WORLD WAR HULK Battle Debate Thread

[marty is ruling]

The Hulk has recieved loads of power ups to take him way past Benjy's strength.

You're right that Ben is a much better fighter than the Hulk, and that seems to be laid out in the comic book. Not to say that Hulk hasn't gained some skill but Ben plain outfights jadejaws. He just got his ass handed to him by a stronger opponent. Gladiator pretty much knocked Ben out with one punch too in FF #249. Well a punch and a throw but he got seriously manhandled..

That's just the way it goes, Ben is the lovable loser.

Thing really didn't have a chance in that fight, because Gladiator threw a car and started endangering civilians in order to take Grimm out easily.

If this is the same issue I'm thinking of anyway.

[Van Custo]

Sentry will take care of the hulk due to being invulnerable.

I CANNOT WAIT! You Cannot Job The Sentry! (unless he is figting the living tribunal or the infinity guantlet)

Well that was pretty humorous.

[Kefky]

Jesus Christ, people, 5 pages of this?

[Crawford]

Jesus Christ, people, 5 pages of this?

Nope, not 5 Kefky, you just made it 6 pages!

[ivesaidway2much]

The Hulk has recieved loads of power ups to take him way past Benjy's strength.

You're right that Ben is a much better fighter than the Hulk, and that seems to be laid out in the comic book. Not to say that Hulk hasn't gained some skill but Ben plain outfights jadejaws. He just got his ass handed to him by a stronger opponent. Gladiator pretty much knocked Ben out with one punch too in FF #249. Well a punch and a throw but he got seriously manhandled..

That's just the way it goes, Ben is the lovable loser.I would agree that Ben certainly has much better technique than the Hulk. If he was in a boxing match with the Hulk, Ben would have a good chance at winning on points. But stuff like boxing, judo, and Kung fu don't make much sense for the Hulk. They're all based on the concept of hitting/taking down your opponent before he hits you.

But that kind of strategy isn't really suited for the Hulk. With his thick skin and healing factor, taking a few shots isn't that big of a deal. Moreover, with the whole madder = stronger thing, it's actually in the Hulk's best interest to get knocked around a few times. I know I wouldn't get any angrier after dodging a guy's punch and then hitting him in the face. The Hulk was born to be brawler. So that's what does, and he does it pretty well.

[ivesaidway2much]

Well that was pretty humorous.I wish it was. Marvel could still go either way on the Sentry's power level. Has he even lost one fight since he was created?

[IronFister]

in Avengers Initiative Hulk says he jobbed Juggernaut yesterday (not "to" Juggy-lovers) when he was fighting that kid that turned into Juggernaut and his worst "fears"...

Hulk wins.

[IronFister]

I misread the title of this......

Hulk did NOT stop the Juggernaut.


Hulk DID win the fight however.

[hyzmarca]

In real life, small skinny black belts get beaten up by huge bodybuilders with no fighting experience. Skill is not a substitute for huge amounts of reach and strength.

[tkitna]

I wish it was. Marvel could still go either way on the Sentry's power level. Has he even lost one fight since he was created?

Not physically. Some people like to say that Iron Man beat him when Stark overloaded CLOC, but whatever. They also might throw the Ultron fight out there when the Sentry was holding back and the fight never actually ended. Again whatever.

[Green King]

I would agree that Ben certainly has much better technique than the Hulk. If he was in a boxing match with the Hulk, Ben would have a good chance at winning on points. But stuff like boxing, judo, and Kung fu don't make much sense for the Hulk. They're all based on the concept of hitting/taking down your opponent before he hits you.

But that kind of strategy isn't really suited for the Hulk. With his thick skin and healing factor, taking a few shots isn't that big of a deal. Moreover, with the whole madder = stronger thing, it's actually in the Hulk's best interest to get knocked around a few times. I know I wouldn't get any angrier after dodging a guy's punch and then hitting him in the face. The Hulk was born to be brawler. So that's what does, and he does it pretty well.


Again...when I think of the Thing/Hulk fights I think of Rocky Balboa (in the rematch) taking on Clubber Lang...only THIS "Clubber Lang" gets stronger as the rounds continue despite "Rocky" landing some good clean quick shots...and as Apollo Creed (who would be Reed Richards) feared..."Rocky" would go 7 rounds...and (as quoted by Creed in Rocky III) "then he'll be outta steam man.

And I have to disagree with one of the posters. Out of the Hulk's core incarnations..."Mr. Fixit" is a very good (abeit sometimes "sneaky") fighter...and in the fight that the Hulk "lost" to the "Pineapple Thing" it was the Hulk who got in some good quick shots despite the Thing being much stronger (at the time).

[XPac]

I wish it was. Marvel could still go either way on the Sentry's power level. Has he even lost one fight since he was created?

I suppose you could argue he lost round one of his fight with the Collective in space. He didn't seem actually seem hurt (more pushed back than anything else) and he was fighting a pretty uber power being so it wasn't what I'd call a bad or even decisive loss.

[Mike Smash!]

Again...when I think of the Thing/Hulk fights I think of Rocky Balboa (in the rematch) taking on Clubber Lang...only THIS "Clubber Lang" gets stronger as the rounds continue despite "Rocky" landing some good clean quick shots...and as Apollo Creed (who would be Reed Richards) feared..."Rocky" would go 7 rounds...and (as quoted by Creed in Rocky III) "then he'll be outta steam man.

And I have to disagree with one of the posters. Out of the Hulk's core incarnations..."Mr. Fixit" is a very good (abeit sometimes "sneaky") fighter...and in the fight that the Hulk "lost" to the "Pineapple Thing" it was the Hulk who got in some good quick shots despite the Thing being much stronger (at the time).I think Rocky/Clubber is a great analogy, except the Hulk doesn't get tired. ;)

But Ben really is Rocky Balboa in this fight and it's about about how this guy doesn't really have much of a realistic shot of beating Hulk, but he's just so damned determined and willing to just keep getting back up that he turns what should be a slaughter into a competitive fight.

[Green King]

I think Rocky/Clubber is a great analogy, except the Hulk doesn't get tired. ;)

But Ben really is Rocky Balboa in this fight and it's about about how this guy doesn't really have much of a realistic shot of beating Hulk, but he's just so damned determined and willing to just keep getting back up that he turns what should be a slaughter into a competitive fight.

Re-read my post. I pointed out that "Clubber Lang" (the Hulk) get's stronger as the rounds continue...and that Apollo Creed's (Reed Richards) fear of "Rocky" (The Thing) getting tired in the 7th round becoming a realization. :D

That's PROBABLY why I like this sequel of Rocky the best.

[Green King]

And if the Hulk lands a good shot at the Thing...ol' Blue eyed Benjamin Grimm won't be shoutin' in defiance, "Ain't so bad...ain't so bad....ain't so bad...you're nothin'".....'cause he'll be out like a light. :p

[IamtheRock3]

it most of these stories

OUR WORLDS AT WAR

WORLD WAR 3

BLOOD AND THUNDER


are basicly stories about a single charcter kicking butt. Some of the fights involve Jobbing, some dont


What fightings in World war Hulk made you scream Jobbing and what ones you think was done well


Done Well- Juggernaught always wonder why nobody dont just tossed the guy instead of getting into a slugfest. Really tossed him into space. What the heck he going to do about it. Hulk answer by stating its nothing Juggy would be able to do about


Done poor- Black bolt, first off it was off screen, which always lame. And really he should of done more damage. Zom...really taken out by a few punches. Dont mind Hulk winning but come on now

[thronzeblast]

it most of these stories

OUR WORLDS AT WAR

WORLD WAR 3

BLOOD AND THUNDER


are basicly stories about a single charcter kicking butt. Some of the fights involve Jobbing, some dont


What fightings in World war Hulk made you scream Jobbing and what ones you think was done well


Done Well- Juggernaught always wonder why nobody dont just tossed the guy instead of getting into a slugfest. Really tossed him into space. What the heck he going to do about it. Hulk answer by stating its nothing Juggy would be able to do about


Done poor- Black bolt, first off it was off screen, which always lame. And really he should of done more damage. Zom...really taken out by a few punches. Dont mind Hulk winning but come on now



I really enjoyed the fight's in the world war hulk x-men tie-in well done and not much jobbing once it was establised that telepathy was not gonna stop the hulk there was not many people there capable of putting him down unless they went lethal.Kitty had a good shot Darwin and monet were pretty much battle field removals.I dont know what to say about the fights in the main book this event is pretty straight forward hulk come's to earth looking for revenge yeah they are plot twist here and there but we know it's pretty much about the fight's.So here is an idea i actually want to see the fight not the start of the fight and then the opponent lying on the floor.

[ivesaidway2much]

Korg running like a scared little girl from the pyschic image of Thor. The biggest and most embarassing loss of the entire event so far.

[Magneto Rocks]

Not Hulk himself, but the Avengers vs the Warbound was ridiculous jobbing.

Mister Fantastic's IQ dropping to about 50 before he fought Hulk could also be considered jobbing.

But the Zztrange fight definitely takes the cake.

[Shyft]

Not Hulk himself, but the Avengers vs the Warbound was ridiculous jobbing.



That was such a joke, i completely agree. You telling me all those Avengers couldn't even take down the Brood drone? Bs.

[Magneto Rocks]

i completely agree.

Another one for the list. :D

[Mr Fixit]

The feed back that a lot of fans think some of the fights were jobbed makes you wonder if WWH could have done with futher expantion throughout Marvel comics or WWH main title running for longer.

I don't recall people having this issue with Hulk 300 when Hulk went up against almost as many heros and gave them a damn good beating.
It was only when Doc Strange zapped him into the cross-roads the rampage quelled. Thing is I wouldn't want my favourite super team to be beaten easly by a new set of characters.

People who followed Planet Hulk do have a better apprcation of The Warbound and why they are so powerfull. However that doesn't mean the fight shouldn't have been harder for the War-Bound.
A two-part or even bumper edition Avengers v Warbound would have gone a long way to stopping a lot of the upset caused to fans.
The problem is fans never want to see there favourite heros crushed by a rival and as much as I can sympathise with how avenger fans feel they were treated some fans of other heros i.e Luke Cage,Thing and Wolverine just belly ache because Hulk beat thier hero.

I think the term "jobbed" is over used for a number of heros that have gone up against Hulk but Doctor Strange and the Avengers could have been treated with a bit more respect I feel.

[Ben Morgan]

This may sound stupid, but what is "jobbing"?

[Mr Fixit]

In real life, small skinny black belts get beaten up by huge bodybuilders with no fighting experience. Skill is not a substitute for huge amounts of reach and strength.

Have to say the good money should be on the black belt muscle mass slows people down and it's no good being strong if you are not fast enough to hit anything.

The problems is that is the human world Hulk is fast and strong ...and a great fighter I think at present he beats The Thing down in every concern.

[Mr Fixit]

This may sound stupid, but what is "jobbing"?

Your not stupid you just don't know the meaning of the word and that my friend is what questions are for ;)

Jobbing is basicly a term to discribe when an oppenent is too easily defeated just to make the other better.
Best way to imagine this is in the world of wrestling when a huge wrestler (who may not be well skilled) destroys a smaller oppnent with ease.

This may not be the outcome if the fight was not designed in this way but certain wreslters are employed to lay down regardless of wether they really are the better fighter or not.

In WWE Triple H has been accused of forcing his oppnents to job for him just so he can look like a legend.

[marty is ruling]

In real life, small skinny black belts get beaten up by huge bodybuilders with no fighting experience. Skill is not a substitute for huge amounts of reach and strength.

