First Script review of the Magneto film (Spoilers)

[jmc247]

X-Men fans will have to clammer for the Magneto film until 2009. Lucky for all of you, I’m here, I’ve read the script and I’m ready to drop knowledge on you.

Be warned… This is a dark ride.

The Story

Remember that part in the X-Men movie when they glossed over Magneto’s discovery of his mutant gift in the concentration camp? There’s no glossing over it in the script for the Magneto prequel. This story begins and ends at Auschwitz, the defining moment in Erik Lehnsherr’s life. What happens in the middle? The origins of a conflicted comic book villain, that’s what.

Magneto follows Erik from his time as a guinea pig for his Nazi captors in Auschwitz, to his short-lived domestic life and into his search to bring all Nazi’s to justice. The pursuit of revenge takes Erik all over the world, from France to Argentina to Israel to the United States, and his experiences lay the ground work for his evolution into Magneto.

In the beginning, Erik is hesitant to kill; aghast at the thought of it, but pain and rage define him (and Star Wars fans know where that leads). When he stumbles across one of the Nazi fiends who ran the camp and tortured its inhabitants, he demands that the man be taken to the authorities. Unfortunately, Erik is the outsider and this only elicits laughter. A fight ends in the death of the Nazi and the outing of Erik’s powers to the townspeople who proceed to burn his house with his wife and daughter still inside.

Erik grieves and this only stokes the anger. He hopes to quiet this storm by bringing other Nazi’s in for their crimes. During the course of this mission, he stumbles onto a far-reaching Nazi plot. It seems the Fourth Reich is still interested in the creation of a ubermensch and works with the newly emerging mutant strain of evolution to accomplish this. Erik finds some assistance at the hands of a CIA agent stationed in Argentina, but when a confrontation between Erik and some Nazi’s goes ballistic, the agent is pulled back to America and Erik must find new leads.

During his travels, Erik discovers a kindred spirit running an institute in Israel. His name – Charles Xavier. He’s bald, pretty quick on his feet, and like Erik has powers beyond that of your run-of-the-mill homo sapien. Charles tries to help Erik handle what’s inside him and the two men form a friendship.

A bar was set by X-Men, raised by X-Men 2 and dropped into a deep, DEEP chasm by X-Men 3. Going into my reading of this script, I was looking forward to the Wolverine prequel they’re developing a lot more. Who’s cooler than Wolverine? (Silence! Gambit fans…) I thought, what could they possibly do in a script to make me interested in Magneto? I’m sorry to have doubted them. This is a dark journey into the genesis of a villain. This is what Star Wars Episodes 1-3 should have been.

I do worry that some of the violence, necessary to truly understand what drives Erik to embrace his deadly destiny, will be lost in transition to the screen in an effort to make this appeal to a wide audience. I’m worried that the casting office has the monumental task of discovering a young Erik Lehnsherr (and Charles Xavier for that matter). I’m worried about the weight of this material in the hands of the film’s director.

I am not, however, worried about this script and you shouldn’t worry either. Fans will appreciate this early friendship developed between Erik and Charles, long before they adopt their monikers of Magneto and Professor X. I can’t wait to see them fight side by side. Make no mistake, this is Erik’s movie and Charlie doesn’t appear until the mid-point. Fans of the comic books and films alike will appreciate early appearances of Cerebro and some brief, but notable mutant cameos.

Let’s face it, Nazi’s are the perfect villains because no one wants them to succeed… except for other Nazi’s I guess… and F them! It worked in Indiana Jones, it works much better in Magneto because of the character’s awful and personal history with them. If you thought Magneto was compelling as a villain, you need to experience the anti-hero that is Erik Lehnsherr.

http://www.collider.com/entertainment/reviews/article.asp/aid/5398/tcid/1


I guess in the Movie X-verse Magneto has no children that we know about as Magda died in the fire with Anya according to the script.

