The Deaths of ... the X-Men IGN Interview w/ Brubaker [Archive]

CaptainCanada

09-14-2007, 10:43 PM

Interesting interview; so it looks like we'll be seeing the X-Men's relation to the Initiative dealt with post-MC. My guess would be that Cyclops is talking with Iron Man after the X-Men kick the Sentinels off the Institute and demand they be left alone. Also, perhaps this means that he gets to timeshare Cyclops with AXM now.

Also, the irony of the X-Men operating freely while every other superhuman in the country is drafted is hilarious.

Glad he likes Layla Miller, but Bru...there are so many GREAT characters outside of the Astonishing cast, man! ;)

I think he was talking more of the characters that he, as a young reader, was really a fan of, not disputing interesting ones exist beyond that (like Layla, for example, who he cites).

Canemacar

09-14-2007, 10:47 PM

Whenever I read an interview with Bru, he always comes off as a prick.

DaeJi

09-14-2007, 10:57 PM

I never get the since that he's a prick, only that he actually believes what he writes is good. Which is actually rare among writers. Anyway, this was my favorite bit:

So I was like, "… Huh! Well… that's actually kind of cool!" Because what he's saying is really true. Ah, I'll just tell you who he's saying it to - he's saying it to Tony Stark. He's basically telling him to shove the whole Registration Act up his ass, post-"Messiah Complex" after everything that happens. Basically he's just saying, "We aren't vigilantes. This is just who we were born as. You can't tell a guy who was born with wings that he can't fly unless he works for the government." So it's just like **** you. I was born with feet! I can walk! I don't need your permission

As much as I like Ironman, it's about @#$%ing time someone said this to him.

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-14-2007, 10:59 PM

Wait, did Bru just basically spoil Cyke's fate in *both* AXM and MC? :eek:

Vaal

09-14-2007, 11:29 PM

I'm glad someone at at the X-office remembered the metaphor and the importance of it, even if he just learned that. It seems that the last few years, people haven't gotten it. Or at the very least didn't understand it enough to apply it.

Vaal

09-14-2007, 11:31 PM

Novaya Havoc

09-14-2007, 11:59 PM

I'm jazzed for the post-crossover stuff now! Bru is sex on legs for this quote:

What's interesting though is that, writing the book, I just wrote a line of dialogue yesterday. I realized as I was writing it that - all I was writing about was, Cyclops is yelling at someone. I don't want to say who he's talking to [but he said], "We didn't sign up for this. We didn't take anything and become this way. We don't make a choice to be these people, to put on these costumes, to do these things. It's just who we are." I realized as I was reading it again… I live in a neighborhood where 50% of the people on my block are gay. And as I was reading it I was like, "… Huh!" Like I just made a gay analogy! I realized in my mind that's how I viewed it after I had written it. I had no plans to actually make it. I hate analogies. I hate metaphors. I hate all that ****. So I never try to write allegories or political metaphors or anything like that. But then I realized… it's not up to the writer, it's up to the reader. That's where allegories and metaphors come from - things that the readers see that the authors didn't necessarily even intend to be. It's just there. It's just a truth. It reflects back on the real world whether you want it to or not.

[...]

He's basically telling him to shove the whole Registration Act up his ass, post-"Messiah Complex" after everything that happens. Basically he's just saying, "We aren't vigilantes. This is just who we were born as. You can't tell a guy who was born with wings that he can't fly unless he works for the government." So it's just like **** you. I was born with feet! I can walk! I don't need your permission. So it was a really important thing to be said and then I realized how much it can be seen as that metaphor.

Hot stuff. Blogg'd.

dotdotdot

09-14-2007, 11:59 PM

Wait, did Bru just basically spoil Cyke's fate in *both* AXM and MC? :eek:

the thing that isnt really understood about axm, is that the scene in question does show us cyclops at his end and what he thinks as he's about to die......its a powerful scene, but i don't think at any point any of us are actually supposed to believe that he's going to die. it doesn't really take anything away from the scene at all to dismiss that part of it.

Jake V

09-15-2007, 12:03 AM

Wait, did Bru just basically spoil Cyke's fate in *both* AXM and MC? :eek:

You actually thought he was gonna die in AXM?

Come on. He's Cyclops. He'll never die.

Too important to kill, but not important enough that his death will mean a whole lot.

Slung

09-15-2007, 12:16 AM

Does anyone else think that Brubaker just doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about?

Trying to read it as someone who hadn't read any of the X-Men comics, it was impenetrable. I had no idea who most of these characters were. Stuff jumped around from issue to issue. I'm not trying to diss those guys - that was just the style of storytelling at the time.
I didn't think that X-Cutioner's song was THAT difficult to get. It wasn't Shakespeare or anything.

He also has a huge supporting cast of bad guys. He has the Brotherhood or whatever you'd call them - an army at his disposal.
Huh? The Brotherhood or whatever you'd call them?

So, Brubaker has no idea whats going on. Nick Lowe's favorite crossover is X-Cutioner's Song. Alonso loves Cable, Bishop and Forge. Claremont ran out of good ideas. Carey is being shuffled onto a maxiseries solo book. And Joe Quesada has boner for Emma Frost and thinks Jean is boring. It just isn't sounding good to me right now. Its late, so I'm hoping I'm just tired and things look up in the morning.

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 12:22 AM

Does anyone else think that Brubaker just doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about?

I didn't think that X-Cutioner's song was THAT difficult to get. It wasn't Shakespeare or anything.

bru sounds just extremely candid in interviews, and that comes across as apathy.
now, x-cutioner's song had stryfe, sinister, and apocalypse, each with allies or entire teams of evil mutant lackeys. it was definitely a bit much for anyone who wasn't keeping up with all the other early 90s nonsense.

Jake V

09-15-2007, 12:23 AM

I didn't think that X-Cutioner's song was THAT difficult to get. It wasn't Shakespeare or anything.
The shitty dialogue made it confusing for me. If Stryfe just came out and said that he thought that Cyclops was his father instead of merely alluding to it for no reason, it would have been a lot smoother. And "Cable" tried to kill Xavier why? Maybe because it's been years since I read it, but I still don't get what went on. Except Stryfe died at the end. Sorta. Anyway, when I was 11 I thought it was really cool.

So, Brubaker has no idea whats going on. Nick Lowe's favorite crossover is X-Cutioner's Song. Alonso loves Cable, Bishop and Forge. Claremont ran out of good ideas. Carey is being shuffled onto a maxiseries solo book. And Joe Quesada has boner for Emma Frost and thinks Jean is boring. It just isn't sounding good to me right now. Its late, so I'm hoping I'm just tired and things look up in the morning.

There is so much there that is either flat out wrong or simply misguided that I don't even know where to begin. Needless to say, you'll come around when the actual comics come out.

Slung

09-15-2007, 02:03 AM

The shitty dialogue made it confusing for me. If Stryfe just came out and said that he thought that Cyclops was his father instead of merely alluding to it for no reason, it would have been a lot smoother. And "Cable" tried to kill Xavier why? Maybe because it's been years since I read it, but I still don't get what went on. Except Stryfe died at the end. Sorta. Anyway, when I was 11 I thought it was really cool.
I never thought X-Cutioner's Song was good - I'm just saying it wasn't as confusing as Brubaker made it out to be.

There is so much there that is either flat out wrong or simply misguided that I don't even know where to begin. Needless to say, you'll come around when the actual comics come out.
Now, I'm not disagreeing that things will probably be exciting when the comics come out - but what exactly did I say that was "flat out wrong or simply misguided?" Now, I used a literary device known as "hyperbole" to make my statements larger than life and to the extreme - but I don't think I completely pulled random crap out of the air.

Brubaker sounded sort of clueless in his interview - he probably isn't, but comes across that way. He said Nick Lowe loved X-Cutioner's song - possibly the worst named and silliest crossover to date (still not ridiculously confusing though - less confusing then most of DC's huge crossovers). Alonso does like Cable, Bishop and Forge (which scares the bejeebus out of me - considering he also "helped along Spider-Man and was the driving force behind the Storm/Black Panther pairing). Claremont seems out of fresh ideas and a bit stagnant. All signs point to Carey being off X-Men and on to a solo maxiseries. And Quesada has said numerous times that he prefers Emma to Jean thus keeping Jean dead is a must (because that is logical sense).

So, nothing I said is entirely "misguided" or "flat out wrong." Quite contrary in fact.

If I keep my expectations low, I'll enjoy it more. :)

Tazirai

09-15-2007, 02:10 AM

Whenever I read an interview with Bru, he always comes off as a prick.

I was thinking the same thing ^^.. Good read nonetheless.

ExodusCloak

09-15-2007, 04:15 AM

You, know after reading this I'm kind of happy with Ed Brubaker again. I didn't mind his Deadly Genesis mini. I think it was written way better then his UXM so far. So it's possible that he just couldn't write the characters in his current roster...either way I'm looking forward to the Messiah Complex and the direction X-Men is moving in.

And agreed about the 90's Crossover thing...I never liked the dialogue either.

Don Quixote

09-15-2007, 04:33 AM

Very good interview. And nice to see he was so thrilled to write about Layla knowing stuff.

I don't get the impression that he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's just frank about the fact he didn't read X-Men for a long time, and wasn't keen on a lot of the stuff he saw in X-Men books. Fair enough, and there has been plenty of dross in the X-verse over the years.

If you look at X-Cutioners Song, there are a lot of characters thrown together. Heroes and villains. It could be extremely confusing to someone who is either new to comics, or hadn't read some of the titles involved for a long time. I think X-Cutioners Song was a little overcooked. But the absolute worst thing about it was the art in the X-Factor issues. Horrible.

I like Bru's honesty about the allegorical aspect of the Mutant gene. When he was reading the book, it leapt out at him that is was a metaphor for being black, jewish, whatever. But now he's writing it, he gets that the reader is the one who interprets that meaning.