This is not always true. First...martial arts mean absolutely nothing in a real fight. I've been in a few.

Size does have it's advantages, but I've watched a 130 lb guy beat the hell out of a guy 250 lbs.

Brute force and power means nothing to person who doesn't know how to use it.

Basically every fight comes down to who has the strongest will and ability to inflict hurt.

Of course none of this means anything when you factor in the Hulk. They've made him so powerful...it's ridiculous.

[bjtrdff]

I understand that there is a point where suspension of disbelief is necessary to make a story like this work.

But no way in hell should the series have played out like this. Strange should have shoved Hulks head up his ass no problem. The MA together should have been able to basically rape the warbound and dogpile the hulk. The entire X-teams combined should have been able to defeat him. And with all this teleportation technology around the MU, you're telling me Hulk can't be throw into space or the sun with relative ease?

I hope Sentry absolutely destorys the Hulk as he should, if only to make up for the nonsense we've seen.

[Mr Fixit]

I understand that there is a point where suspension of disbelief is necessary to make a story like this work.

But no way in hell should the series have played out like this. Strange should have shoved Hulks head up his ass no problem. The MA together should have been able to basically rape the warbound and dogpile the hulk. The entire X-teams combined should have been able to defeat him. And with all this teleportation technology around the MU, you're telling me Hulk can't be throw into space or the sun with relative ease?

I hope Sentry absolutely destorys the Hulk as he should, if only to make up for the nonsense we've seen.



See that's all very well and angry but...

Marvel wanted WWH and they got WWH if those theories did bear any fruit then you would have a WWH hell you wouldn't have a Hulk because he would have been killed.
Anyway Hulk is THAT powerful and that's why he could do what he did,yes some aspect should have been handled better but maybe you should deal with the Hulk can take out a lot of people given the right amount of rage.

[Lord Moon]

What is this obsession with throwing people into the Sun? This would make for a pretty rubbish Marvel Universe if this was a valid tactic.

"Doctor Doom has attacked again and this time his plan is foolproof!"
"Throw him into the Sun"

"The Mole Man has sent large monsters to menace us!"
"Throw them and him into the Sun"

"The Skrulls have taken over!"
"Find out who they are and throw them into the Sun"

"Venom has..."
"Sun"

[Mr Fixit]

What is this obsession with throwing people into the Sun? This would make for a pretty rubbish Marvel Universe if this was a valid tactic.

"Doctor Doom has attacked again and this time his plan is foolproof!"
"Throw him into the Sun"

"The Mole Man has sent large monsters to menace us!"
"Throw them and him into the Sun"

"The Skrulls have taken over!"
"Find out who they are and throw them into the Sun"

"Venom has..."
"Sun"


Well said :)

I wonder what you would do with Sun-Man ? :P

[Massder]

What is this obsession with throwing people into the Sun? This would make for a pretty rubbish Marvel Universe if this was a valid tactic.

"Doctor Doom has attacked again and this time his plan is foolproof!"
"Throw him into the Sun"

"The Mole Man has sent large monsters to menace us!"
"Throw them and him into the Sun"

"The Skrulls have taken over!"
"Find out who they are and throw them into the Sun"

"Venom has..."
"Sun"

HAHAHA! This is the best post ive read here in months! Good post!!!!

[Lord Moon]

Well said :)

I wonder what you would do with Sun-Man ? :P

Never mind him, according to certain posters here Job-Man would be king of the universe.

[Kevinroc]

If you look at comics from this kind of mentality, you will never enjoy them. Yes, a good action scene can be fun. But that's not the central issue of a story.

[Dark Soul # 7]

I don't mind the Avengers and Fantastic Four lsoing to the Warbound. It's how easy they lost that bothers me.

All members on both teams have fought opponents that are stronger and/or more skilled than them, both by themselves and in teams, for most of their lives.

Suddenly it seems like they've forgotten the most basic thing of their superhero life. How to throw down in a free for all super-brawl.

They could've lost and all would be well, but it should've taken at least half of #2 for the Warbound just to take down the Avengers that were gathered there.

[Dark Soul # 7]

If you look at comics from this kind of mentality, you will never enjoy them. Yes, a good action scene can be fun. But that's not the central issue of a story.Wow, you're fast, unless you weren't responding to my post anyway.

What is the central issue of this story. So far it's been lets stop the Hulk and his new friends with appearantly worthless attempt after worthless attempt.
If there's any underlying theme about rage being always being bad it's totally lost in the dumbass crowd, in the comics, that support Hulk for no good reason.

[Kevinroc]

Wow, you're fast, unless you weren't responding to my post anyway.

What is the central issue of this story. So far it's been lets stop the Hulk and his new friends with appearantly worthless attempt after worthless attempt.
If there's any underlying theme about rage being always being bad it's totally lost in the dumbass crowd, in the comics, that support Hulk for no good reason.

The central issue is whether Tony Stark's measures for security are worth it or not. This is, for all intents and purposes, a continuation of Civil War. Tony has implemented his plans for the world and we're seeing what the cost of that is.

[Hidden Agenda]

What is this obsession with throwing people into the Sun? This would make for a pretty rubbish Marvel Universe if this was a valid tactic.

"Doctor Doom has attacked again and this time his plan is foolproof!"
"Throw him into the Sun"

"The Mole Man has sent large monsters to menace us!"
"Throw them and him into the Sun"

"The Skrulls have taken over!"
"Find out who they are and throw them into the Sun"

"Venom has..."
"Sun"

That sounds like a conversation the writers would have with the Editor if said editor was.....Homer Simpson

[Dark Soul # 7]

The central issue is whether Tony Stark's measures for security are worth it or not. This is, for all intents and purposes, a continuation of Civil War. Tony has implemented his plans for the world and we're seeing what the cost of that is.That's it? For this story that's pretty lame and it's being presented much better in other comics.

[Kevinroc]

That's it? For this story that's pretty lame and it's being presented much better in other comics.

What comics would you say are presenting this basic idea much better?

[Dark Soul # 7]

What comics would you say are presenting this basic idea much better?I'd say that most comics under the Initiative banner is doing it much better.

They're showing how the Marvel world works now, consequences and all.

WWH is showing that Hulk is a bully that hits on people for crimes he doesn't have even the slightest bit of evidence that they commited.

[Dark Soul # 7]

What comics would you say are presenting this basic idea much better?I'd say that most comics under the Initiative banner is doing it much better.

They're showing how the Marvel world works now, consequences and all.

WWH is showing that Hulk is a bully that hits on people for crimes he doesn't have even the slightest bit of evidence that they commited.

[Dark Soul # 7]

What comics would you say are presenting this basic idea much better?I'd say that most comics under the Initiative banner is doing it much better.

They're showing how the Marvel world works now, consequences and all.

WWH is showing that Hulk is a bully that hits on people for crimes he doesn't have even the slightest bit of evidence that they commited.

[K Von Doom]

Thing is I wouldn't want my favourite super team to be beaten easly by a new set of characters.


I don't think it's about our favorite heroes being beaten, it's about our favorite heroes being beaten in a believable way. No one complained when Thanos took out the elders, heroes and cosmic beings because it was explained and shown how he did it. There were no questions like "Why didn't Galactus do this?" or "Why didn't Dr Doom and Hulk do that?".

With World War Hulk it would take a little more creativity to show how Hulk can beat Blackbolt or how the Warbound can take out the Avengers. These fights are winnable by the Hulk and Warbound but they were handled poorly. They would have been epic if they were handled well but because we weren't shown anything new or creative about these fights, it just looks like the heroes jobbed to the Hulk and co. to move the story along. This shouldn't be the standard because then any weak-ass character can be shown to be a threat if a writer goes "Ok Stiltman beats Warlock and the Infinity Watch, off panel... then goes to beat the Avengers because they decide to fight like idiots". Character's personalities and histories shouldn't be compromised just to move a story along.

[XPac]

Not Hulk himself, but the Avengers vs the Warbound was ridiculous jobbing.

Mister Fantastic's IQ dropping to about 50 before he fought Hulk could also be considered jobbing.

But the Zztrange fight definitely takes the cake.

I'll agree with Strange.

Reed was about as effective against Hulk as he was every other time they have ever fought, so that's no biggie.


But I don't think we can fairly say the Avengers fight involved jobbing. It was off camera, so we don't actually know what happened in the fight. I wouldn't say it was impossible for the Avengers to lose in that situation, so it's possible what occured off screen was reasonable.

[Dark Soul # 7]

But I don't think we can fairly say the Avengers fight involved jobbing. It was off camera, so we don't actually know what happened in the fight. I wouldn't say it was impossible for the Avengers to lose in that situation, so it's possible what occured off screen was reasonable.The fight looked like it was just a few seconds from being over when we left it.

Cage, Samson, She-hulk and Ares were already taken out. Wonderman got taken out in one panel and Spider-man, Spider-woman and Ms.Marvel where basically at the mercy of the Warbound.

Then time between the Avengers losing and the FF fight starting couldn't have been more than like two minutes.

[IamtheRock3]

What is this obsession with throwing people into the Sun? This would make for a pretty rubbish Marvel Universe if this was a valid tactic.

"Doctor Doom has attacked again and this time his plan is foolproof!"
"Throw him into the Sun"

"The Mole Man has sent large monsters to menace us!"
"Throw them and him into the Sun"

"The Skrulls have taken over!"
"Find out who they are and throw them into the Sun"

"Venom has..."
"Sun"


understand this

But those guys that may be neccesary

But some guys it is kind of dumber to fight them at physcial level when they know doing that is dang near impossible

Like JUGGERNAUGHT

sometime battlefield is not the best option....its the ONLY option

[IamtheRock3]

If you look at comics from this kind of mentality, you will never enjoy them. Yes, a good action scene can be fun. But that's not the central issue of a story.

well I dont know
Thing A lot of people want story but with this STORY they were kind of expecting a good BIG OVER THE TOP BRAWL

So avenger vs warbounds should of been in a word "AWESOME"

but it was in a world lame

[XPac]

The fight looked like it was just a few seconds from being over when we left it.

Cage, Samson, She-hulk and Ares were already taken out. Wonderman got taken out in one panel and Spider-man, Spider-woman and Ms.Marvel where basically at the mercy of the Warbound.

Then time between the Avengers losing and the FF fight starting couldn't have been more than like two minutes.

Anyone who was fighting the Hulk would flat out lose. Hulk single handedly plowed through 3 teams of X-Men, so that in my book wouldn't be jobbing.

I don't have the book in front of me... did we actually see Avengers getting taken out? I think I recall Cage being blasted or something. But I only recall seeing the Avengers fighting, not being KOed in combat. Maybe I'll have to look again.

[XPac]

Doube post.

[Dark Soul # 7]

well I dont know
Thing A lot of people want story but with this STORY they were kind of expecting a good BIG OVER THE TOP BRAWL

So avenger vs warbounds should of been in a word "AWESOME"

but it was in a world lameAgreed.
We were promised a smash-fest unlike any other.

So far only issue 1 has really delivered on that.

[K Von Doom]

The Avengers were being carried off at the end of that fight.

[XPac]

The Avengers were being carried off at the end of that fight.

Yeah, I know they lost. But did they show any of them actually being beaten? Like I said, I'm not sure we can label anything jobbing if we didn't actually see the fight.

For all we know, the Warbound just kept them busy while the Hulk did all the heavy lifting.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Anyone who was fighting the Hulk would flat out lose. Hulk single handedly plowed through 3 teams of X-Men, so that in my book wouldn't be jobbing.