[Tazirai]

Hmm seems interesting so far. I was dreading the thought of a Magneto movie. I was thinking, it would be about him getting his powers back or something. His "movieverse" origin seems okay.

[Sanagi]

While I'm not sure there's enough premise here for a movie, I always liked this kind of story in the comics.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Yeah..I have no problem with Pietro and Wanda being kept out of this. This is about Magneto. His origin is probably the most fascinating in the history of Marvel. That's why I really have no problem with him having no powers in the 616 because his character is so rich it endure without his infamous powers for a time being. And I'm eager to see his time as a Nazi hunter portrayed on film. I wonder if Isabella will be apart of this? Or even Gabrielle Haller? Remains to be seen.

[jmc247]

Yeah..I have no problem with Pietro and Wanda being kept out of this.

Its no so much that they are kept out of this that I noticed, its more to the point that in the movieverse reality they never exist period as characters as Magda died in the fire with Anya in this reality.

[xnef1025]

This sounds a lot like the plot to Hannibal Rising.

[jesse_custer]

In the beginning, Erik is hesitant to kill; aghast at the thought of it, but pain and rage define him (and Star Wars fans know where that leads).

OK, I think we all remember the joke from the first 2,900,000 times.

[jmc247]

This sounds a lot like the plot to Hannibal Rising.

I thought the plot to Hannibal Rising was a take off of Magneto's backstory.

Remember Claremont created his backstory over two decades ago.

[Cyke]

As long as the violence and the CGI don't trump the story, I'll be fine with it. If anything, the script looks like it'll provide a lot of nuance and backstory. I'm not expecting fine art here, but if it turns out to be fine art, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Of course, for a young Charles Xavier, if they get Tom Hardy, I'll go giddy.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I see it being the best Marvel film ever if it all works out. The blend of tragedy and the delving into Erik's psyche is a wonder all it's own. Wolverine...eat your heart out.

[Jared]

The script doesn't say for sure that there's superhuman villain, but it seems likely. Because multiple scenes of Magneto turning his opponents weapons against them will get dull quick. Someone has to pose a real challenge to him. Perhaps Mr. Sinister or the High Evolutionary?

[Erik Lehnsherr]

The script doesn't say for sure that there's superhuman villain, but it seems likely. Because multiple scenes of Magneto turning his opponents weapons against them will get dull quick. Someone has to pose a real challenge to him. Perhaps Mr. Sinister or the High Evolutionary?

Well it didn't get dull in Superman..well at first. And they can have someone use that "Anti-magnetic" gimmick if he needs some of power feat or test of his will on that level. His character progression. That's what is important. And I can't think of a villian in that timeline that fits the context of the story with kind of challenging power.

[StoneGold]

Perhaps Mr. Sinister or the High Evolutionary?

Sinister would be good, just because of the whole Nazi angle. Granted, the character would need to be changed pretty drastically. For one thing, you'd lose the costume, but duh, it's Movie X-Men. But simplify the character so he fits more in line with Maggie: a Nazi scientist, nicknamed Herr Finster (Mr. Sinister in German), who first discovers the existence of super powered mutants. Experiments on them to give himself powers. Continually tracks down Mags after the fall of Berlin. Sin's eventual death leads Mags to create his separatist philosophy.

[Toku King]

I say give him a mutant that could challenge his powers at first, and then Erik rises up and beats him down, and eventually kills him willingly, pushing him into a human killing spree, thus birthing Magneto.

[jmc247]

As long as the violence and the CGI don't trump the story.

I doubt it will

[mattx110]

The script doesn't say for sure that there's superhuman villain, but it seems likely. Because multiple scenes of Magneto turning his opponents weapons against them will get dull quick. Someone has to pose a real challenge to him. Perhaps Mr. Sinister or the High Evolutionary?

ummm, if they do the computer anti-aging thing and end with mckellen going all magneto on a bunch of nazis he tracked down, i'd find that a satisfying ending. he should be fighting himself for most of the movie, so i don't know if a big bad guy is necessary.
super-nazis are fun, but usually because they're corny, and you don't mind them getting blown up. it's rare for a super-nazi to be played straight.