I like the comparison he makes with the Avengers as well. Why are the Avengers loved, whilst the X-Men are feared? I'd go further and ask, why haven't the Fantastic Four and the Avengers ever stood up and said "The X-Men are heroes. Here's a list of what they've done for you...."

And that stuff with Cyclops is right on the money. If that's the approach Bru is taking with the X-Men, then I'm mightily encouraged. Why should they have to have the governments permission to use the abilities that they were born (latently) with? Tony, in particular, is someone who has made a conscious choice to be a superhero, and acquired the ability through his suits. None of the X-Men chose to be what they are, they just are.

Now if Bru could only get over his Gambit-hate, I'd really be onboard with his X-Men direction.

Porcelain

09-15-2007, 04:42 AM

Things seem to make more sense now. He comes across as not really having found his feet in the X-men universe - a purpose for their being/their own 'voice'/direction & doesn't really seems to have found characters he loves to draw on. He's right there is a huge leap between the logic of mutants evil and supertypes fabtabulous. To me though the difference has always been in "acceptability", a few normal people gaining powers and using them for the greater good is far easier to stomach than a whole seperate(ish) race more powerfull than ourselves where the possiblities are unlimited. However it is nice to see the balance redressed in public opinion terms with Civil War.

X-men should be accessible, but they do have a rich history to draw on for character depth & interaction without soap-light. It's a fine line to hover between the two: enough to understand the gist with a taste to leave you wanting to know more about them & enough depth for the regulars to bite into.

Cyclops stuff does need to be said, particularly as CW plays very close to many major plots from the X-men over the years but their viewpoint has been largely 'eh' on it thus far.

Willing to give him another shot if he sticks around for awhile afterwards.

Porcelain

09-15-2007, 04:47 AM

(Double post, shoot me but I missed this)
I'd go further and ask, why haven't the Fantastic Four and the Avengers ever stood up and said "The X-Men are heroes. Here's a list of what they've done for you...."

Now, that's what always bugged me. Yes they're busy, yes they can't be involved if the X-men decide to go awol, yes the X-men can't go running to them to have them explain every time one of them is possessed etc, but still leaves a bad taste when I think about it because the only rational explanation I can come up with is they don't want to get involved in that debate period.

caney

09-15-2007, 07:11 AM

I actually like most of what Brubaker talked about in that interview regarding the X-Men. It's got me much more excited for his upcoming stuff. Very cool!

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 07:34 AM

Whenever I read an interview with Bru, he always comes off as a prick.
Does he really come across as a prick, or is your perspective colored because he doesn't like Gambit?
I'm jazzed for the post-crossover stuff now! Bru is sex on legs for this quote:

Hot stuff. Blogg'd.
Yeah, I loved that bit. It has me excited about his post-epiphany work.

Affinity

09-15-2007, 07:47 AM

I'm jazzed for the post-crossover stuff now! Bru is sex on legs for this quote:

Hot stuff. Blogg'd.

<SNIP>

Yeah, I loved that bit. It has me excited about his post-epiphany work.

YEAH! Easily my favorite part of the interview. I wasn't a fan of Rise and Fall, and I'm starting to enjoy Uncanny's current arc, and it looks like post- or during MC, Brubaker is gonna make it to his real writing potential (like we see in Cap's book).

marco19

09-15-2007, 07:49 AM

i enjoyed this interview and think if brubaker can get some more A list x-men characters to write his stories would be much better . I bet as much kudos and high praise Whedon X-men get...personally i hate it..that if you put Mike CArey Brubaker and the other x-writers to a lie detector test they would be extremely pissed off and upset on how much astonshing screws up their plans and writing styles and stories Looking at it they should just make Astonshing either a MK KNights title and just not even bother making it in continuity to avoid all the nonsense

Brian M.

09-15-2007, 08:10 AM

Great interview...not just the X-Men stuff. Sounds like Bru is really starting to hit his stride. That dialogue with Cyclops and IM makes me excited. Can't wait to read this stuff. Also sounds like Brubaker is staying on Uncanny which is really good news.

Beast

09-15-2007, 08:46 AM

Brett P

09-15-2007, 09:03 AM

I'm excited for that super-spoiled Cyclops scene :D

Beast

09-15-2007, 09:07 AM

I'm excited for that super-spoiled Cyclops scene :D
I will give him props for that. Nice to see someone whack ole Shellhead with logic. ;)

Brian M.

09-15-2007, 09:08 AM

I will give him props for that. Nice to see someone whack ole Shellhead with logic. ;)

And for it to be Cyclops of all people, no Wolverine, not Storm, not Nightcrawler, not Xavier, they picked a real man.

Hi-Fi

09-15-2007, 09:10 AM

Everything sounds good. I think it took a little time for Bru to feel confortable writing a team book, but now he's delivering a solid book. Can't wait for the crossover.

Brett P

09-15-2007, 09:15 AM

I will give him props for that. Nice to see someone whack ole Shellhead with logic. ;)

Yeah, the "telling someone who was born with wings they can't fly unless they work for the government" is pure AWESOME-ness. I hope that means Angel survives MC!

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 10:17 AM

Beast

09-15-2007, 10:23 AM

Non sequitur much?
Nope. It's a perfectly valid point.
Where is he making tired excuses? He's flat out stated before that an exchange between Cyclops and Xavier didn't factor because he was moving on. That's hardly an excuse.
He's making tired excuses in pretty much every interview he makes.

If it wasn't a factor, why even set the confrontation up in Issue #1. Lazy writing.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 10:30 AM

Nope. It's a perfectly valid point.
No, it's a non sequitur. It doesn't make any sense. It's not even a complete sentence.

He's making tired excuses in pretty much every interview he makes.

If it wasn't a factor, why even set the confrontation up in Issue #1. Lazy writing.

Please, point out the excuses, Beast, since you know so much. Also, no, it isn't lazy writing. I'll agree it's selective writing, but I'm OK with that. Cyclops isn't even part of his cast, and a confrontation with Xavier would do little to progress the current story.

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 10:35 AM

Does he really come across as a prick, or is your perspective colored because he doesn't like Gambit?

He's a prick.

kate-pryde

09-15-2007, 10:36 AM

Brubaker strikes me as not giving a darn about the characters. That's why the argument between Scott and Xavier was ignored. He doesn't get why fans want to see that because he doesn't give a darn about them. We care far more than he ever will about Scott loosing his father. Fans see the characters as people, Brubaker sees them as annoying characters he needs to retcon.

Brian M.

09-15-2007, 10:36 AM

He's a prick.

You've met him? How is he a prick? Since when does confidence = prick?

Brian M.

09-15-2007, 10:37 AM

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 10:38 AM

He's a prick.
Why? Let's see some references.

Brubaker strikes me as not giving a darn about the characters. That's why the argument between Scott and Xavier was ignored. He doesn't get why fans want to see that because he doesn't give a darn about them. We care far more than he ever will about Scott loosing his father. Fans see the characters as people, Brubaker sees them as annoying characters he needs to retcon.
Actually, some of us don't care about Scott losing his ridiculous space pirate father. It was a bad idea that never should've been introduced in the first place.

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 10:38 AM

doublepost

Novaya Havoc

09-15-2007, 10:39 AM

Brian M.

09-15-2007, 10:40 AM

Why? Let's see some references.

Actually, some of us don't care about Scott losing his ridiculous space pirate father. It was bad idea that never should've been introduced in the first place.

It makes Corsair come off as a prick. He'd rather have space adventures than tend to his family.

Novaya Havoc

09-15-2007, 10:41 AM

And that stuff with Cyclops is right on the money. If that's the approach Bru is taking with the X-Men, then I'm mightily encouraged. Why should they have to have the governments permission to use the abilities that they were born (latently) with? Tony, in particular, is someone who has made a conscious choice to be a superhero, and acquired the ability through his suits. None of the X-Men chose to be what they are, they just are.

Bam. Right there. Thank you.

This whole angle from Bru is the first thing to make me actually excited about the X-Line since The Decimation/198. I really hope it comes through on the printed page.

Hi-Fi

09-15-2007, 10:41 AM

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 10:41 AM

You've met him? How is he a prick? Since when does confidence = prick?

Insulting the work of the people who came before you on a project is a prickish thing to do. I don't care if you don't think it was quality stuff, you still show them a measure of professional courtesy. The guy's high on himself.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 10:43 AM

Insulting the work of the people who came before you on a project is a prickish thing to do. I don't care if you don't think it was quality stuff, you still show them a measure of professional courtesy. The guy's high on himself.
I think you're just pissed because he dissed Gambit in Wizard.

Brian M.

09-15-2007, 10:44 AM

Insulting the work of the people who came before you on a project is a prickish thing to do. I don't care if you don't think it was quality stuff, you still show them a measure of professional courtesy. The guy's high on himself.

But it's ok for everyone else to insult work? I mean we have writers post on here and fans are more dickish to them than anything Brubaker has said.

Beast

09-15-2007, 10:45 AM

It makes Corsair come off as a prick. He'd rather have space adventures than tend to his family.
He thought they were dead, remember. And by the time he knew they were alive, they were adults. :p

Beast

09-15-2007, 10:47 AM

And if you think about it, why would Cyclops blame Xavier for Corsair's death? Corsair is a space pirate, he died doing his business. It was sad, sure. Scott probably cried off-panel.

Now the fact that Alex and Rachel stayed behind, even after Cyclops asked Xavier to bring them back safely, now that should be adressed. I have a feeling it will be, soon. :)
That's the whole point. It should have been addressed when it was relevent. Which it was, right after RAFOTSE. Yet just shrugging and saying it happened off panel is lazy. Especially when it was set up in Issue #1.

Brian M.

