A suggested new thread (and a moratorium)

[stealthwise]

Know what I like about YABS? How we have a political thread all unto itself, that yes, can become a bit unwieldy, but it keeps most of the same kind of stuff to one area.

I'd love it if we could have a "Debate the Logic/Character of an Opponent" thread that would keep all of the "you're shifting the goalposts" and "my subjective overview is akin to the objective point of view that you propose... BAKAKABAKABAAAAA..."* into it's own thread, without people blathering on about who is making illogical arguments and making strawman arguments, etc, because that crap never leads anywhere and it EATS ENTIRE THREADS.

What do you guys think?


*TM Patton Oswalt

[Red Jack]

I can live with that.

Since it seems that my... manner... tends to function as something of a black hole in these matters I can say that, as far me, there never needs to be another flame war.

Life is too short.

[Pink Bat Max]

Yeah, I can see what you mean, certainly.

Who wants to wrangle the genie into that bottle?

It's kinda the trouble with free speech.... it rarely becomes tidy. However, if everyone agrees to this thread, I'd be pleased to confine my 'No, you're stoopid, no YOU'RE stoopid' arguments to it.

Except from slammin' on Dazzler. I can't restrain myself there.

[Lester C.]

The problem with a mega poltical thread is that it turns real vicious real fast and stays that way. On the other hand new poltical threads start of as a civil exchange of ideas, and when the thread turns bad it usually dies.

[Red Jack]

The problem with a mega poltical thread is that it turns real vicious real fast and stays that way. On the other hand new poltical threads start of as a civil exchange of ideas, and when the thread turns bad it usually dies.

As one of the occasionally vicious, all I can say is it takes two, or ten, to tango.

I have officially put my weapons down. It can be done.

[Paul McEnery]

Know what I like about YABS? How we have a political thread all unto itself, that yes, can become a bit unwieldy, but it keeps most of the same kind of stuff to one area.

I'd love it if we could have a "Debate the Logic/Character of an Opponent" thread that would keep all of the "you're shifting the goalposts" and "my subjective overview is akin to the objective point of view that you propose... BAKAKABAKABAAAAA..."* into it's own thread, without people blathering on about who is making illogical arguments and making strawman arguments, etc, because that crap never leads anywhere and it EATS ENTIRE THREADS.

What do you guys think?


*TM Patton Oswalt

An entire thread for exasperation with trolls? Genius!

Or, we could just ban trolls.

But since there's no banning round these parts, the answer is to stop being nice to trolls or treating them like human beings. Because the troll persona that these people dump on a board is not a human being. It's just the mental effluvia of someone with a severe mental health issue.

You wouldn't let someone take a dump on your physical computer. Why let someone take a dump inside your conversation? Or your head?

[Pink Bat Max]

It might be more useful to petition Gail and see if she can't rename the thread in question 'THE ULTRA-MEGA-RELIGION-VS.-ATHEISM-I-RULE-YOU-SUCK' thread.

I, of course, being a frequent poster on the same.

And you know. I rule. Totally.

I am a bit confused, though. Clearly the 'Worst Ideas' thread has largely become the 'Religion' thread. But is it spreading to other threads? I haven't seen it, except for this one.

So, like.... if you wanna avoid it, can't you simply choose not to read the one thread? (Or now, two.)

If I don't want to read people invoking sound and fury in the defense/condemnation of armpit fucking, and there's only one (now two) threads on which the issue is being discussed.... um. I'd just skip that thread (now threads).

[TomStillwell]

Jesus said fighting is bad.

[Lester C.]

An entire thread for exasperation with trolls? Genius!

Or, we could just ban trolls.

But since there's no banning round these parts, the answer is to stop being nice to trolls or treating them like human beings. Because the troll persona that these people dump on a board is not a human being. It's just the mental effluvia of someone with a severe mental health issue.

You wouldn't let someone take a dump on your physical computer. Why let someone take a dump inside your conversation? Or your head?