[Sanagi]

Sinister would be good, just because of the whole Nazi angle. Granted, the character would need to be changed pretty drastically. For one thing, you'd lose the costume, but duh, it's Movie X-Men. But simplify the character so he fits more in line with Maggie: a Nazi scientist, nicknamed Herr Finster (Mr. Sinister in German), who first discovers the existence of super powered mutants. Experiments on them to give himself powers. Continually tracks down Mags after the fall of Berlin. Sin's eventual death leads Mags to create his separatist philosophy.
Well, you've solved the objection I had against Mr. Sinister - his incredibly stupid name - so this sounds like a workable plan to me.

[moebius]

Whew...I read "this film begins and ends at Auschwitz" and for a moment thought that was going to be the setting for the whole movie. Happy to be wrong on that one.

Looks like they're going with Claremont's origin of Magneto, which is the right way to go. The key to making a compelling Magneto movie (or writing a compelling Magneto story...listen up X-editors!) is to make it unclear whether Magneto or Xavier is right. Hope they go with that here.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Well, you've solved the objection I had against Mr. Sinister - his incredibly stupid name - so this sounds like a workable plan to me.

Every name in comics sound stupid if you think about it for too long but yeah they can just go with Dr. Nathaniel Essex instead if need be.

[Jared]

I say give him a mutant that could challenge his powers at first, and then Erik rises up and beats him down, and eventually kills him willingly, pushing him into a human killing spree, thus birthing Magneto.

The movie can't really go all-out in ending with him being Magneto the violent mutant supremacist, since we know that he was still buddies with Xavier decades later when they discovered Jean.

[mattx110]

The movie can't really go all-out in ending with him being Magneto the violent mutant supremacist, since we know that he was still buddies with Xavier decades later when they discovered Jean.

it can end with him building the anti-psychich helmet, so he can rip apart nazis in his spare time away from xavier...

[The Mirrorball Man]

I'm very uncomfortable with the Shoah being used as a plot element in a popcorn movie.

[Jared]

I'm very uncomfortable with the Shoah being used as a plot element in a popcorn movie.

It already was in X-Men. And I'd be surprised if that was the only time.

[StoneGold]

It already was in X-Men. And I'd be surprised if that was the only time.

Marathon Man?

[Genki_Desu]

Could be wrong here, but "Erik" isn't really his name is it? I thought it was a pseudonym he adopted while on the run from the nazis and all he could remember was that his name is "Magnus".

[StoneGold]

Could be wrong here, but "Erik" isn't really his name is it? I thought it was a pseudonym he adopted while on the run from the nazis and all he could remember was that his name is "Magnus".

You're wrong, just because this is the movie, and there is no constantly contradicted backstory here. As for the comics... guh, it's been retconned so many times, it's anyone's guess.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Actually it was retconned once in X-Men #72 when he killed the guy who gave him the Erik Lehnsherr identity but every writer since then has ignored that like it never happened to begin with.

[Corrina]

While I'm not sure there's enough premise here for a movie, I always liked this kind of story in the comics.

Yes, this is taken almost verbatim from the comics story by Claremont.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Aka his origin story.

[The Mirrorball Man]

It already was in X-Men. And I'd be surprised if that was the only time.

Sure. I wasn't comfortable with that either.

[Jared]

Sure. I wasn't comfortable with that either.

The holocaust itself wasn't really used for entertainment value. If anything that opening scene establishes that X-Men isn't just a dtypical slam-bang sci-fi action movie. I don't think it's supposed to be comfortable. To me at least, Magneto's original motivation is such an important part of the X-mythos that if you're going to leave it out, you shouln't even bother telling the story. Magneto is a man who ultimately can't see past the worst of humanity, because he's experienced it.