09-15-2007, 10:47 AM

He thought they were dead, remember. And by the time he knew they were alive, they were adults. :p

So he doesn't even both trying to be a father to them? Doesn't even bother trying to get to know his kids?

"Oh...your not dead."

"Yea"

"Well that's cool, maybe I'll see ya at Christmas? Gotta run, another space adventure w/ a big green mess called 'Cho'd'."

"You know Cho'd, in english, is that little peice of skin between your balls and asshole right?"

"...bout right, see ya."

Beast

09-15-2007, 10:48 AM

Not being a complete slave to continuity -- but getting the overall gist of a character's continuity -- isn't the equivalent of "not giving a damn."
You forgot to addendum that with "Unless Claremont is doing it". ;)

Novaya Havoc

09-15-2007, 10:49 AM

He thought they were dead, remember. And by the time he knew they were alive, they were adults. :p

UGH! I HATE THIS KIND OF CONTINUITY!

It doesn't matter! He was a space pirate. A SPACE. PIRATE.

Is there anything right about those two words being put together? God, if I were Brubaker, I'd kill off Corsair and never mention it ever again! And I would retcon Psylocke as being always Asian. And I would retcon everything that ever happened to Dazzler post 1988.

Sometimes things need to be brushed under the rug for the sake of telling a good story. Unless we still want to bring up Candy Southern every time Angel's on a panel just because she was around 3429785489345 years ago.

I DON'T WANT EXCUSES GOD CORSAIR IS DEAD AND THANKFULLY SO JUST LET THE MAN TELL A STORY.

Sheeeeez.

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 10:49 AM

I think you're just pissed because he dissed Gambit in Wizard.

And I think you're using ad homenims in place of an actual argument because you don't like the fact I called him a prick.

But it's ok for everyone else to insult work? I mean we have writers post on here and fans are more dickish to them than anything Brubaker has said.

Trash-talking with your friends and trash-talking in corporate interviews are two very different things.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 10:49 AM

But it's ok for everyone else to insult work? I mean we have writers post on here and fans are more dickish to them than anything Brubaker has said.
Aside from that, most of the crap from that period was exactly that. It was nearly incomprehensible and certainly not above scrutiny.

Beast

09-15-2007, 10:49 AM

So he doesn't even both trying to be a father to them? Doesn't even bother trying to get to know his kids?

"Oh...your not dead."

"Yea"

"Well that's cool, maybe I'll see ya at Christmas? Gotta run, another space adventure w/ a big green mess called 'Cho'd'."

"You know Cho'd, in english, is that little peice of skin between your balls and asshole right?"

"...bout right, see ya."
Shows you were Scott got his wonderful "Wife Abandoning Skills" from.

Beast

09-15-2007, 10:50 AM

UGH! I HATE THIS KIND OF CONTINUITY!

It doesn't matter! He was a space pirate. A SPACE. PIRATE.

Is there anything right about those two words being put together? God, if I were Brubaker, I'd kill off Corsair and never mention it ever again! And I would retcon Psylocke as being always Asian. And I would retcon everything that ever happened to Dazzler post 1988.

Sometimes things need to be brushed under the rug for the sake of telling a good story. Unless we still want to bring up Candy Southern every time Angel's on a panel just because she was around 3429785489345 years ago.

I DON'T WANT EXCUSES GOD CORSAIR IS DEAD AND THANKFULLY SO JUST LET THE MAN TELL A STORY.

Sheeeeez.
Corsair is dead? ;) :D

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 10:50 AM

And I think you're using ad homenims in place of an actual argument because you don't like the fact I called him a prick.
What am I supposed to argue? You're trolling. It's hard to top that.

Trash-talking with your friends and trash-talking in corporate interviews are two very different things.

He didn't trash-talk. He leveled a criticism at a story.

Novaya Havoc

09-15-2007, 10:52 AM

You forgot to addendum that with "Unless Claremont is doing it". ;)

No. Claremont just references his own continuity unless there's no way around it.

Dazzler being fabulous isn't continuity, Beast. It's a character design and angle which, IMO, suits her better.

I'm not screaming that CC fails to mention Dazzler's sister, or baby, or romance with Longshot, or what-have-you. But all his fans sure do want 2/3 things explained, smooth storytelling be damned.

I wasn't gonna bring CC up, since you did: I think the last thing you want to do when you're a CC fan is complain about a mainstream book's writer not referencing continuity enough.

Claremont self-references to high heaven, and both his books are practically out of the top 100. Obsessive continuity is lame.

Nyssane

09-15-2007, 10:55 AM

I actually (FOR ONCE) agree with Beast and Canemacar a smidge. When compared to writers like Carey or Nicieza, he's not exactly the friendliest in interviews. He seems to have an arrogance about him that grates my last nerve. Yeah, the X-Cutioner's Song sucked, but dissing it in an interview is pretty unprofessional and slightly insulting to the writers of the 90's. He did say that it was good for the time, which I agree, but I don't think comics should change THAT much from what they were. Apparently Bru thinks otherwise.

Or maybe I just hate him because he doesn't like Diamondback because she has a pink costume.

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 10:57 AM

What am I supposed to argue? You're trolling. It's hard to top that.

You seem to think any opinion you don't agree with = trolling.

I threw my 2 cents in, you took issue with it and made jibes at me, so here we are. You're more the troll than I am.

He didn't trash-talk. He leveled a criticism at a story.

He wasn't criticizing it, he was calling it crap. Believe it or not, it is possible to criticize a story without bashing it.

Novaya Havoc

09-15-2007, 10:57 AM

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 10:59 AM

You seem to think any opinion you don't agree with = trolling.

I threw my 2 cents in, you took issue with it and made jibes at me, so here we are. You're more the troll than I am.
Personal insults levelled at posters and creators are against the rules.

"He is a prick" isn't a valid post. It's flaming, trolling, whatever you wanna call it.

He wasn't criticizing it, he was calling it crap. Believe it or not, it is possible to criticize a story without bashing it.

Believe it or not, negative criticism can still be valid criticism.

Beast

09-15-2007, 11:02 AM

Believe it or not, negative criticism can still be valid criticism.
Yet, you seem to be arguing against anyone who refuses to heap praise upon Brubaker's Uncanny X-Men.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 11:04 AM

Yet, you seem to be against anyone who refuses to heap praise Brubaker's Uncanny X-Men.
No, I'm just against silly and rude assumptions about his character. I have my own issues with his work on Uncanny X-Men, thank you very much.

Nyssane

09-15-2007, 11:06 AM

I don't think he's arrogant -- just frank. I want the X-Men to go somewhere and not just tread water for once.

This is probably why I liked Morrison, Darkstar be damned.

I want the X-Men to go somewhere, also, but not to stray so far from the original idea (ie. Morrison's run). I just think, in interviews, you could at least try to be "less" frank because it just comes across as obnoxious (to me, anyways).

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-15-2007, 11:06 AM

You actually thought he was gonna die in AXM?

Come on. He's Cyclops. He'll never die.

Too important to kill, but not important enough that his death will mean a whole lot.

Of course I didn't think he'd die. Check the AXM 22 thread. Been saying it since forever.

It's just that I didn't expect a writer to just spoil it like that just for the hell of saying he finally *got* the minority metaphor.

Beast

09-15-2007, 11:06 AM

No, I'm just against silly and rude assumptions about his character. I have my own issues with his work on Uncanny X-Men, thank you very much.
There's no need at all to make assumptions. Much of it is clearly spelled out in his yawn-provoking interviews.

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 11:07 AM

Personal insults levelled at posters and creators are against the rules.

"He is a prick" isn't a valid post. It's flaming, trolling, whatever you wanna call it.

Then why did you take issue with me saying he comes across as one in interviews? No personal insult in that, just an observation about the interview.

Admit it, you just don't like different opinions.

Believe it or not, negative criticism can still be valid criticism.

Negative criticism is an exercise in futility. No one is going to accept criticism that insults them and anyone who gives insulting criticism isn't looking to give advice, just insults.

Novaya Havoc

09-15-2007, 11:07 AM

No, I'm just against silly and rude assumptions about his character. I have my own issues with his work on Uncanny X-Men, thank you very much.

Me too. Raftoise was teh lame. No me gusta.

But I see nothing "dickish" about that interview at all. X-Cutioners Song was lame and confusing. Back then I'd rather buy "X-Men Adventures" which was the cartoon in comic form over the main titles because they were such wonk.

And I LOL'd at his hate toward the spelling of "X-Cutioner."

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 11:07 AM

There's no need at all to make assumptions. Much of it is clearly spelled out in his yawn-provoking interviews.
Then why do you continue to make them?

kate-pryde

09-15-2007, 11:07 AM

Actually, some of us don't care about Scott losing his ridiculous space pirate father. It was a bad idea that never should've been introduced in the first place.

If Brubaker decides to kill off a character, then he needs to deal with the full repercussions of it. Otherwise killing Corsair seems like a cheap, shock value deal - a la Banshee.

Writers are dealing with a shared universe, not their own story. They should follow continuity (whether they like it or not) or get the hell away from X-books.

Beast

09-15-2007, 11:08 AM

I want the X-Men to go somewhere, also, but not to stray so far from the original idea (ie. Morrison's run). I just think, in interviews, you could at least try to be "less" frank because it just comes across as obnoxious (to me, anyways).
I think it's very telling how much Brubaker beats the drums of hating the social commentary that's been prelevant as part of the X-Franchise for years. And then pats himself on the back for making social commentary. Gee, maybe he should think there's something to all of this. At least he finally grasped the point. :p

Beast

09-15-2007, 11:08 AM

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 11:10 AM

Then why did you take issue with me saying he comes across as one in interviews? No personal insult in that, just an observation about the interview.
You called him a prick. That's a personal insult or trash-talking, if you prefer. You could've quoted a particular statement and said it seemed a bit rude or unnecessary. Instead, you defamed his character.

