Geoff John's Green Lantern / What is your verdict so far ?

[sabongero]

Since Green Lantern Rebirth up to the recent Green Lantern storyline "Sinestro Corps War", what is your verdict on Geoff Johns's work on Green Lantern ? What are the pros and cons ?

[Cayman]

He's doing well, although the two Green Lantern Corps issues of Sinestro Corps have been better than the two Green Lantern issues.

[Jack Zodiac]

He writes some fun Green Lantern stuff, but he doesn't seem to get Hal very well. And the majority of his run so far has been more about setting things right that had been done in the past fifteen years back to restore the "Silver Age order," but very little in the way of real character development. His Hal Jordan's pretty one-dimensional.

I wouldn't mind seeing him take over Green Lantern Corps one day, though. He has some fresh ideas for the Green Lantern mythos that are both new and interesting, and build upon themes instead of deconstruct them and tear apart the old order to create something.

The best part of the series has been the art. Van Sciver and Ivan Reis are fine superhero artists.

[jv2k]

Best thing to ever happen to GL.

[Raker616]

Greatest GL writer maybe ever, Geoff gets Hal and what makes him a great character he respects the GL mythos and more importantly has taken Hal/GL to the next level. He has revamped and fixed most of the crap that DC had done to Hal and the GL mythos and has made the characters/foundations stronger. When he leaves GL it will be a sad day, I can't praise the job he has done enough because Hal/GL has never been better than he is now.

[Billage]

DC's best solo title and one of the best superhero books currently.

Without a doubt blowing away anything going on in Superman,Batman,WW or the Flash.

[Carter Hall]

Greatest GL writer maybe ever, Geoff gets Hal and what makes him a great character he respects the GL mythos and more importantly has taken Hal/GL to the next level. He has revamped and fixed most of the crap that DC had done to Hal and the GL mythos and has made the characters/foundations stronger. When he leaves GL it will be a sad day, I can't praise the job he has done enough because Hal/GL has never been better than he is now.

Man, I can't think of a better way to put it. I absolutely agree. His characterization has been awesome, his new ideas for the Green Lantern mythos seem so simple (you wonder why no one had thought of doing a Sinestro Corps before!) and yet inspired. He's had great artisits working with him, too (Van Sciver, Reis, and even Pacheco early on), and as a result has produced the best comic DC is putting out right now and one of the best in years, IMHO.

This to me may be the best Green Lantern stuff ever done, and certainly has been one of my favorite runs of any comic as long as I've been a comic book fan.

[Babylon23]

It's been a long, long time since a Hal Jordan-based comic has been this good. johns has restored GL to his rightful place in the upper echelon of the DCU.

[Joe Rice]

He's turned Hal into a cocky, macho Tom Cruise/Top Gun type, sacrificing everything that made him appealing. Rebirth was a wretched piece of continuity wank, and the series to come afterwards nearly unreadable.

[Jack Zodiac]

It's been a long, long time since a Hal Jordan-based comic has been this good. johns has restored GL to his rightful place in the upper echelon of the DCU.

DeMatteis' The Spectre was a pure Hal Jordan book. The circumstances for him even becoming The Spectre might be ridiculous, but once he got there, DeMatteis handled him well. He wasn't Green Lantern anymore, he was just Hal Jordan, which is why Green Lantern fans hated it and Spectre fans hated it even more. Might not have been perfect, but as a character piece, it was pretty damn good.

And if you want to read a Hal Jordan-based comic that isn't just good, but one of the best superhero comics ever written, read Cooke's New Frontier. Hal's practically the main character, and Darwyn might not be in love with typical spandex wearing superheroes, but he gets them more than most writers.

[Rattlehead]

Personally, I would have kept Hal Jordan dead and revamped the Corps with John Stewart being the focus. DC needs more organic ethnic characters, not just token people thrown into other people's suits. I've also always found John to be more interesting than Hal or Kyle. Be that as it may, Geoff made the very best out of the mandate that Hal had to come back, and managed to pull a good story out of it. Rebirth isn't great, but it's a solid piece of writing that served it's purpose. He got rid of all of the crap that had happened to the GL mythos since Emerald Twilight, and managed to at least have it make some sense in comic book reality. I applaud DC and Geoff for at least trying to make a story about it work, instead of just acting like all those stories in the 90's never happened, for better or worse.

As for the ongoing series, it's one of the best reads I have every month. I really don't care if Geoff isn't hitting on some characterization notes of Hal from 20 years ago, this Hal is a changed man. It's filled with adventure, the Star Sapphire arc was plain silly and fun, and the SC Corp storyline is shaping up rather well. Things have taken a while to get rolling, but I say it was definitely worth the wait. The artwork in this series has been absolutely stellar as well.

[caboose]

And if you want to read a Hal Jordan-based comic that isn't just good, but one of the best superhero comics ever written, read Cooke's New Frontier. Hal's practically the main character, and Darwyn might not be in love with typical spandex wearing superheroes, but he gets them more than most writers.

Couldn't agree more. New Frontier is the first thing I've read where Hal Jordan comes off as a remotely interesting character.

[Sean Walsh]

GREAT job. Just great, dang it.

The Star Sapphire story was a little slow, and I think the 1st or 2nd arc kinda slowed his pace down a bit.

But Rebirth and The Sinestro War combined just overshadow those insignificant complaints and make his run worthy of greatness.

[Ilash]

Simple version:

Rebirth - great
GL Pre-One Year Later - Good but a bit dull
GL Post-One Year Later - One of the best superhero comics month in and month out.

[Croatoan]

I totally agree with the people who mentioned New Frontier as the other place where you can get the "real" Hal Jordan outside of a book written by Geoff Johns, so far it's been amazing and frankly it took a lot of fixing and adding little details to make the GL mythos work IMO, for example I don't know how many of you remember that issue where the two rednecks steal Hal's ring and then create chainsaws and stuff like that, only GJ could get rid of those really stupid elements the title had and add things like only proven green lanterns having the chest symbol, how hard it is to use the rings,etc all that just make the concept richer.

So yeah it's been an amazing run and best Green Lantern writer ever (my 2nd one would be Alan Moore just for "Tygers" he didn't write the character that much, but all the stuff he did with the GL was amazing).

[Jack Zodiac]

Huh. It was stupid elements like that which kept Hal Jordan from being just a superhero. I think he's lost that since he was resurrected, even if he "flies without his ring."

[Croatoan]

Well. I don't know man, I guess to each their own. But for me his explanation that it takes a special person to wield the ring being one of the most powerful weapons of the galaxy it's the one that works, and in that old issue seeing Cletus and Billy Bob using a Green Lantern ring never made much sense and just killed it for me, of course I only saw something like that once, but things like that and with a few exceptions Green Lantern has been what it should be only when Geoff Johns started writing it, his development of the concepts is what makes it work. While i agree that it doesn't exactly set Hal apart from other heroes it just makes it a better read than previous versions.

[Jack Zodiac]

Cletus and Bob using the ring like morons is what illustrated why Hal's perfect as Green Lantern. With or without the ring, he's a hero, and more than capable. The ring only chose him because of that quality. Like I said, Geoff puts a lot more stock in the Green Lantern than he does in Hal Jordan.

[Sabrinaset]

He's turned Hal into a cocky, macho Tom Cruise/Top Gun type, sacrificing everything that made him appealing. Rebirth was a wretched piece of continuity wank, and the series to come afterwards nearly unreadable.

I bought a Green Lantern lot on eBay a few months ago, with issues ranging from 13? ... about 20 or so done by Kane ... to Englehart/Staton. I read them and have to honestly ask you ... what was it that made him appealing? Because I'm seeing just as much, if not more, appealing to me now.

I dunno what was so appealing about a test pilot who became a truck driver who became a pilot, an insurance investigator, a travelling toy salesman, pit bull supplier to Mickael Vick ... I mean, I look at it and while the stories were good, I could look at what Marvel was doing at that same time and find that Reed Richards, ben Grimm, and Peter Parker had more appeal in their pinkies than Hal had in his whole body.

Furthermore, Hal, who was part of an intergalactic armada ... well, that never really came out much, save in ret-cons. And here we have it ... Johns and Gibbons have managed to make Hal human, but they've also made him part of a para-military organization whose members don't always see eye-to-eye with Hal, or even the Guardians sometimes. Johns has made the Guardians from people who Catwoman could kick in their blue balls (and did) into presences who sit in judgement over the galaxy(s) while they figure out what to do next. In short, they actually ACT like a bunch or immortal Guardians, instead of munchkins who sit at a table where every Green Lantern can come up to them and say "Hi there!" About the only other person who could ... or did ...pull this off is Waid.

In short, Johns and Gibbons have re-created the GLC into something that actually LOOKS like a GLC probably might exist as if it did.

Although, I kinda admit ... Cowgirl does need some work.

[Jack Zodiac]

Yeah, you bought Green Lantern around a rocky time. It was turning into Green Lantern Corps around that time, and Englehart and Stanton treated them more like soldiers (understandable given the Cold War sentiments of their stories) than cops, which is what they originally reflected. Space cops.

The best Green Lantern is from the early Seventies, when O'Neil and Adams were on the book, and they started their "hard traveling heroes" stories where the most straight-cut authoritarian superhero was traveling the country with the craziest liberal to sport a goatee. I think the two of them did the most for Hal, and not a lot of people have captured that side of him since. But for some truly fun, straight up superhero stories, and where Hal gets his personality established, ya' gotta' check out the original Broome and Kane stories edited by the baddest ass in comics, Julie Schwartz.

I think the worst thing about the more recent Green Lantern stories (featuring Hal) is the loss of a solid supporting cast. No Carol, no Tom, a brief appearance by his brother in the first issue. It's just him and his ring in space with other Green Lanterns. And that'd be nice now and then if we didn't have a whole other book devoted to the Corps (of course, for the current crossover, it's understandable). What'd make the book truly great now is if Johns could establish a life for Hal outside of his job, bring back his brothers (although I think Jack died during DeMatteis' run on The Spectre), get a woman in his life (Carol, Cowgirl, someone solid), and keep him on Earth for more than fifteen minutes.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Truthfully, I'm enjoying the new supporting cast at Edwards Air Force Base a lot more than the old Ferris Air foils.

[Jack Zodiac]

How? They don't do anything. His C.O., maybe, but his wingmen? Even Cowgirl's a pretty undeveloped character and she's been in the series since issue one.

[Joe Rice]

I bought a Green Lantern lot on eBay a few months ago, with issues ranging from 13? ... about 20 or so done by Kane ... to Englehart/Staton. I read them and have to honestly ask you ... what was it that made him appealing? Because I'm seeing just as much, if not more, appealing to me now.

I dunno what was so appealing about a test pilot who became a truck driver who became a pilot, an insurance investigator, a travelling toy salesman, pit bull supplier to Mickael Vick ... I mean, I look at it and while the stories were good, I could look at what Marvel was doing at that same time and find that Reed Richards, ben Grimm, and Peter Parker had more appeal in their pinkies than Hal had in his whole body.

Furthermore, Hal, who was part of an intergalactic armada ... well, that never really came out much, save in ret-cons. And here we have it ... Johns and Gibbons have managed to make Hal human, but they've also made him part of a para-military organization whose members don't always see eye-to-eye with Hal, or even the Guardians sometimes. Johns has made the Guardians from people who Catwoman could kick in their blue balls (and did) into presences who sit in judgement over the galaxy(s) while they figure out what to do next. In short, they actually ACT like a bunch or immortal Guardians, instead of munchkins who sit at a table where every Green Lantern can come up to them and say "Hi there!" About the only other person who could ... or did ...pull this off is Waid.

In short, Johns and Gibbons have re-created the GLC into something that actually LOOKS like a GLC probably might exist as if it did.

Although, I kinda admit ... Cowgirl does need some work.


This that you describe all missed the point. As does "nerd playing alpha male" current version. Hal was basically the guys from the "Right Stuff" but with a magic ring that could do anything. All the bullshit added is, well, bullshit.

[jv2k]

This that you describe all missed the point. As does "nerd playing alpha male" current version. Hal was basically the guys from the "Right Stuff" but with a magic ring that could do anything. All the bullshit added is, well, bullshit.

Sounds like you are just nitpicking.

Also carol ferris is back again. Personally I like how Hal has been portrayed and made more human. Pre-rebirth hal was a mess because every other writer had a different job for him.

[Joe Rice]

Sounds like you are just nitpicking.


I'm not. Pre-rebirth Hal was a horrible mess. Post-rebirth (awful comic) Hal is just . . .not Hal. At all. He's a weird caricature of one person's idea of Hal.

[cactusmaac]

I was against bringing Hal back since I'm a Kyle guy and hadn't read anything featuring Hal that made me wish he was the numero uno GL again. The last couple of chapters of Rebirth made me waver, and the OYL arcs fully converted me into a Hal fan.

I've really enjoyed the work the Johns\Reis title so far. It's everything a superhero sci-fi\fantasy title should be.

[Zero Hunter]

I'm not. Pre-rebirth Hal was a horrible mess. Post-rebirth (awful comic) Hal is just . . .not Hal. At all. He's a weird caricature of one person's idea of Hal.

No its just not the Hal you like. The character has goen through a ton of stuff in recent years (not the least of which was being dead and then the Spectre) and to just have him acting like he did in the old days would be lazy writing. I think what Johns has done is try to have Hal act like he used to but even he knows his life has changed to much for it to ever be like that again even though he tries. As for bringing back the old cast I am glad they are not main parts of the book. To try to force them in to Hals life after all that has happened would be pretty awkeward.

[Jack Zodiac]

That's the thing, though. Change would be one thing, but Johns has done literally nothing new with Hal. Just old stuff in a new cardboard way. He's a hard-punchin' jet fighter who likes women and booze. Yay? Make him human, and get his ass out of space, before people notice there is no Hal Jordan, just Green Lantern.

[CBikle]

That's the thing, though. Change would be one thing, but Johns has done literally nothing new with Hal. Just old stuff in a new cardboard way. He's a hard-punchin' jet fighter who likes women and booze.

IMO, that is kind of new though. The pre-rebirth GL was pretty much all-business, juggling his responsibilities with the JLA, the GL Corps and whatever job he had at the time; you never really got the impression that he hung out with anyone for purely social reasons; the fact that he'll take the time to have a few beers with Cowgirl, Kilowog or Green Arrow either for personal pleasure or camraderie is a change from the old Hal, who was always "on duty".

[Jack Zodiac]

What? No. The old Hal was always about his friends and family. The new Hal is all about work. The only real characterization Johns has given the new Hal is reflective of the old Hal, but only in a cut and paste way. He made him a jet fighter who likes a stiff drink and a hot chick, and has a strange compulsion to punch people in the face when they give him lip. But without a good supporting cast, which this book lacks, being a sociable guy doesn't mean squat. So the book is about a Green Lantern instead of Hal Jordan, Green Lantern of Earth.

And what little personal stuff Johns has written into the series so far has been superficial and hollow. Nothing developmental. All told, entertaining stories about a jet pilot who moonlights as a space cop, but not a book about Hal Jordan.

[Raker616]

Leave the personal stuff to a prime time soap the thing about Hal is that he is himself with or without the ring and Geoff gets that. Hal isn't about deep contemplation and personal issues that is the last thing that I wanna read about. Hal is a Air Force Pilot, a superhero, a friend, and a ladies man and Geoff has explored all of these sides of him during the series and left the '90's crap go away and die.

[Jack Zodiac]

Nineties Green Lantern was the expulsion of all the things that made Hal himself. Geoff may have brought those ideas back, but he's yet to capture the thing about Hal Jordan that made him a more interesting character than a jet pilot/space cop. And a lot of those things revolved around his old supporting cast. Historically, removing a solid supporting cast from a title book results in a degradation of the title character themself. Without characters like Tom, Carol, and his brothers to play off of, he's just a one-dimensional charicature.

That's what Geoff's Hal Jodan is, a caricature.

[Raker616]

While I like Tom and Carol and they'll probably guest star in the future Hal needed a fresh start when he came back and that's what he's gotten. Most of the time he was dragged down by his supporting cast GL is about Hal dealing with his 2 jobs and getting re-aquainted with the world and Geoff has done a great job with that. Hal is finally acting like himself, he doesn't need anybody to play off of he is one of the only heroes that actually doesn't change when he is performing his superhero duties and Geoff gets that.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I haven't enjoyed the Green Lantern monthly this much since Steve Englehart & Joe Staton's run back when I was a kid. And that's just about the highest praise I can heap on a GL writer. Geoff Johns' Hal is cranked up to "11", yes, but at he understands the character better than any other writer outside of Darwyn Cooke. Given that so few writers seemed to understand who exactly Hal was for so many years, it makes sense that Johns would exaggerate Hal's personality a bit in order to firmly establish it with modern readers only familiar with James Owlsey's screw-up, Gerard Jones' hobo or Ron Marz's homocidal madman.

The fact that Johns' take has been so overwhelming successful with most fans is a good sign that we won't have to deal with wishy-washy mid-life crisis Hal any time soon.

[sabongero]

I stopped reading comic books in the mid to late 80s like around 1988.

Then around June 2006 I came across Green Lantern Rebirth. After 18 years, that particular book got me reading comic books again. I didn't even know they killed off Hal Jordan in the 90s. I immediately purchased the back issues ( #1 - #10 or #11 at the time ) of the volume 4. And since June 2006 after purchasing and being impressed by Geoff Johns's work on GL Rebirth, I have purchased about 2,000 comic books ang graphic novels from that point up to today. That's a lot and I have not even read more than half of these books. Only when I have time. Then I pass it on for my kids to enjoy when their big.

[Jack Zodiac]

Warm 'em up. Buy the Silver Age Green Lantern Archives books. Classic comics.

[Den]

My verdict is a resounding thumbs up! I like this take on Hal, because frankly, the square jawed man of action type hero may seem out of date, but he's a breath of fresh air compared to a lot of other superheroes in comics out there who seem to either dwell in indecisive anguish, or are almost as bad (or worse) than the villains they face.

Mind you, I wasn't crazy about the Star Sapphire bit (Didn't care for the guest artist on those, and the writing wasn't as good as some of the previous work Geoff has done) but for the most part I've enjoyed this Volume of the Green Lantern immensely.

[Starwolf_o]

I was reading the final issue of EMERALD DAWN II: 90 DAYS that covered the trial of Sinestro. Basically, Sinestro is put on trial for using his Green Lantern powers by stopping crime and chaos on Korugar by taking it over. Everyone there is too frightened to commit crimes. Hal isn't sure what to make of it, and he feels like he's sandbagging Sinestro.

Could it be that this is Hal Jordan's biggest fear? Becoming like Sinestro and deciding the best way to solve these problems is to take over and make the rules? It would explain why he was such a stickler for the rules, especially during Hard Travelin' Heroes.

It would be interesting to see that in an HTH Flashback. "Sure, I could fix things like racism, pollution and poverty, Ollie. In fact, Sinestro showed me how. All I have to do is use my power ring to CONQUER THE EARTH!!!"

Even when he's Parallax/the Specter, Hal's biggest justification was "I wanted to make things better and none of you understood that." Sounds a lot like Sinestro's justification: "I had to take over Korugar! They needed me!"

In a warped view of Spider-Man's motto "With great power comes great responsibility," Sinestro thought his responsibility was to take away the responsibility of others. And that's more or less what Parallax turned Hal Jordan into.

