings of the golden dawn provide a decent magical system, albeit too rigid for my taste.

I did find this little tidbit though which might have been influenced by this whole thing.

She left me her Necronomicon, number 141 of the first edition of 666 hardcover copies, inscribed by Simon: "To Greymalkin, As per the missing page of the Nec… ‘Blessed Is, Blessed Was, Blessed Will Be…’"

The home address of the X-Mansion on Greymalkin Lane refer to this.
Greymalkin is the familiar of the 3 witches in Macbeth. It basically means grey cat.

[Dizzy D]

Interesting article. Not sure about Claremont, i certainly haven't seen anything in his writing that might have been an indication save perhaps for his use of the N'garai in one or two stories which bear similarities to Cthuloid monsters but that's pretty farfetched as a clue.

I've read quite a bit of the teachings of the order of the golden dawn, on which Crowley's own OTO was based and it's interesting to read how it spun out of control into a degenerate squibling bunch of sexcrazed druggies.
Too bad, the teachings of the golden dawn provide a decent magical system, albeit too rigid for my taste.

I did find this little tidbit though which might have been influenced by this whole thing.



The home address of the X-Mansion on Greymalkin Lane refer to this.
Greymalkin is the familiar of the 3 witches in Macbeth. It basically means grey cat.

I wonder if it was Claremont who revealed the address of the X-mansion or one of the earlier writers. There are some more clues to Claremont having read Lovecraft throughout the series; Magneto's "R'lyeh" base in Uncanny #150, Belasco's Elder Gods, but I see little influence from Crowley and Lovecraft in his Dr. Strange stories, the exact place where you would expect something like that to come up. And Captain Britain, his other series with strong mystical/magical background seems to be more inspired by Arthurian legends.

[dotdotdot]

yeah i mean cmon.....r'lyeh, inferno, some of the s&m/bondage..........i wonder what circles chris hung out in in the 70s. i don't think its farfetched to speculate on that.

[DDM]

Chris Claremont has an interest in the occult & secret societies, but, from what I read, it's nothing more than a hobby. True, his occult & secret societies interests have manifested in Uncanny X-Men with Belasco's corruption of Illyana Rasputin into the Dakrchilde, a mutant who uses black magik for good purposes. The Hellfire Club is the most obvious secret society in Uncanny X-Men. Otherwise, all I see is an attempt to read the tea leaves.

[dotdotdot]

Chris Claremont has an interest in the occult & secret societies, but, from what I read, it's nothing more than a hobby. True, his occult & secret societies interests have manifested in Uncanny X-Men with Belasco's corruption of Illyana Rasputin into the Dakrchilde, a mutant who uses black magik for good purposes. The Hellfire Club is the most obvious secret society in Uncanny X-Men. Otherwise, all I see is an attempt to read the tea leaves.

it was something he had in common with an exwife, it seems

[david r]

This is true. Not only true, but Bonnie, his first wife, was deeply involved the occult during the 1970s. Now whether Chris Claremont himself dabbled in any of this, is unknown.

If you read his Dr. Strange, horror books, or Belasco/Illyana stories, it makes you wonder.


Who knew?

[Rivka]

it was something he had in common with an exwife, it seems

I just talked to Paty Cockrum, who knew Bonnie and was at the wedding of Chris Claremont and Bonnie in 1976. She said that Chris was NOT into the occult at all -- he was considered the most straight-arrow of all the young creators at Marvel. Dave Cockrum was a huge Lovecraft fan, however. The address of the X-Mansion, on Graymalkin Lane was all Dave. He put that in the comics. Paty thinks, since he knew Bonnie also, that he was giving her a nod. But Dave said himself, he used "Greymalkin" because he liked the name.

Dave invented the visuals of Belasco's realm, and those of the ancient civilization of Magneto's Bermuda Triangle Island -- and all of it was very heavily influenced by Lovecraft.

