A good time for All-Star Shazam?

[lovefist911]

:D So many people want the classic Captain Marvel back, why not just do an all-star book? A lesser character like Batgirl are set to get an all-star book, so why not Cap? I think it would be one of the best things DC could do with the Marvel Family. Give the book a good writer and a good art team and let's do it already. Perez, Bryne, Adams or Pacheco would be my first picks for artists, of course Frank Quietly's silver age touch would be great too. As for writting, maybe Alan Moore (wishful thinking, I know), Johns or Busiek. Any thoughts?:D

[hangmanjury]

A good time indeed, or just a good time to start an Earth-5 Shazam title. Would be nice to get Alex Ross doing covers and also being the co-plotter, given his love of the character. As for the art, gotta be someone whimsical and solid. And for the main writer, I'd have to go with Geoff.

[Ryan Day]

Wasn't that pretty much Jeff Smith's book? I think it was technically in continuity and didn't have the all-star label, but that's everything I'd want from an All-Star Shazam book.

[Jamie]

Wasn't that pretty much Jeff Smith's book? I think it was technically in continuity and didn't have the all-star label, but that's everything I'd want from an All-Star Shazam book.

Exactly. If you want someone to do an All-Star Shazam book, why not pick the man whose last work with the character is largely considered the de facto one?

[lovefist911]

Was this the Monster Society run? I missed that, was it a good read? Alex Ross Captain Marvel covers....*drools*

[colossus20]

I love Captain Marvel, and I think that would be a great idea. The Big Red Cheese is so much cooler than the Big Blue Boyscout.

[Buried Alien]

How about All-Star Flash with Barry Allen as the Flash, since DC is dead set against bringing him back in the mainstream timeline.

Sorry for stealing Shazam's thunder here.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Dee]

How about All-Star Flash with Barry Allen as the Flash, since DC is dead set against bringing him back in the mainstream timeline.

I thought you wanted him in the main DC Universe though? Is it now just a case of whatever you can get you'll take?

Sorry for stealing Shazam's thunder here.

I hope this was intentional because it really made me smile :)

[Buried Alien]

I thought you wanted him in the main DC Universe though? Is it now just a case of whatever you can get you'll take?


Yes. DC has broken me. Right now, they can offer me Barry Allen back as a coke addict appearing every other month in THE FLASH and I'd probably take it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ultramandingo]

.......if all star means a lil' worm mr mind with giant coke bottle lens glasses - not a snake or mothra wanna be - in in

[lovefist911]

I Still think Mr Mind is one of the dumbest characters ever, I'd stick to Black Adam, Captain Nazi, and King Kull.

[Liberty Belle Fan]

:D So many people want the classic Captain Marvel back, why not just do an all-star book? A lesser character like Batgirl is set to get an all-star book, so why not Cap? I think it would be one of the best things DC could do with the Marvel Family. Give the book a good writer and a good art team and let's do it already. Perez, Bryne, Adams or Pacheco would be my first picks for artists, of course Frank Quietly's silver age touch would be great too. As for writting, maybe Alan Moore (wishful thinking, I know), Johns or Busiek. Any thoughts?:D

You know lovefist, this is a wonderful idea! I've been saying we need Captain Marvel in his own monhtly/bi-monthly book for awhile now and I can't think of a better way to do that than an All-Star book. I'll toss this idea around when I go to the shop next week and I'm sure everyone will agree. We can only hope!

[lovefist911]

You know lovefist, this is a wonderful idea! I've been saying we need Captain Marvel in his own monhtly/bi-monthly book for awhile now and I can't think of a better way to do that than an All-Star book. I'll toss this idea around when I go to the shop next week and I'm sure everyone will agree. We can only hope!

I'm sure that I'm not the only one with this idea, but look at what an All-Star line could do with Captain Marvel, It could bring him back to his classic roots, WHIZ style! I would totally buy an 'All-Star Captain Marvel/Shazam" book!

[LtMarvel]

I'm in! Come on DC! Make me give you my money!

