Civil War, Initiative, World War Hulk

[jackolover]

I'm not too sure the Illuminati are to blame for all this.

What are the Illuminati?

They are a collection of elite hero managers, with the foresight to make decisions from a superhuman perspective. Why is that wrong? I can't aswer that just yet, except to ask, why do the superhuman community need to make these decisions?

We know from Avengers/Justice League, that the MU heroes are not respected like in the DC universe. Can we get to the heart of why not? Why aren't the MU heroes idolised and allowed to be left in peace? Superman says it's because the MU heroes are semi-villianous, and he is angry that this universe has been let down by it's heroes.

So, from the viewpoint of the suspect, semi-heroic heroes, what steps do the heroes of the MU have to take to maintain THEIR status quo? And what steps do the public in the MU have to take, to discipline a hero community, that has let them down? (I know. I am making a lot of assumptions here, like, the public have consciously felt like the heroes were sub-standard, somehow).

In many ways the MU has degenerated from a stable, non-superhero world (aka 1960), to one 'poisoned' by the influence of superhumans, who don't put the community first. So the public perception, then, insists on morals from it's heroes, above those of the non-powered public, which the heroes don't deliver on. In short, the MU superheroes are abbreviated superheroes, who take shortcuts to achieve the protection of the public.

So we get back to the Illuminati. Here are the representatives of this clique of abbreviated heroes. At some point in history, the public will ask for better representation from their protectors, than just slapped-together security, while the public suffers.

The Illuminati was an attempt at a reaction from the superhumans to a public backlash.

Is there something integrily flawed about the Marvel Universe? If so, then what we are addressing in the 3 dramas of the thread title, is the realisation that MU superheroes exhibit more random violence, than their DC counterparts. The DC universe would never degenerate into a Civil War, an orchestrated legislated Innitiative, or eat it's own young, like WWH.

And what do I offer as the culprit that spoils the MU, if not the Illuminati? It has to be the human failings that is so exemplified in the story of Peter Parker, Spiderman. He is the hallmark of the MU. The example that all the other heroes reflect, or aspire too. In this one character, all the angst, fear, uncertainty that is exhibited in the heroes of the MU is most showcased.

What do you think of the flaw in the MU?

[Cosmic Book Fan]

The main flaw in the MU right now is the newest batch of writers trying to impose certain real world concepts that haven't ever been a part of the MU.

The concepts of severe collateral damage and public backlash have never been a good fit in the MU, and they still aren't. Top that off with the fact that despite the interesting stories made possible with these concepts, they have been consistently botched in the end.

The next biggest flaw in the MU is that there isn't enough focus on the cosmic aspects of the MU. Only one ongoing (Nova) and a handful of Minis doesn't do this very rich part of the MU justice, no matter how Awesome Annihilation has been.

[jackolover]

The main flaw in the MU right now is the newest batch of writers trying to impose certain real world concepts that haven't ever been a part of the MU.

The concepts of severe collateral damage and public backlash have never been a good fit in the MU, and they still aren't. Top that off with the fact that despite the interesting stories made possible with these concepts, they have been consistently botched in the end.

These events have had a lot of popularity, so Marvel have been riding on a lucrative wave off the back of the 3 in the title.

However, I would like to address your comment that 'they have been consistently botched in the end'.

If what you say is correct, wouldn't these events have lost their ability to hold an ordiences interest? To my understanding, the CW has inflamed passions way past the end of the event; Innitiative is strongly backed way into concepts inception; and WWH has huge fan based involvement, although it hasn't ended yet.

So how have the real world concepts been badly handled?

If anything, the real world concepts have spoiled me against the mundane fair we got before them.

[StoneGold]

So how have the real world concepts been badly handled?

.

In this case, badly handled means he didn't like them. As opposed to sales going down. Which is the opposite of what has happened. And yes, I know, money doesn't mean it's good. But it doesn't hurt, either.

[stingerman]

I'm not too sure the Illuminati are to blame for all this.

What are the Illuminati?

They are a collection of elite hero managers, with the foresight to make decisions from a superhuman perspective. Why is that wrong? I can't aswer that just yet, except to ask, why do the superhuman community need to make these decisions?

We know from Avengers/Justice League, that the MU heroes are not respected like in the DC universe. Can we get to the heart of why not? Why aren't the MU heroes idolised and allowed to be left in peace? Superman says it's because the MU heroes are semi-villianous, and he is angry that this universe has been let down by it's heroes.

So, from the viewpoint of the suspect, semi-heroic heroes, what steps do the heroes of the MU have to take to maintain THEIR status quo? And what steps do the public in the MU have to take, to discipline a hero community, that has let them down? (I know. I am making a lot of assumptions here, like, the public have consciously felt like the heroes were sub-standard, somehow).

In many ways the MU has degenerated from a stable, non-superhero world (aka 1960), to one 'poisoned' by the influence of superhumans, who don't put the community first. So the public perception, then, insists on morals from it's heroes, above those of the non-powered public, which the heroes don't deliver on. In short, the MU superheroes are abbreviated superheroes, who take shortcuts to achieve the protection of the public.

