WORLD WAR HULK Battle Debate Thread

[seekquaze]

This is a debate I've read different opinions on for the last several days. Some think The Hulk did stop the juggernaut. Others think he just greatly slowed him down. Others think the Juggeranut was not in foward motion at all. One post I read even claimed to have an e-mail from the writer that stated the Hulk stopped the Juggeranut for a moment. Doubt was thrown on this claim since the post was made by a relativly unknown hulk fan who preceded to insult the poster who questioned the validity of his claim afterwards.

What do you think or has anything been said? Or is it left ambiguious on purpose?

[ExodusCloak]

Is this what everyone's talking about?

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff191/Galan_photos/wwh_juggs4.jpg

From the look of Hulks footing it looks like Big Green is slowly being pushed back. That and doesn't Juggs have a momentum draining shield which he has to consciously activate. Doesn't look like he used it there.

[InfinityCorp]

After this 3 book series is over we learn that this visit to the X-Mansion is during the 24 hour evacuation deadline the Hulk gave... everyone.

So, during that time period less than 24 hours the Hulk pretty much dispatched every active X-Man I can think of. When Juggs gets repowered and comes after the Hulk he may indeed have not been stopped by the Hulk. They tussle and smash each other with shots that would certainly drop just about anyone else. Then they lock up and just before the force of their clash destroys the foundation of the mansion Hulk ends it. The beauty of this is that the Hulk has learned, and just moves out of the way helps Juggs along in the direction his "unstoppable" momentum is going. He continues on for miles through walls ect.. I thought this was very tactfully written because it leaves room for endless debate about who won, but it seems pretty obvious to me the Hulk has become a much more intelligent, skilled, and strategic fighter than Juggy.

[Superbeast]

As War under Apocalypse, yes.

In WWH #3, no. He even said if he can't stop him, he'll just redirect him.

[storm_willing_slave]

Hulk didn't stop Juggernaut and was on the verge of getting it good ut he punk'd out in the last minute!

[Mike Smash!]

Hulk didn't stop Juggernaut and was on the verge of getting it good ut he punk'd out in the last minute!The Hulk did stop the Juggernaut once, when he was a Horseman of Apocalypse.

[Superbeast]

The Hulk did stop the Juggernaut once, when he was a Horseman of Apocalypse.

great minds think alike.. and cite the same sources.

:)

Don't ban me please.

[we3ster]

I think the Hulk did stop him. If the force Juggernaut was using did move the Hulk, then the mansion would not have been in danger. That force had to go somewhere and it went into the ground, hence the cracks around them. Xavier knew knew the Hulk was going nowhere which is why he asked Juggernaut to stop.

[Lombardo!]

[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;5403487]Is this what everyone's talking about?

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff191/Galan_photos/wwh_juggs4.jpg
QUOTE]


looking at the footprints in the pavement, it's quite obvious to see Juggernaut's is pushing *forward*, while Hulk's footing is sliding *backward*.

Jugs was not stopped.

[ultimate hulk]

hulk did stop the jugs...it's just that the hulk didn't get a good foothold in the pavement..thus his feet slide back a little...:D

[Stafnbui]

[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;5403487]Is this what everyone's talking about?

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff191/Galan_photos/wwh_juggs4.jpg
QUOTE]


looking at the footprints in the pavement, it's quite obvious to see Juggernaut's is pushing *forward*, while Hulk's footing is sliding *backward*.

Jugs was not stopped.


There is no forward momentum drawn by the writers indicating anything other than a stalemate. The subsuquent drawings shows more of the same before hulk steps aside and slaps juggs on the back givinghim evenmore forward speed. This, apparently by marvel overhyped, version of the hulk firing on all cylinders should be able to stop juggs and even beat him. However seing how they have choosed to tell the battle tales throughout WWH has made me vote with my wallet and stop buying anything marvel related. They never give the hulk justice so I´ll just stop reading it.

[we3ster]

[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;5403487]Is this what everyone's talking about?

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff191/Galan_photos/wwh_juggs4.jpg
QUOTE]


looking at the footprints in the pavement, it's quite obvious to see Juggernaut's is pushing *forward*, while Hulk's footing is sliding *backward*.

Jugs was not stopped.

Yes, I can see from the footprint that Juggernaut may have moved the Hulk all of about 2 inches before Xavier came running out, thus he must have been slowing the Juggernaut down, hence the mansion then taking the brunt of the force.

Such was the power of the Hulk that once he bitch slapped Juggernaut along, he wasn't even able to stop himself landing face first in the lake.

[DaeJi]

I say the Hulk is powerful enough to slow down The Juggernaut (who will always be referred to with a captalized "The" when using his full name). But to actually stop him? I didn't see, I saw a Hulk giving his all and still being slowly pushed back. Really, one of the things that makes Cain such a threat is that he can't be stop, that when he pushs back he wins. I'm glad to see that Christos Gage seems to agree with that.

[ultimate hulk]

[QUOTE=Lombardo!;5405937]


There is no forward momentum drawn by the writers indicating anything other than a stalemate. The subsuquent drawings shows more of the same before hulk steps aside and slaps juggs on the back givinghim evenmore forward speed. This, apparently by marvel overhyped, version of the hulk firing on all cylinders should be able to stop juggs and even beat him. However seing how they have choosed to tell the battle tales throughout WWH has made me vote with my wallet and stop buying anything marvel related. They never give the hulk justice so I´ll just stop reading it.

i totally agree with u man...i really thought for a second...wwh is going to show hulk actually beating all the heroes he fought...but that's not what's going on...marvel and greg pak are all jobbing the hulk of his battles...:D

[Mike Smash!]

marvel and greg pak are all jobbing the hulk of his battles...:DJobing the Hulk? Are you serious?

In a span of 24 hours, he almost single handedly beats up three teams of X-Men, their students, Iron Man in Hulkbuster armor, She-Hulk, Ares, Doc Samson, the original Fantastic Four (and shrugged off Torch's nova blast), Black Panther, Storm, Hercules, the US Army, Dr. Strange and others?

That's being jobbed?

[Mr Fixit]

Problem is Hulk could never stop Juggernaut if what he is standing on is anything short of adamantium,the ground will always give way.

[Stafnbui]

Jobing the Hulk? Are you serious?

In a span of 24 hours, he almost single handedly beats up three teams of X-Men, their students, Iron Man in Hulkbuster armor, She-Hulk, Ares, Doc Samson, the original Fantastic Four (and shrugged off Torch's nova blast), Black Panther, Storm, Hercules, the US Army, Dr. Strange and others?

That's being jobbed?

Well since marvel, due to commersialistics reasons, chooses to include illthought excuses to all his acomplishments ( tin can nanobots, BB fight wasn´t shown, stranges morality issues of not killing the hulk with a snap of his finger etc. ) it kind of leaves a sour taste in the mouth after reading this hyped upped story of WWH. See all hulks previous defeats have always been clearcut and more so - they have come more often than his beatdowns of other foes. Now supposedly it is his time to shine for once yet still the writers leave out this details that questions hulks victories being clearcut as opposed to when he is defeated. MOre so he has been beaten at his own strength game before questioning the whole term " strongest one there is " since clearly there are characters that are stronger - thor, juggs, sentry etc. MAke a story about them instead - it would be more credible to their original characteristics. IF he is pissed of and firing on all cylinders with an unlimited strength ( and yes strong is a synomous of powerfull so the statement of strong doesn´t equal most powerfull is only a question of semantics ) - then why not stopping juggs clearcut? Seems to me that fight was just to push juggs returning to his old self storyline more than doing hulk any justice. He has been beaten by juggs before, why can´t the writers put one back for the hulk? The term " strongest one there is " have only been used to push other characters, but hulk has never accomplished any clearcut achievment in head to head battles vs other heroes to make some form of credibility for that statement. He is more and more reduced to some form of gatekeeper and I am done reading that.

[Mr Fixit]

Well since marvel, due to commersialistics reasons, chooses to include illthought excuses to all his acomplishments ( tin can nanobots, BB fight wasn´t shown, stranges morality issues of not killing the hulk with a snap of his finger etc. ) it kind of leaves a sour taste in the mouth after reading this hyped upped story of WWH. See all hulks previous defeats have always been clearcut and more so - they have come more often than his beatdowns of other foes. Now supposedly it is his time to shine for once yet still the writers leave out this details that questions hulks victories being clearcut as opposed to when he is defeated. MOre so he has been beaten at his own strength game before questioning the whole term " strongest one there is " since clearly there are characters that are stronger - thor, juggs, sentry etc. MAke a story about them instead - it would be more credible to their original characteristics. IF he is pissed of and firing on all cylinders with an unlimited strength ( and yes strong is a synomous of powerfull so the statement of strong doesn´t equal most powerfull is only a question of semantics ) - then why not stopping juggs clearcut? Seems to me that fight was just to push juggs returning to his old self storyline more than doing hulk any justice. He has been beaten by juggs before, why can´t the writers put one back for the hulk? The term " strongest one there is " have only been used to push other characters, but hulk has never accomplished any clearcut achievment in head to head battles vs other heroes to make some form of credibility for that statement. He is more and more reduced to some form of gatekeeper and I am done reading that.

I think this isn't set up for Hulk to shine in truth but it is set up to show how powerful Hulk is. Don't forget you have to take some of the critism of Hulks victories with a pinch of salt because not everyone is a Hulk fan or indeed root for him to win.

I am also of the belief that WWH isn't a story for Hulk to come out looking like an all powerful villian but rather a tale about vengence and the limits of aggression.
I have to agree on the fact that some of the battles do not tell us anything new as they seem to turn out or fought the same way as they have done time after time.
I don't feel as if WWH is being as brave as I thought it may turn out to be. That isn't to say I wanted Hulk to destroy everyone and everything but I don't see anything near as ground breaking as I was promised.

Which if it is true won't sustain me as a Hulk reader which is unfourtunate because the promise of WWH brought me back into collecting comics after a long absence.

[Bryson the Red]

Well since marvel, due to commersialistics reasons, chooses to include illthought excuses to all his acomplishments ( tin can nanobots, BB fight wasn´t shown, stranges morality issues of not killing the hulk with a snap of his finger etc. ) it kind of leaves a sour taste in the mouth after reading this hyped upped story of WWH. See all hulks previous defeats have always been clearcut and more so - they have come more often than his beatdowns of other foes. Now supposedly it is his time to shine for once yet still the writers leave out this details that questions hulks victories being clearcut as opposed to when he is defeated. MOre so he has been beaten at his own strength game before questioning the whole term " strongest one there is " since clearly there are characters that are stronger - thor, juggs, sentry etc. MAke a story about them instead - it would be more credible to their original characteristics. IF he is pissed of and firing on all cylinders with an unlimited strength ( and yes strong is a synomous of powerfull so the statement of strong doesn´t equal most powerfull is only a question of semantics ) - then why not stopping juggs clearcut? Seems to me that fight was just to push juggs returning to his old self storyline more than doing hulk any justice. He has been beaten by juggs before, why can´t the writers put one back for the hulk? The term " strongest one there is " have only been used to push other characters, but hulk has never accomplished any clearcut achievment in head to head battles vs other heroes to make some form of credibility for that statement. He is more and more reduced to some form of gatekeeper and I am done reading that.

I'd say it's mostly done because if Hulk beat up EVERYONE without any second thought then no one would believe it, and the fans of, I don't know.... EVERY character aside from the Hulk will be pissed off a bit and you don't want to risk losing readers because you wanted Hulk to smash. I mean, even if you actually think the Hulk could beat up everyone he has and could do it without a doubt, you still have to admit it would irk a lot of people. Then the only ones buy'n this big hyped tie-in would be Hulk fans, while everyone else disregards it.

[Mr Fixit]

Well since marvel, due to commersialistics reasons, chooses to include illthought excuses to all his acomplishments ( tin can nanobots, BB fight wasn´t shown, stranges morality issues of not killing the hulk with a snap of his finger etc. ) it kind of leaves a sour taste in the mouth after reading this hyped upped story of WWH. See all hulks previous defeats have always been clearcut and more so - they have come more often than his beatdowns of other foes. Now supposedly it is his time to shine for once yet still the writers leave out this details that questions hulks victories being clearcut as opposed to when he is defeated. MOre so he has been beaten at his own strength game before questioning the whole term " strongest one there is " since clearly there are characters that are stronger - thor, juggs, sentry etc. MAke a story about them instead - it would be more credible to their original characteristics. IF he is pissed of and firing on all cylinders with an unlimited strength ( and yes strong is a synomous of powerfull so the statement of strong doesn´t equal most powerfull is only a question of semantics ) - then why not stopping juggs clearcut? Seems to me that fight was just to push juggs returning to his old self storyline more than doing hulk any justice. He has been beaten by juggs before, why can´t the writers put one back for the hulk? The term " strongest one there is " have only been used to push other characters, but hulk has never accomplished any clearcut achievment in head to head battles vs other heroes to make some form of credibility for that statement. He is more and more reduced to some form of gatekeeper and I am done reading that.

I think this is set up for Hulk to shine in truth but it is set up to show how powerful Hulk is. Don't forget you have to take some of the critism of Hulks victories with a pinch of salt because not everyone is a Hulk fan or indeed root for him to win.

I am also of the belief that WWH isn't a story for Hulk to come out looking like an all powerful being but rather a tale about vengence and the limits of aggression.
I have to agree on the fact that some of the battles do not tell us anything new as they seem to turn out or fought the same way as they have done time after time.
I don't feel as if WWH is being as brave as I thought it may turn out to be. That isn't to say I wanted Hulk to destroy everyone and everything but I don't see anything near as ground breaking as I was promised.

Which if it is true won't sustain me as a Hulk reader which is unfourtunate because the promise of WWH brought me back into collecting comics after a long absence.

[Brad Barton]

I say the Hulk is powerful enough to slow down The Juggernaut (who will always be referred to with a captalized "The" when using his full name). But to actually stop him? I didn't see, I saw a Hulk giving his all and still being slowly pushed back. Really, one of the things that makes Cain such a threat is that he can't be stop, that when he pushs back he wins. I'm glad to see that Christos Gage seems to agree with that.Well, he did for ll intents and purposes stop him.

I mean, stop and think about it. If a bullet is traveling toward you at 150 mph, then it hits you and slows to 1 mph....for all intents and purposes you "stopped" that bullet.

Now, had Juggy mowed the Hulk down and left a bloody green body in his wake, then I would cede that Hulk "failed to stop" him. Instead, they met, matched strength, and the battle came to a standstill. End of story.

[CMBMOOL]

Now I'm not usually a complainer, but I recently just got the Essential Fantastic Four Vol. 2.

In the collections of stories it features the first BIG fight between the Thing vs the Hulk in the Fantastic Four #25. :D

Now I sit down reading about the issue and it came to me that the Thing went down like a punk in WWH.

Even though he gave it his best shots toward the Hulk, he still went down in ONE SHOT TOWARD THE EARS!!!. :eek:

I mean come on, I know it a Hulk like event and he is after just four guys, but at least show us a more than just one punch that brought the Thing down. :(

I mean what would make it even more riduclious is that we have Hulk saying to him after the Thing gives out his punches, "You done yet slow poke ?" Then he delivers the one-shot throw down.

I mean does anyone else feel a little upset by this, I mean I do LOVE the event so far, but doesn't anyone think that it could be a little bit more to it ? :(

[Bryson the Red]

I felt this way more than once so far.

[Jack-o-Lantern]

The Thing and the Hulk have a huge respect for each other. I think that the Hulk wasn't playing around and that's why the thing went down the way he did. Normally the Hulk is not out to hurt the Thing, but you know this time Hulk wanted Richards and the Thing was in the way.

[Jack-o-Lantern]

Well, he did for ll intents and purposes stop him.

I mean, stop and think about it. If a bullet is traveling toward you at 150 mph, then it hits you and slows to 1 mph....for all intents and purposes you "stopped" that bullet.

:confused: :confused: Yeah but at what price if you just got shot!!!!

[ultimate hulk]

Now I'm not usually a complainer, but I recently just got the Essential Fantastic Four Vol. 2.



Now I sit down reading about the issue and it came to me that the Thing went down like a punk in WWH.

Even though he gave it his best shots toward the Hulk, he still went down in ONE SHOT TOWARD THE EARS!!!. :eek:

I mean come on, I know it a Hulk like event and he is after just four guys, but at least show us a more than just one punch that brought the Thing down. :(

I mean what would make it even more riduclious is that we have Hulk saying to him after the Thing gives out his punches, "You done yet slow poke ?" Then he delivers the one-shot throw down.

I mean does anyone else feel a little upset by this, I mean I do LOVE the event so far, but doesn't anyone think that it could be a little bit more to it ? :(

i would have been insulted if the thing had took more than one punch from the hulk...the hulk shouldn't have to hit the thing for him to fall down...the thing should take one look at the hulk and fall down on his own...:D

[marty is ruling]

I don't think the whole fight was shown. If you look at the panels the Thing does get hit more than once.

Also, remember that the Thing did bloody Hulks face....it's just Hulk's healing factor is really hard for him to overcome.

The Hulk is also more powerful than he ever has been before....not just because of his anger (though that is a big part of it), but also because of that second gamma bomb that led to his rampage in Vegas.

The Thing is always getting the raw deal...mostly because he never lets himself go all out. Either because he's worried about his opponent or because there are civilians or other heroes to worry about hurting.

If the Thing gets another chance at the Hulk...I don't think he'll be able to put the Hulk down, but I do think he'll give the Hulk a much better fight. As long as the Thing doesn't go toe to toe and punch for punch with the Hulk.

The Thing is a better fighter...he's just not as strong or fast and has a normal healing factor.

[Wally_West]

Well, he did for ll intents and purposes stop him.

I mean, stop and think about it. If a bullet is traveling toward you at 150 mph, then it hits you and slows to 1 mph....for all intents and purposes you "stopped" that bullet.

Now, had Juggy mowed the Hulk down and left a bloody green body in his wake, then I would cede that Hulk "failed to stop" him. Instead, they met, matched strength, and the battle came to a standstill. End of story.

you mean like how hulk mowed down reed richards? that was glorious. I just watched fantastic 4: silver surfer style. reed is just as big a douche in the movie as he is in the comics.

[DaeJi]

Well, he did for ll intents and purposes stop him.

I mean, stop and think about it. If a bullet is traveling toward you at 150 mph, then it hits you and slows to 1 mph....for all intents and purposes you "stopped" that bullet.