It's my understanding that trolls are vicious in every thread. That's not the case here. The people who are vicious in the main political thread, are very nice and cool posters in all of the other nonpolitical threads.

[Red Jack]

It's my understanding that trolls are vicious in every thread. That's not the case here. The people who are vicious in the main political thread, are very nice and cool posters in all of the other nonpolitical threads.

That's right. Some people push each other's buttons. I'm guilty. The solution is not to push, right?

Also, with such a thread, it would to simple to avoid the sort of conflict that erupts elsewhere.

[Ninja Kris]

Have noticed trolls from elsewhere more as political threads appear here.

Disagree with Lester. See people trying to argue with trolls become trolls themselves. Doesn't seem to end.

Best to not have political threads at all here, if this the case.

[Red Jack]

accidental post

[MacQuarrie]

Jesus said fighting is bad.
He also said sometimes you have to sell your cloak and buy a sword.

Luke 22:36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

[Gilda Dent]

While I can see the appeal of such a thread, I'm not quite sure how it would work. If someone uses a strawman or other logical fallacy in a discussion of topic X, it isn't a personal challenge to point this out.

Addressing the flaws in an opponents argument isn't insulting the person; you can do the former without engaging in the latter.

I do agree that it would be better to refrain from personal attacks, but what the OP seems to be proposing would amount to moving all debate of any kind into a single thread, which I'm not really sure is feasible.

Perhaps make an all purpose religion thread as a sister to the politics one, and let other subjects play themselves out in their individual threads to prevent a general topic thread from being consumed by a single topic?

Once religon enters a thread, it tends to go greatly downhill from there.

[Red Jack]

If the goal is to keep the flaming down to a simmer,I can suggest the policy of another forum I frequent.

When any discussion becomes too negatively personal, regardless of reason or players involved, there is no discussion about who's right or who is the most egregious offender. The entire thread is immediately sent to "COVENTRY."

This is a segregated area, clearly marked, where everyone knows that what's happening inside the thread has nothing to with anything but people's mutual dislike of one another. It has the effect of killing such threads because, inasmuch as no one wants to be thought childish, no one stays in the threads the are sent there.

No one is ever singled out. The entire thread pays the price of bad behavior.

As you can imagine the "Coventry" area is not very popular and, as a result, there are almost NO flame wars in this forum. Also, people ARE able to have heated discussions but not to go for each other's throats in ways that might have real world repercussions.

I dunno who mods YABS but, if it's Gail herself, the odds of any true oversight are low as I doubt she has the time. However, if there is a separate mod, it would be simple to create a COVENTRY tag and add it to any thread that has caught fire for personal sniping.

Carrot and stick.

I've been called a troll before, and I've considered others to be trolls but, with the system I described, there are no trolls and almost no flames.

Something to think about.

[NickThompson]

An entire thread for exasperation with trolls? Genius!

Or, we could just ban trolls.

But since there's no banning round these parts, the answer is to stop being nice to trolls or treating them like human beings. Because the troll persona that these people dump on a board is not a human being. It's just the mental effluvia of someone with a severe mental health issue.

You wouldn't let someone take a dump on your physical computer. Why let someone take a dump inside your conversation? Or your head?
But if you start treating others like lesser being, don't you then become part of the problem?

Also, a common belief is that the term troll comes from the fishing technique. As in, the troll is trying to get you to take the bait. Isn't reacting negatively to them giving them what they want?

IMO, the best way to deal with a troll is to ignore them.

[rick]

Might I suggest that if you don't like a thread or the comments of a poster in a thread, that you skip posting in the one case and ignore the poster who bothers you in the second.

That way, everyone can keep on talking about whatever they want to, and individual posters can ignore whatever bothers them.

[Red Jack]

Might I suggest that if you don't like a thread or the comments of a poster in a thread, that you skip posting in the one case and ignore the poster who bothers you in the second.

