Could/should Marvel create a diverse new universe/imprint?

[EnDwiGast]

Kind of difficult to know how to phrase the question.

Its really two-fold. Whether Marvel should create a new imprint or line of books that sets the foundation for a more diverse super-hero universe & would it be viable.

Why a new imprint? While attempting to diversify the current Marvel U, the only way for that to work -- in my opinion -- would be for new or established characters to work their way into the scene over time. To do otherwise would seem forced & or require the displacement of current heroes. The result is fan bases turning against each other.

DC seems to have tried this recently by killing off current characters and giving them more ethnically diverse replacement. I believe that has not been a successful move because fans of the previous versions were angered by their extermination and in more cases than not, unwilling to give the newcomer a chance.

Both marvel & DC's established universe more or less have an established framework. You can't just plug someone new in and say he or she now ranks up there with the elite. It takes time to establish that kind of credibility within a long running universe.

Now in a new universe, that hierarchy isn't set. It can be whoever you want it to be right from the start. The problem is, and they may be correct in this, that unrecognizable & truly new concepts generally fail. But then again taking an established "brand" and putting a new face on it hasn't proven any more successful.

Over time, the current marvel U will become more diverse, but for those for whom this is a pressing need or issue - marvel would seem to be in the best position to make this happen. Now personally, it isn't a big deal for me as I have more or less become set in who I have an interest in reading about -- though I will pick up an interesting new book if its of high enough quality and doesn't come at the expense of someone i enjoy now. But for the sake of conversation, what do you think?

[Joe Acro]

I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting. Do you want an imprint with it's own continuity? Do you want the characters created in said imprint to somehow merge into the mainstream universe? (If it has it's own continuity, that seems like it'll be hard to pull off.) Do you want the characters created to, in a sense, be legacy characters?

[Expletive Deleted]

You mean a Milestone-style imprint?

Sure, why not?

[EnDwiGast]

I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting. Do you want an imprint with it's own continuity? Do you want the characters created in said imprint to somehow merge into the mainstream universe? (If it has it's own continuity, that seems like it'll be hard to pull off.) Do you want the characters created to, in a sense, be legacy characters?


Well, I tried to leave it open ended for the sake of conversation.

If there is truly a desire for more diversity in the superhero marketplace, then what would be the best way to go about it without alienating current fans.

I'm okay with this happening gradually within the Marvel U. I'd also be interested if marvel put together some top notch talent and created something completely new.

Either way, I personally do not want them to be legacy characters. Maybe something more in line with what Virgin Comics is doing with their new line of comics, only drawing equally from multiple cultures.

[Deus ex Chris]

So basically you want Marvel to create a new imprint, so the original one can remain completely static. That way floundering properties like Wendell Vaughn can retain their status quo. I think I hit the mark here. Right?

[EnDwiGast]

You mean a Milestone-style imprint?

Sure, why not?

While i never read much of milestone, I supported it in principle.

But, like the first wave of Virgin releases that seemed centered on one demographic whereas i'm thinking more along the lines of a multicultural imprint.

For example, i could easily see newuniversal evolving into that.

[EnDwiGast]

So basically you want Marvel to create a new imprint, so the original one can remain completely static. That way floundering properties like Wendell Vaughn can retain their status quo. I think I hit the mark here. Right?

Nope. Completely off.

This is a spin-off of the Black panther-related conversation in the Nick fury thread.

[Deus ex Chris]

Nope. Completely off.

This is a spin-off of the Black panther-related conversation in the Nick fury thread.
Great! I like being wrong on occasion!

As to your actual point, I think another imprint would only work if it wasn't straightfoward superhero stuff because it instantly becomes redundant. Imprints like Vertigo and Max exist for specific purposes beyond existing just for the sake of it, and that would need to be true here.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Kind of difficult to know how to phrase the question.

Its really two-fold. Whether Marvel should create a new imprint or line of books that sets the foundation for a more diverse super-hero universe & would it be viable.

Why a new imprint? While attempting to diversify the current Marvel U, the only way for that to work -- in my opinion -- would be for new or established characters to work their way into the scene over time. To do otherwise would seem forced & or require the displacement of current heroes. The result is fan bases turning against each other.

DC seems to have tried this recently by killing off current characters and giving them more ethnically diverse replacement. I believe that has not been a successful move because fans of the previous versions were angered by their extermination and in more cases than not, unwilling to give the newcomer a chance.

Both marvel & DC's established universe more or less have an established framework. You can't just plug someone new in and say he or she now ranks up there with the elite. It takes time to establish that kind of credibility within a long running universe.

Now in a new universe, that hierarchy isn't set. It can be whoever you want it to be right from the start. The problem is, and they may be correct in this, that unrecognizable & truly new concepts generally fail. But then again taking an established "brand" and putting a new face on it hasn't proven any more successful.

Over time, the current marvel U will become more diverse, but for those for whom this is a pressing need or issue - marvel would seem to be in the best position to make this happen. Now personally, it isn't a big deal for me as I have more or less become set in who I have an interest in reading about -- though I will pick up an interesting new book if its of high enough quality and doesn't come at the expense of someone i enjoy now. But for the sake of conversation, what do you think?

We have the Ultimate Universe. Marvel has way too many Universes to juggle currently. They barely could keep the MAX line going and the main complaints about the MAX Line was all it did basically was give Marvel freedom to have swear words and nudity in comics.

Personally.... why do another line with spins on popular characters ? Why not let Marvel try their hand at a Vertigo attempt since many fans have always wondered why Marvel will never try a Vertigo type line of books. Take for instance.... Dr.Strange. Imagine him in a real out there Occult/Edge line . Like a Vertigo series by someone. Or imagine the Defenders written by a Grant Morrison in a real wild crazy edgey thing.

I'd call the line: Marvel Malibuverse. Yeah its a stupid name but its one they can revisit the Malbu Comics characters like Prime later and use him in a series thats pretty out there.

[Joe Acro]

If there is truly a desire for more diversity in the superhero marketplace, then what would be the best way to go about it without alienating current fans.

I'm okay with this happening gradually within the Marvel U. I'd also be interested if marvel put together some top notch talent and created something completely new.

Either way, I personally do not want them to be legacy characters.
Gotcha.

I think it would be fine for them to establish an imprint or section where the continuity fits within the mainstream Marvel universe, but rarely (if ever) references it. I think the best way to do this would probably be by using neighborhood heroes, which I define as heroes located in small towns or those who choose to protect a section of a big city, and/or by telling tales not limited to the current Earth, such as space tales or Western stories.

[EnDwiGast]

Great! I like being wrong on occasion!

As to your actual point, I think another imprint would only work if it wasn't straightfoward superhero stuff because it instantly becomes redundant. Imprints like Vertigo and Max exist for specific purposes beyond existing just for the sake of it.


True. One of the most interesting aspects of Virgin comics' Shakti line to me is how it draws its inspiration from Indian mythology, art & history. It has its similiarities with superhero books, but is its own thing.

In similiarly creative ways other histories and cultures could be drawn from that could each develop along their own individual direction, while also connecting on occasion when the situation warrants.

[EnDwiGast]

We have the Ultimate Universe. Marvel has way too many Universes to juggle currently. They barely could keep the MAX line going and the main complaints about the MAX Line was all it did basically was give Marvel freedom to have swear words and nudity in comics.

Personally.... why do another line with spins on popular characters ? Why not let Marvel try their hand at a Vertigo attempt since many fans have always wondered why Marvel will never try a Vertigo type line of books. Take for instance.... Dr.Strange. Imagine him in a real out there Occult/Edge line . Like a Vertigo series by someone. Or imagine the Defenders written by a Grant Morrison in a real wild crazy edgey thing.

I'd call the line: Marvel Malibuverse. Yeah its a stupid name but its one they can revisit the Malbu Comics characters like Prime later and use him in a series thats pretty out there.

True. For it to truly justify its own existence it would have to have modern day version of Stan Lees and jack Kirbys who could draw in whole new audiences.

malibu characters are bring wasted, and like newuniversal could be spun off in this direction. But something along more like the Shakti line would be really fresh.

[EnDwiGast]

Gotcha.

I think it would be fine for them to establish an imprint or section where the continuity fits within the mainstream Marvel universe, but rarely (if ever) references it. I think the best way to do this would probably be by using neighborhood heroes, which I define as heroes located in small towns or those who choose to protect a section of a big city, and/or by telling tales not limited to the current Earth, such as space tales or Western stories.

That would also be a great direction to develop a new generation of heroes within the umbrella of the Marvel U whether or not another line of books is created.

[Siddon]

We already have four universes (Adventures, 616, Ultimate, MAX)

[EnDwiGast]

We already have four universes (Adventures, 616, Ultimate, MAX)


True. But aren't they all based on essentially the same characters?

[The Confessor]

For it to truly justify its own existence it would have to have modern day version of Stan Lees and jack Kirbys who could draw in whole new audiences.

I think a new Marvel imprint, set in a brand new universe, with all new characters would be a good thing in theory but the reality is a little harder to pull off.

You mention having a new universe that would suck readers in like the early 60's Stan Lee characters did but there's two problems with this, as I see it. Firstly, you have to remember that those early 60's Stan Lee comics were a) revolutionary in their concept of an on-going, shared 'universe' populated with imperfect heroes (a truly new thing, so therefore immediately compelling to readers). And b) very, very good with some truly interesting & memorable characters. That's a pretty tall order for any creator to deliver. It's a good idea in theory but much, much harder to pull off in real life.

The second thing is that back in the days when Stan Lee created the original Marvel Universe, comics were much more widely read by people than they are today. So, once he'd come up with his great characters and great stories the whole thing kinda snowballed amongst the comic reading public and this helped the Marvel characters to become very well known in a relatively short space of time. Then add to this the fact that the comics were so successful that within a few short years there were cartoons being produced of these heroes on TV and they were being beamed into every home.

These days, with a much smaller comic reading audience in the first place, I think it's much harder for new characters (like the Virgin comics characters for instance) to get a foothold in the public consciousness. The two giants of the industry, Marvel and DC, are essentially trading on their heritage characters these days and have been for years. I mean, sure they launch some pretty successful new characters and DC has it's popular Vertigo imprint but essentially, the bread & butter for both companies is the sales of their flagship, classic characters like Spider-Man & Batman etc, etc. And not just in comic sales, I'm talking about TV shows and movies too.

Without the huge crossover fame of these big 'brand names' to rely on, Marvel and DC would have a much harder time of it in the modern market place I think. I mean, let’s again take Virgin comics for instance. Realistically, no matter how strong or good their comics are, they are unlikely in the extreme to ever have characters that achieve the huge, pop culture mass awareness of characters like Superman or Spider-Man or Wolverine IMO.

Even if you look at the most sucsessful of the smaller comic publishers, like Dark Horse for example, who’ve sold a lot of comics and even had movies made of some of their most popular characters. They've still not made that much of an impact outside comic fan circles. I mean, if I say "Superman" or "Spider-Man" to an average member of the public, those two names will immediately conjure an image in their mind of that particular hero and even their costume. If I say 'Hell Boy' most people are gonna look at me blankly and say "who?".

Now, the reasons why this is are far too varied and open to debate to examine in any great depth here...maybe it's because less members of the public read comics nowadays? Maybe it's because Hell Boy is a much newer character? Maybe it's because Hell Boy is nowhere near as good a character as Superman or Spider-Man?

Whatever the reason, I still think it's very, very difficult to create truly memorable characters that will excite and interest enough of the general public (and by that I don't just mean the regular comic buying public) to make a new universe a true success. It would always remain a niche concept (like Marvel's New Universe imprint) that only the comic buying public would be aware of…and that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’d support it with there hard earned cash.

Phew!! That's my take on it anyway. :) You know, this might just be the longest post I've ever made on these boards.

For what it’s worth, I like what I’ve seen of Virgin comics. :)

[Blade X]

Marvel SHOULD NOT create a new imprint or line of books in order to have more diversity.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Marvel has a number of cool non-white minority characters that are either dead,crippled,depowered,or in limbo. Instead of them creating a new imprint, they should try to use those characters.

Here's a list of SOME non-white minority characters that have not been used recently or are being currently used and who are either dead,depowered, crippled,or in limbo.

Cloak
Midnight Sun
Bishop (although, I hear there are plans for him)
Gateway
Queen Divine Justice
John Wraith
Windsheer
Hub
Shola
Red Lotus
Vibraxas
Maxam
Synch
Skin
Jessie Bedlam
Karma
Risque
the Big Hero 6 team
Askari (sp) the Spear
Silouette
Sunspot
Cecillia Reyes
Maggot
Black Goliath
Debri
Cardiac
Meteorite 2
Photon/Pulsar (now that NEXTWAVE is over, she should be in the AVENGERS)
Jolt
Charcoal (due to legal reasons)
Firebird
Prowler
Battlestar
Joshua X
Casper Cole
Junto
Centinial
Puck 2
Youkon Jack
Thunderbird 3
Murmur
Ax
Daryl Smith
Shard
Jinx (from the short lived DARKHOLD series)
Spyke (from X-Men Evolution, after all, if X-23 can make the jump from the cartoon to the comics, why can't Spyke)
Hector (from the Pantheon)
Shaman
White Tiger 1
Pathway (Laura Dean)
Goblyn
Xi'an Chi Xan
Meanstreak
Krystalin
Cerebra
Poet
Xandra
Earth Sentry
Ladyhawks
Blacklight
Argo
J2
Warp
Coal Tiger
Angry Eagle
Push
Martinex
Friction (New Universe)
Blur (New Universe)
Clarion
Golden Girl
Goldfire
Human Top
Topspin
Sedara Bekut (New Universe)
Shockwave (New Universe)
Voyager (New Universe)
Troublemaker (New Universe)
Potiphar (New Universe)
Timeslip
Aegis
Helix
Red Wolf
Hybrid (he came out many years before Toxin)
Psimon
Rock
Bling
Cardinal/Harrier

I'll update my post when I can think of some more currently unused non-white minority characters.

[antifascist]

Marvel SHOULD NOT create a new imprint or line of books in order to have more diversity.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Marvel has a number of cool non-white minority characters that are either dead,crippled,depowered,or in limbo. Instead of them creating a new imprint, they should try to use those characters.

Here's a list of SOME non-white minority characters that have not been used recently or are being currently used and who are either dead,depowered, crippled,or in limbo.

Cloak
Midnight Sun
Bishop (although, I hear there are plans for him)
Gateway
Queen Divine Justice
John Wraith
Windsheer
Hub
Shola
Red Lotus
Vibraxas
Maxam
Synch
Skin
Jessie Bedlam
Karma
Risque
the Big Hero 6 team
Askari (sp) the Spear
Silouette
Sunspot
Cecillia Reyes
Maggot
Black Goliath
Debri
Cardiac
Meteorite 2
Photon/Pulsar (now that NEXTWAVE is over, she should be in the AVENGERS)
Jolt
Charcoal (due to legal reasons)
Firebird
Prowler
Battlestar
Joshua X
Casper Cole
Junto
Centinial
Puck 2
Youkon Jack
Thunderbird 3
Murmur
Ax
Daryl Smith
Shard
Jinx (from the short lived DARKHOLD series)
Spyke (from X-Men Evolution, after all, if X-23 can make the jump from the cartoon to the comics, why can't Spyke)
Hector (from the Pantheon)
Shaman
White Tiger 1

I'll update my post when I can think of some more currently unused non-white minority characters.

Exactly. There's plenty of minorities to be used, and if a creator wants a minority who is not listed here, he/she should create them and use them ina prevalent role that does not buy into the stereotypes promulgated by society.

I understand the reasoning for creating an minority-based imprint, but on some level, that's racist in and of itself, almost the same as allowing blacks to have their own water fountains. (ovbviously not as evil or insidious) You're engaging in "separate but equal" mentality, and that can be dangerous. Instead of embraCING differences and polyculturalism, we're actually trying to say "ok, you're different. here's your superheroes and your channel and your pop culture and here is ours".

Instead of trying to put ethnicity in its place, why not allow more of the above list of minorities to have a more prominent plave in the 616?

And another issue to consider is the fact that unless the imprint is started by, staffed by, and conceived by minorities, then it's going to miss the boat.

i think the real issue is not "lack of minority characters in superhero comics" so much as it is "lack of minority creators in superhero comics". People tend to create based upon what is best known to them, so white folks tend to create white characters. Sometimes, not through any fault of their own, creators' ethnocentrism and socioeconomic status can show in their portrayal of races other than their own, sex other than their own, and even economic class other than thier own.

What Marvel and DC need to do, instead of having white creators make up or rehash minoritiy characters, is to engage in some kind of a minority talent search. This way, we would wind up with new ethnic and socioeconomic vantanges, which would wine up with more minorites being used, and those minorities being utilized in non-offensive manners.

[Faded]

Marvel SHOULD NOT create a new imprint or line of books in order to have more diversity.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Marvel has a number of cool non-white minority characters that are either dead,crippled,depowered,or in limbo. Instead of them creating a new imprint, they should try to use those characters.

Here's a list of SOME non-white minority characters that have not been used recently or are being currently used and who are either dead,depowered, crippled,or in limbo.

Cloak
Midnight Sun
Bishop (although, I hear there are plans for him)
Gateway
Queen Divine Justice
John Wraith
Windsheer
Hub
Shola
Red Lotus
Vibraxas
Maxam
Synch
Skin
Jessie Bedlam
Karma
***************Risque***************
the Big Hero 6 team
Askari (sp) the Spear
Silouette
Sunspot
Cecillia Reyes
Maggot
Black Goliath
Debri
Cardiac
Meteorite 2
Photon/Pulsar (now that NEXTWAVE is over, she should be in the AVENGERS)
Jolt
Charcoal (due to legal reasons)
Firebird
Prowler
Battlestar
Joshua X
Casper Cole
Junto
Centinial
Puck 2
Youkon Jack
Thunderbird 3
Murmur
Ax
Daryl Smith
Shard
Jinx (from the short lived DARKHOLD series)
Spyke (from X-Men Evolution, after all, if X-23 can make the jump from the cartoon to the comics, why can't Spyke)
Hector (from the Pantheon)
Shaman
White Tiger 1

I'll update my post when I can think of some more currently unused non-white minority characters.

Oh yeaaaaah!!!

Plus there is lovely half Latin beauty WIND DANCER who is currently being impersonated by a CAUCASIAN SKRULL!!!!!!!

'Sides the point, I agree. I think there are a lot of cool minority characters, but none are given the proper push. I think it *could* have to do with competing with the Universe around them, but I think the challenge is what makes every up-and-comer (and returning champ) all the more special.

Plus, I'm just not entirely sure an entirely new universe would be successful.

[The Scribe]

You mean a Milestone-style imprint?

Sure, why not?

DC tried that.

I like this one....MC2. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MC2) ;)

[XPac]

Marvel at one point did create a new Universe with the New Universe imprint under Jim Shooters run at marvel, if that's kind of what you're referring to.

Marvel and DC will both experiment with this sort of thing from time to time. But rarely does this kind of stuff really meet with great commercial sucess. Marvel has a stricter bottom line than DC, so when something like this doesn't do well, it usually gets cancelled. Still, this sort of thing is always fun to experiement with once in a while.

[sinjection]

Marvel SHOULD NOT create a new imprint or line of books in order to have more diversity.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Marvel has a number of cool non-white minority characters that are either dead,crippled,depowered,or in limbo. Instead of them creating a new imprint, they should try to use those characters.


Agreed.


Cloak
Midnight Sun
Bishop (although, I hear there are plans for him)
Gateway
Queen Divine Justice
John Wraith
Windsheer
Hub
Shola
Red Lotus
Vibraxas
Maxam
Synch
Skin
Jessie Bedlam
Karma
Risque
the Big Hero 6 team
Askari (sp) the Spear
Silouette
Sunspot
Cecillia Reyes
Maggot
Black Goliath
Debri
Cardiac
Meteorite 2
Photon/Pulsar (now that NEXTWAVE is over, she should be in the AVENGERS)
Jolt
Charcoal (due to legal reasons)
Firebird
Prowler
Battlestar
Joshua X
Casper Cole
Junto
Centinial
Puck 2
Youkon Jack
Thunderbird 3
Murmur
Ax
Daryl Smith
Shard
Jinx (from the short lived DARKHOLD series)
Spyke (from X-Men Evolution, after all, if X-23 can make the jump from the cartoon to the comics, why can't Spyke)
Hector (from the Pantheon)
Shaman
White Tiger 1

Cloak is my favorite black American character Marvel Comics has created thus far. What I don't like is the way his powers have affected him. Often, he has been drawn with a haggard, evil face. That needs to go. His body is entirely shadow all of the time, while his head remains flesh and blood? That makes no sense. Like Cloak, the character Darkstar - a Russian female - also had access to the "Dark Dimension". She wasn't plagued by a soul-depleting demon. Her body wasn't reduced to shadow.

There are those who might suggest that Darkstar's physiology and other factors were responsible for how her body accepted and adapted to Dark Dimension powers and that is why unlike Cloak, her body remained flesh and blood. I suspect that since creators knew that Cloak - a black man - would be teamed with Dagger - a white woman - and that often, especially while transporting from place to place, Dagger would have to be enfolded inside of the billowing cloak itself, Dagger's white female body would have been in very close contact with Cloak's black male body. How to solve this? Make Cloak's body intangible shadow - the penis included, while allowing his head to remain flesh and blood. What other explanation could there be for having Cloak created in such an odd, senseless and bizarre physical state. What Marvel needs to do with Cloak is give him the ability to make his body tangible or intangible at will. While they're at it, they should eliminate his dependency on Dagger and lastly, stop making his face appear as if it has transformed into a replica of the Green Goblin's mask.

[sinjection]

Here's a list of SOME non-white minority characters that have not been used recently or are being currently used and who are either dead,depowered, crippled,or in limbo.