[vazel]

Yes! Yes! This would be awesome! I'm not liking at all what they're doing with one of my favorite franchises in Trials of Shazam so this would be totally awesome.

[lovefist911]

How could fans even pitch this idea to DC?

[Phoney Bone]

All-Star, Shmall-Star...

... Mike Kunkel!

http://www.editoon.com/pix/sandbox/shazam002.jpg

[lovefist911]

what's that from?

[Phoney Bone]

Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam! will be a new on-going series under the "Johnny DC" line of comics. It will be written and drawn by Mike Kunkel. It will build on the groundwork laid out in Jeff Smith's mini-series.

Here's a link to Kunkel's "The Astonish Factory" 'Site.
http://www.theastonishfactory.com/

Mission Statement:

The goal of the Astonish Factory is to introduce long-lasting, fun stories and appealing characters with heart, humor, meaning and positive values for all ages.
Longevity in business is created by simple rules:
Honesty, Quality, Integrity and Respect for the audience.
To be professional is of the upmost. The entertainment media, if used poorly, can have a negative impact on all ages. We strive to show that we care about those that we work with and work for, both in our company and in the audience.

[lovefist911]

So it'll be like a Batman Beyond type book?

[lovefist911]

If Earth-5 is a Marvel Family earth, does that mean that there is two Marvel Families right now?

[hangmanjury]

Yes. There might even be more, depending on how many earths the Marvel Family was duplicated in.

Hey, to me, the more good interpretations they can come up with, the better.

[hangmanjury]

Yes. There might even be more, depending on how many earths the Marvel Family was duplicated in.

Hey, to me, the more good interpretations they can come up with, the better.

[hangmanjury]

Yes. There might even be more, depending on how many earths the Marvel Family was duplicated in.

Hey, to me, the more good interpretations they can come up with, the better.

[Titanium]

Earth 5 isn't the same Earth S either. It's main heroes are the Marvel family, but there's a marvel influenced Green Lantern, and probably other heroes. I really want to see Earth-5 as All Star Shazam, with a more modern telling of the kid turning into the Mightiest Mortal and all the other heroes that show up in that world.

Marvel Green Lantern, Green Arrow, what about a Batman in the Shazam universe?

[witchboy]

Erik Larsen has done some great stories in Big Bang Comics , as well as Savage Dragon and it's defunct spin-off Freedom Force with a Shazam inspired character of Mighty Man . Some of the flashback stories with MM are really cute , and really have the look and feel of classic Shazam stories . He'd be a great choice for AS Shazam if he has the time .

[lovefist911]

I never really cared for Larsen's art, it always looked too much like sloppy McFarlane art. I'd like a real Silver age artist like Neal Adams, but right now my go-to guy would be Carlos Pacheco.

[lovefist911]

Does anyone think that if an All Star book did get off the ground, should there be a dividing of the magic between Billy, Mary and Freddy? I've never been a fan of that.

[CosmonautCowboy]

.......if all star means a lil' worm mr mind with giant coke bottle lens glasses - not a snake or mothra wanna be - in in

Yes! Mr. Mind has been much maligned as of late! That was my one real dislike with Jeff Smith's Monster Society of Evil. I love the classic Mr. Mind.

I think that above all a Captain Marvel comic should be fun. Updating it a bit is good, too, but if you lose sight of that main goal, it's going to suffer. And one of the reasons Cap was so fun was the wacky villains.

[lovefist911]

I don't think that an All Star book should have the campy "holy moly" crap that made it corny back in the 70's, but rather a more mature theme much like POS had. I'm not a big fan of Mr. Mind but he does have history with the Marvels, it'd be hard to but him in a book like this and not make him look stupid. But then again, All Star Superman has Krypto and I HATE super animals. OOOPS! Better add talking tigers to that list too.

[lovefist911]

Does anyone think that if Busiek did the writting and the Dodsons did the art, that this would be a great book?

[lovefist911]

bump, bump, bump.

[Pól Rua]

Does anyone think that if an All Star book did get off the ground, should there be a dividing of the magic between Billy, Mary and Freddy? I've never been a fan of that.