Now, had Juggy mowed the Hulk down and left a bloody green body in his wake, then I would cede that Hulk "failed to stop" him. Instead, they met, matched strength, and the battle came to a standstill. End of story.

Read my post again; the Hulk slowed Juggy to barely a crawl. However, Juggy was still moving forward and Hulk was still moving back. See, when a bullet hits you (assuming it doesn't pass through your body) it stops. Goes from 150 mph to 0. No momentum. Juggy had momentum. He was still moving. The Hulk, for all his strenght, couldn't stop The Juggernaut, can't stop The Juggernaut.

That's not to say the Hulk couldn't beat Juggy, because he can. He may even be able to knock Juggy out. But stopping his movement isn't in the cards.

[Cain Marko]

It was just a test of strength. Nothing to really "stop" one way or the other. They locked up in a contest of physical might and the opposing forces started to quake the ground. I didn't see anything to indicate they were trying to push each other so much as play a game of Mercy.

[Superbeast]

He basically crushed Ben's head and sonic clapped his ears in doing so, I think Ben going down as a result of that isn't a job. He might well have fractured Ben's skull in return for Ben caving his ribs and nose in. It looks like one of Ben's rocky eyebrows was hanging off the side of his face too just as Reed turned up with the Sentry aura machine. It looked like he was bleeding all over his own hand too. We didn't see what Ben looked like for the rest of the issue so I am assuming it was a nasty mess.

[Magneto Rocks]

I think Ben did damn well to go that far.

My only problem was that if Ben was conscious, there's no way in Hell he wouldn't have got back up. It doesn't matter if he was about to die. (Which it seemed like he was, and he probably would have if not for Reed). It doesn't matter how much he hurt. But if he's conscious, then SCREW how much pain he's in, SCREW how badly he's hurt, but Ben would have and should have stood up anyway. Because he [u]never[/i] gives up. Especially with his friend's life at stake.

So I kinda wish we hadn't seen that he was still conscious but down on the ground- and not just conscious, but lucid enough to make a comment! That seemed stupid to me.

[marty is ruling]

Well the Hulk or one of his cronies might have knocked Grimm back down and finally out. There have been a lot of things happening off panel in this event.

I'll be very interested in seeing what the Hulk is going to do with The Thing once he wakes up.

[The Scribe]

I'm tired of the Thing being underplayed. He's much better than they have been writing him. :mad:

[Erik Lehnsherr]

How did he stop him? Where is the ABSOLUTE proof of him stopping full powered Marko?

[christosgage]

It was just a test of strength. Nothing to really "stop" one way or the other. They locked up in a contest of physical might and the opposing forces started to quake the ground. I didn't see anything to indicate they were trying to push each other so much as play a game of Mercy.

Cain has a point. This wasn't like in the classic Spidey story "Nothing Can Stop The Juggernaut" where he was walking forward and Spidey was trying to stop him; it was a brawl. Juggy was trying to kick the Hulk's butt, not push past him or push him backward. So the question doesn't really apply in this case.

Best,

CNG

[Mr Fixit]

To be honest The Thing is a punk and one that really should know when he is beaten.

[Magneto Rocks]

Naa. The Thing's whole thing is that he DOESN'T. He's one of the most beloved guys in the marvel universe. He stopped being one of the heavyweight strongest long ago, but that doesn't matter because Aunt Petunia's favourite nephew doesn't stay down unless he's dead, and whether he can WIN doesn't matter- the ever lovin' blue-eyed Benjamin J. Grimm will fight on LONG past the point where victory is impossible. And he won't complain either!

[marty is ruling]

I'm tired of the Thing being underplayed. He's much better than they have been writing him. :mad:

I agree.

With the Fantastic Four movies doing well, you'd think they'd push the characters a bit more than they have.

I'd like to see the Thing go into his pineapple form again (spikey if you prefer), perhaps not full-time though.

I think the writers for Fantastic Four or perhaps Marvel in general underplayed when Grimm died. This is a character that nearly every other character in the Marvel Universe knows, respects and loves. Yet...I don't remember seeing a funeral.

[dabig2]

Wow, you were disappointed with that? He received the most brutal attack the Hulk has dished out this entire event.

It's a complement that he was still freakin alive and able to talk. His rocky head should've been turned to dust.

[Lord Moon]

I think Ben did damn well to go that far.

My only problem was that if Ben was conscious, there's no way in Hell he wouldn't have got back up. It doesn't matter if he was about to die. (Which it seemed like he was, and he probably would have if not for Reed). It doesn't matter how much he hurt. But if he's conscious, then SCREW how much pain he's in, SCREW how badly he's hurt, but Ben would have and should have stood up anyway. Because he [u]never[/i] gives up. Especially with his friend's life at stake.

So I kinda wish we hadn't seen that he was still conscious but down on the ground- and not just conscious, but lucid enough to make a comment! That seemed stupid to me.

My God you have the characters exactly right. As well as the strength of the Hulk. I apologise for assuming you to be General Ross in disguise. You appear to be an old school fan or at least someone whose bothered to read the old stuff (which is a good thing to do).

[Lord Moon]

Naa. The Thing's whole thing is that he DOESN'T. He's one of the most beloved guys in the marvel universe. He stopped being one of the heavyweight strongest long ago, but that doesn't matter because Aunt Petunia's favourite nephew doesn't stay down unless he's dead, and whether he can WIN doesn't matter- the ever lovin' blue-eyed Benjamin J. Grimm will fight on LONG past the point where victory is impossible. And he won't complain either!

Precisely. He'll keep on till he's dead, and if he had the choice beyond that. He's fought undersea Namor to a standstill.

[Magneto Rocks]

My God you have the characters exactly right. As well as the strength of the Hulk. I apologise for assuming you to be General Ross in disguise. You appear to be an old school fan or at least someone whose bothered to read the old stuff (which is a good thing to do).

Why thank you. :D

What can I say, Fantastic Four is my favourite comic so I'm a fan of the characters. Not the Hulk so much, but yeah, I know Ben Grimm well enough to know that wasn't a jobbing. I can buy him going down like that. I just can't buy, like I said before, that he'd go down, no matter how hard, and not get right back up again unless he was unconscious or dead.

But I'm not entirely sure whether being General Ross in disguise is good or bad. Is it insane oldschool General Ross or lucid, sympathetic, Greg Pak General Ross? I ask merely out of curiosity :p

[Lord Moon]

Cain has a point. This wasn't like in the classic Spidey story "Nothing Can Stop The Juggernaut" where he was walking forward and Spidey was trying to stop him; it was a brawl. Juggy was trying to kick the Hulk's butt, not push past him or push him backward. So the question doesn't really apply in this case.

Best,

CNG

Horse's mouth (no offence)

[thronzeblast]

Now I'm not usually a complainer, but I recently just got the Essential Fantastic Four Vol. 2.

In the collections of stories it features the first BIG fight between the Thing vs the Hulk in the Fantastic Four #25. :D

Now I sit down reading about the issue and it came to me that the Thing went down like a punk in WWH.

Even though he gave it his best shots toward the Hulk, he still went down in ONE SHOT TOWARD THE EARS!!!. :eek:

I mean come on, I know it a Hulk like event and he is after just four guys, but at least show us a more than just one punch that brought the Thing down. :(

I mean what would make it even more riduclious is that we have Hulk saying to him after the Thing gives out his punches, "You done yet slow poke ?" Then he delivers the one-shot throw down.

I mean does anyone else feel a little upset by this, I mean I do LOVE the event so far, but doesn't anyone think that it could be a little bit more to it ? :(



I think the fight was done well it summarized thing perfectly after hulk had beat down the avenger's and taken the combined blast from storm and torch.Most people would have stayed away given up or might have hesited to take on the hulk.But not ben he jump right in and popped hulk a good one right in the face.I think that given the history these two have people might have wanted a longer fight even more than his fight with juggs.But you have to take into consideration that hulk is now on a whole other level than when he fought ben in the past so it might seem that he took down ben a little easy also i think there is only so many page's you can dedicate to one fight given all the people hulk had to take on in this issue.

This though has been my problem with the main book as opposed to the x-men tie-in there is alot of off panel stuff you see the fight start and then you see someone on the ground.Alot of the stuff is left up to the reader to speculate what happened.

[Lord Moon]

Why thank you. :D

What can I say, Fantastic Four is my favourite comic so I'm a fan of the characters. Not the Hulk so much, but yeah, I know Ben Grimm well enough to know that wasn't a jobbing. I can buy him going down like that. I just can't buy, like I said before, that he'd go down, no matter how hard, and not get right back up again unless he was unconscious or dead.

But I'm not entirely sure whether being General Ross in disguise is good or bad. Is it insane oldschool General Ross or lucid, sympathetic, Greg Pak General Ross? I ask merely out of curiosity :p

To be honest I couldn't tell the difference that well but I feel it is the excellent but insane one.

My opinion of the Thing is that, forget your Spidermen, Wolverines etc, even Captain America, he is the spirit and soul of Marvel - whether intentional or not.

[Deus ex Chris]

I think Ben did damn well to go that far.

My only problem was that if Ben was conscious, there's no way in Hell he wouldn't have got back up. It doesn't matter if he was about to die. (Which it seemed like he was, and he probably would have if not for Reed). It doesn't matter how much he hurt. But if he's conscious, then SCREW how much pain he's in, SCREW how badly he's hurt, but Ben would have and should have stood up anyway. Because he [u]never[/i] gives up. Especially with his friend's life at stake.

So I kinda wish we hadn't seen that he was still conscious but down on the ground- and not just conscious, but lucid enough to make a comment! That seemed stupid to me.
Ben took a major hit to the ears, where equilibrium is regulated. Getting up may have been literally beyond his ability, regardless of determination or how close he was to death.

[YoungThanos]

.Seems to me that fight was just to push juggs returning to his old self storyline more than doing hulk any justice. He has been beaten by juggs before, why can´t the writers put one back for the hulk?

Man please if any character's been screwed it's been the Juggernaut. And that's been going on for like the last 3 years!!!

I believe Auston was writting Uncanny back then. And from the looks of it Auston basically did no background on Cain what so ever. And then after hundreds of Juggernaut mishaps he finally trys to covers his ass by putting Juggernaut in the bed with Shehulk saying "....I guess Cytorack is taking away my powers because I'm good now" WTF!

Cain has alwas been bad even as a child in fact he thrieved on it. But he had every right to hate Charles growing up. If Charles current exposers aren't proof of what he is capable of. Then just amagine Charles first discovering his powers as a boy inflicting trial and error on Cain probing and manipulating his mind. But hey no hard feelings at all right....SMH

My point is no one holds a candle to the poor ass writting of a Marvel character like they've done Juggernaut recently. Not the Hulk not even Apocalypse. That being said I liked this issue because it's given me and other true Juggernaut fans hope. So if Marvel is ready to give Juggernaut back his swagger back then more power to them then!!

And to you kind sir, stop crying! At least Hulk aint get his ass handed to him by Sasquatch!!! >:(

[Lord Moon]

If anyones been screwed more then the Hulk it's been the Juggernaut. And that's been going on for like the last 3 years!!!

I believe Auston was writting Uncanny back then. And from the looks of it Auston basically did no background on Cain what so ever. And then after hundred of Juggernaut mishaps he finally trys to covers his ass by putting Juggernaut in the bed with she hulk saying "....I guess Cytorack is taking away my powers because I'm good now" WTF!

My point is no one holds a candle to the poor as writting of Marvel character like they've done Juggernaut recently. Not the Hulk not even Apocalypse. That being said I loved the issue. If Marvel is ready to give Juggernaut back his swagger back then more power to them then!!

And to you kind sir, stop crying! At least Hulk aint get his ass handed to him by Sasquatch!!! >:(

Quite. I really can't understand a new writer not trying to read just about every story they can on a character they'll be writing.

[Lord Moon]

Ben took a major hit to the ears, where equilibrium is regulated. Getting up may have been literally beyond his ability, regardless of determination or how close he was to death.

There was a very early issue of FF where Reed (the tomfool) accidentally distracted Ben so that the Hulk was able to lay a fist upon the Thing's head. Reed actually thought this may have killed Ben so that seems to say to me that Ben is the best all round fighter in the MU (as do many many stories over the years) but a good fisting from the Hulk tends to put anyone under.

It also suggests that having Mr Fantastic on your side is a 2-edged sword. And they say Civil War was written out of character.

[Sabrinaset]

There was also ... What was it called? It ended up being Giant-Sized Fantastic Four #1, although it was known by another name ... The heck with it, here is it ...

http://i12.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/b3/3e/5da7_1.JPG

... where Ben and the Hulks minds were switched, and the Hulk, in Ben's body, was winning ... so there's certainly something psychological in the fact that Ben is "weaker" than the Hulk ...

[CMBMOOL]

There was also ... What was it called? It ended up being Giant-Sized Fantastic Four #1, although it was known by another name ... The heck with it, here is it ...

http://i12.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/b3/3e/5da7_1.JPG

... where Ben and the Hulks minds were switched, and the Hulk, in Ben's body, was winning ... so there's certainly something psychological in the fact that Ben is "weaker" than the Hulk ...

Yep I guess that just prove that within mind and body the Hulk will always defeat the Thing in battle. :(

[stingerman]

I don't think the whole fight was shown. If you look at the panels the Thing does get hit more than once.

Also, remember that the Thing did bloody Hulks face....it's just Hulk's healing factor is really hard for him to overcome.

The Hulk is also more powerful than he ever has been before....not just because of his anger (though that is a big part of it), but also because of that second gamma bomb that led to his rampage in Vegas.

The Thing is always getting the raw deal...mostly because he never lets himself go all out. Either because he's worried about his opponent or because there are civilians or other heroes to worry about hurting.

If the Thing gets another chance at the Hulk...I don't think he'll be able to put the Hulk down, but I do think he'll give the Hulk a much better fight. As long as the Thing doesn't go toe to toe and punch for punch with the Hulk.

The Thing is a better fighter...he's just not as strong or fast and has a normal healing factor.

I dont think the Things a better fighter especially after the Hulk being in Gladiator fights. The fight didnt surprise me at all. Thing is no where near Hulk class!

[Kevinroc]

Didn't Ben run away from the Hulk a lot back in the day?

[Krowbar]

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." -
-- Mark Twain


Hi All, just registered and my first post. :)

[ivesaidway2much]

I'm surprised Ben even showed up. During Civil War he abandonned Frankilin (his godson) and Frankilin's sister, Valeria. Even though their parents were splitting up, they were in the middle of a superhuman war, and they were living inside a building where numerous prisoners (one actually managed to escape and roam free inside) were being transported to the Negative Zone. And as one of the few neutral heroes (and apparently the soul of the MU), Ben didn't even try to find a peaceful resolution; he just left. I figured, with his current level of cowardice, Ben would just walk the other way when he heard the Hulk was coming.

[mcgaffer]

I do think Ben vs. Hulk should have been given an entire issue but thats because im old school Marvel and old school Marvel says Thing vs. Hulk= ultimate fight. Storywise Thing should'nt be able to stand up to Hulk, but also storywise that does'nt stop Ben from trying or the Hulk from respecting Ben for trying.

[ivesaidway2much]

I'd say it's mostly done because if Hulk beat up EVERYONE without any second thought then no one would believe it, and the fans of, I don't know.... EVERY character aside from the Hulk will be pissed off a bit and you don't want to risk losing readers because you wanted Hulk to smash. I mean, even if you actually think the Hulk could beat up everyone he has and could do it without a doubt, you still have to admit it would irk a lot of people. Then the only ones buy'n this big hyped tie-in would be Hulk fans, while everyone else disregards it.That's pretty much what the Hulk is doing anyway. He embarassed the X-teams to the point where the only thing that stopped him was the pity he felt for all the dead X-babies. He walked through the Avengers and Spider-man. And he beat up the Fantastic Six(?). That's all four corners of the Marvel Universe (which, btw, always irked me since it snubbed a certain jade giant). Outside of flying back out to space to throw down with Nova and rest of the cosmics or taking a trip under the sea, he's already defeated most of the major players in the MU. And the readers haven't left yet. All that's left is Strange and the Sentry.

[marty is ruling]

Didn't Ben run away from the Hulk a lot back in the day?

Never.....Grimm has let Hulk go once or twice...but has never run away.

I remember one battle the Hulk was fleeing the Avengers and somehow the Thing happened to be where the Hulk was fleeing (forgive me if my memory is foggy on the book and the previous details)....anyway the Thing was going to try to stop the Hulk...and the Hulk started yelling at the Thing about hating him. This caught Ben by surprise and he just stood there wide eyed and after a moment he just muttered that he didn't hate him. I don't think a single punch was thrown....and I can't remember if the Hulk heard what Grimm said...but when Grimm explained why he let the Hulk go, he said that he could very well be just like the Hulk had it not been for his friends. Or something like that.

Grimm has a strange relationship with the Hulk....he pities him and in many ways likes him...but he also dislikes the Hulk at times.....more because of the way the fights turn out. I think that has more to do with the Thing's pride than anything the Hulk has ever done.

That may change now.

If anyone has ever read Hard Knocks....the four or five issues series is a confrontation between the Hulk and Thing (that's really more of a conversation and flashback to their first meeting), that ultimately leads to the Thing revealing that he beat the Hulk. He even had a picture taken from a military plane flying overhead.

It was the only time the Thing ever went all out on the Hulk. Grimm says that the Hulk may have been a bit groggy after being hit with a ray earlier in the day...but with Hulk's healing factor it wouldn't make sense.

It's an interesting read....not a lot of action, but great story telling.

[Cain Marko]

Man please if any character's been screwed it's been the Juggernaut. And that's been going on for like the last 3 years!!!

I believe Auston was writting Uncanny back then. And from the looks of it Auston basically did no background on Cain what so ever. And then after hundreds of Juggernaut mishaps he finally trys to covers his ass by putting Juggernaut in the bed with Shehulk saying "....I guess Cytorack is taking away my powers because I'm good now" WTF!

Cain has alwas been bad even as a child in fact he thrieved on it. But he had every right to hate Charles growing up. If Charles current exposers aren't proof of what he is capable of. Then just amagine Charles first discovering his powers as a boy inflicting trial and error on Cain probing and manipulating his mind. But hey no hard feelings at all right....SMH

My point is no one holds a candle to the poor ass writting of a Marvel character like they've done Juggernaut recently. Not the Hulk not even Apocalypse. That being said I liked this issue because it's given me and other true Juggernaut fans hope. So if Marvel is ready to give Juggernaut back his swagger back then more power to them then!!

