The Punisher's Popularity?

[TheMadTitan]

Hey guys, I am writing a piece on the Punisher for my course and I am on a section dealing with his appeal. I have looked in general at the appeal of Superheroes and why people may idolise or identify with them. I am know going to look specifically at the Punisher and would love to get your opinions as fans!

What makes the Punisher interesting or appealing to you?

What do you think makes the Punisher appealing as a character?


Any help and/or opinions are greatly appreciated!

[The Punished]

The Punisher acts on all the agression we has reasonable human beings must suppress. He has lost everything that we as humans hold dear and beloved and reacted to the nth degree to abolish all the things both directly and indirectly have taken from him.

I think Garth has re-established the man who has nothing to lose. He wants to destroy all things that took his family from him and that's why he keeps going. Even if they kill him what have they achieved... they killed one man. He on the other hand kills and kills and keeps killing the demons that continue to haunt his thoughts when he is not planning the next killing.

I mean I find it interesting he is the one character that has one reason for being and he has continued to appeal to the fans for over 20 years. You have to ask yourself how many ways can one man be written to kill the mob? That and he has been doing in multiple titles, ie, the Punisher, the Punisher War Journal, and the Punisher War Zone.

I feared back in the 90s the flooding the market with all those titles would destroy the Punisher but I now recognize its all in the ability of the creative team to convey the pain, the anguish, the anger, the bile that we feel so fervantly when something mean and evil happens to us or people we know. Ennis should be allowed to write the Punisher for as long as he wants to in any manner he wants to...

[Schutzy86]

The Punisher has always been my favorite comic because of the fact that he is a hero(well an anti-hero at that). Notice the word hero did not have a super in front of it. Frank Castle has no super ability, no healing factor, and he surely can't stop bullets. Frank Castle is proof that regular people can protect you from badmen, and not just some guy in a cape or suit of armor. Not to mention the absurdity of super villions who keep getting locked up instead of shot.

The character of the Punisher will always give justice that is the Ying to Captain America's Yang. The notion that Bad men deserve to die is something that every person on this earth feels at some level, and the Punisher is that dark voice in your soul that would see it done, and won't stop till all those bad men pay.

[StoneGold]

He has one of the better costumes in comics, and he allows readers to indulge in some of their baser instincts. Basically, he's simple. Simple costume design, simple story structure. He kills criminals. Not much moral ambiguity. Not much soul-searching anguish.

[pimp1911]

When you can wear white gogo boots and hang outside a window with a bazooka. Your the man.

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/vol/4000/3855/3855-28343-1-punisher-the_400.jpg

[TheMadTitan]

Hey Guys thanks for all of your replies and opinions I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. You have all helped greatly!! Pimp 1911 love that reasoning definatly agree lol :p .

[Deep_Sleeper]

I like how he has no values that he holds sacred that would prevent him from doing things that a normal human being would never do. A man with nothing ot lose. He can go on a suicide run and he couldn't care less about it.

It's very...liberating.

[RangerNec]

He does in a fantasy book what a lot of us wish would happen in real life. He takes out the vilest criminals (well second vilest if you count politicians) in our society. He does what the cops can't and won't do.

[It Is Inevitable]

When you can wear white gogo boots and hang outside a window with a bazooka. Your the man.

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/vol/4000/3855/3855-28343-1-punisher-the_400.jpg

And he's getting ready to blast Jimmy Hendrix with that Bazooka, more points for Castle!

[The Ray]

You can write crime stories with the Punisher.

[Slammed]

Punisher Born is an interesting story to read in this regard, it sheds a different light on Frank Castle. As opposed to being a product of circumstance and his enviroment, Castle is showed as having made his choices to become what he is. He took "Death's offer" to become what he is, knowing there was a price (his family). Was somewhat different to read it compared to the whole "tormented revenge driven" Punisher.

[Dr. Chaos]

In a world where psychopathic villains tend to always escape at the mercy of others to terrorize and murder, Frank Castle does what is ultimately necessary in such a chaotic fantasy world, he puts them down, he kills the bastards. A more often than not black and white solution to a morally grey broken down old question.

That being said, his cracked mental state is always there to remind me of us why he's not always the most trustworthy alternative, his actions during Civil War and the shock that he might have actually tried to kill the Runaways including lil Molly Hayes to name a few recent incidents.

[TheMadTitan]

Awesome responses guys. Thanks for the detail in your replies and opinions they really give weight to my work and re-inforce my own feelings about the character.

The Ray, thats an interesting point. I am using a lot of stuff from 'Seduction of the Innocent' as a counter criticism so its great you raised that point!