So we get back to the Illuminati. Here are the representatives of this clique of abbreviated heroes. At some point in history, the public will ask for better representation from their protectors, than just slapped-together security, while the public suffers.

The Illuminati was an attempt at a reaction from the superhumans to a public backlash.

Is there something integrily flawed about the Marvel Universe? If so, then what we are addressing in the 3 dramas of the thread title, is the realisation that MU superheroes exhibit more random violence, than their DC counterparts. The DC universe would never degenerate into a Civil War, an orchestrated legislated Innitiative, or eat it's own young, like WWH.

And what do I offer as the culprit that spoils the MU, if not the Illuminati? It has to be the human failings that is so exemplified in the story of Peter Parker, Spiderman. He is the hallmark of the MU. The example that all the other heroes reflect, or aspire too. In this one character, all the angst, fear, uncertainty that is exhibited in the heroes of the MU is most showcased.

What do you think of the flaw in the MU?

Yeah. A while ago I posted that I thought the Immuninati were behind Civil War. If you know about the Illuminati in our world that they based it on you might agree.

[jackolover]

Yeah. A while ago I posted that I thought the Immuninati were behind Civil War. If you know about the Illuminati in our world that they based it on you might agree.


I know the Illuminati were involved with trying to be proactive about the SHRA before Stamford. But I fail to see how, after Dr. Strange and Namor dropped out, that the Illuminati made the decision that the SHRA was the only course of action. Tony and Reed did, but certainly not all the Illuminati.

I might add, the very begginings of all the troubles between superhumans and the government, date back to the end of the cold war. From then on, Nick Fury lost his sway in the White House, and more and more, the government operated without Nick Furys involvement. Factor this in with the government being more proactive on an international and home security front, and you have a formula where the superheroes have just as less a sway as what Nick Fury was reduced too. The US government wanted all the authority in the MU, and not just the domestic authority. Thus, people like Captain America were going to be treated just like Nick Fury was, when Nick wanted the US government to do something about Latvaria, and so we had Secret War, when Nick Fury was ignored. Did we get Civil War when Cap was ignored, as well?

[FrogMan]

We know from Avengers/Justice League, that the MU heroes are not respected like in the DC universe. Can we get to the heart of why not? Why aren't the MU heroes idolised and allowed to be left in peace? Superman says it's because the MU heroes are semi-villianous, and he is angry that this universe has been let down by it's heroes.



Superman said that? What the hell does he know? :) The guy doesn't even know enough to put his underwear UNDER his pants.

[jackolover]

Superman said that? What the hell does he know? :) The guy doesn't even know enough to put his underwear UNDER his pants.

True enough. What the hell does he know? Truth justice and the American way. I suppose Clark is the poster boy of government conservatism. Mid-western politeness, country town helpfullness; coupled with that, being the strongest one there is, without the psychosis of Bruce Banner.

So who is Clark Kent to say the MU is faulty? As far as I can tell Superman has never been ridiculed for his stunning non-casualty saves, and he hasn't had JJJ 's Daily Bugle running bad-spin ever. Superman is a guy who thinks everything he does is right. Whose going to contradict him? Batman? The whole of Metropolis and the DC world, only see this god, who saves.

From that standpoint, Clark Kent has all this great self-esteem, nurtured by everyone around him, he's going to have a different opinion as to what the grubby MU is like. About the only character who doesn't fit into the MU is Captain America. Steve Rogers fits the same template as Clark Kent, and people love him, but Clark had all the benefits of adoration, while Cap was stuck with the backwater dimension, where every citizen was a sceptic. Cap had no hope of changing the MU. Iron Man was a child of the MU, with faults and foibles. Tony Stark was the natural leader of the pro-side. How Peter Parker ended up on Caps side, is still a mystery. I'm rambling now.

Clark Kent had the credentials of man who went through life without a care in the world. He only had to look after the little people, and he thought the MU should be just as pleasant, if that universe had superheroes. When Clark saw that it wasn't as rosy as the DC universe, he was acid in criticism of it's heroes who didn't exemplify the sweetness and wholesomeness of his own world. Cap was the anomoly of the MU, and Batman should have been a denizen of the MU, in that case.

[darkhawk76]

I wouldn't have such a big problem with SHRA if Reed wasn't contridicting himself

what's difference between MRA that Reed testified against and SHRA which Reed was so in favour of

[jackolover]

I wouldn't have such a big problem with SHRA if Reed wasn't contridicting himself

what's difference between MRA that Reed testified against and SHRA which Reed was so in favour of

Gee, you make this difficult.

I am not a supporter of Reeds, at the moment. Reed has acted like he lost his scrupples somewhere, or, got the fear impending doom into him. Or, he's just a money grabbing, self-interested, yuppie.

