Should I get Virtua Fighter 4 and Planescape Torment?

[Wesley Dodds]

Two games I've been thinking of getting.

I didn't know Planescape Torment existed until I read an interview with the writer about it. Interested, I found out more about it. It sounds like a good game but I've never played Dungeons & Dragons -- the closest I've come is playing Neverwinter Nights for three hours as a female monk and then getting bored. I'm also worried that the story is a little... too bleak. Does it at least have a happy ending?

I'm awful at fighting games. But I'd like to get better. I noticed that Virtua Fighter has a sophisticated training mode -- would it worthwhile for fighting game tragic? I want to invest a bit of time in a fighting game and get away from spaming moves and button mashing. How deep is the customisation system in Virtua Fighter 4 anyway? I liked the options in Tekken 5 but thought the variety was a bit limited.

[HynerianChef]

Definately get Planescape: Torment. It's just an amazing game.

[jesse_custer]

Planescape: Torment is incredible. It has a storyline deeper than the Pacific Ocean and tons of unique quests. I'd say it's better than all the Baldur's Gate games.

Also, if you want to get away from button-mashing fighting games, I recommend Street Fighter III. Its parry system was the first of its kind and hasn't been duplicated since, to my knowledge.

[Gargus]

Well he did ask if he should get SF3, he asked about virtua fighter 4. They have nothing to do with eachother. Try and stay with the person asking a question, if you dont know then dont answer.

Yes planescape is very good. Although its one of those games everyone will say get, even the ones who didnt play it or play it much. Like a auto reflex in terms of responses. Really its not much different than any of the other types of games like it, but the way its presented is slightly different like how you earn abilities.

Virtua fighter 4 is like the other VF. If you liked those then youll like this. Its a more matured fighter vs. one thats just wildly pulling off moves or performing big special combos and such. Its kind of like the james taylor of music, kind of smooth and easy going instead of trying to be all flashy and loud.

[jesse_custer]

He said he wanted a fighter that's not about button mashing, and Street Fighter III is more qualified than VF4 in that regard.

[Xero Kaiser]

He said he wanted a fighter that's not about button mashing, and Street Fighter III is more qualified than VF4 in that regard.

More qualified, how? VF is considered to be the most technical fighting game ever made. With many moves having very strict timing and inputs. There's no fighter that's less about button-mashing than VF.

I noticed that Virtua Fighter has a sophisticated training mode

Very. The game will teach you how to combo, how to counter, which moves lead to juggles, etc (i.e. the training mode actually trains you). And then quest mode will have you using what you learned. If you want to learn how to play and you don't have anyone else to teach you, VF4's training mode is the best way to go. 1000x more effective than slapping around a training dummy that doesn't move.

How deep is the customisation system in Virtua Fighter 4 anyway?

You can't customize anything but their outfits

[K'Nort]

Planescape Torment is a great game. And no, it's really not all that bleak.

I've just started replaying it last weekend for the first time in about eight years.

Neverwinter Nights is pretty boring, so don't let that turn you off. (Or was that Icewind Dale? I can never keep them straight.)

I basically only play D&D type games though, so I can't tell you what it's like from outside that perspective.

[jesse_custer]

More qualified, how? VF is considered to be the most technical fighting game ever made. With many moves having very strict timing and inputs. There's no fighter that's less about button-mashing than VF.

The physics of VF4 are spot on, but I've seen cases where button-mashing works well in the game. Street Fighter III pretty much cuts that out with the parry system, which involves more timing than anything in VF4.

[Black Atom]

I'm awful at fighting games. But I'd like to get better. I noticed that Virtua Fighter has a sophisticated training mode -- would it worthwhile for fighting game tragic? I want to invest a bit of time in a fighting game and get away from spaming moves and button mashing. How deep is the customisation system in Virtua Fighter 4 anyway? I liked the options in Tekken 5 but thought the variety was a bit limited.

Most fighting game enthusiasts like VF because it's highly technical. It has the most rigid physics out there and the timing is very unforgiving. Saying that, I'm not sure that's what you want to jump into if you're just getting into fighting games as you may find the rigidity a bit frustrating even as you're going through the training. Also, VF, while beautifully rendered, lacks the flashiness of 3D fighters like Tekken or DoA, so even pulling off that huge combo you've been practicing for days isn't gonna give you the sense of flare some other games have.

You might try Soul Calibur 2/3 if you haven't already. The learning curve isn't as high and you'll get the satisfaction of pulling off moderate-to-difficult level combos/attacks easier, which it sounds like you want (getting away from mashing). Pulling off the flashiest/most effective moves in VF4 is difficult and can be frustrating even after practice and especially against an opponent.

[Black Atom]

The physics of VF4 are spot on, but I've seen cases where button-mashing works well in the game. Street Fighter III pretty much cuts that out with the parry system, which involves more timing than anything in VF4.