What did Jimmy Hendrix do :confused: :p

[Karl H]

I really really dislike the Punisher - I always have. Maybe its because I'm British and we have much tighter gun control laws etc but the idea of Superheros who use guns has never been high on my list of things I like to see (I'm also a big Batman fan).

In some ways, Frank Castle is the Anti-Wayne. A similar tragedy occured at a different point in life. Bruce Wayne was an innocent when his parents were killed and he took these almost innocent ideals into his crusade on crime. Frank Castle was different. He was a war vet, an individual with experience of guns and he took his crusade differently.

I'm really anti-killing personally. I read the Civil War tie ins and enjoyed them although they weren't great and dropped War Journal after the 'bar' issue.

To me the Punisher is the American dream gone wrong.

[niall mc cann]

Slammed is absolutely right.

Ennis's Punisher is not in any way shape or form as simple a character as people are suggesting here.

He's not a guy who had everything taken away from him and decided "to hell with it, i'm killing everything". He's something much more disturbing since Born (though the seeds were clearly sown in the MK Punisher series).

He's a man who chose to be what he was; in the circumstances he found himself in, that was understandable - to survive vietnam he had to be that thing; the shocking and bewildering part (even to himself, if not especially to himself) about this state of affairs is that he enjoyed this thing he became, and he was without a doubt very very good at his new role.

Therefore, in his efforts to defend his society and his way of life (as represented to him by his wife and kids) he found that he was forced to give up his place in that society - there is no place in Castle's vision of the world for the Punisher. He's necessary to the continued existence of society, but as an external agent of order; he's forever trapped outside it, too disfigured to ever fit back into the place he came from.

What must it have been like on that summer's morning when he held the corpses of his children in his arms and what he felt in his heart, possibly more than the anger or the grief, was relief?

No wonder he does what he does.

[Deep_Sleeper]

I really really dislike the Punisher - I always have. Maybe its because I'm British and we have much tighter gun control laws etc but the idea of Superheros who use guns has never been high on my list of things I like to see (I'm also a big Batman fan).


I think the distinction here becomes that the Punisher, while not initially created with that idea in mind, was never a superhero.

Yes, he was rolled into the superhero genre because, let's face it, costumes sell comics. The thing about the Marvel universe is, from the very begining, Marvel began to offer a more complex view of the term "superhero". Yes, Peter Parker was a superhero, but he was also an every day guy with problems of his own. The Fantastic Four were superheroes, but they were intially a dysfunctional family that got powers. Bruce Banner was a bomb maker who became a time bomb.

There was always a different dimension to the Marvel characters. Yes, they wore costumes, but they weren't always heroes. I loved Stan Lee's idea of the villains of the Marvel universe, that every villain could have been a hero if it wasn't for that one huge flaw.

Frank Miller brought that idea to the forefront. Read the intro by Miller in "Daredevil: Man Without Fear". The first thing he says is "It's a wonder he's not a villain". Here, he outlines what sets Matt Murdock apart from a regular villain, in that, there's an aspect to his conscience that sets him apart from becoming something we would not admire.

The Punisher has always been more of a vigilante, rather than a superhero. I say superheroes are those that save lives and not take them. Wolverine wouldn't be a superhero in my eyes. Punisher wouldn't be a superhero in my eyes. These characters are in a morally grey area that keep them from the distinction of superheroes.

[Karl H]

I think the distinction here becomes that the Punisher, while not initially created with that idea in mind, was never a superhero.

Yes, he was rolled into the superhero genre because, let's face it, costumes sell comics. The thing about the Marvel universe is, from the very begining, Marvel began to offer a more complex view of the term "superhero". Yes, Peter Parker was a superhero, but he was also an every day guy with problems of his own. The Fantastic Four were superheroes, but they were intially a dysfunctional family that got powers. Bruce Banner was a bomb maker who became a time bomb.

There was always a different dimension to the Marvel characters. Yes, they wore costumes, but they weren't always heroes. I loved Stan Lee's idea of the villains of the Marvel universe, that every villain could have been a hero if it wasn't for that one huge flaw.

Frank Miller brought that idea to the forefront. Read the intro by Miller in "Daredevil: Man Without Fear". The first thing he says is "It's a wonder he's not a villain". Here, he outlines what sets Matt Murdock apart from a regular villain, in that, there's an aspect to his conscience that sets him apart from becoming something we would not admire.