Cloak
Midnight Sun
Bishop (although, I hear there are plans for him)
Gateway
Queen Divine Justice
John Wraith
Windsheer
Hub
Shola
Red Lotus
Vibraxas
Maxam
Synch
Skin
Jessie Bedlam
Karma
Risque
the Big Hero 6 team
Askari (sp) the Spear
Silouette
Sunspot
Cecillia Reyes
Maggot
Black Goliath
Debri
Cardiac
Meteorite 2
Photon/Pulsar (now that NEXTWAVE is over, she should be in the AVENGERS)
Jolt
Charcoal (due to legal reasons)
Firebird
Prowler
Battlestar
Joshua X
Casper Cole
Junto
Centinial
Puck 2
Youkon Jack
Thunderbird 3
Murmur
Ax
Daryl Smith
Shard
Jinx (from the short lived DARKHOLD series)
Spyke (from X-Men Evolution, after all, if X-23 can make the jump from the cartoon to the comics, why can't Spyke)
Hector (from the Pantheon)
Shaman
White Tiger 1

I'll update my post when I can think of some more currently unused non-white minority characters.

The character Prodigy needs to be placed on the list.

The shoddy treatment of black characters is just one of the reasons why I have sworn off the X-Men and will never purchase another publication featuring their stories again.

Basically, the X-writers portray most black male characters in disparaging ways while pairing the black female characters with their freakish mutant male counterparts.

Bishop is a mutant of tremendous power. The way in which his character has been used to date hasn't really illustrated this.

Synch - I didn't know much about him as he was created during the time I'd chucked the X-Men. From what I know of him, he was basically "Rogue" except that in his case, he didn't have to make physical contact with other mutants to duplicate their powers. He simply had to be in their general vicinity. He was a cool character. The X-writers killed him off.

Prodigy - De-powered. His Asian girlfriend is always admonishing her teammates - including that punk Hellion - to protect David during battle. It's as if the X-writers take some sort of pleasure in emasculating or killing their black male characters.

Then there is Nezhno a mutant from Wakanda. He is able to increase his strength to nearly infinite levels, which is good. But true to the X-writer's seeming vendetta against black male characters, Nezhno isn't able to maintain this state for long and will often pass out because of the strain. His name translates into - "Gentle". The white male characters - some, not all - get powerful psi powers, they're petulant punks, half-cocked and cocky and get names like "Hellion". Black male characters get names that translate into "Gentle" and otherwise limited powers, powers that are dependent upon the powers of others or powers that aren't useful in personal combat.

Meanwhile, the X-writers had Cecelia Reyes and Ororo swapping spit with hairy were-beasts, hairy feral mutants, blue fuzzy mutants, vampires, etc....

On another note, unfortunately, these days "dead means dead" in the Marvel Universe. Unless there is another black character who is able to duplicate the "Pym formula" and have the physical ability to withstand its effect, Black Goliath is gone for good. Shard is gone for good. Synch is gone for good. I'm not sure, but I believe Windshear either died or was depowered. Either way, it's likely he's gone for good and could be resurrected as a white character. I believe Maggot is dead as well. If so, good riddance. It's just like the black male-hating X-writers to create a black male character and codename him "maggot".

[sinjection]

This thread is a spin-off of the discussion began in the Is Nick Fury African Americanthread. The discussion had its genesis in my opinion that had the Black Panther been created a black American in the first place rather than as an African, that black American Black Panther would have had greater relevance to the black American comic book-reading audience and to the American comic book-reading audience as a whole.

The black American Black Panther would have been been more controversial, more exciting, more dynamic, and as a result, would have attracted more attention than has T'Challa, the Black Panther. I believe that character would have survived any difficulties experienced during his early origin years, he would have endured to this day and because he likely would have been extremely popular among black American comic book fans, it is very possible the black American Black Panther would have been integrated into the very popular Hip Hop/Rap Kulture which has been going strong almost since its inception.

This black American Black Panther would have been able to benefit from Hip Hop Kulture in a way no other comic book character of either major publisher could have. This black American Black Panther would have been everywhere, very possibly, on the apparel of Hip Hop fans, in magazines read by Hip Hop fans, in the lyrics of Hip Hop songs and in the consciousness of Hip Hop fans the overwhelming majority of which are white American youth.

The black American Black Panther could have been the most recognizable Marvel character and its most popular and profitable character. It is too late for this type of character. The character would have HAD to have been a black American who would have been the Black Panther for this to work. Creating a diverse new universe would not make it possible for Marvel Comics to realize the tremendous benefits and recognition a black American Black Panther would have been responsible for today.

[sinjection]

Marvel SHOULD NOT create a new imprint or line of books in order to have more diversity.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Marvel has a number of cool non-white minority characters that are either dead,crippled,depowered,or in limbo. Instead of them creating a new imprint, they should try to use those characters.

Here's a list of SOME non-white minority characters that have not been used recently or are being currently used and who are either dead,depowered, crippled,or in limbo.

Cloak
Midnight Sun
Bishop (although, I hear there are plans for him)
Gateway
Queen Divine Justice
John Wraith
Windsheer
Hub
Shola
Red Lotus
Vibraxas
Maxam
Synch
Skin
Jessie Bedlam
Karma
Risque
the Big Hero 6 team
Askari (sp) the Spear
Silouette
Sunspot
Cecillia Reyes
Maggot
Black Goliath
Debri
Cardiac
Meteorite 2
Photon/Pulsar (now that NEXTWAVE is over, she should be in the AVENGERS)
Jolt
Charcoal (due to legal reasons)
Firebird
Prowler
Battlestar
Joshua X
Casper Cole
Junto
Centinial
Puck 2
Youkon Jack
Thunderbird 3
Murmur
Ax
Daryl Smith
Shard
Jinx (from the short lived DARKHOLD series)
Spyke (from X-Men Evolution, after all, if X-23 can make the jump from the cartoon to the comics, why can't Spyke)
Hector (from the Pantheon)
Shaman
White Tiger 1

I'll update my post when I can think of some more currently unused non-white minority characters.

There was a character named Laura Dean, a young black girl and mutant who was a member of Alpha Flight. She was codenamed Goblyn because Laura's fraternal twin sister also a mutant, was horribly-misshappen. Laura Dean could open a portal into an alternative dimension where she kept her twin sister Goblyn hidden for safe keeping. Whenever Laura was in danger, she would open the portal and Goblyn would spring out to protect her sister.

Now as I remember the Laura Dean character, she was a pre-adolescent child with a short afro-styled haircut. She wore a red shirt and blue jeans. Goblyn was a blue-skinned (or blue-furred) mutant creature with a huge head, a fierce face, fangs and lighter blue streaks along the top of her head running down her back. However, if you look at the recently published Marvel Encyclopedia of Superheroes, you will find that Laura Dean is now a teen-aged white girl, her pants sagging in the front revealing a glimpse of her thong panties underneath. What goes on?

I believe this link is for a fanfic story. It is based upon the ORIGINAL incarnation of the Goblyn character. However, in this fanfic story, Laura Dean is said to be 13 years old while I remember her as being closer to the age of 8 or 9:

http://www.ironrodstudio.com/av2000/issue.asp?issueid=1526

[Mister Mets]

Kind of difficult to know how to phrase the question.

Its really two-fold. Whether Marvel should create a new imprint or line of books that sets the foundation for a more diverse super-hero universe & would it be viable.

Why a new imprint? While attempting to diversify the current Marvel U, the only way for that to work -- in my opinion -- would be for new or established characters to work their way into the scene over time. To do otherwise would seem forced & or require the displacement of current heroes. The result is fan bases turning against each other.

DC seems to have tried this recently by killing off current characters and giving them more ethnically diverse replacement. I believe that has not been a successful move because fans of the previous versions were angered by their extermination and in more cases than not, unwilling to give the newcomer a chance.

Both marvel & DC's established universe more or less have an established framework. You can't just plug someone new in and say he or she now ranks up there with the elite. It takes time to establish that kind of credibility within a long running universe.

Now in a new universe, that hierarchy isn't set. It can be whoever you want it to be right from the start. The problem is, and they may be correct in this, that unrecognizable & truly new concepts generally fail. But then again taking an established "brand" and putting a new face on it hasn't proven any more successful.

Over time, the current marvel U will become more diverse, but for those for whom this is a pressing need or issue - marvel would seem to be in the best position to make this happen. Now personally, it isn't a big deal for me as I have more or less become set in who I have an interest in reading about -- though I will pick up an interesting new book if its of high enough quality and doesn't come at the expense of someone i enjoy now. But for the sake of conversation, what do you think?
I think an imprint devoted to creating a more diverse Marvel U is doomed to failure, as it will immediately have negative associations.

Marvel should continue making an effort to introduce new superheroes, and give writers the freedom to create specific details about them (the Silver age Marvel icons were generally generic white people. We rarely saw anything of specific nationalities, upbringing, politics, or religion.) If the new characters are compelling and can support more adventures, than creating a more diverse universe can take care of itself.

Diversity isn't just in gender or race or religion, it's in making sure characters are unique, even heterosexual white guys. I love how Sean McKeever's Gravity brought in a different dynamic by coming to New York from the Midwest.

[EnDwiGast]

I think a new Marvel imprint, set in a brand new universe, with all new characters would be a good thing in theory but the reality is a little harder to pull off.

I agree.

You mention having a new universe that would suck readers in like the early 60's Stan Lee characters did but there's two problems with this, as I see it. Firstly, you have to remember that those early 60's Stan Lee comics were a) revolutionary in their concept of an on-going, shared 'universe' populated with imperfect heroes (a truly new thing, so therefore immediately compelling to readers). And b) very, very good with some truly interesting & memorable characters. That's a pretty tall order for any creator to deliver. It's a good idea in theory but much, much harder to pull off in real life.

Thats where i was hoping this would come in:



What Marvel and DC need to do, instead of having white creators make up or rehash minoritiy characters, is to engage in some kind of a minority talent search. This way, we would wind up with new ethnic and socioeconomic vantanges, which would wine up with more minorites being used, and those minorities being utilized in non-offensive manners.

Phew!! That's my take on it anyway. :) You know, this might just be the longest post I've ever made on these boards.

For what it’s worth, I like what I’ve seen of Virgin comics. :)

And i appreciated your take on it. An excellent break-down of the problems of launching anything new. But i think Virgin is on to something. Draw in some folks from outside the industry, let them draw inspiration from brand new sources and create a fusion of something new. Something that would bring in new readers.

Granted, cross media marketing has not proven to be comics strong-suit. Quite frankly, I don't have any real qualms about the way things are overall today - but i do recognize the need for true growth of the field.

I guess the last thing i'd want to see would be a marvel version of the PC explosion and just thought i'd look and see how much of an issue all this is and what ideas and thoughts people might have on it.

[EnDwiGast]

Marvel SHOULD NOT create a new imprint or line of books in order to have more diversity.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Marvel has a number of cool non-white minority characters that are either dead,crippled,depowered,or in limbo. Instead of them creating a new imprint, they should try to use those characters.

Here's a list of SOME non-white minority characters that have not been used recently or are being currently used and who are either dead,depowered, crippled,or in limbo.
.

There are a number of characters on that list I'd like to see used more often. But I have to say at the same time that there isn't a single name on that list I'd want to see as the star of an ongoing series.

[EnDwiGast]

Now as I remember the Laura Dean character, she was a pre-adolescent child with a short afro-styled haircut. She wore a red shirt and blue jeans. Goblyn was a blue-skinned (or blue-furred) mutant creature with a huge head, a fierce face, fangs and lighter blue streaks along the top of her head running down her back. However, if you look at the recently published Marvel Encyclopedia of Superheroes, you will find that Laura Dean is now a teen-aged white girl, her pants sagging in the front revealing a glimpse of her thong panties underneath. What goes on?


I remember her, but I do not recall seeing this revamp of her that you are mentioning within an actual marvel comic.

I think she's a character who has potential and would like to see her on a title like Runaways.

[Faded]

Agreed.




Cloak is my favorite black American character Marvel Comics has created thus far. What I don't like is the way his powers have affected him. Often, he has been drawn with a haggard, evil face. That needs to go. His body is entirely shadow all of the time, while his head remains flesh and blood? That makes no sense. Like Cloak, the character Darkstar - a Russian female - also had access to the "Dark Dimension". She wasn't plagued by a soul-depleting demon. Her body wasn't reduced to shadow.

There are those who might suggest that Darkstar's physiology and other factors were responsible for how her body accepted and adapted to Dark Dimension powers and that is why unlike Cloak, her body remained flesh and blood. I suspect that since creators knew that Cloak - a black man - would be teamed with Dagger - a white woman - and that often, especially while transporting from place to place, Dagger would have to be enfolded inside of the billowing cloak itself, Dagger's white female body would have been in very close contact with Cloak's black male body. How to solve this? Make Cloak's body intangible shadow - the penis included, while allowing his head to remain flesh and blood. What other explanation could there be for having Cloak created in such an odd, senseless and bizarre physical state. What Marvel needs to do with Cloak is give him the ability to make his body tangible or intangible at will. While they're at it, they should eliminate his dependency on Dagger and lastly, stop making his face appear as if it has transformed into a replica of the Green Goblin's mask.

Well I think its a neat visual.

[Joe Acro]

What Marvel needs to do with Cloak is give him the ability to make his body tangible or intangible at will. While they're at it, they should eliminate his dependency on Dagger and lastly, stop making his face appear as if it has transformed into a replica of the Green Goblin's mask.
Cloak can become tangible or intangible at will. You should note that in Civil War, he was successfully tranquilized in a way that suggested his body was hit.

As for why Darkstar doesn't have the same problem, it's likely got something to do with their powers working differently. One projects the Darkforce, the other contains it.

[Expletive Deleted]

As for why Darkstar doesn't have the same problem, it's likely got something to do with their powers working differently. One projects the Darkforce, the other contains it.On top of which, the idea that all "darkness"-based powers are related is something of a retcon. As originally presented, I'm pretty sure Cloak's powers were not definitively linked to the Darkforce.

[Deep_Sleeper]

Well, I tried to leave it open ended for the sake of conversation.

If there is truly a desire for more diversity in the superhero marketplace, then what would be the best way to go about it without alienating current fans.

I'm okay with this happening gradually within the Marvel U. I'd also be interested if marvel put together some top notch talent and created something completely new.

Either way, I personally do not want them to be legacy characters. Maybe something more in line with what Virgin Comics is doing with their new line of comics, only drawing equally from multiple cultures.

I think I know what you mean. I'm not a big DC reader and I'm not really familiar with their continuity, but I'm constantly reading stuff from Wildstorm and Vertigo. Two imprints that are usually always putting out fresh stuff.

I always thought Marvel Knights was the imprint that it seems MAX has become. I thought MAX would be more reality-based, non-Marvel U. stuff. The fact that Marvel Knights has become something of a "special occassion" imprint is cool with me.

I'd like it if Marvel Knights became the imprint for all the stuff that Marvel proper doesn't seem to wanna do. Meaning stuff like Punisher MAX could exist in it, Daredevil, and all the special limited series like Silver Surfer: Requiem or special projects by non-mainstream creators like Joss Whedon or Allan Heinberg would be produced under the banner, freeing up MAX to produce things that Marvel wouldn't normally print.

[Blade X]

The character Prodigy needs to be placed on the list.

On another note, unfortunately, these days "dead means dead" in the Marvel Universe. Unless there is another black character who is able to duplicate the "Pym formula" and have the physical ability to withstand its effect, Black Goliath is gone for good. Shard is gone for good. Synch is gone for good. I'm not sure, but I believe Windshear either died or was depowered. Either way, it's likely he's gone for good and could be resurrected as a white character. I believe Maggot is dead as well. If so, good riddance. It's just like the black male-hating X-writers to create a black male character and codename him "maggot".

The reason why I left depowered mutants like Prodigy and Rictor off the list is because those characters, despite being depowered, are still currently being used. That being said, I think it's messed up that Marvel depowered so many mutants of color when there aren't that many of them to begin with.

The whole "dead is dead" rule doesn't mean JACK any more. When you have dead characters like Colossus,Bucky,and Unus the Untouchable being resurrected the rule is effective immediately null and void. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that they keep all of the non-white minority characters dead.

According to an old issue of WIZARD MAGAZINE, Windshear is depowered, but this has not (as far as I know) been confirmed officially in any Marvel comics. So the decision to depower him (if he was even depowered in the first place) could easily be reversed.

Maggot is indeed dead, but one of his slugs survived. So he MIGHT return in the future. BTW, according to Scott Lobdell (Maggot's creator), the name "Maggot" was NOT his idea. He originally intended for the character to be called "Crux", but he had left the X-books before he could reveal the character's name. The name "Maggot" was the idea of the editors and the creative team that took over the book after Lobdell had left. Lobdell has publicly stated that calling the character Maggot, was a stupid idea. He also originally intended Maggot to be Australian aborigine, not a black South African.

[Blade X]

There was a character named Laura Dean, a young black girl and mutant who was a member of Alpha Flight. She was codenamed Goblyn because Laura's fraternal twin sister also a mutant, was horribly-misshappen. Laura Dean could open a portal into an alternative dimension where she kept her twin sister Goblyn hidden for safe keeping. Whenever Laura was in danger, she would open the portal and Goblyn would spring out to protect her sister.

Now as I remember the Laura Dean character, she was a pre-adolescent child with a short afro-styled haircut. She wore a red shirt and blue jeans. Goblyn was a blue-skinned (or blue-furred) mutant creature with a huge head, a fierce face, fangs and lighter blue streaks along the top of her head running down her back. However, if you look at the recently published Marvel Encyclopedia of Superheroes, you will find that Laura Dean is now a teen-aged white girl, her pants sagging in the front revealing a glimpse of her thong panties underneath. What goes on?

I believe this link is for a fanfic story. It is based upon the ORIGINAL incarnation of the Goblyn character. However, in this fanfic story, Laura Dean is said to be 13 years old while I remember her as being closer to the age of 8 or 9:

http://www.ironrodstudio.com/av2000/issue.asp?issueid=1526

D'OH, I forgot about Goblyn and Pathway (Laura Dean). Thanks for reminding me about them. I already them to my list above.

As for Laura and Goblyn's ages, IIRC, they were both indeed around 12 or 13 years old.

[Blade X]

On top of which, the idea that all "darkness"-based powers are related is something of a retcon. As originally presented, I'm pretty sure Cloak's powers were not definitively linked to the Darkforce.

Cloak's powers are definitely linked to the Darkforce dimension.

[Mister Mets]

Cloak's powers are definitely linked to the Darkforce dimension.
Not what ExpletitiveDeleted is saying..

He argues that when Cloak was first introduced there was no link to the Darkforce dimension, and that such a link was a later development.

[Expletive Deleted]

Not what ExpletitiveDeleted is saying..

He argues that when Cloak was first introduced there was no link to the Darkforce dimension, and that such a link was a later development.Bingo.tenchar

[Faded]

According to an old issue of WIZARD MAGAZINE, Windshear is depowered, but this has not (as far as I know) been confirmed officially in any Marvel comics. So the decision to depower him (if he was even depowered in the first place) could easily be reversed.

He appeared on that giant screen featuring depowered mutants in New Avengers #18(19?).

[Blade X]

Not what ExpletitiveDeleted is saying..

He argues that when Cloak was first introduced there was no link to the Darkforce dimension, and that such a link was a later development.

My bad. He is correct then.

[Blade X]

He appeared on that giant screen featuring depowered mutants in New Avengers #18(19?).

Thanks for the info. I had stopped reading NEW AVENGERS at the time that issue came out showing all of the depowered mutants on that screen.

It's a damn shame that Marvel felt to depower a half black mutant with somewhat unique and original powers.

I find it funny and ironic that a company run and comprised MOSTLY of self proclaimed progressive and tolerant liberals, either allows or demands that many of their non-white minority characters be the ones to be either depowered,killed, crippled,or tossed into limbo. It says a lot about the current Marvel editors and creators, when they allow a character like Shola (who was liked by a number of fans online) be depowered, but allows the white Hellion to keep his powers. As if we don't have enough white characters with telekinetic powers.

[Joe Acro]

As if we don't have enough white characters with telekinetic powers.Just telekinetic powers? The only other person I can think of is Justice.

[StoneGold]

Just telekinetic powers? The only other person I can think of is Justice.

And Vance has got some ethnic diversity to him at that.


Although technically, Vance is a psychokinetic. Which I can only imagine is what they call it when it goes all sparkly blue.

[Cthulhudrew]

What I think would be cool is if they started using Counter-Earth as a backdrop to write some Elseworlds-type of stories (sort of a Vertigo like imprint). That way they could be mainstream, and occasionally crossover with the "real" MU Earth, but still do some interesting experiments and different takes on characters.

[Cthulhudrew]

On top of which, the idea that all "darkness"-based powers are related is something of a retcon. As originally presented, I'm pretty sure Cloak's powers were not definitively linked to the Darkforce.

Same with Vanisher (which was probably the biggest WTF? moment for me.)

[Joe Acro]

And Vance has got some ethnic diversity to him at that.


Although technically, Vance is a psychokinetic. Which I can only imagine is what they call it when it goes all sparkly blue.Psychokinesis and telekinesis are the same thing, at least by some definitions.

[TonyJaymz03]

Marvel should focus on the two imprints they have neglected:Icon and MAX. Icon should/could be Marvel's answer to Vertigo, and with the success of Criminal, I'm suprised they haven't put more books in the pipeline.

Punisher and Wisdom is the best example of what MAX should be: Mature, continuity free, stories based off of current characters. I like how they have Terror Inc. and Foolkiller coming out, but if Wisdom has shone us anything, MAX doesn't always have to be about the badass motherfucker with a gun. It can be about a badass motherfucker with a fairy :-)

Oh, and the Marvel Illustrated Classics should continue, and should be used in schools.

[StoneGold]

Psychokinesis and telekinesis are the same thing, at least by some definitions.

They were always just real specific as labeling it as psychokinesis as opposed to something else.

[sinjection]

Darkforce or no darkforce. Whether or not the darkforce causes different physical effects or mutations to an individual depending upon whether that individual is containing or projecting the darkforce and regardless of anyones' opinion that deforming the features the individual containing the darkforce is a cool effect, there is no reason why Tyrone Johnson, a person who has been nothing but innocent and heroic, should be transformed into some demonic-looking fiend whenever he is in Cloak persona.