Agree? Disagree?

[Karl J Barnes]

I was reading the final issue of EMERALD DAWN II: 90 DAYS that covered the trial of Sinestro. Basically, Sinestro is put on trial for using his Green Lantern powers by stopping crime and chaos on Korugar by taking it over. Everyone there is too frightened to commit crimes. Hal isn't sure what to make of it, and he feels like he's sandbagging Sinestro.

Could it be that this is Hal Jordan's biggest fear? Becoming like Sinestro and deciding the best way to solve these problems is to take over and make the rules? It would explain why he was such a stickler for the rules, especially during Hard Travelin' Heroes.

It would be interesting to see that in an HTH Flashback. "Sure, I could fix things like racism, pollution and poverty, Ollie. In fact, Sinestro showed me how. All I have to do is use my power ring to CONQUER THE EARTH!!!"

Even when he's Parallax/the Specter, Hal's biggest justification was "I wanted to make things better and none of you understood that." Sounds a lot like Sinestro's justification: "I had to take over Korugar! They needed me!"

In a warped view of Spider-Man's motto "With great power comes great responsibility," Sinestro thought his responsibility was to take away the responsibility of others. And that's more or less what Parallax turned Hal Jordan into.

Agree? Disagree?

I agree. Parallax was Hal's fear of chaos/loss of control/being a hero. If there is one flaw for Hal is that he cares too much. He can't seem to let things go.

I'd also like to add that I might be one of the few people that actually liked Hal as the Specter. It was weird/fanciful and just a book that I couldn't tell were it was going. Which was scary and wonderful at the same time.

[Jack Zodiac]

I liked DeMatteis' The Spectre because it wasn't so much a story about The Wrath of God, but a story about Hal Jordan. He'd spent his life acting as a military pilot on Earth, and an officer of the law throughout the universe, so he was very much a follower of rules. He developed into a more liberal, free-thinking, non-conformist in both his personal and professional life thanks to his pal Ollie. He lost his city because he wasn't there for it and when the Guardians told him he couldn't do anything about it, he snapped; and apparently succumbed to his fear of losing self-control, which is when Parallax was born and the Guardians and the Corps were destroyed.

Hal Jordan, The Spectre, was a story of redemption, which is why it pissed off so many classic Spectre fans. He wasn't God's Wrath anymore. But how could he be when he was, for almost all of his life, a hero? He became God's Redemption, he killed, but he didn't torment; he freed the souls of the lost to be dealt with however God would decide for them. And he sought his own redemption for the things he'd done as Parallax.

When Johns brought him back, he swept a truly important part of Hal's life under the rug and replaced his own fallacy with something tangibly implicable, absolving Hal of a particularly horrible sin. And while I like the addition of something new to the mythos of the Green Lantern Corps, I feel like it was a mistake to rob Hal of something that could've been used to make his character stronger instead of falling back on pretty basic characterization.

[Karl J Barnes]

I liked DeMatteis' The Spectre because it wasn't so much a story about The Wrath of God, but a story about Hal Jordan. He'd spent his life acting as a military pilot on Earth, and an officer of the law throughout the universe, so he was very much a follower of rules. He developed into a more liberal, free-thinking, non-conformist in both his personal and professional life thanks to his pal Ollie. He lost his city because he wasn't there for it and when the Guardians told him he couldn't do anything about it, he snapped; and apparently succumbed to his fear of losing self-control, which is when Parallax was born and the Guardians and the Corps were destroyed.

Hal Jordan, The Spectre, was a story of redemption, which is why it pissed off so many classic Spectre fans. He wasn't God's Wrath anymore. But how could he be when he was, for almost all of his life, a hero? He became God's Redemption, he killed, but he didn't torment; he freed the souls of the lost to be dealt with however God would decide for them. And he sought his own redemption for the things he'd done as Parallax.

When Johns brought him back, he swept a truly important part of Hal's life under the rug and replaced his own fallacy with something tangibly implicable, absolving Hal of a particularly horrible sin. And while I like the addition of something new to the mythos of the Green Lantern Corps, I feel like it was a mistake to rob Hal of something that could've been used to make his character stronger instead of falling back on pretty basic characterization.

Yep. I think that Hal in this new incarnation has gotten off pretty lightly for his Parallax days, except with certain Lanterns. The old Hal would have been not so Gung-Ho with all his sins as he is with Johns. Little more soul searching is called for, I believe.

[Raker616]

Absolving Hal of his "sins" to me was a must I don't want him contemplating all the bad things he's done and dragging down the comic with all that drama. I wanted Hal to pick back up as a GL and go out and save the universe and have some great adventures with his GL buddies and other heroes which he has. Too many comics break down with the whoa is me attitude, and Hal isn't that type of hero he's a man of action not some emo poor me hero which was how he was written in the '90's and that it killed it for me.

[Babylon23]

When Johns brought him back, he swept a truly important part of Hal's life under the rug and replaced his own fallacy with something tangibly implicable, absolving Hal of a particularly horrible sin.

I likes DeMatteis' Spectre too. However, I think that absolving Hal of his sins was the only reasonable way to bring him back. As Parallex, he was responsible for a lot of death and destruction, something not easily to redeem without absolution. By absolving Hal, DC doesn't have to worry about bogging down the title with stories of redemption.

Plus, Johns came up with a reasonable way of explaining Hal's OOC actions during Emerald Twilight. He also kept Kyle alive, sane and ready to use by other writers, something Emerald Twilight didn't do for Hal.

[Alex L]

Plus, Johns came up with a reasonable way of explaining Hal's OOC actions during Emerald Twilight. He also kept Kyle alive, sane and readt to use by other writers, something Emerald Twilight didn't do for Hal.

Well, supposedly the mandate was to replace Hal as GL. There really is no way to introduce a brand-spanking new character as the Green Lantern and justify why Hal couldn't do it anymore, and why the role couldn't fall to Guy or John, and have everything else remain the same.

Parallax the Yellow Fear Monster was...well, not quite my cup of tea (since the word parallax helped describe what Jordan thought of himself) but Ion, the Willpower Whale, was even worse. That came even more out of left field than Parallax.

[Babylon23]

Well, supposedly the mandate was to replace Hal as GL. There really is no way to introduce a brand-spanking new character as the Green Lantern and justify why Hal couldn't do it anymore, and why the role couldn't fall to Guy or John, and have everything else remain the same.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking Marz. He did what he was asked to do. I just wish more thought had gone into the decision to replace Hal during the initial stages, so that a better reasoning behind his replacement could have been developed, preferably something that didn't involve Hal going insane and killing people.

Parallax the Yellow Fear Monster was...well, not quite my cup of tea (since the word parallax helped describe what Jordan thought of himself) but Ion, the Willpower Whale, was even worse. That came even more out of left field than Parallax.

I'm apparently one of the few people that has no problem with the the Parallax retcon. It's fits in with the sci-fi adventure nature of GL. In a book about an intergalactic police force of aliens using willpower-controlled rings and led by a race of super-intelligent alien midgets, I don't see anything wrong with a fear monster. It's no more ridiculous than a sentient planet, an anti-matter universe, intelligent chipmunks, or walking crystal men.

[Duy]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking Marz. He did what he was asked to do. I just wish more thought had gone into the decision to replace Hal during the initial stages, so that a better reasoning behind his replacement could have been developed, preferably something that didn't involve Hal going insane and killing people.



I'm apparently one of the few people that has no problem with the the Parallax retcon. It's fits in with the sci-fi adventure nature of GL. In a book about an intergalactic police force of aliens using willpower-controlled rings and led by a race of super-intelligent alien midgets, I don't see anything wrong with a fear monster. It's no more ridiculous than a sentient planet, an anti-matter universe, intelligent chipmunks, or walking crystal men.
I have no problem with it at all. Part of the fun of comics is the inherent silliness, and it's just fun to say the words "Yellow fear demon."

[Alex L]

I'm apparently one of the few people that has no problem with the the Parallax retcon. It's fits in with the sci-fi adventure nature of GL. In a book about an intergalactic police force of aliens using willpower-controlled rings and led by a race of super-intelligent alien midgets, I don't see anything wrong with a fear monster. It's no more ridiculous than a sentient planet, an anti-matter universe, intelligent chipmunks, or walking crystal men.

Excellent point. The thing I don't like about the Parallax-retcon is that it apparently is completely responsible for all of Evil-Hal's actions, thus absolving him of any blame. The only thing Hal's responsible for, apparently, is not finding it sooner.

And even having it be responsible for his gray hair -- as though gray hair is a fault, or as though some guys don't go gray early in their lives.

It's the little touches that make it over the top.

[jv2k]

More over the top than a space cop with a magic ring taking orders from little blue men who live in the center of the universe?

[Jack Zodiac]

Is there a sale on strawmen this week?

Even Johns would have to admit that blaming Hal's gray 'burns on a parasitic fear monster is a tad absurd.

[Raker616]

Well you have to first ask why Hal had grey hair in the first place?, one of the many new twists on Hal that IMO didn't work and needed to disapear quickly.

[Jack Zodiac]

Uh, he was in his late Forties, early Fifties? Why do Reed Richards and Dr. Strange have gray 'burns? They're older men.

[EZMOHR]

It's got me to like a character (Hal Jordan) I always hated.

[Raker616]

Uh, he was in his late Forties, early Fifties? Why do Reed Richards and Dr. Strange have gray 'burns? They're older men.

Hal was made to be older than other heroes for god knows why, one day he's in his 30's then he's in his late 40's WTF?. Again another thing that DC did to Hal that didn't work and needed to be fixed quickly IMO.

[Alex L]

Some men really do just go gray in their twenties and thirties.
Like how other men go bald. It doesn't only happen to old men.

With that in mind (or even without that in mind) how is gray hair a bad thing?
What is so wrong with a man having a bit of gray on his head, that it had to be specifically removed out?

[Jack Zodiac]

Uh, he was in his late Forties, early Fifties? Why do Reed Richards and Dr. Strange have gray 'burns? They're older men.

Hal was made to be older than other heroes for god knows why, one day he's in his 30's then he's in his late 40's WTF?. Again another thing that DC did to Hal that didn't work and needed to be fixed quickly IMO.

How didn't it work? It was superficial at most. He's an older guy. Hell, even Bruce Wayne's gotta' be in his Forties by now. Hal wasn't made older, he got older. It's one of those pesky things that happens when you're born and continue living. And one of its side effects is gray hair.

[Raker616]

Superheroes don't age and if they do they don't go from prime of their life to looking like their getting ready for retirement, hence why it didn't work.

[Jack Zodiac]

Specious at best, but hey, whatever keeps you from enjoying something, right?

[Raker616]

^ I love that you used the word specious on a mb it's quite impressive and i'm actually serious about that. Anyways I have nothing but bad memories from the last GL series, that's why things like Hal's grey hair bother me as much if the series wouldn've been good maybe I could've looked past it.

[bdk91939]

Forget 5 Stars. This series doesn't deserve 5 Stars. It deserves 5,000,000 STARS. Can you tell I am a Green Lantern fan. I love Geoff John's respect for the Green Lantern mythology and adding to it and expanding on long standing mythologies as well. Also, I liked the way that the Lost Lanterns did not let Hal off so easy. And bringing back Arisia ? Cowgirl ? and the divorce of Carrol Ferris ? Looks like Hal's going to have some girlfriend problems.

And the concept of the Sinestro Corps...all I can say is what a phenomenal concept. Now other writers can go on with those characters. And I have never seen such a stronger assembly of villains. Just having Superboy Prime and the Anti-Monitor on it makes it the most formidable combination of villains ever put together.

[Duy]

I think the whole idea of the Sinestro Corps is so obvious and it's dumbfounding that it took Geoff to think it up.

[CBikle]

Bruce Wayne's gotta' be in his Forties by now. Hal wasn't made older, he got older. It's one of those pesky things that happens when you're born and continue living. And one of its side effects is gray hair.

I don't think that'll ever happen for the bigger characters like Batman & GL; DC's "Sliding Scale" timeline will probably top off at 20 years with a max age of 38 (this way you can say Superman/Batman/etc. started when he was 18 and has been a superhero for 20 years from "today").

Currently, I think the scale is set at 12 years with most of the silver-age DCU being in their mid-30's.

[elena_fms_13]

I think hes doin a kick ass job with Hal. Hell read Rebirth if you think im being just "modest". As for the Sinestro corp war, well wat can compete with it rite now in the DCU? Countdown? Hell no! Amazons Attack? Hell no! those books have done/doing any thing for the current status quo and are boring as hell! Wat does Sinestro war have? The anti-moniter. Cyborg superman. Superman(boy?) Prime. Parallax. Sinestro him self as well as his corp. Really wat else would you want? Oh yeah and they are all wanting the multiverse. REALLY??
WTF ELSE???

[Ultimate Jim]

Couldn't agree more. New Frontier is the first thing I've read where Hal Jordan comes off as a remotely interesting character.

Couldn't agree more.

[davidestep]

One of the best books/storylines of the year.

[sabongero]

How does Geoff Johns' Sinestro War rank with the best Green Lantern stories of all time ?

[Alex L]

I'm gonna wait til it finishes to give it a star/lantern rating.

It's also hard for me to say, since I haven't read the Hard-Traveling Heroes storyline, that is a high point in the Green Lantern series

Hate to say it, but I don't think it's going to finish as epically as it could have. :(

[Laughing Mask]

anybody who thinks that Geoff Johns is doing a bad job with green lantern is dead inside.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

anybody who thinks that Geoff Johns is doing a bad job with green lantern is dead inside.

I'm dead inside and get no joy from Geoff Johns "Green Lantern". He should have stayed on Flash. Thats where he kicked ass at. Thus far I have gave him 24 issues and its had little to no flow at all.

[MutoMikey]

Putting aside the fact the Johns is my favorite writer, I think his work on Lantern is AWESOME. There hasn't been an issue yet I haven't truely enjoyed. I was a kid when Kyle was GL and Marz was writing. I grew up on that and had almost no experience reading Hal's adventures. But Geoff's made Hal one of my most favorite super-hero's ever! I feel like the Kyle books were a completely different hero.

Geoff's defined Green Lantern for me.

[sabongero]

I wonder if this title would suffer if Geoff Johns decides to depart from this series.

[Slaughter]

Sinestro Corps War was the story arc of the year. Sinestro Corps War is what World War Hulk wants to be when older! Kick-ass action, good characters, powerful enemies, well-pulled victories, GOOD drawing and almost no delays!

Johns' run is the best thing ever to happen to Green Lantern. Sure, Geoff has a Silver Age streak sometimes, but believe me, he's a genious. He set up the STORY OF THE YEAR. If The Blackest Night is even better, I think my brain will melt with so much thrilling action! Go GEOFF!!!!

EDIT: Also, Johns set the new DC crossover standard: Remember Didio's Interview? Didio perceived that Countdown to Final Crisis = Miserably failed and don't lived up 52's standards
Sinestro Corps War = Total sucess, only not selling even more due to low publicity instead of the Countdown mess.
So, Final Crisis will be more self-contained, like Sinestro Corps War, instead of a tie-in mess fest as Countdown. This represents a victory for us fans! With Grant Morrion at Final Crisis' helm and a more contained storyline, we're set!

[Jack Zodiac]

I wonder if this title would suffer if Geoff Johns decides to depart from this series.

It would, but not because of quality or creativity, just because of his name draw.

Sinestro Corps War was the story arc of the year. Sinestro Corps War is what World War Hulk wants to be when older! Kick-ass action, good characters, powerful enemies, well-pulled victories, GOOD drawing and almost no delays!

Johns' run is the best thing ever to happen to Green Lantern. Sure, Geoff has a Silver Age streak sometimes, but believe me, he's a genious. He set up the STORY OF THE YEAR. If The Blackest Night is even better, I think my brain will melt with so much thrilling action! Go GEOFF!!!!

I found World War Hulk and it's prelude, Planet Hulk to be a whole lot better than Johns' first two acts in the three-act Green Lantern epic. Mainly because of how much it impacted the title character itself, as oppose to how little Johns' stories have impacted Hal himself so far.

EDIT: Also, Johns set the new DC crossover standard: Remember Didio's Interview? Didio perceived that Countdown to Final Crisis = Miserably failed and don't lived up 52's standards
Sinestro Corps War = Total sucess, only not selling even more due to low publicity instead of the Countdown mess.
So, Final Crisis will be more self-contained, like Sinestro Corps War, instead of a tie-in mess fest as Countdown. This represents a victory for us fans! With Grant Morrion at Final Crisis' helm and a more contained storyline, we're set!

I don't know how much of a victory it is when it's yet another Crisis that'll "shake the foundations of the universe" or whatever. Another DC 1,000,000 or Seven Soldiers would've been better. Something huge and genius that evolves and builds upon a universe instead of tearing stuff down and destroying concepts for the same of something shiny and new that dulls quickly. Of course, Grant's writing it, so hopefully it won't be a letdown.

[Raker616]

I'm glad that Geoff is staying for a while longer but if he ever leaves the only writers that should get the job are Waid, Busiek, or Ross/Krueger they are the only ones that have the same respect and talent to do the book justice.

[Karl O'Neill]

This comic is class man,

Johns rules

[lazlo_toth]

He writes some fun Green Lantern stuff, but he doesn't seem to get Hal very well. And the majority of his run so far has been more about setting things right that had been done in the past fifteen years back to restore the "Silver Age order," but very little in the way of real character development. His Hal Jordan's pretty one-dimensional.

I wouldn't mind seeing him take over Green Lantern Corps one day, though. He has some fresh ideas for the Green Lantern mythos that are both new and interesting, and build upon themes instead of deconstruct them and tear apart the old order to create something.

The best part of the series has been the art. Van Sciver and Ivan Reis are fine superhero artists.

I agree with about 95% of what you're saying. I give him a free pass on depicting Hal so far, because he's done such a good job of repairing the GL mythos that I haven't really had time to notice that Hal's been pretty scantily fleshed-out so far. I'm really too busy saying HOLY SHIT! every issue. When Kyle Rayner was brought in, my biggest complaint (even more than making Hal go Psycho, which believe me I did NOT like one bit) was destroying the entire GL Corps; some of the greatest GL stories were ones written about weird alien GLs in other sectors. Not only is that all back but Johns has found a way to keep John Stewart, Guy Gardner, and Kyle Rayner all on board. Each of them brings something unique to the table.

The Sinestro Corps is also the single greatest idea anybody has ever come up with for the GL mythos in my lifetime. It borders on brilliant, and in hindsight I'm amazed that nobody ever thought of this years ago.

Green Lantern is one of the few titles anywhere that I'm consistently excited about and eager to see what happens next. So it's safe to assume I'm very high on Geoff Johns right now.

[lazlo_toth]

I don't know how much of a victory it is when it's yet another Crisis that'll "shake the foundations of the universe" or whatever. Another DC 1,000,000 or Seven Soldiers would've been better. Something huge and genius that evolves and builds upon a universe instead of tearing stuff down and destroying concepts for the same of something shiny and new that dulls quickly. Of course, Grant's writing it, so hopefully it won't be a letdown.