The Punisher has always been more of a vigilante, rather than a superhero. I say superheroes are those that save lives and not take them. Wolverine wouldn't be a superhero in my eyes. Punisher wouldn't be a superhero in my eyes. These characters are in a morally grey area that keep them from the distinction of superheroes.


Good points well made. To be fair I used the word superhero more in the costumed vigilante sense but I should have clarified. And for me its that more complex framing of what is a hero that means I hardly read any /dc these days.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

Castle wan a soldier, depending on who tells it an elite soldier. No ambiguity in killing, it's a clear us or them scenario. Some mobsters had the misfortune of killing his entire family in crossfire. So now it's Frank(us) vs. the entire world of criminal activity(them) with a soldiers mindset that somebody's gotta go, kill 'em all let God sort 'em out.
but he does do his research to make sure he's got the right targets.

[Deep_Sleeper]

Good points well made. To be fair I used the word superhero more in the costumed vigilante sense but I should have clarified. And for me its that more complex framing of what is a hero that means I hardly read any /dc these days.

It's really too bad that the hey day of the comics isn't happening now. I guess us comic fans wouldn't have the distinction of "already being there for the fantastical stuff from the ground up" that we do. You see a show like "Heroes" and it's WOW inducing to everyone, but us comic fans have been aware of these powers before.

But if the Marvel U. were to be created now, I wonder what some of the characters would be like. I really think that the Punisher wouldn't wear anything resembling a costume. Same with Wolverine, who becomes less of a character every time I see him in a costume these days.

And man, would I love to see what the X-Men would look like if they were created now instead of 40 years ago. I doubt that any one of them would be wearing a costume.

[TheMadTitan]

I really really dislike the Punisher - I always have. Maybe its because I'm British and we have much tighter gun control laws etc but the idea of Superheros who use guns has never been high on my list of things I like to see (I'm also a big Batman fan).

In some ways, Frank Castle is the Anti-Wayne. A similar tragedy occured at a different point in life. Bruce Wayne was an innocent when his parents were killed and he took these almost innocent ideals into his crusade on crime. Frank Castle was different. He was a war vet, an individual with experience of guns and he took his crusade differently.

I'm really anti-killing personally. I read the Civil War tie ins and enjoyed them although they weren't great and dropped War Journal after the 'bar' issue.

To me the Punisher is the American dream gone wrong.

Cool to get the anti-pnisher stance as well melonhead, glad you raised the 'American dream gone wrong' idea as I am mentioning in my criticism that the Punisher is kind of a hrash commentary on the 2nd ammendment.

Nice to see all of the opinions and angles that are being covered! Deep_Sleeper I think that most of the MArvel universe may not use 'costumes' as we know them if they were created now. What about Captain America? would he stay wearing the flag, or be dressed in more milatary attire?

[Karl H]

Cool to get the anti-pnisher stance as well melonhead, glad you raised the 'American dream gone wrong' idea as I am mentioning in my criticism that the Punisher is kind of a hrash commentary on the 2nd ammendment.

Nice to see all of the opinions and angles that are being covered! Deep_Sleeper I think that most of the MArvel universe may not use 'costumes' as we know them if they were created now. What about Captain America? would he stay wearing the flag, or be dressed in more milatary attire?

well that's an interesting one.

He'd either be like Ultimate Cap or, like when Kurt Angle first came into the WWE. That was really odd for me as an non-american, actually watching people boo someone in their flag and a very clever spin on things (well by WWE standards).

[Daouda]

The first Marvel Comic proper, Fantastic Four #1, the main characters pointedly didn't wear costumes. Stan and Jack thought it was more mature, realistic and just plain better that Reed and co. wear regular attire. Lee relates that it was the comicbook fans that demanded costumes.

This was in 1961! Reading some post, you'd think those same fans are alive now.:D

Punisher is not a 'superhero'. He is the reason why vigilantism is illegal. I've enjoyed many a solo Punisher tale but I'm uncomfortable when it is written that he is accepted in the superhero community. Murder is just too easy and final to be generally socially acceptable.


I love Marvel's type of diverse characters however.:)


Excelsior!

Daoud

[Deep_Sleeper]

Nice to see all of the opinions and angles that are being covered! Deep_Sleeper I think that most of the MArvel universe may not use 'costumes' as we know them if they were created now. What about Captain America? would he stay wearing the flag, or be dressed in more milatary attire?


My thinking is, costumes make sense in certain situation. There's a reason why Batman wears a costume. There's a reason why Superman wears a costume. There's no reason for Wolverine to wear a costume, save the fact that he was rolled into the superhero group when he was created.