I don't have the book in front of me... did we actually see Avengers getting taken out? I think I recall Cage being blasted or something. But I only recall seeing the Avengers fighting, not being KOed or anything. Maybe I'll have to look again.When we do leave the fight Samson has been smashed by Hulk, awful match-up by the way. Luke Cage has been blasted away.

Wonderman is getting his head smashed between Korg's fists and it looks very finishing.

Ms.Marvel is wrapped up in Brood's tentacles anddoesn't seem able to get out, and her blasts aren't doing squat.

Spider-man is being pushed and zapped by Elloe, how he could not dodge that I have no idea.

Spider-woman is being chocked by Miek and her venom blasts do nothing.

They are definately at the mercy of the Warbound and like one and a half page later they are "smashed".

[Dark Soul # 7]

Yeah, I know they lost. But did they show any of them actually being beaten? Like I said, I'm not sure we can label anything jobbing if we didn't actually see the fight.

For all we know, the Warbound just kept them busy while the Hulk did all the heavy lifting.I'd say that the warbound treating such seasoned heroes like punks was jobbing.

They also seemed to forget several abilities. Why didn't Spider-man dodge or use webbing, couldn't Spider-woman have used her pheromones on some of the warbound, why didn't Wonderman fly up into the air with Korg etc?

[Mr Fixit]

I don't think it's about our favorite heroes being beaten, it's about our favorite heroes being beaten in a believable way. No one complained when Thanos took out the elders, heroes and cosmic beings because it was explained and shown how he did it. There were no questions like "Why didn't Galactus do this?" or "Why didn't Dr Doom and Hulk do that?".

With World War Hulk it would take a little more creativity to show how Hulk can beat Blackbolt or how the Warbound can take out the Avengers. These fights are winnable by the Hulk and Warbound but they were handled poorly. They would have been epic if they were handled well but because we weren't shown anything new or creative about these fights, it just looks like the heroes jobbed to the Hulk and co. to move the story along. This shouldn't be the standard because then any weak-ass character can be shown to be a threat if a writer goes "Ok Stiltman beats Warlock and the Infinity Watch, off panel... then goes to beat the Avengers because they decide to fight like idiots". Character's personalities and histories shouldn't be compromised just to move a story along.

Completly understand what you are saying and I didn't mean the only reason why people are annoyed is because thier favourite character is deafeated I was really just pointing out how some have responded.

Here is an example of why I can see the other side of the coin...

Despite the fact that the original D.C v Marvel thing was fan voted The Superman v Hulk fight was dumb beyound words. I can readly accept that Superman can beat Hulk but not in the brief disrecpectful manner of which he did in said cross over.
I also love the Marvel Universe and a strong showing by all heros makes the story better but they didn't do the Avengers justice as they didn't Doc Strange. Mister Fantastic can take a hike for all I care my personal dislike for this character means I wanted to see him deafeated and I think they did it just about right with him.
The Ghost Rider fight was a little odd too because nothing really happened and just as Ghost Rider unleasehed his full power he walked away.
Now maybe they didn't have to fight but the premise of the issue and the promise of the cover fooled the reader.

However to put back a little balance the X-Men had a really good showing and this should have been the way Avengers should have been done.

Oh and an intresting little thing from what I have read in Gamma Corp it looks like they have beaten up Hulk far more than any of the esatblished Marvel Teams....now that's strange.

[XPac]

I'd say that the warbound treating such seasoned heroes like punks was jobbing.

They also seemed to forget several abilities. Why didn't Spider-man dodge or use webbing, couldn't Spider-woman have used her pheromones on some of the warbound, why didn't Wonderman fly up into the air with Korg etc?

Most writers truthfully only have Spideys spider senses working half the time. Realistically no one short of Quicksilver should be able to lay a hand on him... but it happens more often than it should.

As for Spider Woman and Wonderman... the thing about a fight that occurs off panel is that we don't know for sure they didn't end up doing what you're suggesting they should do. What we saw was a single scene in a fight, then the end. It's possible that one scene was basically the fight in it's entirity... in which case I would agree they jobbed. But it's possible there's more to the fight than we saw.

[K Von Doom]

Most writers truthfully only have Spideys spider senses working half the time. Realistically no one short of Quicksilver should be able to lay a hand on him... but it happens more often than it should.

As for Spider Woman and Wonderman... the thing about a fight that occurs off panel is that we don't know for sure they didn't end up doing what you're suggesting they should do. What we saw was a single scene in a fight, then the end. It's possible that one scene was basically the fight in it's entirity... in which case I would agree they jobbed. But it's possible there's more to the fight than we saw.

It is possible that something happened off panel, but it is very unsatisfying the way a major fight scene mainly happens off panel. And that's two major fights in three issues for this series.

[XPac]

It is possible that something happened off panel, but it is very unsatisfying the way a major fight scene mainly happens off panel. And that's two major fights in three issues for this series.

Yeah. I kind of wish WWH was a longer series, or had an Avengers tie-in so we could see more of that fight.

The X fans really lucked out in their tie in.

[Shyft]

Warbound vs. the Avengers was definately jobbing. How many times has Ms. Marvel slaughtered countless Brood, Wonder Man is a class 100 and Ms. Marvel class 75 with energy absorbtion/expulsion powers. I dont doubt they could lose that fight, but the Warbound dont even come out injured. Miek, Brood should have been dead/soundly defeated, and Elloe maybe should have been at least a bit battered up.

[Kevinroc]

I'd say that most comics under the Initiative banner is doing it much better.

They're showing how the Marvel world works now, consequences and all.

WWH is showing that Hulk is a bully that hits on people for crimes he doesn't have even the slightest bit of evidence that they commited.

So if he wanted to hit them just for illegally shooting him into space, that wouldn't be okay? They did actually engage in kidnapping.

[AnthonyJ]

Pretty much all of the fights have been jobbing; it's kind of necessary to actually produce a story like this. Hulk's powerful, but he's not that powerful, and the Warbound don't have anything about them which suggests they're all that remarkable either. Particularly problematic is the fact that the Hulk gave his enemies an extended period of prep time. Without prep time, Reed Richards can't beat the Hulk. With time to come up with an Ultimate Weapon, Reed Richards can take out anybody. Similar, if lesser, problem with Iron Man. Doctor Strange doesn't even need significant prep time.

[BYC]

Definitely jobbing. I can buy the Warbound winning, since when they fight, their lives are on the line (before Hulk took over). Gladiators in fighting stories do very well on small scale battles, but not wars. Avengers vs. Warbound was definitely squad vs. squad combat that the Warbound specialize in.

But as many have suggested already, the ease the series is implying in taking down the Avengers is really the problem. It's debatable whether or not Hulk and the Warbound are villains in this arc, but it is also standard superhero fare to lose in the beginning, and then make the big comeback. At that point, I would not be surprised to see reverse jobbing.

[ultimate hulk]

I'd say that most comics under the Initiative banner is doing it much better.

They're showing how the Marvel world works now, consequences and all.

WWH is showing that Hulk is a bully that hits on people for crimes he doesn't have even the slightest bit of evidence that they commited.

what...just by sending the hulk into space...is cause enough for him to kill them...err...i mean hit them...:D

[azdoc]

He didn't stop him. Hulk avoided the confrontation with the Juggernaut. He sidestepped to avoid him and then shoved him, thus adding to his momentum. Hulk did so to buy time; he knew he didn't stop the Juggernaut. He was just seeking enough time away from the Juggernaut so that he could kill Xavier. Initially, the Hulk tried to knock him out but the Juggernaute was more than formidable in their ensuing fist fight so the Hulk changed strategies by trying to avoid him as opposed to stopping him or knocking him unconscious The Hulk's goal was to kill Xavier. In that sense, he was victorious because he gained the opportunity to kill Xavier. Stopping the Juggernaut means knocking him out; Hulk didn't do that. The writer's action confirms my belief. If Greg Pak could have figured a way for the Hulk to defeat the Juggernaut in a fistfight, he would have done so. He wasn't going to win a fistfight with the Juggernaut because his powers are magically enhanced so he wouldn't be vulnerable to the same physiological limitations(whether human or superhuman) his other opponents endured.

The only way for the Hulk to defeat the Juggernaut was to get him out of his way. If one wanted to argue the Hulk defeated the Juggernaut, I could accept that but he clearly didn't stop him.

The Hulk's history also supports my assertion. In the past, Hulk would flee fights in which the outcome was a close. (vs Thor) The Hulk would justify his leaping away from the battle by citing boredom. This was a similar incident.

[Mike Smash!]

Okay, this is not a Rumbles thread, but this is a thread for all of the debates, arguments and remarks about fights that have taken place in WORLD WAR HULK.

All in one thread.

[thronzeblast]

Pretty much all of the fights have been jobbing; it's kind of necessary to actually produce a story like this. Hulk's powerful, but he's not that powerful, and the Warbound don't have anything about them which suggests they're all that remarkable either. Particularly problematic is the fact that the Hulk gave his enemies an extended period of prep time. Without prep time, Reed Richards can't beat the Hulk. With time to come up with an Ultimate Weapon, Reed Richards can take out anybody. Similar, if lesser, problem with Iron Man. Doctor Strange doesn't even need significant prep time.



The time there were giving was a big problem hiriom and the hulk was suppose to have planned to take these guys out if they had arrived unannounced i could see the ease that ironman,reed,etc were taken out but to have that much time and still be beaten that badly.In term's of the fights being jobbed a couple of thing's for the amount of people hulk had to go through in just five books and that's not counting the other thing that occured in the issue's.I dont see them being able to show all of the fights or do them justice in just five issue's the avenger's warbound fight in my view was portrayed badly.Cage was taken out at the start that mean's hiriom probably the most powerful warbound is free to help korg with wonderman elleo with spiderman who ever need's it and doc sampson he is gonna last all of two second's against the hulk.The warbound take's the fight but it would not be as easy as it was made to look and it would not be over in one or two panel's.

[Dark Soul # 7]

So if he wanted to hit them just for illegally shooting him into space, that wouldn't be okay? They did actually engage in kidnapping.No, that would be ok.

But that isn't what he's focusing on blaming them for now is it? He's mostly blaming them for killing a world where he was happy, and he has no evidence of that.

[Kevinroc]

No, that would be ok.

But that isn't what he's focusing on blaming them for now is it? He's mostly blaming them for killing a world where he was happy, and he has no evidence of that.

So just to make sure I have this straight, if his only beef was that they shot him into space, you would have absolutely no problem with how Hulk is punishing them?

[Dark Soul # 7]

So just to make sure I have this straight, if his only beef was that they shot him into space, you would have absolutely no problem with how Hulk is punishing them?Oh no, he's gone way too far.

Just beating them all up and then saying something that puts him above them morally would be enough. For what he's doing now he needs to be taken down.

[Kevinroc]

Oh no, he's gone way too far.

Just beating them all up and then saying something that puts him above them morally would be enough. For what he's doing now he needs to be taken down.

How would you compare what Hulk is doing now to what Stark did during Civil War?

[Dark Soul # 7]

How would you compare what Hulk is doing now to what Stark did during Civil War?I've actually thought about this abit.

What Stark did he didn't do for his own good. He was trying to protect the superhero community, his friends, from worse things like an undending army of sentinels throwing them into jail. At the same time he also tried to make the public trust heroes again. Granted he went too far on several occasions, Clor, using villains to beef up his own side's strength. His intentions were good and he didn't want most of the bad stuff that happened. It doesn't absolve him of his guilt but it does give him a rather valid explination for what he did, except for Clor. Stark thought he was doing the best thing for all of mankind.

