FINAL CRISIS: The End revisited.

[Paul Newell]

There's been a lot of speculation about what Final Crisis will be and what it will mean to the DC Universe. There is even specualtion that it'll really be the end of the DCU or a complete reboot. Mentions of a "Great Disaster" keep popping up in various titles and Grant Morrison stated that Final Crisis ends with Kamandi.

I was struck by an odd thought the other night...They could actually do it. At least in such a way that the DCU continues, only not on "New Earth". Maybe this is the end of the DCU, at least for New Earth. The Great Disaster happens and all the major heroes are killed. We know from the lead up that the multiverse will be a big part of things, also we haven't seen hide nor hair of "Earth-1". It also seems like just about every DC hero has a doppleganger of some sort running around on New Earth these days.

Here's what I thought, what if the big reveal of Final Crisis is that Earth-1 is the Pre-Crisis DCU? Well, much like the Legion we saw in the Lightning Saga, a new version of Pre-Crisis characters. And the end of Final Crisis is that most of the heroes of New Earth get killed or destroyed, leaving their dopplegangers, eg. Kyle Rayner, Arthur Curry/Aquaman, the new Atom, the new Blue Beetle, Renee Montoya/Question, the New Gods that appeared in Seven Soldiers, etc. the only ones left alive, left to deal with a devastated world. A world who's future deals with the "Last boy on Earth". Superman dies, Batman dies, Wonder Woman dies.

And the focus of the existing DC titles? They switch to Earth-1. Well, most of them.

We have updated, Pre-Crisis versions back in the spotlight. Still hale and healthy, unlike their New Earth counterparts. A reboot....Only back to the "originals" and all their Pre-Crisis history.

No Justice Society, Charlton heroes, Marvel Family or Quality Heroes on this Earth, however...They have their own, as shown in 52.

A new status quo...And an old one.

Anyway, it was just an odd thought.

[DC_FanBoy]

God I really hope they dont do that...On one hand it will be a nice throwback to the silver age but on the other hand it would suck to see the JLA and the JSA on different earths again. What would happen to the legacy JLA character like Michael Holt and Pieter Cross, would they be replaced by the originals??

I get your Earth One theory, maybe its the Earth that is seen in the new Justice League #0 (the page that Jim Lee drew.)

In the end they wont make everyone happy but I think that it would be a really bad move to split every this up again a'la pre-coie DCU.

[Paul Newell]

God I really hope they dont do that...On one hand it will be a nice throwback to the silver age but on the other hand it would suck to see the JLA and the JSA on different earths again. What would happen to the legacy JLA character like Michael Holt and Pieter Cross, would they be replaced by the originals??
Either that or the new Earth-2 has counterparts to the New Earth characters. The Earth-2 we saw in 52 wasn't exactly the same as the Pre-Crisis Earth-2.

Bring on the speculation! :)

[Sean Walsh]

A new status quo...And an old one.

Anyway, it was just an odd thought.

That's the kind of odd I expect from Grant Morrison.

Good job, Paul. You've tapped into that amazing mindset.

Now run away and escape it, QUICKLY!, before its sheer insanity squashs you like a bug. :p

[Choppa]

I wouldn't be surprised if DC didn't even notice that New Earth and E1 are different and that Earth 1 technically still exists. The two seem so identical I wouldn't be surprised.

[Flash230]

Here's what I thought, what if the big reveal of Final Crisis is that Earth-1 is the Pre-Crisis DCU? Well, much like the Legion we saw in the Lightning Saga, a new version of Pre-Crisis characters. And the end of Final Crisis is that most of the heroes of New Earth get killed or destroyed, leaving their dopplegangers, eg. Kyle Rayner, Arthur Curry/Aquaman, the new Atom, the new Blue Beetle, Renee Montoya/Question, the New Gods that appeared in Seven Soldiers, etc. the only ones left alive, left to deal with a devastated world. A world who's future deals with the "Last boy on Earth". Superman dies, Batman dies, Wonder Woman dies.

Do they "die" or do they wind-up "never existing" on this Earth, opening-up the possibility that they can be introduced later-on down the road?

Back in the 50s, they introduced a "new" Flash, GL, etc....without mention of the originals....until the came-up with the idea that the originals still existed on what was called Earth-2.