Well, it DOES come from the 1940's stuff. It just never actually had any effect.
One of those 'What's 1/3rd of Infinity?' dealies.

[Pól Rua]

I don't think that an All Star book should have the campy "holy moly" crap that made it corny back in the 70's, but rather a more mature theme much like POS had. I'm not a big fan of Mr. Mind but he does have history with the Marvels, it'd be hard to but him in a book like this and not make him look stupid. But then again, All Star Superman has Krypto and I HATE super animals. OOOPS! Better add talking tigers to that list too.

The problem with the 1970's thing wasn't that it was corny, but that it was played as camp.
Captain Marvel is the perfect cornball superhero, but it needs to be played 100% straight. Not ironic, or cynical. The strength of C.C. Beck's original work was that he was sincere.
Yes, it's not 'mature', but hell, it's a kid who says a magic word and turns into a superhero. We don't NEED a mature Captain Marvel. What we need is someone who'll do it without feeling the need to make excuses for the series being 'unrealistic' or 'immature' and just concentrate on neat, fun, exciting stories.

[lovefist911]

So I take it you didn't like The Power Of Shazam! series?

[Pól Rua]

So I take it you didn't like The Power Of Shazam! series?

Actually, no. I liked it just fine.
And I have a LOT of respect for Jerry Ordway who, from what I've heard, is not only a talented artist, but also a helluva nice guy.
I don't think it was as good as the Captain's Golden Age stuff, but it was a lot more respectful than 90% of other stuff DC's done with the character.
That said, it was limited in that it was basically a standard mainstream superhero title, and as a result, didn't really play to the character's strengths.

To me, the character of Captain Marvel is almost the perfect all-ages appropriate vehicle. It has all the charm of something like 'The Iron Giant' or 'The Princess Bride'.
'Power of Shazam', while (as I said) respectful, was an attempt to turn it into a standard mainstream ongoing 24 page in continuity superhero comic. And it succeeded at that.
But I think it can be a lot more than that.

I think forcing the character into a mold which doesn't suit him is one of the things which turns him into 'just another Superman'.

Here are a couple of things I think should be taken into account with the character.

1. Continuity. Not important. Each story should be able to stand on its own. Pretty much the only major multi-part story featuring the Captain was the original Monster Society story. This makes it more accessible to new readers who don't necessarily need to plow through backstory and soap opera style gear. Stick to the core concepts, but don't be a slave to it.

2. Distribution. Don't just go through Diamond. Jeff Smith is producing what is probably the highest selling comic in the English language in 'Bone', however you won't find it at the top of the sales charts. Why? Because he distributes most of his copies through school book clubs.
If you want to target kids as an audience, don't expect them to go somewhere to get it. Kids are crazy like that. Go to where the kids are. Distribute to schools, bookstores, libraries.
(And I'm speaking as a comic retailer, here, too.)

3. Format. Don't be restricted to the standard pamphlet format. If you're selling to kids, you want something durable, that can be put on a bookshelf and read over and over again. Something bright, colourful, that grabs the attention. Make the format suit the work, not nice versa.

4. Audience. Make it all-ages. Captain Marvel is the adventures of a kid who turns into a superhero and has great adventures. Heartwarming, exciting, optimistic, but above all FUN! If the Geoff Johns or Garth Ennis fans think it's too kiddie or whatever, then maybe they should stick to... um... 90% of the stuff that's already on comic store shelves.
Seriously, do we NEED more of the same?
However, with that in mind...

5. Don't talk down to your audience. It's widely believed that writing for kids is harder than writing for adults. Kids can spot insincerity a mile off, and they hate being talked down at. However, there's stuff you can do with kids literature that's harder with stuff aimed at adults. You don't have to imagine that you're talking to a jaded, cynical audience. Remember what it was like to have fun, to be imaginative. Remember your sense of wonderment and amazement at the world, and try and convey those things through your work.