With Hulk it looked like he was going to seek justice for what happened to his new home. Instead it's more that he's looking for revenge for what happened to him personally. It's understandable that he's angry, often that's all that he is. But he's using the explosion as an excuse to seemingly kill the Illuminati and all who stand with them. He isn't doing any of this because it's right or wrong. He's doing this all out of spite. He has no evidence for that the explosion was caused by the Illuminati and if was only blaming them for sending him into space he started going too far like two issue ago. Hulk isn't trying to help anyone, he's doing it all for himself.

In the end I see Hulk as a bigger villain than Tony.

[WarHulk]

http://www.hulkmovie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5817
looks like he did in fact stop him

[Archmage]

I've actually thought about this abit.

What Stark did he didn't do for his own good. He was trying to protect the superhero community, his friends, from worse things like an undending army of sentinels throwing them into jail. At the same time he also tried to make the public trust heroes again. Granted he went too far on several occasions, Clor, using villains to beef up his own side's strength. His intentions were good and he didn't want most of the bad stuff that happened. It doesn't absolve him of his guilt but it does give him a rather valid explination for what he did, except for Clor. Stark thought he was doing the best thing for all of mankind.

With Hulk it looked like he was going to seek justice for what happened to his new home. Instead it's more that he's looking for revenge for what happened to him personally. It's understandable that he's angry, often that's all that he is. But he's using the explosion as an excuse to seemingly kill the Illuminati and all who stand with them. He isn't doing any of this because it's right or wrong. He's doing this all out of spite. He has no evidence for that the explosion was caused by the Illuminati and if was only blaming them for sending him into space he started going too far like two issue ago. Hulk isn't trying to help anyone, he's doing it all for himself.

In the end I see Hulk as a bigger villain than Tony.


Just because Tony thinks what he is doing is right, makes it right?
The ends never justify the means, ever. I don't care if Tony had the approval of God on his side, if he decides to accomplish his "honorable" ends through "dishonorable" means, it is still dishonorable.

[XPac]

I've actually thought about this abit.

What Stark did he didn't do for his own good. He was trying to protect the superhero community, his friends, from worse things like an undending army of sentinels throwing them into jail. At the same time he also tried to make the public trust heroes again. Granted he went too far on several occasions, Clor, using villains to beef up his own side's strength. His intentions were good and he didn't want most of the bad stuff that happened. It doesn't absolve him of his guilt but it does give him a rather valid explination for what he did, except for Clor. Stark thought he was doing the best thing for all of mankind.

With Hulk it looked like he was going to seek justice for what happened to his new home. Instead it's more that he's looking for revenge for what happened to him personally. It's understandable that he's angry, often that's all that he is. But he's using the explosion as an excuse to seemingly kill the Illuminati and all who stand with them. He isn't doing any of this because it's right or wrong. He's doing this all out of spite. He has no evidence for that the explosion was caused by the Illuminati and if was only blaming them for sending him into space he started going too far like two issue ago. Hulk isn't trying to help anyone, he's doing it all for himself.

In the end I see Hulk as a bigger villain than Tony.

You don't think the fact that the rocket they sent him in is what exploded counts as evidence that they are responsible for the rocket exploding? I'd argue that the rocket itself qualifies as a smoking gun.

Is there evidence that someone OTHER than the Illuminati are responsible? I'm not saying they did it intentionally (unless one of them are skrulls). Either it was unintentional or someone else was involved... but if nothing thus far points to that, then I'd say the Illuminati are the obvious suspects.

And again, even if a third party is involved, I'd still argue they are accountable for what happened because they're the ones that sent the rocket and Hulk out there to begin with. They can't just launch it and Hulk into space and wash their hands of it... they had a responsibility to make sure nothing went wrong since this was their idea in the first place. There is a system in place (however flawed) to deal with superhumans that do things illegally... IF the Illuminati decide to operate outside of that system, what happens if their responsibility.

[seekquaze]

As we have been told in just about every issue this Hulk is supposed to be the "angriest as ever been." So far his physical strength has failed to live up to expectations. Thankfully though he has his uber healing factor that might even be stronger than Wolverine's to allow him to walk through his opponents.

Wasn't the Hulk suppose to employ some strategy? What strategizing has he exactly done with the exception of crushing Dr. Strange's hands? He simply challenges every one to a fight, heals from what ever damage they do to him, claims to be so tough when he is just healing in about two seconds no matter what damage they do to him, and then outlasts his enemies while they are sometimes dumbed down.

Which gets me to the Sentry. What is the Sentry going to do to the Hulk? Hit him hard. Yeah, that worked real well for Black Bolt, Iron Man, The Thing, Juggernaut, and Dr. Strange. The way the Hulk's healing factor has been pumped up even if the Sentry raises his strength to ten times the Hulk's current level and shatters ever bone in his body it won't matter because one panel later the Hulk will be fully healed.

Maybe the Sentry will use some of these vast psionic and energy powers we keep hearing about, but never see. I don't really see the golden glow working because no doubt the hulk will be "so angry" it doesn't work. Energy blasts did not work so well for the X-Men or Dr. Strange since the Hulk instead of out thinking or overpowering his enemies simply heals from any damage done.

What about his mental powers? The Hulk has become pretty much immune to telepathy and I am sure if the Sentry tried telekinesis despite being physically powerful enough to withstand a handclap the Hulk evolve to walk on air or something to overcome it.

That means sooner or later ol' Robert will have to call upon even more power. From what I understand if he calls upon too much his risk releasing the Void. However, he has demonstrated at least once before he can control the Void and access its powers in limited amounts. This part is where things might get interesting.

The Void has the ability to cause fear in his enemies or something like that. Of course no doubt the Hulk will just get "angrier" to overcome it or heal from it. That leaves some other options.

For one, The Void typically forms a body out of hard-light or something. Anyway he is not physical the same way Sentry is. That means the Sentry could be someplace away and have the Void fight the Hulk. The good thing about this is unless the Hulk evolves some new ability it does not matter how angry or strong the Hulk gets he cannot hurt the Void. Theoretically, as long as the Sentry's energy supply holds out he should just be able to constantly reform the Void. The Hulk can find the annoyance of fighting someone that simply heals from whatever damage you do no matter how hard you hit them.

The Void also is more likely to use the Sentry's other powers in ways the Sentry probable wouldn't. This includes telekinesis attacks inside the Hulk's own body, mind control, energy blasts powerful enough to flay the Hulk's skin off, illusions, etc.

Of course, the whole question is can the Sentry keep control of the void without it turning into another Sentry vs. void and Hulk saves the day by defeating them both.

Of course, maybe the Sentry can project a type of radiation that nullifies the Hulks healing factor?

Somehow I think a fight between Hulk and Sentry would go something like this:

Sentry saves Stark and tries to reason with the Hulk using his golden glow. The Hulk proves immune and punches the Sentry. They trade a few blows. The Sentry using that Reed-richards IQ he is supposed to have quickly realizes this is pointless since the Hulk just heals from any damage done to him and the Sentry himself is pretty much immune to the Hulk's blows thanks to his invulnerability and ability to power-up.

The Sentry calls upon the void for the additional power since the two are evenly matched physically. The Void either forms its own body to fight the Hulk and it doesn't matter if the Hulk succeeds in putting his fist through the Void the latter simply heals. The Hulk gets annoyed and maybe a bit angrier because his fists can't do squat.

He turns his attention to the Sentry yet is unable to get close to him because the Sentry extends tendrils form his own body that begins to weaken the Hulk due to their touch and breaks every bone in the hulk's body.. At this point the thanks again to his healing factor he is back up in a second.

By this point the Sentry/Void has had enough and boosts his power even more to simply ko the Hulk with one blow reverting him back to Banner.

End of fight.

Thoughts on anything in this?

[CapnCaveman]

That sounds good, but it is too Sentry-focused. I think the story will be Hulk-focused and will end with the Hulk realizing he has to let this go. He may be defeated physically by the Sentry, but what will stop his rampage is him deciding to stop. At least that's what I think right now. We'll know for sure in a month.

[philly]

Gut feeling tells me that Rick Jones is going to die and Hulk will beat the Sentry but it will some how cost him.

[Superbeast]

If they job Jadejaws to Bob at this point, not only will it make the majority of the Marvel universe heroes look pathetic, it will be just another character lost to prove a point that New Marvel stomps on the old school. We've already lost Sabretooth, Cap and Black Goliath this year, Hulk taking the loss to Bob after all he's went through so far to finally be a champion of his people would be a bitter end to what was a great story (Planet Hulk, WWH: X-Men, WWH 1 & 2) initially.

[StoneGold]

If they job Jadejaws to Bob at this point, not only will it make the majority of the Marvel universe heroes look pathetic, it will be just another character lost to prove a point that New Marvel stomps on the old school. We've already lost Sabretooth, Cap and Black Goliath this year, Hulk taking the loss to Bob after all he's went through so far to finally be a champion of his people would be a bitter end to what was a great story (Planet Hulk, WWH: X-Men, WWH 1 & 2) initially.

Question: how would Sentry beating Hulk make the heroes look pathetic? Wouldn't Hulk beating them make them look pathetic? Sentry has been set up as a cosmic-level character. Would it be pathetic if the Silver Surfer showed up and drained Hulk of his gamma radiation? OK, it wouldn't be the most fun story, but is there any real difference, other than Norrin having a couple decades worth of existence on Sentry?

[Lord Moon]

You don't think the fact that the rocket they sent him in is what exploded counts as evidence that they are responsible for the rocket exploding? I'd argue that the rocket itself qualifies as a smoking gun.

Is there evidence that someone OTHER than the Illuminati are responsible? I'm not saying they did it intentionally (unless one of them are skrulls). Either it was unintentional or someone else was involved... but if nothing thus far points to that, then I'd say the Illuminati are the obvious suspects.

And again, even if a third party is involved, I'd still argue they are accountable for what happened because they're the ones that sent the rocket and Hulk out there to begin with. They can't just launch it and Hulk into space and wash their hands of it... they had a responsibility to make sure nothing went wrong since this was their idea in the first place. There is a system in place (however flawed) to deal with superhumans that do things illegally... IF the Illuminati decide to operate outside of that system, what happens if their responsibility.

Especially as "heroes" like Wolverine have killed far more people. The banishment of the Hulk is an allegory for Government's (all governments') fear of the uncontrollable. It doesn't matter whether the Hulk has or hasn't caused huge swathes of destruction, it's his unpredictability that's a threat. And the reason he was thrown off planet was nothing more than the knowledge that he might not agree to the new world order Tony Stark was envisaging. Psychopaths such as Bullseye etc would fit in but the Hulk has integrity that has nothing to do with country or government, just to himself and those he considers his friends. That's scary for any authoritarian government.

[Shai Hulud]

the only acceptable defeat from Hulk I will endorse, is if Sentry throws him into the sun...And he comes back later after WWH, stronger because of the radiations of the Sun...

[Thursaiz]

I hope that something actually HAPPENS in this series. So far, we've had a year of buildup about the Hulk coming back to extract revenge. What has actually happened? He put a few people in a gladiator arena. Wow. Especially since published facts about the aftermath show that everyone involved in the 'revenge' angle is fine, and it just rolls on to the Skrull story.

If Sentry shows up and simply beats up the Hulk in one way or another, it will be a boring end to a boring series. I loved 'Planet Hulk', but this is really, really lame.

I also absolutely hate the fact that Thor was teased as an opponent back on Hulk's ship with Korg. Then nothing. If that turns into a one-issue 'Warbound' fight, it will suck.