So, maybe...as you've stated...the "main" Earth ("Earth-1" for the sake of the argument) is the original pre-crisis Earth-1 with updated versions of the Silver Age Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Barry Allen as the Flash, Green Lantern as Hal Jordan, etc..., Earth-2 is the original pre-crisis Earth-2 with updated versions of the Golden age Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Jay Garrett as the Flash, Alan Scott as Green Lantern, etc.. and this "new" Earth is one in which Bart Allen is the Flash, Kyle Ranor is Green Lantern, and "new" modern day versions of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are introduced without all the history bogging those 3 characters down.

[the Hornet]

oh I truly hope not! I rather have Final Crisis continue with a drastically changed status quo but want to maintain the single continuity of JLA and JSA. Their history together is too much fun.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

If it honestly happens, I will drop most if not all my DC books.

I LIKE the current post-COIE continuity, and I DO NOT want it to be essentially destroyed.

[Buried Alien]

If it honestly happens, I will drop most if not all my DC books.

I LIKE the current post-COIE continuity, and I DO NOT want it to be essentially destroyed.

Coming from someone who hated to see the old Multiverse go back in 1985...

Payback is a dog of the female sex, isn't it? :evilsmile

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[MichaelMogg]

Meh, I guess I'm a cynic because I have a hard time buying into the whole "change" thing. At the end of the day there's still Supes, Bats, WW, Flash, GL, etc. That's the problem with 40 year (plus) old ongoing characters/series: they don't really shake things up.

That being said, I think the most important thing isn't the destination (since I think it's relatively the same), rather the journey. I just hope Final Crisis is -- at its core -- a really good story, period. :)

[Killer Frost]

Here's what I thought, what if the big reveal of Final Crisis is that Earth-1 is the Pre-Crisis DCU? Well, much like the Legion we saw in the Lightning Saga, a new version of Pre-Crisis characters. And the end of Final Crisis is that most of the heroes of New Earth get killed or destroyed, leaving their dopplegangers .....,Superman dies, Batman dies, Wonder Woman dies.
And the focus of the existing DC titles? They switch to Earth-1. Well, most of them.
It's not that odd an thought. I thought it too as soon as I heard the words "Final Crisis". DC has been reintroducing old Earth-1 elements for a coupla years now. Perhaps they'll go with the real deal when it's all over.

[Paul Newell]

Do they "die" or do they wind-up "never existing" on this Earth, opening-up the possibility that they can be introduced later-on down the road?

Back in the 50s, they introduced a "new" Flash, GL, etc....without mention of the originals....until the came-up with the idea that the originals still existed on what was called Earth-2.

So, maybe...as you've stated...the "main" Earth ("Earth-1" for the sake of the argument) is the original pre-crisis Earth-1 with updated versions of the Silver Age Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Barry Allen as the Flash, Green Lantern as Hal Jordan, etc..., Earth-2 is the original pre-crisis Earth-2 with updated versions of the Golden age Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Jay Garrett as the Flash, Alan Scott as Green Lantern, etc.. and this "new" Earth is one in which Bart Allen is the Flash, Kyle Ranor is Green Lantern, and "new" modern day versions of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are introduced without all the history bogging those 3 characters down.
I wass thinking just dead...But it could be a possibility.

[Paul Newell]

Meh, I guess I'm a cynic because I have a hard time buying into the whole "change" thing. At the end of the day there's still Supes, Bats, WW, Flash, GL, etc. That's the problem with 40 year (plus) old ongoing characters/series: they don't really shake things up.
That's the thing that struck me about the whole idea. The status quo remains the same, only...."freshened" I guess you could say.
That being said, I think the most important thing isn't the destination (since I think it's relatively the same), rather the journey. I just hope Final Crisis is -- at its core -- a really good story, period. :)
With the creative team they picked I'd say that's a very good chance. :)

[Paul Newell]

It's not that odd an thought. I thought it too as soon as I heard the words "Final Crisis". DC has been reintroducing old Earth-1 elements for a coupla years now. Perhaps they'll go with the real deal when it's all over.
One thing I forgot to mention was that, earlier, I had a similar thought about the Lightning Saga Legion. They had knowledge of the Final Crisis which made me think that they could possibly be the "real" Legion from after that event, replacing the Post-IC Legion in the time stream. I still think they're the Earth-1 Legion. At least, the new Earth-1 version...This idea just takes that hypothesis one step further.