6. Talent. Get good people. As I said earlier, writing for kids is HARD WORK. One of the strengths of the old Fawcett stuff is the variety of tone across the work. Captain Marvel would have wild, imaginative adventures across time and space, but would never be too busy to help an ordinary person in need,
Mary's adventures ranged from glorious fantasy tales, to the day-to-day, and Freddy's adventures tended to be more realistic, with tales of ordinary people in need. Add to that, Tawky Tawny's comical adventures in day to day life, and the broad slapstick of Uncle Marvel.
This allows for a variety of styles across a wide range of genres. And as each story should be self-contained, there's no reason why you can't have different writers and artists working on different stories. Besides, this gives you a great opportunity to get people who'd love to work on a project but wouldn't have the time to do an ongoing monthly title. The audience will let you know what they like.

7. Aaaand, audience again. Captain Marvel should certainly be able to be enjoyed by adults in the way that all good children's fiction is (Jim Henson, Roald Dahl, Hayao Miyazaki, Chuck Jones...), but it should be remembered that the main audience is a young one. This doesn't mean it has to be stupid, or oversimplified, or ludicrous, or self-consciously campy.
In fact, it shouldn't be any of these things. Feel free to challenge, to inspire, to stimulate and engage your audience, but never forget that your job is to entertain them.

Just my thoughts.

[lovefist911]

Great thoughts, all of them. Although I feel that the formula that made Captian Marvel such a hit in the 40's simply for the most part, would not work anymore. I feel less kids in the age group of 5-11 years old don't read comics and more teens and young adults are.

Because of the shift in readership, DC is taking Captian Marvel in the direction its going in and getting mixed feelings about it. For the readers who don't care for Billy as "Marvel", Freddy as "Shazam" and "Black" Mary, I started this topic for all in favor of an "All-Star Shazam" title. Maybe DC will raise an eyebrow an consider the idea, maybe they won't. I think that now would be a great time for a title like this.

I just don't feel that the kid friendly approch is the best way to go. I could be wrong, the Shazam and the Monster Society series was a great read, Jeff Smith did a great job, but can it be done on a monthy or bi-monthly basis in an All Star book?

[ShaggyB]

Great thoughts, all of them. Although I feel that the formula that made Captian Marvel such a hit in the 40's simply for the most part, would not work anymore. I feel less kids in the age group of 5-11 years old don't read comics and more teens and young adults are.

Because of the shift in readership, DC is taking Captian Marvel in the direction its going in and getting mixed feelings about it. For the readers who don't care for Billy as "Marvel", Freddy as "Shazam" and "Black" Mary, I started this topic for all in favor of an "All-Star Shazam" title. Maybe DC will raise an eyebrow an consider the idea, maybe they won't. I think that now would be a great time for a title like this.

I just don't feel that the kid friendly approch is the best way to go. I could be wrong, the Shazam and the Monster Society series was a great read, Jeff Smith did a great job, but can it be done on a monthy or bi-monthly basis in an All Star book?

I feel go with the All Star Label and have it written from the eyes of an 8-11 year old boy. Hes a kid. He should think and act as a kid. The reader should get that and enjoy it. If they dont.... then stick with Trials of Shazam.

[Pól Rua]

Great thoughts, all of them. Although I feel that the formula that made Captian Marvel such a hit in the 40's simply for the most part, would not work anymore. I feel less kids in the age group of 5-11 years old don't read comics and more teens and young adults are.

The thing is, people keep saying that it won't work.
It IS working.
Jeff Smith's 'Bone' sells huge numbers, but because most of it's not via Diamond, people don't see it. I don't know about the US, but kids in Australia LOVE comics like Asterix and Tintin.
We have comic magazines aimed specifically at kids (glossy paper, A5 format) that are sold through newsagents and supermarkets, and they do big numbers, but we as comic fans have gotten so used to ONLY seeing direct market sales and Diamond figures.

Kids LOVE comics and kids will READ comics.

If you build it, they WILL come.

[hangmanjury]

The thing is, people keep saying that it won't work.
It IS working.
Jeff Smith's 'Bone' sells huge numbers, but because most of it's not via Diamond, people don't see it. I don't know about the US, but kids in Australia LOVE comics like Asterix and Tintin.
We have comic magazines aimed specifically at kids (glossy paper, A5 format) that are sold through newsagents and supermarkets, and they do big numbers, but we as comic fans have gotten so used to ONLY seeing direct market sales and Diamond figures.