Captain America wearing a costume makes sense. When he was first created, no one was meant to know his identity. The same would apply now. He was, in many ways, the icon that represents the American dream. No one man can own that title. Cap would have to be annonymous to be able to do that. I think, no he wouldn't wear the buccaneer boots, but the costume would remain intact. Yeah, his costume would probably look more like the Ultimates get up rather than what we're used to.

With registration being the law in the Marvel U., I can just imagine many super powered people choosing to not wear costumes and act as good samaritans in regular clothings, using their powers to save lives, but without costumes.

[IdiotGod]

i don't like Ennis' take on Punisher or any of the other pseudo-supernatural gibberish some writers ahve tried to pin on him.

the Punisher was not created in Vietnam. he was created because hiw family was gunned down and society failed to do justice.

it's not anything about surviving as the whole "Death's offer" in Punisher Born shows it as. it's a logical mission to rid the world of crime that the world won't get rid of on its ow.

Garth has done a lot of things wrong with Punisher.

[overcomebyfumes]

I like the Punisher because he is probably the character who most closely resembles the old two-fisted Pulp crimefighters of the twenties and thirties. Except with much more cussing.

There was no comics code back then, and a lot of those pulps got away with featuring an appalling level of violence. Frank Castle carries on that ageless tradition of grinding mobster's faces into the broken glass of justice. Not namby-pamby "legal" justice, but manly, reeking of fear, piss, and cordite, fist-through-the-nose-pushing-the-cartilage-into-the-brain justice.

To me, the Punisher is an update of a very old character type, perhaps a quintessentially American one (our British friend rased the point that the character may not translate well across cultures). The guy that gives the criminals exactly what they deserve.

And even if rate of violent crime has drastically dropped since the twenties and thirties (it has), the desire is still there to see justice done the old fashoned way -- with a man's own two hands. And a small armory. And maybe some high explosives.

-------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT - something I just thought of that relates to this. It's interesting that the Punisher is the only Marvel character that exists outside of the sliding time scale. He is a Vietnam vet, always was a Vietnam vet, always will be a Vietnam vet. In the current MAX series, he's drawn to look like he's in his late fifties, about the age he should be if he actually had been in Vietnam. The archetype is timeless, but the character is the most firmly anchored in time of any Marvel character. Curious.

The only other character this anchored to a time period is Captian America and World War Two. But the time of Cap's modern defrosting keeps getting shifted forward as the sliding time scale takes effect.

EDIT II - Hey! Seven hundred and seventy seventh post! Yea me!

pax.

[zuludelta]

i don't like Ennis' take on Punisher or any of the other pseudo-supernatural gibberish some writers ahve tried to pin on him.

the Punisher was not created in Vietnam. he was created because hiw family was gunned down and society failed to do justice.

it's not anything about surviving as the whole "Death's offer" in Punisher Born shows it as. it's a logical mission to rid the world of crime that the world won't get rid of on its ow.

Garth has done a lot of things wrong with Punisher.

I think you mis-read Punisher: Born... "Death" (the voice in Castle's mind) wasn't literally intended to be a representation of death, it was a metaphor for Castle's creeping homicidal insanity that would eventually lead him to become the Punisher.

There are a lot of problems with the original story that the Punisher was purely a by-product of the mob's murder of his family. Primary among these problems is that a Frank Castle motivated solely by a need to see justice done would be fairly one-dimensional and boring (as he has been for stretches in his history), not to mention that his brutally murderous methods seem to run counter to the notion of justice. Besides, if he were in it solely for retribution and not much else, why would he keep going on killing criminals decades after his family's death (unless you're willing to concede that he derives a certain sense of satisfaction and pleasure from killing criminals)? Ennis' explanation is that the murder of Castle's family wasn't the only reason for his psychotically homicidal turn, it was just the final trigger that compelled his complete transformation into something he was well on the way to becoming sooner or later because of a lifetime of accumulated experiences. I think this makes the Punisher a much more interesting character, instead of the old Executioner/Death Wish caricature he used to be.

[IdiotGod]

There are a lot of problems with the original story that the Punisher was purely a by-product of the mob's murder of his family. Primary among these problems is that a Frank Castle motivated solely by a need to see justice done would be fairly one-dimensional and boring (as he has been for stretches in his history),

so having a moral sense of justice is one-dimensional? people in comics become superheroes for fairly idiotic and fantastical reasons. Frank actually has a legitimate reason all readers can appreciate.


not to mention that his brutally murderous methods seem to run counter to the notion of justice.