Admit it, you just don't like different opinions.
Actually, I just don't like you.

Negative criticism is an exercise in futility. No one is going to accept criticism that insults them and anyone who gives insulting criticism isn't looking to give advice, just insults.

Negative criticism is integral to the development of art. That's how we (artists) grow.

Novaya Havoc

09-15-2007, 11:10 AM

Ugh, SO dramatic!

Nyssane

09-15-2007, 11:13 AM

But I see nothing "dickish" about that interview at all. X-Cutioners Song was lame and confusing. Back then I'd rather buy "X-Men Adventures" which was the cartoon in comic form over the main titles because they were such wonk.

Different interpretations, I guess. The correction of "X-Cutioner's Song" seemed kind of having a go at Nick Lowe, and jokingly or not (as the fans wouldn't know the difference), that particular bit did come off as arrogant.

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-15-2007, 11:13 AM

Not touching that feud with a ten f...

You know what, screw it. You two might dislike each other, but neither Deus or Can are trolls.

And IMO, Bru deserved something like that after basically saying that the minority metaphor which SPAWNED the f****n x-verse sucked.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 11:14 AM

If Brubaker decides to kill off a character, then he needs to deal with the full repercussions of it. Otherwise killing Corsair seems like a cheap, shock value deal - a la Banshee.
The full repercussions of any give action would be impossible for Bru to cover in one comic book or one story arc. These things can and do take longer than that. You were just looking for specific repercussions and were disappointed that you didn't get them. That part is totally fair and valid. It's the "Brubaker hates fans" and "he doesn't know what he's doing" and "that's lazy writing" and all the rest of that BS that is less valid.

Writers are dealing with a shared universe, not their own story. They should follow continuity (whether they like it or not) or get the hell away from X-books.
You hit the nail on the head here. It's shared continuity. No writer covers every ramification of their work. They leave much to others to pick up. Emperor Vulcan is a good example of that.

Beast

09-15-2007, 11:15 AM

Pach!

09-15-2007, 11:15 AM

This is quite funny.

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 11:16 AM

You called him a prick. That's a personal insult or trash-talking, if you prefer. You could've quoted a particular statement and said it seemed a bit rude or unnecessary. Instead, you defamed his character.

My second post was, but my first was just my impression about his public persona. Since I don't seem to be the only one to get that impression, it's an issue.

Actually, I just don't like you.

Aww. Now you've hurt my feelings.:(

I think I'm going to cry....

Negative criticism is integral to the development of art. That's how we (artists) grow.

Criticism can be easily given without malice. If you feel it's *necessary* to be mean when you're giving advice, I can see why you'd think him trash-talking others was perfectly acceptable.

Just a difference in our paradigms I suppose.

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-15-2007, 11:17 AM

And then realizing why it's relevant, when he made his own social commentary. :p

No, see, the first part is reason enough to get pissed.

His 'epiphany' is more of a 'WTF-is-this-guy-for-real??!!' jaw-dropping moment. :eek:

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 11:18 AM

And IMO, Bru deserved something like that after basically saying that the minority metaphor which SPAWNED the f****n x-verse sucked.

And then realizing why it's relevant, when he made his own social commentary. :p
That's the imporant part. He figured it out, which has me excited. Believe it or not, I've felt Bru's work on Uncanny X-Men, while decent, has been lacking verve. Hopefully, his epiphany will change all of that.

Beast

09-15-2007, 11:18 AM

The full repercussions of any give action would be impossible for Bru to cover in one comic book or one story arc. These things can and do take longer than that. You were just looking for specific repercussions and were disappointed that you didn't get them. That part is totally fair and valid. It's the "Brubaker hates fans" and "he doesn't know what he's doing" and "that's lazy writing" and all the rest of that BS that is less valid.
It wasn't that we didn't get specific reprecussions. We didn't get any repricussions. And now Brubaker's got Hephzibah trying to crawl into Warpath's pants like nothing happened. Lazy writing. Ignoring your own continuity that just happened is even more staggaring than ignoring decades of continuity.
You hit the nail on the head here. It's shared continuity. No writer covers every ramification of their work. They leave much to others to pick up. Emperor Vulcan is a good example of that.
Emperor Vulcan is only necessary, because Brubaker was tossing characters into limbo. Pretty much because he didn't like them. Yet keeps characters that he basically ignored during RAFOTSE anyway. Such as the so-called leader, Nightcrawler. And in one issue, Chris Yost delivered a better Shi'ar Story than Brubaker did in 12.

Novaya Havoc

09-15-2007, 11:19 AM

Whenever I read an interview with Bru, he always comes off as a prick.

Criticism can be easily given without malice.

Just a difference in our paradigms I suppose.

Is that some sort of DID coming through?

Beast

09-15-2007, 11:21 AM

That's the imporant part. He figured it out, which has me excited. Believe it or not, I've felt Bru's work on Uncanny X-Men, while decent, has been lacking verve. Hopefully, his epiphany will change all of that.
Here's hoping. There were moments during the current arc that gave me hope.

Omega Alpha

09-15-2007, 11:22 AM

Good interview. But I do agree that Brubaker comes off like he's out of his element. Not a prick, but just... somewhat clueless about what he's writing. We already know he didn't follow X-Men much before landing the job. Especially using the excuse that he didn't have any of his favorite characters to write.

I don't think that's a legitimate excuse for the fact that he ignores Nightcrawler, and short changes most of the rest of his cast. Focusing instead on Vulcan and Korvus. And yet another instance of him trying to make tired excuses for not having scenes like Scott/Xavier at the end of RAFOTSE.

He doesn't want to spoil AXM, yet all it would take is talking to his editors to know that AXM's timeline is fluid. And doesn't seem to have much of a problem with having Beast appear in his run, even though he's in AXM. And just having a talk with Scott and Xavier isn't going to spoil anything. Oh well. :p

Yeah, he just doesn't show the love. Look at how he talks about Cap. America, Winter Soldier and everyone and how he talks about the X-men.

But that scene with Tony should be great.

Actually, some of us don't care about Scott losing his ridiculous space pirate father. It was a bad idea that never should've been introduced in the first place.

I agree that he shouldn't exist, but still the death of your father isn't something minor that can be ignored, specially in the context it happened.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 11:22 AM

My second post was, but my first was just my impression about his public persona. Since I don't seem to be the only one to get that impression, it's an issue.

Criticism can be easily given without malice. If you feel it's *necessary* to be mean when you're giving advice, I can see why you'd think him trash-talking others was perfectly acceptable.

Just a difference in our paradigms I suppose.

What was so mean? He didn't call out any specific creators. He even defended them against his own criticism. You talk about him being mean and yet you still think it's OK to call him a prick. I smell hypocrisy.

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 11:23 AM

Is that some sort of DID coming through?

What? I don't like Bru and I don't care about giving criticism. No big mystery.

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 11:27 AM

What was so mean? He didn't call out any specific creators. He even defended them against his own criticism.

He was also massively condescending the entire time.

You talk about him being mean and yet you still think it's OK to call him a prick.I smell hypocrisy.

No thats you. Like I said before there's nothing wrong with calling people pricks in normal conversation, thats what people do. It's bashing them in mass media thats really uncalled for.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 11:31 AM

He was also massively condescending the entire time.
I didn't get that, but then you've already expressed your distaste for Brubaker. It doesn't surprise me that you'd try to impose that sort of interpretation.

No thats you. Like I said before there's nothing wrong with calling people pricks in normal conversation, thats what people do. It's bashing them in mass media thats really uncalled for.
He didn't bash anyone. You did. Get with it, dude. You're a litte behind.

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 11:36 AM

I didn't get that, but then you've already expressed your distaste for Brubaker. It doesn't surprise me that you'd try to impose that sort of interpretation.

I'm not the only one who's said something about it, ergo it's not just me "imposing my interpretation". If you're going to just ignore anyone who doesn't agree with you, thats your prerogative, but don't expect others to go along with it.

He didn't bash anyone. You did. Get with it, dude. You're a litte behind.

Uh...Yes he did. Showing contempt for others generally counts as dissing them.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 11:40 AM

I'm not the only one who's said something about it, ergo it's not just me "imposing my interpretation". If you're going to just ignore anyone who doesn't agree with you, thats your prerogative, but don't expect others to go along with it.
I haven't ignored you at all.

Uh...Yes he did. Showing contempt for others generally counts as dissing them.
He didn't show contempt for anyone. You did.

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 11:46 AM

I haven't ignored you at all.

I wish you would.

Not what I'm talking about though. There were other posters here who had the same view of Bru's interview as me or noticed his attitude. It's not just me twisting his words because I have a grudge.

He didn't show contempt for anyone. You did.

You've apparently lost your ability to recognize disrespect. And since you've regressed to the point where you simply refuse point blank to listen to anything anyone else has to say, I'm done talking to you. Theres only a certain degree of pointlessness I'm willing to waste my time on.

Omega Alpha

09-15-2007, 11:51 AM

How about the old "talk about comics, not each other"?;)

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 11:52 AM

simply moronic. also, beast regressed to some tired opinions that we already completely debunked in another thread re: brubaker.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 11:53 AM

I wish you would.
If I'm such a bother, put me on your Ignore List.

Not what I'm talking about though. There were other posters here who had the same view of Bru's interview as me or noticed his attitude. It's not just me twisting his words because I have a grudge.
No other poster took it as far as you, which, in my mind, suggests that you might in fact have a grudge. Considering your own history on the board and Bru's feelings on Gambit, I wouldn't put it passed you. That's why I asked if that was the case right off the bat.

You've apparently lost your ability to recognize disrespect. And since you've regressed to the point where you simply refuse to listen to anything anyone else has to say, I'm done talking to you.

Oh, I listened. I also explained that criticizing a story isn't the same as trash-talking people. If anyone is refusing to listen, it's you.