That way, everyone can keep on talking about whatever they want to, and individual posters can ignore whatever bothers them.

That's so crazy it just might work!

[beetlebum]

Why didn't anyone think of that before?:confused: SERIOUSLY!:p An ignore feature, just might work.... No but the thing I like bout YABS is free speech. In the words of Oasis, free to be whatever I choose and I'll sing the blues if I want....This thread gives into my principals, my sensible libertarian principles. It's like the free market. We are allowed to discuss whatever we want, and along the way, tempers will flare and we will get contumelious and insult each other. The first amendment is a two way street.

But it's like Gail says, we're all adults, we can sort this out. I like the fact that there is very little moderation. I never did too well with authority figures anyways. I understand the need for mods in other forums, but with this one, I really don't want to see more intervention. It's my asylum board. And regarding the political and religious threads, call me crazy but I like them. Imagine that, the child who watched her parents fight every single day growing up does not mind a good row now and then.

It may seem overbearing and a bit hard to stomach at times, but that is what real life is like. It's a nice thought though stealthwise. You Canadians are waaaaay to nice, ya know that?:D

[Crowley]

Certain political issues are so big that they need to be discussed in their own topics and not thrown into a behemoth thread...

[Pink Bat Max]

Certain political issues are so big that they need to be discussed in their own topics and not thrown into a behemoth thread...

I quite agree. Which is why I'm going to create the 'White Shoes After Labor Day Amendment... Yea or Nay?' thread.

Or.... not.


*heees, and runs off*

[bfrank]

It's my understanding that trolls are vicious in every thread. That's not the case here. The people who are vicious in the main political thread, are very nice and cool posters in all of the other nonpolitical threads.

Most of the trolls here are the ones complaining about the trolling......hi, paul!

[Pink Bat Max]

Most of the trolls here are the ones complaining about the trolling......

Well, you know the old saw sex and perversions: "If I do it, it's erotic, if you do it, it's kinky. If they do it, it's perversion."

Prolly something similar holds true in discussions and trolling. "If I do it, it's debate. If you do it, it's arguing. If they do it, it's trolling."

[Red Jack]

Well, you know the old saw sex and perversions: "If I do it, it's erotic, if you do it, it's kinky. If they do it, it's perversion."

Prolly something similar holds true in discussions and trolling. "If I do it, it's debate. If you do it, it's arguing. If they do it, it's trolling."



Mind if I say, "Wow?"

[Bob Violence]

I have a rule I follow, "Never post more than 2x in the same political thread". I'll post to follow up or refute an attack on my opinion, but since life is short and idiots are implacably thick, I don't bother re-engaging for a third go-round.

And really, how many minds have been changed in debates on internet forums? 5? Everone comes with their point of view and they argue until they either don't care anymore or call each other Nazis. I don't see the point in excessively moderating political debate threads, the people posting there know what to expect.

[Sabrinaset]

Well, you know the old saw sex and perversions: "If I do it, it's erotic, if you do it, it's kinky. If they do it, it's perversion."

Prolly something similar holds true in discussions and trolling. "If I do it, it's debate. If you do it, it's arguing. If they do it, it's trolling."

I think I've said this elsewhere ... but we really DO need all the political stuff stuffed in one tiny corner and quarantined there. I mean, the second other political threads start cropping up like viruses here, the next thing you know, people from elsewhere start popping up here like zits on a teenagers face, and they start acting ... differently.

YABS is a nice, friendly place. We don't really need strangers coming in here and telling us we're full of sh*t because we disagree with them. That's OUR job!

[Reverend Smooth]

Most of the trolls here are the ones complaining about the trolling......hi, paul!Yet another drive-by by a guy who does little BUT troll here.

[Paul McEnery]

Most of the trolls here are the ones complaining about the trolling......hi, paul!

Oh go to hell.

Unlike you, I've never started racist shit on these boards. Instead, I've been called a troll by you for shutting you down on starting racist shit. Or calling you on various other kinds of shit.