[philly]

Question: how would Sentry beating Hulk make the heroes look pathetic? Wouldn't Hulk beating them make them look pathetic? Sentry has been set up as a cosmic-level character. Would it be pathetic if the Silver Surfer showed up and drained Hulk of his gamma radiation? OK, it wouldn't be the most fun story, but is there any real difference, other than Norrin having a couple decades worth of existence on Sentry?

The Hulk has gone toe to toe with the Silver Surfer and has fought him to a stand still. To have him lose to the Sentry would be Joe Q trying to sell this new character as the superman of marvel which is a shame because in my opinion, the Sentry is the worse character to come out of marvel in the last few years.

World War Hulk should end with the HulK Beating The Sentry, proving that he is the strongest one there is and realising that his methods in dealing with the Illuminate was wrong and for him to walk away.

[Adamantium_Avatar]

Enough with the bloody void already!

Not every Sentry story has to end with the Void... :evilangry

Sentry must the only damn character that everyone wants his arch-nemesis to put in an appearance every other fortnight!

Ok, so he IS the Void, it doesn't mean we have to continually dwell on the fact.

Maybe, just maybe, Sentry will hand Hulk's green butt to him without going all scary!


Perhaps if everyone stopped comparing Sentry to Superman in every post he is mentioned we might get a chance to discover he is a complex and very human character...

[Clea]

Gut feeling tells me that Rick Jones is going to die and Hulk will beat the Sentry but it will some how cost him.

Gosh, I hope not. I like Rick Jones.

[Shyft]

The Hulk has gone toe to toe with the Silver Surfer and has fought him to a stand still. To have him lose to the Sentry would be Joe Q trying to sell this new character as the superman of marvel which is a shame because in my opinion, the Sentry is the worse character to come out of marvel in the last few years.

World War Hulk should end with the HulK Beating The Sentry, proving that he is the strongest one there is and realising that his methods in dealing with the Illuminate was wrong and for him to walk away.

So what. Everyone has beaten everyone else/ fought them to a standstill before. It means nothing. Based on the book the fight appears in, the story Marvel want to tell, and the aftermath on the MU of the fight, any character could beat any other character. There is always a way. If the Sentry beats the Hulk, it will be no different. The only reason you are trying to make out it is different is because you don't like the Sentry.

[seekquaze]

You don't think the fact that the rocket they sent him in is what exploded counts as evidence that they are responsible for the rocket exploding? I'd argue that the rocket itself qualifies as a smoking gun.

Is there evidence that someone OTHER than the Illuminati are responsible? I'm not saying they did it intentionally (unless one of them are skrulls). Either it was unintentional or someone else was involved... but if nothing thus far points to that, then I'd say the Illuminati are the obvious suspects.

And again, even if a third party is involved, I'd still argue they are accountable for what happened because they're the ones that sent the rocket and Hulk out there to begin with. They can't just launch it and Hulk into space and wash their hands of it... they had a responsibility to make sure nothing went wrong since this was their idea in the first place. There is a system in place (however flawed) to deal with superhumans that do things illegally... IF the Illuminati decide to operate outside of that system, what happens if their responsibility.

There is evidence that Miek and the Brood might have done something to the ship. Both of them wanted the Hulk to continue smashing and didn't like living in peace. They tried to goad the Hulk into attacking Earth. I think they also were seen sneaking around the ship. That and their known hatred of humans. Also given their lack of technological knowledge they could have rigged the ship to blow and now known the magnitude of the explosion.

Compound that with the fact the Hulk threw the ship around and damaged it. No telling of that had an effect.

Then there are the theories that the Red King messed with it or it was a Skrull.
Finally consider that the Illuminati are not mass murderers and would know a weapon like that would not kill the Hulk.
So there is plenty of evidence to suggest they didn't rig it to blow. The Hulk just didn't bother to investigate any other possibility.

And while they may have partial responsibility for what happened if it was third party sabotage I would say at least seventy percent of the blame if not more rest on that third party. Especially if the ship was designed to not explode.

[K Von Doom]

I don't think it's just the government that fears the uncontrollable, I know if the Hulk started trashing my city for no reason other than someone looked at him funny, I'd vote for him to be shot off into space.

[aut0matic]

IMO, it would be out of character for the hulk to lose to anyone in a straight up fight. the only loss i would deem acceptable for the hulk is if other tactics such as magic, teleportation maybe? or some seriously superior battlefield tactics (if we're talking about the raging green retard hulk) or a cheap technological device that drains his gamma energy or some ultimate nullifier thing reed richards pulls out his ass. so it goes without saying i would be extremely disappointed if hulk is defeated by the sentry simply beating him into submission with sheer force.. that's hulk's thing

[Kefky]

I really, really, REALLY wanna see these two powerhouses go all out and just break everything. We're never gonna get another chance to see the Sentry use something close to his full potential again. So in that sense, it's a good thing.

But eh, I just don't see how Pak can give us a great fight AND good story closure in just one issue. So I imagine this won't be a basic fight at all.

[ivesaidway2much]

I really, really, REALLY wanna see these two powerhouses go all out and just break everything. We're never gonna get another chance to see the Sentry use something close to his full potential again. So in that sense, it's a good thing.

But eh, I just don't see how Pak can give us a great fight AND good story closure in just one issue. So I imagine this won't be a basic fight at all.WWH #5 is 56 pages long. And there are only three story elements left. The Sentry/Hulk fight, whatever happened with the ship, and the end. Even if the issue is heavily weghted in favor of the plot, that still leaves about 10 pages worth of a Hulk vs. Sentry slugfest.

[Spiffy]

Gut feeling tells me that Rick Jones is going to die and Hulk will beat the Sentry but it will some how cost him.
Rick being present at the arena certainly makes that seem a lot more likely, eh?

And it has to be Hulk's fault.

Really, we could have written this story on a restaurant napkin so far. I want something unpredictable. We all predicted the Sentry/Hulk fight a while back, and I think many of us are expecting someone important to Hulk to die so he changes his mind and guilt overcomes his anger.

[K Von Doom]

We're never gonna get another chance to see the Sentry use something close to his full potential again


Some future crossover where Thor goes mad again, or Silver Surfer comes for Earth (he's Galactus' herald again right?) or Thanos comes back to life... etc

[XPac]

Some future crossover where Thor goes mad again, or Silver Surfer comes for Earth (he's Galactus' herald again right?) or Thanos comes back to life... etc

While I agree that there will be other opportunities for Sentry to cut lose, this one will have more personal elements than the rest because of the relationship they had in the past.

Plus, its Sentry battling someone that has cut through the entire MU community like a knife through hot butter. So stopping Hulk here (if he can do it) is a win that may have more build up than the others.

[DaeJi]

While I agree that there will be other opportunities for Sentry to cut lose, this one will have more personal elements than the rest because of the relationship they had in the past.

Plus, its Sentry battling someone that has cut through the entire MU community like a knife through hot butter. So stopping Hulk here (if he can do it) is a win that may have more build up than the others.

*shudders* God I hate the tacked on history for the Sentry. It was fine and dandy when it was just a out of continuity mini, but now...

Anyway, I don't think the Sentry will win. I think something will happen and the Hulk will discover is wasn't the Illumnati who blew up the ship, but Miek. He then kills Miek, everyone realizes that everyone is a jackass, the Hulk leaves, the Illumnati realize that as bad as the Hulk is, they... well, they're still better than him, but not by enough. And in the end, we the readers learn... nothing, basically. We look forward to Annihilation: Conquest, Brand New Day, Messiah CompleX, and Secret War and call it a day.

[CBikle]

I really, really, REALLY wanna see these two powerhouses go all out and just break everything. We're never gonna get another chance to see the Sentry use something close to his full potential again. So in that sense, it's a good thing.


Sounds like this book:

http://www.treasurycomics.com/images/gallery/other/destroy.gif

[XPac]

*shudders* God I hate the tacked on history for the Sentry. It was fine and dandy when it was just a out of continuity mini, but now...

Anyway, I don't think the Sentry will win. I think something will happen and the Hulk will discover is wasn't the Illumnati who blew up the ship, but Miek. He then kills Miek, everyone realizes that everyone is a jackass, the Hulk leaves, the Illumnati realize that as bad as the Hulk is, they... well, they're still better than him, but not by enough. And in the end, we the readers learn... nothing, basically. We look forward to Annihilation: Conquest, Brand New Day, Messiah CompleX, and Secret War and call it a day.

I'm not sure I can agree that the Illuminati were better than Hulk simply because I think Hulk has to be judged on a different standard.

Hulk is a gamma radiated person... it's even proven in a court of law that gamma radiated beings aren't completely accountable for their actions. And Hulk is more mentally fractured than most. So he's got an excuse for any excessive behavior. Illuminati members have no such excuse, barring anything skrully.

[DaeJi]

I'm not sure I can agree that the Illuminati were better than Hulk simply because I think Hulk has to be judged on a different standard.

Hulk is a gamma radiated person... it's even proven in a court of law that gamma radiated beings aren't completely accountable for their actions. And Hulk is more mentally fractured than most. So he's got an excuse for any excessive behavior. Illuminati members have no such excuse, barring anything skrully.

I was actually making a reference to a show there, a cartoon show to be more specific. And really, in a world where man can disregard the law and hop a fence to pet a tiger, only to sue the tiger's owners after his lost his arm to said tiger, and win, I don't put much stock into court rulings.

[XPac]

I was actually making a reference to a show there, a cartoon show to be more specific. And really, in a world where man can disregard the law and hop a fence to pet a tiger, only to sue the tiger's owners after his lost his arm to said tiger, and win, I don't put much stock into court rulings.

Then you disagree with the court ruling that Bruce Banner's behavior and mental state was effected after becoming the Hulk? Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[DaeJi]

Then you disagree with the court ruling that Bruce Banner's behavior and mental state was effected after becoming the Hulk? Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Hey, just because a highly dangerous person has a reason doesn't mean we should treat him with kid gloves.

[XPac]

Hey, just because a highly dangerous person has a reason doesn't mean we should treat him with kid gloves.

I'm not saying that he should be treated with kid gloves ... what I am saying is that I don't think he can be completely held accountable for his actions from a legal or ethical standpoint. So I would judge him by a different standard.

[DaeJi]

I'm not saying that he should be treated with kid gloves ... what I am saying is that I don't think he can be completely held accountable for his actions from a legal or ethical standpoint. So I would judge him by a different standard.

The Hulk's dangerous (or was). Regardless of the reasons why, you can't just have him running around unchecked threating people because he may not be completely responsible for his actions.

[XPac]

The Hulk's dangerous (or was). Regardless of the reasons why, you can't just have him running around unchecked threating people because he may not be completely responsible for his actions.

Again, I'm not necessarily saying they should let him run around unchecked. I'm merely disagreeing with your notion that the Illuminati are better than him.

[DaeJi]

Again, I'm not necessarily saying they should let him run around unchecked. I'm merely disagreeing with your notion that the Illuminati are better than him.

.....That was a joke, a joke I've already explained. *sigh* In the show Futurama (great show), Lrrr, ruler of Omicon Persei VIII!!!, wondered if his mutilating a character on the show for his own benefit made him any better than a park ranger who wanted to kidnap Bigfoot and cut of his feet. He decided that he was still better, but "not by enough."

And for better or worse, the Illumnati don't do what they do for themselves, but for the betterment of everyone else. Now there is a bit of ego there, thinking they know what's best, but they do have good intentions. The Hulk... changes from arch to arch, or in some cases issue to issue.