Daithi

09-15-2007, 11:54 AM

I don't think he's arrogant -- just frank. I want the X-Men to go somewhere and not just tread water for once.

Me too. He's quite honest in his views and I don't see what he said in that interview that people haven't said already.

Then I read Uncanny and then there's mentions of Storm being claustrophobic and then she's buried under a tonne of rubble and I'm like "sweet zombie jesus how many times have we seen that?!". Talk about treading water.

My view is that what he wants to do with the X-Men from his interviews doesn't come across in his writing. However it appears that Messiah Complex allows him to do what he wants. If his Messiah Complex and his following stuff match to what he says in the interviews I'd be on board in a heartbeat.

Not being a complete slave to continuity -- but getting the overall gist of a character's continuity -- isn't the equivalent of "not giving a damn."

Yes. However he has a tendency to just retcon stuff which is just as bad. Whether it is Qwerty or Xavier meeting Emma the stripper or ancient Shi'ar laws or whatever. Still he has the characters down pat mostly and his Storm is probably the best I've read in a long time.

Beast

09-15-2007, 11:58 AM

Yes. However he has a tendency to just retcon stuff which is just as bad. Whether it is Qwerty or Xavier meeting Emma the stripper or ancient Shi'ar laws or whatever.
Don't forget the X-Men 1.5, Vulcan, and Xavier pretending to be Krakoa. :p

Daithi

09-15-2007, 12:01 PM

Don't forget the X-Men 1.5, Vulcan, and Xavier pretending to be Krakoa. :p

Well from everything he's said most of Deadly Genesis was editorial driven. I'm willing to cut him a break with that mini. I mean the whole point of that mini was that there was some deep terrible secret so there was bound to be retcons.

Beast

09-15-2007, 12:03 PM

Well from everything he's said most of Deadly Genesis was editorial driven. I'm willing to cut him a break with that mini. I mean the whole point of that mini was that there was some deep terrible secret of there was bound to be retcons.
Maybe the concept was editorial driven, but the execution was still lacking.

Slung

09-15-2007, 12:04 PM

If Brubaker decides to kill off a character, then he needs to deal with the full repercussions of it. Otherwise killing Corsair seems like a cheap, shock value deal - a la Banshee.

Writers are dealing with a shared universe, not their own story. They should follow continuity (whether they like it or not) or get the hell away from X-books.

Exactly. If you are going to kill off someone's father (and especially if that character has guest-starred in your book before), you need to show a reaction to the death. We don't even know that Scott has learned his father is dead. Thats lazy writing. Two panels would have sufficed. It isn't exactly "moving on to tell a story" or "well, he isn't in his cast." Killing off characters has reprucussions. If a writer doesn't want to deal with those reprucussions, he shouldn't have killed off the character.

Corsair was not just some lame character. Many of us have enjoyed him over the years. "Space pirate" sounds lame on paper, but was fun in the books. "Rollerskating Mutant Disco Diva" sounds horrible on paper too. I think that Dazzler is currently a lame character but if she died, I'd hope somebody reacted to her death. I was very disappointed that Emma never reacted to Banshee's death. I think its poor writing to not show the effect a death has on the characters closest to the deceased.

Pach!

09-15-2007, 12:09 PM

Exactly. If you are going to kill off someone's father (and especially if that character has guest-starred in your book before), you need to show a reaction to the death. We don't even know that Scott has learned his father is dead. Thats lazy writing. Two panels would have sufficed. It isn't exactly "moving on to tell a story" or "well, he isn't in his cast." Killing off characters has reprucussions. If a writer doesn't want to deal with those reprucussions, he shouldn't have killed off the character.

Corsair was not just some lame character. Many of us have enjoyed him over the years. "Space pirate" sounds lame on paper, but was fun in the books. "Rollerskating Mutant Disco Diva" sounds horrible on paper too. I think that Dazzler is currently a lame character but if she died, I'd hope somebody reacted to her death. I was very disappointed that Emma never reacted to Banshee's death. I think its poor writing to not show the effect a death has on the characters closest to the deceased.

She's died like 4 times actually. I don't think they ever acknowledge that she has family and friends that would be worried.

Beast

09-15-2007, 12:11 PM

She's died like 4 times actually. I don't think they ever acknowledge that she has family and friends that would be worried.
Because she came back to life each time. Maybe if she really died, that would be addressed.

Banshee and Corsair both had actual deaths and were buried. So that's a flawed argument.

Canemacar

09-15-2007, 12:16 PM

Damn my ornery nature! I can never walk away from an argument.

If I'm such a bother, put me on your Ignore List.

I think I'll do that. Promise me you'll do the same for me.

No other poster took it as far as you, which, in my mind, suggests that you might in fact have a grudge.

Or perhaps it's because you've been haranguing my opinion for the last couple pages of this thread? Initially I just said my peace and was done.

Considering your own history on the board and Bru's feelings on Gambit, I wouldn't put it passed you.That's why I asked if that was the case right off the bat.

I don't care what Bru thinks about Gambit. He didn't even understand the single most basic tenant of the X-men until recently. His opinion on anything X-related is worthless in my opinion.

Oh, I listened. I also explained that criticizing a story isn't the same as trash-talking people. If anyone is refusing to listen, it's you.

He wasn't criticizing. Criticism is a constructive thing. It helps people improve their efforts. Bru was just pointing out how he thought those comics sucked. Have you ever seen Mike Carey give criticism to a story? He's polite and honest about it. Bru is just crass.

Slung

09-15-2007, 12:20 PM

She's died like 4 times actually. I don't think they ever acknowledge that she has family and friends that would be worried.

I'm not saying that Brubaker should go back and look at some solo series Corsair had 25 years ago and make sure he shows every character who ever loved Corsair's reaction. I'm just asking him to show Corsair's son - who is a main fixture of the current x-uninverse - (and maybe some of the other X-Men who were Corsair's friends) react to his death. And while he is at it, he could have Corsair's "lifemate" Hepzibah act like she lost her lover. Just a little.

Beast

09-15-2007, 12:27 PM

I'm not saying that Brubaker should go back and look at some solo series Corsair had 25 years ago and make sure he shows every character who ever loved Corsair's reaction. I'm just asking him to show Corsair's son - who is a main fixture of the current x-uninverse - (and maybe some of the other X-Men who were Corsair's friends) react to his death. And while he is at it, he could have Corsair's "lifemate" Hepzibah act like she lost her lover. Just a little.
Not to mention, show Scott's reaction to Havok and Marvel Girl being left in space.

The same people Brubaker showed Scott warn Xavier in Issue #1, had better come back.

Pach!

09-15-2007, 12:29 PM

Because she came back to life each time. Maybe if she really died, that would be addressed.

Banshee and Corsair both had actual deaths and were buried. So that's a flawed argument.

I know that, Beast. If she wouldn't come back to life she wouldn't have died four times, would she?

How is it flawed though, when people have a close to death experience they call their family. Now I don't know much about Dazzler but I'm sure her fans could tell you that she did have people that would have a reaction to that event.

I'm not saying that Brubaker should go back and look at some solo series Corsair had 25 years ago and make sure he shows every character who ever loved Corsair's reaction. I'm just asking him to show Corsair's son - who is a main fixture of the current x-uninverse - (and maybe some of the other X-Men who were Corsair's friends) react to his death. And while he is at it, he could have Corsair's "lifemate" Hepzibah act like she lost her lover. Just a little.

Now I get that she is not behaving like a human being would if she lost her life mate but Hepzibah isn't a human being. Maybe to her alien race mourning is very disrepectful to the dead.

Faded

09-15-2007, 12:29 PM

LOL, guuuuys. RAFOSARASOTA was like...so six months ago!

But hell, I have nothing else to do right now(!!!).

I think he was talking more of the characters that he, as a young reader, was really a fan of, not disputing interesting ones exist beyond that (like Layla, for example, who he cites).

I just kinda got the impression that the rich, large universe of the X-Men is a little overwhelming for him as someone who isn't a big X-Men fan.

So I was just sayin' (rather playfully) that there's some cool stuff beyond CC, the 80's, and the old school group of X-Men.

If Brubaker decides to kill off a character, then he needs to deal with the full repercussions of it. Otherwise killing Corsair seems like a cheap, shock value deal - a la Banshee.

I could give two red nubby Cyclopses about Corsair, but I actually agree. I don't particularly like that storytelling method as it comes off as...

|X| Killed off lame character.

Moving on...

I think it's very telling how much Brubaker beats the drums of hating the social commentary that's been prelevant as part of the X-Franchise for years. And then pats himself on the back for making social commentary. Gee, maybe he should think there's something to all of this. At least he finally grasped the point. :p

As Chris said, that's what's great about it! It was almost beautiful, even!

This is quite funny.

LOL but it is.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 12:30 PM

I think I'll do that. Promise me you'll do the same for me.
I can't promise that, and I also can't promise that I won't call you out on the BS. It's a shame that you'll be missing it.

Or perhaps it's because you've been haranguing my opinion for the last couple pages of this thread? Initially I just said my peace and was done.
Oh, you definitely weren't done. Even now--after declaring that you're finished talking to me--you're still going. Not surprisingly, you still haven't given any specific examples of Brubaker being a prick.

I don't care what Bru thinks about Gambit. He didn't even understand the single most basic tenant of the X-men until recently. His opinion on anything X-related is worthless in my opinion.

LOL
OK...if you say so.

He wasn't criticizing. Criticism is a constructive thing. It helps people improve their efforts. Bru was just pointing out how he thought those comics sucked. Have you ever seen Mike Carey give criticism to a story? He's polite and honest about it. Bru is just crass.

Here's what Bru said:

Trying to read it as someone who hadn't read any of the X-Men comics, it was impenetrable. I had no idea who most of these characters were. Stuff jumped around from issue to issue. I'm not trying to diss those guys - that was just the style of storytelling at the time.