And to you kind sir, stop crying! At least Hulk aint get his ass handed to him by Sasquatch!!! >:(



In honor of the truth of this post, Labor Day is hereby replaced as The Mother@&#*in' Juggernaut Is Back Day.

Please drink responsibly.

[steve2275]

Wow, you were disappointed with that? He received the most brutal attack the Hulk has dished out this entire event.
right next to COLOSSSUS and wolverine

[CMBMOOL]

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." -
-- Mark Twain


Hi All, just registered and my first post. :)

Nice quote and welcome to the fourms. :D

[CMBMOOL]

That's pretty much what the Hulk is doing anyway. He embarassed the X-teams to the point where the only thing that stopped him was the pity he felt for all the dead X-babies. He walked through the Avengers and Spider-man. And he beat up the Fantastic Six(?). That's all four corners of the Marvel Universe (which, btw, always irked me since it snubbed a certain jade giant). Outside of flying back out to space to throw down with Nova and rest of the comics or taking a trip under the sea, he's already defeated most of the major players in the MU. And the readers haven't left yet. All that's left is Strange and the Sentry.

Kind of makes me happy that the Hulk wasn't involve with Civil War at all, becuase he got the advantage of seeing the heroes of Marvel U in shambles.

Besides it like the Hulk always complaining about the heroes always arguing amongs themselves and never truly getting the job done. :(

[Magneto Rocks]

I'm surprised Ben even showed up. During Civil War he abandonned Frankilin (his godson) and Frankilin's sister, Valeria. Even though their parents were splitting up, they were in the middle of a superhuman war, and they were living inside a building where numerous prisoners (one actually managed to escape and roam free inside) were being transported to the Negative Zone. And as one of the few neutral heroes (and apparently the soul of the MU), Ben didn't even try to find a peaceful resolution; he just left. I figured, with his current level of cowardice, Ben would just walk the other way when he heard the Hulk was coming.

Eh. It's not too odd when you remember that... well, based on what I read, I'm not entirely sure JMS knew what a Franklin or a Valeria was. ;)

[Green King]

There was a very early issue of FF where Reed (the tomfool) accidentally distracted Ben so that the Hulk was able to lay a fist upon the Thing's head. Reed actually thought this may have killed Ben so that seems to say to me that Ben is the best all round fighter in the MU (as do many many stories over the years) but a good fisting from the Hulk tends to put anyone under.

It also suggests that having Mr Fantastic on your side is a 2-edged sword. And they say Civil War was written out of character.

Alicia Masters also distracted the Thing in (what I felt was) his absolute BEST showing ever against the Hulk (despite Thing not being in his right mind).

[Green King]

Grimm has a strange relationship with the Hulk....he pities him and in many ways likes him...but he also dislikes the Hulk at times.....more because of the way the fights turn out. I think that has more to do with the Thing's pride than anything the Hulk has ever done.


Incredible Hulk vol. 2 #365

At a bar and grill. Ben Grimm is talking to himself. He is saying that the guy tries to kill him and that they are helping him. Hulk walks in. He says that it is Saturday and that he usually has Michelob, but that he will have a milk instead. Grimm says to put it in a dirty glass though and Hulk agrees. Hulk says that Grimm is paying. Ben says that Hulk must really be getting off on this, and that there isn’t a thing he can do about it. Hulk says, “Literally”. Hulk asks Grimm if he feels helpless, and says that now he know he felt cooped up inside Banner all those years. Grimm tells him not to hand him his problems. He says that Hulk has a lot of nerve coming to people that he has had a grudge against for years. Hulk says that Grimm is the one who has the grudge. Grimm says that he is the one that always started wrecking everything every time he showed up. Hulk says that is a good example. Hulk says that the first time they met there was a guy named the Wrecker that was destroying rocket sites. Hulk says that they just assumed that he was the Wrecker with no evidence at all. He says that based on what they saw they attacked him. Grimm asks so what. Hulk says that they could have apologized. Grimm asks if he is crazy. He says that Hulk tried to kill him in New York. He asks Hulk why he cares anyway. Hulk says that if he has been trying to kill him that he would be dead. He says that as for why he cares that he has a bad feeling about what is happening to him and that he feels like he should be settling accounts. He wonders why they have been beating on each other all those years. Grimm says that Hulk attacked him because he was a monster like him, but that he had friends and had made something of himself. He says that even when he was brainless that it made him sick. Hulk says, “Yeah, Grimm? And you always attacked me… because you spent all your time wishing you weren’t a monster, and envying me because I never once, not once, wished I was something else. You envied that I was happy being the Hulk. And you envied that I was stronger, and that I could cut loose without conscience, or concern, or care. Maybe I never penetrated your rock, but I got under your skin. Remember that, if we ever meet again.” Hulk starts leaving. Grimm calls to the Hulk and apologizes for thinking that he was the Wrecker. Hulk says, “Remember all those times I beat you up?” Grimm says, “Yeah?” Hulk says, “I was going easy on you.” Hulk walks out and leaves Grimm there.

[Green King]

Cain has a point. This wasn't like in the classic Spidey story "Nothing Can Stop The Juggernaut" where he was walking forward and Spidey was trying to stop him; it was a brawl. Juggy was trying to kick the Hulk's butt, not push past him or push him backward. So the question doesn't really apply in this case.

Best,

CNG

I loved those 2 Spidey issues. :D

[Mr Fixit]

Just saw how abrupt my Thing is a punk comment was and wanted to say it wasn't made to offend because it looked a bit nasty towards Thing fans.

I can explain my problem with Thing.

It's basicly down to the fact he is loveable and that is what I don't like about the character. I have always been drawn to dark heros and characters who are flawed when being accepted.

The Thing comes across as the butler from Heart to Heart he grumbles but serves well and I don't know where else I am going with that point ...?

Ironicly the one time I found Thing intresting was when he went through that freaky pinapple transformation and was stronger than the Hulk at the time (Mr.Fixit).
I really enjoyed seeing Benn Grimm physicaly stronger than Hulk and Hulk having to go to a different level to beat Grim.
The Peter David side of that fight is a great example why I loved Mr.Fixit soo much he knew that wining could be achived by doing many different things and he loved to take the piss out of his enemies while doing it.

[Nefarius]

In honor of the truth of this post, Labor Day is hereby replaced as The Mother@&#*in' Juggernaut Is Back Day.

Please drink responsibly.

Let the whole mother****in world know that Juggernaut is back.

I hope after WWH:X-men,Juggy would return to his old villainous way.

[Green King]

This is a debate I've read different opinions on for the last several days. Some think The Hulk did stop the juggernaut. Others think he just greatly slowed him down. Others think the Juggeranut was not in foward motion at all. One post I read even claimed to have an e-mail from the writer that stated the Hulk stopped the Juggeranut for a moment. Doubt was thrown on this claim since the post was made by a relativly unknown hulk fan who preceded to insult the poster who questioned the validity of his claim afterwards.

What do you think or has anything been said? Or is it left ambiguious on purpose?


I think it was more of the Hulk getting the proper leverage moreso than him slowing down Juggernaut...and while I don't think that the Hulk "beat" Juggy in Issue #3.....he clearly outsmarted him.

[Green King]

Ironicly the one time I found Thing intresting was when he went through that freaky pinapple transformation and was stronger than the Hulk at the time (Mr.Fixit).
I really enjoyed seeing Benn Grimm physicaly stronger than Hulk and Hulk having to go to a different level to beat Grim.
The Peter David side of that fight is a great example why I loved Mr.Fixit soo much he knew that wining could be achived by doing many different things and he loved to take the piss out of his enemies while doing it.

I'd rather that Mr. Fixit maintained his Rocky III tactics and stick and move. His ego (over the thought that the "Pineapple Thing" broke his grip) prevented him from winning the fight (as the Thing in the end of that FF issue admitted that he was tired). But I do agree with your take on Fixit's comeback in the Hulk issue (fight sequel).

[ultimate hulk]

Jobing the Hulk? Are you serious?

In a span of 24 hours, he almost single handedly beats up three teams of X-Men, their students, Iron Man in Hulkbuster armor, She-Hulk, Ares, Doc Samson, the original Fantastic Four (and shrugged off Torch's nova blast), Black Panther, Storm, Hercules, the US Army, Dr. Strange and others?

That's being jobbed?

of course the hulk battles are being jobbed...all the major battles so far has been a question mark...what if black bolt had scream...what if ironman had used his nanbots...dr strange can banish the hulk yet he used some lame excuse not...i wouldn't mind dr strange trying to banish the hulk...only to have hirom stop him from doing so...:D

[ivesaidway2much]

of course the hulk battles are being jobbed...all the major battles so far has been a question mark...They are only jobbings if you assume the Hulk would have lost those fights otherwise. But then that wouldn't make you much of an ultimate hulk fan. Now would it? For instance:
what if black bolt had scream...He still would have lost. It's not the Hulk's fault that Black Bolt has a glass jaw.
what if ironman had used his nanbots...There'd still be another W in the Hulk's won-loss column. This is the guy that invented freaking Clor, and didn't even bother to check if his weapons were loaded before fighting the Hulk. Do you honestly think he had a chance in that brawl?
dr strange can banish the hulk yet he used some lame excuse not...The Hulk one-punched Dormamu last year, Strange is just lucky (although I guess it's arguable whether it's good or bad luck) that the Hulk wants to make him suffer first.
i wouldn't mind dr strange trying to banish the hulk...only to have hirom stop him from doing so...:DOr maybe this would have happened. See, using this method, the Hulk is still the strongest one there is, and no one can prove you wrong.

[Hulk Strongest One]

I can't see that drawing as being the Hulk being pushed back. It's wishful reading, if you ask me.

If anything, you could argue Juggs is being pushed back. Why? Slightly more damaged ground is behind the Hulk than behind Juggs. This indicates the battle is moving in Juggs direction (i.e. he's being pushed back). It could also indicate Hulk is applying more energy to the combat.

Doesn't Juggernaut have some kind of aura that keeps the ground from buckling, or him from sliding, something like that? Or would a simple oil slick halt him in his tracks?


Nah, if you are trying to read this much from that ambiguous drawing, you'll have to agree Blackbolt screamed at Hulk because that WWH: Iron Man issue, a thousand times more clearly, showed it, and ignore the writer's verbal retcon of it.

[Hulk Strongest One]

Well, the Thing did go from beating Fixit once, immediately to fighting the Hulk robot, and then right back to Fixit again. Unlike Hulk, he doesn't get stronger as he fights, but gets tired like 99% of the other characters.

[dabig2]

Incredible Hulk vol. 2 #365

At a bar and grill. Ben Grimm is talking to himself. He is saying that the guy tries to kill him and that they are helping him. Hulk walks in. He says that it is Saturday and that he usually has Michelob, but that he will have a milk instead. Grimm says to put it in a dirty glass though and Hulk agrees. Hulk says that Grimm is paying. Ben says that Hulk must really be getting off on this, and that there isn’t a thing he can do about it. Hulk says, “Literally”. Hulk asks Grimm if he feels helpless, and says that now he know he felt cooped up inside Banner all those years. Grimm tells him not to hand him his problems. He says that Hulk has a lot of nerve coming to people that he has had a grudge against for years. Hulk says that Grimm is the one who has the grudge. Grimm says that he is the one that always started wrecking everything every time he showed up. Hulk says that is a good example. Hulk says that the first time they met there was a guy named the Wrecker that was destroying rocket sites. Hulk says that they just assumed that he was the Wrecker with no evidence at all. He says that based on what they saw they attacked him. Grimm asks so what. Hulk says that they could have apologized. Grimm asks if he is crazy. He says that Hulk tried to kill him in New York. He asks Hulk why he cares anyway. Hulk says that if he has been trying to kill him that he would be dead. He says that as for why he cares that he has a bad feeling about what is happening to him and that he feels like he should be settling accounts. He wonders why they have been beating on each other all those years. Grimm says that Hulk attacked him because he was a monster like him, but that he had friends and had made something of himself. He says that even when he was brainless that it made him sick. Hulk says, “Yeah, Grimm? And you always attacked me… because you spent all your time wishing you weren’t a monster, and envying me because I never once, not once, wished I was something else. You envied that I was happy being the Hulk. And you envied that I was stronger, and that I could cut loose without conscience, or concern, or care. Maybe I never penetrated your rock, but I got under your skin. Remember that, if we ever meet again.” Hulk starts leaving. Grimm calls to the Hulk and apologizes for thinking that he was the Wrecker. Hulk says, “Remember all those times I beat you up?” Grimm says, “Yeah?” Hulk says, “I was going easy on you.” Hulk walks out and leaves Grimm there.

Loved that entire issue

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g248/dabig2/from%20original%20Hulk%20issues/GrayHulktalkstoBen1-365.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g248/dabig2/from%20original%20Hulk%20issues/GrayHulktalkstoBen2-365.jpg

[ShaggyB]

Ok I'll weigh in on this one....

It looked to me like Jugs and hulk locked horns and started a strength contest. Seemed they were evenly matched. neither budged once dug in, and this resulted in the x-mansion's foundation breaking a bit. Hulk realizing he had 24 hour deadline to meet, decided "well nothing stops the juggernaut once hes moving and hes applying all his strength forward. If i side step and make him move forward, then add an accelaration force to him... He wont stop moving for awhile and i can get Chuck and smeer his bald a$$ all over NYC."

So hulk side steps and hits jugs with a smack to the back, sends him rocketing forward and nothing will stop him. Eitherway its not really a fair fight in the terms that we board memebers like to have. WWH:Xmen clearly was a stepping stone for the return of full power Juggs but at the same time shows that the Hulk is smart, deadly and super strong... Yet he still has a soft spot for suffering. Its just more of the same with WWH but a bit more X-books-ified.

Nuff said.

[CMBMOOL]

I'm surprised Ben even showed up. During Civil War he abandonned Frankilin (his godson) and Frankilin's sister, Valeria. Even though their parents were splitting up, they were in the middle of a superhuman war, and they were living inside a building where numerous prisoners (one actually managed to escape and roam free inside) were being transported to the Negative Zone. And as one of the few neutral heroes (and apparently the soul of the MU), Ben didn't even try to find a peaceful resolution; he just left. I figured, with his current level of cowardice, Ben would just walk the other way when he heard the Hulk was coming.

Wow, that is a very vaild point you just made, I mean it tough to fight each other and Ben may have been sick and tired of it, but when it against the Hulk then it all for one and one for all. :(


I'm kind of confused on this myself. :(

[CMBMOOL]

Incredible Hulk vol. 2 #365

At a bar and grill. Ben Grimm is talking to himself. He is saying that the guy tries to kill him and that they are helping him. Hulk walks in. He says that it is Saturday and that he usually has Michelob, but that he will have a milk instead. Grimm says to put it in a dirty glass though and Hulk agrees. Hulk says that Grimm is paying. Ben says that Hulk must really be getting off on this, and that there isn’t a thing he can do about it. Hulk says, “Literally”. Hulk asks Grimm if he feels helpless, and says that now he know he felt cooped up inside Banner all those years. Grimm tells him not to hand him his problems. He says that Hulk has a lot of nerve coming to people that he has had a grudge against for years. Hulk says that Grimm is the one who has the grudge. Grimm says that he is the one that always started wrecking everything every time he showed up. Hulk says that is a good example. Hulk says that the first time they met there was a guy named the Wrecker that was destroying rocket sites. Hulk says that they just assumed that he was the Wrecker with no evidence at all. He says that based on what they saw they attacked him. Grimm asks so what. Hulk says that they could have apologized. Grimm asks if he is crazy. He says that Hulk tried to kill him in New York. He asks Hulk why he cares anyway. Hulk says that if he has been trying to kill him that he would be dead. He says that as for why he cares that he has a bad feeling about what is happening to him and that he feels like he should be settling accounts. He wonders why they have been beating on each other all those years. Grimm says that Hulk attacked him because he was a monster like him, but that he had friends and had made something of himself. He says that even when he was brainless that it made him sick. Hulk says, “Yeah, Grimm? And you always attacked me… because you spent all your time wishing you weren’t a monster, and envying me because I never once, not once, wished I was something else. You envied that I was happy being the Hulk. And you envied that I was stronger, and that I could cut loose without conscience, or concern, or care. Maybe I never penetrated your rock, but I got under your skin. Remember that, if we ever meet again.” Hulk starts leaving. Grimm calls to the Hulk and apologizes for thinking that he was the Wrecker. Hulk says, “Remember all those times I beat you up?” Grimm says, “Yeah?” Hulk says, “I was going easy on you.” Hulk walks out and leaves Grimm there.

Well taken that moment into consideration I guess that would explain why the Thing didn't fight off the Hulk during their fight in Vegas. :(

[CMBMOOL]

Eh. It's not too odd when you remember that... well, based on what I read, I'm not entirely sure JMS knew what a Franklin or a Valeria was. ;)

Tochue MR, I forgot who we're dealing with. :p

[Stafnbui]

Man please if any character's been screwed it's been the Juggernaut. And that's been going on for like the last 3 years!!!

I believe Auston was writting Uncanny back then. And from the looks of it Auston basically did no background on Cain what so ever. And then after hundreds of Juggernaut mishaps he finally trys to covers his ass by putting Juggernaut in the bed with Shehulk saying "....I guess Cytorack is taking away my powers because I'm good now" WTF!

Cain has alwas been bad even as a child in fact he thrieved on it. But he had every right to hate Charles growing up. If Charles current exposers aren't proof of what he is capable of. Then just amagine Charles first discovering his powers as a boy inflicting trial and error on Cain probing and manipulating his mind. But hey no hard feelings at all right....SMH

My point is no one holds a candle to the poor ass writting of a Marvel character like they've done Juggernaut recently. Not the Hulk not even Apocalypse. That being said I liked this issue because it's given me and other true Juggernaut fans hope. So if Marvel is ready to give Juggernaut back his swagger back then more power to them then!!

And to you kind sir, stop crying! At least Hulk aint get his ass handed to him by Sasquatch!!! >:(

And what exactly is it that you are doing hypocrite if not crying? Atleast juggs haven´t got his ass handed to him by tin can ffs like the hulk when he was KO:ed! by puny tony.