Morrison's ideas tend to be expansive rather than contractive. DC was pretty doggedly opposed to going anywhere near parallel worlds post-crisis unitl Morrison came up with his whole "Hypertime" concept. The biggest worry you could have is that you might get a bunch of readers who go "Huh?" when something really mind-numbing goes down, but I'll take Grant Morrison's hyper-dense clusters of ideas and craziness any day over Brian Michael Bendis taking three issues to get Daredevil out of bed in the morning, outstanding though his dialogue may be. Don't get me wrong, I still read Bendis's stuff and like it, but I like Morrison's approach much better.

I just wish he'd do ONE Legion story. He doesn't even have to take over as the regular writer, just write ONE story, and work some of his chaos magic on all the fantastic concepts and facets of the Legion mythos that nobody else has ever picked up on...

[Jack Zodiac]

Morrison's ideas tend to be expansive rather than contractive. DC was pretty doggedly opposed to going anywhere near parallel worlds post-crisis unitl Morrison came up with his whole "Hypertime" concept. The biggest worry you could have is that you might get a bunch of readers who go "Huh?" when something really mind-numbing goes down, but I'll take Grant Morrison's hyper-dense clusters of ideas and craziness any day over Brian Michael Bendis taking three issues to get Daredevil out of bed in the morning, outstanding though his dialogue may be. Don't get me wrong, I still read Bendis's stuff and like it, but I like Morrison's approach much better.

I just wish he'd do ONE Legion story. He doesn't even have to take over as the regular writer, just write ONE story, and work some of his chaos magic on all the fantastic concepts and facets of the Legion mythos that nobody else has ever picked up on...

Yeah, that's why I'm slightly optimistic about Final Crisis. Grant masterminded two of the best events in recent DC history, one of which kicked open a door to a whole !@#$in' world of ideas that no one's made any use of yet, which is sad. But the only thing that's keeping me even kind of interesting in what's going on up until Final Crisis is knowing that Morrison's involved in it.

[lazlo_toth]

Yeah, that's why I'm slightly optimistic about Final Crisis. Grant masterminded two of the best events in recent DC history, one of which kicked open a door to a whole !@#$in' world of ideas that no one's made any use of yet, which is sad. But the only thing that's keeping me even kind of interesting in what's going on up until Final Crisis is knowing that Morrison's involved in it.

Preaching to the choir, my friend. It depressed me when I reflect on the sheer quantity of story ideas that he tossed out during his run on X-Men that Marvel never followed up on. I won't even go into how they've glossed over the whole "Weapon X is really Weapon Ten" plotline, which I thought was a little bit on the earth-shaking side in terms of revelations, and given how Wolverine appears in every issue of every Marvel comic seemingly without exception, you'd think they'd do something with it. The guy's just working on a higher intellectual plane than everybody else in the industry.

[david r]

Morrison's ideas tend to be expansive rather than contractive. DC was pretty doggedly opposed to going anywhere near parallel worlds post-crisis unitl Morrison came up with his whole "Hypertime" concept.

Actually, Mark Waid came up with "Hypertime" like 10 years ago. But I like your thoughts.

The biggest worry you could have is that you might get a bunch of readers who go "Huh?" when something really mind-numbing goes down, but I'll take Grant Morrison's hyper-dense clusters of ideas and craziness any day over Brian Michael Bendis taking three issues to get Daredevil out of bed in the morning, outstanding though his dialogue may be. Don't get me wrong, I still read Bendis's stuff and like it, but I like Morrison's approach much better.

Grant Morrison makes Bendis look like a 1st grader.

[david r]

I'm glad that Geoff is staying for a while longer but if he ever leaves the only writers that should get the job are Waid, Busiek, or Ross/Krueger they are the only ones that have the same respect and talent to do the book justice.

I believe Geoff Johns has said he's staying until #55. So there is a lot of Green Lantern left for Johns.

I'm getting the impression here that Geoff Johns is the new God of Comics!

[Jack Zodiac]

Actually, Mark Waid came up with "Hypertime" like 10 years ago. But I like your thoughts.

By most accounts I've heard, Grant and Mark developed the idea together to continue telling multiversal tales, and Mark implemented it first in The Kingdom.

[Superbeast]

Grant Morrison makes Bendis look like a 1st grader.

If Bendis ever writes anything on par with Morrison's Animal Man run or the Brotherhood of Dada arc of Doom Patrol, I'll eat a chimp's crap for a week.

[Jack Zodiac]

Bendis has written some great stuff. Torso, Fortune and Glory, his early issues of Alias and Daredevil, but like a lot of writers who reach "golden boy" status, his work falters the more he gets and the more attention and exposure he receives.

[Raker616]

I really don't get why Bendis has any fans, I tried reading New Avengers and i'm still waiting for something big to happen.

[Jack Zodiac]

You're gonna be waiting for a while. That book's been teetering on the edge of being just a set-up title since it was launched.

[jadrax]

I really don't get why Bendis has any fans, I tried reading New Avengers and i'm still waiting for something big to happen.

He does some books very well, powers *was* fantastic when he put effort into it, Alias was good, Daredevil was better than good and Ultimate Spider-Man is perhaps one of the most solid runs on a single title ever.

Basically street level stuff he is very very good at... High Power Superhero teams and big events... not so much.

[lazlo_toth]

Grant Morrison makes Bendis look like a 1st grader.


That's a little harsh. Bendis can annoy the hell out of me sometimes, but I will give him props. He may be the best writer of dialogue I've ever seen in comics, period. Having said that, I constantly feel like I haven't gotten my money's worth when I read his books. If I wait 30 days for a book to come out, pay $3 for it, and have to wait 30 more days for the next installment, I expect something to happen. I expect it to take longer than 2-3 minutes to read it from beginning to end. In that respect, Bendis consistently fails to deliver, and worse than that, because his books sell, other writers are aping his style. If he could just condense things a little he'd be one of my favorites.

But even if he did, he still wouldn't be able to cram all of the hyperkinetic ideas and allusions into his stories as Morrison does. At his best, Bendis makes it feel like you're watching a very good noir movie. Morrison at his best makes you feel like you're on acid, only no bad trips, no flashbacks, no impaired motor control, just heightened sensory input and the feeling like you've spent your whole life in mono and now for the first time everything is in stereo.

[Karl O'Neill]

I believe Geoff Johns has said he's staying until #55. So there is a lot of Green Lantern left for Johns.

I'm getting the impression here that Geoff Johns is the new God of Comics!

he has it scripted out till #55.

he could stay on longer.

[Mr Omnis]

DeMatteis' The Spectre was a pure Hal Jordan book. The circumstances for him even becoming The Spectre might be ridiculous, but once he got there, DeMatteis handled him well. He wasn't Green Lantern anymore, he was just Hal Jordan, which is why Green Lantern fans hated it and Spectre fans hated it even more. Might not have been perfect, but as a character piece, it was pretty damn good.

If you just look at it pre-Rebirth, him turning into Spectre was completely ridiculous. Of course, Day of Judgment itself was ridiculous.

I really think he was a terrible Spectre, but you're right--taken as just Hal Jordan, and Hal's desperate quest to redeem himself--it's a nice piece. The related issues of JSA and all of those really help cement that.

But, with regards to Johns and the GL book, I really like it. I can't wait to see where it goes after the Corps Wars.

[Jack Zodiac]

If you just look at it pre-Rebirth, him turning into Spectre was completely ridiculous. Of course, Day of Judgment itself was ridiculous.

I really think he was a terrible Spectre, but you're right--taken as just Hal Jordan, and Hal's desperate quest to redeem himself--it's a nice piece. The related issues of JSA and all of those really help cement that.

Yeah, he made a horrible Spectre, which is why I think DeMatteis didn't even attempt to write him into that role. He changed the role to fit the character, and I think he told an even better story because of it.

[Mr Omnis]

Yeah, he made a horrible Spectre, which is why I think DeMatteis didn't even attempt to write him into that role. He changed the role to fit the character, and I think he told an even better story because of it.

While it's my least favorite of the Spectre things, I do love Hal's conflicts with the wrath and all that. The Phantom Stranger babysitting is just too silly. Johns use of The Spectre in Rebirth made it much more tolerable, and helped justify such an odd title.

Is DeMatteis' stuff even canon anymore? I've never really been sure after reading some of the stuff Sinestro said in Rebirth.

[Jack Zodiac]

I feel exactly the opposite. I don't think Johns had any need or right to "justify" anything about Hal being The Spectre. Him being chosen to serve God to redeem himself was a stretch and a desperate grab to keep the character around and try to settle his fans down, but instead of betraying the character of Hal Jordan himself and turning him into God's Wrath, he bent The Spectre's character to Hal Jordan's will and turned him into God's Redemption and set a whole, new metaphysical scene for both characters, Hal Jordan and The Spectre. Much more interesting than another take on a character recently perfected by John Ostrander.

And I'm sure it isn't canon anymore since a) nobody read it and b) some of the events of the series contradict the current status quo of Hal's existence. Probably the only thing left of it is the fact that Hal was The Spectre for a little while, since as The Spectre he was responsible for a couple of key things, like Ollie coming back from the dead and Wally's secret identity being restored.

[Mr Omnis]

I feel exactly the opposite. I don't think Johns had any need or right to "justify" anything about Hal being The Spectre. Him being chosen to serve God to redeem himself was a stretch and a desperate grab to keep the character around and try to settle his fans down, but instead of betraying the character of Hal Jordan himself and turning him into God's Wrath, he bent The Spectre's character to Hal Jordan's will and turned him into God's Redemption and set a whole, new metaphysical scene for both characters, Hal Jordan and The Spectre. Much more interesting than another take on a character recently perfected by John Ostrander.

I don't think he needed to justify him being The Spectre, I'm just saying that Rebirth did make the justification better than "As punishment, I'm gonna--!" which is really all that happened in Judgment. I agree that it was a stretch, and everything else. But at the same time I didn't actually start READING comics until 2005, so I'm looking at everything with hindsight. I also think that, while Green Lantern is a great series, Hal should be dead.

And I'm sure it isn't canon anymore since a) nobody read it and b) some of the events of the series contradict the current status quo of Hal's existence. Probably the only thing left of it is the fact that Hal was The Spectre for a little while, since as The Spectre he was responsible for a couple of key things, like Ollie coming back from the dead and Wally's secret identity being restored.

There's also the part in Identity Crisis with Ollie and Hal. I would agree with you on that--he was the Spectre, did a few things, but the series isn't really canon anymore.

I recall seeing one issue where Sinestro was "brought back from the dead" or some such thing--which is obviously a contradiction to the currents status quo.

And the multiple-Spectre concept was odd.

[Jack Zodiac]

Not when you think about it as Hal controlling The Spectre instead of, as with Jim Corrigan, The Spectre controlling him. That's why it was a purely Hal Jordan story with a metaphysical backdrop. His will, being the strongest thing about his character, bent the embodiment of Wrath into one of Redemption, and then he continued to use his will to make being The Spectre more comfortable, which is why he created his own "corps" of Spectres to redeem souls across every inch of the universe and every dimension in-between. It's real high-concept stuff that no one gave a crap about because it wasn't their Spectre or their Green Lantern, it was just Hal Jordan.

And like I keep saying, no one really gives a crap about Hal Jordan, they just want his familiar face in the Green Lantern mask doing the same old crap anyone besides him could do.

[Mr Omnis]

Not when you think about it as Hal controlling The Spectre instead of, as with Jim Corrigan, The Spectre controlling him. That's why it was a purely Hal Jordan story with a metaphysical backdrop. His will, being the strongest thing about his character, bent the embodiment of Wrath into one of Redemption, and then he continued to use his will to make being The Spectre more comfortable, which is why he created his own "corps" of Spectres to redeem souls across every inch of the universe and every dimension in-between. It's real high-concept stuff that no one gave a crap about because it wasn't their Spectre or their Green Lantern, it was just Hal Jordan.

I never really got the impression that Jim was controlled by The Spectre--they seemed to exist more as partners in the early stuff. Then with Ostrander, there were times when The Spectre kind of overwrote Jim's desires and whatnot, but Jim seemed to have a firm hold on just what The Spectre was. Probably to be expected from working with him for fifty years.

You make sense, of course. Though, really, I liked the stories involving Hal-Spectre that were outside of the series. They seemed...I dunno...better, somehow. Like the bits in JSA.

And like I keep saying, no one really gives a crap about Hal Jordan, they just want his familiar face in the Green Lantern mask doing the same old crap anyone besides him could do.

Yeah, basically. I think I really need to reread this series.

[stealthwise]

Bendis has written some great stuff. Torso, Fortune and Glory, his early issues of Alias and Daredevil, but like a lot of writers who reach "golden boy" status, his work falters the more he gets and the more attention and exposure he receives.

Not ALL of Alias? Seriously, I think that his earliest issues on that book were the weakest, and that final arc with Jessica's origins and the Purple Man was his masterwork.

[Jack Zodiac]

I never really got the impression that Jim was controlled by The Spectre--they seemed to exist more as partners in the early stuff. Then with Ostrander, there were times when The Spectre kind of overwrote Jim's desires and whatnot, but Jim seemed to have a firm hold on just what The Spectre was. Probably to be expected from working with him for fifty years.

Yeah, with the original Spectre, it was more of a partnership and then, under John's pen, a dichotomy between the characters (which seems to be the way people tend to write him when he has a host, now, like with Cris Allen). But while Hal was The Spectre, DeMatteis only wrote Hal and used The Spectre's typical setting as the backdrop

You make sense, of course. Though, really, I liked the stories involving Hal-Spectre that were outside of the series. They seemed...I dunno...better, somehow. Like the bits in JSA.

Eh, I thought it was sort of contrived when he appeared in anything but his own series, except for the couple issues of JSA where he showed up to fight the imps and the King. But in The Flash and Supergirl, although the latter proved the better story, it just seemed unnecessary and a means to an end that didn't fit his character well. They were situations that called for The Spectre, sure, but not Hal Jordan, but under the circumstances ya' had to take what you could get.

Yeah, basically. I think I really need to reread this series.

I think anyone who claims to be a fan of Hal Jordan and not just the Green Lantern should, too.

Not ALL of Alias? Seriously, I think that his earliest issues on that book were the weakest, and that final arc with Jessica's origins and the Purple Man was his masterwork.

I liked his character work with her in the beginning, and yeah, the final story arc before it was canceled was great, but most of the book was kind of forgettable. Just like everything he's done with her since...

[Rattlehead]

And like I keep saying, no one really gives a crap about Hal Jordan, they just want his familiar face in the Green Lantern mask doing the same old crap anyone besides him could do.

It's a marketing thing more than anything else. Since retro comic book T-shirts from the 70's are fashionable now, just about all of the Green Lantern ones feature Hal Jordan, so he kind of needs to not be dead for that stuff. Yeah it's crappy and stupid, but that stuff makes more money than the comic books do.

[IRONY...]

Just great and the stories are very original unlike his Titans run...

[Mr Omnis]

Yeah, with the original Spectre, it was more of a partnership and then, under John's pen, a dichotomy between the characters (which seems to be the way people tend to write him when he has a host, now, like with Cris Allen). But while Hal was The Spectre, DeMatteis only wrote Hal and used The Spectre's typical setting as the backdrop

Crispus is an interesting take, and I wish they would use him more. I'm not a fan of the "No one can see him" aspect, since every other Spectre (even Hal) could be seen. I'm chalking that up to, like Shazam, the rules of magic being rewritten until someone explains it to me.

I can't really add anything else with regards to a reply, since I agree with most of it.

Eh, I thought it was sort of contrived when he appeared in anything but his own series, except for the couple issues of JSA where he showed up to fight the imps and the King. But in The Flash and Supergirl, although the latter proved the better story, it just seemed unnecessary and a means to an end that didn't fit his character well. They were situations that called for The Spectre, sure, but not Hal Jordan, but under the circumstances ya' had to take what you could get.

I've only read the appearances in JLA and JSA. The JLA thing actually focused, at least a little bit, on how no one recognized him as Hal anymore. I thought that was an interesting touch.

That I fell in love with the JSA book only made having the Hal-Spectre much more fun. Especially how casual Alan Scott was.

I think anyone who claims to be a fan of Hal Jordan and not just the Green Lantern should, too.

I'm a Spectre fan, first and foremost. I read about The Spectre, found the comics, read them, and then spent an ungodly amount of money to actually own them. I just wish they'd collect the rest of the Golden-Age and the Silver-Age stuff. Comics from the 70s are damn fragile.

But, I do like Hal--it's complicated.

[reta-winter soldier]

I'll agree that theyre hasnt been that much hal moments in the series, but i mean john's has been rebuilding hal from the ground up to be the hero he used to be. Maybe he's been a bit slow on it but I've really liked it. I definetly expect some more Hal but I woudnt say that he's just there.

I have really loved this run and hope for black night, for us hal fans come on we got a kick ass story johns deserves a little patience

[Raker616]

The Spectre run was forgettable at best, the main problem was that it was an iconic superhero possing as another hero it never worked. It's like making Bruce Wayne the Spectre no matter how good the book may be it's Batman as The Spectre same problem with Hal as The Spectre.

[Jack Zodiac]

No, the problem was that nobody wanted to read about Hal Jordan, they wanted to read about Green Lantern. Like now, nobody really gives a crap if Hal Jordan is the Green Lantern, because nothing he's doing right now couldn't be done with any other character in the same costume. DeMatteis' The Spectre wasn't about The Wrath of God or Green Lantern, it was about Hal Jordan, and it's a pretty solid testament to how much people actually cared about the character himself that the book sold for crap.

[Ian J.N.]

No, the problem was that nobody wanted to read about Hal Jordan, they wanted to read about Green Lantern. Like now, nobody really gives a crap if Hal Jordan is the Green Lantern, because nothing he's doing right now couldn't be done with any other character in the same costume. DeMatteis' The Spectre wasn't about The Wrath of God or Green Lantern, it was about Hal Jordan, and it's a pretty solid testament to how much people actually cared about the character himself that the book sold for crap.
Oh man, that's a whole lotta horse crap. People wanted to read about Hal Jordan, the character, which consists of a whole cognitive network of associations--Green Lanterns and test pilots and Coast City and fearlessness and talk-with-your-fists heroism and stories of spacefaring action/adventure.

To successfully write an established character is to build off of those associations, which Geoff Johns does admirably and J.M. DeMatteis did miserably. For example, Hal's love interest in Green Lantern is Cowgirl, a hot, adrenaline-seeking, blonde pilot. Hal's love interest in The Spectre was Materna Minxx, a cosmic, philosophy-spouting Mary Poppins. Both were a new type of love interest for Hal and neither have anything to do with Green Lantern (the superhero), but Cowgirl speaks a lot more to Hal Jordan as a character. "Search your feelings, you know it to be true."

[Jack Zodiac]

Oh man, that's a whole lotta horse crap. People wanted to read about Hal Jordan, the character, which consists of a whole cognitive network of associations--Green Lanterns and test pilots and Coast City and fearlessness and talk-with-your-fists heroism and stories of spacefaring action/adventure.

To successfully write an established character is to build off of those associations, which Geoff Johns does admirably and J.M. DeMatteis did miserably. For example, Hal's love interest in Green Lantern is Cowgirl, a hot, adrenaline-seeking, blonde pilot. Hal's love interest in The Spectre was Materna Minxx, a cosmic, philosophy-spouting Mary Poppins. Both were a new type of love interest for Hal and neither have anything to do with Green Lantern (the superhero), but Cowgirl speaks a lot more to Hal Jordan as a character. "Search your feelings, you know it to be true."