So here's a clue for you. Starting shit is trolling. Ending shit isn't. Got that?

Oh, btw, your post right here? That's trolling.

So like I say, go to hell.










Oh, and note to the other Rodney King's on this thread: that's the problem with the "can't we all just get along" routine. There's always some offensive git like bfrank who won't let that happen.

[Pink Bat Max]

I think I've said this elsewhere ... but we really DO need all the political stuff stuffed in one tiny corner and quarantined there. I mean, the second other political threads start cropping up like viruses here, the next thing you know, people from elsewhere start popping up here like zits on a teenagers face, and they start acting ... differently.

YABS is a nice, friendly place. We don't really need strangers coming in here and telling us we're full of sh*t because we disagree with them. That's OUR job!

Ummm...

I feel chastised but I don't know what for?


Do you feel I've been doing that?

[Lester C.]

This thread is a perfect example of my argument why having one big political thread sucks. Page one was a very pleasant exchange of ideas between people of differing ideologies with the end result of all better for having the experience. Page two on the other hand descended into the twelfth level of hell and now the thread is stuck there.

[Pink Bat Max]

fuck

i'm sorry everyone. i'll leave you be.

[Paul McEnery]

But if you start treating others like lesser being, don't you then become part of the problem?

Also, a common belief is that the term troll comes from the fishing technique. As in, the troll is trying to get you to take the bait. Isn't reacting negatively to them giving them what they want?

IMO, the best way to deal with a troll is to ignore them.

Well, you have a point, except where the troll is deliberately spreading false information.

Oh, and I'm not saying that trolls are lesser beings -- although they are, obviously -- but that they don't treat other people as if they were, well, people. Instead of entering into an interpersonal exchange, they disrupt interpersonal exchanges.

In general, I reckon that's because trolls are threatened by interpersonal exchanges because, well, they don't have the least idea how to achieve them.

[Red Jack]

fuck

i'm sorry everyone. i'll leave you be.

It's extremely likely she was joking, kid. Don't sweat it.

Do your thing.

[stealthwise]

For the record, I don't mind the occasional outbursts that people have with one another. Sometimes we all get exasperated at the BS that we find spewed on the screen. I just hate entire pages of threads being eaten up with people arguing about the WAY people argue, rather than the actual material being argued. When things get to that point, it's better off to just leave things be and walk away. I know that it's hard to do, hell, I can't do it half the time, but it's for the better. Better discussion, better temperaments, better blood pressure.

[Pink Bat Max]

It's extremely likely she was joking, kid. Don't sweat it.

Do your thing.

Nah. It's all cool. I got along before YABS, I'll get along without.

Peace, and all that.

[stealthwise]

Nah. It's all cool. I got along before YABS, I'll get along without.

Peace, and all that.

Are you serious? You're my favourite new poster!

[Reverend Smooth]

For the record, I don't mind the occasional outbursts that people have with one another. Sometimes we all get exasperated at the BS that we find spewed on the screen. I just hate entire pages of threads being eaten up with people arguing about the WAY people argue, rather than the actual material being argued. When things get to that point, it's better off to just leave things be and walk away. I know that it's hard to do, hell, I can't do it half the time, but it's for the better. Better discussion, better temperaments, better blood pressure.If you're referring to the countdown thread, everyone's problem was not with Red Jack's manner, but the fact that he insisted on trolling with page after page of posts that consisted of, 'I'm smarter than you, so my opinions are valid and all of yours are not.' Heck, he said as much. And any rebuttal was taken as a personal insult.

You expect people to just let folks shit all over their topics and be doormats to that kind of nonsense?

Or are you annoyed with the politics threads, in which Samurai and Briareos lie all the time?

In either case, when one addresses the points, one's told that they're morons and/or their posts are simply ignored.