[Funkdmonkey]

I don't think the Hulk stopped the Juggernaut because he never really charged at the Hulk. From my interpretation of the picture, it would look as if they're trying to trade punches but instead got into a grappling war. In the process of trying to outmaneuver the other, the Hulk pulled a quick one and ended the battle in his favor.

[Lord Moon]

And what exactly is it that you are doing hypocrite if not crying? Atleast juggs haven´t got his ass handed to him by tin can ffs like the hulk when he was KO:ed! by puny tony.

I sense you like the Juggernaut.

[marty is ruling]

I have that issue where She-Thing fights the Hulk. My favorite part of that issue is when Grimm jumps on his back and Hulk notices he's human and says..."God Grimm you look terrible". Or something like that.

You can say that the Hulk was taking it easy on The Thing at times, but it's not like Grimm went all out in every fight (even at that point).

Besides the Savage Hulk couldn't hold back against the Thing..especially in early encounters. I think it's more likely The Hulk wanted to get under Thing's skin once again. Mr Fix it was known for that.

The Mr. Fix It persona probably not only had a hard time liking Ben, but also had a hard time dealing with a de-powered, vulnerable(emotionally) and apologetic Mr. Grimm.

[Jadeskies]

Thing has never been on par with savage hulk, he could never go in swinging fists and expect to win. He used tactics like throwing cars at hulk from a distance. Now lets add in that this hulk is far superior to savage hulk and you would see that nobody else got in as many shots on the hulk as Thing did and saying that much is a lot. Thing is a heavy hitter but he doesnt have the raw power that the hulk has or the endurance to go the distance against a hulk who just gets stronger as he goes.

Also in the hulks corner is not only power and ferocity but manueverability. You don't see thing taking 10 mile leaps across america. You have never seen a comic where the the thing leaps straight up a few miles and drops on his opponent after hearing the whistling drop of a cannonball.

[marty is ruling]

Thing has never been on par with savage hulk, he could never go in swinging fists and expect to win. He used tactics like throwing cars at hulk from a distance. Now lets add in that this hulk is far superior to savage hulk and you would see that nobody else got in as many shots on the hulk as Thing did and saying that much is a lot. Thing is a heavy hitter but he doesnt have the raw power that the hulk has or the endurance to go the distance against a hulk who just gets stronger as he goes.

Also in the hulks corner is not only power and ferocity but manueverability. You don't see thing taking 10 mile leaps across america. You have never seen a comic where the the thing leaps straight up a few miles and drops on his opponent after hearing the whistling drop of a cannonball.

Agreed.

The Thing beat Savage Hulk once as was revealed in Hard Knocks (they fought one on one in the middle of the desert and Grimm was angry and went all out). He also beat Gray Hulk....though Grimm was a lot stronger then.

As it stands now....the Thing cannot beat the Hulk without a lot of help or major weapons of some sort. In fact....can anyone as it stands right now? Without trying to kill him?

In the past.....Grimm may have been able to overcome Savage Hulk's healing rate by dishing out punishment faster than Hulk could recover. But Hulk's speed and ferocity of course did not allow that.

My problem wasn't really with this particular fight in WWH. Though I thought there should have been a little more dialog than there was between the Hulk and Thing before the fight. Given their history with one another and Grimm's empathy towards the Hulk.

I just agree with what someone else said about the Thing not being written as well as he should be lately.

[Slammed]

Considering what Thing had said to Hulk before he was shot into space and the "kindred spirit" talk they had, you'd think Thing would have had a much larger part in WWH. So much for hoping.

[thirstyman]

I can't see that drawing as being the Hulk being pushed back. It's wishful reading, if you ask me.

If anything, you could argue Juggs is being pushed back. Why? Slightly more damaged ground is behind the Hulk than behind Juggs. This indicates the battle is moving in Juggs direction (i.e. he's being pushed back). It could also indicate Hulk is applying more energy to the combat.




That doesn't make any sense. That's the complete opposite of what would happen in reality. The person getting pushed back would have more debris behind him, because his foot would be pushing earth back.

Look at the groove in the ground, his foot position is several inches behind where his original staked in footprint was. Juggernauts feet aren't kicking up any earth at all, implying there's no backward movement at all. Hulk is clearly getting pushed back, if slowly.

[thronzeblast]

Considering what Thing had said to Hulk before he was shot into space and the "kindred spirit" talk they had, you'd think Thing would have had a much larger part in WWH. So much for hoping.

Why would he have a larger role yeah they have a history but the hulk is all business you really think he want's to talk about old time's given what he has been through.If his own cousin caught a beaten and he was gonna let meik give rick jone's one the thing is not even gonna register on his radar.The hulk that was exiled and the hulk that came back are two completely different people.

[dabig2]

Why would he have a larger role yeah they have a history but the hulk is all business you really think he want's to talk about old time's given what he has been through.If his own cousin caught a beaten and he was gonna let meik give rick jone's one the thing is not even gonna register on his radar.The hulk that was exiled and the hulk that came back are two completely different people.

Yeah, pretty different indeed. Also, that whole monster angle where they understand each other--that's the role the Warbound are now supplying. Thing just can't relate to the Hulk anymore to really register on an emotional level. At least not more than those from a planet of monsters ruled by monsters.

[redhulk]

With thanks to mr Christosage why we can'y say Hulk stopped the Juggernaught we can say


the hulk sure as hell started him again...


Welcome back Juggs

[Green King]

Well taken that moment into consideration I guess that would explain why the Thing didn't fight off the Hulk during their fight in Vegas. :(


And the second, most recent time they fought in Vegas (almost 2 years ago and probably the fight that was the tip of the iceberg toward the "heroes" sending the Hulk to space)....the Thing tried to reach out to the (Grey) Hulk who was literally hit in the face with additional gamma rays and was not in his right mind as a (peaceful and sympathetic) monster trying to reach out to another monster.

[Green King]

MY alltime favorite Thing/Hulk fights:

Fantastic Four #112

The Thing was not in his right mind and was turning into a bad guy at the time so when he saw the Hulk leaping toward him he went all out on the Hulkster.....but nothing he did could stop him although that issue pretty much epitomizes Ben's courage and never say die attitude. The fight was brutal and neither opponent gave an inch (although Ben literally threw everything at him).


Thing has a rather unique relationship toward the Hulk. On the one hand he HATES the Hulk but on the other hand he sympathizes with the Hulk probably because he knows that if the circumstances were different HE would be just as hunted, hated and feared as the Hulk.

[Archmage]

That doesn't make any sense. That's the complete opposite of what would happen in reality. The person getting pushed back would have more debris behind him, because his foot would be pushing earth back.

Look at the groove in the ground, his foot position is several inches behind where his original staked in footprint was. Juggernauts feet aren't kicking up any earth at all, implying there's no backward movement at all. Hulk is clearly getting pushed back, if slowly.

Okay aside from the fact that Christos Gage already said that there was a contest of strength and not pushing, so this point is no longer a point.

However, I had to respond to this faulty logic.
the person who is moving forward will always have more debris behind his foot and the person being pushed will always have less.
Think of the scenario with two people in a ring of sand. The oerson pushing forward will need to exert pressure behind him to push him forward. In order to accomplish this, the ground behind his foot will always be greater since he is generating forward motion. conversely, the person being pushed backwards, will have less debris behind his foot. Rather, there will be a trail of debris along his foot and in front of his foot. A simple experiment would be to drag you finger through a pan of sand. You will see that there is sand kicked up in a trail and less in front of the finger. For the person pushing forward, try and visualize the runner at a olympic run. Why is there a block of wood behind the person's foot? So that he can push off the wood for a explosive forward motion.

[CMBMOOL]

MY alltime favorite Thing/Hulk fights:

Fantastic Four #112

The Thing was not in his right mind and was turning into a bad guy at the time so when he saw the Hulk leaping toward him he went all out on the Hulkster.....but nothing he did could stop him although that issue pretty much epitomizes Ben's courage and never say die attitude. The fight was brutal and neither opponent gave an inch (although Ben literally threw everything at him).


Thing has a rather unique relationship toward the Hulk. On the one hand he HATES the Hulk but on the other hand he sympathizes with the Hulk probably because he knows that if the circumstances were different HE would be just as hunted, hated and feared as the Hulk.

With that piece of information it no wonder the Thing lost so quickly. :(

[Green King]

Okay aside from the fact that Christos Gage already said that there was a contest of strength and not pushing, so this point is no longer a point.

However, I had to respond to this faulty logic.
the person who is moving forward will always have more debris behind his foot and the person being pushed will always have less.
Think of the scenario with two people in a ring of sand. The oerson pushing forward will need to exert pressure behind him to push him forward. In order to accomplish this, the ground behind his foot will always be greater since he is generating forward motion. conversely, the person being pushed backwards, will have less debris behind his foot. Rather, there will be a trail of debris along his foot and in front of his foot. A simple experiment would be to drag you finger through a pan of sand. You will see that there is sand kicked up in a trail and less in front of the finger. For the person pushing forward, try and visualize the runner at a olympic run. Why is there a block of wood behind the person's foot? So that he can push off the wood for a explosive forward motion.

Damn...I feel like the Savage Hulk right about now: Stupefied. I still stand by the argument that although the fight for the most part was stalemated (highlighted by the "pushing")....the Hulk outsmarted Juggy.

[wolfblade]

Okay aside from the fact that Christos Gage already said that there was a contest of strength and not pushing, so this point is no longer a point.

However, I had to respond to this faulty logic.
the person who is moving forward will always have more debris behind his foot and the person being pushed will always have less.
Think of the scenario with two people in a ring of sand. The oerson pushing forward will need to exert pressure behind him to push him forward. In order to accomplish this, the ground behind his foot will always be greater since he is generating forward motion. conversely, the person being pushed backwards, will have less debris behind his foot. Rather, there will be a trail of debris along his foot and in front of his foot. A simple experiment would be to drag you finger through a pan of sand. You will see that there is sand kicked up in a trail and less in front of the finger. For the person pushing forward, try and visualize the runner at a olympic run. Why is there a block of wood behind the person's foot? So that he can push off the wood for a explosive forward motion.

you clearly expresed what I was thinking in my head. thank you.

[Massder]

How did Thing get beat down so easily? To me the answer is obvious and fits right into the whole "the hulk is not a killer" theme.

Take Fantastic Four 535, which shows the Hulk/Thing fight following the hydra gamma bomb explosion.

First page for dramatic purposes:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y114/Escobar123/1.jpg

Second page:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y114/Escobar123/2.jpg

"I can taste blood. A rib shifts inside, broken. Can't even.. move."
"He's never.. never hit me like that, like.. like he wanted to kill me more than anything in the whole world."
"This is it."

This shows two things imo: 1) what the hulk could *already* do in terms of power (shortly after this he withstands nova flame no sweat). 2) That there indeed has been something preventing the hulk from dishing out this kind of hurt in Hulk/Thing previous encounters (be it gamma bombs or special relationships or not being a killer).

Currently in WWH: Recognize the state of mind?: "like he wanted to kill me more than anything..."

[CMBMOOL]

How did Thing get beat down so easily? To me the answer is obvious and fits right into the whole "the hulk is not a killer" theme.

Take Fantastic Four 535, which shows the Hulk/Thing fight following the hydra gamma bomb explosion.

First page for dramatic purposes:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y114/Escobar123/1.jpg

Second page:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y114/Escobar123/2.jpg

"I can taste blood. A rib shifts inside, broken. Can't even.. move."
"He's never.. never hit me like that, like.. like he wanted to kill me more than anything in the whole world."
"This is it."

This shows two things imo: 1) what the hulk could *already* do in terms of power (shortly after this he withstands nova flame no sweat). 2) That there indeed has been something preventing the hulk from dishing out this kind of hurt in Hulk/Thing previous encounters (be it gamma bombs or special relationships or not being a killer).

Currently in WWH: Recognize the state of mind?: "like he wanted to kill me more than anything..."


But that was their last fight before the events of Civil War and WWH.:(

Now compare what happen then to what happens to Ben when he face off with the Hulk during WWH #2 and you may get my point of the Hulk taking out Ben too easily as opposed to the pictures of that fight. :(

[Massder]

But that was their last fight before the events of Civil War and WWH.:(

Now compare what happen then to what happens to Ben when he face off with the Hulk during WWH #2 and you may get my point of the Hulk taking out Ben too easily as opposed to the pictures of that fight. :(

Nono this is my point! Ben was basically unhurt up until this moment (tries to calm greenie down etc.) and with one single hammerblow, as seen in the scans, the Hulk hurts Ben so bad that he "cant even move". Now, in WWH, the Hulk is supposedly *even* stronger and meaner than he was when the above took place, which is why i don't see anything wrong with Ben being swept aside.

On a side note, I think a certain elder might be in for a tougher fight than expected, should he for some reason seek a challenger in Hulk. :P

[CMBMOOL]

Nono this is my point! Ben was basically unhurt up until this moment (tries to calm greenie down etc.) and with one single hammerblow, as seen in the scans, the Hulk hurts Ben so bad that he "cant even move". Now, in WWH, the Hulk is supposedly *even* stronger and meaner than he was when the above took place, which is why i don't see anything wrong with Ben being swept aside.



However within both of those fights the Hulk had his powers increased by Gamma Radiation and he could have killed Ben again during WWH, but didn't because of Reed's timing.

However if that wasn't the case could we expect to see Ben back up and trying his best again ? :(

[Badfish40oz]

I guess it depends on your definition of "stopped."

He wasn't "stopped" as in defeated, or "made to stand still" but . .

He definitely wasn't going ANYWHERE in that panel.

[Massder]

However within both of those fights the Hulk had his powers increased by Gamma Radiation and he could have killed Ben again during WWH, but didn't because of Reed's timing.

However if that wasn't the case could we expect to see Ben back up and trying his best again ? :(

Yeah Ben would get up wihout a doubt - if he could. Judging from the two scans i posted I'd guess that the Hulk's fists made contact with Ben's shoulders and head perhaps, or maybe Ben managed to throw his arms up in an attempt to shield himself, and ended up with things being broken inside his chest (much like the punishment he took from the elder in that boxing fight). Take punishment like that straight to the head however, from both sides at once.. well I think its debatable if anyone would get up after that.

[CMBMOOL]

Yeah Ben would get up wihout a doubt - if he could. Judging from the two scans i posted I'd guess that the Hulk's fists made contact with Ben's shoulders and head perhaps, or maybe Ben managed to throw his arms up in an attempt to shield himself, and ended up with things being broken inside his chest (much like the punishment he took from the elder in that boxing fight). Take punishment like that straight to the head however, from both sides at once.. well I think its debatable if anyone would get up after that.

Well we are talking about Aunt Petunia's favorite Nephew who has been in worst beat downs then this one. :D

[Mr Fixit]

In the end even if Hulk can never stop a Juggernuaght "stroll" he can defeat him still. If you were stupid enough to stand infrom of a steam roller until it crushed you then you would be killed. However if you let it pass you buy and then fierd an anti-tank weapon at it the thing would explode and you would win.

In terms of win/loss Hulk stopping Juggernaught from mincing to the puppy shop isn't important at all.

[AnthonyJ]

In terms of damage to the ground, remember, we're talking comic book physics here. Realistically, given the strength of the characters relative to the strength of the ground, it would be like wrestling on a slippery, crumbly surface, such as sandstone or shale, and they'd be slipping and sliding all over the place.

[wolfblade]

Well we are talking about Aunt Petunia's favorite Nephew who has been in worst beat downs then this one. :D

I think you might be underestimating the hulk on this one imo. I mean he has never been stronger and a normal human vs another normal human useing a clap to both sides of the head useualy resalts in a KO and mutch worse.

[Mike Smash!]

I missed that issue. Why exactly is the Hulk bald and grey?

[Superbeast]

I missed that issue. Why exactly is the Hulk bald and grey?

The second Hydra made gamma bomb irradiated him so his skin tone resembled his original Hulk form which was grey but small, however this time he was a virtually maxed out super Hulk due to the second gamma bomb, meaning an increase in stature and strength due to his years of experience, an increase in muscle mass since then in addition to the radiation he'd just absorbed. I think his hair had been burned off by the explosion.

Considering what Hulk's been through since then, the fact he's in touch with his Banner personality and has learnt new battles skills on Sakaar, I see him being near that strength but striking strategically. Busting Ben's eardrums, crushing his skull and fracturing his face is a pretty dirty move and it shows he's using his new focused rage and mental focus skills thanks to Hiroim. Same thing has been shown in the WWH: X-Men issues, he's thinking smart and gameplanning on the job to not waste his time.

Also, keep in mind he did to Ben what he threatened to do to Colossus if he didn't get out of his way. Thing didn't get that warning since his feud with the Hulk is much deeper than that and Hulk showed Colossus mercy because he respected his courage to try. Thing caved in Hulk's ribs and face, he got no quarter given to him and no mercy shown in response.

[Badfish40oz]

Now compare what happen then to what happens to Ben when he face off with the Hulk during WWH #2 and you may get my point of the Hulk taking out Ben too easily as opposed to the pictures of that fight

My GOD. How hard is it for everyone to understand that this Hulk is the STRONGEST HULK EVER.

And this Hulk CAN knock out the Thing with one hit because it's already happened and it's canon. If people don't like it, well, tough. It's not "out of character" and it's not "inconsistent" it's just that something happened that you don't like. That's it.

And don't try and get me with semantics . . by "strongest Hulk ever" I also mean "toughest Hulk ever" and "fastest Hulk ever" and "fastest healing Hulk ever" and pretty much everything that goes with the Hulk since it's been established that EVERY ability he has is increased with rage.

[CMBMOOL]

My GOD. How hard is it for everyone to understand that this Hulk is the STRONGEST HULK EVER.

And this Hulk CAN knock out the Thing with one hit because it's already happened and it's canon. If people don't like it, well, tough. It's not "out of character" and it's not "inconsistent" it's just that something happened that you don't like. That's it.

And don't try and get me with semantics . . by "strongest Hulk ever" I also mean "toughest Hulk ever" and "fastest Hulk ever" and "fastest healing Hulk ever" and pretty much everything that goes with the Hulk since it's been established that EVERY ability he has is increased with rage.

Okay I can understand that, it just that I was hoping for a little more since they have a longer history together than the She-Hulk and Hulk connection. :(

[thirstyman]

Okay aside from the fact that Christos Gage already said that there was a contest of strength and not pushing, so this point is no longer a point.