[XPac]

.....That was a joke, a joke I've already explained. *sigh* In the show Futurama (great show), Lrrr, ruler of Omicon Persei VIII!!!, wondered if his mutilating a character on the show for his own benefit made him any better than a park ranger who wanted to kidnap Bigfoot and cut of his feet. He decided that he was still better, but "not by enough."

And for better or worse, the Illumnati don't do what they do for themselves, but for the betterment of everyone else. Now there is a bit of ego there, thinking they know what's best, but they do have good intentions. The Hulk... changes from arch to arch, or in some cases issue to issue.


You did explain you got the line from a show... what you did not explain was whether or not you believed the statement to be true or not. So I assumed you meant what you said, and treated the conversation accordingly. If that's an incorrect assumption on my part, my bad.

As for the Illuminati... I am not arguing their intentions aren't good. Which is why I've never really labelled them villians. It's just that I don't apply that label to Hulk either. He's a guy that lost his wife, his son, and his people. And he's seeking justice against a group of people that otherwise will get off scott free for what they did to him.

[Van Custo]

Some future crossover where Thor goes mad again, or Silver Surfer comes for Earth (he's Galactus' herald again right?) or Thanos comes back to life... etc

Or the Sentry himself goes mad........

[Lord Moon]

I don't think it's just the government that fears the uncontrollable, I know if the Hulk started trashing my city for no reason other than someone looked at him funny, I'd vote for him to be shot off into space.

You may have a point there.

[3D Master]

Enough with the bloody void already!

Not every Sentry story has to end with the Void... :evilangry

Sentry must the only damn character that everyone wants his arch-nemesis to put in an appearance every other fortnight!

Ok, so he IS the Void, it doesn't mean we have to continually dwell on the fact.

No, Sentry is NOT the Void, not anymore. The split apart to become two entirely different entities and then Sentry dumped Void into the sun.

[seekquaze]

No, Sentry is NOT the Void, not anymore. The split apart to become two entirely different entities and then Sentry dumped Void into the sun.

They spit for a while, but in a New Avengers story set after that the Sentry called upon a limited amount of the Void to defeat the Super-Adaptoid. One reason given for the Sentry not to plow through any threat is if he draw upon too much power not only does he begin to loose control but he risks unleashing the Void. He can control the Void in limited amounts, but too much energy risks setting it free and since the Sentry is the "good" in Robert Reynolds he doesn't want to risk that combined with his other mental problems.

[Superbeast]

Question: how would Sentry beating Hulk make the heroes look pathetic? Wouldn't Hulk beating them make them look pathetic? Sentry has been set up as a cosmic-level character. Would it be pathetic if the Silver Surfer showed up and drained Hulk of his gamma radiation? OK, it wouldn't be the most fun story, but is there any real difference, other than Norrin having a couple decades worth of existence on Sentry?

If the entire MU has to turn to an unstable guy like Bob where all others have failed, I don't think it says much about how useful they are if Sentry is the only real big gun on Earth.

[Kefky]

If the entire MU has to turn to an unstable guy like Bob where all others have failed, I don't think it says much about how useful they are if Sentry is the only real big gun on Earth.

If you're only talking about Earth, it's always kinda been like that, which is why they have to rely on people like Thor, the Surfer, and of course, the Hulk.

Universe-wise, there's obviously more powerful people.

[Hulk Strongest One]

I also absolutely hate the fact that Thor was teased as an opponent back on Hulk's ship with Korg. Then nothing. If that turns into a one-issue 'Warbound' fight, it will suck.

The only one of the Warbound who would last two seconds against Thor is Hiroim, who has the Oldstrong powers as well as being their primary priest/wizard thingie. Is that sword he blocked Zom-Strange's blows with an artifact, or just a really high quality sword? :)

Of course, little is known about those powers at this time. He could be a major player (if in the background like Herculese is), or he could turn into a Dr. Druid reject clone.



World War Hulk should end with the HulK Beating The Sentry

I agree. Pull out the Void, too while they're at it. If Hulk can beat down a Zom-infused Strange (and on retrospect, Juggy got off light with just a dented helmet and ego), then Sentry and the Void should not be unreasonable.

How about this for an ending: Hulk beats Sentry and the Void, makes a speech that he's taught everybody a lesson, and leaves, telling them Manhattan will remain his territory as a reminder?

I'd rather see that than some Sentry victory, which ain't gonna happen, let's face it.

[trickster]

and the Hulk will discover is wasn't the Illumnati who blew up the ship, but Miek. He then kills Miek
Why is everyone throwing this around? Do you know something we don't? And what would the guy win from that?

[3D Master]

They spit for a while, but in a New Avengers story set after that the Sentry called upon a limited amount of the Void to defeat the Super-Adaptoid. One reason given for the Sentry not to plow through any threat is if he draw upon too much power not only does he begin to loose control but he risks unleashing the Void. He can control the Void in limited amounts, but too much energy risks setting it free and since the Sentry is the "good" in Robert Reynolds he doesn't want to risk that combined with his other mental problems.

No. The Adaptoid took on all the powers of the people he came up against. Since the Void is as much a construct of the same powers that made the Sentry the Sentry, the Adaptoid would ALSO create a Void, and since it could not harness this Void, and this Void would be the anti-thesis of the Adaptoid that created Void helped defeat the Adaptoid.

Never did the Sentry access or do anything with THE Void.

[Superbeast]

If you're only talking about Earth, it's always kinda been like that, which is why they have to rely on people like Thor, the Surfer, and of course, the Hulk.

Universe-wise, there's obviously more powerful people.

I just think it's a copout if Earth's mightiest heroes are useless without Sentry as a last resort. I'd actually prefer someone from space to fly in and intervene, Surfer swooped in against Cable when he posed a serious threat.

You also have to wonder why the Inhumans didn't chase after BB after Hulk beat him down and kidnapped him. I know they wouldn't have made a great difference against the Hulk but Gorgon and Karnak would have helped against the Warbound.

[Shyft]

I just think it's a copout if Earth's mightiest heroes are useless without Sentry as a last resort. I'd actually prefer someone from space to fly in and intervene, Surfer swooped in against Cable when he posed a serious threat.

You also have to wonder why the Inhumans didn't chase after BB after Hulk beat him down and kidnapped him. I know they wouldn't have made a great difference against the Hulk but Gorgon and Karnak would have helped against the Warbound.

They arent useless without him as a Last Resort, they have got loads of stuff done without it ending with him doing all the work. and you never know, he may lose. Why is it better to have a cosmic character "suddenly" turn up to save the day rather than a character who is actually around to see whats going on?

And regarding Hulk/BB, the fight more or less happened off panel, so maybe Hulk also kicked the crap out of all/most of the inhumans to?

[DaeJi]

Why is everyone throwing this around? Do you know something we don't? And what would the guy win from that?

Nothing. Everyone loses and they all feel bad. Cure CD sells skyrocket.

[Superbeast]

They arent useless without him as a Last Resort, they have got loads of stuff done without it ending with him doing all the work. and you never know, he may lose. Why is it better to have a cosmic character "suddenly" turn up to save the day rather than a character who is actually around to see whats going on?

And regarding Hulk/BB, the fight more or less happened off panel, so maybe Hulk also kicked the crap out of all/most of the inhumans to?

I am a fairly old school fan and hate retcons. Bob pisses me off. I can do with retcons that make sense, but the way they implemented him in continuity and crowbarred him into the MU annoys me.

Sentry is undependable at his base. Especially these days. Hulk is a united cohesive machine of hate. The duo should beat the schizo for me.

We really need to get that BB/Hulk fight sometime, seriously. That should be some wild hardcore fight.

[zhivago]

I fear the whole reason of WWH was, besides boosting sales, to put Sentry in the collective mind of comic book readers as a big time player and not as as retcon character they have been trying to implement in marvel history for some time now. I mean lines like Bob and Hulk are friends!!!?? When did that happen?
The entire Marvel comic history is now officially What if? Sentry never existed issue. I hope Hulk obliterates him.

[Shyft]

I fear the whole reason of WWH was, besides boosting sales, to put Sentry in the collective mind of comic book readers as a big time player and not as as retcon character they have been trying to implement in marvel history for some time now. I mean lines like Bob and Hulk are friends!!!?? When did that happen?
The entire Marvel comic history is now officially What if? Sentry never existed issue. I hope Hulk obliterates him.

people have been saying that about like, every appearance the Sentry has ever made. Is it possible that Marvel just want to USE the character?

[zhivago]

I am not saying Sentry is a good or bad character, but we have a story where Hulk basically wipes all the big guns of the Marvel U and they been building this Hulk-Sentry hype since issue one. He is becoming something of a Deus EX machina. Compare his appearances and "power ranking" in Civil War and WWH. Why did they even have pro reg army? They could have simply sent Sentry to take out Cap & Co.. I mean Reed Richard, Black Bolt, Stark and Sorcerer Supreme couldn't take the guy but we have mentally instable boy scout of the marvel universe who according to marvel editors and writers shares a history with Hulk.

[Shyft]

I am not saying Sentry is a good or bad character, but we have a story where Hulk basically wipes all the big guns of the Marvel U and they been building this Hulk-Sentry hype since issue one. He is becoming something of a Deus EX machina. Compare his appearances and "power ranking" in Civil War and WWH. Why did they even have pro reg army? They could have simply sent Sentry to take out Cap & Co.. I mean Reed Richard, Black Bolt, Stark and Sorcerer Supreme couldn't take the guy but we have mentally instable boy scout of the marvel universe who according to marvel editors and writers shares a history with Hulk.

Whereas if it hadn't been Sentry, it would have been someone else. So whats your point, that you don't like the character? that hes too new for his important role?

Characters are retconned every day to have relationships with other characters. Heck the whole Young Avengers cast is basically one big Sentry-style retcon. And yet no-one complains about that. If it wasnt Sentry, it would be Thor. Or Silver Surfer. The Sentry exists,is around, is a more viable option than Thor or Surfer, so why not use him.

[zhivago]

Thor - Hulk? Now that is a good idea. All, I'm saying I can't just get used to the idea that this Sentry, coming out of nowhere, simply owerpowers Hulk, Dr. Strange and company and what is even more iritating shares a long, mutul history with almost every character in the MU.

[DaeJi]

Whereas if it hadn't been Sentry, it would have been someone else. So whats your point, that you don't like the character? that hes too new for his important role?

Characters are retconned every day to have relationships with other characters. Heck the whole Young Avengers cast is basically one big Sentry-style retcon. And yet no-one complains about that. If it wasnt Sentry, it would be Thor. Or Silver Surfer. The Sentry exists,is around, is a more viable option than Thor or Surfer, so why not use him.

The difference is that the Sentry was retroactively inserted into Marvel history as always being there but everyone just forgot, basically saying that 40+ years of Marvel history is inaccurate. The Young Avengers were built off of other characters' histories, and are a result of past actions, but do not alter the past in any big way.

[Xanrn]

Nor does the Sentry.

The Sentry's history was written, he wasn't written into other people's history.

40 Years of history inaccurate don't be so melodramatic.

Show me one story from before the Sentry where he is now in it.

Come on show me one story from before the Sentry that has been contradicted by the Sentry.

There is none, so you can't.

Show me one tiny piece of pre-Sentry history that has been changed by the Sentry.

[Shyft]

The difference is that the Sentry was retroactively inserted into Marvel history as always being there but everyone just forgot, basically saying that 40+ years of Marvel history is inaccurate. The Young Avengers were built off of other characters' histories, and are a result of past actions, but do not alter the past in any big way.