In issues #5 - #8 of "The Mutant Misadventures of Cloak and Dagger" - I'm supposing that this is the series where it was made clear that Johnson and Bowen were mutants whose latent powers were unleashed by the chemicals injected into their bodies - Tyrone was captured by a villianous blonde bombshell Renee Deladier. Somehow, she was able to acquire Tyrone's cloak and his powers as a result. She became the murderous villain called "Ecstasy".

Cloak's powers did not transform or deform Deladier's appearance at all. Deladier was not tormented by any "demon of the darkness" during the period she had Tyrone's powers. Now it might be supposed that since Deladier was evil and feeding the "demon within Cloak's darkness" the light of the souls it desired, Deladier was not tormented or deformed, whereas Tyrone who fought against the "demon" might have been tormented and deformed as a result. I'm not buying that.

Deladier's body was not transformed into "living shadow". Instead, the darkforce or whatever it was, formed a mask and provocative costume around Deladier's otherwise nude body. There is no reason I can see - in my always humble opinion - that Tyrone has to be nude for one thing and that his face has to be transformed into that of a hideous demon for another.

I can see that in resisting the hunger for light within the darkness, Tyrone should be dependent upon his friend Tandy for assistance. However, although Tandy can simply disperse the excess light that builds inside of her, she does need to expel that excess energy or else she will suffer. It only makes sense then that the light go to Tyrone who needs it. In the earliest issues, it seemed to me that Cloak was not able to become completely tangible at anytime. He was only able to solidify parts of his body - his fist for example - only through great mental effort. While in the Mutant Misadventures issues, it appeared that Cloak was able to transform from human into Cloak, it wasn't that way initially. Cloak's physiology had changed to the degree that he seemed to be no longer human. He didn't need to sleep. He didn't need to eat. He simply existed as a vengeful shadow, feeding on the light of the souls of his victims. When it became possible for him to transform between human and shadow, his human persona was usually so exhausted that the minute he became human, he went to sleep almost immediately.

Cloak needs to be not as dependent upon Dagger as he is. Although during the history of their many publications, it has been made clear that the two friends have developed deeper feelings toward each other - Dagger professed her romantic love for Cloak in issue #5 of the Mutant Misadventures of Cloak and Dagger - writers of the two have too often made it appear that Tyrone was helplessly in love with a blond white girl who while not completely indifferent to her friend's affections, did not return them and took any and every opportunity to swoon into the arms of any white male who encountered the pair. That needs to stop right now. Cloak's seeming worship of Dagger perpetuates a racial stereotype.

The two characters make a dynamic pair. The way their powers interract makes them unique. There is no reason why - if correctly utilized - they should not be able to support their own solo title - written by Bendis. Keep him away from Cage. It is my opinion that the two haven't been as successful as they could and should be because many white fans are uncomfortable with the pairing. The "they are boring" is just an excuse to shield the true reason why they dislike the book which in my opinion is this. Those white readers can't stand the possibility that black Tyrone could be getting it on with white Tandy. "RoLo" is fine, especially for those white fans who are constantly attempting to "bleach the black" out of Ororo. Rand and Misty Knight is tolerable for many white fans. Some white fans may even have accepted the fact that Cage has married and has a child with white Jessica Jones, but the reason for that is that often, artists draw Jones' face as if she had suffered a mule kick between her eyes.

[sinjection]

What I think would be cool is if they started using Counter-Earth as a backdrop to write some Elseworlds-type of stories (sort of a Vertigo like imprint). That way they could be mainstream, and occasionally crossover with the "real" MU Earth, but still do some interesting experiments and different takes on characters.

Great idea. The black American Black Panther lives!!!! On Counter-Earth that is....

[Blade X]

Just telekinetic powers? The only other person I can think of is Justice.

I wasn't talking about white characters that ONLY had TK powers. Here's a list of white characters with TK powers.

Psylocke (technically, she's white)
Cable
Rachel Grey/Summers
Jean Grey
Justice
Hellion
Psi-Lord

Here are the non-white minority characters with TK powers.

Shola (depowered)
Push
Debri (in limbo)
Psimon and his older sister from the M-TECH WARLOCK (Douglock) series from the late 90's (he wasn't even a mutant and is in limbo).

[BeastieRunner]

Marvel should focus on the two imprints they have neglected:Icon and MAX. Icon should/could be Marvel's answer to Vertigo, and with the success of Criminal, I'm suprised they haven't put more books in the pipeline.


I whole heartily agree with this statement. Criminal is an awesome title while Wisdom and Punisher show how "adult" you can make some mainstream MU characters. I would personally love to see more Icon titles similar to Criminal or anything really in addition to some more MAX titles like Sleepwalker, Man-Thing, Ghost Rider, or Blade. Moon Knight would be sweet as well.



Oh, and the Marvel Illustrated Classics should continue, and should be used in schools.

I teach elementary school and teach evening classes in English Literature at a community college (usually high schoolers as I get a lot of Running Start kids). I use comics a lot to get kids to read and these Marvel Illustrated Classics are a million times better than having my high schoolers or college students watch a dumb adaptation. It even gets this kids into wanting to read more novels and a lot start going to the comic shop after they see how "grown up" and "tight" comics are these days.

I will fight tooth and nail the day I'm told I can't give my kids comics. My schools pay for those now (I wish they'd pick up my pull list :() Comics are great windows into reading and art, I hope someday they can return to their glory days.

Maybe I should write a book about how comic improve kids reading abilities.

[TonyJaymz03]

I teach elementary school and teach evening classes in English Literature at a community college (usually high schoolers as I get a lot of Running Start kids). I use comics a lot to get kids to read and these Marvel Illustrated Classics are a million times better than having my high schoolers or college students watch a dumb adaptation. It even gets this kids into wanting to read more novels and a lot start going to the comic shop after they see how "grown up" and "tight" comics are these days.

I will fight tooth and nail the day I'm told I can't give my kids comics. My schools pay for those now (I wish they'd pick up my pull list :() Comics are great windows into reading and art, I hope someday they can return to their glory days.

Maybe I should write a book about how comic improve kids reading abilities.

comics are how I learned how to read...I was 6ish, my cousin gave me a stash of early 80s comics, and i just devoured them. Then I moved up to those Classic Illustrated books, the ones where one page is the text and the other is an illustration.

I just gave my little cousin an old box of my comics, and he seems to be loving them too.

[Blade X]

I whole heartily agree with this statement. Criminal is an awesome title while Wisdom and Punisher show how "adult" you can make some mainstream MU characters. I would personally love to see more Icon titles similar to Criminal or anything really in addition to some more MAX titles like Sleepwalker, Man-Thing, Ghost Rider, or Blade. Moon Knight would be sweet as well.



I teach elementary school and teach evening classes in English Literature at a community college (usually high schoolers as I get a lot of Running Start kids). I use comics a lot to get kids to read and these Marvel Illustrated Classics are a million times better than having my high schoolers or college students watch a dumb adaptation. It even gets this kids into wanting to read more novels and a lot start going to the comic shop after they see how "grown up" and "tight" comics are these days.

I will fight tooth and nail the day I'm told I can't give my kids comics. My schools pay for those now (I wish they'd pick up my pull list :() Comics are great windows into reading and art, I hope someday they can return to their glory days.

Maybe I should write a book about how comic improve kids reading abilities.

With the exception of PUNISHER and SUPREME POWER (sales on SP were rapidly falling as the series went on, which is why they made the switch to SQUADRON SUPREME), MAX titles DO NOT sell.

And yes, you should MOST DEFINITELY write a book about how comics improves kids reading abilities. Heck, it worked for me when I was a kid.

[Joe Acro]

I wasn't talking about white characters that ONLY had TK powers.I know. That's just me being me.

[The Scribe]

Marvel SHOULD NOT create a new imprint or line of books in order to have more diversity.



A new team with some of the characters you listed lead by Bishop would be interesting. Also, I'd like to see Synch come back.

[sinjection]

The reason why I left depowered mutants like Prodigy and Rictor off the list is because those characters, despite being depowered, are still currently being used.

The last time I saw Prodigy, he was being used alright. Used and abused.

That being said, I think it's messed up that Marvel depowered so many mutants of color when there aren't that many of them to begin with.

We definitely have that "think" in common. Aside from Cloak, Marvel has created only one other black American mutant, the mutant Bling. I'm not sure if she made your list or not. According to Wikipedia, the character retained her powers after M-Day or Decimation Day, whatever it was called. She is supposed to be part of a team formed by Gambit. However, the last I saw of Gambit, he was a Horseman. The only reason I purchased that X-book was because it was illustrated by one of my favorites, Salvador LaRocca. Otherwise, I'd have left it on the shelf.

The whole "dead is dead" rule doesn't mean JACK any more. When you have dead characters like Colossus,Bucky,and Unus the Untouchable being resurrected the rule is effective immediately null and void. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that they keep all of the non-white minority characters dead.

:D It wouldn't surprise me either. What would surprise me is Synch, Shard and Goliath back among the comic book living. By the way, did you know that the original Dr. Spectrum was an African? Kenji Obatu. He fought Iron Man and lost when the Power Prism was destroyed. The original Dr. Spectrum was a villain. The Power Prism reformed but did not find its way back to Obatu. That's a shame. Dr. Spectrum was a cool character. Of course he's still a cool character. He's just no longer a minority.


Maggot is indeed dead, but one of his slugs survived. So he MIGHT return in the future. BTW, according to Scott Lobdell (Maggot's creator), the name "Maggot" was NOT his idea. He originally intended for the character to be called "Crux", but he had left the X-books before he could reveal the character's name. The name "Maggot" was the idea of the editors and the creative team that took over the book after Lobdell had left. Lobdell has publicly stated that calling the character Maggot, was a stupid idea. He also originally intended Maggot to be Australian aborigine, not a black South African.

I'm definitely with Lobdell on this one. Calling the character "Maggot" was indeed a very stupid idea, but not entirely out of character for the seemingly black male-denigrating writers of the X-books.

[sinjection]

Not what ExpletitiveDeleted is saying..

He argues that when Cloak was first introduced there was no link to the Darkforce dimension, and that such a link was a later development.

It wasn't revealed until later that Cloak and Dagger were actually mutants, even though they appeared in multiple issues of the New Mutants, once when Rahne Sinclair and Roberto DeCosta appropriated their powers of "darkness and light". They were in the presence of Professor Xavier himself. Apparently, even with his great mutant-detecting powers, he wasn't able to discern during his encounter with Cloak and Dagger that they were mutants.

[Shellhead]

Great idea. The black American Black Panther lives!!!! On Counter-Earth that is....

For your desktop:

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/GerryTurnbull/2007-04-30_090144_2006-05-16_163732_bicentennial-03.jpg

[sinjection]

D'OH, I forgot about Goblyn and Pathway (Laura Dean). Thanks for reminding me about them. I already them to my list above.

As for Laura and Goblyn's ages, IIRC, they were both indeed around 12 or 13 years old.

I was scanning the web for info on Laura Dean and happened to see an updated pic of Pathway in her Alpha Flight uniform. Not a bad illustration. She was rendered very attractively. She's now a lovely young woman.

I'm not sure what happened in The Marvel Encyclopedia: The Definitive Guide To The Characters Of The Marvel Universe. But on page #76, Dean, Laura is listed. Instead of the Laura Dean/Pathway we're familiar with, the young lady I described earlier is listed. Obviously, there was some sort of mistake. I've read posts by others saying that the Encyclopedia was flawed.

By the by....I believe we need to add Chemistro/Curtis Carr to the list. He was an old Luke Cage foe. Cage also fought a foe by the name of Diamondback...or something like that. Then of course, there was his old cellmates Shades and Commanche. I don't think either of those two will ever make it back. There were two weird Cage foes, both of the overweight variety. Black Mariah and Big Ben Donovan.

[sinjection]

For your desktop:

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/GerryTurnbull/2007-04-30_090144_2006-05-16_163732_bicentennial-03.jpg

:D Hey now! That certainly brings back the memories! I had that calendar. I think I still do. It's probably a bit worn around the edges now.

How ironic. There's a pic of the Panther - an African - leading a party of what looks like Revolutionary War marines into battle. Just think how powerful that graphic would have and could have been if instead of T'Challa, that Black Panther was the black American Black Panther.

[sinjection]

Exactly.
I understand the reasoning for creating an minority-based imprint, but on some level, that's racist in and of itself, almost the same as allowing blacks to have their own water fountains. (ovbviously not as evil or insidious) You're engaging in "separate but equal" mentality, and that can be dangerous. Instead of embraCING differences and polyculturalism, we're actually trying to say "ok, you're different. here's your superheroes and your channel and your pop culture and here is ours".


I think you may have misunderstood. It's not a "minority-based" imprint. The idea is to create a diverse imprint - diverse meaning all-inclusive. It's just that the minority characters would receive equal attention.

The "we're actually trying to say "ok, you're different. here's your superheroes and your channel and your pop culture and here is ours". looks like a variation of the "black Americans have the BET channel, EBONY, JET, KING, SMOOTH GIRL magazines, "black radio stations", etc... All of this is true. Why? Because this is a diverse nation. Though we are countrymen, we are different. This shouldn't be a reason for discord but a cause for celebration and exploration. The cultural differences of the U.S. citizenry is what makes this country so vibrant.

It would be great to see the fine characters Blade X has listed appear in more 616 Marvel publications.

[Shellhead]

I found all my old Marvel calendars last year, when I was packing up for a move. I wish I had found them sooner, because they are periodically re-usable. For example, I have my 1979 Hulk calendar hanging up at home, because everything matches with 2007 except for the year. Next year, I will be re-using my 1980 Doctor Strange calendar.

[sinjection]

I found all my old Marvel calendars last year, when I was packing up for a move. I wish I had found them sooner, because they are periodically re-usable. For example, I have my 1979 Hulk calendar hanging up at home, because everything matches with 2007 except for the year. Next year, I will be re-using my 1980 Doctor Strange calendar.

Cool. I expect the 1776 - 1976 calendar is probably worth a few pennies by now?

[sinjection]

For your desktop:

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/GerryTurnbull/2007-04-30_090144_2006-05-16_163732_bicentennial-03.jpg

If I'm not mistaken, this illustration was by Bob Brown. I believe he used to illustrate the Avengers and maybe Warlock during that period. I liked his style.

[Shellhead]

Yeah, it's gotta be Bob Brown, or possibly Rich Buckler, who did the pencils for part of the Panther's Rage story arc in Jungle Action.

[sinjection]

Marvel SHOULD NOT create a new imprint or line of books in order to have more diversity.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Marvel has a number of cool non-white minority characters that are either dead,crippled,depowered,or in limbo. Instead of them creating a new imprint, they should try to use those characters.

Here's a list of SOME non-white minority characters that have not been used recently or are being currently used and who are either dead,depowered, crippled,or in limbo.

Cloak
Midnight Sun
Bishop (although, I hear there are plans for him)
Gateway
Queen Divine Justice
John Wraith
Windsheer
Hub
Shola
Red Lotus
Vibraxas
Maxam
Synch
Skin
Jessie Bedlam
Karma
Risque
the Big Hero 6 team
Askari (sp) the Spear
Silouette
Sunspot
Cecillia Reyes
Maggot
Black Goliath
Debri
Cardiac
Meteorite 2
Photon/Pulsar (now that NEXTWAVE is over, she should be in the AVENGERS)
Jolt
Charcoal (due to legal reasons)
Firebird
Prowler
Battlestar
Joshua X
Casper Cole
Junto
Centinial
Puck 2
Youkon Jack
Thunderbird 3
Murmur
Ax
Daryl Smith
Shard
Jinx (from the short lived DARKHOLD series)
Spyke (from X-Men Evolution, after all, if X-23 can make the jump from the cartoon to the comics, why can't Spyke)
Hector (from the Pantheon)
Shaman
White Tiger 1
Pathway (Laura Dean)
Goblyn
Xi'an Chi Xan
Meanstreak
Krystalin
Cerebra
Poet
Xandra
Earth Sentry
Ladyhawks
Blacklight
Argo
J2
Warp
Coal Tiger
Angry Eagle
Push
Martinex
Friction (New Universe)
Blur (New Universe)
Clarion
Golden Girl
Goldfire
Human Top
Topspin
Sedara Bekut (New Universe)
Shockwave (New Universe)
Voyager (New Universe)
Troublemaker (New Universe)
Potiphar (New Universe)
Timeslip
Aegis
Helix
Red Wolf
Hybrid (he came out many years before Toxin)
Psimon

I'll update my post when I can think of some more currently unused non-white minority characters.

Three more possibles for the list:

Nezhno (Gentle) - Wakandan mutant who may be depowered now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nezhno

Nekra - Daredevil foe and partner to Mandrill. Albino black female having vampiric features. She would have been an interesting challenge for Blade. She has super strength and invulnerability. The more hate she generates, the stronger she becomes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekra

Black Talon II- The original Black Talon appeared in the Avengers and is responsible for resurrecting Wonder Man from the dead. Today, Black Talon himself is dead, hence, Black Talon II. Both characters are voodoo priests. The first Black Talon was a foe of Brother Voodoo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon_(comics)

This character needn't be added to the list as I believe he is being used (and abused), by those black male-demeaning X-writers. I don't believe there's ever been the black mutant (especially male), the X-writers didn't like. Darwin is another such unfortunate. Darwin is black American and Puerto Rican which makes him essentially the male mutant equivalent of the beautiful Dr. Cecilia Reyes herself a black Puerto Rican. Darwin's powers are interesting enough, but in keeping with the "X-curse of the black mutant male", Darwin's physical appearance makes him appear alien.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(comics)

Of course poor Cecilia didn't escape unscathed either. She has been made to kiss the animal mouth of the Beast/Hank McCoy.

Black comic book fans should have it out with the X-Men franchise once and for all. The manner in which black mutant characters are treated is attrocious.

[StoneGold]

Just think how powerful that graphic would have and could have been if instead of T'Challa, that Black Panther was the black American Black Panther.

Given that it's just an image, not really any more or less. You can always pretend, like with the 1776 Captain America Kirby drew.

[EnDwiGast]

Given that it's just an image, not really any more or less. You can always pretend, like with the 1776 Captain America Kirby drew.

Those were my thoughts too. Its just an image and you can imagine it to be either.

[EnDwiGast]

I think you may have misunderstood. It's not a "minority-based" imprint. The idea is to create a diverse imprint - diverse meaning all-inclusive. It's just that the minority characters would receive equal attention.

The "we're actually trying to say "ok, you're different. here's your superheroes and your channel and your pop culture and here is ours". looks like a variation of the "black Americans have the BET channel, EBONY, JET, KING, SMOOTH GIRL magazines, "black radio stations", etc... All of this is true. Why? Because this is a diverse nation. Though we are countrymen, we are different. This shouldn't be a reason for discord but a cause for celebration and exploration. The cultural differences of the U.S. citizenry is what makes this country so vibrant.

It would be great to see the fine characters Blade X has listed appear in more 616 Marvel publications.

I'm glad you provided this reminder. Diversity, to me at least, doesn't mean exchanging an over-representation of one for an over-representation of another.

Now BET by its existence contributes to diversity, but in and of itself isn't, nor is it meant to. So while another imprint, line of comics etc focusing on another specific demographic would add to the overall diversity of the industry, it wasn't what i initially meant by one new line that is diverse in and of itself.

[sinjection]

I'm glad you provided this reminder. Diversity, to me at least, doesn't mean exchanging an over-representation of one for an over-representation of another.

Now BET by its existence contributes to diversity, but in and of itself isn't, nor is it meant to. So while another imprint, line of comics etc focusing on another specific demographic would add to the overall diversity of the industry, it wasn't what i initially meant by one new line that is diverse in and of itself.

In that case, I believe many white Marvel comic book fans may feel the current Black Panther publication is a step in this direction. Hudlin - a high-ranking BET employee himself - has written stories that have established Wakanda's technological excellence, economic independence, self-reliance and self-sufficiency. "BET Hudlin" is the first writer ever to have the Black Panther - T'Challa or T'Chaka - claim an undisputed victory over Captain America. This might have been the first thing he did that rubbed white Marvel comic book fans in the wrong direction. T'Challa's marriage to Ororo was criticized as a marriage for the Black Panther's convenience and claimed the marriage likely would have never taken place had the two characters not both been black.

White readers seem to be very sensitive to any book featuring a black or otherwise minority character that does not seem to have a prominent or noticeable white character. Angela Del Toro, the White Tiger was almost immediately joined by Daredevil and Spider-man. For many white comic fans, Luke Cage just isn't Luke Cage unless Iron Fist is tagging along. Many white fans who now speak of Priest's Black Panther run as almost "saintly" probably didn't pay much attention to it during its actual existence. Those white readers who did were likely more interested in Everett Ross' impressions of what T'Challa did than they were in what T'Challa was actually doing.

For many white Marvel comics fans, books like Black Panther, Blade, Luke Cage without Iron Fist, Black Panther teamed with Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo and Photon is exactly the kind of "diversity" your question alludes to. All indications seem to suggest that most of those white fans are cool to - not cool with - that kind of diversity.

As for myself, I believe Blade X's list contains characters who are interesting, compelling and exciting. Some have suggested the Cloak and Dagger books were always boring. I disagree. Many of those stories were innovative, imaginative and well-written. The duo encountered street foes and characters as imposing as "Mr. Jip", Doctor Doom and the Beyonder. I suspect it wasn't the stories that turned many white readers off the book. It was the characters featured in the book that turned them off.

As both characters have previous experience stirring up trouble in Africa, I could see Nekra and Mandrill popping up as a challenge for Storm and the Black Panther. It would be just like Nekra and Mandrill who are known for their army of black female warriors, to try to subvert the Panther's own Dora Milaje. There is a wealth of black and minority characters who don't need to be exploited as they have in the past, but fully realized as the exciting characters they are.

[sinjection]

Given that it's just an image, not really any more or less. You can always pretend, like with the 1776 Captain America Kirby drew.

In this case, pretense wouldn't really cut it. A black American Black Panther would have to be actually experienced to be properly appreciated.

[EnDwiGast]

In this case, pretense wouldn't really cut it. A black American Black Panther would have to be actually experienced to be properly appreciated.


Why is that? Growing up there were so many times when i brought my own imagination into the situation. I'd often have no choice but to take what I was given and fill in the blanks myself.