[jesse_custer]

Having the Holocaust scene in X-Men was extremely appropriate. Popcorn movie or not, the main theme of X-Men is the majority discriminating against others, and the Holocaust gives us the most brutal outcome of such discrimination. Plus, as Jared pointed out, the scene is a crucial part of Magneto's background. It makes him that much more interesting and understandable.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Magneto's origin is one of the most intriguing in the history of fiction.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Having the Holocaust scene in X-Men was extremely appropriate. Popcorn movie or not, the main theme of X-Men is the majority discriminating against others, and the Holocaust gives us the most brutal outcome of such discrimination. Plus, as Jared pointed out, the scene is a crucial part of Magneto's background. It makes him that much more interesting and understandable.

I won't deny that discrimination is a major theme in the X-Men franchise, but ultimately, it's a movie about people who wear leather catsuits and beat other people up with their superpowers. Using the Shoah to add color to a character's background in in extremely bad taste.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Magneto's history has always been reflective of these subjects. So I don't see the bad taste of it in the least.

[jesse_custer]

I won't deny that discrimination is a major theme in the X-Men franchise, but ultimately, it's a movie about people who wear leather catsuits and beat other people up with their superpowers. Using the Shoah to add color to a character's background in in extremely bad taste.

The background gives us info on why Magneto is the way he is. He's tired of being discriminated by others, so that's why he creates the Brotherhood. It's not bad taste. It makes perfect sense.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if people dress up in leather or not. The fact is that X-Men has a major theme, it will always have that theme, and any historical event that can add to that theme is highly appropriate storytelling. It's not like they were making fun of burning Jews or showing the flashback in a disrespectful way.

I think not wanting mainstream movies to use history as commentary is anti-freedom of speech.

[The Mirrorball Man]

The background gives us info on why Magneto is the way he is. He's tired of being discriminated by others, so that's why he creates the Brotherhood. It's not bad taste. It makes perfect sense.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if people dress up in leather or not. The fact is that X-Men has a major theme, it will always have that theme, and any historical event that can add to that theme is highly appropriate storytelling. It's not like they were making fun of burning Jews or showing the flashback in a disrespectful way.

I think not wanting mainstream movies to use history as commentary is anti-freedom of speech.

I agree, and that's not what I'm doing here. I'm just saying that I'm not comfortable with the Shoah used as a plot point in a popcorn movie.

You know - and I'm not saying this condescendingly at all - the fact that you're American and probably slightly younger than me probably makes it a little more difficult for you to understand where I'm coming from.

[jesse_custer]

Oh, if you're simply discussing personal feelings, then there's no point in debating this, I guess.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Oh, if you're simply discussing personal feelings, then there's no point in debating this, I guess.

I'm not. It's amazing how fast you can jump to conclusions. There are many, many possibilities beyond "personal feelings" and "broad philosophical statements about life and the universe". I'm not comfortable with the Holocaust being used for entertainment, and I think I have perfectly legitimate reasons for that, though none of them preclude the use of history as commentary.

[jesse_custer]

OK, so you're not "comfortable" with it being used for "entertainment." However, one could make the argument that the event wasn't used for "entertainment." Developing a character or making a point about social relations are hardly strict entertainment.

On the other hand, having Toad's tongue stretch out for yards and yards was definitely used for strict entertainment.

[The Mirrorball Man]

OK, so you're not "comfortable" with it being used for "entertainment." However, one could make the argument that the event wasn't used for "entertainment." Developing a character or making a point about social relations are hardly strict entertainment.

Sure. In fact, strict entertainement, like pure art, simply doesn't exist. Of course I'm not speaking in absolutes here. There are many elements in "X-Men" which stretch beyond cheap thrills and instant gratification. I have, however, no problem with classifying a big budget superhero movie as "entertainment".

[jesse_custer]

If only to move the discussion forward, the question now would be at what point for you did the scene in question go from building a character or theme to entertainment characterized by "bad taste?"