Punisher has his own ideas of justice. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. why shouldn't he brutlaly murder rapists mass murderers and drug lords? the scurge of the world deserve no pity in his eyes.


Besides, if he were in it solely for retribution and not much else, why would he keep going on killing criminals decades after his family's death

so other innocent families won't be ripped apart by filth? Punisher has and always has fought to "punish" the guilty and protect the innocent.


(unless you're willing to concede that he derives a certain sense of satisfaction and pleasure from killing criminals)?

he does what has to be done. other supes are too chicken shit to kill criminals and the crims ALWAYS break out. Punisher removes their threat forever.


Ennis' explanation is that the murder of Castle's family wasn't the only reason for his psychotically homicidal turn

Punisher was never insane. He was hit with immense grief and loss and adopted a cold heart. that's all. talking to voices in his head to survive is not what Punisher s about and it's never been what he's about.


I think this makes the Punisher a much more interesting character, instead of the old Executioner/Death Wish caricature he used to be.

it dehumanizes everything the Punisher represents. Frank is us. he was a man with a family and nice and happy. they were taken from him and he tried to do teh good thing. to get the men arrested. the law failed and so he concluded he could serve law better with an M16 and a steel resolve.

making him into a lunatic who was made superhuman (yes. that's what it was. he got in touch with that voice and got the "power" to kill the enemy....gay) removes the entire empathetic portion of Frank's story.

[niall mc cann]

so having a moral sense of justice is one-dimensional?

Well, if that's the only aspect we ever see, then yes. yes it is one-dimensional.


people in comics become superheroes for fairly idiotic and fantastical reasons.

You no lie.:D


Frank actually has a legitimate reason all readers can appreciate.

No more than Spidey or Iron Man. Indeed, before Ennis came along, Frank's reasons were significantly less psychologically plausible and morally sophisticated than either of those two heroes, who have two of the best origins in comics, imo.


he does what has to be done. other supes are too chicken shit to kill criminals and the crims ALWAYS break out. Punisher removes their threat forever.

I'm interested in how you dismiss all other arguement with "he does what has to be done". why does it have to be done? it seems to me that there are very good reasons why we don't let people just pick up guns and kill people on the street.


Punisher was never insane. He was hit with immense grief and loss and adopted a cold heart. that's all. talking to voices in his head to survive is not what Punisher s about and it's never been what he's about.

well, that's not true. the punisher was frequently insane, wasn't he? hasn't he more than once gone out executing jaywalkers and ordinary people? I think he has...

Judged against his past history, Ennis writes him as a very rational, balanced guy. he never loses it under Ennis; he never kills in anger (with the possible exception of the time Nicky Cavella desecrated his family's graves). As Ennis writes him, he's a very controlled guy.




it dehumanizes everything the Punisher represents. Frank is us. he was a man with a family and nice and happy. they were taken from him and he tried to do teh good thing. to get the men arrested. the law failed and so he concluded he could serve law better with an M16 and a steel resolve.

Zuludelta already brought up the point; the guys that killed his family are gone, dead and buried. He's still out there doing it. The reason you're giving is not the reason he's still doing what he does.


making him into a lunatic who was made superhuman (yes. that's what it was. he got in touch with that voice and got the "power" to kill the enemy....gay) removes the entire empathetic portion of Frank's story.

well, that's a value judgement you're making. it's never stated at any point in any of Ennis' stories that the Punisher is even mildly superhuman. He survived one crazy, brutal night of butchery in Vietnam (and probably more besides). there's plenty of guys walking the world (this world, not the MU) that can say the same, i'd imagine.

Knowing Ennis' preoccupation, it seems much more reasonable to read Born as the story of a guy who had to surrender to primal forces to survive in a war, only to find that he couldn't extricate himself from them when he returned from it. Straightforward as that, it's a very recognisable story. there's no need to read any supernatural agency into it.

[overcomebyfumes]

There is a fine line between badass and ridiculous. I never read the Punisher in the 90's when he was popular because he always seemed ludicrous to me. Ennis, in the MAX series, has grounded the Punisher a lot more firmly in "reality", and I'm enjoying the stories at lot.

The earlier Knights series ("Welcome Back Frank"), ect, played off the ridiculousness. Frank was shown as this no-nonsense killer, with all these absurd things going on around him. I can see why a long-time Punisher fan would hate these stories, but I found them amusing. The utter badassery of the current MAX series should have redeemed Ennis by now, i would hope.

As for the supernatural element of "Born", I can only recall it having been brought up again once, and in Moonknight, a completely different title. Has it been brought up at any other point since "Born"? Because one way of retconning something is just to simply never mention it again. It's been years. Maybe they've just dropped the whole idea.

pax.