So if you want to know what the difference is between MRA and SHRA, we are talking two different Reed Richards. In the MRA case, Reed was Noble. In the SHRA case, Reed was the self-interested idealist, with delusions of king-ship, that layed out world-ranging schemes to help the underprivedged. In this euphoria of Reeds, the SHRA was reasonable concept to his mind, in that it played into the projections of disaster, that he had calculated. And here is the mental state that makes these calculations - a feat of distraction in a field of physics that hasn't been invented yet. How can any man process sanily if he is imbibed into a cronal bout of gymnastics? It was a rare moment, that Sue couldn't snap him out of it.

[jackolover]

Yeah. A while ago I posted that I thought the Illuminati were behind Civil War. If you know about the Illuminati in our world that they based it on you might agree.

Okay, lets say for example the MU Illuminati were the same as this theoretical Illuminati that exists in the real world. Wouldn't the MU variety be after manipulating the whole world? I don't see that in the books.

I see the Illuminati being proactive in their own sphere of influence, the super humans, and super villain threats, not manipulating the share markets or hording the resources of the planet for their own purposes.

I see a big difference between the MU Illuminati and what you suggest is a real world variety.

[Tobias Drake]

The main flaw in the MU right now is the newest batch of writers trying to impose certain real world concepts that haven't ever been a part of the MU.

The concepts of severe collateral damage and public backlash have never been a good fit in the MU, and they still aren't.

Why not? I would call it an extension of the nature of the MU, where not only are heroes allowed to be flawed, but their actions and their adventures are flawed as well. What good is a flawed hero that, once, he puts on his uniform, does everything 100% perfect, never makes a mistake, and everyone loves him and adores him? That defeats the entire purpose of the flawed hero.

It's not just the heroes that are flawed. It's the world itself; everything from their adventures with missteps, mistakes, and bad decisions to the people around them who, rather than cheer on anyone they see in tights, are themselves flawed individuals who are terrified of these anonymous, abstract metahuman figures that dominate their lives.

If the world was perfect, the public was absolutely in love with heroes, and the heroes were perfect and never screwed up, the world would be DC.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

If the world was perfect, the public was absolutely in love with heroes, and the heroes were perfect and never screwed up, the world would be DC.

I have no idea what DC you guys are talking about, because the one I read sure isn't that.

DC and Marvel are far more similar than advertised.

[ivesaidway2much]

Okay, lets say for example the MU Illuminati were the same as this theoretical Illuminati that exists in the real world. Wouldn't the MU variety be after manipulating the whole world? I don't see that in the books.

I see the Illuminati being proactive in their own sphere of influence, the super humans, and super villain threats, not manipulating the share markets or hording the resources of the planet for their own purposes.

I see a big difference between the MU Illuminati and what you suggest is a real world variety.Tony practically went to war with the U.S. the first time he discovered that his armor technology was being used without his permission by heroes and villains. He also engaged in war profiteering during Civil War. Namor rarely shares any of the ancient knowledge of Atlantis with the surface world. Dr. Strange keeps all kinds of mega-powerful occult items hoarded away for himself. Black Bolt did go to war with the U.S. when the military got the Terrigen crystals, and he nearly killed Quicksilver just to get a few shards of the crystals away from him. The Illuminati even wanted to include Black Panther, who has a stranglehold on the world's supply of vibranium and working cures for cancer.

[jackolover]

Tony practically went to war with the U.S. the first time he discovered that his armor technology was being used without his permission by heroes and villains. He also engaged in war profiteering during Civil War. Namor rarely shares any of the ancient knowledge of Atlantis with the surface world. Dr. Strange keeps all kinds of mega-powerful occult items hoarded away for himself. Black Bolt did go to war with the U.S. when the military got the Terrigen crystals, and he nearly killed Quicksilver just to get a few shards of the crystals away from him. The Illuminati even wanted to include Black Panther, who has a stranglehold on the world's supply of vibranium and working cures for cancer.

So you're saying what?

Iron Man hordes Stark tech, Namor hordes Atlantean tech, Black Bolt hordes the Terrigen Crystals, and Black Panther hordes vibranium.

Well the US hordes Atom Bombs, and Innitiative Black opps teams, and Sentinels.

What's you're point?

I was making the point that the Illuminati as a group are not manipulating anything in the world. That they OWN the technology that they were born into, or invented, is hardly evidence that the Illuminati are manipulating the world with their private responsibilities. If the Illuminati were using the Terrigen mists or vibranium to further their agenda of world security, I might agree.

[XPac]

Okay, lets say for example the MU Illuminati were the same as this theoretical Illuminati that exists in the real world. Wouldn't the MU variety be after manipulating the whole world? I don't see that in the books.

I see the Illuminati being proactive in their own sphere of influence, the super humans, and super villain threats, not manipulating the share markets or hording the resources of the planet for their own purposes.

I see a big difference between the MU Illuminati and what you suggest is a real world variety.

I'm not sure the Illuminati as a whole are manipulating the world... but I think Tony and Reed (along with Hank) seem to be. We know of their 43 plans, which eventually grows into 101 to bring about utopia in the world.

[XPac]

Why not? I would call it an extension of the nature of the MU, where not only are heroes allowed to be flawed, but their actions and their adventures are flawed as well. What good is a flawed hero that, once, he puts on his uniform, does everything 100% perfect, never makes a mistake, and everyone loves him and adores him? That defeats the entire purpose of the flawed hero.