I see some constructive criticism in there and nothing even remotely rude. Again, where was he a prick?

Daithi

09-15-2007, 12:39 PM

Now I get that she is not behaving like a human being would if she lost her life mate but Hepzibah isn't a human being. Maybe to her alien race mourning is very disrepectful to the dead.

Well the last time that Hepzibah mourned was when the Shi'ar enslaved and killed a lot of her race. I suppose make love not war is her view now.

However if it is an alien thing it shouldn't be just assumed. I'm not asking for a dialog like "As a member of X, we don't grieve like you do, we find it more honorable to shack up with a guy in the sewers"

But a reaction from Warpath to show that it's alien to him would have been nice.

Pach!

09-15-2007, 12:42 PM

Well the last time that Hepzibah mourned was when the Shi'ar enslaved and killed a lot of her race. I suppose make love not war is her view now.

However if it is an alien thing it shouldn't be assumed. I'm not asking for a dialog box "As a member of X, we don't grieve like you do, we find it more honorable to shack up with a guy in the sewers"

But a reaction from Warpath to show that it's alien to him would have been nice.

Didn't we have that in UXM 487 where James talks about what Hepz should be feeling and then Hepz says that "Dead is dead, and she'll keep her grief her own way?"

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 12:46 PM

Didn't we have that in UXM 487 where James talks about what Hepz should be feeling and then Hepz says that "Dead is dead, and she'll keep her grief her own way?"
Yep, I remember that. Also, after she explained about the burrowing and her instincts and stuff, James began to rebuff her advances. However, they were immediately ambushed, so the situation was cut short. I think things are definitely being addressed, just not in the way some people would like.

Daithi

09-15-2007, 12:49 PM

Yep, I remember that. Also, after she explained about the burrowing and her instincts and stuff, James also rebuffed her advances right before they were ambushed. I think things are definitely being addressed, just not in the way some people would like.

Yeah I get that too. I suspect James would have pointed out how alien it is but for Hepzibah it's normal. Although can't she produce mind altering pheromes or something? If it was instinct she'd be producing them like crazy.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 12:52 PM

Yeah I get that too. I suspect James would have pointed out how alien it is but for Hepzibah it's normal.
I definitely hope we see more of how she handles things and how her ways may differ from his--and others. Otherwise, what's the point?

Edit: I never knew about those hormones, lol.

Daithi

09-15-2007, 12:55 PM

Edit: I never knew about those hormones, lol.

That's because you like Brubaker hate continuity!

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 12:57 PM

That's because you like Brubaker hate continuity!
LOL
I'm Wiki-ing her right now!

Red Lotus

09-15-2007, 02:11 PM

I'll agree it's selective writing, but I'm OK with that. Cyclops isn't even part of his cast, and a confrontation with Xavier would do little to progress the current story.

When you make a point of starting off your arc by making Cyclops tell Xavier to bring his family back safe or else, that should have been touched on to progress that arc. But Bru didn't care enough about that point from his own arc to do that.

Now the fact that Alex and Rachel stayed behind, even after Cyclops asked Xavier to bring them back safely, now that should be adressed. I have a feeling it will be, soon. :)

I hope so. But Gage has already did more with Cyclops/Xavier in WWHXM then Bru did in Uncanny.

That's the whole point. It should have been addressed when it was relevent. Which it was, right after RAFOTSE. Yet just shrugging and saying it happened off panel is lazy. Especially when it was set up in Issue #1.

QFT, but then again Cyclops can be in Carey's book, New X-men and any other book, but Bru couldn't use him because he didn't want to mess up AXM.

Yeah, he just doesn't show the love. Look at how he talks about Cap. America, Winter Soldier and everyone and how he talks about the X-men.

But that scene with Tony should be great.

I think thats what bugs me the most about Bru, he doesn't come across very enthusiastic When he talks about the X-men, but when he talks about Cap you can tell how much he likes doing that book. Him talking about Iron Man and Cyclops was the first time I felt like he was happy writting an X-men book.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 02:29 PM

When you make a point of starting off your arc by making Cyclops tell Xavier to bring his family back safe or else, that should have been touched on to progress that arc. But Bru didn't care enough about that point from his own arc to do that.
Cyclops isn't one of Brubaker's cast members, so I don't think he's obligated to cover what could be a major, life-altering scene for the character. Someone in this thread already criticized him over his regard for shared continuity. However, when he shows a scene reflecting the tension between Xavier and Cyclops (as Whedon, Gage, and Carey have all done as well; OMG! he's using the shared continuity), it still isn't enough. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Beast

09-15-2007, 02:35 PM

Cyclops isn't one of Brubaker's cast members, so I don't think he's obligated to cover what could be a major, life-altering scene for the character. Someone in this thread already criticized him over his regard for shared continuity. However, when he shows a scene reflecting the tension between Xavier and Cyclops (as Whedon, Gage, and Carey have all done as well; OMG! he's using the shared continuity), it still isn't enough. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
Why did Brubaker bother featuring said scene with Cyclops at the start of the arc then? Lazy.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 02:43 PM

Why did Brubaker bother featuring said scene with Cyclops at the start of the arc then? Lazy.
I covered that, Beast. Did you not read my post? OH NOES! LAZY!

Beast

09-15-2007, 02:48 PM

I covered that, Beast. Did you not read my post? OH NOES! LAZY!
No, I read it. It's just an increadibly weak argument. I expected better from you.

Gene M.

09-15-2007, 02:49 PM

Maybe Bru isn't covering the scene with Cyclops and Xavier because it just isn't that important? A good bit of us seem like intelligent people. We don't need to have every moment of every character's existence spoon fed to us. Do we really need to be told Scott's reaction? I'm going to take a wild shot in the dark and say he was pissed. I can reach that conclusion on my own, as I'm sure most people can. If Brubaker feels like it's not going to fit his current arc, than he was probably right to not include it. He's the professional writer, not us. It's safe to say that he knows a hell of a lot more about writing comics than we do.

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-15-2007, 02:49 PM

I covered that, Beast. Did you not read my post? OH NOES! LAZY!

Our point is that why the hell did he bother establishing said tension if it would never come into play later?

Oh, right, save it for MC. Maybe. :rolleyes:

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 02:50 PM

No, I read it. It's just an increadibly weak argument. I expected better from you.
Better? Like calling a writer lazy for not writing the scenes you wanted him to write? You know what I call that? Childish.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 02:52 PM

Our point is that why the hell did he bother establishing said tension if it would never come into play later?

Oh, right, save it for MC. Maybe. :rolleyes:
He didn't establish the tension between them in that scene. He just built on the tension that came from what happened in Deadly Genesis and Astonishing X-Men. All Brubaker did was reflect that vaunted "shared continuity" some people seem to hold in awe.

Beast

09-15-2007, 02:53 PM

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 02:54 PM

Beast

09-15-2007, 02:54 PM

Better? Like calling a writer lazy for not writing the scenes you wanted him to write? You know what I call that? Childish.
Who's the one calling names? That would be you.

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-15-2007, 02:54 PM

He didn't establish the tension between them in that scene. The tension came from what happened in Deadly Genesis and Astonishing X-Men. All Brubaker did was reflect that vaunted "shared continuity" some people seem to hold in awe.

I didn't mention the scene, now did I?

Deadly Genesis is basically about both Gabe and Cyke getting seriously pissed off. Half of it went nowhere.

Also, hell, all Bru had to do was show Chuck with a black eye in The Extremists and have Kurt or anyone say something to effect of Scott not taking it too well.

There, one panel.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 02:55 PM

It was important enough to bother spending time setting up in Issue #1.
You're just assuming that he was setting something up. For all we know, he was merely reflecting on that shared continuity.

Beast

09-15-2007, 02:55 PM

He didn't establish the tension between them in that scene. He just built on the tension that came from what happened in Deadly Genesis and Astonishing X-Men. All Brubaker did was reflect that vaunted "shared continuity" some people seem to hold in awe.
But he wasn't. There was an actual point to what Cyclops said. It wasn't just showing tension.

Beast

09-15-2007, 02:56 PM

You're just assuming that he was setting something up. For all we know, he was merely reflecting on that shared continuity.
And you're just assuming that he wasn't. And he wasn't simply reflecting on shared continuity.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 02:59 PM

Who's the one calling names? That would be you.
Wait, you're allowed to expect better of me, but I can't expect better of you? That's hardly fair.

I didn't mention the scene, now did I?
I thought you were referring to that, since that's what everyone keeps going back to.

Deadly Genesis is basically about both Gabe and Cyke getting seriously pissed off. Half of it went nowhere.
What's the point you're trying to make?

Also, hell, all Bru had to do was show Chuck with a black eye in The Extremists and have Kurt or anyone say something to effect of Scott not taking it too well.

There, one panel.

Yeah, that sounds awful. I'm glad it didn't happen that way.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 03:02 PM

But he wasn't. There was an actual point to what Cyclops said. It wasn't just showing tension.
You don't know his intent, Beast. You may like to pretend you do, but you don't.
And you're just assuming that he wasn't. And he wasn't simply reflecting on shared continuity.
Well, we can play this game all day, but you're still insulting him over something you don't actually know the mechanics of. Seriously, restrict the criticism to the actual work, and stop with the insults. It is childish.

Gene M.

09-15-2007, 03:02 PM

It was important enough to bother spending time setting up in Issue #1.
He wasn't setting anything up between Scott and Xavier in that scene. The tension between the two characters had already been established months prior to that issue. That scene (and this is all purely speculative) was probably meant to establish the relationship between Xavier, who is one of his core cast members, and the rest of the X-Men for any readers that were new to the X-Men and were picking up the book based on the name Brubaker being on the cover. He could have just as easily placed any number of other characters in that scene, but Cyclops was the most logical choice considering the story he was telling.