Not necessarily. Utilizing counters well 100% of the time requires some pretty daunting timing in VF4. Button-mashing only works at really low levels of competition.

That's another issue you might run into with VF4--the huge gulf in competition. In my experience, I either run up against people at really low levels (mashers, who string together some simply juggles) or people who're just insanely good. Hard to find good mid-level casual competition. Not sure how it is online, though.

[jesse_custer]

Not necessarily. Utilizing counters well 100% of the time requires some pretty daunting timing in VF4. Button-mashing only works at really low levels of competition.

Personally, I found SF3's parrying system more intimidating than any of VF4's moves. The fact that you're having to step into attacks is already against your common fighting game instinct, and on top of that, you have to be very precise with the button taps, especially when dealing with super arts. Plus, you almost have to memorize every attack from every character in order to predict when you should actually parry. Whereas VF4's counters require mainly daunting timing on your part, your knowledge of specific moves from your opponents play just as big of a role in SF3's parrying system.

[Xero Kaiser]

The physics of VF4 are spot on, but I've seen cases where button-mashing works well in the game.

The only thing mashing will do is throw out a 2 hit combo.

Street Fighter III pretty much cuts that out with the parry system, which involves more timing than anything in VF4.

Nothing in SF3 requires moves to be done in 1/60th of a second.

nd on top of that, you have to be very precise with the button taps, especially when dealing with super arts

No you don't. The entire concept of buffering/negative edges/whatever come from the fact that the moves aren't strict with the inputs. To give a simpler example, it's why you can charge Remy/Guile's sonic boom while you're crouching and why you can do 360 degree specials without actually making a 360 degree motion.

Whereas VF4's counters require mainly daunting timing on your part, your knowledge of specific moves from your opponents play just as big of a role in SF3's parrying system.

And you'd need to know your opponents specific moves to counter in VF (or any game with a counter system) as well. Except in VF:
-attacks come from 3 different heights, instead of SF's 2
-your opponents attacks can be delayed and cancelled, throwing off your timing
-larger movelists = more moves you have to be aware of.

It'd be impossible to counter effectively if you didn't know your opponents moves

[Shawn Hopkins]

You should get both of them, but you should get Planescape Torment more.

Planescape Torment, I believe, has elements that set it above other games of its type. Not so much in gameplay, which is fairly standard, but in the excellence and mindbending deepness of its story and the amount of choices you can make in the way you play and in deciding who your character is and how he acts. There are several ways, for example, to approach the endgame. How happy the ending is depends on what you do with the final enemy and how you interpret the final event, though with the situation the Nameless One is in I don't think I'm spoiling too much to say that it won't turn out totally flowers and puppies.

The biggest drawback is that it's not a game for people who don't like to read, going through all the dialogue options might be intimidating to some. I liked it, though, and I think it's one of the best written games I've ever played.

You can probably find it in a doublepack with another game for about $10, so there's not that much risk.

If you play it and you do like it, you should definitely get both games in the Fallout Series, System Shock II and Deus Ex, all games that are similar in that they give you a lot of freedom to play your own way.

[hoffmandu]

Planescape: Torment is incredible. It has a storyline deeper than the Pacific Ocean and tons of unique quests. I'd say it's better than all the Baldur's Gate games.

Also, if you want to get away from button-mashing fighting games, I recommend Street Fighter III. Its parry system was the first of its kind and hasn't been duplicated since, to my knowledge.

Parry system? I thought Bushido Blade did that a while ago.

[jesse_custer]

Actually, Weaponlord (SNES) had a parrying move before anything. However, when I said "of its kind" I was referring to the fact that you can parry in the air, while standing, while crouching, etc. It's far more expansive than anything before or after it.

The only thing mashing will do is throw out a 2 hit combo.

Well, my button-mashers must be better than yours.

Nothing in SF3 requires moves to be done in 1/60th of a second.

And?

By the way, just throwing out a random fraction doesn't prove anything.

No you don't. The entire concept of buffering/negative edges/whatever come from the fact that the moves aren't strict with the inputs. To give a simpler example, it's why you can charge Remy/Guile's sonic boom while you're crouching and why you can do 360 degree specials without actually making a 360 degree motion.

Wow. First of all, the reason why you can charge Guile's sonic boom while crouching is because gamepads give us the option of pressing both down and back at the same time. In other words, unless you're holding down/back, you can't perform a sonic boom while crouching. Therefore, the input is important. Furthermore, I've never performed a 360 throw without doing the full motion and have never heard of anyone else doing it either. Finally, even if you were right about either of these, that doesn't mean the parry system doesn't require strict input. Because it does. The parrying system in SF3 is one of the hardest things of any fighting game to master. This difficulty has been cited not only by everyday gamers but professional reviewers. So maybe you should rethink your argument.