However, I had to respond to this faulty logic.
the person who is moving forward will always have more debris behind his foot and the person being pushed will always have less.
Think of the scenario with two people in a ring of sand. The oerson pushing forward will need to exert pressure behind him to push him forward. In order to accomplish this, the ground behind his foot will always be greater since he is generating forward motion. conversely, the person being pushed backwards, will have less debris behind his foot. Rather, there will be a trail of debris along his foot and in front of his foot. A simple experiment would be to drag you finger through a pan of sand. You will see that there is sand kicked up in a trail and less in front of the finger. For the person pushing forward, try and visualize the runner at a olympic run. Why is there a block of wood behind the person's foot? So that he can push off the wood for a explosive forward motion.

THat's just not true. If you push your finger through sand, there will be a pile of sand in the direction of where you're pushing the finger, and none behind it. Have you ever seen a snow plow in action? By your logic, they would leave large piles of snow behind them, rather than in front.

[wolfblade]

THat's just not true. If you push your finger through sand, there will be a pile of sand in the direction of where you're pushing the finger, and none behind it. Have you ever seen a snow plow in action? By your logic, they would leave large piles of snow behind them, rather than in front.

but a plow is desined to push snow to the side so that isnt a very good argument because it is pushing the snow to the side that and the friction caused by a snow plow is not going to dig up the asfault behind it. but in the end I dont see it as a win or loss for either combatant, juggernaut was outsmarted, which was funny considering usealy it goes the other way with the hulk.

[jigrig]

In terms of damage to the ground, remember, we're talking comic book physics here. Realistically, given the strength of the characters relative to the strength of the ground, it would be like wrestling on a slippery, crumbly surface, such as sandstone or shale, and they'd be slipping and sliding all over the place.

Somebody finally says it right.
All this BS about the ground behind Hulk & Juggs feet means nothing just as posted above, it's the end result that matters & Hulk won because He accomplished what He wanted to, Juggs on the other hand failed miserably in that He was so intent on proving how powerful He is He showed just how lame He is.

[jigrig]

Somebody finally says it right.
All this BS about the ground behind Hulk & Juggs feet means nothing just as posted above, it's the end result that matters & Hulk won because He accomplished what He wanted to, Juggs on the other hand failed miserably in that He was so intent on proving how powerful He is He showed just how lame He is.

Just as all arguments that are sure to come are.
Hulk vs. Juggernaut to the death, Juggs helmet becomes an urn.

[Archmage]

THat's just not true. If you push your finger through sand, there will be a pile of sand in the direction of where you're pushing the finger, and none behind it. Have you ever seen a snow plow in action? By your logic, they would leave large piles of snow behind them, rather than in front.


You are aware that the snow plow's design and shape and curvature was expressly designed for this function, right?

Look, it's simple enough, grab some sand from the beach and trail your finger through it. There will be some small bunching in the front, but most of it would be at the back.

Another perfect example would be a ship travelling through water. The narrow front, would break through the water and while there might be a small amount of heightened water in front of the bow, most of the water is diverted around and behind the ship. Have you been on a ship and observed that phenomenon?

The shape of the foot is comparable to the bow of the ship. Now, if the foot is shaped like a snow plow, then that would indeed be true that a lot more dirt and rubble would be at the heel of the foot. How many people have heels shaped like a moon?

[thirstyman]

You are aware that the snow plow's design and shape and curvature was expressly designed for this function, right?

Look, it's simple enough, grab some sand from the beach and trail your finger through it. There will be some small bunching in the front, but most of it would be at the back.

Another perfect example would be a ship travelling through water. The narrow front, would break through the water and while there might be a small amount of heightened water in front of the bow, most of the water is diverted around and behind the ship. Have you been on a ship and observed that phenomenon?


Well in fact, water doesn't get bunched up behind ships like in the picture of the hulks foot. Ships leave wakes, which are the result of the forward momentum of the ship pushing the water forward and then around it. Look at a wake, they aren't directly behind the ship, they are to the sides, because water doesn't pile up in front like sand or rock would.

I suggest you try pushing your finger trhough sand, you will not end up with a pile of sand left behind your finger. It just doesn't happen.

[wolfblade]

pushing backward or forwards.

[Sam T.]

I truly believe the Hulk stopped the Juggernaut!

[Green King]

Somebody finally says it right.
All this BS about the ground behind Hulk & Juggs feet means nothing just as posted above, it's the end result that matters & Hulk won because He accomplished what He wanted to, Juggs on the other hand failed miserably in that He was so intent on proving how powerful He is He showed just how lame He is.

Yup....JUST like that Hulk/Thor fight in that "Ghost Of The Future" series a litte more than 11 years ago. Well said. :D

[Badfish40oz]

Somebody finally says it right.
All this BS about the ground behind Hulk & Juggs feet means nothing just as posted above, it's the end result that matters & Hulk won because He accomplished what He wanted to, Juggs on the other hand failed miserably in that He was so intent on proving how powerful He is He showed just how lame He is.

Thank you.

Anyway you look at it, Hulk won this fight.

[Archmage]

Well in fact, water doesn't get bunched up behind ships like in the picture of the hulks foot. Ships leave wakes, which are the result of the forward momentum of the ship pushing the water forward and then around it. Look at a wake, they aren't directly behind the ship, they are to the sides, because water doesn't pile up in front like sand or rock would.

I suggest you try pushing your finger trhough sand, you will not end up with a pile of sand left behind your finger. It just doesn't happen.



ah... the fact that you are aware that the ship pushes water around and behind it already proves my point. It is merely semantics whether there is more rubble or water behind the ship or around the ship. Regardless, the heel of hulk's foot would break rubble around his foot and leave more rubble around his foot and also behind it. Not more at the front part of the heel, as you've verified. And I do use sand a lot since I'm into reefing. And I already told you that there would be some bunching at the front part of the finger, but more would be diverted to the sides and to the back.
In comparison to the person actually pushing forward, he would have much more dirt and rubble behind his foot. I think you would agree that the person actually pushing forward would have more dirt and rubble behind him than the person being pushed, since the rubble follows the logic above?

[Archmage]

Well in fact, water doesn't get bunched up behind ships like in the picture of the hulks foot. Ships leave wakes, which are the result of the forward momentum of the ship pushing the water forward and then around it. Look at a wake, they aren't directly behind the ship, they are to the sides, because water doesn't pile up in front like sand or rock would.

I suggest you try pushing your finger trhough sand, you will not end up with a pile of sand left behind your finger. It just doesn't happen.



And I am giving an analogy with the water. Since water has much different properties than dirt and rubble, you can't expect dirt and rubble to react exactly like water. However, the reaction would be similar. And also in a wake, you are aware that the water displaced does not only go to the side, but also flows back to the back of the ship. So water is pushed to the side and water would then divert to the back due to the nature of water movement. Wakes happen on the sides and the back of the ship. or do you expect the displaced water to act like the "parting of the Red Sea", never to move to the displaced area of the water, which would be found at the rear of the ship?

[Slammed]

Basically put, Jug would have won. Xavier interrupted, broke Cain's concentration and that resulted in Hulk solving the immediate problem associated with the fight (removing Jug from the fight long enough for him to finish what he had to do and leave). Thats not a win, he just basically pushed him a few hundred yards away, Jug just had to get up and walk back to him in an ordinary fight however Hulk just needed time to finish his "work" and leave.

As for if the fight had continued? Who knows...

Jug is supposed to be the top-tier in terms of defensive power, being completely untouchable by physical means. Hulk is the embodiment of physical power. Barring creative writing, Jug would win by attrition.

[mattx110]

Basically put, Jug would have won. Xavier interrupted, broke Cain's concentration and that resulted in Hulk solving the immediate problem associated with the fight (removing Jug from the fight long enough for him to finish what he had to do and leave). Thats not a win, he just basically pushed him a few hundred yards away, Jug just had to get up and walk back to him in an ordinary fight however Hulk just needed time to finish his "work" and leave.

As for if the fight had continued? Who knows...

Jug is supposed to be the top-tier in terms of defensive power, being completely untouchable by physical means. Hulk is the embodiment of physical power. Barring creative writing, Jug would win by attrition.

hulk's power is being pushed to the point of having the strength to do what he has to. hence "you wouldn't like me when i'm angry" and him getting stronger the angrier he is. hulk sorta won, but only insofar as getting rid of juggernaut for a minute. i think hulk could win in a straight fight between the two of them, but that rarely happens in comics, because clear answers like that kill some of the fun. the misunderstandings and alterior motives super-fights aren't always satisfactory, but nobody leaves upset their favorite character got beat up.

[XPac]

Basically put, Jug would have won. Xavier interrupted, broke Cain's concentration and that resulted in Hulk solving the immediate problem associated with the fight (removing Jug from the fight long enough for him to finish what he had to do and leave). Thats not a win, he just basically pushed him a few hundred yards away, Jug just had to get up and walk back to him in an ordinary fight however Hulk just needed time to finish his "work" and leave.

As for if the fight had continued? Who knows...

Jug is supposed to be the top-tier in terms of defensive power, being completely untouchable by physical means. Hulk is the embodiment of physical power. Barring creative writing, Jug would win by attrition.

Why isn't that a win? Hulks goal was to get Juggernaut out of his way. And that's not something outside of Hulks ability to do. Unlike Hulk, Juggy doesn't have a great deal of mobility... chucking him to Jersy may physically beat him but from Hulks perspective there's not a real big difference.

[gregzilla]

Thanks for writing about this. As an old school Thing fan I took a great interest in how his fight with the Hulk in WWH would work out. Considering how many heroes the Hulk has to plow through for the story I was not disappointed. Grimm lasted more panels than anyone else - see She Hulk and Ares. Also, I believe the fight consisted of more blows than were shown. The panels of the other characters reactions indicate a fierce battle. The blow to the ears was just the one that ended it. For more evidence, see WWH Frontline (#2?) where a civilian comments on the fight by saying "They're killing each other!".
Not a bad showing by the Thing, especially these days when he is more or less just used as a punching bag!

[Mr Fixit]

Basically put, Jug would have won. Xavier interrupted, broke Cain's concentration and that resulted in Hulk solving the immediate problem associated with the fight (removing Jug from the fight long enough for him to finish what he had to do and leave). Thats not a win, he just basically pushed him a few hundred yards away, Jug just had to get up and walk back to him in an ordinary fight however Hulk just needed time to finish his "work" and leave.

As for if the fight had continued? Who knows...

Jug is supposed to be the top-tier in terms of defensive power, being completely untouchable by physical means. Hulk is the embodiment of physical power. Barring creative writing, Jug would win by attrition.



Juggernaught isn't untouchable by physical means,Hulk has knocked him on his arse when Red Skull tried to mind control the Hulk and when Hulk lashed out he hit Juggernaugt to the floor like a mug.
Juggernaut is stupid he thinks walking into Hulk will mean he wins he hardly ever uses tactics to secure a win thus he was tossed into the river like he was nothing.
Hulk would have trashed Juggernaught if Juggernaught was important but he wasn't so Hulk did what he needed and left Juggernaut draining the water out of his helmet.

[Green King]

Thanks for writing about this. As an old school Thing fan I took a great interest in how his fight with the Hulk in WWH would work out. Considering how many heroes the Hulk has to plow through for the story I was not disappointed. Grimm lasted more panels than anyone else - see She Hulk and Ares. Also, I believe the fight consisted of more blows than were shown. The panels of the other characters reactions indicate a fierce battle. The blow to the ears was just the one that ended it. For more evidence, see WWH Frontline (#2?) where a civilian comments on the fight by saying "They're killing each other!".
Not a bad showing by the Thing, especially these days when he is more or less just used as a punching bag!

I think out of respect of their old rivalry the Hulk allowed the Thing to get some good clean shots at the Hulkster unlike Ares and She Hulk (who I was a bit surprised that the Hulk took her down as malicious as he did).

[Green King]

I also think that the reason why the Hulk punched the Thing in his ears is that the Thing is faster than the Hulk (thereby allowing him to get some shots in) and that only by messing up his equilibrium that the Thing would be down and out.

So with that said CMBMOOL....that's one reason why the fight between the Hulk and Thing ended so early (the second is that the Hulk IS stronger and the third the Hulk is working on a tight schedule).

[Green King]

Since both opponents power/strength is limitless I'd like to see the Hulk and Juggernaut fight for 3 straight days (minimum).

The KEY for Juggernaut is that despite him being unstoppable he HAS a weakness....and that is if his helmet comes off....he's F$%KED....had Juggy not ram his helmet into the Hulk's chest/gut in desperation (call it the way you see it....but the way I saw it Juggy was desperate)....the Hulk would've ripped it off.

Thor nearly took Juggy down without his helmet in one Thor issue (the one in which he was separated from his "meal ticket" for 60 seconds and he did nothing but lay into the Juggernaut with punch after punch.

With the X-Men it was always a mind blast that would do it for the Juggernaut.

And the Merged Hulk knocked Juggy's helmet with one punch, inflicted another shot to Juggernauts gut and came within one punch of knockin' out Juggy (but instead...Juggy was done for by the psychic backlash from the Hulk).

[Dorsai]

I believe a lot of the fight happened off panel. But the feeling I took away from the WWH fight was that the Hulk was showing respect by not playing around. Of all of the fights shown so far, it seemed Hulk was the most serious about fighting when it came to The Thing. I'll have to go back and read that issue again but I got the feeling that Hulk took The Thing seriously and THAT'S why the fight ended the way it did. More mutual respect for The Thing than the contempt he had already shown towards gods, family, and the military.

[CMBMOOL]

I also think that the reason why the Hulk punched the Thing in his ears is that the Thing is faster than the Hulk (thereby allowing him to get some shots in) and that only by messing up his equilibrium that the Thing would be down and out.

So with that said CMBMOOL....that's one reason why the fight between the Hulk and Thing ended so early (the second is that the Hulk IS stronger and the third the Hulk is working on a tight schedule).


Well when you say it that way I can see why the fight ended so short. :(

[Mr Fixit]

Since both opponents power/strength is limitless I'd like to see the Hulk and Juggernaut fight for 3 straight days (minimum).

The KEY for Juggernaut is that despite him being unstoppable he HAS a weakness....and that is if his helmet comes off....he's F$%KED....had Juggy not ram his helmet into the Hulk's chest/gut in desperation (call it the way you see it....but the way I saw it Juggy was desperate)....the Hulk would've ripped it off.

Thor nearly took Juggy down without his helmet in one Thor issue (the one in which he was separated from his "meal ticket" for 60 seconds and he did nothing but lay into the Juggernaut with punch after punch.

With the X-Men it was always a mind blast that would do it for the Juggernaut.

And the Merged Hulk knocked Juggy's helmet with one punch, inflicted another shot to Juggernauts gut and came within one punch of knockin' out Juggy (but instead...Juggy was done for by the psychic backlash from the Hulk).

That's it the mental feed back finished Juggs off so I was completely correct but it does show that Hulk has the ability to wallop Juggs if he absolutly needs to.

[ivesaidway2much]

I also think that the reason why the Hulk punched the Thing in his ears is that the Thing is faster than the Hulk (thereby allowing him to get some shots in) and that only by messing up his equilibrium that the Thing would be down and out.

So with that said CMBMOOL....that's one reason why the fight between the Hulk and Thing ended so early (the second is that the Hulk IS stronger and the third the Hulk is working on a tight schedule).The Thing is faster than the Hulk?

[Archmage]

ah... I don't believe so... hulk is the one to have credited speed feats against fast opponents.

[Slammed]

Why isn't that a win? Hulks goal was to get Juggernaut out of his way. And that's not something outside of Hulks ability to do. Unlike Hulk, Juggy doesn't have a great deal of mobility... chucking him to Jersy may physically beat him but from Hulks perspective there's not a real big difference.

For the purpose of the "goal" in hand, yes its a win. Did he beat Juggernaut in a physical fight? No. Could Juggernaut have come back in the time Mercury was crying? Probably but he didn't even leave the river after it was all said in done. He was ashamed of what he had to do, having almost destroyed the mansion again. There was no fight to go back to.

Juggernaught isn't untouchable by physical means,Hulk has knocked him on his arse when Red Skull tried to mind control the Hulk and when Hulk lashed out he hit Juggernaugt to the floor like a mug.
Juggernaut is stupid he thinks walking into Hulk will mean he wins he hardly ever uses tactics to secure a win thus he was tossed into the river like he was nothing.
Hulk would have trashed Juggernaught if Juggernaught was important but he wasn't so Hulk did what he needed and left Juggernaut draining the water out of his helmet.

Classic Jugs powers by defintion is his durability with immense strength. He is not as strong as the Hulk but he is by far more durable. The only real loss I've ever read of Classic Juggernaut that took this into consideration was his loss against Thor. There is not supposed to be any level of damage the Hulk could inflict on Juggernaut that would damage him.

I'm not trying to offend Hulk-fanboys, but the point is that Juggernaut is supposed to be written as the anti-physical powerhouse that is weak against everything else and for the most part, is written as that.

[Archmage]

If Juggernaut is perfectly untouchable physically, how did Onslaught physically penetrate Juggernaut's chest and pull out the gem?
I'm assuming that is considered a physical assault against Cain?

[Green King]

The Thing is faster than the Hulk?


Fantastic Four #25: The narrator stated that although the Hulk was bigger that the Thing was faster and was able to get some quick early shots.

Fantastic Four #112 (my personal favorite): The Thing got more shots in on the Hulk (although nothing he did slowed him down).

The Hulk had the advantage in both of those fights....but the quickness of the Thing (combined with his boxing/wrestling savy) enabled him to last longer than most of the Hulk's opponents.

Picture the Thing as Rocky Balboa and the Hulk as Clubber Lang who (unlike in the Rocky III rematch) never gets tired but stronger as the rounds go deeper. No Adrian to bail out "this" Rocky. But maybe we'll see his Aunt Petunia one of these days? :D

Ironically....Mr. T was NOT the originator of the catchphrase "I pity the fool." That honor goes to the Hulk (Avengers #1).

[Archmage]

Not to argue here but to get a debate going...

why would you think that Thing is faster?

In a lot of hulk issues against his opponents, they clearly state that they are surprised by hulk's speed. Hulk was able to hit opponents like Quicksilver and the like. In terms of speed, hulk was able to catch up to an ICM missile mid-flight.

The thing, to my memory, has never done anything impressive speed-wise.