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-15-2007, 03:04 PM

So the character basically is gonna headline a crossover and Bru can't be bothered to have him yell at Chuck???

He pops in every freakin book rather frequently to look bad and at the one moment no one else could've replaced him he's not there??

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:04 PM

He wasn't setting anything up between Scott and Xavier in that scene. The tension between the two characters had already been established months prior to that issue. That scene (and this is all purely speculative) was probably meant to establish the relationship between Xavier, who is one of his core cast members, and the rest of the X-Men for any readers that were new to the X-Men and were picking up the book based on the name Brubaker being on the cover. He could have just as easily placed any number of other characters in that scene, but Cyclops was the most logical choice considering the story he was telling.
Well, the dialogue says otherwise. You should really dig the issue back out and read it.

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-15-2007, 03:06 PM

What's the point you're trying to make.

Bru having one hell of a *bad* plan for Cyke?

Let's have him be the victim of Deadly Genesis and then not do a f****n thing besides EVICTING Chuck.

Let's have his father die and him not even aknowledge it on panel.

See a pattern??

It might just be part of a grand 'Cyke getting his s**t together for MC' scheme, but still, it's rather badly orchestrated. :rolleyes:

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 03:07 PM

goddamnit, havok flipping out and instantly deciding his brother deserves death and that willingness to kill makes the team not xmen for the moment, deciding to lead the starjammers, sending the message to the mansion, corsair burial scene with the starjammers and the stranded xmen................
nothing lazy. brubaker covered everything he needed to, and then moved on to a completely different arc that takes place weeks/months later. beast, you know all this. stop baiting.

Flight

09-15-2007, 03:10 PM

*runs through thread naked*

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 03:10 PM

Bru having one hell of a *bad* plan for Cyke?

Let's have him be the victim of Deadly Genesis and then not do a f****n thing besides EVICTING Chuck.

Let's have his father die and him not even aknowledge it on panel.

See a pattern??

It might just be part of a grand 'Cyke getting his s**t together for MC' scheme, but still, it's rather badly orchestrated. :rolleyes:
Well, Brubaker has mentioned that he wanted to use Cyclops instead of Havok but couldn't. Honestly, we don't know how much use of Cyclops has been denied him and how much is him not wanting to use him or wanting to step on Joss Whedon's toes. We just don't know. Of course, I have no problems with you having problems with not seeing Scott's reaction. That's completely fair, but that doesn't make it Brubaker's responsibility.

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-15-2007, 03:10 PM

Ok, let's use the Banshee/Syrin comparison, then.

Oh, wait, it was dealt with in another book.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:11 PM

You don't know his intent, Beast. You may like to pretend you do, but you don't.
His intent is clear from the scene and his comments about the scene. He chose not to follow up something he set up in Issue #1, by using the lazy excuse that he didn't want to ruin Astonishing. When all he had to do was check with his editors and find out that he wasn't going to ruin anything. And the ruin excuse is pretty weak, given he had Scott appear in the current Morlock arc. So again, it's lazy.
Well, we can play this game all day, but you're still insulting him over something you don't actually know the mechanics of. Seriously, restrict the criticism to the actual work, and stop with the insults. It is childish.
He's explained the mechanics in the various interviews he's made. He was too lazy to check with his editors, after bothering to set something up in dialogue in his very first issue of Uncanny X-Men. I don't get what you're investment in this is. Are you Ed Brubaker with a fake name, like Reggie Hudlin? Are you Brubaker's agent, trying to draw attention away from anyone who complains? What exactly do you get out of not allowing anyone to have an alternate viewpoint? Other than the jollies of arguing? And calling people names.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:13 PM

Ok, let's use the Banshee/Syrin comparison, then.

Oh, wait, it was dealt with in another book.
Of course. Because Brubaker's only looking for the shock value of the death.

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-15-2007, 03:13 PM

That's completely fair, but that doesn't make it Brubaker's responsibility.

Bah, Bru used the 'let's not spoil AXM' argument and then did just that with this interview. Oh, and Cyke appears in NXM and X-Factor. Yeah, that too.

I stick to the bad plan/timing theory.

He probably had some Cyke/Chuck scenes in mind for MC. It's just that the timing rather sucks in continuity, eh.

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 03:15 PM

Well, the dialogue says otherwise. You should really dig the issue back out and read it.

the fact remains that the scene was written due to tension between scott and xavier from astonishing, prompting xavier to leave the mansion to chase down the consequences of his mistake and needing to recruit particular members who were still loyal to him/have a large stake in what happens to the shi'ar.
it wasn't written for some follow-up scene that you all have in mind.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:15 PM

Well, Brubaker has mentioned that he wanted to use Cyclops instead of Havok but couldn't. Honestly, we don't know how much use of Cyclops has been denied him and how much is him not wanting to use him or wanting to step on Joss Whedon's toes. We just don't know. Of course, I have no problems with you having problems with not seeing Scott's reaction. That's completely fair, but that doesn't make it Brubaker's responsibility.
Other than the fact that he used both Cyclops and Beast, even after making excuses.

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 03:15 PM

*runs through thread naked*

you are simply wonderful.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:16 PM

the fact remains that the scene was written due to tension between scott and xavier from astonishing, prompting xavier to leave the mansion to chase down the consequences of his mistake and needing to recruit particular members who were still loyal to him/have a large stake in what happens to the shi'ar.
it wasn't written for some follow-up scene that you all have in mind.
You mean the tension between Scott and Xavier from Deadly Genesis, right?

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 03:16 PM

Ok, let's use the Banshee/Syrin comparison, then.

Oh, wait, it was dealt with in another book.
Yeah, it was dealt with in the book currently featuring Siryn. That's usually how it works.
His intent is clear from the scene and his comments about the scene. He chose not to follow up something he set up in Issue #1, by using the lazy excuse that he didn't want to ruin Astonishing. When all he had to do was check with his editors and find out that he wasn't going to ruin anything. And the ruin excuse is pretty weak, given he had Scott appear in the current Morlock arc. So again, it's lazy.

He's explained the mechanics in the various interviews he's made. He was too lazy to check with his editors, after bothering to set something up in dialogue in his very first issue of Uncanny X-Men. I don't get what you're investment in this is. Are you Ed Brubaker with a fake name, like Reggie Hudlin? Are you Brubaker's agent, trying to draw attention away from anyone who complains? What exactly do you get out of not allowing anyone to have an alternate viewpoint? Other than the jollies of arguing? And calling people names.
I'm not arguing in this circle with you. We've done enough today and in the past. For the record, I don't mind differing opinions and debating comics, but I find the insults tacky and unnecessary. I'll continue to call you on them. Be sure of that.

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 03:16 PM

His intent is clear from the scene and his comments about the scene. He chose not to follow up something he set up in Issue #1, by using the lazy excuse that he didn't want to ruin Astonishing. When all he had to do was check with his editors and find out that he wasn't going to ruin anything. And the ruin excuse is pretty weak, given he had Scott appear in the current Morlock arc. So again, it's lazy.

He's explained the mechanics in the various interviews he's made. He was too lazy to check with his editors, after bothering to set something up in dialogue in his very first issue of Uncanny X-Men. I don't get what you're investment in this is. Are you Ed Brubaker with a fake name, like Reggie Hudlin? Are you Brubaker's agent, trying to draw attention away from anyone who complains? What exactly do you get out of not allowing anyone to have an alternate viewpoint? Other than the jollies of arguing? And calling people names.

he was not too lazy to check with editors, this is more ridiculous assumption and baiting.

Flight

09-15-2007, 03:16 PM

you are simply wonderful. Any part of me in particular...?

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 03:18 PM

You mean the tension between Scott and Xavier from Deadly Genesis, right?

oh that too. i was specifically thinking of the time xavier was told he wasn't welcome with the xmen, but i can't remember the end of deadly genesis. it was probably in that book as well.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:18 PM

he was not too lazy to check with editors, this is more ridiculous assumption and baiting.
Yes he was. He said it himself. He didn't want to bother checking.

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-15-2007, 03:19 PM

the fact remains that the scene was written due to tension between scott and xavier from astonishing,

The hell...?

Due to AXM rather than Deadly Genesis, the OFFICIAL PREQUEL to Rise And Fall...?

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:20 PM

The hell...?

Due to AXM rather than Deadly Genesis, the OFFICIAL PREQUEL to Rise And Fall...?
I guess that's supposed to be proof that Brubaker doesn't even follow up his own continuity. ;)

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 03:23 PM

Yes he was. He said it himself. He didn't want to bother checking.

go find the quote, beast

DarthCyclopsRLZ

09-15-2007, 03:23 PM

I guess that's supposed to be proof that Brubaker doesn't even follow up his own continuity. ;)

Actually, I was referring to the logic behind dotdotdot's comment. I really don't think that badly of Bru, lol.

But Dot said himself he didn't remember too well, so... *shrugs*

kate-pryde

09-15-2007, 03:24 PM

His intent is clear from the scene and his comments about the scene. He chose not to follow up something he set up in Issue #1, by using the lazy excuse that he didn't want to ruin Astonishing. When all he had to do was check with his editors and find out that he wasn't going to ruin anything. And the ruin excuse is pretty weak, given he had Scott appear in the current Morlock arc. So again, it's lazy.

Exactly.

Look at what Christos Gage did with Xavier and Scott in WWH:X. That was perfect. And if Gage was allowed to use Scott, then there was absolutely no reason Brubaker couldn't.

It shouldn't be up to a newbie writer in a crossover event that's suppose to be nothing other than one big fight to handle major character development that is built up from a core book. That should have been in Uncanny. But what Gage did with WWH:X was far better than anything Brubaker did in in the whole boring, stupid Rise & Fall arc.