[DarKye]

Possible spoilers ahead.



I doubt they will do anything this drastic, considering for instance, the fact that Green Lantern's mythology is meant to continue developing after Sinestro Wars, with another epic event coming up on 2009, according to Van Sciver.

Also, we can see a glimpse of the Final Crisis (week 104) in the preview at the end of Booster Gold, and we can see Booster alive AFTER the crisis. (week 136)
Sure, time is fluid and he could have traveled to the future first, but that would kind of give away what happened, wouldn't it?

Speaking of that preview, Booster speaks of the Justice League, but no member of the current JLA is there other than Batman... Did anyone else thought of Giffen's JLI?


Everything considered, it's a good theory. But I don't see the point of splitting heroes around different Earths.

[jv2k]

It would be a terrible move on DC's part. I mean DC has so much great continuity and a lot of stuff going on right now. It would really suck if they decided to just erase everything and started fresh.

No more Wally flash, Kyle, Nightwing, Tim Drake, all the younger gen titans, legacy characters, marriages, children, or deaths.

I wouldn't mind them opening earth one as an "Ultimate DC" type thing but to erase everything that has happened so far is a huge slap in the face for current fans.

If they want to replace the current continuity they need to at least give new earth a fitting end, and killing everyone off isn't it!

[Jeff O.]

I don't know what FINAL CRISIS will turn out to be now, since it is to be in continuity and has to be tied into the end of COUNTDOWN (and possibly lead into future projects after FINAL CRISIS). But since Morrison was willing to do it as an out-of-continuity story if DC wouldn't let him bring it into continuity, my initial speculation was that it would be truly the final crisis for Earth (or one of the Earths) -- and in many circles, that would mean the rise and fall of the Antichrist and then the Final Judgment. I'll bet the Spectre and Zauriel wouldn't expect anything bad or dangerous to happen once there was a FINAL new heaven and a new earth. Can a new earth be rebooted after the Final Judgment, only to have its souls start all over again? In Earth-Prime Christian lore, I'd say the answer was no. In DC lore, the Antichrist may have come many times in the futures of alternate earths which have since been reconstituted or rebooted, but we haven't seen his coming shown full-blown.

Maybe the spirit of the Antichrist would arise on alien worlds throughout the universe at the same time, in forms those planets would understand. In KINGDOM COME, there was much imagery from and allusions to the Book of Revelation, but there was no one literal Antichrist. UNDERWORLD UNLEASHED even had the demon named Neron (named, I believe, for Emperor Nero, whom some scholars point out as the ruler whose name had the number 666 during the early persecutions of the Church). Even if Neron likewise had the number 666, it wasn't the time for the world to end.

What would an Antichrist have to be like on an Earth which has a Superman going up against him? Anyway, that was my initial thought when I heard about this series. If it wasn't a story Morrison would have been willing to do as a stand-alone, out-of-continuity story rather than not do it at all, I wouldn't have expected an actual DC version of the Book of Revelation when I heard the name FINAL CRISIS.

[ADamiani]

There's been a lot of speculation about what Final Crisis will be and what it will mean to the DC Universe. There is even specualtion that it'll really be the end of the DCU or a complete reboot. Mentions of a "Great Disaster" keep popping up in various titles and Grant Morrison stated that Final Crisis ends with Kamandi.

I was struck by an odd thought the other night...They could actually do it. At least in such a way that the DCU continues, only not on "New Earth". Maybe this is the end of the DCU, at least for New Earth. The Great Disaster happens and all the major heroes are killed. We know from the lead up that the multiverse will be a big part of things, also we haven't seen hide nor hair of "Earth-1". It also seems like just about every DC hero has a doppleganger of some sort running around on New Earth these days.

Here's what I thought, what if the big reveal of Final Crisis is that Earth-1 is the Pre-Crisis DCU? Well, much like the Legion we saw in the Lightning Saga, a new version of Pre-Crisis characters. And the end of Final Crisis is that most of the heroes of New Earth get killed or destroyed, leaving their dopplegangers, eg. Kyle Rayner, Arthur Curry/Aquaman, the new Atom, the new Blue Beetle, Renee Montoya/Question, the New Gods that appeared in Seven Soldiers, etc. the only ones left alive, left to deal with a devastated world. A world who's future deals with the "Last boy on Earth". Superman dies, Batman dies, Wonder Woman dies.