As for the narrator, it was a third party stating his opinion, not the actual combatants... so I take that with a grain of salt. The actual play of the events can be interpreted many ways, one could be thing is faster... another would be that Hulk didn't bother to avoid the blows. He does have a history of doing that...

[ivesaidway2much]

Not to argue here but to get a debate going...

why would you think that Thing is faster?

In a lot of hulk issues against his opponents, they clearly state that they are surprised by hulk's speed. Hulk was able to hit opponents like Quicksilver and the like. In terms of speed, hulk was able to catch up to an ICM missile mid-flight.

The thing, to my memory, has never done anything impressive speed-wise.

As for the narrator, it was a third party stating his opinion, not the actual combatants... so I take that with a grain of salt. The actual play of the events can be interpreted many ways, one could be thing is faster... another would be that Hulk didn't bother to avoid the blows. He does have a history of doing that...No he's right. I have the Fantastic Four DVD. So, I just read those comics. And according to them, the Thing is faster than the Hulk. And it's not like the Hulk was slow in those issues. He caught an anti-tank mortar and used its own momentum to reroute its path. He outswam a motor boat, and even had quicker aim than Captain America. But not only did the Thing claim to be faster, but the Hulk also admitted it. I guess Ben must be near Spider-man level in agility.

[Mr Fixit]

Then I am confussed because according to Marvel Universe Hulk can achive sub-sonic speeds.

[Mr Fixit]

Fantastic Four #25: The narrator stated that although the Hulk was bigger that the Thing was faster and was able to get some quick early shots.

Fantastic Four #112 (my personal favorite): The Thing got more shots in on the Hulk (although nothing he did slowed him down).

The Hulk had the advantage in both of those fights....but the quickness of the Thing (combined with his boxing/wrestling savy) enabled him to last longer than most of the Hulk's opponents.

Picture the Thing as Rocky Balboa and the Hulk as Clubber Lang who (unlike in the Rocky III rematch) never gets tired but stronger as the rounds go deeper. No Adrian to bail out "this" Rocky. But maybe we'll see his Aunt Petunia one of these days? :D

Ironically....Mr. T was NOT the originator of the catchphrase "I pity the fool." That honor goes to the Hulk (Avengers #1).


Both issues are really old and deal with a hulk that fought and walked like a neanderthal. Today Hulk is nothing like that and despite Thing being quick he isn't in Hulks league in terms of speed.

[Mr Fixit]

For the purpose of the "goal" in hand, yes its a win. Did he beat Juggernaut in a physical fight? No. Could Juggernaut have come back in the time Mercury was crying? Probably but he didn't even leave the river after it was all said in done. He was ashamed of what he had to do, having almost destroyed the mansion again. There was no fight to go back to.



Classic Jugs powers by defintion is his durability with immense strength. He is not as strong as the Hulk but he is by far more durable. The only real loss I've ever read of Classic Juggernaut that took this into consideration was his loss against Thor. There is not supposed to be any level of damage the Hulk could inflict on Juggernaut that would damage him.

I'm not trying to offend Hulk-fanboys, but the point is that Juggernaut is supposed to be written as the anti-physical powerhouse that is weak against everything else and for the most part, is written as that.

Fanboys lol

We all post on the marvel forums I think when we start calling each other fanboys it's like the pot calling the kettle black...anyway.

Juggernauts durability is about the same as the Hulks and it's never been shown that if Hulk completely unleashed against Juggernaut that he would be able to take it. The fact that an all battle betwein the two would have totally messed up Hulks plans for revenge means that an epic battle was pointless. I am not sure where you get the idea that Juggernaut is physicaly untouchable or the idea that he is written in such a way.

[AnthonyJ]

I am not sure where you get the idea that Juggernaut is physicaly untouchable or the idea that he is written in such a way.
From the fact that he's usually (but not always) been presented that way. The Juggernaut is traditionally beaten by changing the terms of the fight so that it's no longer necessary to stop him with physical force (starting with his first appearance), and the way he was beaten in WWH:X-men #3 is completely consistent with that tradition.

We can assume, from the method the Hulk used, that he didn't think the straightforward method (brute force) would usefully work on the Juggernaut. As the WWH version of the Hulk is intelligent, we can also assume that this belief was reasonably accurate.

[Archmage]

From the fact that he's usually (but not always) been presented that way. The Juggernaut is traditionally beaten by changing the terms of the fight so that it's no longer necessary to stop him with physical force (starting with his first appearance), and the way he was beaten in WWH:X-men #3 is completely consistent with that tradition.

We can assume, from the method the Hulk used, that he didn't think the straightforward method (brute force) would usefully work on the Juggernaut. As the WWH version of the Hulk is intelligent, we can also assume that this belief was reasonably accurate.



Then I have to disagree with you there. The point wasn't that hulk didn't think the straightforward method wouldn't work, the point being emphasized was that the hulk didn't have the time to physically overpower him. Whether he could or could not overpower the juggernaut was left unanswered. He used his brains to determine that there was a better and more effective way to end the fight. Doesn't mean that hulk believed that he couldn't beat juggernaut man to man if given enough time.

[mattx110]

If Juggernaut is perfectly untouchable physically, how did Onslaught physically penetrate Juggernaut's chest and pull out the gem?
I'm assuming that is considered a physical assault against Cain?

he's onslaught!
there wasn't much he couldn't do. insane psycho psychic manifestation that took a teamup of every hero ever except spider-man and daredevil (who were stuck on the subay) and a few others to take him out.

[AnthonyJ]

Then I have to disagree with you there. The point wasn't that hulk didn't think the straightforward method wouldn't work, the point being emphasized was that the hulk didn't have the time to physically overpower him.
I said 'usefully work'. It's somewhat irrelevant whether or not it could have worked in the long term, as the fight didn't go into the long term. Based on prior battles, an unaugmented Hulk can't actually KO the Juggernaut, though his peak strength is higher.

[jigrig]

he's onslaught!
there wasn't much he couldn't do. insane psycho psychic manifestation that took a teamup of every hero ever except spider-man and daredevil (who were stuck on the subay) and a few others to take him out.

Only Hulk was powerful enough to defeat onslaught physically, I dont recall what comic it was in but onslaught physically knocked the crap out of Juggs sending him flying across the country yet He wasnt able to physically overcome Hulk.
End of debate.

[Green King]

Both issues are really old and deal with a hulk that fought and walked like a neanderthal. Today Hulk is nothing like that and despite Thing being quick he isn't in Hulks league in terms of speed.

You'd think that that would be the case but Marvel decided a long time ago that (with the existence of fans who love the Thing) that Ben Grimm would have the advantage of quickness and fighting skills to enable him to last for a while against the Hulk although it was also established that nothing that the Thing would do is capable of slowing the Hulk down.

It's no biggie to me. We BOTH know who is the superior of the two...and he's not made outta orange rocks (although there was that one time when the Hulk was Mr. Fixit and Grimm was further mutated with cosmic rays which made him bigger and much stronger....but heavier and slower and it was the Hulk who got in some good early shots although he ended up losing Fight #1 - Hulk comes back to win Fight #2 with a lot of cunning to go with his strength).

[Bulky Brent]

I've always been a fan of both of them and I though it was a great between the two they squeezed in there due to the fact that this is a Hulk crossover Focused on the Hulk, The Warbound, and the Illuminati.I definitely don't think less of The Thing after this fight.The fact of the matter is The Hulk has virtually no limit to his strength unlike the Thing so if they always exchange blows for blows when they fight the Hulk will always win.It probably be the same thing in the Ultimate Universe as well but thats another story.

[firstmode]

http://www.hulknews.com/hulkdatabase/hulk457-stopsjuggernaut.jpg

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[firstmode]

VS. The Incredible Hulk
(Fight One)




Nooow we're in the big leagues. Possibly the two strongest people on Earth going at it head-to-head. Now people have long wondered who would win between these two powerhouses. The Hulk is not only incredibly strong,he's amazingly durable and gets even stronger as he gets angrier. But in The Juggernaut he faces an opponent who may not only be a match for his increasing strength but who that no matter how strong Hulk gets he cannot hurt.

These two fought for the first time in The Incredible Hulk #172. This fight was given entirely too little space in the comic considering the sheer epic of this battle but I'm going to try to detail it as best I can. In this issue The Juggernaut is brought back to Earth from another dimension by a Hulkbuster attempt to banish the Savage Hulk from this plane of reality. The first attempt brings The Juggernaut to Earth and banishes Hulk. The Hulkbusters said that Juggernaut looked even more powerful than Hulk so they immediately tried to send him back. However this attempt only caused the Hulk to be brought back alongside The Juggernaut. Together Juggernaut and Hulk break out of the special cell and go their own way.


Cain has apparently gone a little mad during his dimensional exile and decides he wants to rule mankind. And he felt a good way to start his reign of terror was to kill a family of tourists driving along the highway. When he grabbed the father,Hulk leapt in to intervene.


The stage for battle was now set and Hulk started it off by charging into The Juggernaut's back. The Juggernaut responds by giving the Hulk a ram of his own which knocked him over a butte. Not relenting,Cain then rushes -through- the butte and battered Hulk against another one. Hulk manages to down The Juggernaut with a two-fisted hammer while Cain was bent over from ramming him. Hulk then ripped up the rock bed Cain's body was on and sent him flying out of sight.


The Hulk stood there thinking The Juggernaut vanguished but Cain is peering at Hulk from above on a cliff thinking to himself how that since no physical force can stop him that the Hulk was doomed. Cain then comes torpedoing down on Hulk slamming him to the ground. As The Juggernaut loomed over him Hulk tells him that he's been knocked down before but he always gets up. A point he emphasizes by raising to one knee and backpunching The Juggernaut. The Juggernaut then says that that might be true,but he's never fought anyone like him. Someone who while the Hulk was growing tired and his attacks getting weaker,remains fresh and only gets stronger. A point he emphasizes by taking Hulk's fatigued backhand like nothing and kicking Hulk to the ground. He then tells Hulk only because he considers Hulk nearly his equal in power that he was going to be quick about killing him. He wanted Hulk to rule with him and didn't really want to destroy him but he had to. An act he said he was going to perform by breaking Hulk's neck.


The Juggernaut grabs the Hulk by his face and hair to twist his neck and the Hulk screams in pain and anger. With a rage-induced escalation in strength the Hulk then reaches back and grabs Cain by the helmet and uses it to spin him around. Hulk says he's going to throw Juggernaut back to the base. The force separates Cain from his helmet and his body goes crashing into a mountain. Hulk,certain The Juggernaut is done with after that one tosses the helmet aside and turns to walk away. At this point The Juggernaut thinks to himself and reaches the conclusion that Hulk's mind is too simple to comprehend that he cannot be stopped. With Hulk seemingly oblivious that he is unscathed The Juggernaut poises to attack him from behind.


Then,just by the sheerest and most hilarious coincidence,Professor Xavier,Marvel Girl,and Cyclops show up having just been driving by. With few words,Professor X and Jean Grey give the helmetless Juggernaut a double psi-blast while Cyclops(I guess for theatrical effect) used his optic beams. Needless to say Cain fell like a sack of potatoes. And thanks to Cyclops,a smoking sack of potatoes.


Favorite Fight Quote:"UHHH!"-The Juggernaut,as the X-Men popped up completely out of the blue an unloaded on him as he about to nail an unsuspecting Hulk.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*The Juggernaut later fought a team consisting of the Savage Hulk again and a young kid who'd gained possession of the gem of Cyttorak in a mostly off-panel battle revealed in Avengers:West Coast #64. The kid apparently vanquished The Juggernaut with a beam from the gem.


**The Juggernaut fought the Merged Hulk in The Incredible Hulk#402 but while it was pretty good it doesn't rank in the Top 5 Juggernaut battles. Cain attacked the Hulk while wearing streetclothes instead of the Juggernaut armor so that the Hulk would not know who he was. By the time Hulk realized he was fighting someone that powerful it was too late and he'd found himself being beaten senseless. The Red Skull had to order Cain to stop before he pummelled the Hulk to death.


***Juggernaut and Hulk fought again,sorta,in The Incredible Hulk #457. I say "sorta" because what he fought wasn't really Hulk as we know him,but War,the horseman of Apocalypse. As War Hulk's strength was boosted significantly by Celestial technology which enabled him to draw as much power as he needed on command from the entire Heroes Reborn universe. And just for icing,Apocalypse also bestowed War with Celestial weaponry of untold power. Needless to say The Juggernaut didn't stand up too shiningly against a deck that stacked and pretty much just got knocked around. An opportunity for a classic battle pretty much tossed away in favor of a rather pointless mismatch. Very disappointing.


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[firstmode]

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[firstmode]

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[Lombardo!]

i dont wanna even get started on the ol' Unstoppable Juggernaut VS Unmovable Blob argument :D

[firstmode]

PLEASE!!! I DON'T THINK SO!



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[firstmode]

NOTHING CAN STOP THE BLOB!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/images/thumb/7/7e/Blob01.jpg/200px-Blob01.jpg

Except for Scarlet witch of course....

[firstmode]

The Warbound would getting their butts kicked by "Pinkies" on Planet hulk, how are they so powerful they can stop Spider Man, who can lift 20 tons and has joints so powerful and flexible that he can contort his body with the control of an agile animal?


Seriously!!!!

They did not even have spiderman TRY to unleash the full power of his webbing like he did in One More Day! HE could have tied most of those guys down! Doesn't it have the strength of steel!!!


What about Ms. Marvel and Wonderman!!!! They are SOOOO STRONG!! Why were they EASILY defeated by these Warbound clowns!!!!!!!!!!!

[Superbeast]

The Warbound would getting their butts kicked by "Pinkies" on Planet hulk, how are they so powerful they can stop Spider Man, who can lift 20 tons and has joints so powerful and flexible that he can contort his body with the control of an agile animal?


Seriously!!!!

They did not even have spiderman TRY to unleash the full power of his webbing like he did in One More Day! HE could have tied most of those guys down! Doesn't it have the strength of steel!!!


What about Ms. Marvel and Wonderman!!!! They are SOOOO STRONG!! Why were they EASILY defeated by these Warbound clowns!!!!!!!!!!!


Sakaar's harsh atmoshphere weakened the Warbound, including Hulk.

Earth's atmosphere is not as harsh and allows them more skills.

It's like the Moon's gravity compared to Earth. There it is barely restricted, here is is very restricted. However someone trained to jump on Earth can ascend to greater heights on the Moon due to the weaker gravity. Ergo, those that were strong on Sakaar are even stronger on Earth.

[Magneto Rocks]

Apparantly Ares cannot even take one punch from the Hulk, indeed.

As for the Warbound, don't get me started. At the least I'll say this, Korg COULD take out Wonder Man, but if he did it without demolishing at least a block or two of real estate... Wonder Man probably got jobbed.

[Kefky]

Um, he didn't lose to the Warbound, he lost to the Hulk...

[TotalWorldDomination]

I alwase thought of Ares as being on Par with Thor in power levels (and apparently so did stark and Ms. Marvel) so the fact that he pretty consistantly gets his arse handed to him (Ultron, the Warbound) is rather upsetting. If I recall correctly Tony says that it would basicly take every level 10 in the initatitve to take Ares down, and yet he dos'nt seem to be able to stand his ground against any villian he goes up against.

It makes no sense.... Unless he's a skrull ;)

[PatchMadripoor]

Planet Sakaar "pinkies" are on the strength level of common Asgardians. They're no slouches.

[Rahul]

Or they couldnt show the whole fight in the book....

[Magneto Rocks]

Or they couldnt show the whole fight in the book....

They do, he gets punched once and does not get up.

[Kefky]

I alwase thought of Ares as being on Par with Thor in power levels (and apparently so did stark and Ms. Marvel) so the fact that he pretty consistantly gets his arse handed to him (Ultron, the Warbound) is rather upsetting. If I recall correctly Tony says that it would basicly take every level 10 in the initatitve to take Ares down, and yet he dos'nt seem to be able to stand his ground against any villian he goes up against.

It makes no sense.... Unless he's a skrull ;)

Thor level...? Not really. He always got his ass promptly handed to him by both Thor and Hercules. Heck, he was always sort of a punching bag to all the Avengers. Most of the time he ended up looking embarrassed.

The problem with the current incarnation of Ares, though, is that nobody's really established how much better he's supposed to be than the old one. According to Oeming, the only change is that he's a weapon's expert, but that doesn't say much. I guess it just means he's craftier in a battle, which doesn't help against the Hulk.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Planet Sakaar "pinkies" are on the strength level of common Asgardians. They're no slouches.SPider-man has more or less humiliated Asgardians by himself, several at a time, so I think that he could at least put up a little bigger fight against a pinky in a fancy suite of armor.

[we3ster]

Well, I don't think Ares is as strong as Hercules is he? The Hulk had Hercules on his knees with his first punch.

[Camron Amaya]

No Ares isn't as strong as Hercules or Thor physicly. But he's still really powerfull and he's the God of war with many skills, so yea he got screwed over.

Like all Olympians, Ares is superhumanly strong, though far more so than the majority of his race. Among the Olympians, his strength is equaled only by his uncles, Neptune and Pluto, and is exceeded only by his father, Zeus, and his half-brother, Hercules.

Plus he even says so in the mini when he asks Hercules to show his legendary strength and throw him.

[MythicBrawn]

I would think Ares being the God of War would put him pretty high on the unbeatable level. He doesn't have to be the strongest but he would be extremely, if not excessively, capable in combat situations. Ares would be the god that inspired Sun Tzu's Art of War. Marvel has to downplay his abilities so others can shine. Ares, as I picture him, would be a good adversary for the Hulk but the other Warbound would be a nuisance.

[Lord Moon]

Um, he didn't lose to the Warbound, he lost to the Hulk...

No one's taking any notice of this then?

[Lord Moon]

I would think Ares being the God of War would put him pretty high on the unbeatable level. He doesn't have to be the strongest but he would be extremely, if not excessively, capable in combat situations. Ares would be the god that inspired Sun Tzu's Art of War. Marvel has to downplay his abilities so others can shine. Ares, as I picture him, would be a good adversary for the Hulk but the other Warbound would be a nuisance.

Sun Tzu's philosophy is so different to the ancient Greek way of fighting wars I don't think Ares had anything to do with it whatsoever. He might have inspired the 300 movie though.

[we3ster]

No one's taking any notice of this then?