If Gage and the editors could figure out who was where in the WWH:X, then why can't Brubaker do that with what should be the friggin' flagship X-book!?!?

What really bothers me about this is that it's the same thing over and over again with Brubaker - he writes long whined decompressed scenes filled with nothing and forgets to include the key character moments.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:24 PM

go find the quote, beast
I'm not interested in doing tons of searches. Why don't you go find it instead.

Erik Lehnsherr

09-15-2007, 03:26 PM

Ed Brubaker's scope of vision is why he's one of the very best writers in comics today and I can't wait for this to come to fruition post Messiah Complex in Feb and March: So I was like, "… Huh! Well… that's actually kind of cool!" Because what he's saying is really true. Ah, I'll just tell you who he's saying it to - he's saying it to Tony Stark. He's basically telling him to shove the whole Registration Act up his ass, post-"Messiah Complex" after everything that happens. Basically he's just saying, "We aren't vigilantes. This is just who we were born as. You can't tell a guy who was born with wings that he can't fly unless he works for the government." So it's just like **** you. I was born with feet! I can walk! I don't need your permission. So it was a really important thing to be said and then I realized how much it can be seen as that metaphor. I realized, "Ah, ****. I've really done a disservice to the X-Men by staying away from that stuff." So but at the same time I don't want to do the "Oh woe is me, we're so hated" stuff, so I want to try and take it in the opposite direction, sort of, with the post-"Messiah Complex" stuff. We'll be hearing a lot more about that later

LOL@ people still whining and complaining about that little Shiar story. It's over. It's finished. For him at least....now it's time for the main event and innovations galore.

Does anyone else think that Brubaker just doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about?

Quote:
Trying to read it as someone who hadn't read any of the X-Men comics, it was impenetrable. I had no idea who most of these characters were. Stuff jumped around from issue to issue. I'm not trying to diss those guys - that was just the style of storytelling at the time.

I didn't think that X-Cutioner's song was THAT difficult to get. It wasn't Shakespeare or anything.
Quote:
He also has a huge supporting cast of bad guys. He has the Brotherhood or whatever you'd call them - an army at his disposal.

Huh? The Brotherhood or whatever you'd call them?

So, Brubaker has no idea whats going on. Nick Lowe's favorite crossover is X-Cutioner's Song. Alonso loves Cable, Bishop and Forge. Claremont ran out of good ideas. Carey is being shuffled onto a maxiseries solo book. And Joe Quesada has boner for Emma Frost and thinks Jean is boring. It just isn't sounding good to me right now. Its late, so I'm hoping I'm just tired and things look up in the morning.

Actually he knows exactly what he's saying...it all came off convoluted but upon second read and doing his analysis of it, it wasn't as bad. "90s Crossover done right". Works for me. Salute Ed Brubaker, top 3 writers in Marvel Comics, right now.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:26 PM

Actually, I was referring to the logic behind dotdotdot's comment. I really don't think that badly of Bru, lol.

But Dot said himself he didn't remember too well, so... *shrugs*
I was actually making a joke there. And agreed, kate-pryde.

I would adore to see Gage get the gig on Uncanny X-Men. Or at least a core X-Book.

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 03:26 PM

I'm not interested in doing tons of searches. Why don't you go find it instead.

so you can't back up this bullshit. that's pretty telling.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:27 PM

Ed Brubaker's scope of vision is why he's one of the very best writers in comics today and I can't wait for this to come to fruition post Messiah Complex in Feb and March:
Yeah, that gave me hope that we'll actually see the X-Men from Brubaker. Not just X-Men in name only.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:36 PM

so you can't back up this bullshit. that's pretty telling.
And it's not as simple a matter as talking to my editor to clear using Cyclops. Sometimes you steer clear of a character while someone else (a writer I respect a lot, by the way) is doing a major character arc with them, out of respect for their story, and so you won't spoil it in any way whatsoever. That's my policy, at least.
I.E. - I didn't want to bother checking, because I didn't want to spoil Astonishing.

Even though I used both Cyclops and Beast in both Uncanny X-Men storyarcs so far. :p

Pach!

09-15-2007, 03:37 PM

A lot of selective reading going on in this thread, eh? :p

And I'm talking about the article,just to make sure.

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 03:38 PM

I.E. - I didn't want to bother checking, because I didn't want to spoil Astonishing.

Even though I used both Cyclops and Beast in both Uncanny X-Men storyarcs so far. :p

you just proved that brubaker didn't say those things, and made no comment that accounted for said laziness, you just inferred it because you can't read interviews.

continue proving my points for me in the future, because i'm too lazy to do it myself.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:41 PM

you just proved that brubaker didn't say those things, and made no comment that accounted for said laziness, you just inferred it because you can't read interviews.

continue proving my points for me in the future, because i'm too lazy to do it myself.
No, I proved my point. He outright stated that he didn't bother to check with Editorial. When he easily could have done so and been told the same thing that every writer was. That Astonishing happens after the current books, and before Messiah Complex. But I know you, you're disagreeing simply for the sake of disagreeing. His excuse doesn't even make sense, because he did use Cyclops in both storyarcs. It's just lazy.

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 03:42 PM

No, I proved my point. He outright stated that he didn't bother to check with Editorial. When he easily could have done so and been told the same thing that every writer was. That Astonishing happens after the current books, and before Messiah Complex. But I know you, you're disagreeing simply for the sake of disagreeing. His excuse doesn't even make sense, because he did use Cyclops. It's just lazy.

no seriously, he didn't say that. and you know exactly what you're doing. stop.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 03:42 PM

I.E. - I didn't want to bother checking, because I didn't want to spoil Astonishing.

Even though I used both Cyclops and Beast in both Uncanny X-Men storyarcs so far. :p
Brubaker having Cyclops deal with his father's death could, in fact, interfere with a major character arc in ways that having Cyclops and Hank make inconsequntial appearances would not.

UGH! Let it go, Chris!

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:43 PM

no seriously, he didn't say that. and you know exactly what you're doing. stop.
What exactly am I doing? Other than having an opinion you don't agree with.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:44 PM

Brubaker having Cyclops deal with his father's death could, in fact, interfere with a major character arc in ways that having Cyclops and Hank make inconsequntial appearances would not.

UGH! Let it go, Chris!
Why would it? Astonishing cares even less about refrencing continuity.

There's nothing about Corsair's death that would change one iota of Astonishing.

Novaya Havoc

09-15-2007, 03:45 PM

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 03:46 PM

What exactly am I doing? Other than having an opinion you don't agree with.

you're intentionally misrepresenting the actual information. also - we all know that those statements happened before this supposed cyclops "death", and that brubaker had a conversation with whedon about what should be done here. you can't explain laziness into that situation.

Novaya Havoc

09-15-2007, 03:47 PM

Yeah, it was dealt with in the book currently featuring Siryn. That's usually how it works.

And it was dealt with beautifully by PAD. I loved Siryn's whole reaction and the video-DVD/pipe scene.

It gave Siryn some added character in the book she's presently in.

I love Siryn.

~Fin.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:49 PM

you're intentionally misrepresenting the actual information. also - we all know that those statements happened before this supposed cyclops "death", and that brubaker had a conversation with whedon about what should be done here. you can't explain laziness into that situation.
We know Cyclops doesn't die. And so does Brubaker. He's writing part of Messiah Complex.

So how is following up what you established in Issue #1, hurting Astonishing X-Men?

Slung

09-15-2007, 03:49 PM

Brubaker having Cyclops deal with his father's death could, in fact, interfere with a major character arc in ways that having Cyclops and Hank make inconsequntial appearances would not.

How? How would having a few panels showing Cyclops upset about Corsair, Rachel and Alex have any effect on Astonishing?

And its kind of too late to show Scott's reaction to his father's death now. I'm hoping at some time we see him from of his father's memorial or something. I mean, even Mr. and Mrs. Grey's deaths get referenced and they are even more supporting characters than Corsair.

Christopher O

09-15-2007, 03:50 PM

Why would it? Astonishing cares even less about refrencing continuity.

There's nothing about Corsair's death that would change one iota of Astonishing.
Well, in a perfect world, it wouldn't. However, some fans insist on this "shared continuity" and may take issue with major developments with Cyclops in a book that he isn't even featured in. Or, you know, Brubaker genuinely doesn't like the idea of doing huge things with characters that aren't officially his to do those things with. I can imagine him not appreciating Bendis or someone else introducing Winter Soldier to some long lost family members or having him fall in love with Iron Man, because those things are, you know, kinda major and not really the place of anyone else. That is, if you treat this "shared continuity" thing with some respect. Bru seems to.

Beast

09-15-2007, 03:52 PM

Well, in a perfect world, it wouldn't. However, some fans insist on this "shared continuity" and may take issue with major developments with Cyclops in a book that he isn't even featured in. Or, you know, Brubaker genuinely doesn't like the idea of doing huge things with characters that aren't officially his to do those things with. I can imagine him not appreciating Bendis or someone else introducing Winter Soldier to some long lost family members or having him fall in love with Iron Man, because those things are, you know, kinda major and not really the place of anyone else. That is, if you treat this "shared continuity" thing with some respect. Bru seems to.
And in this world, it doesn't. And those are some pretty weak sauce comparisons.

dotdotdot

09-15-2007, 03:52 PM

We know Cyclops doesn't die. And so does Brubaker. He's writing part of Messiah Complex.

So how is following up what you established in Issue #1, hurting Astonishing X-Men?

i didn't say its hurting anything. i did say that brubaker spoke with whedon, and now that we've seen the issue with this great scene of cyclops at the brink of death, we can infer what the two of them may have said. what this does tell us is that no one was lazy about anything, even if what they considered best for both books and continuity is something you disagree with, your character assassination bullshit is misinformed and malicious. pretty simple.

edit: and you quoted brubaker to prove it