That's the same mindless slavering over the bare bones characterization of Hal Jordan everyone else who praises the way Johns is writing him spouts. That isn't Hal Jordan, that's the superficial surface of Hal Jordan. Beneath the "hard fighting, hard !@#$ing" exterior is the family man who took his dead brother's daughter under his wing, the devoted friend who managed to meet and help his predecessor even after his death, and the compassionate will who took God's Wrath and turned it into God's Redemption and then used that gift to help not just Earth, but the Universe and dimensions in between as a whole new Spectre.

See that? Layers. Layers upon layers, instead of one thin sheen of character. But nobody gives a crap, they just want to see a guy in a Green Lantern suit punching stuff and !@#$ing hot blondes.

[Captain Mobra]

Can't it be both?

[Jack Zodiac]

Can't it be both?

Can't what be both? The book be bad and good, or Green Lantern be Hal Jordan and any ol' body who likes to punch people and !@#$?

[CBikle]

I kind of liked the idea of Hal as the Spectre, but wasn't too happy with DeMatteis work on it.

The Jordan-Spectre idea really had potential and I would have liked to see some sort of Spectre-Green Lantern type blend doing more with both their rogue's galleries and supporting characters.

[Raker616]

A Green Lantern who punches people and bangs hot blondes...sounds like Hal Jordan to me.

[Jack Zodiac]

I kind of liked the idea of Hal as the Spectre, but wasn't too happy with DeMatteis work on it.

The Jordan-Spectre idea really had potential and I would have liked to see some sort of Spectre-Green Lantern type blend doing more with both their rogue's galleries and supporting characters.

There was. Sinestro's spirit survived and faced off against Hal as The Spectre, and Hal's older brother and niece were both supporting characters, as was Abin Sur. And then there was the whole "Spectre Corps" idea. It was a fine blend of elements from Hal's days as Green Lantern without making it appear that he was just living his afterlife like he was still Green Lantern and metaphysical ideas like Ostrander's days with Corrigan.

But they didn't play that up as much, and I'm glad they didn't, because it would've been a complete waste of time. Hal wasn't Green Lantern anymore and The Spectre wasn't God's Wrath anymore. He was Hal Jordan, and all the things about him that made him Hal Jordan trickled through into The Spectre, making the metaphysical landscape of the typical Spectre adventures different and more suited to his character, hence the Spirit of Redemption angle.

A Green Lantern who punches people and bangs hot blondes...sounds like Hal Jordan to me.

Of course it does.

[Ian J.N.]

That's the same mindless slavering over the bare bones characterization of Hal Jordan everyone else who praises the way Johns is writing him spouts. That isn't Hal Jordan, that's the superficial surface of Hal Jordan. Beneath the "hard fighting, hard !@#$ing" exterior is the family man who took his dead brother's daughter under his wing, the devoted friend who managed to meet and help his predecessor even after his death, and the compassionate will who took God's Wrath and turned it into God's Redemption and then used that gift to help not just Earth, but the Universe and dimensions in between as a whole new Spectre.

See that? Layers. Layers upon layers, instead of one thin sheen of character. But nobody gives a crap, they just want to see a guy in a Green Lantern suit punching stuff and !@#$ing hot blondes.
First, escapism is !@#$ing awesome and I've never understood why it's a sin to be entertained by entertaining entertainment.

Second, I disagree that Green Lantern is two-dimensional. The title has touched on Hal's friends, family, career, and love life--all the major components to what we call a life. Perhaps it's his personality that disagrees with you, but there are womanizing alpha males in this world. You may consider them shallow, but that's not a literary criticism. Furthermore, we've seen the negative aspects to Hal's machismo--from multiple fronts in Wanted: Hal Jordan, for example--so it's not as if this title is all about Hal schtumpfing hot babes.

Third, depth of characterization has NOTHING to do with a character's definition. If you take James Joyce's Ulysses and replace every instance of "Leopold Bloom" with "Hal Jordan," you will not have the greatest Hal Jordan story ever written.

A character, rather, is defined by its associations. Name, visual appearance, history, personality, strengths and weaknesses, relationships, themes, and genre--those are the major categories, and in almost all of them, DeMatteis' Spectre was at odds with the established (and expected) norm, superficially related at best. To say that fans just wanted "to see a guy in a Green Lantern suit" is simplistic. DeMatteis' interpretation, in fact, was the least "Hal Jordan" interpretation that has ever been written. Hal Jordan fans wanted a more Hal Jordan-like character. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I might also point out that Hal Jordan fans on their own cannot make or break a title, so perhaps there were other difficulties.

I would argue that it's DeMatteis' Hal (and not Johns') that is the interchangeable character. If you can shoehorn an action-oriented space hero into being an introspective spirit guide, you can do it with any character. In my opinion, the title would have been a lot better had DeMatteis been allowed to create a new character for his unique interpretation. A death row inmate, for example, would have better suited the redemption theme.

[Jack Zodiac]

First, escapism is !@#$ing awesome and I've never understood why it's a sin to be entertained by entertaining entertainment.

Escapism is fine, and I've found Geoff Johns entire run entertaining, which is why I bother reading it, but it's a book that could be told with any character, not just Hal Jordan, because...

Second, I disagree that Green Lantern is two-dimensional. The title has touched on Hal's friends, family, career, and love life--all the major components to what we call a life. Perhaps it's his personality that disagrees with you, but there are womanizing alpha males in this world. You may consider them shallow, but that's not a literary criticism. Furthermore, we've seen the negative aspects to Hal's machismo--from multiple fronts in Wanted: Hal Jordan, for example--so it's not as if this title is all about Hal schtumpfing hot babes.

...the title has done practically nothing about his personal life besides mentioning that it still exists in some capacity. For almost two years, we've seen nothing about his life outside of his job as Green Lantern. Sure, he had a new job and new boss, new friends and a new love interest, but outside of three out of twenty-six issues, we've seen zero done with that. His brother only just recently came back into his life, along with Carol and Tom, but again, twenty-six issues and barely anything done with them besides the nod that, "yep, there still there."

And considering Johns' half-assed handling of an already established character by only writing him as a "womanizing alpha male," which is half-backwards in regards to his character anyway, yes, I do consider that a valid criticism.

Third, depth of characterization has NOTHING to do with a character's definition. If you take James Joyce's Ulysses and replace every instance of "Leopold Bloom" with "Hal Jordan," you will not have the greatest Hal Jordan story ever written.

Of course not, because Hal isn't that introspective and banal a character, but if you replaced, say... James Bond in On Her Majesty's Secret Service or You Only Live Twice with Hal Jordan, you'd have a great Hal Jordan story.

A character, rather, is defined by its associations. Name, visual appearance, history, personality, strengths and weaknesses, relationships, themes, and genre--those are the major categories, and in almost all of them, DeMatteis' Spectre was at odds with the established (and expected) norm, superficially related at best. To say that fans just wanted "to see a guy in a Green Lantern suit" is simplistic. DeMatteis' interpretation, in fact, was the least "Hal Jordan" interpretation that has ever been written. Hal Jordan fans wanted a more Hal Jordan-like character. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I might also point out that Hal Jordan fans on their own cannot make or break a title, so perhaps there were other difficulties.

A character is defined by his or her associations, and right now, Geoff John's interpretation of Hal Jordan is only associated with the Green Lantern costume and !@#$ing blondes and redheads or punching out his C.O. Very thin, very superficial associations for a character who used to love one woman enough to give up the universe and at least respected his boss and bosses.

And it may be simplistic, but I have to express myself simplistically to describe simplistic fans. If all you care for about Hal Jordan is his punching and !@#$ing, that's simplistic, because it ignores other key things about the character that were ingrained in him over fifty years of writing, namely his devotion to his family and friends and his ability to love someone enough to marry them (hell, three someones, even), something Johns blatantly contradicts in Hal's character not even a few months ago.

People may not have liked it because it wasn't Green Lantern and it wasn't The Spectre, but DeMatteis' Hal Jordan was the purest version of the character strained out of his spandex and superheroics. His writing embodied all of the ideals of the character in spite of his situation, and it didn't fly because people obviously didn't want to read about Hal Jordan as Hal Jordan, they wanted to read about Hal Jordan as Green Lantern. All of those whiny, ridiculous HEAT members pissing and moaning about Hal's death wouldn't have given two !@#$s about a book where Hal comes back as just a hero pilot, he had to be Green Lantern. And now he is, and he isn't being written any better than Kyle or John or Guy would be if they were the title characters, because everything Johns has done with him as been centered around him being Green Lantern, not Hal Jordan- only very superficially.

No personal life, no supporting cast, no conflict outside of his job as Green Lantern, and Johns has had plenty of opportunities to do interesting stuff with Hal that didn't involve spandex. And he might still, maybe this year, but as of now, he's wasting the character to tell fanboy-driven stories about the Green Lantern and the Green Lantern Corps, not Hal Jordan.

I would argue that it's DeMatteis' Hal (and not Johns') that is the interchangeable character. If you can shoehorn an action-oriented space hero into being an introspective spirit guide, you can do it with any character. In my opinion, the title would have been a lot better had DeMatteis been allowed to create a new character for his unique interpretation. A death row inmate, for example, would have better suited the redemption theme.

What the !@#$? Did you even read the book? That's the most backwards thing I've ever heard. The entire series wasn't about The Spectre, it was about Hal Jordan, hence the change in The Spectre's motives. DeMatteis didn't change the Wrath of God into the Redemption of God because he wanted to, he did it because he had to, because there is no way in hell Hal Jordan could've ever been The Spectre otherwise.

And no, if you'd read the series, you'd know that absolutely nothing was interchangeable about the way he wrote Hal. He knew his character enough to realize that, without being a superhero and having his superheroic distractions, Hal's first thoughts would be about his brothers and their families, his true love Carol, and his friends, which is why he adopted his niece after Jack died, why he found Abin Sur's spirit and helped it reincarnate, and why he wound up trapped in a perfect world with Carol after Monsieur Stigmonus tempted him with vengeance. Everything about the way DeMatteis wrote Hal Jordan was perfect... except that he wasn't Green Lantern anymore, and that's really all anyone gave a !@#$ about, apparently.

[Raker616]

Hey say what you want about Geoff's run but leave HEAT out of this JZ, they are part of the reason that Hal was never forgotten and deserve all Hal fans respect.

[Crimson]

I like John's Green Lantern... what I think we could benefit from is everyone having their name written next to them atleast once every issue.

So many characters and unique character designs, its hard to follow who are recurring characters and who are just one off Green Lantern aliens but that's not up to John's.

[jadrax]

I like John's Green Lantern... what I think we could benefit from is everyone having their name written next to them atleast once every issue.

Yeah that should be a requirement in all comic books, especially those books with rotating art talent.

[Jack Zodiac]

Hey say what you want about Geoff's run but leave HEAT out of this JZ, they are part of the reason that Hal was never forgotten and deserve all Hal fans respect.

HEAT was a joke. It still is. And I couldn't imagine how any of them could really, honestly be happy with the way Hal is handled now if they cared more about his character than they did about his character being Green Lantern.

[princesa]

My favorite GL is John Stewart and I had little interest until the S-War because there wasn't much JS. I have to say the book is superbly done. The writing and the art are first rate.

[Ian J.N.]

And no, if you'd read the series, you'd know that absolutely nothing was interchangeable about the way he wrote Hal.
...except the setting (Utah, the spiritual realm), the supporting characters (Precocious Niece, Materna Minxx), the primary antagonist (Monsieur Stigmonious), the spiritualist philosophizing, the melancholic tone, the redemption theme and the Spectre identity itself. Because none of that is associated with the Hal Jordan character, you could swap in a similar hero without alteration. The book would largely be the same, and you'd be raving about how DeMatteis captured the true essence of Hank Hall.

I'm not trying to argue that DeMatteis' was a bad character, or that it was an inappropriate take on Hal, or that it was unnecessary to the character's evolution. I'm saying that when an interpretation is rooted more in rationalization than in the established facts and reflexive mental associations one has of the character, it's interchangeable. Furthermore, there's little ground to claim that that's "the real" character.

Conversely, when every aspect of a title is rooted in the established character--setting, supporting cast, villains, themes, plot conflicts--despite however "good" or emotionally complex that title may be, the character can't be interchanged. Point to any story of the current run, and I'll explain why it's a Hal Jordan story and not one of the other Green Lanterns'.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Jack, Hal Jordan is my favorite character, and some of my favorite stories about him were from when he wasn't a Green Lantern, but a jetpack-wearin', pistol-packin' man of action. In fact, I think DC should explore that aspect of Hal's life more often.

But I am enjoying the hell out of Johns' Hal Jordan.

[Jack Zodiac]

Conversely, when every aspect of a title is rooted in the established character--setting, supporting cast, villains, themes, plot conflicts--despite however "good" or emotionally complex that title may be, the character can't be interchanged. Point to any story of the current run, and I'll explain why it's a Hal Jordan story and not one of the other Green Lanterns'.

This is getting ridiculous, because I'm sure you know exactly what I mean when I say "Johns' Green Lantern could star any Green Lantern and still be the same book." Yes, it's Hal, and yes, he has a job as a pilot, a love interest, a family and friends, but we haven't seen jack !@#$ of that in Johns' storytelling. For over two years now, it's been about the Green Lantern Corps with Hal's personal life outside of being a Green Lantern almost non-existent. Two issues after OYL and the Star Sapphire issue, but that's it.

Everything else? The Manhunter at Edwards Air Force Base? Could've been told with Guy Gardner. Hal's past in the Air Force didn't play any part in him hunting down the Manhunter. Black Hand and Hector Hammond and Mongul's kids? Standard super-villain fare, anybody from Guy to John to Kyle could've filled in. Sinestro Corps War? Outside of his admonished past as Parallax and the background characters views of him, could've been any Green Lantern in the universe. He was barely the main character in his own book for the duration of the war.

There is so much potential storytelling in Hal's personal life (from his commanding officer knowing he's Green Lantern, to Coast City being rebuilt and repopulated and in need of a hero again, to Jim and his family being back in his brother's life, to Carol being divorced and still in love with Hal while he's chasing Jillian around) that hasn't been or is barely being used to any effect now, after two years. For nearly two years, Johns has spent almost every story setting something big up for the Green Lantern mantle and mythos as opposed to taking the time to establish Hal Jordan as anything but his superheroic self. I don't want to not see Hal Jordan out of the suit doing mundane crap all the time, but I'd love to see him in Coast City doing anything that involved his personal life more than once or twice a year.

Last issue we saw him and Jillian make bubble-love for one panel. Great, it's a start, but as with most of what Geoff has done with Hal, it's a superficial start.

Jack, Hal Jordan is my favorite character, and some of my favorite stories about him were from when he wasn't a Green Lantern, but a jetpack-wearin', pistol-packin' man of action. In fact, I think DC should explore that aspect of Hal's life more often.

But I am enjoying the hell out of Johns' Hal Jordan.

I feel the same way about Hal Jordan. Whether he's flying through space or flying a jet, he's a great character. And I think Johns has a good idea of that character (outside of a few monologues of his I've disagreed with), but as for seeing him writing that character outside of his spandex, not so much. I'd like to see more Hal Jordan doing stuff that takes care of Hal Jordan's life. Just like any hero I appreciate for more than their powers and costume, I'd like to see them living. How lame would Spider-Man be if he were just some snarky ass who beat up criminals, or how boring would Superman be if he were just some super-boyscout who spouted altruistic rhetoric? Johns hasn't written any boring stories, because I haven't not been entertained by any of his story arcs yet, but he's written a pretty basic Hal so far, and I hope that changes soon.

[Raker616]

HEAT was a joke. It still is. And I couldn't imagine how any of them could really, honestly be happy with the way Hal is handled now if they cared more about his character than they did about his character being Green Lantern.
HEAT was integral in stopping Hal Jordan from ending up like Barry Allen, a great character passed over and used as a tease to bump up Flash sales when they went downhill. HEAT fought, yell, screamed, and did whatever they had to make DC listen and in the long run they had a big role in bringing him back. I don't see how any real Hal Jordan fan doesn't owe them a debt of thanks and I have a feeling since I knew several members that they would love Geoff's run.

[Jack Zodiac]

HEAT was good for squat-all in bringing Hal Jordan back unless you count that one of them managed to break out of the fanboy quagmire and actually get himself a job writing comics. Hal could only be so lucky to have wound up the dead hero Barry became instead of some fawned over idol for a bunch of whiny people on the Internet.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I have nothing against HEAT, they did some good charity work that never gets mentioned as often as the death threat to Dooley & Marz that HEAT had nothing to do with...

BUT

They didn't have anything to do with Hal Jordan and the Corps coming back. The editorial regime change from Mike Carlin, who co-plotted Emerald Twilight, to Dan Dido is what prompted the return of the more traditional GL status quo.

[Ian J.N.]

This is getting ridiculous, because I'm sure you know exactly what I mean when I say "Johns' Green Lantern could star any Green Lantern and still be the same book."

I get what you're saying about the lack of personal character development and, to an extent, I agree. It's the "and therefore this book could be about any Green Lantern" I take issue with, because it's really selling the title short.

You could do a John Stewart arc where he rescues MIA corpsman from Cyborg-Superman and the Manhunters, and it'd be a serviceable action story, but you'd be losing all the interesting bits: the fact that Hal was indirectly responsible for their capture, the parallel with Shane and Cowgirl's POW imprisonment (for which Hal was also responsible), the metatextual aspect to the "I don't care what you say about a fear monster" condemnations, and the inspired team up of Hal's two machine villains.

It's because of connections like those I'm really enjoying the title. What made Sinestro Corps cool, I thought, wasn't just "Yay bloodshed" but the central idea of the evil opposite building a whole freaking army of evil opposites (complete with two evil Supermans and a Kyle Rayner update of Hal's own evil identity). What makes that idea work is the classic Hal Jordan and Sinestro rivalry.

The connections are cool and they stem from the established facts, relationships, and history of Hal Jordan, so to me this really feels like a Hal Jordan book--personal development notwithstanding.

Anyway, we're arguing in circles. Probably best just to disagree.

[Jack Zodiac]

I get what you're saying about the lack of personal character development and, to an extent, I agree. It's the "and therefore this book could be about any Green Lantern" I take issue with, because it's really selling the title short.

You could do a John Stewart arc where he rescues MIA corpsman from Cyborg-Superman and the Manhunters, and it'd be a serviceable action story, but you'd be losing all the interesting bits: the fact that Hal was indirectly responsible for their capture, the parallel with Shane and Cowgirl's POW imprisonment (for which Hal was also responsible), the metatextual aspect to the "I don't care what you say about a fear monster" condemnations, and the inspired team up of Hal's two machine villains.

I don't know, I may not be reading into it as deeply (although, like I said before, the handful of Hal-centric stories post-OYL were pretty great, especially the two issues where he busted his friends out of that prison camp, and then the Star Sapphire issue), because I haven't found those small bits that interesting, especially because they're of more concern to Hal's past sins being admonished even further, something I didn't care for about Hal's return to being Green Lantern.

It's because of connections like those I'm really enjoying the title. What made Sinestro Corps cool, I thought, wasn't just "Yay bloodshed" but the central idea of the evil opposite building a whole freaking army of evil opposites (complete with two evil Supermans and a Kyle Rayner update of Hal's own evil identity). What makes that idea work is the classic Hal Jordan and Sinestro rivalry.