Kids LOVE comics and kids will READ comics.

If you build it, they WILL come.
I really like Jeff Smith's take on Shazam, with his return to the Captain and Billy being separate personalities. It gives kids both a relatable character and an ideal template, while allowing for some hilarity to amuse us more jaded readers.

[TROUBLEZ]

How about All-Star Flash with Barry Allen as the Flash, since DC is dead set against bringing him back in the mainstream timeline.

Sorry for stealing Shazam's thunder here.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I used to get tired of reading your posts about bringing Barry Allen back because I grew up reading Wally West as the Flash. After reading him in JUSTICE and Marv Wolfmans explanation of how he would have brought back Barry Allen (he would have arrived back in time, but would still end up having the same fate,so he would...well I'm sure you read it, and IMO it's a very good idea)I think it makes alot of sense now. I like Wally but I don't like the Incredibles style family now or the art so I'm waiting a while before I start buying it. Barry had a decent death but he shouldn't have died so soon.

As for All Star Shazam, that would be cool, but it seems like no one at DC can get the character right, so I doubt a good Captain Marvel All Star-ized is possible.

[Phoney Bone]

1. Continuity. Not important. Each story should be able to stand on its own.

2. Distribution. Don't just go through Diamond.

3. Format. Don't be restricted to the standard pamphlet format.

4. Audience. Make it all-ages.

5. Don't talk down to your audience.

6. Talent. Get good people.

7. Aaaand, audience again. Captain Marvel should certainly be able to be enjoyed by adults in the way that all good children's fiction is (Jim Henson, Roald Dahl, Hayao Miyazaki, Chuck Jones...), but it should be remembered that the main audience is a young one.

Just my thoughts.

And great thoughts they are!

All of the creative points you list describe what Mike Kunkel has been doing for years. I have much faith that he will do the same with Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam! for the Johnny DC line.

All of the publishing/distribution points you list describe what DC is doing with the Johnny DC line. They market comics in both the standard American 22-pages format and the popular digest/Manga format for book stores.





Smith's Monster Society of Evil and Kunkel's continuation in Magic of Shazam would make any attempt at an All-Star Shazam! redundant.

We already have an "All-Star" version.

[lovefist911]

The Johnny DC line is fine and all, but what about a more adult themed Captain Marvel that's not meant for kids and is not Trials? An All Star book would fit nicely here. With Freddy, Mary, Black Adam, and even Shazam as The Champian, this book can showcase different classical stories retold with a modern twist. I would like to see more of Shazam's younger days myself. Does anyone remember World's Finest #262, the Captain Marvel and Champian team up?

[Sabaition]

All I wanna see is the return the freakin Marvel Corp. Even if only for a few books.

[Pól Rua]

The Johnny DC line is fine and all, but what about a more adult themed Captain Marvel that's not meant for kids and is not Trials? An All Star book would fit nicely here. With Freddy, Mary, Black Adam, and even Shazam as The Champian, this book can showcase different classical stories retold with a modern twist. I would like to see more of Shazam's younger days myself. Does anyone remember World's Finest #262, the Captain Marvel and Champian team up?

There IS a Captain Marvel book aimed at an older audience.
It's called Superman.
And yeah, I remember that story. It was totally cool.

[lovefist911]

Aw come on man! Superman and Cap are TOTALLY different.

[Pól Rua]

Aw come on man! Superman and Cap are TOTALLY different.

Yeah, but I think another standard-issue superhero adventure series about a flying strongman in red tights is surplus to requirements.
DC already has their standard issue mainstream 'world's greatest superhero' series. In fact, they have, what 3 of them, 4? (Action, Superman, Confidential... is there another one? Superman/Batman maybe.)
Yes, Superman and Cap ARE different, but they fill the same sorta niche. They're both square-jawed strongmen in capes who fly and serve as 'The World's Greatest Superhero'. The chief difference between the two back in the Golden Age was that Superman's adventures were comparatively naturalistic, while Cap's adventures tended more towards a sense of wonderment and fantasy.
When you try and put Cap into that naturalistic mode, there's just too much crossover.
It's not that they're EXACT Carbon Copies of one another, but they would end up telling similar stories, and as such, you'd quickly end up with a series that is just superfluous.