[Jared]

I'm not. It's amazing how fast you can jump to conclusions. There are many, many possibilities beyond "personal feelings" and "broad philosophical statements about life and the universe". I'm not comfortable with the Holocaust being used for entertainment, and I think I have perfectly legitimate reasons for that, though none of them preclude the use of history as commentary.

I don't think you're calling for censorship, and I can appreciate that seeing the holocaust on-screen in any way probably isn't going to have the same personal impact as it might for someone who is Jewish, or gypsy, or connected to any group that was victimized by the Nazis.

However, how do you feel about WWII in general being used as background, or even the setting itself, in a popcorn movie? Or Vietnam, for that matter? Both events saw massive amounts of death, but they're both frequently utilized. I think there comes a point where enough time has passed, and anything in history is pretty much fair game for any kind of storytelling. Hell, there's been successful WWII sitcoms!

[The Mirrorball Man]

If only to move the discussion forward, the question now would be at what point for you did the scene in question go from building a character or theme to entertainment characterized by "bad taste?"

The Shoah is the most horrifying event of the 20th century, and probably long before that. Mixing it with fiction is automatically problematic - it's not necessarily impossible, but it is problematic, because there's a very tangible risk of cheapening very real and very significant events. We're talking about mass extermination here. We're talking about something so horrible, something so huge, that it still shapes the world we live in. The Shoah is not just something that happened to other people a long time ago. It happened to us, it happened to humanity, and we still haven't totally understood its historical significance. The earthquake happened and we're still living in the ruins. There is no equivalent to that.

At what point did the scene in question go from building a character or theme to entertainment characterized by "bad taste?" For me, it was in bad taste from the very beginning, as soon as it was obvious that it was taking place in a concentration camp. For me, unless a filmmaker is extremely talented, it is simply too soon to use the Shoah in a fictional story unless said fictional story is about the Shoah. Here, the extermination of millions of people is used as a metaphor to make the fate of a fictional race of super-beings more interesting. That, for me, is the very definition of bad taste.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I don't think you're calling for censorship, and I can appreciate that seeing the holocaust on-screen in any way probably isn't going to have the same personal impact as it might for someone who is Jewish, or gypsy, or connected to any group that was victimized by the Nazis.

However, how do you feel about WWII in general being used as background, or even the setting itself, in a popcorn movie? Or Vietnam, for that matter? Both events saw massive amounts of death, but they're both frequently utilized. I think there comes a point where enough time has passed, and anything in history is pretty much fair game for any kind of storytelling. Hell, there's been successful WWII sitcoms!

There have always been wars. I have no problem with wars being used in any kind of fiction. Mass, industrialized genocide happened only once in history, and it happened quite recently. I don't think we're ready to use it as flavor material in a popcorn movie. I'm not even sure we know what the long-term consequences of that may be, actually.

[jesse_custer]

Do you think, however, that there was the possibility of director Bryan Singer simply wanting to stay true to Magneto's origin, and that the scene in question illustrates that origin better than any other (and the fact that it reinforces the theme of the movie would also influence Singer that it's appropriate for inclusion)?

[The Mirrorball Man]

Do you think, however, that there was the possibility of director Bryan Singer simply wanting to stay true to Magneto's origin, and that the scene in question illustrates that origin better than any other (and the fact that it reinforces the theme of the movie would also influence Singer that it's appropriate for inclusion)?

I do think that Bryan Singer wanted to stay true to Magneto's current origin story, which, for me, is problematic in itself. I don't believe, however, that that scene illustrates that origin better than any other. I guess that for me, the most direct reference I would have been ready to accept without feeling very uncomfortable would have been a scene set, for example, in the Warsaw ghetto. Even that doesn't feel totally right.