The connections are cool and they stem from the established facts, relationships, and history of Hal Jordan, so to me this really feels like a Hal Jordan book--personal development notwithstanding.

I'll give you that, "Sinestro Corps War" wasn't just an action-packed storyline that pumped more steam into the Green Lantern mythos, because yes, Sinestro's characterization and past with the Corps, most importantly Hal, was the outline for the entire event. And if they'd done that story arc while Hal was still dead, it wouldn't have been nearly as cool, especially toward the end when he clocks Sin in Coast City.

Anyway, we're arguing in circles. Probably best just to disagree.

Agreed. There's things I like and things I don't like about the way Johns is handling Hal Jordan as a character, but either way, he's yet to tell a story in the book I haven't at least been entertained by.

[Raker616]

HEAT was good for squat-all in bringing Hal Jordan back unless you count that one of them managed to break out of the fanboy quagmire and actually get himself a job writing comics. Hal could only be so lucky to have wound up the dead hero Barry became instead of some fawned over idol for a bunch of whiny people on the Internet.

Yeah I mean what a great legacy Barry has left since being killed and replaced by Wally who in turn became just like Barry making his death useless.

[Jack Zodiac]

Wally's made Barry's death as useless as Kyle made Hal's. Not at all. Where the hell do you get this crap?

[TheCrisisKid]

I've loving the Green Lantern series since GJ has gotten a hold of it. I was always a fan of the series before Kyle Rayner came into the picture, but I never was a real fan of the storylines, just the Hal Jordan character. Now I am a big fan of all the Green Lantern characters, good or bad, and the storylines are great! I can't wait to see all the new types of rings find hosts!

[Gonzalez]

I have to say that I enjoyed the whole spectrum plotline when it was done to perfection during the original Amethyst, Princess of Gemworld series.

By the way, that's a series that should be made into a TV series or a feature film, complete with its own toy line. It was awesome, it could be done beautifully with today's CGI capabilities and would be very, very popular if cast with the right actors for the roles.

[Froggy]

I have nothing against HEAT, they did some good charity work that never gets mentioned as often as the death threat to Dooley & Marz that HEAT had nothing to do with...

BUT

They didn't have anything to do with Hal Jordan and the Corps coming back. The editorial regime change from Mike Carlin, who co-plotted Emerald Twilight, to Dan Dido is what prompted the return of the more traditional GL status quo. Death threat? WTF?

HEAT was good for squat-all in bringing Hal Jordan back unless you count that one of them managed to break out of the fanboy quagmire and actually get himself a job writing comics. Hal could only be so lucky to have wound up the dead hero Barry became instead of some fawned over idol for a bunch of whiny people on the Internet.

Yeah I mean what a great legacy Barry has left since being killed and replaced by Wally who in turn became just like Barry making his death useless. Wally is NOTHING like barry...if you think that you obv haven't read the character

[Froggy]

I have nothing against HEAT, they did some good charity work that never gets mentioned as often as the death threat to Dooley & Marz that HEAT had nothing to do with...

BUT

They didn't have anything to do with Hal Jordan and the Corps coming back. The editorial regime change from Mike Carlin, who co-plotted Emerald Twilight, to Dan Dido is what prompted the return of the more traditional GL status quo. Death threat? WTF?

HEAT was good for squat-all in bringing Hal Jordan back unless you count that one of them managed to break out of the fanboy quagmire and actually get himself a job writing comics. Hal could only be so lucky to have wound up the dead hero Barry became instead of some fawned over idol for a bunch of whiny people on the Internet.

Yeah I mean what a great legacy Barry has left since being killed and replaced by Wally who in turn became just like Barry making his death useless. Wally is NOTHING like barry...if you think that you obv haven't read the character

[Jack Zodiac]

Death threat? WTF?

Yeah, a couple of chucklehead HEAT members threatened Ron Marz and Kevin Dooley after Emerald Twilight. The rest of HEAT didn't have anything to do with it, but they looked bad just by association with really, ridiculously insane fanboys like them.

[Froggy]

Yeah, a couple of chucklehead HEAT members threatened Ron Marz and Kevin Dooley after Emerald Twilight. The rest of HEAT didn't have anything to do with it, but they looked bad just by association with really, ridiculously insane fanboys like them.

that's taking it too far, seriously

that's just not cool, wishing death on someone for that

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yeah, a couple of chucklehead HEAT members threatened Ron Marz and Kevin Dooley after Emerald Twilight. The rest of HEAT didn't have anything to do with it, but they looked bad just by association with really, ridiculously insane fanboys like them.

They were not members of HEAT, nor were they ever members of HEAT to my knowledge. And, for the record, I am not a member of HEAT, nor have I ever been a member of HEAT either.

I'm not saying you were lying, but what you are saying is simply not true. Now that you know it's not true, I would appreciate it if you stopped spreading this outright falsehood any further.

Thank you.

[Shatagni]

As much as I like Hal Jordan, I really don't want to credit HEAT for anything.

If DC actually listened them, Emerald Twilight would've been retconed to as just Hal's nightmare or something and Kyle would've been manhandled like a b*tch. Thank god that never happened.

I have nothing against fandom in general but from my experience with them, they seem to be just Elitists and Kyle-bashers. It might be just an isolated incident, I don't know all of them but if you do a little search on the official DC forums, you'll know what I mean.

[Jack Zodiac]

They were not members of HEAT, nor were they ever members of HEAT to my knowledge. And, for the record, I am not a member of HEAT, nor have I ever been a member of HEAT either.

I'm not saying you were lying, but what you are saying is simply not true. Now that you know it's not true, I would appreciate it if you stopped spreading this outright falsehood any further.

Thank you.

Weren't they? Every time I hear it, they either were or claimed to be HEAT members, which is why it drew, pardon the pun!, so much heat on HEAT. Not that I would have credited a whole group of nerds for the actions of just a couple crazy nerds myself. That'd be like lumping all the "One More Day" critics in with the handful of silly nerds who bothered buying every issue and burning them in protest.

And please, don't thank me! After all, you're not a HEAT member, so it's not like I'm doing you any favors by correcting my outright falsehood. But I'll be sure to remember to clarify it in the future, "HEAT didn't do it, but a couple of crazier, angrier, sadder nerds did."

As much as I like Hal Jordan, I really don't want to credit HEAT for anything.

Good idea. Screaming fans don't change anything, numbers do. Screaming fans didn't bring back Spider-Girl or Manhunter. The promise of more numbers for those books did. DC didn't bring back Hal Jordan because some nerds kept demanding it, they brought him back because they knew with the right writer, he'd turn them a huge dollar, and lo! He has!

[Raker616]

Wally's made Barry's death as useless as Kyle made Hal's. Not at all. Where the hell do you get this crap?

Considering all the bs you've spouted since i've been on this board you should be really carefull in making blanket insults, and maybe you need better reading comprehension. Wally has been turned into Barry little by little as time has gone by since his death, and like i've said for a while now why go with replacement when the real thing is better and sadly he never had a HEAT type group to fight for him.

[Jack Zodiac]

Wally's made Barry's death as useless as Kyle made Hal's. Not at all. Where the hell do you get this crap?

Considering all the bs you've spouted since i've been on this board you should be really carefull in making blanket insults, and maybe you need better reading comprehension. Wally has been turned into Barry little by little as time has gone by since his death, and like i've said for a while now why go with replacement when the real thing is better and sadly he never had a HEAT type group to fight for him.

Sadly? No, I think it's perfectly fine that he didn't have some worthless group trying to get him back, because he died a perfectly heroic, well-written, in-character death. And Wally is as far from Barry as it gets. Unemployed, with family, funny. Barry was a pretty straight arrow character and his personal life was limited to Iris with little angst until her death, while Wally's life has been almost completely personal and instead of "shoe-filling," "shadow-escaping" from his Uncle Barry.

Seriously, the way you talk about most of these characters, I wonder what comics you read, or if you just make statements randomly. And if you find that or the previous insulting, you need thicker net-skin, or to put me on ignore. Either'd be fine by me.

[Raker616]

Thicker net-skin that's funny considering I come from the old days of Kyle vs. Hal board wars, but anyways the problem with all replacements is very simple. They are young heroes that strive to be like their predecesors but once they actually achieve that status they turn into a light version of them. And why would you need a light version of Barry Allen or Hal Jordan when the real thing. Also again I ask what is this great legacy that Barry has left that would be ruined by his return?, the guy is used as a tease everytime that Flash loses sales or they need buzz for the title then go back to his replacements who have struggled over the last couple of years to say the least.

[Jack Zodiac]

No, the legacy is in the character. And Barry didn't leave that, it's been there since the Forties along with Jay Garrick. What he left was the only true succession of a hero in Wally West, while the rest of the teen sidekicks of yesteryear wallow in Limbo. What Barry left was one of the only occasions where a hero dies and it actually sticks instead of cheapening the prospect of character death when an editor decides to kill someone off to drum up interest only to have them brought back soon after as with Superman and Green Lantern.

The problem you see with successors is a view you're projecting on these books and characters, not something that actually exists. Green Lantern continued seeing strong sales after Hal Jordan was written out and Ron Marz introduced Kyle Rayner, despite the protests of HEAT and other angry fans. And historically, the succession of a hero's title onto a new character has only been positive. Even Hal Jordan isn't the Green Lantern, and if he and every Green Lantern in the universe disappeared, the character would still exist in Alan Scott, the true predecessor of the Green Lantern mantle.

You see, the flaw with your idea about character succession is in the very deeply rooted histories of these characters. Practically none of them are the original characters they once were. Superman isn't the same superhero that graced the pages of Action Comics #1, Ray Palmer isn't the Atom, let alone Ryan Choi, Carter Hall isn't even the same Carter Hall he was sixty-something years ago. All of these characters have changed, evolved, or passed their name on to someone new and popular today.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

And please, don't thank me! After all, you're not a HEAT member, so it's not like I'm doing you any favors by correcting my outright falsehood. But I'll be sure to remember to clarify it in the future, "HEAT didn't do it, but a couple of crazier, angrier, sadder nerds did."

You don't have to be a member of a group to be upset when you see mean-spirited lies attributed to them. For all their over-zealousness, HEAT actually did a lot of good charity work that never gets mentioned as much as the death threats they had nothing to do with.

If some twerp were saying something completely untrue about you, I'd do the same for you too.

[Jack Zodiac]

You don't have to be a member of a group to be upset when you see mean-spirited lies attributed to them. For all their over-zealousness, HEAT actually did a lot of good charity work that never gets mentioned as much as the death threats they had nothing to do with.

If some twerp were saying something completely untrue about you, I'd do the same for you too.

I don't know how mean-spirited it was, in fact I went out of my way to remind people that those people I thought were members acted on their own, instead of making HEAT out to be bad guys. I don't dislike them, I just don't think they were a worthwhile group with a worthwhile cause, though I do appreciate the work they did with their donations to children's hospitals and starting that Gil Kane scholarship for visual arts students. They did some good, definitely, even if I think they had a pretty ridiculous reason for forming their group.

Anyway, I'm perfectly fine with admitting I was misinformed about the two chuckleheads who threatened Ron Marz being HEAT members. And I've no animosity or even dislike towards the group, I just don't think they were really instrumental or even influential in Hal Jordan's return.

[Mr Omnis]

No, the legacy is in the character. And Barry didn't leave that, it's been there since the Forties along with Jay Garrick. What he left was the only true succession of a hero in Wally West, while the rest of the teen sidekicks of yesteryear wallow in Limbo. What Barry left was one of the only occasions where a hero dies and it actually sticks instead of cheapening the prospect of character death when an editor decides to kill someone off to drum up interest only to have them brought back soon after as with Superman and Green Lantern.

The mantle going from Barry to Wally, and Barry being--essentially--immortalized is a great concept in the comics. That Barry Allen has STAYED dead shows that someone, on some level, understands that his return will cheapen what happened to him. I mean, the guy died to help save the universe. They made a HUGE deal of out if, and the legacy continues.

It's like whenever Oliver Queen came back. Conner Hawke didn't cheapen the Green Arrow name, but at the same time, Queen coming back made his own death less meaningful. I mean, I like Oliver, but at the same time if he was still dead I wouldn't be upset.

[Raker616]

No, the legacy is in the character. And Barry didn't leave that, it's been there since the Forties along with Jay Garrick. What he left was the only true succession of a hero in Wally West, while the rest of the teen sidekicks of yesteryear wallow in Limbo. What Barry left was one of the only occasions where a hero dies and it actually sticks instead of cheapening the prospect of character death when an editor decides to kill someone off to drum up interest only to have them brought back soon after as with Superman and Green Lantern.

I'll always say that in many ways Wally is the exception to the rule, but his time has passed since it's gotten harder in the past couple of years to write good stories with him. Writers have struggled to keep him fresh once he got past becoming his own hero he lost alot of what made him so popular in the first place. But to me Barry has left nothing but a carrot that DC dangles at alot of older fans to get buzz for The Flash title only to keep the status quo.

The problem you see with successors is a view you're projecting on these books and characters, not something that actually exists. Green Lantern continued seeing strong sales after Hal Jordan was written out and Ron Marz introduced Kyle Rayner, despite the protests of HEAT and other angry fans. And historically, the succession of a hero's title onto a new character has only been positive. Even Hal Jordan isn't the Green Lantern, and if he and every Green Lantern in the universe disappeared, the character would still exist in Alan Scott, the true predecessor of the Green Lantern mantle.

I don't think I have to explain to you the difference between Hal and Alan do I?, and Kyle started off successfull but then when the hype died down and the '90's failed reality hit. Hal thanks to HEAT and his devoted fanbase never allowed Kyle to become what Wally became, for all the times DC tried and tried to appease then they refused and never backed down. Only when Hal returned as GL would most GL fans comeback and support a GL title and it wasn't just fans writers wanted it too that alone should tell you why Hal is so special and The Green Latern to most people.

You see, the flaw with your idea about character succession is in the very deeply rooted histories of these characters. Practically none of them are the original characters they once were. Superman isn't the same superhero that graced the pages of Action Comics #1, Ray Palmer isn't the Atom, let alone Ryan Choi, Carter Hall isn't even the same Carter Hall he was sixty-something years ago. All of these characters have changed, evolved, or passed their name on to someone new and popular today.

And most have failed people like these heroes to be an idea to be what for the most part the best things that they remember from being a kid. When you try to change that and try to put a new current spin on things fans revolt and the little bump that some characters get with the initial hype goes away pretty fast. The idea of reaching new fans is good but turning your back on old fans to get the new hot hero or reboot usually fails. And then we go back to the way things were sooner or later if the company is smart if not you get "It's Magic".

[Alex L]

I'll always say that in many ways Wally is the exception to the rule, but his time has passed since it's gotten harder in the past couple of years to write good stories with him. Writers have struggled to keep him fresh once he got past becoming his own hero he lost alot of what made him so popular in the first place. But to me Barry has left nothing but a carrot that DC dangles at alot of older fans to get buzz for The Flash title only to keep the status quo.

How many people expect Barry to make a full-time comeback? Honestly?

It's kind of hard to judge Flash over the past couple of years, because of DC's current "between Big Events" attitude.

Right before Infinite Crisis, they were wrapping up Wally's tenure.
Bart got a half-push that got aborted, and Wally got shoehorned back in (and is still finding his place and the stories they want to write with him).

I don't think I have to explain to you the difference between Hal and Alan do I?, and Kyle started off successfull but then when the hype died down and the '90's failed reality hit. Hal thanks to HEAT and his devoted fanbase never allowed Kyle to become what Wally became, for all the times DC tried and tried to appease then they refused and never backed down. Only when Hal returned as GL would most GL fans comeback and support a GL title and it wasn't just fans writers wanted it too that alone should tell you why Hal is so special and The Green Latern to most people.

Truthiness:
It used to be, everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. But that's not the case anymore. Facts matter not at all. Perception is everything. It's certainty.
-------- ✂ --------
What is important? What you want to be true, or what is true?…

Truthiness is 'What I say is right, and [nothing] anyone else says could possibly be true.'

It is a fact that Kyle kept the Lantern going for nearly a decade on his own.

It is also a fact that his title did not tank under Marz. Not sure about Winick.

His role in the JLA, especially under Morrison's JLA, was unique and far different than Jordan could/would have been.

I will agree that Jordan's title is doing well, and Johns is doing great things with the franchise, but that doesn't make Kyle's run a failure no matter how much you may want it to.

[Raker616]

It was a failure since he was meant to replace Hal and make everyone forget about him, remember when they called him the one true GL as his tagline?. Kyle didn't do anything for the mythos which has always gone hand in hand with GL and the decade number is hillarious considering that about half way through it the writting was on the wall.

[Jack Zodiac]

He did replace Hal. For the better part of a decade. With strong numbers and fan support. Your "argument" is empty and bottomless.

[Raker616]

If he was so succesful for a decade then why did he get replaced by Hal and why did Ion mini fail?.

[KJ_81]

Kyle was successful. He has quite a large fan following, and I think that the main reason some fans didn't like him at first, was due to the way he was introduced. 'Okay, old one is bad, forget about him, here's...the new one!'
GL wouldn't be the success it is today with Kyle's era. By deconstructing it we saw the importance of the GL role and the Corps. Also, considering Hal's shaky run's, Kyle's title run is pretty damn good.
As for sales of the Ion series- some people waited for the trade, others didn't buy it because: they didn't like the costume, they weren't happy with the introduction of the Ion powers largely from Jade's death, they were swamped by Infinite Crisis books already, etc etc. Many valid reasons.
And if Hal was so great, how come he had so many title reboots? His sales were often lacking, but thats glossed over by the Kyle-haters. Hal's run was all about the multiple cancellations, and the major fluctuations in the character. No-one could make the character work. No-one could give Hal Jordan the identity he needed to become a consistent sales success.
It's happening now, but Kyle plays an integral role in all this.

[KJ_81]

Kyle was successful. He has quite a large fan following, and I think that the main reason some fans didn't like him at first, was due to the way he was introduced. 'Okay, old one is bad, forget about him, here's...the new one!'
GL wouldn't be the success it is today with Kyle's era. By deconstructing it we saw the importance of the GL role and the Corps. Also, considering Hal's shaky run's, Kyle's title run is pretty damn good.
As for sales of the Ion series- some people waited for the trade, others didn't buy it because: they didn't like the costume, they weren't happy with the introduction of the Ion powers largely from Jade's death, they were swamped by Infinite Crisis books already, etc etc. Many valid reasons.
And if Hal was so great, how come he had so many title reboots? His sales were often lacking, but thats glossed over by the Kyle-haters. Hal's run was all about the multiple cancellations, and the major fluctuations in the character. No-one could make the character work. No-one could give Hal Jordan the identity he needed to become a consistent sales success.
It's happening now, but Kyle plays an integral role in all this.

[Jack Zodiac]

If he was so succesful for a decade then why did he get replaced by Hal and why did Ion mini fail?.

He was replaced by Hal because the editors and writers that work at DC today are nostalgia-hounds who fear any real, lasting change and were looking for an easy way to turn a buck on a book. And Marz' Ion mini did far from fail. So far as mini-series are concerned, it did spectacular, never dipping below 35k in sales, outselling a slew of DC's ongoings that are still ongoing today.