[lovefist911]

I see your point in a sense. They are similar in some aspects but it's not like comparing Superman and Supreme. Cap can stand alone in a book, why that fan base is so small to support it is beyond me. Maybe most people see Cap as just another Superman, maybe DC sees Cap as a possible upstart to the Superman dynasty and intentally keeps him out of the spot light. DC owns both so what do they have to lose.

[Sabaition]

I'll say it again... MARVEL CORP!!!

Sure would be fun to see them verse some people. Not to mention really give Captian Marvel a serious back up force. Or make Marvel a more intimidating figure when comfronting other Hero's or villians. Imagine a huge event, like say the JLA taking Mary Marvel or even Black Adam to trial, her getting a death sentence.

Suddenly Marvel appears claiming their his problem to solve and the "Mortal" world can't judge them. An telling the JLA's smug selfs "One way or another." The Marvel Corp portal jumps in all around in the air an on the ground "He's/She's coming back with me."

Marvel could create them from other gods making them similar yet not as powerful as the Captain. Make them from other alien worlds similar to say the Green Lanterns. I mean, magic doesn't just exsist on Earth in DC does it?

May be a lame idea... Guess I just wanna reason to see the Corp one last time.

[lovefist911]

When did they appear? They're not the same as the lame Lt Marvels are they?

[Sabaition]

When did they appear? They're not the same as the lame Lt Marvels are they?

Lol that would be them, lol

That or redo it, like with the group of kids all named Billy Batson were kidnaped from around the world and given the Power of Shazam.

[Pól Rua]

DC owns both so what do they have to lose.

DC owns both, but they have more invested in terms of Superman.
Backlist Trades and comics aside, there's underoos, energy drinks, colouring books, movies, tv series... they've dedicated a LOT of time and energy (AND MONEY!) into making 'Superman' as a brand marketable.
By investing that attention in Captain Marvel, at least in the same areas, they can be seen as weakening the pre-eminence of Superman as a brand.

That's why Captain Marvel and Superman work best when they're NOT standing together. You have to emphasize the differences between the characters, which is why I suggest doing Captain Marvel Comics in a different format, through different distributors, aimed at a different audience, with a different tone, to Superman.
In this way, you're not dealing with two monthly mainstream comic magazines with similar art, story tone, and central archetypical characters aimed at the same audience (15-25 year old males) and distributed by Diamond to the direct market.

[Pól Rua]

Oh Gods, Marvel Corps? Really?
That's awful.
I know, I know, I'm coming across as mister old school Captain Marvel, but I really like the Lieutenant Marvels. I think it's kinda neat that Cap has a team of reserves that he can call on in a REAL jam.

Yeah, I'm all for them returning, but ditch the 'Marvel Corps' moniker. It sounds so 'faux-tough'...

[lovefist911]

What was the name of the fat one, Chubbs Marvel?

[hangmanjury]

Fat Billy.

[Sabaition]

Oh Gods, Marvel Corps? Really?
That's awful.
I know, I know, I'm coming across as mister old school Captain Marvel, but I really like the Lieutenant Marvels. I think it's kinda neat that Cap has a team of reserves that he can call on in a REAL jam.

Yeah, I'm all for them returning, but ditch the 'Marvel Corps' moniker. It sounds so 'faux-tough'...

Lol, yeah, plus there are alot of CORPS out there now. Plus it's magic not a military. I mean, Shazam (AN HE'S CALLED MARVEL NOW, NOT SHAZAM), had all sorts of mystical items. You would think he could create several new fighters. Or again use lesser gods for more Marvels.

I just feel it'll make Marvel a more powerful character knowing that with a word he can summon a serious force.

[lovefist911]

King Kull was originally a Captain Marvel villian, right? What could an All-Star version be like that the classic version wasn't?