[The Zapper]

The opening scene of X-Men was wonderfully done. I'm not worried about "the long-term consequences" of World War 2 in a X-Men movie or any other movie. If people are going to forget history, it's not going to be Brian Singer's fault:rolleyes:

[jesse_custer]

One more comment and I'm done. I agree that even though the Holocaust occurred 60 years ago that we still don't understand everything about it. I won't suggest that "X-Men" is in the same category of "Citizen Kane" or "Chinatown," but I have always felt that the idea of "X-Men" has strived to point out the evils of discrimination and the actions that discrimination entail. I believe it's great that a concept designed primarily for entertainment can also take a step back and force us to analyze serious topics like discrimination. It shows that even though we don't quite understand why people would murder each other based on their different backgrounds, we are at least trying to comprehend and possibly prevent a similar event from happening again.

[The Mirrorball Man]

The opening scene of X-Men was wonderfully done. I'm not worried about "the long-term consequences" of World War 2 in a X-Men movie or any other movie. If people are going to forget history, it's not going to be Brian Singer's fault:rolleyes:

So you don't think that art has any influence on the way we perceive and interpret reality? You think it just exists in a vacuum, and has no consequences whatsoever? I don't agree.

[The Zapper]

So you don't think that art has any influence on the way we perceive and interpret reality? You think it just exists in a vacuum, and has no consequences whatsoever? I don't agree.

Wow. I didn't say anything of the sort, but trying to say Brian Singer and X-Men movies are going to have huge consequences on how people view World War 2 is one of the most laughable claims I've ever come across. Of all the soap boxes to stand on, you choose this?

[The Mirrorball Man]

One more comment and I'm done. I agree that even though the Holocaust occurred 60 years ago that we still don't understand everything about it. I won't suggest that "X-Men" is in the same category of "Citizen Kane" or "Chinatown," but I have always felt that the idea of "X-Men" has strived to point out the evils of discrimination and the actions that discrimination entail. I believe it's great that a concept designed primarily for entertainment can also take a step back and force us to analyze serious topics like discrimination. It shows that even though we don't quite understand why people would murder each other based on their different backgrounds, we are at least trying to comprehend and possibly prevent a similar event from happening again.

I totally agree, and I think "X-Men" does that quite brilliantly at times, and works very well as a metaphor. It's only when that metaphor starts using the Shoah as a plot element that I'm uncomfortable.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Wow. I didn't say anything of the sort, but trying to say Brian Singer and X-Men movies are going to have huge consequences on how people view World War 2 is one of the most laughable claims I've ever come across. Of all the soap boxes to stand on, you choose this?

I didn't say that. I said we didn't know what kind of consequences those movies will have, and that we should be careful about it. I can imagine a generation, perhaps the next, perhaps the one after that, who will only experience the Shoah through the prism of entertainment. When people forget their history, terrible things happen. Yes, it may have huge consequences.

Eight young Neo-Nazis were arrested the other day because they attacked religious Jews and painted swastikas in synagogues. It happened in Tel-Aviv. (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/070911/5/1mzv.html)

[The Zapper]

Eight young Neo-Nazis were arrested the other day because they attacked religious Jews and painted swastikas in synagogues. It happened in Tel-Aviv. (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/070911/5/1mzv.html)

I know. It wasn't because of X-Men though. Take Germany, it's illegal to even have something with a swastika on it. Trying to bury the past is more dangerous than having Magneto go threw a scene (A very well done scene) that helped show how awful it was.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I know. It wasn't because of X-Men though. Take Germany, it's illegal to even have something with a swastika on it. Trying to bury the past is more dangerous than having Magneto go threw a scene (A very well done scene) that helped show how awful it was.

Since I don't have to live every day in a country that exterminated six million people and started the most violent conflict in the history of mankind not seventy years ago, I won't tell the Germans what they should do and how they should treat their history. Somehow, I suspect that they know better than me.

And with all due respect, if you really think that the little Holocaust scene in "X-Men" "helped show how awful it was", I think you don't have a clue.