It's not just the heroes that are flawed. It's the world itself; everything from their adventures with missteps, mistakes, and bad decisions to the people around them who, rather than cheer on anyone they see in tights, are themselves flawed individuals who are terrified of these anonymous, abstract metahuman figures that dominate their lives.

If the world was perfect, the public was absolutely in love with heroes, and the heroes were perfect and never screwed up, the world would be DC.

Well, that's the problem... marvel does want flawed heroes that DO make mistakes. But in the same breath, they don't want all their heroes sitting in jail cells, or even being tied up in court 24/7.

It's fine for specific stories where the writer wants to address the realism of collateral damage, and legal and personal issues that come out of that. But comics are fantasy escapism... so a lot of times those aren't really the issues that writers want to spend their time dealing with.

[mikekerr3]

Okay, lets say for example the MU Illuminati were the same as this theoretical Illuminati that exists in the real world. Wouldn't the MU variety be after manipulating the whole world? I don't see that in the books.

I see the Illuminati being proactive in their own sphere of influence, the super humans, and super villain threats, not manipulating the share markets or hording the resources of the planet for their own purposes.

I see a big difference between the MU Illuminati and what you suggest is a real world variety.

The Majority of the Illuminati in the MU opposed the SHRA, only two members when rouge and supported it. Two men with egos where thier soul should be. Strange should have just Shut Tony and Reed down instead of copping out.

[Tobias Drake]

I'm not sure the Illuminati as a whole are manipulating the world... but I think Tony and Reed (along with Hank) seem to be. We know of their 43 plans, which eventually grows into 101 to bring about utopia in the world.

In their defense, we also know that the 101 succeed in bringing about utopia in the world.

[Tobias Drake]

Well, that's the problem... marvel does want flawed heroes that DO make mistakes. But in the same breath, they don't want all their heroes sitting in jail cells, or even being tied up in court 24/7.

It's fine for specific stories where the writer wants to address the realism of collateral damage, and legal and personal issues that come out of that. But comics are fantasy escapism... so a lot of times those aren't really the issues that writers want to spend their time dealing with.

True. I'd argue things aren't that much different than they were before; it's just the presentation that's changed. Sure, the public aren't falling over themselves to swoon over all the superheroes and chatting about how wonderful life in a superhero world is. But when have they ever? Ask Spider-Man, the Hulk, or the X-Men if harsh public backlash is a new thing. To me, it doesn't seem like that much has actually changed; it's the same basic dynamics, just presented in a more modern tone.

[jackolover]

I'm not sure the Illuminati as a whole are manipulating the world... but I think Tony and Reed (along with Hank) seem to be. We know of their 43 plans, which eventually grows into 101 to bring about utopia in the world.

I wonder how much of the 101 plans the government is aware of? Or even if the government knows that 101 plans exist between these 3 people? My feeling is the 101 plans has full government sanction, considering the first 40 odd plans have been implimented. So if that is true, then I don't think manipulation is the best description. Maybe the Initiative incorparates the 101 plans as part of the super human SHRA implimentation.

But even if the the 101 plans is being sanctioned by government, the fact 3 people are being able to carry out 'their' plans, smacks of handing the role of government over to private hands, despite government cooperation in the fact.

[XPac]

In their defense, we also know that the 101 succeed in bringing about utopia in the world.

Which is kinda funny since McDuffie has flat out said he thought Reed was wrong.

Either way, it's time travel. We see beings from the future going back in time and telling us about a million differnet versions of what will be. . Sometimes the future has sentinals, sometimes it's ruled by Kang, and in McDuffie's Reed has brought about utopia.

So we'll see. I'd be suprised McDuffie created THE official set in stone marvel universe future that marvel from this point on will build towards.

[mikekerr3]

In their defense, we also know that the 101 succeed in bringing about utopia in the world.

So ther future that Layla Miller is in is not the future? Bishop didn't spend time in a hellish world, Cable didn't. Please the idea of being able to predict a single future is stupid even by comic book standards. It is the Idea of a single writer not how its been shown in the MU in the past or even in the other MU books.
\
That BS just came from trying to show Reed richard as something other than a authoritarian thug,

[jackolover]

So ther future that Layla Miller is in is not the future? Bishop didn't spend time in a hellish world, Cable didn't. Please the idea of being able to predict a single future is stupid even by comic book standards. It is the Idea of a single writer not how its been shown in the MU in the past or even in the other MU books.
\
That BS just came from trying to show Reed richard as something other than a authoritarian thug,

Yeah, I always wondererd how far forward the X-Men futures went, because the nice an rosy future of Reed Richards sure doesn't tally with what Cable keeps spouting anytime anybody listens to him.

[XPac]

Yeah, I always wondererd how far forward the X-Men futures went, because the nice an rosy future of Reed Richards sure doesn't tally with what Cable keeps spouting anytime anybody listens to him.