And you'd need to know your opponents specific moves to counter in VF (or any game with a counter system) as well. Except in VF:
-attacks come from 3 different heights, instead of SF's 2
-your opponents attacks can be delayed and cancelled, throwing off your timing
-larger movelists = more moves you have to be aware of.

1. SF3 has three different heights. Check the manual and actually play the game.

2. Attacks can also be delayed and canceled in SF3.

3. VF4 may have more moves, but it doesn't require you to go against natural instinct by tapping forward ahead of time to parry the attack. If you perform a parry wrong, you're just walking right into the attack, which will cause more damage. Again, it's more intimidating than any counter in VF4. At least in VF4 you just have to time button presses, not go against the basic rule of fighting games: don't walk into an attack.

[Xero Kaiser]

Well, my button-mashers must be better than yours.

Almost no attack string in the game is longer than 2 or 3 hits. So unless your mashers know magic, they aren't breaking out anything longer than that

And?

By the way, just throwing out a random fraction doesn't prove anything.

It's not a "random fraction", it's called a "just frame". A move where the input needs to be done within one frame of animation. If the game's moving at 60 frames in a second, then one frame = 1/60th of a second.

Nobody's being random

Wow. First of all, the reason why you can charge Guile's sonic boom while crouching is because gamepads give us the option of pressing both down and back at the same time. In other words, unless you're holding down/back, you can't perform a sonic boom while crouching.

The point is, it's more lenient than VF is. In VF, if a move tells you to press back-foward-punch, you damn well better hit back-foward-punch because downback-foward-punch won't work.

Furthermore, I've never performed a 360 throw without doing the full motion and have never heard of anyone else doing it either.

You can, that's why it's possible to do a walking 360 throw.

1. SF3 has three different heights. Check the manual and actually play the game.

There's highs and lows. Oh, and Universal overheads but those aren't applied to normal moves.

2. Attacks can also be delayed and canceled in SF3.

Uhh...no they can't. But I'd be interested in knowing how you'd guard cancel without a guard button.

3. VF4 may have more moves, but it doesn't require you to go against natural instinct by tapping forward ahead of time to parry the attack.

You can't tap foward ahead of time to parry in SF3 either. Has to be done as the attack hits you

If you perform a parry wrong, you're just walking right into the attack, which will cause more damage

No it won't. Screw up a parry in SF3 and you take the hit. Screw up a parry/counter in VF and you take a counter hit. Which not only makes you take more damage but can also stun/stagger/launch you when the move normally wouldn't have done so.

Again, it's more intimidating than any counter in VF4. At least in VF4 you just have to time button presses, not go against the basic rule of fighting games: don't walk into an attack.

It takes about 3 seconds to get used to pressing foward instead of back. Once you get over that hump, you're still left with the fact that there's a hell of a lot more moves you have to be aware of in VF to counter effectively. And you have more parry/reversal commands that you have to keep in your head (some of which include the incredibly difficult act of pressing foward) that may require different inputs depending on your characters stance or the limb your opponent attacks with.

How that's less intimdating than parrying is beyond me. Especially since your rule of not walking into an attack applies here as well, but has the threat of taking a counter hit added to it

[jesse_custer]

The point is, it's more lenient than VF is. In VF, if a move tells you to press back-foward-punch, you damn well better hit back-foward-punch because downback-foward-punch won't work.

However, you're forgetting that charge moves in fighting games have different rules than "tap-buttons" moves, so the correlation you're looking for isn't there. Furthermore, both games have types of moves that aren't performed on the other (i.e., no super moves in VF4).

You can, that's why it's possible to do a walking 360 throw.

You might have to get specific here. I've performed walking and jumping 360 throws, and at no point have I ever performed one without the full motion.

There's highs and lows. Oh, and Universal overheads but those aren't applied to normal moves.

There are mids as well.

Uhh...no they can't. But I'd be interested in knowing how you'd guard cancel without a guard button.

Yes, they can. They're just delayed in different ways that affect the counter system of SF3. You can delay jump kicks, for instance, by "delaying" your input, which will require better timing for a parry from the opponent. Also, Dudley in particular has a set of delays and cancels in his moveset.

You can't tap foward ahead of time to parry in SF3 either. Has to be done as the attack hits you

I confirm, slightly ahead of time. If you do it when the opponent attacks you, you're hit already. You have to time it exactly before the attack.

No it won't. Screw up a parry in SF3 and you take the hit. Screw up a parry/counter in VF and you take a counter hit. Which not only makes you take more damage but can also stun/stagger/launch you when the move normally wouldn't have done so.

Wrong again, but perhaps I should have elaborated. In Street Fighter, blocking is an option. So you have a choice between blocking and parrying. If you decide to parry instead of block but screw up the parry, you are taking more damage and setting yourself up for a world of trouble by literally walking into the opponent's barrage.