[The Zapper]

I think you don't have a clue.

Right back at ya.

EDIT: and if yo do live in Switzerland, you're living in a country that helped Germany exterminate six million people. You see, I really do know my history.

[The Mirrorball Man]

and if yo do live in Switzerland, you're living in a country that helped Germany exterminate six million people. You see, I really do know my history.

Yes. Which means I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: When I said "I think you don't have a clue", I didn't want to insult you or anything like that, I didn't mean to be snarky or sarcastic. I really think that you don't have a clue.

[Jared]

The Holocaust isn't the only genocide to have occurred in the 20th century. It's not necessarily the worst, in terms of the number of people killed. That doesn't make it any less horrible, but it should put some perspective in terms of how artists can deal with it.


Those kids in Isreal were just another group of hateful, shameless thugs getting off on beating up homeless people, rather than any indication of some Nazi resurgence. If they were in America, they probably would have draped themselves in KKK symbolism.

[The Zapper]

The Holocaust isn't the only genocide to have occurred in the 20th century. It's not necessarily the worst, in terms of the number of people killed. That doesn't make it any less horrible, but it should put some perspective in terms of how artists can deal with it.


Those kids in Isreal were just another group of hateful, shameless thugs getting off on beating up homeless people, rather than any indication of some Nazi resurgence. If they were in America, they probably would have draped themselves in KKK symbolism.

Yeah, good points Jared. Also, sorry I got heated with you Mirrorball Man. It's a heated subject, but I could have handled myself in a better manner.

[The Mirrorball Man]

The Holocaust isn't the only genocide to have occurred in the 20th century. It's not necessarily the worst, in terms of the number of people killed. That doesn't make it any less horrible, but it should put some perspective in terms of how artists can deal with it.

Genocides are already in their own category as far as historical events go. I'm not sure it's very wise or very interesting to compare them, or to try and determine which one was the "worst". What's unique about the Shoah, however, is the industrialization of genocide. Extermination camps were set up to kill as many people as possible, as quickly and as efficiently as possible. It's never happened before and it's never happened since then, and there's simply no other event that can put any perspective on that.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Yeah..one could point out to the outright racism here in America that slaughtered and discriminated against Blacks for hundreds of years. "The Black Holocaust" if you will and you don't see too much crying about that. The Holocaust is a theme referred to in many movies and tribulations. It won't harm the industry or history if it's used to clarify the way Erik Lehnsherr sees the world.

[Jared]

I think that if young Erik experiences anything *less* than the concentration camp, like say the Warsaw Ghetto which was mentioned, then it does a disservice to point of the story. The audience has to see where he's coming from, and Erik has to have seen the Abyss. Precisely because it's a comic book story, it's actually easier to deal with a theme that would be extremely touchy. A holocaust survivor becoming a serial killer strikes me as more exploitive than one becoming a militant leader of an oppressed minority...even if he's a comic book super villain with earthquake machines and a space station. There's a broader point to Magneto being what he is, I don't know if I can really say the same about a character like Hannibal Lecter.

[Magneto_X]

There have always been wars. I have no problem with wars being used in any kind of fiction. Mass, industrialized genocide happened only once in history, and it happened quite recently. I don't think we're ready to use it as flavor material in a popcorn movie. I'm not even sure we know what the long-term consequences of that may be, actually.

Wouldn't the American Indians being almost destroyed by the Pilgrims count as industrialized genocide?

Which happened decades before WW II.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Wouldn't the American Indians being almost destroyed by the Pilgrims count as industrialized genocide?


No, I really can't see how that would.

[Jared]

And with all due respect, if you really think that the little Holocaust scene in "X-Men" "helped show how awful it was", I think you don't have a clue.

It was no Schindler's List, but the movie clearly makes out that what's going on in those camps is a horrible thing. We see parents being yanked away from their child, and there's no doubt that they're being taken to their deaths. That the child happens to manifest his super powers at that point in way lessens the tragedy of what's going on.