That's the thing with people coming from the future. It really only takes one thing to be different, and suddenly that future is a different alternate timeline.

Days of Future Past was going to be our future... but it changed.

Reeds future isn't proof that his 101 will work again... it's just the possibility that it might (though in comic book terms it never will... superheroes can never really solve all the worlds problems).

[Tobias Drake]

Either way, it's time travel. We see beings from the future going back in time and telling us about a million differnet versions of what will be. . Sometimes the future has sentinals, sometimes it's ruled by Kang, and in McDuffie's Reed has brought about utopia.

Yeah, but it's already been clarified that there are alternate futures, it is specifically the future of this timeline, and that the timeline has not been split, erego, it will still be the future of this timeline. They went to great effort to explain that this is not an alternate future.

So ther future that Layla Miller is in is not the future? Bishop didn't spend time in a hellish world, Cable didn't. Please the idea of being able to predict a single future is stupid even by comic book standards. It is the Idea of a single writer not how its been shown in the MU in the past or even in the other MU books.
\
That BS just came from trying to show Reed richard as something other than a authoritarian thug,

Yeah, I always wondererd how far forward the X-Men futures went, because the nice an rosy future of Reed Richards sure doesn't tally with what Cable keeps spouting anytime anybody listens to him.

Those are alternate futures. This is very decidedly not as was explained in great detail. Hell, Layla's is even pointedly shown to be an alternate future before she ever even goes there.

[XPac]

Yeah, but it's already been clarified that there are alternate futures, it is specifically the future of this timeline, and that the timeline has not been split, erego, it will still be the future of this timeline. They went to great effort to explain that this is not an alternate future.





Those are alternate futures. This is very decidedly not as was explained in great detail. Hell, Layla's is even pointedly shown to be an alternate future before she ever even goes there.

It's the future of this timeline... until a divergence occurs that could make it an alternate one. Again, Days of Future Past WAS suppossed to be the future of this timeline until something changed.

Time travel works 6 different ways in 6 different books. This is just McDuffie throwing his hat into the ring. Gruenwald tried establishing some rules back in the day... but it didn't stick. For storytelling purposes writers will establish whatever rules they feel are necessary for their particular story. McDuffie tried doing some kind of power play where HIS rules and HIS future is exactly what will happen... but we all know that will be ignored the next time someone else decides to use time travel to avert some other alternate future.

[Tobias Drake]

It's the future of this timeline... until a divergence occurs that could make it an alternate one. Again, Days of Future Past WAS suppossed to be the future of this timeline until something changed.

Time travel works 6 different ways in 6 different books. This is just McDuffie throwing his hat into the ring. Gruenwald tried establishing some rules back in the day... but it didn't stick. For storytelling purposes writers will establish whatever rules they feel are necessary for their particular story. McDuffie tried doing some kind of power play where HIS rules and HIS future is exactly what will happen... but we all know that will be ignored the next time someone else decides to use time travel to avert some other alternate future.

Granted. But it at least has the credibility. And even if it didn't, the fact that this is the logical conclusion of Reed's work certainly stands as a point in his favor. We have seen that Reed's actions will bring about utopia, and we have seen nothing to suggest it won't other than speculation.

That Apocalypse only destroys the world in an alternate future that may or may not come to pass doesn't make him any less of a threat.

[XPac]

Granted. But it at least has the credibility. And even if it didn't, the fact that this is the logical conclusion of Reed's work certainly stands as a point in his favor. We have seen that Reed's actions will bring about utopia, and we have seen nothing to suggest it won't other than speculation.

That Apocalypse only destroys the world in an alternate future that may or may not come to pass doesn't make him any less of a threat.

Sure... but the point is that it doesn't necessariy excuse any of the attrociteis Reed has (or may) committed in order to get there either. Again, even the author of the story said he personally felt Reed was wrong.

Maybe everything after 42 can be done in a more honest and legal way, in which case more power to him. But a lot of things we have seen, such as Clor and 42, came at a high cost with relatively minimal gains. If in some future that will likely never actually happen within the comics we read, they all turn out for the best then great. But right now, he deserves the criticism he's getting (and in Reeds case, it's really NOT that much).

[mikekerr3]

Yeah, but it's already been clarified that there are alternate futures, it is specifically the future of this timeline, and that the timeline has not been split, erego, it will still be the future of this timeline. They went to great effort to explain that this is not an alternate future.





Those are alternate futures. This is very decidedly not as was explained in great detail. Hell, Layla's is even pointedly shown to be an alternate future before she ever even goes there.

The point is all, futures are alternate futures. Whether the bread lands jam side up creates an equally valid alternate further, The brownian motion of atoms cause equally valid alternate futures. Ever event at from the Quantum on up creates its own divergence of futures. Quantum physics says that every diffentout come of a decision or causual event (whether Scheordinger's (sp?) cat is actually alive or dead) creates an alternat future. A single real futre is as impsossible as a single real atom, actually more so, some are just more likely than others, but all are possible,

The writers of the FF4 would have failed a review of physics class big time.For Reeds proposal to work linear time, Quantum Theory, And causeuallity would have to work, differently the resultant universe would share nothing in common with ours at the level of reality itself. All physics and wuld be diffent to the point wher things like gravity, formation of everything from atoms to suns would make thiose thing unrecognizable to us as existing at all if they could exist. The possiblity that even an atom in that universe would be recognizable as such would be extrememly improbable. You are talking about a universe with diferent rules from the most basic of things up. There would be no frame of reference whe could share, we could even perceive that universe other that in our imaginations.