When it comes to a single image, the inability to project the difference you spoke of seems to be either A:an inability to imagine (which i don't think is the case) or B: a desire or need to impose that image in bold lettering upon every single other person looking at that image.

I like it when an image can be whatever the person viewing it chooses it be be for themselves.

[Joe Acro]

For many white Marvel comics fans, books like Black Panther, Blade, Luke Cage without Iron Fist, Black Panther teamed with Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo and Photon is exactly the kind of "diversity" your question alludes to. All indications seem to suggest that most of those white fans are cool to - not cool with - that kind of diversity.That's not diverse. That's just a collection of well-known black characters (save Brother Voodoo). However, they do add to the diversity of Marvel, which I guess was your point.

[EnDwiGast]

In that case, I believe many white Marvel comic book fans may feel the current Black Panther publication is a step in this direction.

I'm not certain why the word white was specifically included there. For one thing, there are a fair number of comics fans, myself included, who don't fall neatly into either category. So what was the reason that distinction needed to be made? (A sincere question,hopefully taken that way)

Hudlin - a high-ranking BET employee himself - has written stories that have established Wakanda's technological excellence, economic independence, self-reliance and self-sufficiency. "BET Hudlin" is the first writer ever to have the Black Panther - T'Challa or T'Chaka - claim an undisputed victory over Captain America. This might have been the first thing he did that rubbed white Marvel comic book fans in the wrong direction. T'Challa's marriage to Ororo was criticized as a marriage for the Black Panther's convenience and claimed the marriage likely would have never taken place had the two characters not both been black.

I haven't seen any exception taken towards the presentation of Wakanda having those qualities. In fact wakanda always seem to have had them - from the very beginning.

Those having difficulty with Black Panther defeating captain America, i can't understand either. They are peers, and there is nothing to prevent Captain America from cleanly defeating Black Panther in another encounter.

I also don't get why people would say there's no way the two could end up together, though his relationship not being an interracial one is unusual in comics these days. What I've seen is mostly that its been rushed - and so for fans of either character, something relatively new is being projected as the way its always been - and thats a bit jarring.

White readers seem to be very sensitive to any book featuring a black or otherwise minority character that does not seem to have a prominent or noticeable white character. Angela Del Toro, the White Tiger was almost immediately joined by Daredevil and Spider-man. For many white comic fans, Luke Cage just isn't Luke Cage unless Iron Fist is tagging along. Many white fans who now speak of Priest's Black Panther run as almost "saintly" probably didn't pay much attention to it during its actual existence. Those white readers who did were likely more interested in Everett Ross' impressions of what T'Challa did than they were in what T'Challa was actually doing.

I'm not sure where that is coming from. White tiger doesn't seem like a good example for me because there wasn't time for readers to ask for the inclusion of white characters. That had to be the decision of the writer or artist -and its arguable whether their inclusion was based on race. As for Cage and Iron Fist, I'm not sure why its so hard to accept that there were a lot of fans who had and continue to have a fondness for their partnership and friendship, regardless of race.

There seems to be a certain degree of assumption as to why readers liked Priests run. Nobody asked for everett k ross, he was included from the beginning and if there's been any fan following for him here or elsewhere, i've missed it. I guess i'm just not willing to dismiss the possibility that readers actually prefer Priest's writing style and/or his approach to continuity. Also, might there also be those who regard Hudlin's current run as "saintly" and be overlooking things now?

For many white Marvel comics fans, books like Black Panther, Blade, Luke Cage without Iron Fist, Black Panther teamed with Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo and Photon is exactly the kind of "diversity" your question alludes to. All indications seem to suggest that most of those white fans are cool to - not cool with - that kind of diversity.


I guess i just haven't seen this. Someone please show me where this has been happening. I'm not talking about a few posters here or there, but by many or most white comics fans.

[antifascist]

I think you may have misunderstood. It's not a "minority-based" imprint. The idea is to create a diverse imprint - diverse meaning all-inclusive. It's just that the minority characters would receive equal attention.

The "we're actually trying to say "ok, you're different. here's your superheroes and your channel and your pop culture and here is ours". looks like a variation of the "black Americans have the BET channel, EBONY, JET, KING, SMOOTH GIRL magazines, "black radio stations", etc... All of this is true. Why? Because this is a diverse nation. Though we are countrymen, we are different. This shouldn't be a reason for discord but a cause for celebration and exploration. The cultural differences of the U.S. citizenry is what makes this country so vibrant.

I feel as though my point is misunderstood. The problem with corporate-mandated diversity, in my opinion, is that it doesn't work. Instead of actually promoting diversity and promulgating new viewpoints, corporate-mandatded diversity instead continutes to propagate the same old stereotypes, but now are able to do so under the veneer of "cultural diversity". Don't believe me, Christopher Priest, Spike Lee, and various other folks have espoused similar viewpoints. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Entertainment_Television#Criticism)

To compound matters, when said cultural entities promulgate these stereotypes, and these stereotypes are aloowed because of said veneer, then non-minorities start to buy into them as well. Young minorities also are exposed to these stereotypes, and start to emulate them, which allows the non-minorities even more leeway to proclaim that the stereotypes are true. This is not just limited to BET, but I would utilize this same brush to paint Maxim, Cosmo, Spike TV, Lifetime, trio, etc.

Why would this be? Well, when the diversity emphasis is thrust forth by corporate interestes, the interest is not and cannot be the idea that diversity in and of itself is a grand thing, but rather, to create markets upon which to push products. So, what is more ideal if you are are corporate CEO? Allow genuinely diverse programming, or to try and pigeonhole the audience into accepting stereotypes?

Well, it's the latter. The former is harder to market products to, it can create a lot of thought that would be antithetical to the consumer goods culture, and it's going to be much more difficult to convince advertisers to purchase this audience from publishers/tv networks because the audience is so varied. On the other hand, if you can get the audience to accept homogenous values imposed upon them, it becomes much, much easier to sell things to them.

Top that with the fact that generally speaking, the money men behind these endeavors are rich white men who have no real interest in extending the influence of minority culture. For instance, in the example of BET, John Malone put up the money to start the network. John Malone is a rich white CEO, and chances are he could not have cared less about extending the rich cultural diversity of America; he was looking to see how much he could get back on a $500,000 investment.

So the problem to me is not ethnoccentric culture being displayed, my issue is with the top-down nature of corporate-mandated diversity. I am much more interested in the grassroots efforts of folks like Rosa Clemente or the music of Immortal Technique than I am in anymore white execs looking to milk another market. I completely concur that what we actually need is MORE self-iniated and self-managed minority imprints, not just in comics, but across the board of popular and regular culture.

So I think you understand now why I would be upset if good 'ol Joe Quesada decided that it was up to him and merry 'ol Marvel to stop the lack of diversity in comics by setting up a special Marvel brand for minorities! Complete with ads tailored directly for minorities!

[antifascist]

I think you may have misunderstood. It's not a "minority-based" imprint. The idea is to create a diverse imprint - diverse meaning all-inclusive. It's just that the minority characters would receive equal attention.

So does that mean, if one were to create an "all-inclusive" imprint, that the racism that has permeated the 616 can continue? I just don;t get it.

Ghandi didn;t argue for just India; he wanted India and Pakistan. King did not argue for an America for blacks and an America for whites, he wanted an America for all.

i want a Marvel universe for all. I don't want to set up a special imprint for minorities to start getting equality, no more than i want Idaho set aside as a spot for minorities to get equality while the rest of the country can continue as normal.

Instead, I demand that all be treated with respect and equality within the social structure that exists.

Keep in mind also that if a special imprint that's "all-inclusive", one side affect is going to be that eventually, that's where the stories on racism and ineuqlaity will go, and if any appear within the confines of the normal 616, then people will start complaining "that's not where this goes, it should go on in Diverso Comics! I don't wanna hear about racism in MY superhero comics!"

And isn't that exactly what we want to get away from?

[EnDwiGast]

So I think you understand now why I would be upset if good 'ol Joe Quesada decided that it was up to him and merry 'ol Marvel to stop the lack of diversity in comics by setting up a special Marvel brand for minorities! Complete with ads tailored directly for minorities!

Here's what i was thinking on the matter.

Its not about stopping a more natural diversification of 616-marvel. Its not about stopping the creation of minority-centric brands.

Its that when a superhero universe becomes established it rests upon certain specific heroes who become the pillars of the structure of that universe. For example the ultimate strongman, chief mystic, etc. Once those archetypal roles have been filled - it becomes progressively more difficult to add members to that pantheon.

So in order for there to be a more diverse pantheon you have to be a.) extremely creative in coming up with new, previously unfilled roles or b.)replace those in the roles now with someone else or c.) start something new from scratch where those roles are filled from the beginning by people of all walks of life.

I'd love to see some new, extremely creative roles created within 616-Marvel. But we're more likely to see new characters either very derivative of existing ones or that attempt to outright replace them. Thats why of the options I mentioned starting from scratch would seem the most expedient way to do it, that would create without having to give to one set of fans by taking from another.

And maybe there are more than just three options.

Marvel has the best capability to launch such a line amongst the players on the board now, but if a wildcard like a Richard Branson of virgin comes along that would be even more ideal.

[antifascist]

I think I am just very leery whenever it comes to corporate-mandated diversity, but I understand where you're coming from on your points. The Milestone stuff wasn't terrible, and in a lot of ways, was very very good.

I would agree that within the 616 that it can be rather difficult to flesh things out due to the archetypes being filled up, so I find it hard to disagree with the nitty gritty of your letter, even to the point where Marvel is probably in the best position to do something about it at this moment, and you're absolutely correct when you say that it's ideal for someone other than Marvel to do it as well.

Let's take the conversation a step further. Let's say Marvel has decided to go with an all-inclusive imprint. (which in all honesty does sound better than "diverse" or "minority-based" or what have you to some degree. Not that those words are bad, but can set people off for some reason)

What should the structure be? How connected should it be to Marvel (office-wise, not universe-wise)? Who would you get to be on it? Should there be a quota on the ediorital staff for minority staff members? How much say over content should Quesada and the Marvel office have?

I am rather interested to hear responses!

[sinjection]

Why is that? Growing up there were so many times when i brought my own imagination into the situation. I'd often have no choice but to take what I was given and fill in the blanks myself.

When it comes to a single image, the inability to project the difference you spoke of seems to be either A:an inability to imagine (which i don't think is the case) or B: a desire or need to impose that image in bold lettering upon every single other person looking at that image.

I like it when an image can be whatever the person viewing it chooses it be be for themselves.

I am not "growing up". I may be in the process of growing in other ways, but I am an adult. I accept comic book fantasy for what it is. However, in the case of the black American Black Panther, no amount of "pretense" or "imagination" will satisfy the curiousity of "what if". Imagining that T'Challa illustrated with a Revolutionary War rifle in hand leading a squad of Revolutionary War soldiers does nothing for me in terms of realizing the answers of how successful a black American Black Panther would have been or if he'd been an "iconic" character or not.

If you and others choose to imagine that leading those Revolutionary War soliders into battle is not T'Challa, the Black Panther but a black American Black Panther instead, cool. If it works for you, that's what matters. Pretending that the illustration depicts the black American Black Panther I've posted about doesn't work for me. I'm reminded of a line of Sidney Portier's in the movie "To Sir, With Love." He said masturbation might feel good but it doesn't produce life. Pretending that illustration of T'Challa is the black American Black Panther will not make the character in that illustration the black American Black Panther.

[sinjection]

That's not diverse. That's just a collection of well-known black characters (save Brother Voodoo). However, they do add to the diversity of Marvel, which I guess was your point.

Actually, the point belongs to myself and to EnDwiGast. EnDwiGast says that his idea of a "diverse new imprint" would mirror what BET is to the diverse U.S. society. BET or Black Entertainment Television is essentially television tailored to the entertainment pleasures of black Americans, usually by black American entertainers. Ironically, I believe BET is "white owned" at the moment. That's how it often goes. A black American founds what is probably the most influential recording studio in the history of modern popular music, Motown Records and eventually, sells what becomes a hugely successful black-created, black-owned enterprise to white buyers.

Anyway, I digress.....

My point was that if Marvel was to follow that idea of "diversity", most white comic book fans would not see diversity. They would see books featuring black characters and would probably be less inclined to read those books. White comic book fans seem to believe Luke Cage is incomplete unless Iron Fist is prominently featured as his partner. Priest's Black Panther appealed to those white readers who claim to have liked the run, because of the presence of Everett Ross and his stupendously stupid running commentary and asinine sense of humor.

So you proved my point as well. When I mentioned the book featuring the Black Panther, Luke Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo and Photon, you didn't see diversity. You saw a "collection" of 3 or 4 "well-known black characters" and one not-so-well-known Brother Voodoo.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Actually, the point belongs to myself and to EnDwiGast. EnDwiGast says that his idea of a "diverse new imprint" would mirror what BET is to the diverse U.S. society. BET or Black Entertainment Television is essentially television tailored to the entertainment pleasures of black Americans, usually by black American entertainers. Ironically, I believe BET is "white owned" at the moment. That's how it often goes. A black American founds what is probably the most influential recording studio in the history of modern popular music, Motown Records and eventually, sells what becomes a hugely successful black-created, black-owned enterprise to white buyers.

Anyway, I digress.....

BET is a joke. Its a bigger joke than anything. People slam the channel for the fact it basically talks about rap stars and rims. Hell just recently people on the boards had a link to Youtube.com where the Boondocks slammed the channel pretty well.

Even if it is white owned the channel is ran horrible. The best part of the channel is the repeats of In Living Color. So yeah thank you Hudlin for giving us fans of that show something to watch.

My point was that if Marvel was to follow that idea of "diversity", most white comic book fans would not see diversity. They would see books featuring black characters and would probably be less inclined to read those books.

You know this how ? How do you know this ? Did you take a poll ? Did you go to every white comic book fan who buys comics and gauge them and what they read ? No...no you didn't. Just like I have no clue what black american comic book fans buy.

White comic book fans seem to believe Luke Cage is incomplete unless Iron Fist is prominently featured as his partner. Priest's Black Panther appealed to those white readers who claim to have liked the run, because of the presence of Everett Ross and his stupendously stupid running commentary and asinine sense of humor.

I speak for a lot of people here on CBR who just are tired of reading this same nonsense over and over . Please stop talking about how we as fans view Luke Cage. You don't know and I don't. Were just tired of hearing it. You have nothing but posts about how white comic book fans see Luke Cage and Iron Fist. You do not know how white comic fans viewed Preist's Black Panther and direction. Just like I don't. Its nonsense to keep saying it. Just because you post it...doesn't make it the least bit true.

Instead of admitting that perhaps it takes a good writer to make a series or character. That it could be a woman, man or anyone as long as the work is good and fans enjoy it...it doesn't matter who or what the characters do. Or how many black characters are in a book. If the writer can tackle them well.... people will read it.

But carry on. You'll odds are keep telling us how the white comic book fans won't reconize the black characters like Cage or Black Panther .

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Marvel should focus on the two imprints they have neglected:Icon and MAX. Icon should/could be Marvel's answer to Vertigo, and with the success of Criminal, I'm suprised they haven't put more books in the pipeline.

Punisher and Wisdom is the best example of what MAX should be: Mature, continuity free, stories based off of current characters. I like how they have Terror Inc. and Foolkiller coming out, but if Wisdom has shone us anything, MAX doesn't always have to be about the badass motherfucker with a gun. It can be about a badass motherfucker with a fairy :-)

Oh, and the Marvel Illustrated Classics should continue, and should be used in schools.

I had forgotten the ICON Imprint. Its the closest thing they have to a Vertigo line. Why not let creators do more creator owned books there or slide books that need dusting off (DEFENDERS ) would be awesome. We could see that team taken in a wild more Doom Patrol , Grant Morrison direction and with no comics code it could be wild.

If anything ICON should be getting more books.

[Joe Acro]

Actually, the point belongs to myself and to EnDwiGast. EnDwiGast says that his idea of a "diverse new imprint" would mirror what BET is to the diverse U.S. society. BET or Black Entertainment Television is essentially television tailored to the entertainment pleasures of black Americans, usually by black American entertainers. Ironically, I believe BET is "white owned" at the moment. That's how it often goes. A black American founds what is probably the most influential recording studio in the history of modern popular music, Motown Records and eventually, sells what becomes a hugely successful black-created, black-owned enterprise to white buyers.I don't believe EnDwiGast's idea was to make an imprint with solely ethnic characters, which is the only thing that could come from a BET-style imprint (and would likely be limited to one ethnic group, which defeats the purpose).

My point was that if Marvel was to follow that idea of "diversity", most white comic book fans would not see diversity. They would see books featuring black characters and would probably be less inclined to read those books. White comic book fans seem to believe Luke Cage is incomplete unless Iron Fist is prominently featured as his partner. Priest's Black Panther appealed to those white readers who claim to have liked the run, because of the presence of Everett Ross and his stupendously stupid running commentary and asinine sense of humor.People, many of which are probably white, are enjoying comics such as Fantastic Four and New Avengers in which black characters are receiving prominence. People were liking Luke Cage just fine without Iron Fist pre-Civil War. You might claim that this is due to the surrounding white characters, but I doubt that's so.

So you proved my point as well. When I mentioned the book featuring the Black Panther, Luke Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo and Photon, you didn't see diversity. You saw a "collection" of 3 or 4 "well-known black characters" and one not-so-well-known Brother Voodoo.I don't see diversity there. Diversity would be like Heroes for Hire, which includes a Tarantula, Shang-Chi, Misty Knight, and, briefly, Orka. Each of those have a different ethnicity. Sure, there are white characters, but that's always going to happen in diversity. Diversity is not a series of comics covering one ethnic group.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

People, many of which are probably white, are enjoying comics such as Fantastic Four and New Avengers in which black characters are receiving prominence. People were liking Luke Cage just fine without Iron Fist pre-Civil War. You might claim that this is due to the surrounding white characters, but I doubt that's so.


I'm a white guy and I'm loving Fantastic Four and Luke Cage in New Avengers so you nailed it. He has no idea about what the white comic book buying fan wants as I don't. We see sales trends and what plays as factors. But beyond it...we have no clue what each ethnic group who collects comics wants or buys as motivations.

[Shellhead]

I would agree that within the 616 that it can be rather difficult to flesh things out due to the archetypes being filled up...


Marvel seems to enjoy killing characters off and then bringing them back. That's two bumps to sales. But what if instead of bringing characters back, they replaced them?

For example, Doctor Strange is the Sorceror Supreme of the 616 dimension. Next time that he dies (and he will, that's just the way Marvel operates), let Strange stay dead, or better yet hang around as a ghost. He can then tutor Brother Voodoo as the next Sorceror Supreme. Maybe that training takes too long, and Baron Mordo grabs the title first. That just makes it more interesting as Brother Voodoo battles from an underdog role to eventually claim the title.

Another example... Marvel has kind of written Hulk into a corner lately. He can no longer function as a hero on Earth, at least not any time soon. Either he goes into a lengthy exile, or maybe they just kill him. I hate to say it, but after reading Hulk on and off for nearly 40 years now, I've had enough. So let some new scientist try to recreate the Gamma bomb (Bill Foster would have been a great choice if not for the events of Civil War) and accidentally become the new Hulk.

[sinjection]

I don't believe EnDwiGast's idea was to make an imprint with solely ethnic characters, which is the only thing that could come from a BET-style imprint (and would likely be limited to one ethnic group, which defeats the purpose).


I won't attempt to speak...or post for EnDwiGast. What I will do is repost excerpts of the exchange he and I had which has given rise to your responses. My post - #62 - was in response to the fine post by anti-fascist who made comment about understanding the desire for a "minority-based imprint", but not being entirely comfortable with it. The following is my response to anti-fascist (all emphasis added is my own):

I think you may have misunderstood. It's not a "minority-based" imprint. The idea is to create a diverse imprint - diverse meaning all-inclusive. It's just that the minority characters would receive equal attention.

From this response, you should be able to see that my understanding of the diverse new imprint was exactly that; diverse. My response to anti-fascist drew a response from EnDwiGast, post #70. I've read it 3 or 4 times and haven't been able to discern if we are saying the same thing and agreeing or if he is telling me that my "all-inclusive" understanding of what he was asking in his central question of the thread was off base. EnDwiGast's response from post #70:

I'm glad you provided this reminder. Diversity, to me at least, doesn't mean exchanging an over-representation of one for an over-representation of another.

Now BET by its existence contributes to diversity, but in and of itself isn't, nor is it meant to. So while another imprint, line of comics etc focusing on another specific demographic would add to the overall diversity of the industry, it wasn't what i initially meant by one new line that is diverse in and of itself.

Analyzing what EnDwiGast posted, it appears that the first paragraph of his post suggests he and I are on the same page. Sentence one of the second paragraph mentions BET. He says that while the Black Entertainment Network contributes to national diversity overall, that the network itself is dedicated to providing entertainment most likely to appeal to a black American viewing audience. There is no disagreement there. It's the last sentence of the paragraph where things get fuzzy. Initially, I wasn't sure if he was suggesting the new imprint should follow the BET formula - which is how I interpreted the statement - or if he was saying the BET formula wasn't what he had in mind with respect to the character of this diverse new imprint which would have been consistent with my response to anti-fascist.

My answering post to EnDwiGast addressed the former interpretation. I thought he was suggesting that the diverse new imprint would feature books directed at black Americans, books directed at whites who would like their books a bit less diverse, books directed at those with a different sexual preference, books directed primarily toward female readers, etc... This thought is a continuation of an exchange EnD and I had in the "Is Nick Fury African American?" thread, posts #336 thru #342.

If you have any question about my interpretation of what this diverse new universe would offer, my response to anti-fascist will provide the answer.

[Joe Acro]

If you have any question about my interpretation of what this diverse new universe would offer, my response to anti-fascist will provide the answer.
Ah. Thanks for that. It all makes sense now. Sorry for the confusion.

[sinjection]

People, many of which are probably white, are enjoying comics such as Fantastic Four and New Avengers in which black characters are receiving prominence. People were liking Luke Cage just fine without Iron Fist pre-Civil War. You might claim that this is due to the surrounding white characters, but I doubt that's so.