[IdiotGod]

Well, if that's the only aspect we ever see, then yes. yes it is one-dimensional.


well, that doesn't change any because of Born. he's still out for jusitce. he's just out for justice because of the magical voices in his head.


No more than Spidey or Iron Man. Indeed, before Ennis came along, Frank's reasons were significantly less psychologically plausible and morally sophisticated than either of those two heroes, who have two of the best origins in comics, imo.

my family is killed.

i'm left alive and helpless. i try to do something. i try to get the men thrown in jail. but the people who run the "justice" system are as corrupt as the people who killed my family.

so i decide i won't let this happen to anyone else.

vs.

i went insane in Vietnam.


I'm interested in how you dismiss all other arguement with "he does what has to be done". why does it have to be done? it seems to me that there are very good reasons why we don't let people just pick up guns and kill people on the street.

name me one supervillain who was put in prison and never got out to raise hell again/

Punisher is not some random loony on the street. he is rather intelligent with knowledge in several areas. he doesn't just whip out a gun and blast people going "you a criminal! die!" he uses a lot of preparation and study. and by bumping off the crim they can't get out, like ALL crims do in comics, to kill and destroy some more.


well, that's not true. the punisher was frequently insane, wasn't he? hasn't he more than once gone out executing jaywalkers and ordinary people? I think he has...

i've never heard this and it sounds like an internet rumor.


Judged against his past history, Ennis writes him as a very rational, balanced guy. he never loses it under Ennis; he never kills in anger (with the possible exception of the time Nicky Cavella desecrated his family's graves). As Ennis writes him, he's a very controlled guy.

i never realized Frank Castle was known for having temper tantrums.


Zuludelta already brought up the point; the guys that killed his family are gone, dead and buried. He's still out there doing it. The reason you're giving is not the reason he's still doing what he does.

he still does what he does BECAUSE he is still fighting the fight. to make sure no one else goes through the agony he did. he lost everything when his family died. so he resolved to find new meaning in exterminating the vermin of the world. perhaps we can't all relate to that point. perhaps we'd kill the bastards who did it and go back tour happy little lives...despite the fact we couldn't have happy little lives with our families murdered and gone.


well, that's a value judgement you're making. it's never stated at any point in any of Ennis' stories that the Punisher is even mildly superhuman. He survived one crazy, brutal night of butchery in Vietnam (and probably more besides). there's plenty of guys walking the world (this world, not the MU) that can say the same, i'd imagine.

yes because of the voice. he was about to die before his little experience that was supposed to be the first step to becoming Punisher....far as i'm concerned, that was superhuman. he was dead until this magical voice in his head started talking.


Knowing Ennis' preoccupation, it seems much more reasonable to read Born as the story of a guy who had to surrender to primal forces to survive in a war, only to find that he couldn't extricate himself from them when he returned from it. Straightforward as that, it's a very recognisable story. there's no need to read any supernatural agency into it.

except that tapping into "primal" forces" has NOTHING to do with what the Punisher is. that's one man's desperate struggle to survive. not one man's mission to rid the world of crime.

[niall mc cann]

well, that doesn't change any because of Born. he's still out for jusitce. he's just out for justice because of the magical voices in his head.

Oh no, you're wrong, it does change any.

It adds a whole extra dimension to the character that he didn't have before, recast from an ordinary guy on some kind of "holy mission" to a bruised and damaged man who had his whole world torn away from him, leaving nothing but the thing that caused him the hurt. that's a very compelling position to me.



my family is killed.

i'm left alive and helpless. i try to do something. i try to get the men thrown in jail. but the people who run the "justice" system are as corrupt as the people who killed my family.

so i decide i won't let this happen to anyone else.

vs.

i went insane in Vietnam.

That's a semantic game, mate, but even though it's pointless, i'll play too :) :

"My family's been killed! I'm gonna get you crims!"

vs.

In the Vietnam war, faced with a choice between death and survival, Frank Castle chose to survive. only upon his return to america did he realise what that survival cost him; damaged by his experience in the war, Castle no longer has a place in normal society; and the men who stole his last chance at that are going to die...


name me one supervillain who was put in prison and never got out to raise hell again/

Punisher is not some random loony on the street. he is rather intelligent with knowledge in several areas. he doesn't just whip out a gun and blast people going "you a criminal! die!" he uses a lot of preparation and study. and by bumping off the crim they can't get out, like ALL crims do in comics, to kill and destroy some more.