[jackolover]

The point is all, futures are alternate futures. Whether the bread lands jam side up creates an equally valid alternate further, The brownian motion of atoms cause equally valid alternate futures. Ever event at from the Quantum on up creates its own divergence of futures. Quantum physics says that every diffentout come of a decision or causual event (whether Scheordinger's (sp?) cat is actually alive or dead) creates an alternat future. A single real futre is as impsossible as a single real atom, actually more so, some are just more likely than others, but all are possible,

The writers of the FF4 would have failed a review of physics class big time.For Reeds proposal to work linear time, Quantum Theory, And causeuallity would have to work, differently the resultant universe would share nothing in common with ours at the level of reality itself. All physics and wuld be diffent to the point wher things like gravity, formation of everything from atoms to suns would make thiose thing unrecognizable to us as existing at all if they could exist. The possiblity that even an atom in that universe would be recognizable as such would be extrememly improbable. You are talking about a universe with diferent rules from the most basic of things up. There would be no frame of reference whe could share, we could even perceive that universe other that in our imaginations.

I'm suggesting the Reed Richards of this Marvel world, has it all over Schroedinger and his cat, and has the inside running over all of us, as to what reality is, or isn't. I'd probably go with Reed as the authority on MARVEL physics, as against real world physics, seeing as he is probably the smartest man in the world, due to his flexible imagination abilities.

And as smart as Reed is, I would still go by Sue Richards instincts, that the FF have overcome even greater problems than the SHRA, and would in the future. I don't see how Reeds formulations can be held up to scutiny, when the future can be shifted, (and has already, since Death in the Family, because this is a another future, because Torch saved his sister), and as smart as Reed is, and as rational as his future trends are made to be, what's to say some world shattering event doesn't alter that whole social dynamic? Hell, 'No More Mutants' had to have changed the timing of that social trend.

[mikekerr3]

I'm suggesting the Reed Richards of this Marvel world, has it all over Schroedinger and his cat, and has the inside running over all of us, as to what reality is, or isn't. I'd probably go with Reed as the authority on MARVEL physics, as against real world physics, seeing as he is probably the smartest man in the world, due to his flexible imagination abilities.

And as smart as Reed is, I would still go by Sue Richards instincts, that the FF have overcome even greater problems than the SHRA, and would in the future. I don't see how Reeds formulations can be held up to scutiny, when the future can be shifted, (and has already, since Death in the Family, because this is a another future, because Torch saved his sister), and as smart as Reed is, and as rational as his future trends are made to be, what's to say some world shattering event doesn't alter that whole social dynamic? Hell, 'No More Mutants' had to have changed the timing of that social trend.

The simple thing is if Reed is right on the "true future" the next Glaactus attacks you can ignore him, as Reed know the true, Future, The Mandarin is going to fail So Tony Should take a vacation. The Skrulls won't get in the way because rReeds already calculated they won't

If he had told everyone abot the Skeu;; invasion 30 issues ago, I might have some respect for this idiotic PIS. How could he tell that 101 or Clor, for that matter was necessary and not see a major infiltration/invasion that has been going on for years.

Also if the Physics of the MU were that diffent thing lke light, mass engergy and gravity would all be gone. the chafes in the rukles are too severe. Without Quantum uncertancy the Universe we live in and the proceses necesary for Our existance don't work at all. On a Scale of 1 to 100. the differenc necessary for the Sentry to exist would be about a 2, with the True future being about 1000 Cubed

[jackolover]

The simple thing is if Reed is right on the "true future" the next Glaactus attacks you can ignore him, as Reed know the true, Future, The Mandarin is going to fail So Tony Should take a vacation. The Skrulls won't get in the way because rReeds already calculated they won't

Reed can predict groups of greater than 4, but not the cations of individuals, like Galactus or the Mandarin - Marvel Law


If he had told everyone abot the Skeu;; invasion 30 issues ago, I might have some respect for this idiotic PIS. How could he tell that 101 or Clor, for that matter was necessary and not see a major infiltration/invasion that has been going on for years.

The only explaination I can think of why Reed couldn't predict the Skrull Invasion, is that Reed didn't have the information of the full extent of the effects of the Annihilation Wave. But there must have been some social pressure for a concerted Skrull Invasion, on this level, somewhere in Reeds predictions. We'll have to wait and see.

[mikekerr3]

Reed can predict groups of greater than 4, but not the cations of individuals, like Galactus or the Mandarin - Marvel Law

One writer law, the rest of marvel views it differntly. So the X-men don't have to worry about Layla's future coming true they are doomed anyway. Only two possible futures existed with Mutants both nightmares.