I don't doubt that this is true. However, while those books may feature black characters in "prominent" roles, those black characters are still surrounded by and dependent upon the white characters who like it or not, will naturally be perceived as the "higher billed" attraction. The Black Panther and Storm are only temporary members of the FF and there are readers of that book who have posted to this board that McDuffie is "struggling" with the book now and that it is time for the Panther and Storm to make their exit from the book. I agree that it is past time for the Wakandan Royals to return to Africa, but I believe the posts by others suggesting that the Panther and Storm have overstayed their welcome meant precisely that.

Admittedly, I haven't paid much attention to the Avengers since the Civil War started. I didn't follow that story closely at all, only picking up pieces here and there. I read a piece in WIZARD magazine in which Iron Man and Captain America assess the threats posed by individuals they were fighting against. I found it laughable and not easily believed that Iron Man believed Luke Cage was the most dangerous anti-Registration hero. Iron Man's reasoning for his opinion of Cage was that when pushed against the wall, Cage would fight harder than any other ally of Captain America. I remember a pre-Civil War issue of the Avengers in which Cage didn't lay so much as a finger on the Wrecker while the Wrecker pretty much handled Cage like a ragdoll. Cage received no respect in that issue of the Avengers and based upon how easily Cage was handled in that issue, I found it hard to believe that Iron Man considered Cage to be the threat he made him out to be.

These "people" who was liking Cage before Iron Fist arrived, I wonder who they might have been. As I remember it, Cage's publication was floundering until he was teamed with Iron Fist which likely brought more white readers to the "Power Man" publication. Remember, the characterization most white readers have of every black Marvel character has been created by white writers. This is probably why so many white readers have problems with a writer like Reginald Hudlin who writes characters like the Panther, Storm, Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo, Photon...from a lifetime's experience as a black man living in the U.S.

Consider this. White Blues fans often credit white Blues performers with introducing them to the black INNOVATORS of the Blues genre. White rock and roll fans - many who are unaware that rock and roll is another music genre born of the culture of black Americans - say that Elvis and Buddy Holly are responsible to opening their eyes and minds to performers like Little Richard, Chuck Berry and Fats Domino. Today, white Jazz music fans credit performers like Dianna Krall and others with keeping the genre alive and keeping the memory of the black INNOVATORS of the genre burning. At the same time, those fans are excoriating Wynton Marsalis and Stanley Crouch because they insist on reminding the world that Jazz was born of black American culture. eminem is credited with putting Rap music on the map. Before eminem, it was the Beastie Boys who got that credit.

White comic fans relate to Luke Cage through his tie to Iron Fist. White comic fans related to Priest's T'Challa through the "everyman" Everett Ross. Many white comic fans are probably uncomfortable with the team of Cloak and Dagger although interracial couples are largely commonplace these days. And this comment....

I don't see diversity there. Diversity would be like Heroes for Hire, which includes a Tarantula, Shang-Chi, Misty Knight, and, briefly, Orka. Each of those have a different ethnicity. Sure, there are white characters, but that's always going to happen in diversity. Diversity is not a series of comics covering one ethnic group

....suggests you don't have a problem with Heroes For Hire, but have a problem with the lack of diversity seen in the Black Panther, Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo, Photon team up. Let me ask you then. How do you feel about an Avengers roster that boasts Iron Man, Black Widow, Wasp, Ms Marvel, Ares, Sentry? There are other times when the Avengers roster was entirely white. The FF, entirely white. Why should an entirely white team be accepted as the norm while an entirely black team is viewed as potentially problematic?

[sinjection]

Ah. Thanks for that. It all makes sense now. Sorry for the confusion.

As you can see, I'm not done yet.

[Joe Acro]

I don't doubt that this is true. However, while those books may feature black characters in "prominent" roles, those black characters are still surrounded by and dependent upon the white characters who like it or not, will naturally be perceived as the "higher billed" attraction. The Black Panther and Storm are only temporary members of the FF and there are readers of that book who have posted to this board that McDuffie is "struggling" with the book now and that it is time for the Panther and Storm to make their exit from the book. I agree that it is past time for the Wakandan Royals to return to Africa, but I believe the posts by others suggesting that the Panther and Storm have overstayed their welcome meant precisely that.I haven't seen any such comments, but perhaps I just haven't been paying attention.

These "people" who was liking Cage before Iron Fist arrived, I wonder who they might have been. As I remember it, Cage's publication was floundering until he was teamed with Iron Fist which likely brought more white readers to the "Power Man" publication. Those people were the ones enjoying New Avengers before Iron Fist joined the team. Perhaps Cage's solo mag was doing poorly, but as a member of a team, even without Iron Fist, readers seem to enjoy him.

Remember, the characterization most white readers have of every black Marvel character has been created by white writers. This is probably why so many white readers have problems with a writer like Reginald Hudlin who writes characters like the Panther, Storm, Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo, Photon...from a lifetime's experience as a black man living in the U.S.
Hannibal, over in The Buy Pile, just pointed out something related to this. He was talking about how it's hard for writers to create a character smarter than themselves because "you need the character to ideally go beyond what you can conceive." Something similar may be said for people writing outside their area of expertise. Various ethnic characters may not be treated adequately sometimes by white writers (or any writers that aren't from the same ethnic group) simply due to lack of experience. They aren't "writ what they know".
[I]Many white comic fans are probably uncomfortable with the team of Cloak and Dagger although interracial couples are largely commonplace these days. And this comment....I never saw Cloak and Dagger as a couple (at least romantically). I wouldn't be uncomfortable with such a concept, mind you, just as I'm not uncomfortable with Luke Cage having an interracial marriage. I just never saw them as such.

....suggests you don't have a problem with Heroes For Hire, but have a problem with the lack of diversity seen in the Black Panther, Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo, Photon team up. Let me ask you then. How do you feel about an Avengers roster that boasts Iron Man, Black Widow, Wasp, Ms Marvel, Ares, Sentry? There are other times when the Avengers roster was entirely white. The FF, entirely white. Why should an entirely white team be accepted as the norm while an entirely black team is viewed as potentially problematic?
I prefer the Avengers to be diverse in powers, gender, ethnicity, and background. Although, there is a Russian, a half-Kree, and a Greek Olympian on the team you describe. Honestly, though, if a writer needs a certain personality and power combo and there isn't a non-white character to suit that role, they shouldn't be forced to change their team/idea.

I never stated that a black team would be problematic, but merely that it wasn't diverse enough, just as I'll admit that the current Mighty Avengers aren't diverse enough.

The FF, although entirely white, does include Ben Grimm, who is not only unnaturally orange but also Jewish. And given the connections of the characters, them being all of one race makes sense.

[sinjection]

Those people were the ones enjoying New Avengers before Iron Fist joined the team. Perhaps Cage's solo mag was doing poorly, but as a member of a team, even without Iron Fist, readers seem to enjoy him.


I'm talking Luke Cage circa 1972 til he became Power Man and teamed with Iron Fist. I'm not sure, but maybe this is before your time.

Hannibal, over in The Buy Pile, just pointed out something related to this. He was talking about how it's hard for writers to create a character smarter than themselves because "you need the character to ideally go beyond what you can conceive." Something similar may be said for people writing outside their area of expertise. Various ethnic characters may not be treated adequately sometimes by white writers (or any writers that aren't from the same ethnic group) simply due to lack of experience. They aren't "writ[ing] what they know".

Yet, many critics of Hudlin accuse him of writing black characters "too black" when it's very possible white writers weren't writing black characters black enough if at all.

I never saw Cloak and Dagger as a couple (at least romantically). I wouldn't be uncomfortable with such a concept, mind you, just as I'm not uncomfortable with Luke Cage having an interracial marriage. I just never saw them as such.

Cloak's affection for Dagger seemed to be more related to his need for light. However, in Strange Tales #16, Cloak told Dagger that he loved her and then left her before she had a chance to reply. In Mutant Misadventures Of Cloak And Dagger #5, Dagger - who was blinded by a dark energy bullet lodged in her optic nerves at the time and believing Cloak to be dead, was tormented because she never told him how she felt about him. On page #30 of that book, Dagger admits to Cloak - wherever she believes his dead soul to reside - that she loves him as well. The romance never took off because Rebecca "Rusty" Nales, Brigid O'Reilly's partner began making serious moves on Cloak. Seeing Rusty's romantic interest in Cloak, Dagger seemed to back off.

I prefer the Avengers to be diverse in powers, gender, ethnicity, and background. Although, there is a Russian, a half-Kree, and a Greek Olympian on the team you describe. Honestly, though, if a writer needs a certain personality and power combo and there isn't a non-white character to suit that role, they shouldn't be forced to change their team/idea.

The same should apply to any team Hudlin puts together in the future. If he assembles a team that Luke Cage kept referring to as "The Black Avengers" and Hudlin is able to put together a unit of complementary characters, there shouldn't be howls from the "Hudlin is a racist" crowd.

I never stated that a black team would be problematic, but merely that it wasn't diverse enough, just as I'll admit that the current Mighty Avengers aren't diverse enough.

Cool.

The FF, although entirely white, does include Ben Grimm, who is not only unnaturally orange but also Jewish. And given the connections of the characters, them being all of one race makes sense

My understanding is that "Jewish" is a religion, not a race. And excepting those Ethiopian Jews said to be descendants of the offspring of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, every Jew I've ever seen always looked like a white person to me.

In the FF movie, when viewers watched Ben's interraction and attraction to Alica - who happened to be a black woman in the movie - they didn't see a Jewish man with a black woman. Those viewers saw a rocky orange man who had previously been a white man and who was still a white man underneath all the orange scales becoming involved with a black woman.

Although the X-writers have pulled Storm back into their boring storylines, the fact of the matter is that Ororo is now married to T'Challa and Queen of Wakanda. Therefore, if the Wakandan Royals decide to team with Cage - who idolizes the Panther - Brother Voodoo - who is currently living in Wakanda - the Falcon - who owes much to his friend the Panther for designing his first set of wings, then their all being of one race makes just as much sense as an all white FF or an all-white Excalibur or an all-white Avengers.

[StoneGold]

Remember, the characterization most white readers have of every black Marvel character has been created by white writers. This is probably why so many white readers have problems with a writer like Reginald Hudlin who writes characters like the Panther, Storm, Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo, Photon...from a lifetime's experience as a black man living in the U.S.

I only bring issue with this because PRIEST wrote most of those characters in Black Panther and I can't recall anyone complaining. PRIEST also being a black man who has lived (as far as I know) in the US his whole life. If anything, I think Hudlin's BP has suffered criticism just because it was similiar enough to PRIEST's (is he still insisting on the single name, all caps? I remember he was at one point), but for the most part, inferior. At least, that was my take, having read the entire Priest run, including The Crew.

Did Priest just write for white people better? It's possible, although the book didn't seem particularly geared towards them. I guess Ross took a larger role, but he was almost always the patsy, the sidekick comic relief to T'Challa's badass African uber-man. Half the series was Ross getting emasculated by T'Challa. Not that he was doing it on purpose, but just by his very existence.


I think Hudlin really only found his voice, both for the characters and for comic writers in general, relatively recently. His run on BP has improved drastically since Civil War. But I still think Priest was a better writer.

[Joe Acro]

I'm talking Luke Cage circa 1972 til he became Power Man and teamed with Iron Fist. I'm not sure, but maybe this is before your time.It was before me time, but I thought you were referencing something more recent.

Yet, many critics of Hudlin accuse him of writing black characters "too black" when it's very possible white writers weren't writing black characters black enough if at all.I haven't read anything by Hudlin to adequately comment.

Cloak's affection for Dagger seemed to be more related to his need for light. However, in Strange Tales #16, Cloak told Dagger that he loved her and then left her before she had a chance to reply. In Mutant Misadventures Of Cloak And Dagger #5, Dagger - who was blinded by a dark energy bullet lodged in her optic nerves at the time and believing Cloak to be dead, was tormented because she never told him how she felt about him. On page #30 of that book, Dagger admits to Cloak - wherever she believes his dead soul to reside - that she loves him as well. The romance never took off because Rebecca "Rusty" Nales, Brigid O'Reilly's partner began making serious moves on Cloak. Seeing Rusty's romantic interest in Cloak, Dagger seemed to back off.Thanks for the information.:)

The same should apply to any team Hudlin puts together in the future. If he assembles a team that Luke Cage kept referring to as "The Black Avengers" and Hudlin is able to put together a unit of complementary characters, there shouldn't be howls from the "Hudlin is a racist" crowd.He shouldn't just put together a black team to put together a black team. There would need to be a reason. But even assuming there isn't a reason, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that he's racist. However, I can't speak for others.

Side note: Not all those you listed have been Avengers, which makes me think that that title is inaccurate.

My understanding is that "Jewish" is a religion, not a race. And excepting those Ethiopian Jews said to be descendants of the offspring of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, every Jew I've ever seen always looked like a white person to me. Although it's true that Judaism is a religion, those who practice it do belong to their own ethnic group (as religions can be grouped as such). It is also true that many American Jews in media are white, though I honestly don't know if that's a fair assessment of the American Jewish population or not. I do know that Marvel has the character Sabra, who is Jewish and fights in Israel (most of the time).

Although the X-writers have pulled Storm back into their boring storylines, the fact of the matter is that Ororo is now married to T'Challa and Queen of Wakanda. Therefore, if the Wakandan Royals decide to team with Cage - who idolizes the Panther - Brother Voodoo - who is currently living in Wakanda - the Falcon - who owes much to his friend the Panther for designing his first set of wings, then their all being of one race makes just as much sense as an all white FF or an all-white Excalibur or an all-white Avengers.Although Falcon and Cage are currently tangled up in other things, such a team likely would make sense.

Another side note: Excalibur (perhaps save the Genosha one) has always had a blue character.:)

[EnDwiGast]

Let's take the conversation a step further. Let's say Marvel has decided to go with an all-inclusive imprint. (which in all honesty does sound better than "diverse" or "minority-based" or what have you to some degree. Not that those words are bad, but can set people off for some reason)

What should the structure be? How connected should it be to Marvel (office-wise, not universe-wise)? Who would you get to be on it? Should there be a quota on the ediorital staff for minority staff members? How much say over content should Quesada and the Marvel office have?

I am rather interested to hear responses!

Great questions. If its an imprint, you can have a loosely shared universe where individual talents are brought in to do their own thing. Similiar to the Image style of "universe-building." My personal level of interest would be higher in the line as a whole if they followed the path of Malibu's Ultraverse, Valiant, Milestone, etc. where they put together a coherent 'bible' to serve as the universe's foundation. That would take a special cadre of creators.

Either way, I think a new editor for that line needs to be chosen who has the freedom that Joe Q did when he took over Marvel Knights. I would imagine the staff would be composed of people with fresh voices. They would be people who had been in the industry long enough to know how to launch a new series. I think as long as the major demographic groups are each represented by a strong spokesperson, the actual numerical breakdown after that point wouldn't matter so much.

[EnDwiGast]

Marvel seems to enjoy killing characters off and then bringing them back. That's two bumps to sales. But what if instead of bringing characters back, they replaced them?

For example, Doctor Strange is the Sorceror Supreme of the 616 dimension. Next time that he dies (and he will, that's just the way Marvel operates), let Strange stay dead, or better yet hang around as a ghost. He can then tutor Brother Voodoo as the next Sorceror Supreme. Maybe that training takes too long, and Baron Mordo grabs the title first. That just makes it more interesting as Brother Voodoo battles from an underdog role to eventually claim the title.

Another example... Marvel has kind of written Hulk into a corner lately. He can no longer function as a hero on Earth, at least not any time soon. Either he goes into a lengthy exile, or maybe they just kill him. I hate to say it, but after reading Hulk on and off for nearly 40 years now, I've had enough. So let some new scientist try to recreate the Gamma bomb (Bill Foster would have been a great choice if not for the events of Civil War) and accidentally become the new Hulk.

This would be the approach DC recently took. I think sales of a Marvel version of this would end up with similiar sales trends.

[EnDwiGast]

I won't attempt to speak...or post for EnDwiGast. What I will do is repost excerpts of the exchange he and I had which has given rise to your responses. My post - #62 - was in response to the fine post by anti-fascist who made comment about understanding the desire for a "minority-based imprint", but not being entirely comfortable with it. The following is my response to anti-fascist (all emphasis added is my own):

I think you may have misunderstood. It's not a "minority-based" imprint. The idea is to create a diverse imprint - diverse meaning all-inclusive. It's just that the minority characters would receive equal attention.

From this response, you should be able to see that my understanding of the diverse new imprint was exactly that; diverse. My response to anti-fascist drew a response from EnDwiGast, post #70. I've read it 3 or 4 times and haven't been able to discern if we are saying the same thing and agreeing or if he is telling me that my "all-inclusive" understanding of what he was asking in his central question of the thread was off base. EnDwiGast's response from post #70:

I'm glad you provided this reminder. Diversity, to me at least, doesn't mean exchanging an over-representation of one for an over-representation of another.

Now BET by its existence contributes to diversity, but in and of itself isn't, nor is it meant to. So while another imprint, line of comics etc focusing on another specific demographic would add to the overall diversity of the industry, it wasn't what i initially meant by one new line that is diverse in and of itself.

Analyzing what EnDwiGast posted, it appears that the first paragraph of his post suggests he and I are on the same page. Sentence one of the second paragraph mentions BET. He says that while the Black Entertainment Network contributes to national diversity overall, that the network itself is dedicated to providing entertainment most likely to appeal to a black American viewing audience. There is no disagreement there. It's the last sentence of the paragraph where things get fuzzy. Initially, I wasn't sure if he was suggesting the new imprint should follow the BET formula - which is how I interpreted the statement - or if he was saying the BET formula wasn't what he had in mind with respect to the character of this diverse new imprint which would have been consistent with my response to anti-fascist.

My answering post to EnDwiGast addressed the former interpretation. I thought he was suggesting that the diverse new imprint would feature books directed at black Americans, books directed at whites who would like their books a bit less diverse, books directed at those with a different sexual preference, books directed primarily toward female readers, etc... This thought is a continuation of an exchange EnD and I had in the "Is Nick Fury African American?" thread, posts #336 thru #342.

If you have any question about my interpretation of what this diverse new universe would offer, my response to anti-fascist will provide the answer.

Correct Sinjection. The bulk of what I have said here would be along the lines of an all-inclusive line-up of books under a new imprint and creating a fresh universe. A place where someone from just about every major demographic group could pick up at least one book they could more closely identify with on a certain level. That the character of that book was a central and indispensible part of that universe.

For lack of a better term, a BET universe would be better at satisfying one demographic - because it would offer a wider selection. But then, it would leave all of the other underrepresented demographics with nothing new for them.

I would like to add here that gender, ethnicity, culture, etc are points of identification -- but obviously not exclusively so. I would imagine that the majority of comic book readers follow the adventures of a character with whom they share only a few or maybe almost none of the same characteristics with. And they do so without regret because its the artwork or the story that matters to them the most. Or the universal human qualities that individual or group of individuals possess.

The discussions here are geared towards that specific sub-set of readers for whom specific demographic representation is important enough to them on a personal level that its a source of dis-satisfaction when deciding what books to buy & for those who would like to find ways of making these fellow comic book fans happy without having to lose the characters they care about in the process. The win-win scenario.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I don't doubt that this is true. However, while those books may feature black characters in "prominent" roles, those black characters are still surrounded by and dependent upon the white characters who like it or not, will naturally be perceived as the "higher billed" attraction. The Black Panther and Storm are only temporary members of the FF and there are readers of that book who have posted to this board that McDuffie is "struggling" with the book now and that it is time for the Panther and Storm to make their exit from the book.

Really ? Give me a link so I can even debate that here . Because not only is the book awesome its done a great job with Panther and Storm. Thus far I've seen universial praise for Fantastic Four with McDuffie as writer and about the whole "white characters being made the primary attraction" its Fantastic Four after all. Its always gonna be about the family 90% of the time. Everyone will have a reduced role next to the Fantastic Four's primary characters.

I agree that it is past time for the Wakandan Royals to return to Africa, but I believe the posts by others suggesting that the Panther and Storm have overstayed their welcome meant precisely that.

The only one who honestly has posted anything like this is you since I've posted in a few FF threads and not seen it. In fact I called you on it ( BP:FF Thread) and asked why Panther couldn't be in a variety of books and have his solo title concentrate on Wakanda. Which it can .

Admittedly, I haven't paid much attention to the Avengers since the Civil War started. I didn't follow that story closely at all, only picking up pieces here and there. I read a piece in WIZARD magazine in which Iron Man and Captain America assess the threats posed by individuals they were fighting against. I found it laughable and not easily believed that Iron Man believed Luke Cage was the most dangerous anti-Registration hero. Iron Man's reasoning for his opinion of Cage was that when pushed against the wall, Cage would fight harder than any other ally of Captain America. I remember a pre-Civil War issue of the Avengers in which Cage didn't lay so much as a finger on the Wrecker while the Wrecker pretty much handled Cage like a ragdoll. Cage received no respect in that issue of the Avengers and based upon how easily Cage was handled in that issue, I found it hard to believe that Iron Man considered Cage to be the threat he made him out to be.

Back during the brief (really brief) Chuck Austen period Captain America was nearly killed by the Wrecker. The guy did manage to kill a woman who held Cap's shield protecting the fallen hero. Did this make Captain America ..weak ? No he had a bad day and it happens like Cage did. But yeah I agree with what was written...Cage will not be taken down since he's fighting for his family. Even the Bendis issue (24 of New Avengers I believe) where Luke lays it down...he ain't running. He's doing this so his kid can live in a world and know her old man did it without running away.

Plus its Wizard Magazine and its not really the standerd to judge the industry on since they make mistakes and goof shit up.

These "people" who was liking Cage before Iron Fist arrived, I wonder who they might have been. As I remember it, Cage's publication was floundering until he was teamed with Iron Fist which likely brought more white readers to the "Power Man" publication.

Yep...and it also saved Iron Fist who also was floundering with a solo title. So Marvel teamed 2 floundering franchises togethor and made gold. Because not only did it work...it made them stick around.