I know he lost to the Hulk, I don't agree that him being the God of War automatically makes him a worthy adversary for the Hulk. He charged at the Hulk, Hulk dodged and flattened him, that's it, nothing to discuss. If he can't get back up, all his skill in warfare and weaponry are useless.

[thronzeblast]

Apparantly Ares cannot even take one punch from the Hulk, indeed.

As for the Warbound, don't get me started. At the least I'll say this, Korg COULD take out Wonder Man, but if he did it without demolishing at least a block or two of real estate... Wonder Man probably got jobbed.

Yeah hulk can take him but definately not with one punch the whole warbound avenger thing was ridiculous it's like you see the start of the fight you missed the middle and jump right to the end.At the start of that fight hiriom took luke cage out of the fight immediately which mean's the warbound already had an advantage as hiriom could have helped korg with wonderman or elleo with spidey etc but you never see any of that fight was not well done at all.Wonderman get's jobbed all time not a new developement.

[Rahul]

No one's taking any notice of this then?
Why bother? Its fun this way....

[ivesaidway2much]

Hmmm. Let's see. The Hulk took down Thing, She-hulk, Strong Guy, Doc Samson, and Juggernaut each with one punch. He beat Black Bolt and Juggernaut (for a second time). Had Hercules down and bruised after a couple of blows. Turned Colussus into a pretzel and tore through the rest of the X-teams single-handedly. Unless Ares is uber Thor, I thought the fight lasted about as long as it should have.

[we3ster]

Hmmm. Let's see. The Hulk took down Thing, She-hulk, Strong Guy, Doc Samson, and Juggernaut each with one punch. He beat Black Bolt and Juggernaut (for a second time). Had Hercules down and bruised after a couple of blows. Turned Colussus into a pretzel and tore through the rest of the X-teams single-handedly. Unless Ares is uber Thor, I thought the fight lasted about as long as it should have.

I also love the way that the blow the Hulk gave Ares also smashed the sword that was on his back............awesome!

[Hrungr]

Ares' biggest problem is that he'll charge in screaming into battle without a second thought (or even a first one), and he's paid for it in the past - remember Ultron? Also Ares is certainly not on Thor or Herc's level physically. He's a Class 75 *brawler* and though he has a good healing factor, he's not even bullet-proof like his peers. If the Hulk can put Class 100 She-Hulk down in one blow - Ares is not going to be much trouble.

I also love the way that the blow the Hulk gave Ares also smashed the sword that was on his back............awesome!
Yeah, I agree that was a great Jrjr panel.

As for the rest of the Warbound, I guess they're just that tough! There could be any number of reasons for this - Sakaar could be a heavy-grav planet, Elloe could have been wearing powered armor or for whatever reason they're just naturally that tough. We know the Brood came from an elite caste, perhaps one which is superhuman to other Brood, etc., etc..

[KirkWarren]

Hulk and the Warbound have plot armour. They cannot be touched in this story until a suitable deus ex machina is in place to end the event. While a fun story, if you think too much about it or wonder why the insanely powerful Ares or Wonderman or post-Other Spiderman are getting their ass handed to them by scrubs, you quickly find faults in the story and the premise falls apart.

[firstmode]

Man, I think they are jobbing hulks opponents big time!

[Kevinroc]

Man, I think they are jobbing hulks opponents big time!

You'd almost think that Hulk was the strongest one there is. :p

[Mike Smash!]

I would think Ares being the God of War would put him pretty high on the unbeatable level. He doesn't have to be the strongest but he would be extremely, if not excessively, capable in combat situations. Ares would be the god that inspired Sun Tzu's Art of War. Marvel has to downplay his abilities so others can shine. Ares, as I picture him, would be a good adversary for the Hulk but the other Warbound would be a nuisance.Actually the clever war god you're thinking of would be Athena. The goddess of warcraft and tactics, who inspired things like the Trojan horse.

Ares is just the "AAAAHHH!!! KILL 'EM ALL!" war god.

[Hrungr]

You'd almost think that Hulk was the strongest one there is. :p

Methinks it's just a pill too bitter to swallow for some. :D

[firstmode]

Lets see what Doctor strange does to the hulk!!!!

[Massder]

Just read up on your greek mythology guys. Ares is a punchbag for everyone ranging from demi gods to athena.

Though I can well understand the feeling of dissappointment one gets after seeing a "god of war" introduced only to be taken down like he is nothing.

[firstmode]

I am sorry, but I want the Hulk to lose!

I do not like what he is doing to new york city, he is basically a foreign invader.

I CANNOT WAIT until the sentry snaps out of it and carries the hulk into space and throws him into the Sun.

THE SUN WILL DEFEAT THE HULK!!!



------------------------------------------------------------

Our Sun is a normal main-sequence G2 star, one of more than 100 billion stars in our galaxy.

diameter: 1,390,000 km.
mass: 1.989e30 kg
temperature: 5800 K (surface)
15,600,000 K (core)
The Sun is by far the largest object in the solar system. It contains more than 99.8% of the total mass of the Solar System (Jupiter contains most of the rest).

It is often said that the Sun is an "ordinary" star. That's true in the sense that there are many others similar to it. But there are many more smaller stars than larger ones; the Sun is in the top 10% by mass. The median size of stars in our galaxy is probably less than half the mass of the Sun.

The Sun is personified in many mythologies: the Greeks called it Helios and the Romans called it Sol.

The Sun is, at present, about 70% hydrogen and 28% helium by mass everything else ("metals") amounts to less than 2%. This changes slowly over time as the Sun converts hydrogen to helium in its core.

The outer layers of the Sun exhibit differential rotation: at the equator the surface rotates once every 25.4 days; near the poles it's as much as 36 days. This odd behavior is due to the fact that the Sun is not a solid body like the Earth. Similar effects are seen in the gas planets. The differential rotation extends considerably down into the interior of the Sun but the core of the Sun rotates as a solid body.

Conditions at the Sun's core (approximately the inner 25% of its radius) are extreme. The temperature is 15.6 million Kelvin and the pressure is 250 billion atmospheres. At the center of the core the Sun's density is more than 150 times that of water.

The Sun's energy output (3.86e33 ergs/second or 386 billion billion megawatts) is produced by nuclear fusion reactions. Each second about 700,000,000 tons of hydrogen are converted to about 695,000,000 tons of helium and 5,000,000 tons (=3.86e33 ergs) of energy in the form of gamma rays. As it travels out toward the surface, the energy is continuously absorbed and re-emitted at lower and lower temperatures so that by the time it reaches the surface, it is primarily visible light. For the last 20% of the way to the surface the energy is carried more by convection than by radiation.

[Shai Hulud]

I am sorry, but I want the Hulk to lose!

I do not like what he is doing to new york city, he is basically a foreign invader.

I CANNOT WAIT until the sentry snaps out of it and carries the hulk into space and throws him into the Sun.

THE SUN WILL DEFEAT THE HULK!!!



------------------------------------------------------------

Our Sun is a normal main-sequence G2 star, one of more than 100 billion stars in our galaxy.

diameter: 1,390,000 km.
mass: 1.989e30 kg
temperature: 5800 K (surface)
15,600,000 K (core)
The Sun is by far the largest object in the solar system. It contains more than 99.8% of the total mass of the Solar System (Jupiter contains most of the rest).

It is often said that the Sun is an "ordinary" star. That's true in the sense that there are many others similar to it. But there are many more smaller stars than larger ones; the Sun is in the top 10% by mass. The median size of stars in our galaxy is probably less than half the mass of the Sun.

The Sun is personified in many mythologies: the Greeks called it Helios and the Romans called it Sol.

The Sun is, at present, about 70% hydrogen and 28% helium by mass everything else ("metals") amounts to less than 2%. This changes slowly over time as the Sun converts hydrogen to helium in its core.

The outer layers of the Sun exhibit differential rotation: at the equator the surface rotates once every 25.4 days; near the poles it's as much as 36 days. This odd behavior is due to the fact that the Sun is not a solid body like the Earth. Similar effects are seen in the gas planets. The differential rotation extends considerably down into the interior of the Sun but the core of the Sun rotates as a solid body.

Conditions at the Sun's core (approximately the inner 25% of its radius) are extreme. The temperature is 15.6 million Kelvin and the pressure is 250 billion atmospheres. At the center of the core the Sun's density is more than 150 times that of water.

The Sun's energy output (3.86e33 ergs/second or 386 billion billion megawatts) is produced by nuclear fusion reactions. Each second about 700,000,000 tons of hydrogen are converted to about 695,000,000 tons of helium and 5,000,000 tons (=3.86e33 ergs) of energy in the form of gamma rays. As it travels out toward the surface, the energy is continuously absorbed and re-emitted at lower and lower temperatures so that by the time it reaches the surface, it is primarily visible light. For the last 20% of the way to the surface the energy is carried more by convection than by radiation.


You know what that means? Throw the Hulk into the sun and he will absorb so much radiation that he will become a force of cosmic proportion...I wouldnt do that if I was the Sentry.

[Dark Soul # 7]

I am sorry, but I want the Hulk to lose!

I do not like what he is doing to new york city, he is basically a foreign invader.

I CANNOT WAIT until the sentry snaps out of it and carries the hulk into space and throws him into the Sun.I also want the Hulk to lose.

Mostly because right now he's a villain, and an ass, in my book.
Kick him of the planet again, he deserves it.

Hopefully the Avengers will get their revenge against the Warbound in the end when they remember that they're not newb superheros.

[Jake V]

Lets see what Doctor strange does to the hulk!!!!

Obviously nothing, given that he only fights him in #4 of 5.

[firstmode]

Man!

When Ms. Marvel, Ares, Wonderman, and Iron Man come back for the Warbound, they will lose! You know they lose or the planet has a new leader named hulk.

I am pretty sure the Infinity Guantlet would be used before that though.

[XPac]

Ares isn't exactly what I would consider a top tier powerhouse.

The handbooks place him in the class 70 category. Powerful certainly... but nowhere near Hulks ballpark.

[firstmode]

But come on! it is the Warbound!

Ironfist cracked that Shadowpriest dude's arm when he was using the Shadowfoce to turn to stone.

Is Ironfist more powerful?

[Bulky Brent]

That is dissapointing though that Iron Fist had a better showing than Ares in WWH.

[K Von Doom]

I also want the Hulk to lose.

Mostly because right now he's a villain, and an ass, in my book.
Kick him of the planet again, he deserves it.

Hopefully the Avengers will get their revenge against the Warbound in the end when they remember that they're not newb superheros.

Put the Warbound in a Fantastic Four or Avengers or Spiderman book 2 years ago and they would have been taken out in half an issue. This series is their moment in the sun, so there is jobbing to move the story along - the Avengers fought like morons and Mr Fantastic was reduced to implementing an idiotic plan. It's quite sad that the writer couldn't think of a more believable way to have the Warbound beat the Avengers and Fantastic Four.

As for Ares, yes he does get regularly schooled by Thor and Hercules.

[Superbeast]

You know what that means? Throw the Hulk into the sun and he will absorb so much radiation that he will become a force of cosmic proportion...I wouldnt do that if I was the Sentry.

We have a winner! Hulk is no Carnage. He will come back even more P.O.'d.

[XPac]

That is dissapointing though that Iron Fist had a better showing than Ares in WWH.

If Iron Fist was tackling the Hulk instead of a warbound member, we probably wouldn't be able to say that.

[XPac]

Put the Warbound in a Fantastic Four or Avengers or Spiderman book 2 years ago and they would have been taken out in half an issue. This series is their moment in the sun, so there is jobbing to move the story along - the Avengers fought like morons and Mr Fantastic was reduced to implementing an idiotic plan. It's quite sad that the writer couldn't think of a more believable way to have the Warbound beat the Avengers and Fantastic Four.

As for Ares, yes he does get regularly schooled by Thor and Hercules.

In all fairness, we didn't actually see the Avengers go down. It was all off panel. So it's possible that they were beaten in a believable way that we simply dodn't see.

[firstmode]

I do not care how much Gamma Radiation is being emmitted from the sun! if The Sentry flies the hulk into the center of the sun the molecules in his body will not be able to withstand the gravitational force, the heat, and the immense explosive reactions that happen inside of a star!!!

The Hulk would not survive if dragged into a star! NO WAY!

[K Von Doom]

In all fairness, we didn't actually see the Avengers go down. It was all off panel. So it's possible that they were beaten in a believable way that we simply dodn't see.

I guess I'm uncomfortable with all the off panel fights that seem to have Hulk and the Warbound conveniently triumphing most of the time. In Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos was clearly multiple power levels above the heroes but it still showed him fighting and beating each single hero, on panel, so you can see how Thanos handled each one. No questions spring to mind as to how each was beaten because it's there. From the get go with the World War Hulk series, we're given an off panel victory against Blackbolt which left a lot of people going "How did that happen?" This is probably why the WWH: X-men series was fun to read.

[firstmode]

If Blackbolt got a chance to scream..... THe moon would have been severly damaged or hulk would be floating off in space with no propulstion to get him back to the moon to fight black bolt.

He must have stopped Blackbolt before he could scream, the is the ONLY way. We will never know though...

[XPac]

If Blackbolt got a chance to scream..... THe moon would have been severly damaged or hulk would be floating off in space with no propulstion to get him back to the moon to fight black bolt.

He must have stopped Blackbolt before he could scream, the is the ONLY way. We will never know though...

The problem is that Black Bolt likely couldn't cut lose. At least not fully. Medusa was standing right next to him, and his city was reasonably close as well.

I imagine all he could do is unleash a few whispers... powerful certainly, but clearly not powerful enough to put Hulk down at his current power levels.

[firstmode]

Tis a shame we will never know and Blackbolt now has a loss on his record without the fight being viewed by the public. This will drop his stock in the most powerful superhero contest...

[Spiffy]

"Wow, So Ares cannot stop even one of the warbound?"


Well, obviously being a "God" doesn't mean what it used to...

[Crawford]

"Wow, So Ares cannot stop even one of the warbound?"


Well, obviously being a "God" doesn't mean what it used to...

Cmon, Ares has never been in the top tier of powerhouses - he was getting schooled on a reguler basis by Thor, Herc and even Namor! I don't have a problem with Hulk one shotting him at all.

[K Von Doom]

The problem is that Black Bolt likely couldn't cut lose. At least not fully. Medusa was standing right next to him, and his city was reasonably close as well.

I imagine all he could do is unleash a few whispers... powerful certainly, but clearly not powerful enough to put Hulk down at his current power levels.

Blackbolt's first whisper was enough to knock the Hulk a fair distance and flay his skin. He could have done that all day. Why didn't he just release subsequent whispers of the same level.

At worst, after knocking the Hulk back a few times and further each time, Blackbolt could made for space (for greater maneuverability) or Earth to consult with the other Illuminati. It wouldn't have been the bravest thing to do but if the reason he didn't release his full scream was because of concern for the moon, his city and his queen, he could have easily averted that via the action above.

I guess Blackbolt's intelligence is consistent with how Reed's intelligence was portrayed. :confused: :(

[XPac]

Blackbolt's first whisper was enough to knock the Hulk a fair distance and flay his skin. He could have done that all day. Why didn't he just release subsequent whispers of the same level.

At worst, after knocking the Hulk back a few times and further each time, Blackbolt could made for space (for greater maneuverability) or Earth to consult with the other Illuminati. It wouldn't have been the bravest thing to do but if the reason he didn't release his full scream was because of concern for the moon, his city and his queen, he could have easily averted that via the action above.

I guess Blackbolt's intelligence is consistent with how Reed's intelligence was portrayed. :confused: :(

Black Bolt might not wanna take off and leave his wife and city unprotected from the Hulk though. Of course, it's very possible Hulk wouldn't want to attack Black Bolts city... but I can buy Black Bolt not necessarily wanting to gamble on the Hulks good nature when he's mad like this.

[K Von Doom]

Black Bolt might not wanna take off and leave his wife and city unprotected from the Hulk though. Of course, it's very possible Hulk wouldn't want to attack Black Bolts city... but I can buy Black Bolt not necessarily wanting to gamble on the Hulks good nature when he's mad like this.

That could be the case. But it was still odd behavior from Blackbolt. Whisper, turn his back on Hulk, then be caught off guard. If he was concerned about his city and queen, he would have made sure Hulk was incapacitated after that first whisper. I'd always viewed Blackbolt as similar to Captain America in terms of battle savvy.

[XPac]

That could be the case. But it was still odd behavior from Blackbolt. Whisper, turn his back on Hulk, then be caught off guard. If he was concerned about his city and queen, he would have made sure Hulk was incapacitated after that first whisper. I'd always viewed Blackbolt as similar to Captain America in terms of battle savvy.

It's kinda hard to guage how battle savvy Black Bolt is. He doesn't speak and we don't even get thought bubbles... frankly most of the time he just kinda stands there and points. And he's so powerful, he rarely needs to use any actual battle tactics.

It's certainly not smart to just turn your back on the Hulk. Though perhaps Black Bolt simply underestimated the Hulk. He's beaten Hulk on multiple past occasions, so he might not have the same level of respect for the Hulks power that others have gained the hard way. He'll never make that same mistake again though.

[ivesaidway2much]

Blackbolt's first whisper was enough to knock the Hulk a fair distance and flay his skin. He could have done that all day. Why didn't he just release subsequent whispers of the same level.Umm, because that would be suicidal? I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the madder the Hulk gets, the stronger he gets. That's why making the Hulk angrier is usually a bad idea. In fact, I've heard from quite a few sources that you wouldn't like him when he's angry.

That and seconds after Black Bolt whispered the only damage left on the Hulk was a few superficial cuts. He probably didn't want to unleash a weapon of mass destruction with his cheating wife standing a few feet away. Black Bolt could win, but with the whisper not being enough, the scream not being a viable option, and the Hulk convinced that Black Bolt killed a million of his closest friends it wouldn't be easy.

[firstmode]

Too many excuses!

Reed should have done something like transport the hulk to the negative zone so he can rule over the insects over there.

[K Von Doom]

Umm, because that would be suicidal? I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the madder the Hulk gets, the stronger he gets. That's why making the Hulk angrier is usually a bad idea. In fact, I've heard from quite a few sources that you wouldn't like him when he's angry.

That and seconds after Black Bolt whispered the only damage left on the Hulk was a few superficial cuts. He probably didn't want to unleash a weapon of mass destruction with his cheating wife standing a few feet away. Black Bolt could win, but with the whisper not being enough, the scream not being a viable option, and the Hulk convinced that Black Bolt killed a million of his closest friends it wouldn't be easy.