Oh, he's a careful serial killer, and therefore morally defensible, gotcha.

But really, what aspect of that has changed?


i've never heard this and it sounds like an internet rumor.

Nope, it's not. Spidey had to take him down, once, at least. I'll see if i can find out the issue numbers.




i never realized Frank Castle was known for having temper tantrums.

I know you didn't, you just said. I'll look out the issue numbers.




he still does what he does BECAUSE he is still fighting the fight. to make sure no one else goes through the agony he did. he lost everything when his family died. so he resolved to find new meaning in exterminating the vermin of the world. perhaps we can't all relate to that point. perhaps we'd kill the bastards who did it and go back tour happy little lives...despite the fact we couldn't have happy little lives with our families murdered and gone.

Oh, right, the "holy crusade" bit, i forgot.

To be honest, i find that reasoning adolescent. dedicating his life to the cause... serial killers don't work that way, i don't think.


yes because of the voice. he was about to die before his little experience that was supposed to be the first step to becoming Punisher....far as i'm concerned, that was superhuman. he was dead until this magical voice in his head started talking.

mate, what can i say? i never considered hearing a voice in your head that tells you to kill to be a superhuman attribute. It's an all too human weakness, imo.


except that tapping into "primal" forces" has NOTHING to do with what the Punisher is. that's one man's desperate struggle to survive. not one man's mission to rid the world of crime.

And again, there's no such thing as "ridding the world of crime". the crusade you're describing is pathological, and if Ennis was the first writer of the Punisher to realise that, then i say fair play to him. It's enlarged and enriched Frank from a minor supporting character to one of the shining knights of my mental pantheon.

[cactusmaac]

He represents a very Old Testament vision of justice and retribution. If you're a bad guy or even associated with them, you don't get plea bargains, compromises, light sentences, counselling or understanding.

You get a bullet between your eyes for the evil you've committed, no ifs and buts. That black-and-whiteness and lack of moral angst makes the character pretty compelling.

[niall mc cann]

i've never heard this and it sounds like an internet rumor.

You can read it in Essential Punisher Vol. 1.

You can also read about him attempting to murder Spider-man based on (of course;) ) false information in that same book.

[StoneGold]

You can read it in Essential Punisher Vol. 1.

You can also read about him attempting to murder Spider-man based on (of course;) ) false information in that same book.

He had the temper tantrum there, too. The issue of Spider-Man that led into the mini. He freaked out because he didn't want to be ruled insane.

[Trey]

Back on topic, the Punisher is popular because readers can live vicariously through his adventures, he's a badass vigilante, and most importantly he gives readers a sense of black and white. He delivers the ultimate punishment to the scum of our society, unfailingly almost. Its very cathartic, esp in the 80/90's series when crime was much worse. Our world is very complex, with lots of grey areas. Punisher delivers a sense of rightous vengence, where the guilty get punished.

[niall mc cann]

I have to say, the punisher's one of my favourite characters since Ennis got his hands on him; but the reason i feel like that towards the character is absolutely not the reason other people seem to enjoy him; it's kind of the exact opposite, to be frank.

For me, it has nothing to do with him representing a world without shades of moral grey; when i read the stories, Ennis has bucketloads of greyscale in there. It's all centred on the character Frank himself; people claim he judges folks based on an absolute morality that holds no consideration for extenuating circumstances or plea-bargaining, and that's not wrong. But under Ennis, there's always another layer to the guy... he doesn't betray it in his actions or his words, but the hidden spectre of insanity hangs over the man like a raven on his shoulder.

there's a conflict between the sides of Frank castle that's anything but cathartic or absolutist. He's got this terrible drive over which he has very little control, but he's struggling to put it to some kind of use that benefits broader society. When written well, it's incredibly compelling (and a little bit disturbing) to read.

[cactusmaac]

To me, Castle has made the cold and clinical decision to spend the rest of his life on fighting criminals in as uncompromising a manner possible.

He hasn't allowed his mission to make him a monster judging from the odd moments of humanity - such as saving the infected girl in Russia and aiding the poor guy who got cut to ribbons when the Irish bar was bombed - and I can't see much evidence of insanity. At worst you could say he's differently rational and he would probably regard himself as the sanest man alive.

[niall mc cann]

To me, Castle has made the cold and clinical decision to spend the rest of his life on fighting criminals in as uncompromising a manner possible.

He hasn't allowed his mission to make him a monster judging from the odd moments of humanity - such as saving the infected girl in Russia and aiding the poor guy who got cut to ribbons when the Irish bar was bombed - and I can't see much evidence of insanity. At worst you could say he's differently rational and he would probably regard himself as the sanest man alive.