Wouldn't the Mandarins actions posibly nullify anything Reed did? Glatus wound ruin his number prety badly but since his was the "true" future it wouldn't matter If the Extremis virus got out 98% of the population would die that would probable include the FF so all his calculations would be wrong.




The only explaination I can think of why Reed couldn't predict the Skrull Invasion, is that Reed didn't have the information of the full extent of the effects of the Annihilation Wave. But there must have been some social pressure for a concerted Skrull Invasion, on this level, somewhere in Reeds predictions. We'll have to wait and see.

unless he knows the heart mind a capability of every possible thing that could affect earth his calculations are useless. Every naturally mutating bacteria and virus, ever asteroid, every alien who might develope a grudge, the actions of every villian.

Idea of forecasting probable or the most probable future is reasonable, but the Idea of a single future is sheer stupidity used by a writer to patch up a damaged character. I doubt we will see more of it later. Even In the MU the logic doesn't hold up this would be a pretty serious retcon of how Marvel views the future and time. Too many stories and the entire exiles line go up in smoke.

[Tobias Drake]

One writer law, the rest of marvel views it differntly. So the X-men don't have to worry about Layla's future coming true they are doomed anyway. Only two possible futures existed with Mutants both nightmares.

Uh...we only know one of the two possible futures. Where do you get that both are nightmares?

Wouldn't the Mandarins actions posibly nullify anything Reed did? Glatus wound ruin his number prety badly but since his was the "true" future it wouldn't matter If the Extremis virus got out 98% of the population would die that would probable include the FF so all his calculations would be wrong.[/quote]

Unless it doesn't get out. If the Extremis virus gets out, then it would prove Reed's future wrong. But in Reed's future, the Extremis virus obviously didn't get out. So if the Extremis virus doesn't get out, and 97.5% of the population does not get wiped out, it proves Reed's calculations were, in fact, correct about Extremis not wiping out 97.5% of the population. That's the funny thing about the future; what could happen to change it doesn't matter if it doesn't happen. The possibility of changing the future means nothing if the future is not changed.

[XPac]

The only explaination I can think of why Reed couldn't predict the Skrull Invasion, is that Reed didn't have the information of the full extent of the effects of the Annihilation Wave. But there must have been some social pressure for a concerted Skrull Invasion, on this level, somewhere in Reeds predictions. We'll have to wait and see.

Reed actually did learn a bit about the Annihilation wave, ironially from a skrull. Not that he did jack about it.

I sometimes wonder about Reed. Most of the time he's the smarted guy in the world, but an oddly high percentage of the time shows him being the dumbest guy in the room.

[mikekerr3]

Uh...we only know one of the two possible futures. Where do you get that both are nightmares?

Wouldn't the Mandarins actions posibly nullify anything Reed did? Glatus wound ruin his number prety badly but since his was the "true" future it wouldn't matter If the Extremis virus got out 98% of the population would die that would probable include the FF so all his calculations would be wrong.

Unless it doesn't get out. If the Extremis virus gets out, then it would prove Reed's future wrong. But in Reed's future, the Extremis virus obviously didn't get out. So if the Extremis virus doesn't get out, and 97.5% of the population does not get wiped out, it proves Reed's calculations were, in fact, correct about Extremis not wiping out 97.5% of the population. That's the funny thing about the future; what could happen to change it doesn't matter if it doesn't happen. The possibility of changing the future means nothing if the future is not changed.[/QUOTE]

They talked about amny futures, You are right obe is an unknown one is hell on the rest there are no mutants. Please explain this If reed is right ther are no other possible futures just the one he predicted, Where is layla? Where did Bishop and Cable come from? They both come from 616 how it that possible?

If reed can accurately tell the future and it is a uttopia as stated why are they worring so muchm No need to fight the result is already known, the Manderin will lose without Stark lifting a hand, the Skrulls will have no impact. Just lay on the beach nothing you do will make any diffence as the future is already known And Reeds predictions are always right since he is so smart.

This is just a writer biteing off a chunk of canon whitch everybody will ignore since it makes all the actions of thew Super-heros kind of pointless.

[mikekerr3]

Reed actually did learn a bit about the Annihilation wave, ironially from a skrull. Not that he did jack about it.

I sometimes wonder about Reed. Most of the time he's the smarted guy in the world, but an oddly high percentage of the time shows him being the dumbest guy in the room.


The existance of lif in th unverse was at stake but somehow, Clor and 42 more important. The results of loseing to the Anniliation wave were worse than any possble outcome of the Civil war and the doofus just decided to ignore it, that would have been out of Character for even the Skrull, It was just plain stupid.

We are supposed to trusts this guys math? He put the earth at risk and didn't bother to tell anyone?

[Tobias Drake]

They talked about amny futures, You are right obe is an unknown one is hell on the rest there are no mutants. Please explain this If reed is right ther are no other possible futures just the one he predicted, Where is layla? Where did Bishop and Cable come from? They both come from 616 how it that possible?