Paty said, that Greenwich Village and the surrounding area in the early 1970s sort of invented this occult stuff out of the Lovecraftian mythos, influenced as well by Crowley, and others as mentioned in the article. She said she checked out the "Warlock Shop" and "Magickal Childe" back then. (Paty worked at Marvel at the time.) She reminded me, that you all take for granted the over-the-counter availability of herbs and non-traditional remedies these days, but back then, the ancient traditions of non-traditional healing was considered counter-culture and really fringe. Paty says the Magickal Childe had about the best selction of herbs and herbal remedies and instructions on creating infusions and the like of any place in New York. Now you can get St. John's Wort in a pill at the drug store, but back then, if you even knew what it was for, you had to go to one of these shops for it. It was the hippy, counter-culture era.

Paty also said that Marvel writers often put tongue-in-cheek references from Crowley, Lovecraft, etc. into the comics. Chris did this, Roy Thomas did this. It was part of the spirit of the times. It was considered part of the pop culture of New York City.

I really think this article was a salute to the passing of a nice lady, by her ex-husband. She died after a struggle with cancer. Paty says two of Bonnie's friends who were helping her in Florida, where she was staying in the Hospice House, contacted Dave and Paty a few years ago, to let them know how ill Bonnie was. I really hope this article was mentioned on this message board out of respect, and not some attempt to insult either the author, Chris Claremont, or Bonnie.

[Rivka]

This is true. Not only true, but Bonnie, his first wife, was deeply involved the occult during the 1970s. Now whether Chris Claremont himself dabbled in any of this, is unknown.

If you read his Dr. Strange, horror books, or Belasco/Illyana stories, it makes you wonder.

Tragically, several years after their divorce, Bonnie committed suicide. In the 1980s. Any mentions of magick disappeared from the X-books almost entirely soon after.

Who knew?

Bonnie passed away after a struggle with cancer. Paty Cockrum says Bonnie was not "heavily" into the occult, but just flirting with it, and really didn't stick with it. Most of the people involved in the "occult" New York scene at the time were pretty superficially involved. The genuine practitioners of the wiccan religion -- i.e., witchcraft - were bemused by all the drama in Greenwich Village at the time. The various factions were each claiming lineage and antiquity and mostly all of it was made up a few years earlier from reading too much Lovecraft (and forgetting it was fiction), and Crowley. This is Paty's opinion, and she was there at the time, and she is an expert on these matters.

[dotdotdot]

everyone settle down, nothing to get defensive about. i hate claremont, but this was just an interesting article that might generate discussion. obviously in the 70s it wouldn't take some sort of heavy occult training to generate the pop culture influences we see in xmen issues, but it's just interesting to picture claremont intimately involved in this chelsea scene. there's no implication of anything insulting involved.

[Brian Cronin]

everyone settle down, nothing to get defensive about. i hate claremont, but this was just an interesting article that might generate discussion. obviously in the 70s it wouldn't take some sort of heavy occult training to generate the pop culture influences we see in xmen issues, but it's just interesting to picture claremont intimately involved in this chelsea scene. there's no implication of anything insulting involved.

Agreed.

Interesting article.

And yes, folks, please just respond to what someone says/posts, not to the "hidden meaning" you think is behind their posts.

-Brian

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Chris Claremont has an interest in the occult & secret societies, but, from what I read, it's nothing more than a hobby. True, his occult & secret societies interests have manifested in Uncanny X-Men with Belasco's corruption of Illyana Rasputin into the Dakrchilde, a mutant who uses black magik for good purposes. The Hellfire Club is the most obvious secret society in Uncanny X-Men. Otherwise, all I see is an attempt to read the tea leaves.

The Hellfire Club was, of course, the affectionate name given in the press to a genuine society in England. A society which, while not having been in the same form by Crowley's time, was kind of associated.

This kind of stuff interests me. I live a 10 minute drive from Crowley's birthplace, and family home. Surprisingly, though, there is no heritage plaque to mark this event.