Remember, the characterization most white readers have of every black Marvel character has been created by white writers. This is probably why so many white readers have problems with a writer like Reginald Hudlin who writes characters like the Panther, Storm, Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo, Photon...from a lifetime's experience as a black man living in the U.S.

I think they have problems because he f-cking SUCKS to be honest. I mean christ man. Every f-cking point is dismissed by you..if the stories aren't good and people dislike the characterization ..its because "whitey don't get Hudlin" over and over.

I like Chuck Austen. But the man has his detractors and he wrote some bad books at times to many. I may joke around about people loving his work and all but I admit...he doesn't have a big fanbase. So me claiming that the mainstream virgin comics fan doesn't get Austen over and over ..since were gonna throw out a group here and say that is the reason they don't like creator A#.

Its just a load of crap. If he writes good books then people will like them. If he writes bad ones...people will complain and rightfully so. Its the internet and more people can see a piss poor comic than a good one at times discussed.

It works the same way with Reginald Hudlin. Keep making excuses for him. Keep waving the brush your trying to do. But its not working. Perhaps if the stories are good people will stick around and keep pulling the series , if it isn't... stop blaming white comics fans if the book fails.

Consider this. White Blues fans often credit white Blues performers with introducing them to the black INNOVATORS of the Blues genre. White rock and roll fans - many who are unaware that rock and roll is another music genre born of the culture of black Americans - say that Elvis and Buddy Holly are responsible to opening their eyes and minds to performers like Little Richard, Chuck Berry and Fats Domino.

Here comes Elvis again. Like clockwork. Elvis again resurfaces . Yes damn whitey for liking THE KING !! Nevermind he himself credited and put over that he loved the black artists and music. Hell in one interview he put over rythem and blues and the impact the music had on him growing up.


White comic fans relate to Luke Cage through his tie to Iron Fist. White comic fans related to Priest's T'Challa through the "everyman" Everett Ross. Many white comic fans are probably uncomfortable with the team of Cloak and Dagger although interracial couples are largely commonplace these days. And this comment....

Never had a problem with Cloak and Dagger. Their just boring as hell. Nevermind the roles both had in Civil War. I actually bought Luke Cage's solo series in 1992 when it came out....(the 1st 4 issues were in a pack) then I discovered Iron Fist and went back and started a slow collection of those issues.


....suggests you don't have a problem with Heroes For Hire, but have a problem with the lack of diversity seen in the Black Panther, Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo, Photon team up. Let me ask you then. How do you feel about an Avengers roster that boasts Iron Man, Black Widow, Wasp, Ms Marvel, Ares, Sentry? There are other times when the Avengers roster was entirely white. The FF, entirely white. Why should an entirely white team be accepted as the norm while an entirely black team is viewed as potentially problematic?

To me if the storyline makes sense , the characters all make sense teaming up...then it will click if an all black team came togethor . I remember when Roget Stern's classic Avengers run was shit on by Marvel and the new team was basically tossed togethor featuring:

Captain America
Black Panther
Quasar
Thor
Gilgamesh
Wasp

And it sucked. I mean looking at the team it basically sucked the lifeforce from what Stern had done. The characters showed no chemistry and it was bad.

But hell if were gonna toss stones Avengers wise ...did you buy the book during the 1980's when Photon (then Captain Marvel) led the team ?

[Shellhead]

This would be the approach DC recently took. I think sales of a Marvel version of this would end up with similiar sales trends.

DC might have been more successful with the newer characters if they had committed their top writers and artists to those comics. Instead, they put the big guns on the comics that would sell well anyway. For example, Grant Morrison revamped the Seven Soldiers, with the help of some decent artists, and that was a hit. Batman, as written by Grant Morrison, has irritated a lot of Bat-fans, and would have probably sold about as well with an average DC writer. Meanwhile, who was writing the new Blue Beetle and the new Firestorm? I'm not being rhetorical here, I honestly don't know who has been writing those comics.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

DC might have been more successful with the newer characters if they had committed their top writers and artists to those comics. Instead, they put the big guns on the comics that would sell well anyway. For example, Grant Morrison revamped the Seven Soldiers, with the help of some decent artists, and that was a hit. Batman, as written by Grant Morrison, has irritated a lot of Bat-fans, and would have probably sold about as well with an average DC writer. Meanwhile, who was writing the new Blue Beetle and the new Firestorm? I'm not being rhetorical here, I honestly don't know who has been writing those comics.

Dan Jolley started the Firestorm series in 2004. The 1st 10-11 issues were pretty damn good. DC had Stuart Moore come on and he just ran that series into the ground. Too many background characters in the way...like Firehawk,Photon ect ect. Too many changes...Rusch gets into an itriquing sub-plot with Stern as part of the new Firestorm matrix....they junk it 2 issues later making Firehawk part of it...then back to Stern....

McDuffie came in and wrote the final 3 issue arc. But DC ruined this title. Never should have let Jolley leave.

Blue Beetle was launched by Kurt Giffen and John Rodgers. Now its handled soley by Rodgers...

[EnDwiGast]

DC might have been more successful with the newer characters if they had committed their top writers and artists to those comics. Instead, they put the big guns on the comics that would sell well anyway. For example, Grant Morrison revamped the Seven Soldiers, with the help of some decent artists, and that was a hit. Batman, as written by Grant Morrison, has irritated a lot of Bat-fans, and would have probably sold about as well with an average DC writer. Meanwhile, who was writing the new Blue Beetle and the new Firestorm? I'm not being rhetorical here, I honestly don't know who has been writing those comics.


Maybe I'm a minority of one on this, but i don't think I am.

The difference to me is that Seven Soldiers did not seem to cause a rift between original Seven soldiers and new Seven soldiers fan bases. (Though i could be way off on this)

On the other hand, how many Ronnie Raymond and Ted Kord fans provided a more noticeable backlash against the newer characters?

If you had to kill off Doctor Strange to bring in a minority replacement that would piss off a lot of fans. You would of course bring in new ones - but they would have to replace those fans who would not buy the new book. But in Strange's particular case, that wouldn't be necessary. He hasn't had a disciple in a very long time & a student mage would not have the same issues with power levels that many Doc Strange writers can't seem to find their way around.

Replacements happen. I can accept that. Its just that I prefer finding a win-win scenario.

[Shellhead]

DC should have Dan Jolley and John Rodgers do a pirate comic together. Since Alan Moore has been mad at DC in recent years, DC could call it Tales of the Black Freighter.

[StoneGold]

The difference to me is that Seven Soldiers did not seem to cause a rift between original Seven soldiers and new Seven soldiers fan bases. (Though i could be way off on this)


The original Seven Soldiers didn't have enough appearances in the last 40 years to really have much of a fan base.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Maybe I'm a minority of one on this, but i don't think I am.

The difference to me is that Seven Soldiers did not seem to cause a rift between original Seven soldiers and new Seven soldiers fan bases. (Though i could be way off on this)

On the other hand, how many Ronnie Raymond and Ted Kord fans provided a more noticeable backlash against the newer characters?

It was how their deaths were handled more or less. Raymond dies seemingly after being stabbed by the Shadow Thief. Ted Kord has his brains blowed out graphically in a page.

Plus the sad thing is they had both been around 20+ years and had their small fanbases. Firestorm hadn't had a series in 14 years before Jolley wrote the new series and hero. Blue Beetle was even longer at 16. And it had died in 24 issues.

They had a small loyal fanbase devoted to the characters of Kord and Raymond. In fact had they not did these things and changed the characters life would have went on and the characters would have never gotten a series . Now due to demand for Ted and Ronnie's return we may see it in DC's 52 Multiverse structure.

If you had to kill off Doctor Strange to bring in a minority replacement that would piss off a lot of fans. You would of course bring in new ones - but they would have to replace those fans who would not buy the new book. But in Strange's particular case, that wouldn't be necessary. He hasn't had a disciple in a very long time & a student mage would not have the same issues with power levels that many Doc Strange writers can't seem to find their way around.

Replacements happen. I can accept that. Its just that I prefer finding a win-win scenario.

Having a new hero take over for an established hero or assume his mantle will never be easy. The fans are a hard sell. When Jason Todd was killed its said Marv Wolfman wanted to cry because now....now his job was much harder. He had to create Robin III and creating a Robin wasn't easy.

Todd had pretty much alienated fans. So Wolfman decided that Tim Drake had to be likeable and be a smart detective type. He was a young computer expert as well. The risk for failing was high but when he debuted Tim Drake became pretty accepted as Robin. His is a lesson I suppose on what a good change can happen when a new guy takes a mantle.

Kyle Rayner....Rayner suffered the worst fate. Taking over for Hal Jordan and dealing with that reaction. But along the way...Rayner nailed down his own fanbase. Even with tons of HEAT on his ass. Rayner made it...and had a good selling 12 issue mini-series in 2006 from DC as ION.

It can be done. It just takes balls to stay with the changes and good writers.

[Shellhead]

If you had to kill off Doctor Strange to bring in a minority replacement that would piss off a lot of fans. You would of course bring in new ones - but they would have to replace those fans who would not buy the new book. But in Strange's particular case, that wouldn't be necessary. He hasn't had a disciple in a very long time & a student mage would not have the same issues with power levels that many Doc Strange writers can't seem to find their way around.


This is probably a topic that deserves its own thread, but Doctor Strange has only enjoyed intermittent success with his own title, despite having some great writers and artists. Is he a great character who just happens to be not very popular? Maybe his popularity has faded over the years, given that Doc was the star of the 1980 Marvel calendar ('78 was Spider-man, and '79 was the Hulk... who has also lost some popularity since then). Maybe Strange works best as a guest-star, because he is too powerful? When he was a member of the Defenders, he rarely used his full of range abilities. Mostly he just flew or teleported the team into battle, blasted things with Bolts of Bedevilment, and otherwise served as a plot device. Aside from Brian K. Vaughn, nobody has written anything interesting about Strange in a long time. So I think that he might be a valid target for replacement.

[StoneGold]

This is probably a topic that deserves its own thread, but Doctor Strange has only enjoyed intermittent success with his own title, despite having some great writers and artists. Is he a great character who just happens to be not very popular? Maybe his popularity has faded over the years, given that Doc was the star of the 1980 Marvel calendar ('78 was Spider-man, and '79 was the Hulk... who has also lost some popularity since then). Maybe Strange works best as a guest-star, because he is too powerful? When he was a member of the Defenders, he rarely used his full of range abilities. Mostly he just flew or teleported the team into battle, blasted things with Bolts of Bedevilment, and otherwise served as a plot device. Aside from Brian K. Vaughn, nobody has written anything interesting about Strange in a long time. So I think that he might be a valid target for replacement.

Strange has an easy out. Throw him into another one of those interdimensional wars, when he comes out, he's the new Ancient One, and he needs a protoge. That way, if it turns out the protoge sucks, you can always de-age the original. But it all fits with the character's background.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

This is probably a topic that deserves its own thread, but Doctor Strange has only enjoyed intermittent success with his own title, despite having some great writers and artists. Is he a great character who just happens to be not very popular? Maybe his popularity has faded over the years, given that Doc was the star of the 1980 Marvel calendar ('78 was Spider-man, and '79 was the Hulk... who has also lost some popularity since then). Maybe Strange works best as a guest-star, because he is too powerful? When he was a member of the Defenders, he rarely used his full of range abilities. Mostly he just flew or teleported the team into battle, blasted things with Bolts of Bedevilment, and otherwise served as a plot device. Aside from Brian K. Vaughn, nobody has written anything interesting about Strange in a long time. So I think that he might be a valid target for replacement.


I actually....actually had this idea. Its kinda crazy but something Strange could do.

********************

What would happen if Strange left his body during some kind of spiritual healing or meditation and his body dies ? With time ticking down Strange's soul must find a body to share with someone. At a College keger party a young Adam Strange (no relation to Dr.Strange) is drunk and woozy. Stephan sees that Adam may end up accidently killing himself as he stands on the roof drunk....he floats into his body to save him and ends up implanting some of his soul inside Adam.

The next morning a hungover Adam Strange wakes up and walks to the mirror. As he washes his face he sees Stephan Strange's image in the mirror...scaring the shit outta him ! Strange tries to calm the boy down.

"Look we have to work togethor. I am DOCTOR STEPHAN STRANGE ...and I am stuck inside your soul sharing it....if you will."

The 2 slowly have to grow accustemd to working togethor. Having Dr.Strange's voice inside his head is a rough one on Adam. Since he's always talking about saving the world , the Avengers and everything. Plus Stephan learns a shock ....Adam Strange is studying to be a Surgeon !

Can a young 20 something kid learn the ropes of magic, save the universe and land the hottie of his dreams , all while sharin a soul with an older more wordly guy ? Stay tuned....

*****************************************

Ok its just an an idea. But imagine Dr.Strange having to be a mentor to a kid in a way and learn magic as well. ;)

[EnDwiGast]

This is probably a topic that deserves its own thread, but Doctor Strange has only enjoyed intermittent success with his own title, despite having some great writers and artists. Is he a great character who just happens to be not very popular? Maybe his popularity has faded over the years, given that Doc was the star of the 1980 Marvel calendar ('78 was Spider-man, and '79 was the Hulk... who has also lost some popularity since then). Maybe Strange works best as a guest-star, because he is too powerful? When he was a member of the Defenders, he rarely used his full of range abilities. Mostly he just flew or teleported the team into battle, blasted things with Bolts of Bedevilment, and otherwise served as a plot device. Aside from Brian K. Vaughn, nobody has written anything interesting about Strange in a long time. So I think that he might be a valid target for replacement.

My take on this is that the Fantastic Four and Doctor Strange are high concept titles and quite frankly, there just aren't enough high concept writers.

Writer's have to be very creative with them and continue to come up with something truly innovative for them to run into next. On a similiar note any of the most powerful characters need to have a constant flow of worthy opponents to carry an ongoing. Thats what makes Stan and Jack's run on FF truly extraordinary.

I think Joe Q is correct in that the rules of magic in the marvel U need better definition. This is what I was hoping for from Mystic arcana .. but with one issue to go there, i still don't feel its happened yet.

Changing Doc strange's ethnicity or gender isn't going to solve the key problem. What you'll likely get is someone having a Doc use mystic bolts of energy the same way others use a different bolt of energy or some cure-all spell that makes everything go back to the way it is.

The problem with Stephen Strange isn't the character himself, but finding a writer who can write stories worthy of a master of the mystic arts.

This ties into the overall theme in this thread because casting a different face in a familiar role provides the illusion of freshness, but after that initial wave of interest and novelty you are right back to the original problems the overall character concept faces. You need good writing. Now the FF have a more conventional response - defined by their relatively fixed powers. Doc strange does not have this advantage, and until he does its a problem for him carrying an ongoing.

[EnDwiGast]

Plus the sad thing is they had both been around 20+ years and had their small fanbases. Firestorm hadn't had a series in 14 years before Jolley wrote the new series and hero. Blue Beetle was even longer at 16. And it had died in 24 issues.

A great post, and i only shortened my referencing it to save some space.

DC has certainly seemed more likely to pull the trigger on character turnover.

For me though, thats why I generally haven't read much DC over the years and have preferred marvel.

My take on it is why get invested in the story of a character only to see him or her disappear into limbo or have the story cut short and have someone else jump in instead, only to be in turn replaced, and so on and so forth.

You're absolutely right in that an individual character needs at least one champion to provide a definitive take on a character. Its exciting when you find a creator has an interest in a character you also have had a strong interest in, and frustrating when it seems they keep picking characters you don't have any deep enthusiasm for.

I'm one who would have gladly picked up a new Ronnie Raymond or Ted Kord series. The brand new Booster Gold ongoing is an example of how one of these characters could eventually have been revived. In Booster's case, there was the new archetypal role of timecop that has opened a path for him to become a major player in that community. May not solve the diversity question, but my interest in seeing the ongoing adventures of an established favorite of mine trumps that for me.

But then, readng the continuing adventures of particular individuals is why I'm a comic book reader in the first place.

[Shellhead]

My take on this is that the Fantastic Four and Doctor Strange are high concept titles and quite frankly, there just aren't enough high concept writers.

Writer's have to be very creative with them and continue to come up with something truly innovative for them to run into next. On a similiar note any of the most powerful characters need to have a constant flow of worthy opponents to carry an ongoing. Thats what makes Stan and Jack's run on FF truly extraordinary.

I think Joe Q is correct in that the rules of magic in the marvel U need better definition. This is what I was hoping for from Mystic arcana .. but with one issue to go there, i still don't feel its happened yet.

Changing Doc strange's ethnicity or gender isn't going to solve the key problem. What you'll likely get is someone having a Doc use mystic bolts of energy the same way others use a different bolt of energy or some cure-all spell that makes everything go back to the way it is.

The problem with Stephen Strange isn't the character himself, but finding a writer who can write stories worthy of a master of the mystic arts.

This ties into the overall theme in this thread because casting a different face in a familiar role provides the illusion of freshness, but after that initial wave of interest and novelty you are right back to the original problems the overall character concept faces. You need good writing. Now the FF have a more conventional response - defined by their relatively fixed powers. Doc strange does not have this advantage, and until he does its a problem for him carrying an ongoing.

Excellent analysis. I gave up on the Fantastic Four and Doctor Strange in the
mid 80's because I thought that the quality had dropped. I tried them both again in the 90's and was even more disappointed. You're correct that the real problem was a lack of creativity, because the issues that I tried were ones where the characters were forced to behave more like generic super-heroes. The Fantastic Four is a family of explorers, and fighting bad guys shouldn't be the primary focus of the book on an ongoing basis. Likewise, while it was fun to see Doctor Strange fight Hobgoblin and bad publicity (subplot involving an ex writing an expose about him), it was a thematic mismatch that wrecked the title.

Beyond that, you are absolutely correct that writers of Doctor Strange need some defined and consistent rules of magic. Otherwise, Doc is always as powerful or as weak as the story calls for, which simply enables lazy writing. Sooner or later, every fan can see through it, and many feel cheated. Post-IC, DC is supposedly giving us a new set of laws of magic for their setting, although I haven't really seen it because I haven't been following Shadowpact or any other mystical titles. (Does DC have any other mystical comics right now?) Marvel needs to do the same, although they will have a greater challenge if they want to avoid looking like copycats.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

A great post, and i only shortened my referencing it to save some space.

DC has certainly seemed more likely to pull the trigger on character turnover.

For me though, thats why I generally haven't read much DC over the years and have preferred marvel.

To be fair DC only recently started changing back some heroes. Back in the mid 90's if DC had a story idea then by all rights they would go forward . They would take the hell fans would throw at the changes to Green Lantern,Green Arrow and Batman. To tell the stories they had planned.

Marvel meanwhile would pull the trigger on changing the same characters into....the same characters. The whole Tony Stark and Peter Parker clone thing makes me chuckle. They wanted to shake up and change the status quo but not really change it. But pretty much pissed off the fanbase in quick order (telling fans the Spiderman they had collected for 25 years was a clone slapped them in the face pretty much) so they ran like hell to change it all back.

My take on it is why get invested in the story of a character only to see him or her disappear into limbo or have the story cut short and have someone else jump in instead, only to be in turn replaced, and so on and so forth.

DC doesn't pull out the change all major characters card much. Its usally for a b-hero who hasn't had much exposure . They will dust off a character like Firestorm and think of a new way to approach said character and so forth.

Well in the mid 80's DC attempted to change Wildcat into a new female hero. That lasted a few years and she was killed off. Just recently DC handed the mantle of "The Question" to Renee Montaya and really did a good story-arc to sell that. I believe she'll stick since the story was very nice and sad.


You're absolutely right in that an individual character needs at least one champion to provide a definitive take on a character. Its exciting when you find a creator has an interest in a character you also have had a strong interest in, and frustrating when it seems they keep picking characters you don't have any deep enthusiasm for.

Thats it basically. If the writer is good...and he has the talent to make the character shine and wants it to happen....it can work. Ron Marz came onto Kyle Rayner with more reasons to fail than what Reginald Hudlin had with Black Panther. You had an angry , pissed off fanbase and all Marz wanted was time. He had wanted a longer arc to drive Hal Jordan mad but DC wanted the change done at GL #50 .

And he did it. He suffered some angry fans. But along the way he developed the character into something fans fell for. By using the blueprint of an established hero (Marz would tell later he modeled Kyle after Peter Parker in a way) and making a character who had his faults and was young....they rode the wave. They made a character who had lasted a decade plus and has his own role .

Wally West himself was suffering a lack of caring and enter Mark Waid. The fans always asked when Barry was coming back and why should they care about the former Kid Flash. Waid had one hell of a job convincing that fanbase that Wally deserved to be Flash. And he did. He won them over.

Marz and Waid didn't have to pose as posters to do it. Or throw absurd crap around that this section of fans hate the character or anything. They sit down....and worked on good stories. Sinjection has tried to claim that "white comic buyers" fear a black character. No... they fear bad stories. They have budgets and won't buy CRAP. So he'll keep ignoring the main points of why people diss the books and pluck down his absurd crap.

Earlier in this thread I demanded he show me a poll of some kind. A reason how he knows "white comic buyers" won't read Cage or Black Panther if written by a McDuffie or a Hudlin. He can't....I can't even produce one since its pretty hard to produce something like that without proof and getting that proof would take an imense effort .

The only thing you can really go by is sales numbers and figures. One LCS who posts on CBR once said that a Grant Morrison can guarentee sales. And its hard to fault that since Morrison took 7 Soldiers as a property (who really aren't big at DC) and sold 40,000 copies with those mini-series.

So perhaps if and when Luke Cage gets his own series ....we'll see how his numbers do. Thats all we can hope for.


I'm one who would have gladly picked up a new Ronnie Raymond or Ted Kord series. The brand new Booster Gold ongoing is an example of how one of these characters could eventually have been revived. In Booster's case, there was the new archetypal role of timecop that has opened a path for him to become a major player in that community. May not solve the diversity question, but my interest in seeing the ongoing adventures of an established favorite of mine trumps that for me.

Theres talk Raymond and Kord will be brought back due to the Multiverse effect. But yeah....take one uber-talented super hero writer in Geoff Johns and add B-Character who people love and you get magic.

But then, readng the continuing adventures of particular individuals is why I'm a comic book reader in the first place.