I'm not arguing the fact that the angrier Hulk gets the stronger and more durable he gets, and probably heals faster too. The thing I see wrong is Blackbolt knows this first hand and yet he turns his back on a threat that had to be shot off into space by the smartest heroes on Earth. Blackbolt could have kept shooting the Hulk with his whisper, increasing in power to match the Hulk's increasing durability and healing as he gets angrier. I'm not an opera singer but I can control my whispers so that each one is louder than the last, and Blackbolt has trained himself to control his voice. A full scream was out of the question but anything between a scream and a whisper could have kept the Hulk at bay indefinitely.

[firstmode]

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/4756/412192xe2.jpg

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7720/412193td5.jpg

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/685/412194ci2.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4856/412195sn0.jpg

[firstmode]

In that last frame he should have screamed like a banshee and watched the hulk turn into dust. HEAL FROM THAT, A Big dust cloud blowing accross space!

[XPac]

In that last frame he should have screamed like a banshee and watched the hulk turn into dust. HEAL FROM THAT, A Big dust cloud blowing accross space!

With his wife like 2 feet away, I'm wagering a scream powerful enough to turn Hulk into dust would likely also be powerful enough to turn BlackBolt into a widower.

[dabig2]

Hulk has gotten the jump on BB before he could put up a defense before in the past. Same deal here. Hulk probably reached him just as he was about to utter something and gave him a good clobbing in the jaw.
And as Genis-vell learned, just because it slowed/affected him down just a second ago doesn't mean it'll work again. So BB may have tried to do a louder whisper but the Hulk was having nothing below a shout, which BB would've definitely and rightly been afraid to use in the .5 seconds he had to react.

As for the start, Ares...meh. Class 75 god. I bet Sampson is more durable and stronger and we all know he's a punching bag. Ares didn't deserve to receive the blessing of Hulk's pimp hand more than once.

[K Von Doom]

I'm not the biggest Hulk expert but I don't think he instantly jumps from 'being blown back by a whisper' durability to requiring 'a shout to stop him' durability, If so, that fight against Ironman should have taken all of two pages, the X-men all of 3 pages, and against Thing all of 3 panels. IMHO.

[Crawford]

It's kinda hard to guage how battle savvy Black Bolt is. He doesn't speak and we don't even get thought bubbles... frankly most of the time he just kinda stands there and points. And he's so powerful, he rarely needs to use any actual battle tactics.

It's certainly not smart to just turn your back on the Hulk. Though perhaps Black Bolt simply underestimated the Hulk. He's beaten Hulk on multiple past occasions, so he might not have the same level of respect for the Hulks power that others have gained the hard way. He'll never make that same mistake again though.

I would say that BB is savy. In the Inhumans series he managed to outscheme Maximus' of all people turning his mad brother's manipulation to his favour.
Turning your back on the Hulk without checking to see if he was down seems to be more PIS than anything. It seems to be an excuse.reason to explain how Hulk to get the drop on BB, for all we know Hulk cracked him one while BB was startled.. still would have liked to have seen the actual fight.

[Hrungr]

Remember that BB gets more than one "shot" off in the that fight, even though we don't see it. Their battle created tidal waves on Earth and pieces of the moon blown off (IIRC).

[firstmode]

Sentry will take care of the hulk due to being invulnerable.

I CANNOT WAIT! You Cannot Job The Sentry! (unless he is figting the living tribunal or the infinity guantlet)

[ivesaidway2much]

I'm not arguing the fact that the angrier Hulk gets the stronger and more durable he gets, and probably heals faster too. The thing I see wrong is Blackbolt knows this first hand and yet he turns his back on a threat that had to be shot off into space by the smartest heroes on Earth. Blackbolt could have kept shooting the Hulk with his whisper, increasing in power to match the Hulk's increasing durability and healing as he gets angrier. I'm not an opera singer but I can control my whispers so that each one is louder than the last, and Blackbolt has trained himself to control his voice. A full scream was out of the question but anything between a scream and a whisper could have kept the Hulk at bay indefinitely.Maybe I should have explained myself more clearly the last time. The Hulk gets madder each time someone hits him. Incremental increases in power against him are a bad idea because he does the same thing. What you've described here is the perfect way to make a scream-proof Hulk in about sixteen easy steps.

[Jmacq1]

I would think Ares being the God of War would put him pretty high on the unbeatable level. He doesn't have to be the strongest but he would be extremely, if not excessively, capable in combat situations. Ares would be the god that inspired Sun Tzu's Art of War. Marvel has to downplay his abilities so others can shine. Ares, as I picture him, would be a good adversary for the Hulk but the other Warbound would be a nuisance.

The thing is, Ares was never presented that way in mythology. He was always pretty much a boor and a brute (and often a somewhat cowardly brute when things didn't go his way). It was Athena that was the strategist and planner. Oeming seemed to want to make Ares capable of exceptional insight and tactics (which I have no problem with, BTW), but Bendis hasn't really capitalized on that, going for an interpretation that seems closer to the old myths.

I'd prefer Oeming's interpretation, honestly, as it makes for a more interesting character. Hopefully that'll start to come through later on. It's not as if many of their "godly" interpretations aren't vastly different from their mythological counterparts (Aphrodite and Ares are pretty much sworn enemies...in mythology she was sleeping with him behind her husband's back).

[Jmacq1]

Maybe I should have explained myself more clearly the last time. The Hulk gets madder each time someone hits him. Incremental increases in power against him are a bad idea because he does the same thing. What you've described here is the perfect way to make a scream-proof Hulk in about sixteen easy steps.

Yep, the best way to take the Hulk down is to hit him with your absolute biggest gun straight out of the gate, before he can get angry enough to be invulnerable to anything you bring to bear.

Unfortunately in this instance Hulk showed up enraged to begin with.

[Barnaby]

BB was probably caught off-guard (see last panel of that page) and couldn't utter more than a last "HEY!"...
If he had screamed, he would destroy part of the moon, a small part of the earth, his city, his wife and the Hulk would be a cloud of atoms on his way to Saturn by now...

[Dark Soul # 7]

I still say that the greatest way to end the Hulk/Black Bolt fight would've been if Black Bolt said "Begone" just loud enough to send Hulk crashing of to Earth.

That would've been awesome.:D

[Nate Grey]

I'm not arguing the fact that the angrier Hulk gets the stronger and more durable he gets, and probably heals faster too. The thing I see wrong is Blackbolt knows this first hand and yet he turns his back on a threat that had to be shot off into space by the smartest heroes on Earth.

Its called arrogance. Plus his cheerleader/cheating wife probably didn't help matters hyping him up like that, either.

[Nate Grey]

You know what that means? Throw the Hulk into the sun and he will absorb so much radiation that he will become a force of cosmic proportion...I wouldnt do that if I was the Sentry.

Thanks, my eyes kinda glazed over all that text. I think it would be cool if that's exactly was DOES happen, Sentry shows up, throws Hulk into the sun, the heroes celebrate...then the Hulk comes back, RED (and I don't mean angry, though he's that too), then beats Sentry like he stole something.

Warbound leaves Earth, Red Hulk pimp slaps Watcher just because, etc etc.

[Sabaition]

I like the whole Hulk going crazy and just laying into people. But not at the cost of making other charecters look like a joke. I mean, THE THING, he just drops the THING... No... Just another example of Marvel letting good characters turn to punks.

The Thing shoulda giving the Hulk a serious fight. I mean, when your threating his family, he'll fight you to the death. It's his M.O., what makes him the (for those of you who recall) the champion, an has saved Franklin on more then one occasion. An someone said they have respect.. BS... The Thing has never held back with the Hulk because he knows he can take it. An the Hulk never takes it easy on the Thing because he on more then one occasion has tried to kill him in their fights. Marvel has been making the Thing a punk to much lately. But to have him and several others get taken down like ants is uterly moronic. After this, we wont beleave anyone can fight the Hulk one on one again... Thor and Sentry need to step in soon...

[Kevinroc]

World War Hulk writer Greg Pak studied political science at Yale, was a Rhodes Scholar and studied history at Oxford. "Stupid" is not a word I would use to describe him.

[Cayman]

Have we entered Bizarro World?

[ivesaidway2much]

Man, I wish I was as stupid as Greg Pak. Maybe then Marvel would pay me to write the number one selling comic at the retail level three months in a row. In addition to another top ten book.

[Sabaition]

Then I am confussed because according to Marvel Universe Hulk can achive sub-sonic speeds.

The Hulk can run build up speed. But when it comes to reflex's and agility, the Thing is faster. An the reason people are suprise with Hulk and Things speed is because Hulk weighs 1000lbs and Thing weighs 550lbs. You would expect them to be slow and clumsy. But they're both quit the athletic...

[Mr Fixit]

Man, I wish I was as stupid as Greg Pak. Maybe then Marvel would pay me to write the number one selling comic at the retail level three months in a row. In addition to another top ten book.

LOL

I have heard the only way to be "Pak stupid" is to be talented....;)

[Sabaition]

Both issues are really old and deal with a hulk that fought and walked like a neanderthal. Today Hulk is nothing like that and despite Thing being quick he isn't in Hulks league in terms of speed.

WRONG!!! First time the Hulk and Thing fought the Hulk was NOT an idiot. An in his own words when the Thing punched him "THAT HURT! I ACTUALLY FELT THAT!"

An despite what people think of him when he's smart. Hulk is and never was a FIGHTER. He just throws wild punches. Last time I check, Banner never took boxing, wrestling, Judo and military training. Ben Grimm did, he was a Golden Gloves Champion, Super Powered Wrestling Champion, proclaimed the winner after fighting THE CHAMPION (who She-Hulk cant touch I don't know what that writer was thinking. Oh yeah... HE WASN'T). THis would be the perfect time for Reed to dose Ben with more cosmic rays and finally bring back the New Thing form. I would LOVE to see those to go toe to toe...

[g-dawg]

darn it guys, now I can't take a shot anymore. You got the good bits out!

[dabig2]

I'm not the biggest Hulk expert but I don't think he instantly jumps from 'being blown back by a whisper' durability to requiring 'a shout to stop him' durability, If so, that fight against Ironman should have taken all of two pages, the X-men all of 3 pages, and against Thing all of 3 panels. IMHO.

It's all about the rage factor. THe IM fight did last about a panel as soon as he remembered why he was there. Thing fight DID last about 3 panels. And the X-men thing, he was literally going through the motions at no cost to his health at all. BB just didn't bring enough the second time in the very little time he had to react to knock the Hulk backwards again.

[dabig2]

I'll give this thread my semi-serious reply. Hard to fight back when your inner equilibrium just got jacked up by a guy that pulls together continents. That is all.

[Mike Smash!]

WRONG!!! First time the Hulk and Thing fought the Hulk was NOT an idiot. An in his own words when the Thing punched him "THAT HURT! I ACTUALLY FELT THAT!"

An despite what people think of him when he's smart. Hulk is and never was a FIGHTER. He just throws wild punches. Last time I check, Banner never took boxing, wrestling, Judo and military training. Ben Grimm did, he was a Golden Gloves Champion, Super Powered Wrestling Champion, proclaimed the winner after fighting THE CHAMPION (who She-Hulk cant touch I don't know what that writer was thinking. Oh yeah... HE WASN'T). THis would be the perfect time for Reed to dose Ben with more cosmic rays and finally bring back the New Thing form. I would LOVE to see those to go toe to toe...

Jeez, buddy. Calm down.

Besides, those wild punches have won countless fights against the Thing over the years and since coming back from Sakaar, this Hulk's fighting skills have been far more focused than ever, after a year of having to fight things that could kill him and learning to use armor and weapons.

[Mr Fixit]

WRONG!!! First time the Hulk and Thing fought the Hulk was NOT an idiot. An in his own words when the Thing punched him "THAT HURT! I ACTUALLY FELT THAT!"

An despite what people think of him when he's smart. Hulk is and never was a FIGHTER. He just throws wild punches. Last time I check, Banner never took boxing, wrestling, Judo and military training. Ben Grimm did, he was a Golden Gloves Champion, Super Powered Wrestling Champion, proclaimed the winner after fighting THE CHAMPION (who She-Hulk cant touch I don't know what that writer was thinking. Oh yeah... HE WASN'T). THis would be the perfect time for Reed to dose Ben with more cosmic rays and finally bring back the New Thing form. I would LOVE to see those to go toe to toe...

..well as great as it is to be a superhero wrestling champ the current Hulk has dominated a whole planet. I understand that at the start The Thing deffently had the advantage with fighting prowess but to say that now is fair.

The Thing is and always will be a decent fighter but no more than that he may be clever but he let's his heart rule his mind and that's why he is vulnerble to being doused by a couple of strong pucnhes by a stronger foe.
Also The Thing is a team player he can do pretty well by himself but needs his team-mates around him.
The Hulk is a loner who is infamous for being in ill fated superhero teams,unfourtunatly The Thing got beaten because wasn't good enough.
I don't see it as treating him like a punk I see it as treating The Thing like he should be treated.

What hope would there be for Hulk if he couldn't get past The Thing?

[Sabaition]

World War Hulk writer Greg Pak studied political science at Yale, was a Rhodes Scholar and studied history at Oxford. "Stupid" is not a word I would use to describe him.

Okay then, he's not stupid, but he's still screwing up. I enjoy a good ol bashing like anyone else. But to make the Hulk WALK through all those hero's... No... An I could study things at great schools. Doesn't mean I'm great just means I think I know what I'm doing better then you. An did he graduate with A's cuz you can still pass a class with D's an get to say where you studied. Unless it was pass fail...
Anyway, bottom line, he's making character (GOOD CHARACTERS) look like chumps.

[Mike Smash!]

Sabaition, seriously take it down a notch. You're not Ben Grimm's lawyer.

[Sabaition]

Jeez, buddy. Calm down.

Besides, those wild punches have won countless fights against the Thing over the years and since coming back from Sakaar, this Hulk's fighting skills have been far more focused than ever, after a year of having to fight things that could kill him and learning to use armor and weapons.

Hmmmm, you do got a point with that... I'm still crossing my fingers for alil Thor/Hulk action...

[Sabaition]

Sabaition, seriously take it down a notch. You're not Ben Grimm's lawyer.

Lol, I must admit. I am acting like I'm talking about someone I know... Taking it down a notch... But JUST ONE notch...

[Sabaition]

..well as great as it is to be a superhero wrestling champ the current Hulk has dominated a whole planet. I understand that at the start The Thing deffently had the advantage with fighting prowess but to say that now is fair.

The Thing is and always will be a decent fighter but no more than that he may be clever but he let's his heart rule his mind and that's why he is vulnerble to being doused by a couple of strong pucnhes by a stronger foe.
Also The Thing is a team player he can do pretty well by himself but needs his team-mates around him.
The Hulk is a loner who is infamous for being in ill fated superhero teams,unfourtunatly The Thing got beaten because wasn't good enough.
I don't see it as treating him like a punk I see it as treating The Thing like he should be treated.

What hope would there be for Hulk if he couldn't get past The Thing?

I'm not saying the Thing should/could or would stop the Hulk. Because well.. He can't when it's all said and done. What I am saying is that the Thing doesn't go down that easily when it comes to his family. The Thing is most famous for pushing past his limits to protect those he loves. To the point that he would rather kill or be killed then lose. However like many writers lately, they've changed him from the cool, tough Thing to the funny, punching bag to show how serious the other guy is Thing.

[Mr Fixit]

To be fair seeing as this WWH series is limited to single issue numbers and the whole point is that Hulk extracted revenge on a number of heroes there was never going to be enough time to give hero enough space for each fan of that respected hero feelings of justifcation.

Personaly I am sitting pretty as a Hulk fan because from my point of view Hulk has been shat on by many a hero and villan alike.
I think Pak has done a good job so far with WWH not everything is brilliant but it's deffently a fun read.

Anyway I am fan people like me can't be pleased all the time ;)

[Hrungr]

Also keep in mind that while training is all well and good, in the end experience is what counts the most. The Hulk has been in countless fights, without a team backing him up, against just about everyone in the MU at one time or another. The Hulk may have a brawling style of fighting, but it works.

[Badfish40oz]

I still say that the greatest way to end the Hulk/Black Bolt fight would've been if Black Bolt said "Begone" just loud enough to send Hulk crashing of to Earth.

That would've been awesome.

For who? The 25 people in the world that would rather see Blackbolt win?

[Grimm]

WRONG!!! First time the Hulk and Thing fought the Hulk was NOT an idiot. An in his own words when the Thing punched him "THAT HURT! I ACTUALLY FELT THAT!"

An despite what people think of him when he's smart. Hulk is and never was a FIGHTER. He just throws wild punches. Last time I check, Banner never took boxing, wrestling, Judo and military training. Ben Grimm did, he was a Golden Gloves Champion, Super Powered Wrestling Champion, proclaimed the winner after fighting THE CHAMPION (who She-Hulk cant touch I don't know what that writer was thinking. Oh yeah... HE WASN'T). THis would be the perfect time for Reed to dose Ben with more cosmic rays and finally bring back the New Thing form. I would LOVE to see those to go toe to toe...

The Hulk has recieved loads of power ups to take him way past Benjy's strength.

You're right that Ben is a much better fighter than the Hulk, and that seems to be laid out in the comic book. Not to say that Hulk hasn't gained some skill but Ben plain outfights jadejaws. He just got his ass handed to him by a stronger opponent. Gladiator pretty much knocked Ben out with one punch too in FF #249. Well a punch and a throw but he got seriously manhandled..

That's just the way it goes, Ben is the lovable loser.

[Barnaby]

For who? The 25 people in the world that would rather see Blackbolt win?

I think you have more than 25 people wanting to see Hulk's a$$ being kicked... I always liked the Hulk but he's turning into a bully in this event. He's going way over the line. I hope he gets his butt kicked just to tone down his "God complex"!

[wolfblade]

I think you have more than 25 people wanting to see Hulk's a$$ being kicked... I always liked the Hulk but he's turning into a bully in this event. He's going way over the line. I hope he gets his butt kicked just to tone down his "God complex"!

he is what the illuminati made him into, he is nothing more than a action to there reaction IMO they should blame there selfs. I am not saying they were wrong or right to send the hulk away but in the end it was there choices that affected who the hulk has become. vengece is never a pretty thing.