[jarrod]

Wow. Morrison really is the modern Claremont it seems. ;)

[DDM]

The mystical Tree of Life & Chris Claremont's Phoenix has interesting parallels:

The Tipereth is the indeed the heart of the tree; it is also a symbol of beauty. The analogies for the Tipereth is 1) a phoenix 2) Apollo, the Sun God. I think it is interesting how Chris Claremont intergrated these basic ideas into Phoenix's character such as using the Tree of Life analogy in Uncanny X-Men #108 & Uncanny X-Men #135; Jean's Phoenix Effect since she now possesses the power of a star or sun.

[DDM]

The Hellfire Club was, of course, the affectionate name given in the press to a genuine society in England. A society which, while not having been in the same form by Crowley's time, was kind of associated.

This kind of stuff interests me. I live a 10 minute drive from Crowley's birthplace, and family home. Surprisingly, though, there is no heritage plaque to mark this event.

Yes, although the Hellfire Club is based in fact, Chris Claremont's fictional Hellfire Club is a synthesis of several basic ideas since the Lords Cardinal--the Inner Circle--is named after chess pieces to signify rank & power status. And the Hellfire Club uses socio-political means to achieve power instead of fighting on the battle field. Chris Claremont also turned the idea of sex on its head to be used as a weapon & the rulers to use their influence to gain more power. The Hellfire Club & Mystique's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants/Freedom Force seem to be outlet for Chris' political writing.

[Pro]

The mystical Tree of Life & Chris Claremont's Phoenix has interesting parallels:

The Tipereth is the indeed the heart of the tree; it is also a symbol of beauty. The analogies for the Tipereth is 1) a phoenix 2) Apollo, the Sun God. I think it is interesting how Chris Claremont intergrated these basic ideas into Phoenix's character such as using the Tree of Life analogy in Uncanny X-Men #108 & Uncanny X-Men #135; Jean's Phoenix Effect since she now possesses the power of a star or sun.

Phoenix enlightened is indeed tiphereth but Jean's life can be seen as the progress of the soul along various sephiroth on the tree of life.
Jean before her mutant powers is malkuth, jean with powers is Yesod or Hodh when she learns to control the mind, Jean as the destroyer is geburah and jean as phoenix the life bringer is Binah who gives form to unformed life, Jean as endless source of energy is chochmah, jean sacrificing herself to prevent further lives being lost could be seen as the ultimate act of mercy placing her in chessed, etc.

[dotdotdot]

The mystical Tree of Life & Chris Claremont's Phoenix has interesting parallels:

The Tipereth is the indeed the heart of the tree; it is also a symbol of beauty. The analogies for the Tipereth is 1) a phoenix 2) Apollo, the Sun God. I think it is interesting how Chris Claremont intergrated these basic ideas into Phoenix's character such as using the Tree of Life analogy in Uncanny X-Men #108 & Uncanny X-Men #135; Jean's Phoenix Effect since she now possesses the power of a star or sun.

well the inferno trade has the tree of life motif on the back

[dotdotdot]

also - does everyone have to give their little tidbit of hellfire club research or whatever?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club

there. no pissing contests allowed.

[Arilou]

Bonnie passed away after a struggle with cancer. Paty Cockrum says Bonnie was not "heavily" into the occult, but just flirting with it, and really didn't stick with it. Most of the people involved in the "occult" New York scene at the time were pretty superficially involved. The genuine practitioners of the wiccan religion -- i.e., witchcraft - were bemused by all the drama in Greenwich Village at the time. The various factions were each claiming lineage and antiquity and mostly all of it was made up a few years earlier from reading too much Lovecraft (and forgetting it was fiction), and Crowley. This is Paty's opinion, and she was there at the time, and she is an expert on these matters.

*cough couh* You mean just like the rest of it? :p

The irony being that some of the stuff that can nowadays legitimitalely claim to be ancient (some of the Rosicrucian stuff) was, when it started up, "made up just a few years earlier".

[Frank]

I think the dealings with the occult gave Chris the powers to do X-Men. But there was catch: the sortilege was that he would know fame and fortune but will never know it outside of X-Men and will be the slave of the warrior women.

[MartinRedmond]

So Chris can't cast spells?