[The Mirrorball Man]

It was no Schindler's List, but he movie clearly makes out that what's going on in those camps is a horrible thing. We see parents being yanked away from their child, and there's no doubt that they're being taken to their deaths.

You have a point, but in my opinion, that's not even close from showing how awful it was (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/ccphototoc.html).

[mattx110]

You have a point, but in my opinion, that's not even close from showing how awful it was (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/ccphototoc.html).

pg-13 and not a documentary or historical (nonfiction or fiction) film.

they got the desparation, the bleekness and well, showed as much of the camp as it takes for you to understand what kind of camp it was. if you want more, well, sorry. they probably showed what they could. any more and it would take the spotlight away from wolverine ;)

[Thorlief]

as a jewish myself I don't see any problems with it. Using the Shoah as part of the plot isnt something one should be bothered about. It's not like they're dissing it or something, plus...it's a fundamental part of Magnus' background

[Jared]

On semi related note, I'm pretty sure that Magneto was originally a gypsy*. But since the movie made him jewish (his family had stars of david on their coats), has that since been retconned in the Marvel universe?



*And IIRC, so is Dr. Doom. Which really has to make ya wonder of Stan Lee has an issue with gypsies. :)

[The Mirrorball Man]

On semi related note, I'm pretty sure that Magneto was originally a gypsy*. But since the movie made him jewish (his family had stars of david on their coats), has that since been retconned in the Marvel universe?


Here's what Wikipedia has to say about that:

"Magneto is Jewish and a Holocaust survivor, though for a while he maintained a cover identity as a Sinte Gypsy while searching for his wife Magda. This created confusion amongst some readers as to his heritage,[14] until it was authoritatively confirmed that he is Jewish.[15][16] This confusion probably stems from a comic book published in the early 1990s which attempted to retcon Magneto into being a Sinte, possibly because Marvel was preparing to make Magneto a deadly villain again in the crossover called "Fatal Attractions" and they did not want to draw accusations of anti-Semitism by having one of their main villains be Jewish. This attempted retcon was corrected a few years later when it was revealed that the name "Erik Lehnsherr" and the Sinte ethnicity were part of a cover identity, as mentioned above."

[StoneGold]

On semi related note, I'm pretty sure that Magneto was originally a gypsy*. But since the movie made him jewish (his family had stars of david on their coats), has that since been retconned in the Marvel universe?



*And IIRC, so is Dr. Doom. Which really has to make ya wonder of Stan Lee has an issue with gypsies. :)

Originally he wasn't much of anything. But the Jewish thing pretty much came in with Claremont. Waaayyyyy before the movie.

Here's the FAQ. http://www.alara.net/opeople/xbooks/magjew.html

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about that:

"Magneto is Jewish and a Holocaust survivor, though for a while he maintained a cover identity as a Sinte Gypsy while searching for his wife Magda. This created confusion amongst some readers as to his heritage,[14] until it was authoritatively confirmed that he is Jewish.[15][16] This confusion probably stems from a comic book published in the early 1990s which attempted to retcon Magneto into being a Sinte, possibly because Marvel was preparing to make Magneto a deadly villain again in the crossover called "Fatal Attractions" and they did not want to draw accusations of anti-Semitism by having one of their main villains be Jewish. This attempted retcon was corrected a few years later when it was revealed that the name "Erik Lehnsherr" and the Sinte ethnicity were part of a cover identity, as mentioned above."

Someone from here added that and changed that into the Wikipedia. Sounds like Rikva's perception of it because there is NO SOLID proof whatsoever of Magneto being Jewish over Gyspy.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Someone from here added that and changed that into the Wikipedia. Sounds like Rikva's perception of it because there is NO SOLID proof whatsoever of Magneto being Jewish over Gyspy.

Of course there isn't. After a while, comic book continuity becomes so murky and confusing that it's simply impossible to prove anything.