If you want some kumbaya love love types of threads, you're not going to get them as long as people make excuses for that type of behavior. That includes speaking in generalities about it, refusing to address the specifics, and making it clear that bullshit is not tolerated by the locals. Otherwise, trolls just spread crap everywhere because they can. Every single time a troll's been defended or responses to them criticised, here and elsewhere, they just get worse.

Just because it makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean that everyone else needs to act like these people's bitches just so a few people don't get freaked out because there's conflict going around. Sometimes conflict is necessary.

[Sabrinaset]

Ummm...

I feel chastised but I don't know what for?


Do you feel I've been doing that?


You? Not at all! I wasn't referring to you!

[Pink Bat Max]

Are you serious? You're my favourite new poster!

Serious? Yes and no.

More of one of those 'I'm having a bad day and being a fucking drama queen' sorta dealios. I'll give it an overnight think.

[Pink Bat Max]

You? Not at all! I wasn't referring to you!

Oh.

*facepalms*

Carry on.

(For the record, I do still apologize for any excesses or lost tempers I displayed.)

[Red Jack]

Oh.

*facepalms*

Carry on.

(For the record, I do still apologize for any excesses or lost tempers I displayed.)

Whatev.

Things get hot sometimes, it's how it works. If there's a situation where people really just can't get along with each other, the simplest solution is to realize it and steer clear of those folks you don't like or who don't like you.

Then it's all smiles.

Except when it's not, I guess.

I wish I'd thought of Bob Violence's rule years ago.

And I like the name too.

Bob Violence.

Reminds me of Daaaaaaark Vengeance!

[Pink Bat Max]

Or perhaps I'll just follow the immortial Australian wisdom of Cam when he said, and I quote....

"Have a beer."

[stealthwise]

If you're referring to the countdown thread, everyone's problem was not with Red Jack's manner, but the fact that he insisted on trolling with page after page of posts that consisted of, 'I'm smarter than you, so my opinions are valid and all of yours are not.' Heck, he said as much. And any rebuttal was taken as a personal insult.

You expect people to just let folks shit all over their topics and be doormats to that kind of nonsense?

Or are you annoyed with the politics threads, in which Samurai and Briareos lie all the time?

In either case, when one addresses the points, one's told that they're morons and/or their posts are simply ignored.

If you want some kumbaya love love types of threads, you're not going to get them as long as people make excuses for that type of behavior. That includes speaking in generalities about it, refusing to address the specifics, and making it clear that bullshit is not tolerated by the locals. Otherwise, trolls just spread crap everywhere because they can. Every single time a troll's been defended or responses to them criticised, here and elsewhere, they just get worse.

Just because it makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean that everyone else needs to act like these people's bitches just so a few people don't get freaked out because there's conflict going around. Sometimes conflict is necessary.

Again, I don't mind conflict. Sometimes I LOVE conflict, or at least reading about it. I just HATE reading about people arguing when they lose complete track of their points and just start babbling about logical fallacies when neither side will acknowledge what a strawman IS, let alone realize that they're not "playing fair." Pointing out that someone is being an illogical jackass once is fine, but I hate when people spend more time talking about the nature of the argument than actually just arguing their points.

[bfrank]

Oh go to hell.

make my bed for me, you'll beat me there by years......
Unlike you, I've never started racist shit on these boards. Instead, I've been called a troll by you for shutting you down on starting racist shit. Or calling you on various other kinds of shit.
So now your a liar and a troll.....the things that you claim o hate about sam, you great hypocrite....god don't like ugly, and he is sure getting back at you....but please, by all means, prove the lies above.....

So here's a clue for you. Starting shit is trolling. Ending shit isn't. Got that?

so stop starting shit, troll.....

Oh, btw, your post right here? That's trolling.

So like I say, go to hell.

right back at'cah....now I'm off to have a boiled egg, with lots of salt.....

lol.....










Oh, and note to the other Rodney King's on this thread: that's the problem with the "can't we all just get along" routine. There's always some offensive git like bfrank who won't let that happen.

You're the biggest fucking hypocrite here.....for the time being......