I don't disagree with any of that, it's just that i'd draw a distinction between "rational" and "sane".

i think Castle has a very well rehearsed rational arguement for why he does what he does. I think it's one he believes in completely. I also think that in Vietnam he developed a taste for doing the kind of thing he does, and that is a powerful influence on his thinking, whether he admits it (or even realises it) or not.

I don't believe he kills in anger; i don't believe he kills indiscriminately, as a general rule (those times when he did - and they're not "internet rumours", they happened - i chalk up to bad writing and to creators who didn't understand the character). This is not the same as saying that he doesn't kill for gratification. That suggestion is always present in Ennis' Punisher, right up through the MK title on into Punisher Max. It's never confirmed or denied, and i think that the strongest arguement against it is that Frank seems as aware of it as anyone, but not even he discounts it completely. Not even Frank himself.

Now, call me old fashioned, but i'd always take the position that someone who kills other human beings for personal gratification could reasonably be described as "insane". Hell, i'd use that epithet to describe someone who killed animals purely for gratification.

Ultimately, for me, the terms "incapable of rational thought" and "insane" are not interchangable.

[Clint"TCB"Barton]

I was introduced to the Punisher in 6th grade. I liked him for the same reason I liked Schwarzenegger and Norris films. The whole idea of a one man army taking on the baddies that the police couldn't handle. I was part of that 80's-90's demographic that was all about guns and guys with muscles. I am not into the Punisher so much these days. I do however like what Ennis is doing with him, making his carnage and pathos much more real and disgusting. I for one just don't really have the stomach for those kinda stories anymore. I still dig out my old PWJ's and PWZ's and Armories etc.. have a good chuckle at how ludicrous the whole idea was then. A man who killed anyone who was by his definition "bad". The idea that this "killer" was morally above the criminals he was dealing with because??? Because his family had been killed? Because he was a war hero? Because he had a pretty good feeling that these were all bad people who deserved it? I mean back in the 80's/90's the assumption was that the Punisher knew best(at least by my 13 year-old reasoning). For me I was attracted to the cool costume, the big guns, and the whole "tough guy" theme.

[Premutos]

Never understood the appeal of this character, he's nothing more than a psycho killing people at random, probably cause the voices in his head tell him so (don't believe me, read 'Punisher: Born'; He started going bonkers while fighting in Vietnam)

Yeah, I know he only kills criminals (and people who look like criminals to him), but so what? It's like any other serial killer with a preference, like the ones that only kill prostitutes or children or whatever

Morally speaking the Postal Dude (http://www.gopostal.com), could kick his ass any day of the week, cause at least:

- Has no preferences (kills ANYONE at random, not just criminals)
- Is no hypocrite
- Is way funnier

[Gilda Dent]

I'd read maybe two early appearances before reading "Welcome Back Frank", which was where I became a fan. Because I've been a fan only since Ennis has been writing the character, I don't know if it's the character himself or Ennis' writing that draws me in. Probably a bit of both.

The Punisher is the anti-hero taken to the extreme. He does what is nominally something good--fights crime--while doing it in a manner most traditional heroes would avoid--killing them.

It has a visceral thrill to it, seeing these truly hateful people being destroyed as an indirect result of their own actions.

If he existed in the real world, I'd be appalled, but in the fictional world of Marvel comics, it's somehow a little less objectionable, perhaps because we can see what evil beings the bad guys he kills are.

[Blue Blaze]

I don't think it really matters which Punisher you like the 70s, 80s, 90s, current or 2099. His appeal is that he represents quick justice, is relentless in his war on crime, and is not concerned with popularity, acceptance or political correctness.

Since his creation back in the mid-70s the only characters to rival his appearance output are Spidey and Wolverine... and Wolverine is arguably the closest character to the punisher in type, both have the same general appeal... a hero that will break any rule to serve justice on the bad guys.

If I had to choose a character to be on my neighborhood's Neighborhood Watch it would be Frank or Logan.

[MakeshiftHero]

I've never been a big fan. I like my super heroes being super with the powers and all. A guy with guns doesn't do it for me.

But what I do like about him is that he's the more realistic character in the MU. Plus he's kind of the gritty, hard core, loud version of James Bond/Dick Tracey. And that's pretty cool when you think about it.

But still, I wouldn't care if he were to die, the only reason I would get an issue where he would die is just to sell it years later, and probably read it once. I'm just not that interested in him.