The Sentry's history doesnt alter the past either. There arent any Marvel stories that were actually released, Kree-Skrull war, the Kang Empire, arrival of the Silver Surfer, The Clone Saga, Ultron - none of these or any others have been changed in response to the Sentry's existance. All that has been added is some of his OWN stories, and the fact that people knew him. But now they dont, and his own stories have been de facto removed from continuity, seeing as no-one, not even he, remembers them.

So other than the fact that a few characters like Mar-Vell and Hulk remember him, next to nothing from Marvel history has changed since the Sentry's inception.

And hes better than Phyla.

[jugernaut]

Personally I do not think there is room for both Thor and Sentry, so if removing the latter, this would be fine time. This would make a good point for the S vs H match.

Why would Marvel put their money on a Superman-copy to be their big gun? The biggest hero from the competition. Superman should be the last one they try to copy, if they have not decided to lose their image and just earn money.

When introduced, Hulk was supposed to be stronger than Superman so let him kick Sentry around a bit. Sentry has a lot of different powers at an immense level so he is clearly as capable as the Silver Surfer is at defeating the Hulk. I think, however, that his character is to weak and that the way he has been, as it was elegantly stated earlier in this thread, "crowbarred" into MU is just not good enough.

As for the Hulk, we know from Gamma files under "She-Hulk" that he is going to lose. What we do not know is how. So, If defeated means getting his butt handled to him/or being killed by the Sentry, in his own magazine, I guess Marvel is eager to get rid of a large quantity of their old readers? If they would like to give him a rest like with Thor, just stop the comicbook.

I am a bit disapointed with Hulks current strength level. I actually expected him to be markably stronger than the war persona. Luckilly he is not and Juggy was able to make a nice impression;). I was waiting for the "Strongest there is" to be manifested once and for all, but it will obviously never be confirmed. I am still alowed to believe that Jugernaut is:). The increased anger seems to be manifested by, as previously pointed out, faster healingfactor and a little bit more ruthlessness. No things older versions could not do in terms of strength. However, having Banners intellect combined with "increased strength" I am not expecting him to lose to Sentry. That would maybe just show how great the Sentry is and not undermine marvels old works at all, but I do not like how it would look compared to any previous feature by Hulk/Banner and indirectly other characters that has been involved. Hulk has come so far, he really needs to conquer himself, lame and boring as it may be.

Hulk should walk through everybody, prove that there are other monsters out there as well, say take a look at yourself and then just walk away (romantic as it may be). Give Hulk the victory. Let him finally beat an upper class 100 for once. Let him have some credit to finally do this. But that would actually surprise me

[WarHulk]

The Hulk will smash Sentry( the power of a million lightbulbs):evilangry

[XPac]

Personally I do not think there is room for both Thor and Sentry, so if removing the latter, this would be fine time. This would make a good point for the S vs H match.



I don't why there can't be room for both. DC is filled with Superman clones.

Having 2 big guns flying around is no big deal.

[DaeJi]

The Sentry's history doesnt alter the past either. There arent any Marvel stories that were actually released, Kree-Skrull war, the Kang Empire, arrival of the Silver Surfer, The Clone Saga, Ultron - none of these or any others have been changed in response to the Sentry's existance. All that has been added is some of his OWN stories, and the fact that people knew him. But now they dont, and his own stories have been de facto removed from continuity, seeing as no-one, not even he, remembers them.

So other than the fact that a few characters like Mar-Vell and Hulk remember him, next to nothing from Marvel history has changed since the Sentry's inception.

And hes better than Phyla.

I didn't say that the stories didn't happen, just that now with the Sentry retcon they didn't take place as people remember them. True, just applies only to the character's memories and not the reader's memories, but still gets under the skin of people. Where as the Young Avengers had no effect on Marvel's history until they actually showed up.

[Shyft]

I didn't say that the stories didn't happen, just that now with the Sentry retcon they didn't take place as people remember them. True, just applies only to the character's memories and not the reader's memories, but still gets under the skin of people. Where as the Young Avengers had no effect on Marvel's history until they actually showed up.

sorry, WHICH story didnt happen as you remember it? Has there at any point been a moment in a book where a character has said "Actually, it was the Sentry that stopped Kang" or "actually, the Sentry sacrificied himself, not collosus" or whatever? No. Not a single story has changed, or even had the IMPLICATION of change. At the very worst, we can assume that the Sentry was around somewhere during alot of past Marvel stories. but it has never been written that he had any involvement in any of them. They are in no way changed or invalidated.

[Shyft]

Personally I do not think there is room for both Thor and Sentry, so if removing the latter, this would be fine time. This would make a good point for the S vs H match.

Why would Marvel put their money on a Superman-copy to be their big gun? The biggest hero from the competition. Superman should be the last one they try to copy, if they have not decided to lose their image and just earn money.

W

hes nothing like superman, seriously.

[DaeJi]

They are in no way changed or invalidated.

Which is why I said inaccurate. Would incomplete be a better word? Regardless, fans a lot of the time do not like it when creators reach back into the past and alter it; look that the negativity associated with Vulcan and Gwen Stacy's twins. If you think it's fine, fine. I'm just explaining why I and others do not like it, but please feel free to disagree. It's not like either of us can be wrong.

[Shyft]

Vulcan and Gwen Stacy's twins. If you think it's fine, fine. I'm just explaining why I and others do not like it, but please feel free to disagree. It's not like either of us can be wrong.

but what im trying to get across is the Sentry's creation is SO different from those two stories, because it really doesnt change anything. In Vulcans case, we suddenly learn that there were a whole other team of X-men, and one of them was a Summers, AND they are actually all dead, but Vulcan is back, and they were involved in the Krakoa story-line. It directly gets stuck into a classic X-Men story and changes it.

with the twins, we are not only told to swallow the fact that Osborn, a classic comic dead character, has been alive the whole time, but so has gwen, and they have had kids who are evil, and come back to fight Spidey. It directly takes 2 classic deaths, ruins them, makes it WORSE by giving them KIDS, and then directly gets them involved with Spidey.

With the Sentry, all we are told is that hes actually been around for a long time, but people have forgotten for a long time, and so has he. He didnt get involved and change ANY classic stories. He doesnt ruin anything, he isnt mentioned anywhere. So its really not the same thing. Sentry doesnt damage other story-lines with his existance, the other two do.

[XPac]

Honestly, I big part of the reason why I think you can get away with Sentry's retcon is because it's SOO different than any other retcon we've seen. It doesn't really damamge continuity in any significant way, but it still allows Sentry to be one of the most unique characters out there.

[DaeJi]

but what im trying to get across is the Sentry's creation is SO different from those two stories, because it really doesnt change anything.

Neither do the Stacy Twins or Vulcan. But altering the past in such a large way (and the Sentry is a large chance: he was Reed's best friends, the Hulk was his sidekick, Peter Parker won a Pulitzer Prize for photos of him, etc.), even if it doesn't actually change the stories, gets fans upset.

[XPac]

Neither do the Stacy Twins or Vulcan. But altering the past in such a large way (and the Sentry is a large chance: he was Reed's best friends, the Hulk was his sidekick, Peter Parker won a Pulitzer Prize for photos of him, etc.), even if it doesn't actually change the stories, gets fans upset.

Honestly, I'm suprised it bothers you so much since it's actually kinda similiar to Phyla in SOME ways. They were both just sort of retconned into existance one day.

[Sean Whitmore]

Honestly, I big part of the reason why I think you can get away with Sentry's retcon is because it's SOO different than any other retcon we've seen. It doesn't really damamge continuity in any significant way, but it still allows Sentry to be one of the most unique characters out there.

Sentry's character is unique, but his retcon origins are quite similar to DC's Triumph. (Just throwing in a little Christopher Priest plug)

Both men were heroes that were forgotten by the world, but the real difference comes in how it affected them. Sentry was an established hero at his peak who became a mental mess, where Triumph was a hero at the beginning of his career who lost the opportunity to become as well-known and respected as Superman and the other big guns.


SEAN

[XPac]

Sentry's character is unique, but his retcon origins are quite similar to DC's Triumph. (Just throwing in a little Christopher Priest plug)

Both men were heroes that were forgotten by the world, but the real difference comes in how it affected them. Sentry was an established hero at his peak who became a mental mess, where Triumph was a hero at the beginning of his career who lost the opportunity to become as well-known and respected as Superman and the other big guns.


SEAN

That's true... Triumph and Sentry are a lot alike as far as the circumstances of them being retconned back into existance goes. I forgot about him.

[Sean Whitmore]

That's true... Triumph and Sentry are a lot alike as far as the circumstances of them being retconned back into existance goes. I forgot about him.

For what it's worth, I think it's easy to forget him. Nice idea, and all, but when a character's main personality trait is being angry at the universe for screwing him, the appeal tends to wane.

I'm liking the Sentry a lot more.


SEAN

[ivesaidway2much]

sorry, WHICH story didnt happen as you remember it? Has there at any point been a moment in a book where a character has said "Actually, it was the Sentry that stopped Kang" or "actually, the Sentry sacrificied himself, not collosus" or whatever? No. Not a single story has changed, or even had the IMPLICATION of change. At the very worst, we can assume that the Sentry was around somewhere during alot of past Marvel stories. but it has never been written that he had any involvement in any of them. They are in no way changed or invalidated.Why would people in the past consider the Sentry the world's greatest hero if he was absent for every single big event that ever happened? Are there now a bunch of other crises that people just forgot? Did he defeat Thanos during the Infinity Headband Saga? Did he save the galaxy during Kree-Shi'ar War II and Secret Wars 18? How did the Sentry originally gain such massive public adoration if he abandonned everyone whenever things got a little tough?

And how come no alien or cosmic being ever mentioned him? For instance, when the Champion of the Universe came to fight Earth's strongest beings, why did he avoid the Sentry? Was he afraid? How did they Beyonder miss Earth's greatest hero? And why is the Sentry never mentioned by anyone in the comics that pre-date his mindwipe?

[DaeJi]

Honestly, I'm suprised it bothers you so much since it's actually kinda similiar to Phyla in SOME ways. They were both just sort of retconned into existance one day.

For the same reason I'm not bothered with the Young Avengers: Phyla's retconned existence doesn't effect anyone's past history. She always existed, but no one knew about her until she popped up on the scene in that story. Her brother is the same, a retcon character who was always there but no one knew about.

The Sentry is said to always be the big hero and was always around and was everyone's friend and Earth's greatest and most powerful hero whom everyone loves etc. etc.... That's a lot different than what Phyla and other retcon characters are.

[XPac]

Why would people in the past consider the Sentry the world's greatest hero if he was absent for every single big event that ever happened?

Given the way Sentry operates, he does a LOT. He's just constantly going around having Clock tell him to deal with one crisis after another (or at least that's how he was potrayed in the second Sentry mini). It's possible he's considered the worlds greatest hero because of the sheer volume of deeds he does openly in public.

[Shyft]

Why would people in the past consider the Sentry the world's greatest hero if he was absent for every single big event that ever happened? Are there now a bunch of other crises that people just forgot? Did he defeat Thanos during the Infinity Headband Saga? Did he save the galaxy during Kree-Shi'ar War II and Secret Wars 18? How did the Sentry originally gain such massive public adoration if he abandonned everyone whenever things got a little tough?

And how come no alien or cosmic being ever mentioned him? For instance, when the Champion of the Universe came to fight Earth's strongest beings, why did he avoid the Sentry? Was he afraid? How did they Beyonder miss Earth's greatest hero? And why is the Sentry never mentioned by anyone in the comics that pre-date his mindwipe?

As shown in the original Sentry mini, he had ALOT of his OWN adventures. Plus the fact that CLOC has him saving people like 24/7, he would have been recognised for the sheer number of regular people he saved.