It takes about 3 seconds to get used to pressing foward instead of back. Once you get over that hump, you're still left with the fact that there's a hell of a lot more moves you have to be aware of in VF to counter effectively. And you have more parry/reversal commands that you have to keep in your head (some of which include the incredibly difficult act of pressing foward) that may require different inputs depending on your characters stance or the limb your opponent attacks with.

You don't press forward. You have to tap it. You can't just hold forward and parry instantly as you can by just holding back to block.

[Xero Kaiser]

You might have to get specific here. I've performed walking and jumping 360 throws, and at no point have I ever performed one without the full motion.

360 throws only require 6 directional inputs. So back-downback-down-downfoward-foward-fowardup is enough

Yes, they can. They're just delayed in different ways that affect the counter system of SF3. You can delay jump kicks, for instance, by "delaying" your input, which will require better timing for a parry from the opponent.

Delaying a move isn't the same as not doing anything

Wrong again, but perhaps I should have elaborated. In Street Fighter, blocking is an option. So you have a choice between blocking and parrying. If you decide to parry instead of block but screw up the parry, you are taking more damage and setting yourself up for a world of trouble by literally walking into the opponent's barrage.

If you miss a parry you take the normal amount of damage from the attack. You don't take counter-damage and get stunned/launched on top of it.

And just how far do you think your character's moving by tapping foward?

You don't press forward. You have to tap it. You can't just hold forward and parry instantly as you can by just holding back to block.

I never said you could

[Metronome35]

Wesley, if you want to play fighting games, and get yourself away from button bashing Virtua Fighter 4 is a good way to go. Like Xero said, its training mode really shows you how to play the game quite well. The Quest mode is also great for beginners, because it has a gradual difficulty curve so that you'll fight a lot of fairly easy opponents to begin with, but as it goes on the CPU gets better, but always only a bit at a time.
Practice at both will mean you won't feel the need to button-bash at all.

Most fighting game enthusiasts like VF because it's highly technical. It has the most rigid physics out there and the timing is very unforgiving.

I can't really agree with this. While there are a few moves with tricky timing in Virtua Fighter(like Akira's Knee or Dragon Lance) the majority of moves are easy enough to pull off.

The only thing mashing will do is throw out a 2 hit combo
Nah, you can button bash out a lot of the games' moves, especially when playing on a console given that they have most of the button combinations mapped to single buttons.
Lei-Fei's also quite masher friendly, due to his stance shifting. At a small tournament that was held here not long ago, someone button bashing with Lei-Fei managed to beat someone who had a much better grasp of the game.

[jesse_custer]

Delaying a move isn't the same as not doing anything

Didn't say that. Was giving an example of a delay in SF3 since you implied there were no delays or cancels (which there are).

If you miss a parry you take the normal amount of damage from the attack. You don't take counter-damage and get stunned/launched on top of it.

Again, you're missing my point. In SF3, you can either block or parry. Blocking is easy because you just have to hold back. Therefore, if you decide to try a parry during a usual blocking situation but mess up, you are taking more damage than you would with blocking.

I never said you could

It takes about 3 seconds to get used to pressing foward instead of back.

That statement, if taken at face value, sounds like you're equating the input of a parry with a block, when in fact they require different inputs.

[Black Atom]

I can't really agree with this. While there are a few moves with tricky timing in Virtua Fighter(like Akira's Knee or Dragon Lance) the majority of moves are easy enough to pull off.

Easy is pretty subjective, I guess. When recommending games to a beginner, I'd say stringing together moves in VF is more demanding than doing so in other similar games (like Dead or Alive, for example).

[zuludelta]

If you're intent on getting Virtua Fighter 4, you might as well get an arcade stick to get the full experience. I find it real hard to transition to the Dualshock controllers when it comes to fighting games that I've trained on in the arcades.

I will echo some of the sentiments mentioned in this thread regarding VF4. It's nowhere as flashy as Tekken Tag Tournament or Tekken 5 in terms of visuals and the input system is very unforgiving, which can lead to a lot of frustration if you aren't already somewhat schooled in the virtual martial arts. There's a sense of accomplishment when you manage to master a particular character but if you're just looking for a relatively deep "casual" 3D fighting game for the PS2, I recommend Soul Calibur 2 and 3, or even better yet, Tekken 3 for the original Playstation (a stripped-down arcade version of Tekken 3 is an unlockable feature in the PS2 version of Tekken 5), which I think is the high point for Namco in terms of combining accessibility with moveset depth.

[Wesley Dodds]

Well, I decided to get Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution.

I love it. The best fighting game I've ever played. In fact, I love it so much that my next purchase will be an arcade stick. What's a good one for ps2?

Right now I'm learning to play as Akira -- yep, jumping in the deep end.

I'm never playing Tekken again!!!