If he wasn't so successful, why did his book continue selling, on average, 80k a month? Why was he accepted so willingly by great creators like Grant Morrison? If he wasn't so successful, why wasn't he replaced by Hal Jordan sooner? Why is he still around? Why would they want to keep an unsuccessful character around, even giving a starring role in a book that's getting more and more exposure, if he's so unsuccessful?

Or maybe you don't know what you're talking about.

[stelok]

My verdict....

In my opinion Geoff Johns is doing a GREAT job on Green Lantern

[Darrell D.]

Kyle was successful. He has quite a large fan following, and I think that the main reason some fans didn't like him at first, was due to the way he was introduced. 'Okay, old one is bad, forget about him, here's...the new one!'
GL wouldn't be the success it is today with Kyle's era. By deconstructing it we saw the importance of the GL role and the Corps. Also, considering Hal's shaky run's, Kyle's title run is pretty damn good.
As for sales of the Ion series- some people waited for the trade, others didn't buy it because: they didn't like the costume, they weren't happy with the introduction of the Ion powers largely from Jade's death, they were swamped by Infinite Crisis books already, etc etc. Many valid reasons.
And if Hal was so great, how come he had so many title reboots? His sales were often lacking, but thats glossed over by the Kyle-haters. Hal's run was all about the multiple cancellations, and the major fluctuations in the character. No-one could make the character work. No-one could give Hal Jordan the identity he needed to become a consistent sales success.
It's happening now, but Kyle plays an integral role in all this.

Hal was boring, bland and cardboard. He had a series that was written by a writer who seem bored. The book was on the verge of cancellation. 'Emerald Twilight', Kyle Rayner, and boom...people were talking and buying the book.
I agree with you, JLA with Jordan as GL would have been different, and I really don't think in a good way. Morrison gave Kyle a very true and real 'everyman' presence in that book.

I really am getting sick of the silver age fan fiction that is coming out, and Johns is one of the main offenders. Did Hal really need to come back? Really? And with a yellow fear monster? I read GL: Rebirth, and what was it? An excuse to have Jordan punch Batman, and be established as a 'bad-ass'. Sorry, not buying that. It was bad writing (the whole scene of describing how the different GL's wielded their power rings was incredibly ham-handed) and I was so surprised that people liked it so much. I've read better fan-fiction. Sinestro War was more of the same(with the exception of the Gibbon's scripted parts) and more excuses for 'bad-assery' that is tiresome.

Now I hear that they want to bring Barry Allen back. Oh, joy.

[Raker616]

He was replaced by Hal because the editors and writers that work at DC today are nostalgia-hounds who fear any real, lasting change and were looking for an easy way to turn a buck on a book. And Marz' Ion mini did far from fail. So far as mini-series are concerned, it did spectacular, never dipping below 35k in sales, outselling a slew of DC's ongoings that are still ongoing today.

And what would you call the idiots who destroyed Hal and the entire GL mythos and nearly killed the industry in the '90's?. Save it the people who are running DC now may not be perfect but the are 100 times better than the hacks that ran it before. Ion was a test to see if Kyle had enough fans to support his own book and the answer was no, it failed sucks for Kyle fans but facts are facts.

If he wasn't so successful, why did his book continue selling, on average, 80k a month? Why was he accepted so willingly by great creators like Grant Morrison? If he wasn't so successful, why wasn't he replaced by Hal Jordan sooner? Why is he still around? Why would they want to keep an unsuccessful character around, even giving a starring role in a book that's getting more and more exposure, if he's so unsuccessful?

80k a month?, if it sold that well there would be no reason to bring Hal back but it didn't Kyle's buzz and hype died down after a couple of years then it was all down hill. Compared to how many writers favored Hal to Kyle bringing up Grant isn't much of an argument, and why is he still around I have no idea. But unlike the last run GL is about making the entire mythos bigger and stronger killing off Kyle serves no purpose regardless of my personal views on that.

Or maybe you don't know what you're talking about.

As always take a second and make sure you do, before spouting off again.

[Jack Zodiac]

And what would you call the idiots who destroyed Hal and the entire GL mythos and nearly killed the industry in the '90's?. Save it the people who are running DC now may not be perfect but the are 100 times better than the hacks that ran it before. Ion was a test to see if Kyle had enough fans to support his own book and the answer was no, it failed sucks for Kyle fans but facts are facts.

Man, the more ridiculous your points get, the worse your sentence structure becomes. The entire Green Lantern mythos was not destroyed by the evil editorial department of the scary-bad '90s. It was changed dramatically and eventually changed back, but it was all done without Hal Jordan. He didn't come back and save the Corps. Kyle, his failure of a replacement, took care of all of that on his own. The editors who brought Hal back weren't even really responsible for it considering they'd been kicking the long-awaited and creatively bankrupt idea of resurrecting him since the previous regime, but no one brought an idea with them before Johns that looked like it could make the cash it has. And the Ion mini, whether it was a test run for a Kyle solo book or not, was far from a failure compared to the "successful" ongoings and mini-series DC's publishing now. And he obviously has enough fan support if he's starring in DC's big weekly series and Green Lantern Corps.

"Facts are facts" when you're pulling 'em out of your ass, I guess.

80k a month?, if it sold that well there would be no reason to bring Hal back but it didn't Kyle's buzz and hype died down after a couple of years then it was all down hill. Compared to how many writers favored Hal to Kyle bringing up Grant isn't much of an argument, and why is he still around I have no idea. But unlike the last run GL is about making the entire mythos bigger and stronger killing off Kyle serves no purpose regardless of my personal views on that.

Yeah, on average, 80k a month under Marz' pen. I'll let you do your own footwork if you don't believe me, but even after Hal was dead and cold and his fans still hot in the face, Green Lantern volume three was selling more than well enough to sustain itself as a monthly comic, as was JLA, which featured Kyle as Green Lantern for nearly the entire run of the book.

And no, comparing writers favoring characters isn't worth much when you're comparing nostalgic schmucks who can't evolve with their universes or create something new like Alex Ross to creative geniuses who can continue to build in every story they write like Grant Morrison. See, instead of vomiting verbal diarrhea about "destroying the mythos," he continued building it around the new character, as did Marz and, in his own small ways, Winick, until they'd built up so much that they eventually brought the Corps back anyway, something that would've happened with or without Johns and Hal Jordan.

As always take a second and make sure you do, before spouting off again.

Please, please, the next time you respond to me, write coherently and try not to ramble, because it's getting ridiculous, and it's only made worse by the fact that I always seem to catch your responses at two in the morning. But then I see 'em again in the middle of the afternoon and it looks like the same crap my blurry, drunk eyes caught right before bed.

[Raker616]

Man, the more ridiculous your points get, the worse your sentence structure becomes. The entire Green Lantern mythos was not destroyed by the evil editorial department of the scary-bad '90s. It was changed dramatically and eventually changed back, but it was all done without Hal Jordan. He didn't come back and save the Corps. Kyle, his failure of a replacement, took care of all of that on his own. The editors who brought Hal back weren't even really responsible for it considering they'd been kicking the long-awaited and creatively bankrupt idea of resurrecting him since the previous regime, but no one brought an idea with them before Johns that looked like it could make the cash it has. And the Ion mini, whether it was a test run for a Kyle solo book or not, was far from a failure compared to the "successful" ongoings and mini-series DC's publishing now. And he obviously has enough fan support if he's starring in DC's big weekly series and Green Lantern Corps.

"Facts are facts" when you're pulling 'em out of your ass, I guess.

First, save the continued spelling insults if they bother you much you can stop responding because they are gonna continue to get worse. Second, to say that the GLC wasn't destroyed to push Kyle as the one true GL is ridiculous and just plain wrong. Third, i'm glad that DC waited until Geoff came along but the Kyle title was given more than enough time it just didn't matter in the end. Fourth, Ion failed just because it did better than current failures does not matter he couldn't convince DC to get his own solo title the fact that he's in several books now can't change that fact.

Yeah, on average, 80k a month under Marz' pen. I'll let you do your own footwork if you don't believe me, but even after Hal was dead and cold and his fans still hot in the face, Green Lantern volume three was selling more than well enough to sustain itself as a monthly comic, as was JLA, which featured Kyle as Green Lantern for nearly the entire run of the book.

And no, comparing writers favoring characters isn't worth much when you're comparing nostalgic schmucks who can't evolve with their universes or create something new like Alex Ross to creative geniuses who can continue to build in every story they write like Grant Morrison. See, instead of vomiting verbal diarrhea about "destroying the mythos," he continued building it around the new character, as did Marz and, in his own small ways, Winick, until they'd built up so much that they eventually brought the Corps back anyway, something that would've happened with or without Johns and Hal Jordan.

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=695

Now after you look up the sales to GL you can tell me how I pull facts out of my ass and don't know what the hell i'm talking about. Good now that you got that out of your system, if you think that Kyle was the main reason why Grant's JLA did so well you're out of your mind.

You wanna debate who's a better writer between Grant Morrison or Alex Ross, Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek I can do it all day, the names speak for themselves and all Hal fans who know how to write him. If you wanna defend Marz destroying the entire GL mythos and leaving the one GL, again we can do that all day i'm more than happy to. Geoff unlike either has proven that he can write any type of book and has created one of the best GL runs ever and revitalized the mythos something no one else has been able to do since the SA.

Please, please, the next time you respond to me, write coherently and try not to ramble, because it's getting ridiculous, and it's only made worse by the fact that I always seem to catch your responses at two in the morning. But then I see 'em again in the middle of the afternoon and it looks like the same crap my blurry, drunk eyes caught right before bed.

Want my posting schedule JZ?, get over yourself if it's that much of a problem to get on a MB and write a response don't do it. Because complaining about how Hal has no characterization and what ever other crap that you just can't get over, has become repetetive and useless but that's just you.

[Darrell D.]

Good now that you got that out of your system, if you think that Kyle was the main reason why Grant's JLA did so well you're out of your mind.

He never said that. He said that Grant was able to use the character and build on it, and not join in the 'destruction' of the GLC mythos, whatever the hell that is. The GLC obviously wasn't working, hence the bold steps taken.

You wanna debate who's a better writer between Grant Morrison or Alex Ross, Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek I can do it all day, the names speak for themselves and all Hal fans who know how to write him.
Huh? Are you saying all Hal fans can write him? Or that only Hal fans know how to write him? You must be a fan of fan fiction.
If you wanna defend Marz destroying the entire GL mythos and leaving the one GL, again we can do that all day i'm more than happy to. Geoff unlike either has proven that he can write any type of book and has created one of the best GL runs ever and revitalized the mythos something no one else has been able to do since the SA.
Geoff Johns is not that great of a writer. He's mediocre, and he just happened to ride to 'greatness' on the huge collective fan masturbation wave.
"He can write any type of book"..as far as I know, he only writes super-hero books. He's not exactly Neil Gaiman or Alan Moore. If I'm wrong, let me know, but I'm hardly going to search for his non-super-hero work, if it even exists. GL: Rebirth was okay, but in the end it's just another super-hero book. It did not deserve the countless accolades it received. His Flash run started good, but then it went to shit around the 'Zoom' arc. He has to have his heavy-handed angst.
Ron Marz is by means a great writer either, but he really didn't destroy the GLC, it was an editorial mandate. Statements like 'Marz destroying all I hold dear, dear GOD, think of the children,' was one of the reasons HEAT was a gigantic joke. I wanted Hal to stay gone because Kyle was a more interesting character, but part of me just wanted to spite HEAT.

[Alex L]

First, save the continued spelling insults if they bother you much you can stop responding because they are gonna continue to get worse.

Is that supposed to be some sort of counterpoint?
"Watch out, 'cuz if you don't like my misspelling and grammatical errors now, just wait til you see what I've got coming!"

Second, to say that the GLC wasn't destroyed to push Kyle as the one true GL is ridiculous and just plain wrong. Third, i'm glad that DC waited until Geoff came along but the Kyle title was given more than enough time it just didn't matter in the end. Fourth, Ion failed just because it did better than current failures does not matter he couldn't convince DC to get his own solo title the fact that he's in several books now can't change that fact.

Marz didn't destroy the Corps in order to make Kyle t3h one true GL.
He didn't see the point in having 3600 of them around -- since one ring itself can do anything, why have thousands of them?

Whether or not he missed the point of the GLC as a source of storylines and characters is another matter, but he did not destroy the GLC to elevate his anointed son.

Ion was written and solicited as a miniseries. It was never meant to be an ongoing.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/thumb/b/b7/Ion_-2.jpg/350px-Ion_-2.jpg

See? "#2... of 12."
Admittedly, #1 doesn't say that, but since DC prints and solicits in advance, there's no way this was a last-minute addition made to each and every cover after issue #1 sales came out. Chances are, they didn't know sales numbers til 2 had already been printed anyway.

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=695

Now after you look up the sales to GL you can tell me how I pull facts out of my ass and don't know what the hell i'm talking about. Good now that you got that out of your system, if you think that Kyle was the main reason why Grant's JLA did so well you're out of your mind.

At work. Not looking through those now; maybe later.

You wanna debate who's a better writer between Grant Morrison or Alex Ross, Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek I can do it all day, the names speak for themselves and all Hal fans who know how to write him. If you wanna defend Marz destroying the entire GL mythos and leaving the one GL, again we can do that all day i'm more than happy to. Geoff unlike either has proven that he can write any type of book and has created one of the best GL runs ever and revitalized the mythos something no one else has been able to do since the SA.

Johns is hit-or-miss. Granted, he's got a good batting average, but not everything he touches turns to gold.

[Darrell D.]

Geoff unlike either has proven that he can write any type of book and has created one of the best GL runs ever and revitalized the mythos something no one else has been able to do since the SA.

No, that is a completely wrong statement. Len Wein and Dave Gibbons had a classic run, and Steve Englehart had a particularly good tenure. Both were better than Johns. I think Englehart had brought the GLC back into the DC universe, creating some great stories with them. Hal was still boring as hell, but the other GL's made up for it.
Oh, and don't forget a couple guys named O'Neil and Adams.

[Jack Zodiac]

First, save the continued spelling insults if they bother you much you can stop responding because they are gonna continue to get worse. Second, to say that the GLC wasn't destroyed to push Kyle as the one true GL is ridiculous and just plain wrong. Third, i'm glad that DC waited until Geoff came along but the Kyle title was given more than enough time it just didn't matter in the end. Fourth, Ion failed just because it did better than current failures does not matter he couldn't convince DC to get his own solo title the fact that he's in several books now can't change that fact.

Is that right? The longer discourse with you goes on, the more incoherent you become? Well, I can't wait.

If "ridiculous and just plain wrong" means "disagreeing with you," sure; but objectively, Kyle becoming Green Lantern and Hal becoming a villain didn't destroy the Green Lantern mythos, it changed it, as it continued to change and evolve the entire decade Hal wasn't Green Lantern. You may not have liked it, but it wasn't "destroyed." As for Kyle's run on the book, it was given so much time because it continued selling well. Especially under Marz. And again, you're definition of "failure" is warped as all hell. Ion didn't fail, whether its intention was to see if Kyle could hold his own book alongside Hal or not (which, honestly, I don't think it was, unless Marz or someone else has said as much). It sold well enough to continue being published for an entire year. A "failure" would be the Omega Flight mini-series Marvel published that didn't see its own end, or Wildstorm's Highwaymen.

Also, how does a fictional character "convince" his editors to keep publishing him? Outside of a couple Ambush Bug comics, I've never seen a character physically talking to his editor. It's up to the fans to tell the editors who they want to see, and apparently people still want to see Kyle, or he wouldn't have had a mini-series, a run in a weekly comic, and a starring role in a team book. Y'know, plus a solid decade of fanfare in various ongoings and mini-series.

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=695

Oh, good! You managed to type coherently in Google and found Comics Buyer's Guide! Now, here's what you do. Just in case you don't know how to do the math:

You add the sales from every issue of Green Lantern #50 until the end of volume three and divide it by that many issues. This gives you an "average." An average is the representation or approximation of an arithmetic. So, after you do your own leg work to prove yourself wrong, you'll see that Marz's run on the book sold well and stop talking about crap you obviously don't know about.

Now after you look up the sales to GL you can tell me how I pull facts out of my ass and don't know what the hell i'm talking about. Good now that you got that out of your system, if you think that Kyle was the main reason why Grant's JLA did so well you're out of your mind.

Sorry, lad, I don't do kids' homework for 'em. I did the math myself when I had my own homework to do, but I graduated from "silly, misinformed comic nerd" to just plain "comic nerd."

And I never said Morrison's run on JLA did so well because of Kyle, I said his run on JLA did well and starred Kyle. So, apparently, you can read as well as you write. No wonder we have so many communication problems. You see, the reason I brought Grant's run on the book up is because you kept clamoring for some silly reason that fans didn't want to see him as Green Lantern, when in fact they apparently didn't give a !@#$ as he was Green Lantern for a solid decade of great sales in two ongoings.

You wanna debate who's a better writer between Grant Morrison or Alex Ross, Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek I can do it all day, the names speak for themselves and all Hal fans who know how to write him. If you wanna defend Marz destroying the entire GL mythos and leaving the one GL, again we can do that all day i'm more than happy to. Geoff unlike either has proven that he can write any type of book and has created one of the best GL runs ever and revitalized the mythos something no one else has been able to do since the SA.

I would love to debate good writing with you, except the longer I read your run on sentences, the more my eyes wanna cry tears of blood. And the fact that you, in my past experience talking to you, have demonstrated near-zero knowledge of past Green Lantern runs, and questionable taste in comics compared to my own, I'd be doing myself a favor avoiding a "debate" with you. I think I can sum it up best by saying, "Kyle was the only Green Lantern for over a decade" and leave it at that, but you seem to contest the credibility of fans supporting a character for ten years under several amazing writers on pure point of opposition alone, which is why this stupid and unnecessary tangent has gone on as long as it has.

Want my posting schedule JZ?, get over yourself if it's that much of a problem to get on a MB and write a response don't do it. Because complaining about how Hal has no characterization and what ever other crap that you just can't get over, has become repetetive and useless but that's just you.

It apparently isn't just me as I've had plenty of people in this thread and others agree with me. And, thankfully, those who don't are at least able to collect their thoughts coherently and express them clearly enough that it isn't a chore responding to them; hell, in some cases, I'd call it "fun," like when I get to talk with Constant or Bored. But if my responses bother you so much, you're perfectly within your abilities to ignore me. You see, to do that, all you have to do is click a button. No writing or spelling involved.

[Raker616]

He never said that. He said that Grant was able to use the character and build on it, and not join in the 'destruction' of the GLC mythos, whatever the hell that is. The GLC obviously wasn't working, hence the bold steps taken.

Huh? Are you saying all Hal fans can write him? Or that only Hal fans know how to write him? You must be a fan of fan fiction.

Geoff Johns is not that great of a writer. He's mediocre, and he just happened to ride to 'greatness' on the huge collective fan masturbation wave.
"He can write any type of book"..as far as I know, he only writes super-hero books. He's not exactly Neil Gaiman or Alan Moore. If I'm wrong, let me know, but I'm hardly going to search for his non-super-hero work, if it even exists. GL: Rebirth was okay, but in the end it's just another super-hero book. It did not deserve the countless accolades it received. His Flash run started good, but then it went to shit around the 'Zoom' arc. He has to have his heavy-handed angst.
Ron Marz is by means a great writer either, but he really didn't destroy the GLC, it was an editorial mandate. Statements like 'Marz destroying all I hold dear, dear GOD, think of the children,' was one of the reasons HEAT was a gigantic joke. I wanted Hal to stay gone because Kyle was a more interesting character, but part of me just wanted to spite HEAT.