If reed can accurately tell the future and it is a uttopia as stated why are they worring so muchm No need to fight the result is already known, the Manderin will lose without Stark lifting a hand, the Skrulls will have no impact. Just lay on the beach nothing you do will make any diffence as the future is already known And Reeds predictions are always right since he is so smart.

This is just a writer biteing off a chunk of canon whitch everybody will ignore since it makes all the actions of thew Super-heros kind of pointless.

It was never stated that Reed being right means there are no other possible futures. Did you even read the storyline? They addressed the existence of alternate timelines and possible futures. The Fantastic Four of the future came back in time specifically to prevent the timeline from splitting and their utopian future from becoming an alternate future instead of the current future. Everything they are doing right now builds to the future that the Future Fantastic Four came from. That doesn't mean it cannot be changed. It means that if everything continues as it is, if everyone does what they will do, without someone from their future, such as Doom, coming back and screwing it all up, their future will come to pass.

That also does not mean that everyone can just stop doing things. The Extremis crisis, for example, can't just be ignored, because it happened in Future Fantastic Four's timeline as well, and it was handled exactly the way it's being handled right now.

[XPac]

The existance of lif in th unverse was at stake but somehow, Clor and 42 more important. The results of loseing to the Anniliation wave were worse than any possble outcome of the Civil war and the doofus just decided to ignore it, that would have been out of Character for even the Skrull, It was just plain stupid.

We are supposed to trusts this guys math? He put the earth at risk and didn't bother to tell anyone?

I guess Reed was so sure that the junk on his wall was right, that he didn't worry about the Annihilation Wave reaching earth and destroying mankind. Something stupid like that.

All I can say is I'm actually kinda glad now that McDuddie's not writing the FF anymore.

[jackolover]

Why not? I would call it an extension of the nature of the MU, where not only are heroes allowed to be flawed, but their actions and their adventures are flawed as well. What good is a flawed hero that, once, he puts on his uniform, does everything 100% perfect, never makes a mistake, and everyone loves him and adores him? That defeats the entire purpose of the flawed hero.

It's not just the heroes that are flawed. It's the world itself; everything from their adventures with missteps, mistakes, and bad decisions to the people around them who, rather than cheer on anyone they see in tights, are themselves flawed individuals who are terrified of these anonymous, abstract metahuman figures that dominate their lives.

If the world was perfect, the public was absolutely in love with heroes, and the heroes were perfect and never screwed up, the world would be DC.

Okay, this is a good preamble,

Now I would like to bring in views from the Initiative books themselves. From Tbolts, we are told by Norman Osborn that there is now a New Order, and says Norman, "I am the New Order".
The Losers also reference a New Order, and these kids have tried to suppress the urge to use their powers as a result.
Next comes Maria Hill as she states to Carol Danvers in Ms Marvel, "This country is trying to recover from a very dark time, right now". This can mean the CW or, it could mean the end of the vigilante era, was the very dark time, in the minds of the humans.
We think the Heroes for Hire was one of the good things to come from the Initiative, but they were constantly scewed by SHIELD and Paladan. They never got paid for their jobs, and hired for procuring Moonboy, eventually handed Moonboy over to Paladan and got screwed again at he end of the team, and that brke them up.

Even What If? CW paints a grim picture even if it wasn't expressly stated, that upon Tony Starks death, the government confiscated all his estate, including the DNA of Thor and plans to make a cloned cyborg from him, otherwise, how would that have come about in that story? Someone must have taken it and the government got their hands on it, and ran with it.

My point is, as Tobias states in his post, the MU is flawed, and up till now the humans weren't interested in the collateral damage the superhumans messed up with. The alternative (Initiative) appears to be the humans breathing a collective sigh of relief, that the Initiative has has taken over control of the vigilante era and made the MU a Human Era.

Is the Human Era any better than the Vigilante Era? I know the humans are more confortable with the corruption and deceit involved in SHIELD, and the CSA, because that is human corruption, and human corruption is set at levels that don't have the sort of collateral damage as the vigilante era had. Is this true?

From my perspective of the MU, with a long tradition of super heroes, the humans can try to be the lord and master of their destiny for a while, but eventually, the truth comes out. There are forces in the Marvel Universe that don't sit still, like Lateria and Attalan and Atlantis, and just let you run them into the ground. It is a pretty picture to think that humans controlling all super human activity will bring stabilty to their lives. JJJameson, the voice of the scared majority, thinks he can sleep better in his bed at night, knowing that Ms Marvel is out there finding the Mutant altering bombs AIM is testing on Indianapolis.

But what happens when the likes of Norman Osborn climbs the ladders of power in his lovely New Order, and the Bullseyes of this world are 'utilised' for the benefit of all. But what happens when all the Bullseyes that used to be chased down and hunted are now part of the organisation. We are not talking rogue cops working for the mob. These are psychopaths with no redeeming qualities, granted they are being distracted by the system, but in the long run, their influence filters down through the system as well. Corruption, on a Human scale is bad enough. Corruption on a superhuman scale shouldn't have been overseen by humans, and that was the big mistake.