If the stories are good....if the comic is awesome its the greatest feeling in the world knowing you have something that you feel is AWESOME. I got that feeling after reading Immortal Iron Fist #8. I thought... what an industry. We need more great work like Immortal Iron Fist since I love that book.

[sinjection]

I only bring issue with this because PRIEST wrote most of those characters in Black Panther and I can't recall anyone complaining.

I wasn't paying much attention to forums such as this one during the period of PRIEST's run. He likes his name in all-caps, eh? I didn't know that :) Overtime, PRIEST's storytelling, his portrayal of the Panther and his use of Everett Ross began to wear thin on me. Eventually, I dropped the book which is a first for me. I'd never dropped anything featuring the Black Panther before. I have since purchased some of the back issues of that run. Having read through them, I have no regrets about dropping the title. PRIEST's run started out promising. I loved the Joe Jusko artwork. For many reasons, I found myself really disliking the book. Since I've been participating in forums like this after PRIEST's run, I have been involved in discussions where at least one other person besides myself had similar feelings about PRIEST's Panther run.

PRIEST also being a black man who has lived (as far as I know) in the US his whole life.

While every black person living in the U.S. is subject to the racism that still pervades our society, there are places where racism seems to be less apparent than it might be in other places. Not every black American will have the same life experiences. Some might see very little racism in the daily course of their lives, others might get racism in heavier doses. The fact remains that for most U.S. blacks, there isn't a week of their lives that goes by when they don't experience at least one incident of covert and sometimes, overt racism. Hudlin and PRIEST are likely writing through their personal and unique experiences. The fact that both writers happen to be black doesn't necessarily mean they will write the same way. Hudlin's Panther does seem to resonate with black comic book readers. Many of those black comic book readers happen to be PRIEST fans as well. While I wish PRIEST the best, I came to hate his Panther run.

If anything, I think Hudlin's BP has suffered criticism just because it was similiar enough to PRIEST's (is he still insisting on the single name, all caps? I remember he was at one point), but for the most part, inferior.

Well, here's where our opinions will differ. I don't see Hudlin's Panther as being similar to PRIEST's and I certainly don't believe Hudlin's Panther is inferior to PRIEST's. I dropped PRIEST's Panther. I have no intentions of dropping Hudlin's Panther in the foreseeable future. The only remnant of PRIEST's run that I've seen in Hudlin's Panther to date is the presence of the odious Everett Ross.

Did Priest just write for white people better? It's possible, although the book didn't seem particularly geared towards them.

Well let's see....PRIEST's run: White Wolf - who was T'Challa's white or bi-racial brother by adoption (who to date has not reappeared in Hudlin's run), White Tiger - the bi-racial "Casper" Cole - Cole was called "Casper" due to his light complexion :rolleyes: - assumed this identity after masquerading as the Black Panther. The only wolf species in Africa is the so-called "Denali Wolf" and that animal looks more like a coyote than anything else. It seemed to me that PRIEST's "White Wolf" was based more on the European and American species of the animal. There are no tigers on the continent of Africa and yet, PRIEST introduces a character named "White Wolf"? He seemed to have something of a fixation with things white and naming characters "white this" or "white that".

While Hudlin is writing for a general comic book audience, any personal experiences or perceptions he brings to the table will produce a portrayal of the Panther that is uniquely his own. PRIEST likely took a similar if not the same approach to his writing, but seemed to be making a special effort to "appease" the white comic book reader knowing that by doing so, his publication might enjoy a longer run. Hudlin's run will exceed the total number of issues produced by PRIEST.

[Blade X]

We definitely have that "think" in common. Aside from Cloak, Marvel has created only one other black American mutant, the mutant Bling. I'm not sure if she made your list or not. According to Wikipedia, the character retained her powers after M-Day or Decimation Day, whatever it was called. She is supposed to be part of a team formed by Gambit. However, the last I saw of Gambit, he was a Horseman. The only reason I purchased that X-book was because it was illustrated by one of my favorites, Salvador LaRocca. Otherwise, I'd have left it on the shelf.

:D It wouldn't surprise me either. What would surprise me is Synch, Shard and Goliath back among the comic book living. By the way, did you know that the original Dr. Spectrum was an African? Kenji Obatu. He fought Iron Man and lost when the Power Prism was destroyed. The original Dr. Spectrum was a villain. The Power Prism reformed but did not find its way back to Obatu. That's a shame. Dr. Spectrum was a cool character. Of course he's still a cool character. He's just no longer a minority.



I left Bling off the list because she was last seen (briefly) in a recent issue of NXM. That being said, I think I should add her to the list, since we will most likely never see her again. Of course with a name like "Bling", that might not be such a bad thing. Giving a black character the codename "Bling" has got to be one of the most insulting and stereotypical codenames ever given to a black character.

I didn't know the original Dr. Spectrum was an African. Thanks for the info.

[Blade X]

By the by....I believe we need to add Chemistro/Curtis Carr to the list. He was an old Luke Cage foe. Cage also fought a foe by the name of Diamondback...or something like that. Then of course, there was his old cellmates Shades and Commanche. I don't think either of those two will ever make it back. There were two weird Cage foes, both of the overweight variety. Black Mariah and Big Ben Donovan.

I intentionally left non-white minority villains of color off the list because I wanted to make a list of all heroes,anti-heroes,and reformed villains turned heroes. That being said, I think it would be cool and informative if you would start a list of unused non-white minority villains.

[Blade X]

Three more possibles for the list:

Nezhno (Gentle) - Wakandan mutant who may be depowered now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nezhno

Nekra - Daredevil foe and partner to Mandrill. Albino black female having vampiric features. She would have been an interesting challenge for Blade. She has super strength and invulnerability. The more hate she generates, the stronger she becomes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekra

Black Talon II- The original Black Talon appeared in the Avengers and is responsible for resurrecting Wonder Man from the dead. Today, Black Talon himself is dead, hence, Black Talon II. Both characters are voodoo priests. The first Black Talon was a foe of Brother Voodoo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon_(comics)

This character needn't be added to the list as I believe he is being used (and abused), by those black male-demeaning X-writers. I don't believe there's ever been the black mutant (especially male), the X-writers didn't like. Darwin is another such unfortunate. Darwin is black American and Puerto Rican which makes him essentially the male mutant equivalent of the beautiful Dr. Cecilia Reyes herself a black Puerto Rican. Darwin's powers are interesting enough, but in keeping with the "X-curse of the black mutant male", Darwin's physical appearance makes him appear alien.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(comics)

Of course poor Cecilia didn't escape unscathed either. She has been made to kiss the animal mouth of the Beast/Hank McCoy.

Black comic book fans should have it out with the X-Men franchise once and for all. The manner in which black mutant characters are treated is attrocious.

Both Nezhno and Darwin are currently being used. The others you named are villains, and need to be on a separate villain list.

[Blade X]

In that case, I believe many white Marvel comic book fans may feel the current Black Panther publication is a step in this direction. Hudlin - a high-ranking BET employee himself - has written stories that have established Wakanda's technological excellence, economic independence, self-reliance and self-sufficiency. "BET Hudlin" is the first writer ever to have the Black Panther - T'Challa or T'Chaka - claim an undisputed victory over Captain America. This might have been the first thing he did that rubbed white Marvel comic book fans in the wrong direction. T'Challa's marriage to Ororo was criticized as a marriage for the Black Panther's convenience and claimed the marriage likely would have never taken place had the two characters not both been black.

White readers seem to be very sensitive to any book featuring a black or otherwise minority character that does not seem to have a prominent or noticeable white character. Angela Del Toro, the White Tiger was almost immediately joined by Daredevil and Spider-man. For many white comic fans, Luke Cage just isn't Luke Cage unless Iron Fist is tagging along. Many white fans who now speak of Priest's Black Panther run as almost "saintly" probably didn't pay much attention to it during its actual existence. Those white readers who did were likely more interested in Everett Ross' impressions of what T'Challa did than they were in what T'Challa was actually doing.

For many white Marvel comics fans, books like Black Panther, Blade, Luke Cage without Iron Fist, Black Panther teamed with Cage, Blade, Brother Voodoo and Photon is exactly the kind of "diversity" your question alludes to. All indications seem to suggest that most of those white fans are cool to - not cool with - that kind of diversity.

As for myself, I believe Blade X's list contains characters who are interesting, compelling and exciting. Some have suggested the Cloak and Dagger books were always boring. I disagree. Many of those stories were innovative, imaginative and well-written. The duo encountered street foes and characters as imposing as "Mr. Jip", Doctor Doom and the Beyonder. I suspect it wasn't the stories that turned many white readers off the book. It was the characters featured in the book that turned them off.

As both characters have previous experience stirring up trouble in Africa, I could see Nekra and Mandrill popping up as a challenge for Storm and the Black Panther. It would be just like Nekra and Mandrill who are known for their army of black female warriors, to try to subvert the Panther's own Dora Milaje. There is a wealth of black and minority characters who don't need to be exploited as they have in the past, but fully realized as the exciting characters they are.

Well to be fair, there are many non-white comic book readers (including black readers like myself) who do not like any of those things you mentioned.

I don't like Hudlin's BP run. I HATE all of the continuity errors in his run. I HATE that he married BP and Storm simply because marriage, except for a very few RARE occasions, ruins characters. I don't like it that he made BP and the Wakandians too "perfect" (Hudlin's heart was in the right place, but I think he went to far over board). I wouldn't have had a problem with the WW2 BP beating Cap if that was how the fight ORIGINALLY ended in the story by Priest, which this was a retelling of.

I prefer to read a POWER MAN AND IRON FIST book then solo books starring EITHER POWER MAN or IRON FIST.

I read all of the previous CLOAK & DAGGER series, and I that they for the MOST PART, were boring as hell. I main problem with C&D has always beens Cloak's powers and personality.

[Blade X]

Marvel seems to enjoy killing characters off and then bringing them back. That's two bumps to sales. But what if instead of bringing characters back, they replaced them?

For example, Doctor Strange is the Sorceror Supreme of the 616 dimension. Next time that he dies (and he will, that's just the way Marvel operates), let Strange stay dead, or better yet hang around as a ghost. He can then tutor Brother Voodoo as the next Sorceror Supreme. Maybe that training takes too long, and Baron Mordo grabs the title first. That just makes it more interesting as Brother Voodoo battles from an underdog role to eventually claim the title.


I'm against killing off less popular and/or 3rd string white characters and replacing them with either newer or lesser known non-white characters.

That being said, it would make more sense to have the ghost of Dr. Strange tutor Jinx instead of Brother Voodoo to become the next Sorcerer Supreme. Jinx is a teenage black male with natual magic powers. He's a pretty cool character.

[sinjection]

I left Bling off the list because she was last seen (briefly) in a recent issue of NXM.

You had a Bling sighting. It's good to see a black mutant or mutant of color who isn't depowered or deceased. Her mutant appearance is rather startling to say the least. I wonder if like Marrow, Bling is "stuck that way".

That being said, I think I should add her to the list, since we will most likely never see her again.

:) I hope that the Marvel Universe has not seen the last of Bling. In keeping with the central theme of this thread, Bling - being both black and lesbian - is representative of the kind of diversity in Marvel Comics' characters we have been discussing.

Giving a black character the codename "Bling" has got to be one of the most insulting and stereotypical codenames ever given to a black character.

Well, at least they didn't go and name her "U Go Girl". I see the point you're making. It could be that whoever named the character "Bling" did so with the Hip Hop "bling thing" in mind. However, it could just be another take on the same stream of thought that created the name "Dazzler" and "Jubilee". Dazzler and Jubilee have powers that are somewhat similar. Both put on light shows of a sort. There was the character "Boom Boom", so named for her power of creating localized explosions. Yes, Bling's parents are in the music industry, one parent being a rap music star.... Dang. You know what? Let me stop while I'm behind. You're right. It's hard to justify the name. Still, there are worse names. How about a young female character with psionic powers codenamed "Jailbait"? What could the codename "Jailbait" possibly have in connection with her psionic abilities? The young lady is a member of a group known as the Riot Squad.

I didn't know the original Dr. Spectrum was an African. Thanks for the info.

Of course. Happy to be of service. Dr. Obatu, the original Dr. Spectrum, had a symbiotic relationship with the power prism which was a living, sentient being and if not a living being, then it's diamond-like form contained a consciousness that was independent of Dr. Obatu's will. The prism gave "Green Lantern-like" powers to Obatu, but unlike the power ring, the power prism would often criticize Obatu's fighting techniques and the two would actually argue among themselves while fighting against their foe. The new Dr. Spectrum no longer needs the power prism. The power resides with him.

[sinjection]

I intentionally left non-white minority villains of color off the list because I wanted to make a list of all heroes,anti-heroes,and reformed villains turned heroes. That being said, I think it would be cool and informative if you would start a list of unused non-white minority villains.

Very good then. In that case, we should probably add Rocket Racer to the list. I don't believe I saw him listed. He started his "super-person" career as a villain, but later reformed and has even fought alongside the "good guys" as Rocket Racer.

A member of a villainous cadre, Sam Laroquette looks like a head trapped inside of a craggy boulder which he can mentally manipulate and form into appendages and fists. He doesn't appear to be very happy about it either. Codenamed Rock Laroquette has fought against the Hulk and if I'm not mistaken, the Avengers. I vaguely remember a time when Laroquette was hit very hard by an extremely powerful foe, either the Hulk or Thor, and the blow actually shattered the rock shell encasing him. No sooner had he begun to celebrate his freedom from his stone prison than the rock began re-forming itself around his nude body. In mere seconds, Laroquette was once again encased by stone.

Well, getting my list of unused, non-white minority villains going:

Adversary (Native American enemy of Forge)
Aries I (Member of Zodiac crime cartel)
Baron Macabre (Black Panther foe)
Big Ben Donovan
Black Mariah
Black Talon II
Bushmaster (there are about 3 characters with the name. all may be related)
Calypso
Centurius
Chemistro
Commanche
Condor (black man with natural wings ala Angel, Icarus. He was a member of an avian race. He appeared in the Nova comics and was teamed with the teenager Powerhouse).
Cottonmouth (Luke Cage foe)
Diamondback
Deadly Nightshade (now Nightshade)
Doctor Spectrum (Dr. Kenji Obatu)
King Cadaver (Panther foe)
Jetstream (Moroccan mutant. Member of Emma Frost's original Hellions)
Lionfang
Lion God
Lord Karnaj (Panther foe)
Malice (Panther foe)
Mandarin
Mangler (Luke Cage Hero for Hire foe)
Morgan (Harlem's version of the Kingpin)
Moses Magnum
Nekra
Rock
Spear (Cage foe, Mangler's brother. not to be confused with Askari, the Spear)
Sphinx (former foe of Nova. now Omni-Sphinx)
Temugin (son of the Mandarin and wielder of the Power Rings)
Thunderball (member of the Wrecking Crew)
Tombstone

more to come....possibly :)

I knew that Darwin was being used (and misused), but I wasn't aware Nezhno was still in the mix. I'd read somewhere that the White Queen didn't deem him X-Men worthy because he was too soft.

[sinjection]

Well to be fair, there are many non-white comic book readers (including black readers like myself) who do not like any of those things you mentioned.


Fair enough.

I don't like Hudlin's BP run. I HATE all of the continuity errors in his run.

I think I read somewhere that 40+ years of Marvel Universe continuity has bogged down the ability of writers to tell a story effectively. Recently in fact, the Inhumans were involved in a "Silent War" against S.H.I.E.L.D. and the U.S. And yet, in World War Hulk there doesn't seem to be a mention of this "Silent War" and Black Bolt appears to be in two places at the same time.

I HATE that he married BP and Storm simply because marriage, except for a very few RARE occasions, ruins characters.

So why can't this be one of those "very few RARE occassions" that is the exception to the "ruins characters" rule? I LOVE that Storm and the Panther are married. I believe the union works out very well for the both of them. Also, the Hudlin marriage of the two characters is far preferrable to what PRIEST had planned for the pair, not to mention Claremont's hinting that Ororo may be bi-curious.

I don't like it that he made BP and the Wakandians too "perfect" (Hudlin's heart was in the right place, but I think he went to far over board).

The fact that Wakanda supposedly has the cure for cancer and has not yet shared that cure with the world suggests that they are far from perfect. The Wakandans are arrogant and xenophobic, even where other blacks are concerned. Their government system is prone to corruption as there always seems to be some high-ranking member plotting to undermine T'Challa's authority. Advanced technology, self-sufficiency and national pride gone haywire doesn't make a nation perfect.

I wouldn't have had a problem with the WW2 BP beating Cap if that was how the fight ORIGINALLY ended in the story by Priest, which this was a retelling of.

I loved that Hudlin finally had the Black Panther (one of them at least), gaining an undisputed victory over Captain America. PRIEST had T'Chaka and Captain America fighting to a draw. In other instances where T'Challa has fought Captain America, T'Challa has always been inhibited and hesitant. He couldn't bring himself to actually fight against Captain America because the man was so noble. Captain America respected T'Challa as well. But that never stopped Captain America from defeating T'Challa in their head-to-heads.

I prefer to read a POWER MAN AND IRON FIST book then solo books starring EITHER POWER MAN or IRON FIST.

Here we have a clear difference with regard to our personal preference. I would like to see what Cage is able to do on his own....with the lovely Jessica and baby Jessica/Luke of course. What is that baby's name?

I read all of the previous CLOAK & DAGGER series, and I that they for the MOST PART, were boring as hell. I main problem with C&D has always beens Cloak's powers and personality

And I believe that the duo has been featured in some very imaginative, well-told stories against formidable foes. I will agree that Cloak could be better utilized. He has the potential to be a very powerful character. I'll post more on these two characters later. I believe that where Marvel may have missed the boat by not creating the Black Panther as a black American, they may have the next best thing in Cloak and Dagger.

[Blade X]

Very good then. In that case, we should probably add Rocket Racer to the list. I don't believe I saw him listed. He started his "super-person" career as a villain, but later reformed and has even fought alongside the "good guys" as Rocket Racer.

A member of a villainous cadre, Sam Laroquette looks like a head trapped inside of a craggy boulder which he can mentally manipulate and form into appendages and fists. He doesn't appear to be very happy about it either. Codenamed Rock Laroquette has fought against the Hulk and if I'm not mistaken, the Avengers. I vaguely remember a time when Laroquette was hit very hard by an extremely powerful foe, either the Hulk or Thor, and the blow actually shattered the rock shell encasing him. No sooner had he begun to celebrate his freedom from his stone prison than the rock began re-forming itself around his nude body. In mere seconds, Laroquette was once again encased by stone.

I knew that Darwin was being used (and misused), but I wasn't aware Nezhno was still in the mix. I'd read somewhere that the White Queen didn't deem him X-Men worthy because he was too soft.

Rocket Racer is currently appearing in the SUPER VILLAIN TEAM-UP mini series along with Puma and Armadillo. Which is kind of strange since none of those characters are really villains. Rocket Racer and Armadillo are reformed, and Puma is a mercenary with a sense of honor.

I forgot about Rock. Thanks for reminding me about him.

Nezhno has been appearing in the recent issues of NXM.

[Shellhead]

Rocket Racer is currently appearing in the SUPER VILLAIN TEAM-UP mini series along with Puma and Armadillo. Which is kind of strange since none of those characters are really villains. Rocket Racer and Armadillo are reformed, and Puma is a mercenary with a sense of honor.


These days, Marvel could get away with having Iron Man and Hulk star in Super-Villain Team-Up. The only trick would be to get them to actually team up against something. A couple of years back, Marvel had a shortage of great villains, because too many had become heroic. Now they have a shortage of great heroes.

[Blade X]

I think I read somewhere that 40+ years of Marvel Universe continuity has bogged down the ability of writers to tell a story effectively. Recently in fact, the Inhumans were involved in a "Silent War" against S.H.I.E.L.D. and the U.S. And yet, in World War Hulk there doesn't seem to be a mention of this "Silent War" and Black Bolt appears to be in two places at the same time.

So why can't this be one of those "very few RARE occassions" that is the exception to the "ruins characters" rule? I LOVE that Storm and the Panther are married. I believe the union works out very well for the both of them. Also, the Hudlin marriage of the two characters is far preferrable to what PRIEST had planned for the pair, not to mention Claremont's hinting that Ororo may be bi-curious.

The fact that Wakanda supposedly has the cure for cancer and has not yet shared that cure with the world suggests that they are far from perfect. The Wakandans are arrogant and xenophobic, even where other blacks are concerned. Their government system is prone to corruption as there always seems to be some high-ranking member plotting to undermine T'Challa's authority. Advanced technology, self-sufficiency and national pride gone haywire doesn't make a nation perfect.

Here we have a clear difference with regard to our personal preference. I would like to see what Cage is able to do on his own....with the lovely Jessica and baby Jessica/Luke of course. What is that baby's name?


I MOSTLY blame Marvel's current editorial staff for the HUGE screw ups in continuity.

The RARE occasions I think Marriage works is when the characters are either already married when they are introduced,engaged to be married when they are introduced,or are part of a superhero family team (like the FF and the BIONIC SIX).

IIRC, the negative things you listed about the WAkandians did not appear in Hudlin's first 18 issues on the current BP series (I stopped reading the book with issue #18, so I might be wrong). However, all of those negative aspects were in Priest's run on the book.

The only Luke Cage solo book I would be interested in reading is the proposed CAGE series by Dwayne McDuffie from the 90's. I'm also on the fence about reading the upcoming CAGE mini series by the creator of SAMURAI JACK (I'm a HUGE SJ fan). As for Cage's baby's name, I have no idea what her name is, but it has been recently hinted at that she may actually be a Skrull.

[sinjection]

Rocket Racer is currently appearing in the SUPER VILLAIN TEAM-UP mini series along with Puma and Armadillo. Which is kind of strange since none of those characters are really villains. Rocket Racer and Armadillo are reformed, and Puma is a mercenary with a sense of honor.


Kind of surprising. I almost added Puma to the villains list I've been compiling because of his history as a mercenary and assassin, but thought better of it. Now it appears Marvel is trying to work the characters Rocket Racer and Puma back into the mix as villains. As I was putting the villain's list together, I was thinking that there had to be more than I could remember or was finding.