Sure Grant was able to write a tolerable Kyle and Brad Metzler writes a good Hal neither did anything with the mythos, except to continue the Kyle is great club and will one day surpass Hal which was laughable.

I am a fan of fan fiction if you consider Rebirth/SCW that then i'm all for it, I think more comic writers should be fans of the characters they write maybe we'd get better books.

By any kind of book I meant any kind of comic book since this is a comic board, Geoff can write anything from Booster, JSA, and GL all are different and all are top quality. Ron did destroy the GLC it was his job and he did it, but lets not lie to ourselves about facts.

[Raker616]

Is that supposed to be some sort of counterpoint?
"Watch out, 'cuz if you don't like my misspelling and grammatical errors now, just wait til you see what I've got coming!"

Marz didn't destroy the Corps in order to make Kyle t3h one true GL.
He didn't see the point in having 3600 of them around -- since one ring itself can do anything, why have thousands of them?

Whether or not he missed the point of the GLC as a source of storylines and characters is another matter, but he did not destroy the GLC to elevate his anointed son.

Ion was written and solicited as a miniseries. It was never meant to be an ongoing.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/ma...0px-Ion_-2.jpg

See? "#2... of 12."
Admittedly, #1 doesn't say that, but since DC prints and solicits in advance, there's no way this was a last-minute addition made to each and every cover after issue #1 sales came out. Chances are, they didn't know sales numbers til 2 had already been printed anyway.

At work. Not looking through those now; maybe later.

Johns is hit-or-miss. Granted, he's got a good batting average, but not everything he touches turns to gold.

Actually it was a joke, it probably won't get worse it'll stay just as bad.

Not a GL fan I can tell, because no matter which GL you prefer the GLC is always been not only a fan favorite but a great addition to Hal's mythos.

Ion was a test to see if Kyle could get his own book Ron pretty much said so on another board, after it floundered it ended but they gave him his chance.

I'll save you the trouble JZ claimed an average of 80k during Marz run which was wrong yet somehow he still can't accept that.

Geoff to me has hit it out of the park since Rebirth but maybe i'm biased but other books like Booster and JSA all have good followings aswell.

[Darrell D.]

Sure Grant was able to write a tolerable Kyle and Brad Metzler writes a good Hal neither did anything with the mythos, except to continue the Kyle is great club and will one day surpass Hal which was laughable.
Seriously, you need to step back and look at what you are posting before you post. What are you trying to say?

By any kind of book I meant any kind of comic book since this is a comic board, Geoff can write anything from Booster, JSA, and GL all are different and all are top quality. Ron did destroy the GLC it was his job and he did it, but lets not lie to ourselves about facts.

What? I know this is a comic book board; are you aware that there are other genres of comics beyond super-hero comics? Geoff Johns writing different super-hero titles does not automatically means he can write 'all kinds of comics'. Maybe you need to clarify your statements.

[Raker616]

No, that is a completely wrong statement. Len Wein and Dave Gibbons had a classic run, and Steve Englehart had a particularly good tenure. Both were better than Johns. I think Englehart had brought the GLC back into the DC universe, creating some great stories with them. Hal was still boring as hell, but the other GL's made up for it.
Oh, and don't forget a couple guys named O'Neil and Adams.

Sorry but I find nothing about any of those runs great or even close to the quality of Geoff's GL run, and i'm not exactly a fan of HTH either.

[Raker616]

Is that right? The longer discourse with you goes on, the more incoherent you become? Well, I can't wait.

If "ridiculous and just plain wrong" means "disagreeing with you," sure; but objectively, Kyle becoming Green Lantern and Hal becoming a villain didn't destroy the Green Lantern mythos, it changed it, as it continued to change and evolve the entire decade Hal wasn't Green Lantern. You may not have liked it, but it wasn't "destroyed." As for Kyle's run on the book, it was given so much time because it continued selling well. Especially under Marz. And again, you're definition of "failure" is warped as all hell. Ion didn't fail, whether its intention was to see if Kyle could hold his own book alongside Hal or not (which, honestly, I don't think it was, unless Marz or someone else has said as much). It sold well enough to continue being published for an entire year. A "failure" would be the Omega Flight mini-series Marvel published that didn't see its own end, or Wildstorm's Highwaymen.

Also, how does a fictional character "convince" his editors to keep publishing him? Outside of a couple Ambush Bug comics, I've never seen a character physically talking to his editor. It's up to the fans to tell the editors who they want to see, and apparently people still want to see Kyle, or he wouldn't have had a mini-series, a run in a weekly comic, and a starring role in a team book. Y'know, plus a solid decade of fanfare in various ongoings and mini-series.

Well here we go, Marz did destroy the GL mythos he didn't change it turning Hal evil, John Stewart getting crippled and Guy becoming The Warrior isn't change. Destroying the GLC, and letting one guy who doesn't fit the criteria of being a GL get a ring isn't change it was the complete and utter destruction of all things GL.

Oh, good! You managed to type coherently in Google and found Comics Buyer's Guide! Now, here's what you do. Just in case you don't know how to do the math:

You add the sales from every issue of Green Lantern #50 until the end of volume three and divide it by that many issues. This gives you an "average." An average is the representation or approximation of an arithmetic. So, after you do your own leg work to prove yourself wrong, you'll see that Marz's run on the book sold well and stop talking about crap you obviously don't know about.

Sarcasm doesn't go well when you tell someone to look something up, then when they prove you wrong you can't accept it and ramble on about adding the average of the comics sales. GL wasn't selling anything near 80k, 2 years after Ron took over you are wrong and instead on making yourself out to be a bigger idiot just accept it and move on.

Sorry, lad, I don't do kids' homework for 'em. I did the math myself when I had my own homework to do, but I graduated from "silly, misinformed comic nerd" to just plain "comic nerd."

And I never said Morrison's run on JLA did so well because of Kyle, I said his run on JLA did well and starred Kyle. So, apparently, you can read as well as you write. No wonder we have so many communication problems. You see, the reason I brought Grant's run on the book up is because you kept clamoring for some silly reason that fans didn't want to see him as Green Lantern, when in fact they apparently didn't give a !@#$ as he was Green Lantern for a solid decade of great sales in two ongoings.

Right and out of nowhere after 10 strong years of being GL, the evil SA fanatics came in and took away the one true GL. Don't let facts get in the way of a good story, Kyle failed as GL and JLA is succesful when the big names are attached to it like Superman/Batma/WW. Kyle was just lucky to be along for the ride, trying to claim any type of credit on his behalf is again just wrong.

I would love to debate good writing with you, except the longer I read your run on sentences, the more my eyes wanna cry tears of blood. And the fact that you, in my past experience talking to you, have demonstrated near-zero knowledge of past Green Lantern runs, and questionable taste in comics compared to my own, I'd be doing myself a favor avoiding a "debate" with you. I think I can sum it up best by saying, "Kyle was the only Green Lantern for over a decade" and leave it at that, but you seem to contest the credibility of fans supporting a character for ten years under several amazing writers on pure point of opposition alone, which is why this stupid and unnecessary tangent has gone on as long as it has.

At least I can agree with your last point these repetetive converstations that we have are gonna go nowhere like before. You are also right that we just have completely different taste in comics, what you claim to be great writting and characterization I consider horrible writting and useless characterization but whatever.

It apparently isn't just me as I've had plenty of people in this thread and others agree with me. And, thankfully, those who don't are at least able to collect their thoughts coherently and express them clearly enough that it isn't a chore responding to them; hell, in some cases, I'd call it "fun," like when I get to talk with Constant or Bored. But if my responses bother you so much, you're perfectly within your abilities to ignore me. You see, to do that, all you have to do is click a button. No writing or spelling involved.

You see I don't take this personal like you, I also don't claim to be some sort of knowledgeable fan that just talks out of his ass all the time. To me this take no time or effort to prove you wrong and just like some people agree with you looking at the poll most agree and in the end I guess that's the final word.

[Raker616]

Seriously, you need to step back and look at what you are posting before you post. What are you trying to say?

My bad I misread your post, you were right Grant did add on to Kyle and didn't add to the GLC destruction. My point was to say that Grant didn't deal with the GL mythos aside from Kyle, and my other point was that I didn't like how Grant tried to join the one true GL thing by saying he'd surpass Hal.

Fan fiction is also know as 'wank fiction'. In other words, it is not a good thing, and the fact that you are a fan of it says a lot about you.

Or it could say something about you, if heard all the insults and arguments regarding the supposed fan fiction that Geoff writes and they aren't very convincing.

What? I know this is a comic book board; are you aware that there are other genres of comics beyond super-hero comics? Geoff Johns writing different super-hero titles does not automatically means he can write 'all kinds of comics'. Maybe you need to clarify your statements.

Sure Geoff can write any type of super hero book, that good enough for you?. I've never had a conversation here about anything other than a DC or Marvel super hero comic, I guess that's why we are not on the same page.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

So far, this run has been awesome, though it dragged a bit in the beginning.

But, holy crap, Jack. Why are you wasting your time with this guy? It's like talking to a brick wall at this point; he's not listening and/or understanding a dang thing you're saying. And worst of all, you've pointed this out to him multiple times, and he didn't care.

He really does sound like someone from the Hal vs Kyle days...

[DarKye]

I gotta say, this whole argument/debate has been pretty fun to read.

Anyway, I haven't read most of Geoff's work but I did enjoy both Rebirth and the Sinestro Corps War. They were no unique masterpieces but they were entertaining, and that's more than okay.


And we're all lucky there wasn't an Internet back when this Jordan fella replaced Alan Scott. Y'know, the one true Green Lantern.

[Darrell D.]

My bad I misread your post, you were right Grant did add on to Kyle and didn't add to the GLC destruction. My point was to say that Grant didn't deal with the GL mythos aside from Kyle, and my other point was that I didn't like how Grant tried to join the one true GL thing by saying he'd surpass Hal.

That was Morrison showing that Kyle was afraid, and by embracing his fear, he would surpass Hal. More of Kyle being the 'everyman' and not a hotshot pilot.



Or it could say something about you, if heard all the insults regarding supposed fan fiction that Geoff writes and they aren't very convincing.

I had actually edited my earlier post, because it was too harsh, so I guess I deserve that. I apologize.

Having Hal Jordan punch out Batman was a fan fiction moment. Not 'bad ass', not 'cool'. It did not serve the story one iota.



Sure Geoff can write any type of super hero book, that good enough for you?. I've never had a conversation here about anything other than a DC or Marvel super hero comic, I guess that's why we are not on the same page.

Clarification noted and appreciated.

My problem with Johns is the fact that he is just servicing the fans; he is not challenging them. He is giving them what they want, not what they NEED. GL fans didn't NEED Jordan back, because once the well runs dry with the stories, what happens? Back to the problem of having a gazillion space-cops and a boring lead character, who is a BADASS! He punched out Batman!!

[Raker616]

That was Morrison showing that Kyle was afraid, and by embracing his fear, he would surpass Hal. More of Kyle being the 'everyman' and not a hotshot pilot.

I see your point on this, I guess it just sounded a bit much to me at the time.

I had actually edited my earlier post, because it was too harsh, so I guess I deserve that. I apologize.

Having Hal Jordan punch out Batman was a fan fiction moment. Not 'bad ass', not 'cool'. It did not serve the story one iota.

It's not a problem, it may be fan fiction but you see as someone who hated the way Batman had been acting in DC for years it was more than justified. Also it fit in with the idea that Parallax had affected the other heroes and specifically Batman, and used him as a tool to question the GL's motives.

Clarification noted and appreciated.

My problem with Johns is the fact that he is just servicing the fans; he is not challenging them. He is giving them what they want, not what they NEED. GL fans didn't NEED Jordan back, because once the well runs dry with the stories, what happens? Back to the problem of having a gazillion space-cops and a boring lead character, who is a BADASS! He punched out Batman!!

I don't see the problem with that, you should give the fans what they want it's just good business. Geoff to me gets at the core of who Hal is and what makes him and The GLC work, the stories are endless when you have such an iconic character and such a great mythos that has been underused for over a decade.

[Jack Zodiac]

Sure Grant was able to write a tolerable Kyle and Brad Metzler writes a good Hal neither did anything with the mythos, except to continue the Kyle is great club and will one day surpass Hal which was laughable.

Holy !@#$! Brad Meltzer wrote a good Hal Jordan? Where was this?

By any kind of book I meant any kind of comic book since this is a comic board, Geoff can write anything from Booster, JSA, and GL all are different and all are top quality. Ron did destroy the GLC it was his job and he did it, but lets not lie to ourselves about facts.

Oh, there's a lot more than just superhero comics, pal-o. And as far as superhero comics go, Johns pretty much has two facets: heavy nostalgia team books and heavy nostalgia solo books. It's tough to claim he could write anything when he really hasn't written much.

Ion was a test to see if Kyle could get his own book Ron pretty much said so on another board, after it floundered it ended but they gave him his chance.

Actually, yeah, I checked Ron's board and in an interview he did say that the book was, in addition to being a complete and concise mini-series, an attempt to see if Kyle could float on his own in another ongoing, but three books around the Green Lantern mythos was hardly going to happen. But the book itself wasn't only published for the sole purpose of seeing if Kyle could draw fans. They don't do that with mini-series. They do it to sell comics, which they did. Almost half a million of 'em.

I'll save you the trouble JZ claimed an average of 80k during Marz run which was wrong yet somehow he still can't accept that.

What I can't accept is that you'll keep talking out of your ass like this without doing the math yourself and realizing how wrong you are.

Geoff to me has hit it out of the park since Rebirth but maybe i'm biased but other books like Booster and JSA all have good followings aswell.

Oh? Because Booster Gold is barely selling as well as Marz' Ion mini-series did, which as you put it was a "failure." But then, I wouldn't expect you to speak about anything you actually knew about, so...

Well here we go, Marz did destroy the GL mythos he didn't change it turning Hal evil, John Stewart getting crippled and Guy becoming The Warrior isn't change. Destroying the GLC, and letting one guy who doesn't fit the criteria of being a GL get a ring isn't change it was the complete and utter destruction of all things GL.

Yes, here we go.

Marz didn't destroy anything. For one thing, the decisions came down from editorial, but again, I wouldn't expect you to actually inform yourself about any of your opinions. That'd be... logical. Marz didn't cripple John Stewart or turn Guy Gardner into the Warrior. Marz created a Green Lantern who, in spite of not being Hal Jordan, survived for a decade with a dedicated fan base, spawned several mini-series, and starred in the premiere team book of DC. Again, it wasn't the destruction of the Green Lantern mythos because it was still rooted in everything about it. And over ten years, not only did writers, with Kyle as the lead, recreate the Corps and Oa and the Guardians and everything you think were the only things about the mythos, they expanded on it. Not destruction. Change and creation.

Sarcasm doesn't go well when you tell someone to look something up, then when they prove you wrong you can't accept it and ramble on about adding the average of the comics sales. GL wasn't selling anything near 80k, 2 years after Ron took over you are wrong and instead on making yourself out to be a bigger idiot just accept it and move on.

I'll tell ya' what, when you prove me wrong, I'll feel like an idiot, but until then, I'll continue feeling just fine.

Right and out of nowhere after 10 strong years of being GL, the evil SA fanatics came in and took away the one true GL. Don't let facts get in the way of a good story, Kyle failed as GL and JLA is succesful when the big names are attached to it like Superman/Batma/WW. Kyle was just lucky to be along for the ride, trying to claim any type of credit on his behalf is again just wrong.

And "out of nowhere," after fifty-five years strong of being Superman, they killed him and replaced him with four other Supermen. It's a sales stunt, just like it was ten years ago when, "out of nowhere," they turned Hal Jordan evil and made some random guy Green Lantern. They've known for the past decade that Hal was coming back at some point. Kyle's sales had absolutely nothing to do with it, and the more you blabber on about it, the more inane you seem.

Once again, you either need to stop being impressively stupid on purpose, or learn how to read. I never made any claims that Kyle was responsible for JLA selling well, but for ten years, the character survived with better than average sales on two ongoings under various creators.

At least I can agree with your last point these repetetive converstations that we have are gonna go nowhere like before. You are also right that we just have completely different taste in comics, what you claim to be great writting and characterization I consider horrible writting and useless characterization but whatever.

Right, in short, you like crap comics and that's quite alright. I like some crap, too, but I can admit it's crap. Entertaining crap, but crap.

You see I don't take this personal like you, I also don't claim to be some sort of knowledgeable fan that just talks out of his ass all the time. To me this take no time or effort to prove you wrong and just like some people agree with you looking at the poll most agree and in the end I guess that's the final word.

Personally? Hardly. I don't hate you, you're just kind of bothersome. If I hated you, I'd have put you on ignore by now.

And it's a good think you don't claim to be some sort of knowledgeable fan, because nobody like a liar.

As for the poll, that's great. People enjoy it, I enjoy it too, because it's an entertaining comic, but it's far from great. It's good, maybe even "above average," but like most superhero comics, it's pretty mediocre most of the time.

My bad I misread your post, you were right Grant did add on to Kyle and didn't add to the GLC destruction. My point was to say that Grant didn't deal with the GL mythos aside from Kyle, and my other point was that I didn't like how Grant tried to join the one true GL thing by saying he'd surpass Hal.

Kyle himself is an addition to the Green Lantern mythos. When before had anyone ever done anything as imaginative as him? Before Kyle, it was all pretty much boxing gloves and machines. After, it was incredibly complex living things like Oblivion. His imagination and its effects on his powers were far different from anything previously done with the role.

Sure Geoff can write any type of super hero book, that good enough for you?. I've never had a conversation here about anything other than a DC or Marvel super hero comic, I guess that's why we are not on the same page.

Have you read anything other than a DC or Marvel superhero comic?

[Raker616]

Holy !@#$! Brad Meltzer wrote a good Hal Jordan? Where was this?

The his JLA run, I have lots of faults with the comic but he usually did a good job with most leaguers.

Oh, there's a lot more than just superhero comics, pal-o. And as far as superhero comics go, Johns pretty much has two facets: heavy nostalgia team books and heavy nostalgia solo books. It's tough to claim he could write anything when he really hasn't written much.

Great but we are here talking about superhero comics so nothing else matters in this conversation, also now you want to compare titles like JSA to his GL run?. Boy you just can't help but keep reaching, the 2 books couldn't be more different and Booster Gold is a whole other animal.

Oh? Because Booster Gold is barely selling as well as Marz' Ion mini-series did, which as you put it was a "failure." But then, I wouldn't expect you to speak about anything you actually knew about, so...

I meant that Booster was of the same quality as his other titles and most people who read the book enjoy it like they enjoy JSA.

Yes, here we go.