And you can quote all those story-lines all you want, but no book has so far placed the Sentry in them, so its just you ASSUMING that he was present. Until i see otherwise, i wont make that assumption.

[seekquaze]

While this topic has gotten alot of interesting responses about the Sentry and Hulk. If we could please step back a moment and look at the original post:

What could the Sentry due to the Hulk that has not already been done and that the Hulk's healing factor won't magically fix?

thanks

[DaeJi]

While this topic has gotten alot of interesting responses about the Sentry and Hulk. If we could please step back a moment and look at the original post:

What could the Sentry due to the Hulk that has not already been done and that the Hulk's healing factor won't magically fix?

thanks

He could hurt the Hulk's feelings. Hulk needs love too!

[XPac]

He could hurt the Hulk's feelings. Hulk needs love too!

I SERIOUSLY think that might be Plan A for Sentry. If anyone can get to Hulk on that level, it's Golden Man. Maybe Sentry should bring Woof woof for good measures.

[Shyft]

While this topic has gotten alot of interesting responses about the Sentry and Hulk. If we could please step back a moment and look at the original post:

What could the Sentry due to the Hulk that has not already been done and that the Hulk's healing factor won't magically fix?

thanks

Break Every bone in his body? The Void did it, and while yes, the Hulk recovered, it wasnt a quick thing.

[Sean Whitmore]

I SERIOUSLY think that might be Plan A for Sentry. If anyone can get to Hulk on that level, it's Golden Man. Maybe Sentry should bring Woof woof for good measures.

I'm not up on the current status of Hulk multiple personality disorder (having forgotten most of Jenkins' stuff and ignored everything since), but wouldn't any plea made to the Hulk's child-like personality do little more than annoy the more intelligent versions?


SEAN

[XPac]

I'm not up on the current status of Hulk multiple personality disorder (having forgotten most of Jenkins' stuff and ignored everything since), but wouldn't any plea made to the Hulk's child-like personality do little more than annoy the more intelligent versions?


SEAN

I didn't say it would work... I just said for Sentry it might be Plan A since his aura is suppossed to bring out that side of Hulk, or something like that.

[xarathos]

This whole idea begs the question: Which one am I supposed to root for? I want to root for the Hulk, but he's got Doctor Strange and Namor in chains. Yet, Sentry is supposed to be the good guy (?) but he's so pathetic with mental problems he only shows up once.

Not only that, even though the Void/SEntry is supposed to be stronger than the Hulk was (emphasize was) he may just have a mental breakdown in the middle of the fight and curl up in a ball.

[Omega Alpha]

I didn't say it would work... I just said for Sentry it might be Plan A since his aura is suppossed to bring out that side of Hulk, or something like that.

Well, aren't less intelligent versions of the Hulk usually the strongest? So, you would have a still mad Hulk, but even stronger.

[XPac]

Well, aren't less intelligent versions of the Hulk usually the strongest? So, you would have a still mad Hulk, but even stronger.

But I think Sentry's aura actually calms the Hulk. I think that was the whole point of Reed trying to duplicate the effect against Hulk early on.

Or at least I think that's how it works... honestly I'm not exactly sure how or why the aura thing works.

[K Von Doom]

This whole idea begs the question: Which one am I supposed to root for? I want to root for the Hulk, but he's got Doctor Strange and Namor in chains.

Hulk beat Namor off panel too? :(

[XPac]

This whole idea begs the question: Which one am I supposed to root for? I want to root for the Hulk, but he's got Doctor Strange and Namor in chains. Yet, Sentry is supposed to be the good guy (?) but he's so pathetic with mental problems he only shows up once.

Not only that, even though the Void/SEntry is supposed to be stronger than the Hulk was (emphasize was) he may just have a mental breakdown in the middle of the fight and curl up in a ball.

My view on that is simple... I don't care. This is a fight I REALLY REALLY want to see.

The two physically strongest people on earth (I'm sure Juggernaut and Thor fans may disagree, but it's my opinion) duking it out. To me that just sounds like a whole lot of fun. I think in the end both will be "protected" and neither will job or look bad... and that will make it a pretty darn cool fight.

[K Von Doom]

If we go by the pattern laid out in this series, it's not looking good for Sentry. I predict an off panel victory for Hulk. Then the next page, we see the heroes freed, the obedience disks were removed off panel. Then the page over, we see the heroes standing over the beaten down Hulk, so we'll assume the battle took place off panel. Next, we see the Warbound in space. How did they get away? Off panel. :)

[Hulk Strongest One]

But I think Sentry's aura actually calms the Hulk. I think that was the whole point of Reed trying to duplicate the effect against Hulk early on.

Or at least I think that's how it works... honestly I'm not exactly sure how or why the aura thing works.

So Sentry's got a double-whammy:

1. Like Guardian, he's supposed to be more Superman-strong than Hulk/Thor/Thing/Etc. strong

2. He's got an aura that calms the Hulk, which is basically Hulk's weakness.


So it would be like, I don't know, Superman fighting some idiotic futuristic version of Darkseid who is stronger than a million Superman, also wearing his safety suit of kryptonite.

Umm...of course Hulk will win.


(Quite frankly, I never liked Guardian in the Marvel U, either. They have to job way too much to get beaten by guys like Hulk and Thor. What makes Marvel more interesting -- their strong guys are at least dentable by large weaponry -- is made pointless by the presence of at least two guys like this.)

Having said that, an angry Hulk has picked up a complete, large stone castle that's at least as big as the Baxter Building the Guardian picked up, so if anyone could beat him front-on via strength, it would be an angry Hulk.

[3D Master]

2. He's got an aura that calms the Hulk, which is basically Hulk's weakness.

Well, that was back when Hulk was still childlike "Hulk mad, hulk smash." I've got a feeling this time Hulk is going, "Things change, Goldilocks. Now, when Hulk is mad, Hulk stays mad. When Hulk is mad though, Hulk still smashes!" SMASH!

[Slumber Hulk]

I also doubt the Golden Aura will have as big an effect on this Hulk as it has in the past.

[TotalWorldDomination]

yeah, the aura will not have as much of an effect. But throwing him into the sun will. It's just a great way to get rid of people. Then again as he said in Mighty Avengers "I don't throw EVERYONE into the sun".

I still think Sentry will come out on top. Lets Go Bob!

[Toku King]

I'm ready for the Hulk to fight Sentry.
Hulk vs. Ghost Rider is now among one of my favorite comic book fights ever. Just imagine a fight with Sentry.

[Toku King]

So, who here thinks that Rick and Cho can stop the Hulk?
The latest issue to come to my local store was Amadeus has finally seen the hiding place where Hulk is stashing everyone. To keep them there, the Hulk is putting the disks that the Red whatever used or the gladiators. That and robotic drones. The issue ends with Hulk lumbering over Amadeus Cho, saying "Wanna bet?" to Cho's reply of "The Hulk would never kill!"

[DaeJi]

So, who here thinks that Rick and Cho can stop the Hulk?
The latest issue to come to my local store was Amadeus has finally seen the hiding place where Hulk is stashing everyone. To keep them there, the Hulk is putting the disks that the Red whatever used or the gladiators. That and robotic drones. The issue ends with Hulk lumbering over Amadeus Cho, saying "Wanna bet?" to Cho's reply of "The Hulk wuld never kill!"

Well, the next issue of that series was released already. I won't spoil anything for you, but the Hulk is not stopped at the end.

[PatchMadripoor]

It's been out long enough that I WILL spoil things.

Surprisingly, no body dies, despite pushing the Hulk in mind and body as far as you possibly could to kill someone. But the Hulk still plans to go on with his agenda.

[Bulky Brent]

Their has to be at least one casualty that changes everything otherwise this whole build towards the end would have been for nothing.

[DaeJi]

It's been out long enough that I WILL spoil things.

Surprisingly, no body dies, despite pushing the Hulk in mind and body as far as you possibly could to kill someone. But the Hulk still plans to go on with his agenda.

The entire issue also read as a giant soapbox.

[Toku King]

It's been out long enough that I WILL spoil things.

Don't. We JUST got the issue before that here.

[DaeJi]

Don't. We JUST got the issue before that here.

Don't worry, nothing was spoiled. You could read a spoiler-free review of the issue and get about the same info.

[HOLD DAT]

I also doubt the Golden Aura will have as big an effect on this Hulk as it has in the past.

i agree. i think this aura's calming effect would only work on a berserker hulk. this hulk isnt beserk. i guess its rational anger. sentry just gonna have to pound the crap outta him and then get the prisnoer outta there

[Bryson the Red]

i agree. i think this aura's calming effect would only work on a berserker hulk. this hulk isnt beserk. i guess its rational anger. sentry just gonna have to pound the crap outta him and then get the prisnoer outta there

I just don't buy this. Crazy-magic-gold-calm-down-the-Hulk aura only works on certain kinds of angry? Bah. I don't really doubt that's how it's going to be explained though.

[dabig2]

I just don't buy this. Crazy-magic-gold-calm-down-the-Hulk aura only works on certain kinds of angry? Bah. I don't really doubt that's how it's going to be explained though.

It'd be explained probably like this: his aura only worked on the savage, child Hulk. He was nothing more than a night lite for the Hulk-who seemed to calm down when around him.

This Hulk has no need for a night lite. This Hulk is also an adult with a vendetta and "fears nothing". No need to fear the boogey-man (aka Void) as I keep up with the childhood references.

This fight isn't ending with the Hulk calming down/losing due to any kind of aura. Man to man (not man to child) is how it'll go down.

[XPac]

I don't think Sentry's aura alone will work completely... but I'm not sure we should assume that it will have no effect whatsoever. Reed is the smartest guy on the planet, and his first idea on stopping the Hulk was to use Sentry's aura. It obviously didn't stop Hulk... but it may have calmed Hulkd down to SOME degree.

If Sentry's aura can calm him even a littler, it'll have made a difference since we know Hulk uses anger to boost his power level. And against Sentry, he will need as much power as he can muster.

[Jinxer]

Here's how World War Hulk will end.

Hulk will be defeated and as the heroes are about to take him into custody he gathers all his anger for one final strike and throws a massive punch at his captors.

In a parallel dimension The Sinestro War rages and Superman-Prime is defeated and about to be captured by an army of Green Lanterns. Absorbing as much solar energy as he can he throws a punch at his captors.

The resulting force of the two punches sparks the Final Civil Crisis Annihilation Wars on Infinite Earths.

Borders will be broken, Worlds will collide. It will be a crossover event of Flash-killing proportions.

[zhivago]

Here's how World War Hulk will end.

Hulk will be defeated and as the heroes are about to take him into custody he gathers all his anger for one final strike and throws a massive punch at his captors.

In a parallel dimension The Sinestro War rages and Superman-Prime is defeated and about to be captured by an army of Green Lanterns. Absorbing as much solar energy as he can he throws a punch at his captors.

The resulting force of the two punches sparks the Final Civil Crisis Annihilation Wars on Infinite Earths.

Borders will be broken, Worlds will collide. It will be a crossover event of Flash-killing proportions.

And Tony Stark while serving as a new host for Parallax will make a heroic sacrifice to make sure we get a happy end.

[Jinxer]

And Tony Stark while serving as a new host for Parallax will make a heroic sacrifice to make sure we get a happy end.

Also Spiderman gets all the girls... ALL THE GIRLS... because chicks dig Spiderman.

[Magneto Rocks]

Borders will be broken, Worlds will collide. It will be a crossover event of Flash-killing proportions.

I gotta say, that last bit made me laugh out loud.