Lord Karnaj, Baron Macabre, King Cadaver are old Panther foes from the "Panther's Rage" arc. It would be nice to see Hudlin work those characters in somehow. Mangler, Spear, Commanche and Shades are old Luke Cage Hero for Hire villains who will likely never again make another appearance.

I'd like to see Nezhno in action, but I am loathe to pick up any X-related title. The only black male character appearing in an X-related title who was shown to be truly formidable was Moses Magnum and he is neither mutant nor hero.

[sinjection]

These days, Marvel could get away with having Iron Man and Hulk star in Super-Villain Team-Up. The only trick would be to get them to actually team up against something. A couple of years back, Marvel had a shortage of great villains, because too many had become heroic. Now they have a shortage of great heroes.

Iron Man has really hit bottom as far as any ideals of him being a hero remaining from my childhood days as a comic book fan is concerned. I could see how Iron Man, Spider-man and other heroes who were pro-registration believed it was the right thing to do especially in the immediate aftermath of the deaths caused by Nitro. I didn't follow Civil War closely, but from what bits and pieces I picked up, it appeared to me that Iron Man and his allies seemed to fight the war in an underhanded way. Knowing now that Iron Man and Reed Richards were members of the Illuminati and that way back whenever, they anticipated something like the Civil War happening makes me look at both Iron Man and Richards in a different light. Richards was responsible for the creation of "Clor". That makes him responsible for the death of Black Goliath in my book.

Although he's supposed to be some kind of good guy, I'd have happily added Jim Rhodes to my list of non-white super-villains. I never liked him. I couldn't watch the old Iron Man cartoons featuring Spider-Woman as Stark's girlfriend and Rhodes because Rhode's constant whining disgusted me. I was also turned off by Rhodes in the recently released animated Iron Man dvd. He was the same old whining character.

[sinjection]

I MOSTLY blame Marvel's current editorial staff for the HUGE screw ups in continuity.


Marvel's editorial staff should know better, but it's understandable how there could be confusion. Marvel's convoluted continuity is a 40+ year old "ball of confusion" to use a lyric from a song performed by Motown's mighty Temptations :) The continuity strands are very intricate. The staff could pick their way through the many years of character and situational backstories but even then, there are instances where the continuity strands may "fork" for want of a better word. An editor or writer could choose the stand of continuity that most appeals to them and suits their purpose at the risk of annoying long-time fans who prefer the strand of continuity the editor or writer didn't choose.

For instance, like many fans, you have mentioned the continuity problems in Hudlin's Black Panther. T'Chaka doesn't fight Cap to a draw, but defeats him outright. T'Challa's and Ororo's love story seems to vary widely from their earlier personal encounters as described by other writers. This isn't the first and probably not the only time when an editor/writer combo has in essence, changed the facts of a long established fact of continuity and told a different story that suits their purposes.

- The origin of Cloak and Dagger was written in a 4-issue mini series published in 1983-84. Tyrone Johnson/Tandy Bown - runaways. Were captured and injected with an experimental drug that transformed them into beings of shadow and light. That story was written by Bill Mantlo - who with Ed Hannigan, created Cloak and Dagger - and edited by Tom DeFalco.

- Later, it was determined that Johnson and Bowen were actually mutants and the experimental drug they were injected with triggered their latent abilities. This story makes the most sense when you consider that Tandy's biological father - whom she and Ty met in Strange Tales #1 - #2 - had light powers similar to hers. They found him in Lashi, India. He was living in a mountaintop temple and calling himself the Lord of Light. So it makes sense that Tandy was born a mutant and like Polaris and Magneto, gained powers that were similar to those of her father. What doesn't make sense is this. Cloak and Dagger were in the presence of Prof X and he couldn't discern the fact that they were mutants. He invited them to stay with them so he could discover the "true nature of the powers" and "find a means of removing them". That isn't Prof. X's usual approach to mutants is it?

- 8 years after the origin of Cloak and Dagger was written by Bill Mantlo, the so-called TRUE Origin of the duo was written by Terry Kavanaugh and still edited by Tom DeFalco. Apparently, unbeknownst to Tyrone or Tandy - who were struggling in the river at the time - the demonic entity D'Spayre was with them and preparing mischief to alter their powers. He created what was described as a "lightform" for Tandy and a "darkform" for Tyrone which explains how their powers manifested as they did. According to Kavanaugh's story, had D'Spayre not interfered with the development of Ty's and Tandy's powers, it would have been Tyrone who would have had the powers of light and Tandy, the powers of darkness. I think we should be happy D'Spayre interfered because although the usually slender Tyrone was rendered as being heavily-muscled as a being of light, their costumes were idiotic-looking. And unlike Tyrone, Tandy had the ability to project her dark power in the form of energy blasts.

Mantlo created characters who were not mutants, but chemically-altered youths who became wielders of the powers of light and darkness. Mantlo's concept was altered by those who believed Cloak and Dagger would be more interesting characters if they were mutants. Kavanaugh revealed that Tyrone's and Tandy's mutant powers would have been activated simply by encountering each other and being in close proximity to one another. The kidnapping need never have taken place. It wasn't the drugs that activated their powers. The drugs introduced the horror and pain into their lives that allowed them to be perverted by the influence of D'Spayre. They won free of D'Spayre's influence and lost their dark and lightforms. With the loss of those forms, they also lost some of their abilities. Cloak's darkness was just that. It no longer had the ability to subject evildoers to their worse fears. Dagger could no longer cure people of drug addictions. Cloak was no longer a being of shadow, but because his void had a powerful vacuum, he wasn't vulnerable to bullets as they would be pulled away from his body. Dagger on the other hand, had developed a bulletproof light shield.

And now, fast-forward to today. In the Marvel Knights stories, Dagger had assumed both the powers of light and darkness because Cloak went nuts and couldn't handle the darkness anymore. I hated that and for that reason, didn't purchase the book. Currently, Cloak and Dagger have powers that are exactly as Mantlo created them in the first place.

Hudlin's Panther and Cloak and Dagger aren't the only books with continuity problems. I'd be happy if this were the case because I hated that story. I though it was sick. I am referring to the Avenger's story about Ms Marvel's abduction and rape. Does she even remember that happened to her or has that simply been retconned out of continuity?

So this entire post has been my way of expressing my opinion that I believe any retcon or change of continuity Hudlin has made with regard to the Black Panther and Storm has been advantageous to both characters.

[sinjection]

The RARE occasions I think Marriage works is when the characters are either already married when they are introduced,engaged to be married when they are introduced,or are part of a superhero family team (like the FF and the BIONIC SIX).

Your opinion and I respect that. In my opinion however, a marriage that is "already baked" isn't what I'd call a marriage that "works". It's just something already established that most readers don't think about. There is no thrill associated with the first meeting of the couple, their mutual attraction, the courtship and development of their relationship and finally, the excitement of the marriage itself. Reed Richards is some 10 - 12 years older than Susan isn't he? Their marriage has had its rocky moments - Namor's interest in Susan being the major obstacle. But Sue seems to adhere to the "married but not dead" way of thinking. As she recently revealed to Emma Frost, She-Thing, She-Hulk and Alicia during a "girl's night out", she and T'Challa had a brief flirtation that had them involved in nocturnal skinny dipping without Reed's knowledge. The Panther wasn't aware that Sue and Reed were married - at least that's how that story told it - and Sue was barely able to restrain herself from committing an extra-marital sexual indiscretion. "Bionic Six"? :) I loved the art. That's all I'll say about that 'toon.

I believe that it would be a very encouraging development to have Marvel Comics' most recent marriages, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones; T'Challa and Ororo, be successful and solid marriages. There are too many broken marriages and divorces in real life. Why perpetuate this sad state of affairs in comic book entertainment?

IIRC, the negative things you listed about the WAkandians did not appear in Hudlin's first 18 issues on the current BP series (I stopped reading the book with issue #18, so I might be wrong). However, all of those negative aspects were in Priest's run on the book.

Wakandan officials opining that the U.S. and other foreigners were far too savage and selfish to be given the Wakandan-developed cure for cancer because they might use the cure as a means of hurting themselves and others, was in an early issue of Hudlin's run. It was about the time Klaw, the fake Black Knight, Radioactive Man and Rhino, with the aid of the Nigandan armed forces, attempted to overthrow Wakanda.

The Wakandans have always been xenophobic. This has been true since the earliest days of the Black Panther. There have always been those in positions of authority in Wakanda's central government or Cheiftans of Wakandas confederated territories who have plotted against him and tried to undermine his authority. M'Baku - White Gorilla, N'Jadaka - Killmonger, even Wakandan national Solomon Prey who was not a government official, but a drug dealer who teamed with one of T'Challa's former hand-maidens in his attempt to overthrow T'Challa and destroy Wakanda.

The only Luke Cage solo book I would be interested in reading is the proposed CAGE series by Dwayne McDuffie from the 90's. I'm also on the fence about reading the upcoming CAGE mini series by the creator of SAMURAI JACK (I'm a HUGE SJ fan). As for Cage's baby's name, I have no idea what her name is, but it has been recently hinted at that she may actually be a Skrull.

I am a fan of Samurai Jack as well. If Genndy Tartakovsky is associated with the upcoming Cage mini series then I'm all in. Seeing as he did such a fine job with Samurai Jack - a kung fu character - it isn't inconceivable that Iron Fist would be making an appearance in the mini series. Ah well, I'll pick up the mini series in any case.

The Cage/Jones baby a Skrull? Jessica did seem to be really angry at it the day she accepted Cage's marriage proposal. By the way, if Oliver Coipel is illustrating the Cage mini series, I'm definitely in.

[sinjection]

I read all of the previous CLOAK & DAGGER series, and I that they for the MOST PART, were boring as hell. I main problem with C&D has always beens Cloak's powers and personality.

Marvel Comics has long taken pride in creating characters who are relevant to its average audience. With a graying Baby Boom population, it could be that the age of that audience might be older as well. However, if the age of that average audience remains constant (12 - 25), is Spider-man - who like Dick Clark - seemed to defy growing up for so long relevant to an audience 12 - 25? Marvel has made Wolverine "eternal". While he may not age, Wolverine could not appear to be a youthful man to anyone younger than age 50 or so. Logan looks to be a contemporary of the comic book reader aged 45 - 50. Pathway/Laura Dean - like Cloak and Dagger, also created by Bill Mantlo with Jim Lee - has aged from what appeared to be a pre-adolescent child in 1987 to a very attractive young lady of approximately 17 - 20something today. How much older would Spider-man - who was a young adult when Pathway was a child - be today?

So while a younger reader might get into "snikt" and even some of Wolverine's or Spider-man's psychological wierdness, can they relate to those characters in issues and matters relevant to their adolescent lives? Probably not. Here's where Cloak and Dagger come in. Like Spider-man, Tandy Bowen and Tyrone Johnson are the teenagers who defy aging. Why? Because the "why" of their creation and their storyline remains relevant to youthful readers today. Cloak and Dagger are defenders and protectors of wayward youths and youths at risk. Properly utilized, I could see the duo attracting a significant aged 12 - 25 audience.

[sinjection]

I read all of the previous CLOAK & DAGGER series, and I that they for the MOST PART, were boring as hell. I main problem with C&D has always beens Cloak's powers and personality.

I've always thought Cloak and Dagger were intriguing characters. The nature of their powers makes them unique, not only in the Marvel Universe, but in the comic book industry as a whole. "Cloak and Dagger", "Eggs and Bacon", "Peanut butter and Jelly", "Cookies and milk", .... Cloak and Dagger are "hand in glove". They are a perfect fit.

Because Dagger is pretty and young, some writers have attempted to put her in super-hero groups comprised of youthful characters, but in my opinion, she always seemed out of place in those situations, even when in one instance, Dagger was given a lover, Darkhawk. I didn't mind the attempts to create a distance between Cloak and Dagger because I wanted to see Cloak independent and allowed to flourish. Both fine characters in their own right, I had to admit that when they are not together as a team, Cloak and Dagger lose something. I believe Mantlo and Hannigan designed them to be so.

Daredevil and Black Widow enjoyed an extended run as a team. But besides being superhero vigilantes, what did they really have in common with one another? Someone posted in this forum that Luke Cage and Iron Fist work so well because they are more closely associated to each other than any other two Marvel characters. There are no two characters in the comics industry more closely related to each other than Cloak and Dagger. I'm including Pietro and Wanda, Jean-Paul and Jeanne-Marie Baubier, Black Bolt and Medusa, Batman and Robin and Hawkman and Hawkgirl in this opinion.

From their publications:

"The Darkness and Light are both alike...I am Fearfully and Wonderfully made", a verse from Psalms borrowed by Mantlo as sort of the keystone signature phrase for the duo.

Cloak requires light to maintain his sanity and to contain the darkness. Dagger happily shares that light. However, there are times when Cloak feels guilty about "leeching" Dagger's light and runs from her. Because of the symbiotic nature of their powers, no matter where Cloak goes - unless he is spirited off the planet or into a different dimension - Dagger is able to feel and find him.

The two saved each other's lives during their escape from Simon Marshall. Their mutual gratitude is just one of the ties that bind them together. In issue #4 of their '83-'84 mini series, Cloak returns the excess amount of light Dagger sent out to him while he had separated from her determined not to feed on her light any longer. The effort seriously compromised Dagger's health. When Cloak apologized to Dagger for "hurting her", Dagger responded as she walked into his cape; "Oh Cloak, All that I have--all that I am--is yours for the asking." After witnessing Cloak returning light and health to Dagger, Det. Brigid O'Reilly observed what has been an oft-repeated theme with respect to Cloak and Dagger. O'Reilly knew that Cloak wasn't hurting Dagger but helping her. Dagger asked O'Reilly; "You understand don't you?" O'Reilly replied: "I...think so. In some strange way, you and Cloak make each other...whole!"

This from issue #19 of their most recently cancelled ongoing title: Referring to their mission, Dagger says; "That's what we truly represent to the streets of this troubled city, isn't it...? A chance, at least...." meaning a chance for a better tomorrow.

Today, the same problems that plagued youth since the 60's still exist. Kids are depressed and many are committing suicide - particularly girls aged 10 - 16. Cloak and Dagger are two characters available to Marvel Comics able to address such issues and other issues confronting today's youth. They could become very relevant.

As for Cloak's "boring powers". Illustrators need to be more imaginative with him. Cloak isn't able to project his darkforce as an offensive weapon. However, he has been shown to be very agile and an able hand-to-hand fighter even while wearing his long, flowing cape. The cape itself has been seen to strike "cobra-quick" at an opponent. It doesn't have to be the long, laborious enfolding and engulfing process as is sometimes shown. I never had a problem with Cloak's personality. It has been consistent with the weight of the power he wields and the responsibility he bears because of it.

If I can't have a black American Black Panther, I'll gladly take a well-written, well-illustrated, well-conceived and effective Cloak and Dagger.

[Blade X]

"Bionic Six"? :) I loved the art. That's all I'll say about that 'toon.

Wakandan officials opining that the U.S. and other foreigners were far too savage and selfish to be given the Wakandan-developed cure for cancer because they might use the cure as a means of hurting themselves and others, was in an early issue of Hudlin's run. It was about the time Klaw, the fake Black Knight, Radioactive Man and Rhino, with the aid of the Nigandan armed forces, attempted to overthrow Wakanda.

By the way, if Oliver Coipel is illustrating the Cage mini series, I'm definitely in.

The ONLY problem I had with the BIONIC SIX cartoon was that they fought Scarab and his gang in almost every single episode. IIRC, it was only in 3 or 4 episodes that they actually fought someone other then Scarab.

Thanks for clearing up (and reminding me) about where the Wakandians were shown as being not so perfect during Hudlin's run.

Genndy is drawing the book as well as writing it. www.newsarama.com had an interview with him about a month ago, and there was a full color drawing of Cage by Genndy in the interview. I personally didn't like the drawing and I'm not sure I like the idea of Genndy writing the book like a black exploitation movie.

[Blade X]

I've always thought Cloak and Dagger were intriguing characters. The nature of their powers makes them unique, not only in the Marvel Universe, but in the comic book industry as a whole. "Cloak and Dagger", "Eggs and Bacon", "Peanut butter and Jelly", "Cookies and milk", .... Cloak and Dagger are "hand in glove". They are a perfect fit.

Because Dagger is pretty and young, some writers have attempted to put her in super-hero groups comprised of youthful characters, but in my opinion, she always seemed out of place in those situations, even when in one instance, Dagger was given a lover, Darkhawk. I didn't mind the attempts to create a distance between Cloak and Dagger because I wanted to see Cloak independent and allowed to flourish. Both fine characters in their own right, I had to admit that when they are not together as a team, Cloak and Dagger lose something. I believe Mantlo and Hannigan designed them to be so.


I always liked the idea behind C&D, but MOST of their stories never really hooked me. It's a case of really wanting to like something before reading it, but end up not liking it after reading it.

Notice how Dagger is always the one writers pick to use when they have a choice of picking one of the two to use. On the flip side, notice how Cloak is always being portrayed as the stereotypical scary black man obsessed with and dependent on the beautiful young white girl.

[sinjection]

Genndy is drawing the book as well as writing it. www.newsarama.com had an interview with him about a month ago, and there was a full color drawing of Cage by Genndy in the interview. I personally didn't like the drawing and I'm not sure I like the idea of Genndy writing the book like a black exploitation movie

Uh oh....

If Cage is going to be drawn resembling Samurai Jack in his cartoon, then I may have to pass on the mini series as well. If it reads like "blaxploitation" that will only make the publication worse.

It would be a shame if Cage's mini series receives "novelty" treatment while Iron Fist's mini series is being treated with all seriousness.

[sinjection]

Notice how Dagger is always the one writers pick to use when they have a choice of picking one of the two to use. On the flip side, notice how Cloak is always being portrayed as the stereotypical scary black man obsessed with and dependent on the beautiful young white girl.


I've picked up on that as well. The Marvel Knights story featuring Daredevil's "team" annoyed me. That's why I only purchased one issue. I didn't like Daredevil's attitude toward Luke Cage. Tyrone was depowered and rendered as a goofy, do-nothing, backward-baseball-hat-wearing deadbeat who spent his days and nights playing video games at the Black Widow's pad. Meanwhile, Dagger possessed both the powers of light and of darkness.

I never minded when Dagger was placed with other characters because I hoped Cloak would get the chance to be used differently as well. Both Cloak and Dagger are able to control their powers. However, their powers are inter-dependent. On more than one occassion, they have had to use their powers against each other to cancel them out, thus preventing those powers from consuming them or growing out of control. Dagger can expend her excess light into the atmosphere and she seems fine. Cloak on the other hand needs living light to help maintain his equilibrium and control over the void. I'd like to see that aspect of his power adjusted so he isn't as dependent upon Dagger as he has been.

I don't appreciate how there are times when the Cloak and Dagger relationship seems to feed into a negative racial stereotype. But it hasn't always been that way. Many times, it is Dagger who is shown to be the indecisive member of the team, depending upon Cloak for protection and purpose. Mantlo and Hannigan portrayed the duo as being equal parts of a whole unit. Just as there are some who are irked when it seems that Cloak is the poor black boy pining after the beautiful blonde white girl, there must be others who cringed when Mantlo wrote Dagger walking willingly into Cloak's cape and telling him; "Oh Cloak, All that I have--all that I am--is yours for the asking."

I suspect that in trying to place Dagger with other characters, especially characters her age where she would be in the company of white male characters her age, some writers were trying to play down the fact that Cloak and Dagger are inextricably bound to one another. As revealed in the last issue of their most recently cancelled ongoing title, Tyrone's and Tandy's mutant powers would have remained dormant had they never met one another. Only Tyrone could have activated Tandy's power. Only Tandy could have activated Tyrone's power. I suppose Sage could have jumpstarted their powers if she had been around and recognized them as being latent mutants, but that's another issue.

[Frostbite883]

While i never read much of milestone, I supported it in principle.

But, like the first wave of Virgin releases that seemed centered on one demographic whereas i'm thinking more along the lines of a multicultural imprint.

For example, i could easily see newuniversal evolving into that.

Just so you know, Milestone did just that back in the 1990's here.

Just look it up on wikipedia and see for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milestone_Comics

And please, try to do research on a comic
imprint before assuming things without it.

[Frostbite883]

Double post.

[Frostbite883]

While i never read much of milestone, I supported it in principle.

But, like the first wave of Virgin releases that seemed centered on one demographic whereas i'm thinking more along the lines of a multicultural imprint.

For example, i could easily see newuniversal evolving into that.

Actually, Milestone did have a multicultural imprint(it wasn't
just a "black comic imprint" you know).

For example, Xombi(Korean-American), Kobalt(Caucasian-American),
Aqua-Marie(Hispanic), etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milestone_Media

[Frostbite883]

While i never read much of milestone, I supported it in principle.

But, like the first wave of Virgin releases that seemed centered on one demographic whereas i'm thinking more along the lines of a multicultural imprint.

For example, i could easily see newuniversal evolving into that.

Actually, Milestone did have a multicultural imprint(it wasn't
just a "black comic imprint" you know).

For example, Xombi(Korean-American), Kobalt(Caucasian-American),
Aqua-Marie(Hispanic), etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milestone_Media

[Frostbite883]

While i never read much of milestone, I supported it in principle.

But, like the first wave of Virgin releases that seemed centered on one demographic whereas i'm thinking more along the lines of a multicultural imprint.

For example, i could easily see newuniversal evolving into that.

Actually, Milestone did have a multicultural imprint(it wasn't
just a "black comic imprint" you know).

For example, Xombi(Korean-American), Kobalt(Caucasian-American),
Aqua-Marie(Hispanic), etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milestone_Media

[Frostbite883]

While i never read much of milestone, I supported it in principle.

But, like the first wave of Virgin releases that seemed centered on one demographic whereas i'm thinking more along the lines of a multicultural imprint.

For example, i could easily see newuniversal evolving into that.

Actually, Milestone did have a multicultural imprint(it wasn't
just a "black comic imprint" you know).

For example, Xombi(Korean-American), Kobalt(Caucasian-American),
Aqua-Marie(Hispanic), etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milestone_Media