And the focus of the existing DC titles? They switch to Earth-1. Well, most of them.

We have updated, Pre-Crisis versions back in the spotlight. Still hale and healthy, unlike their New Earth counterparts. A reboot....Only back to the "originals" and all their Pre-Crisis history.

No Justice Society, Charlton heroes, Marvel Family or Quality Heroes on this Earth, however...They have their own, as shown in 52.

A new status quo...And an old one.

Anyway, it was just an odd thought.

Nope, sorry. Not going to happen.

1) Crisis happened 22 years ago. A sizable fraction of their reading base wasn't even BORN then. The nostaliga exists, and it's real, but a large majority of readers don't even remember what the state of continuity was in 1986.

2) That was the hook in Infinite Crisis, right? Superman-- the original, true Superman, acting for the noblest of reasons-- is trying to restore HIS world, only it's not the one we've been reading. This was an awesome premise: the most archetypal of all superheroes attempts to destroy the world. It didn't quite live up to that potential, but the tension between love of the way things used to be and the way things are now was a pretty central element. The also remerged worlds again, in a way that could easily have restored a more pre-crisis status quo. They had their chance to do that, and they passed.

3) Heroes Reborn. Bad idea. Don't do it.

4) You have to remember just how incredibly DUMB elements of pre-crisis Earth were by modern standards. Planet-juggling Superman turning back time by spinning the Earth backwards stupid. Adam West era Batman corniness. They won't return that to continuity.

5) Can you imagine trying to tell a monthly story in that kind of an environment? "OK, everybody-- make a good book this month. Oh, and by the way, come January, we're erasing history, you may want to have all your loose ends tied up by then."

6) What little we know about their publishing plans doesn't support this idea.

7) Even if you clean them up (no planet-juggling, clean sensible reboot) you sacrifice the mythology you've spent decades building and the investment many fans have in the characters and the series. That's a big break, and it would cost them severely in the medium term.

I don't pretend to know what they're planning (or, god knows, WHY)-- nor what the outcome will look like thereafter-- but I'm reasonably certain party-like-its-1986 is not on the menu.

[Tahko Tetsujin]

I for one welcome our reboot overlords.

I would love to see them wipe the slate clean and start over. Period.

Personally I would think it awesome to see in the end of Final Crisis some crazy stuff happens as it usually does with the Crisis stuff then in the end of the book like the last 10 pages (yes ten) shows a frame to frame reversal of the entire DC universe from that moment to the very beginning and then a white page and then superman's capsule crashing outside of Smallville.

They know the formula that works, they can kill all the do overs and patch jobs that made the DC universe crazy and start over a pure genuine version of all the characters we remember.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm not as hardcore as most but a complete retelling would be great and interesting it would make me buy more comics to do a back to basics. Then they can build on that for the next fifty years until it's so mucked up that they have to do it again. We'd all be dead by then so why not?

[Paul Newell]

I don't pretend to know what they're planning (or, god knows, WHY)-- nor what the outcome will look like thereafter-- but I'm reasonably certain party-like-its-1986 is not on the menu.
Looks like you're right. There was this recently at Baltimore (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=128569):
Will we be seeing Earth-1 or any of its heroes in the next year? DiDio: “In the next year? No.”

As the end of Final Crisis happens in about 42 weeks, that rules out any appearance in the mini-series.

[Dark Ben]

Meh, I guess I'm a cynic because I have a hard time buying into the whole "change" thing. At the end of the day there's still Supes, Bats, WW, Flash, GL, etc. That's the problem with 40 year (plus) old ongoing characters/series: they don't really shake things up.


Hi pal, have you read about any comcis in the 90's ? it was the period when Dc and Marvel changed things for the sake of changing. All those you quote died at one point (minus batman who "just" had his spine broken). I've seen what it is to shake things up and I still wake up screaming in the middle of the night. Whoever I agree with you, it gegins to be ridiculous to heard of "changes of the century" when the statu quo is preserved