Marz didn't destroy anything. For one thing, the decisions came down from editorial, but again, I wouldn't expect you to actually inform yourself about any of your opinions. That'd be... logical. Marz didn't cripple John Stewart or turn Guy Gardner into the Warrior. Marz created a Green Lantern who, in spite of not being Hal Jordan, survived for a decade with a dedicated fan base, spawned several mini-series, and starred in the premiere team book of DC. Again, it wasn't the destruction of the Green Lantern mythos because it was still rooted in everything about it. And over ten years, not only did writers, with Kyle as the lead, recreate the Corps and Oa and the Guardians and everything you think were the only things about the mythos, they expanded on it. Not destruction. Change and creation.

You don't have to defend Marz to me i'm over it, but whether he or editorial or whoever sent the word he was the one who did it and gets the credit or blame. Kyle was not a part of The GL mythos at all, it was a complete and utter destruction and only until much later did they finally decide to incorporate more of the mythos but by then it was too late.

What I can't accept is that you'll keep talking out of your ass like this without doing the math yourself and realizing how wrong you are.

Right because you some how got an average of 80k when in 1996 GL was selling under 60k, and in 1997 not one issue sold over 50k. Do the math anyway you want to but stop being an idiot and admit that you are wrong it's not gonna kill you.

Actually, yeah, I checked Ron's board and in an interview he did say that the book was, in addition to being a complete and concise mini-series, an attempt to see if Kyle could float on his own in another ongoing, but three books around the Green Lantern mythos was hardly going to happen. But the book itself wasn't only published for the sole purpose of seeing if Kyle could draw fans. They don't do that with mini-series. They do it to sell comics, which they did. Almost half a million of 'em.

Great for him but if you honestly think that DC wouldn't have added a 3'rd GL title if it had sold better, then you have little respect for the people who run the company because that would be idiotic and bad business.

I'll tell ya' what, when you prove me wrong, I'll feel like an idiot, but until then, I'll continue feeling just fine.

Again do the math then come back and talk.

And "out of nowhere," after fifty-five years strong of being Superman, they killed him and replaced him with four other Supermen. It's a sales stunt, just like it was ten years ago when, "out of nowhere," they turned Hal Jordan evil and made some random guy Green Lantern. They've known for the past decade that Hal was coming back at some point. Kyle's sales had absolutely nothing to do with it, and the more you blabber on about it, the more inane you seem.

Are you gonna compare Superman with Kyle Rayner now?, GL Volume 3 was a failure and needed to be rebooted instead of doing a sales stunt they decided to destroy the GLC and start fresh. The fact fo the matter is that Kyle was pushed to the moon by DC they did everything to make the fans forget about Hal, but thanks to people like HEAT it never worked or he'd be Barry Allen right now.

Once again, you either need to stop being impressively stupid on purpose, or learn how to read. I never made any claims that Kyle was responsible for JLA selling well, but for ten years, the character survived with better than average sales on two ongoings under various creators.

Again you keep trying to tie Kyle to the popularity of JLA when that is just a silly statement.

Right, in short, you like crap comics and that's quite alright. I like some crap, too, but I can admit it's crap. Entertaining crap, but crap.

I don't read crap that's why I stay away from the comics that I don't like, there is nothing entertaining about crap it's a waste of my time maybe you should try that.

Personally? Hardly. I don't hate you, you're just kind of bothersome. If I hated you, I'd have put you on ignore by now.

Well that's good to know I guess.

And it's a good think you don't claim to be some sort of knowledgeable fan, because nobody like a liar.

Nobody like a guy acting like he's too smart to have a conversation either, you come off as an ass JZ when you're just another guy on a MB talking about comics.

As for the poll, that's great. People enjoy it, I enjoy it too, because it's an entertaining comic, but it's far from great. It's good, maybe even "above average," but like most superhero comics, it's pretty mediocre most of the time.

Right because nobody could think that this is a great comic?, only the comics that someone like you praises can be called that. Again get over yourself, you keep spouting off the mouth and acting like these comics are beneath you if they are why are you even here. GL is a very good comic lots of people think so, if you don't think it is fine but don't try to put down the ones who do.

Kyle himself is an addition to the Green Lantern mythos. When before had anyone ever done anything as imaginative as him? Before Kyle, it was all pretty much boxing gloves and machines. After, it was incredibly complex living things like Oblivion. His imagination and its effects on his powers were far different from anything previously done with the role.

He is now and you can explore his imagination but as a part of the GL mythos not the sole GL. And you should know that Hal was pretty creative with his ring, it's something that hasn't been used nearly as much as it can be check this out.

http://herochat.com/forum/index.php/topic,98771.0.html

Have you read anything other than a DC or Marvel superhero comic?

I read some Image comics back in the day but mostly it's been either Marvel or DC for me but I hope to change that with Superpowers.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

They key point Raker is that Johns had plans for Ion and that Kyle wasn't gonna continue in his own series for that reason. Even with sales over 35,000 . DC decided on what he wanted and handed the character to GL Corps.

And its funny to see a character who held a series for over 10+ years and 131 issues be called a failure. I'm laughin my ass off over it.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

They key point Raker is that Johns had plans for Ion and that Kyle wasn't gonna continue in his own series for that reason. Even with sales over 35,000 . DC decided on what he wanted and handed the character to GL Corps.

And its funny to see a character who held a series for over 10+ years and 131 issues be called a failure. I'm laughin my ass off over it.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

They key point Raker is that Johns had plans for Ion and that Kyle wasn't gonna continue in his own series for that reason. Even with sales over 35,000 . DC decided on what he wanted and handed the character to GL Corps.

And its funny to see a character who held a series for over 10+ years and 131 issues be called a failure. I'm laughin my ass off over it.

[sabongero]

I have to say I've enjoyed the lengthy debate between Jack and Raker. Good points and counterpoints.

[Darrell D.]

You know, if this was Newsarama, somebody would have already posted that old stupid internet meme about 'Winning a argument on the net and special olympics, blah, blah, blah' and a lot of posters who think they're funny would be dropping one-liners, all in the interest of increasing post counts and looking 'witty'.
Thank God this isn't the Newsarama.

I am going to make a few points and gracefully bow out of this discussion, as I feel it is becoming quite pointless and tiresome.




I don't read crap that's why I stay away from the comics that I don't like, there is nothing entertaining about crap it's a waste of my time maybe you should try that.

Comics you like can still be crap; taste is subjective, quality is not. That may come off as elitist, but there it is. No one is persecuting you for the books you like; but please don't act like they are some kind of great literature when they aren't. Super-hero books, while can be done very well, are just that; super-hero books.


Right because nobody could think that this is a great comic?, only the comics that someone like you praises can be called that. Again get over yourself, you keep spouting off the mouth and acting like these comics are beneath you if they are why are you even here. GL is a very good comic lots of people think so, if you don't think it is fine but don't try to put down the ones who do.

The fact that a lot of people like something does not increase its intrinsic value. A lot of people like Big Macs, but to say they are gourmet food is ridiculous. I like a lot of stupid crap, super-hero books among them. I like junk food, and I like gourmet fare as well. The difference is I see it for what it is; enjoyable, disposable junk. Your opinion that Geoff Johns is this great uber-writer is just that; your opinion. It is by no means a fact.

[Jack Zodiac]

The his JLA run, I have lots of faults with the comic but he usually did a good job with most leaguers.

Nah, it sucked hard. Especially the way he wrote Hal. It's like he had a constant boner for Roy. It was weird and creepy.

Great but we are here talking about superhero comics so nothing else matters in this conversation, also now you want to compare titles like JSA to his GL run?. Boy you just can't help but keep reaching, the 2 books couldn't be more different and Booster Gold is a whole other animal.

I'm not the one who was comparing them, you brought it up when you said, foolishly, that "Geoff Johns could write any comic." Which is still wrong, even if you meant any superhero comic.

I meant that Booster was of the same quality as his other titles and most people who read the book enjoy it like they enjoy JSA.

So sales don't indicate quality when Geoff Johns is writing? How incredibly convenient. I'll remember that when the sales figures for issue five come out and it's selling worse than Ion did.

You don't have to defend Marz to me i'm over it, but whether he or editorial or whoever sent the word he was the one who did it and gets the credit or blame. Kyle was not a part of The GL mythos at all, it was a complete and utter destruction and only until much later did they finally decide to incorporate more of the mythos but by then it was too late.

You apparently aren't over it if you're still slavering about him being responsible for the "destruction" of the Green Lantern mythos. That's like personally holding Geoff Johns responsible for the crapfest that was Infinite Crisis. And no, again, you personally might not have liked the changes made by Marz' story, but it was an evolution of the Green Lantern mythos, not its destruction. No more than, in 1959 was the creation of Hal Jordan, Green Lantern, and the Green Lantern Corps the destruction of the previous Green Lantern mythos.

Right because you some how got an average of 80k when in 1996 GL was selling under 60k, and in 1997 not one issue sold over 50k. Do the math anyway you want to but stop being an idiot and admit that you are wrong it's not gonna kill you.

It might. Actually, I apologize, because I was wrong. The average was 60k, after rechecking a post I made sometime last year. The average sales over ten years on the book was approximately 60,000 copies, which in today's market is a successful title. More successful than the Green Lantern Corps title is now, even after its "Sinestro Corps War" bump, and more successful than Johns' Action Comics.

Great for him but if you honestly think that DC wouldn't have added a 3'rd GL title if it had sold better, then you have little respect for the people who run the company because that would be idiotic and bad business.

Well, to be fair, I do have very little respect for the people who run the company, but not because I doubt they'd add another title to the already huge market glut of completely average superhero comics.

Are you gonna compare Superman with Kyle Rayner now?, GL Volume 3 was a failure and needed to be rebooted instead of doing a sales stunt they decided to destroy the GLC and start fresh. The fact fo the matter is that Kyle was pushed to the moon by DC they did everything to make the fans forget about Hal, but thanks to people like HEAT it never worked or he'd be Barry Allen right now.

Green Lantern volume three was as much a failure at issue forty as it was at issue one-forty, otherwise they wouldn't have !@#$ed with Hal being Green Lantern in the first place. And in what universe is "destroying" the Green Lantern Corps and turning your leading hero into a super-villain not a sales stunt, akin to killing off your company's flagship character for a few months, or paralyzing your second-biggest character at exactly the same time?

And no, there is no "fact of the matter" here, because Kyle wasn't pushed any harder than any other character before him. He replaced Hal and filled every role Hal would have, hence his starring role in the ongoing and DC's biggest team book. They didn't jam him down our throats, they didn't plaster his mug all over the place, they just replaced him- and they didn't once try to make us forget about Hal, just like in the twenty-five years since Barry's death have they never once tried to make anyone forget about him. If anything, we're constantly reminded of Hal's existence and history as a Green Lantern just by the very presence of his "replacement."

And seriously, man, you've gotta stop giving HEAT all kinds of unnecessary, undeserved credit. They aren't responsible for jack. They were just a group of exceptionally vocal fans. Unless you're counting the fact that one of them managed to break out of pure comic fan nerdom and get a shot at writing comics, you're so far off base, you're already tagged out.

Again you keep trying to tie Kyle to the popularity of JLA when that is just a silly statement.

No. Jesus Christ, are you thick, or intentionally oppositional? Or can you really not read? This is, like, the third time I've had to, in no indirect terms, tell you that I'm not attributing Kyle's presence to any kind of success JLA had, but that JLA was a successful book, whether or not the Green Lantern du jour was Kyle Rayner or Hal Jordan, because- and this is the important part, so please try to pay attention, and I'll even do you the favor of emboldening it- the fans didn't give a !@#$.

I don't read crap that's why I stay away from the comics that I don't like, there is nothing entertaining about crap it's a waste of my time maybe you should try that.

Maybe I should try reading crappy comic? :confused: I just told you, I read all kinds of crappy comics. Probably a few of the same ones you do, but I'm willing to recognize how average they are. Like Shadowpact. Completely mediocre comic, but I keep reading it because it's entertaining. Geoff John's Green Lantern- above average comic, not great, but at least it's entertaining.

Nobody like a guy acting like he's too smart to have a conversation either, you come off as an ass JZ when you're just another guy on a MB talking about comics.

Well, I am an ass, but I'm a charismatic ass who doesn't have as much trouble expressing himself intelligibly as you.

Right because nobody could think that this is a great comic?, only the comics that someone like you praises can be called that. Again get over yourself, you keep spouting off the mouth and acting like these comics are beneath you if they are why are you even here. GL is a very good comic lots of people think so, if you don't think it is fine but don't try to put down the ones who do.

I'm not putting anyone else down anymore than I'm putting down myself, because I happen to enjoy this somewhat average comic book, too. You can go ahead and keep thinking's great, but that's setting the "great" bar pretty low, I think it'd give you a very limited vocabulary to express how you feel about a comic that's even better than Green Lantern, if you ever get around to reading one.

He is now and you can explore his imagination but as a part of the GL mythos not the sole GL. And you should know that Hal was pretty creative with his ring, it's something that hasn't been used nearly as much as it can be check this out.

A link to a bunch of dead links? Thanks. But as creative as Hal might've been with his ring (to which the extent was typically using his ring to get around obstacles instead of just power-ringing his way through them), his imagination wasn't very vivid, which was the biggest difference between him and Kyle. He was the hotshot test pilot with giant badass fists and rockets and junk, and Kyle was the comic book artist with an army of Liefeldian constructs behind him. Very different and more creative than anything before his run on the title.

I read some Image comics back in the day but mostly it's been either Marvel or DC for me but I hope to change that with Superpowers.

Okay, so you'll be reading a Dynamite superhero book with a bunch of public domain superheroes. Have you ever read anything other than a superhero book? Doesn't matter who published it.

[brett tolino]

I just sat down and read the entire Sinestro Corps story from start to finish in one sitting and was completely and utterly blown away... for the 2nd time (I read them when they came out monthly, but wanted to do the whole sitting thing once I had them all).

Geoff Johns writes with scope, intelligence and boat loads of AWE. This is a story that read like a movie and thanks to Ivan Reis' Grade A art, looked like one too. Think: Star Wars... the 1st one from 1977. It leaves you with the same feeling of... Holy Shit, OMG is this GOOD.

In a day when more and more comics are becoming more of the same old, same old, Geoff and Ivan bring readers the Sinestro Wars to show everyone, originality and imagination are not dead, but quite alive and well, in Green Lantern... monthly.

PS. I've been watching Ivan Reis for a long time now and by doing work on a monthly basis, have seen this guy go from a so-so newbie to a complete and utter professional. Indeed, looking at this guys pages is like staring into a jewelry store where every stone shines.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Nah, it sucked hard. Especially the way he wrote Hal. It's like he had a constant boner for Roy. It was weird and creepy.
.

Yeah I've had posters at the Comm board tell me Meltzer's JLA read that way. That the way Hal would watch Roy dress as Red Arrow was kinda... creepy.

I also take issue with the decision of Meltzer to piss on the Hawkman/Hawkgirl relationship. You spend years bringing the 2 to a passionate moment (Hawkman #48-49) where they finally admit their love. Then you allow a hack like Brad Meltzer on JLA to just wizzz on it. By making Kendra look like a horrible slut character.

[Raker616]

Nah, it sucked hard. Especially the way he wrote Hal. It's like he had a constant boner for Roy. It was weird and creepy.

Maybe that was just your take on it, I never read anything creepy about the way he wrote their relationship.

I'm not the one who was comparing them, you brought it up when you said, foolishly, that "Geoff Johns could write any comic." Which is still wrong, even if you meant any superhero comic.

Yes i'm talking about superhero comics, what else have we been going back and forth about JZ keep up here.

So sales don't indicate quality when Geoff Johns is writing? How incredibly convenient. I'll remember that when the sales figures for issue five come out and it's selling worse than Ion did.

There is nothing convenient about it, i'm refering to the reception of the books Geoff writes meaning how many people that buy the book enjoy it and praise it nothing more.

You apparently aren't over it if you're still slavering about him being responsible for the "destruction" of the Green Lantern mythos. That's like personally holding Geoff Johns responsible for the crapfest that was Infinite Crisis. And no, again, you personally might not have liked the changes made by Marz' story, but it was an evolution of the Green Lantern mythos, not its destruction. No more than, in 1959 was the creation of Hal Jordan, Green Lantern, and the Green Lantern Corps the destruction of the previous Green Lantern mythos.

I don't harbor any ill feelings for anyone or anything i'm happy with the GLU, but I won't lie or sugarcoat what happened with ET. And when the SA counterpart of the Flash and GL appeared they sure as hell didn't kill of the originals or turn the evil hell they even put them on another earth and treated them with respect even afterwards

It might. Actually, I apologize, because I was wrong. The average was 60k, after rechecking a post I made sometime last year. The average sales over ten years on the book was approximately 60,000 copies, which in today's market is a successful title. More successful than the Green Lantern Corps title is now, even after its "Sinestro Corps War" bump, and more successful than Johns' Action Comics.

Well atleast you can admit that you were wrong, I was really starting to question where you were coming from with your insistance that it sold 80k.

Well, to be fair, I do have very little respect for the people who run the company, but not because I doubt they'd add another title to the already huge market glut of completely average superhero comics.

Fair enough.

Green Lantern volume three was as much a failure at issue forty as it was at issue one-forty, otherwise they wouldn't have !@#$ed with Hal being Green Lantern in the first place. And in what universe is "destroying" the Green Lantern Corps and turning your leading hero into a super-villain not a sales stunt, akin to killing off your company's flagship character for a few months, or paralyzing your second-biggest character at exactly the same time?

And no, there is no "fact of the matter" here, because Kyle wasn't pushed any harder than any other character before him. He replaced Hal and filled every role Hal would have, hence his starring role in the ongoing and DC's biggest team book. They didn't jam him down our throats, they didn't plaster his mug all over the place, they just replaced him- and they didn't once try to make us forget about Hal, just like in the twenty-five years since Barry's death have they never once tried to make anyone forget about him. If anything, we're constantly reminded of Hal's existence and history as a Green Lantern just by the very presence of his "replacement."

And seriously, man, you've gotta stop giving HEAT all kinds of unnecessary, undeserved credit. They aren't responsible for jack. They were just a group of exceptionally vocal fans. Unless you're counting the fact that one of them managed to break out of pure comic fan nerdom and get a shot at writing comics, you're so far off base, you're already tagged out.

GL volume 3 was a failure but there is a difference in a stunt like Knightfall or Death Of Superman which weren't permanent like ET was. A stunt to me is something of a quick fix not a permanent change over from an established hero and mythos to something almost entirely new.

Also Kyle was pushed down our throats by DC, they took every opportunity to appease the Hal fans by giving him a heroic death and making him Spectre. Meanwhile pushing Kyle as the one true GL, putting him in the JLA and trying to make him one of the companies biggest stars but if never worked.

HEAT to me was responsible for keeping Hal's name and never letting DC off the hook, they were the voice of every fan who didn't like what they did to the GL mythos and I'll always respect them for that.

No. Jesus Christ, are you thick, or intentionally oppositional? Or can you really not read? This is, like, the third time I've had to, in no indirect terms, tell you that I'm not attributing Kyle's presence to any kind of success JLA had, but that JLA was a successful book, whether or not the Green Lantern du jour was Kyle Rayner or Hal Jordan, because- and this is the important part, so please try to pay attention, and I'll even do you the favor of emboldening it- the fans didn't give a !@#$.

Maybe people just bought JLA because it was a good book, some even bought it in spite of Kyle being in it. See many of my friends didn't like Kyle and they weren't even Hal fans but still bought the book because of the other heroes. Any way you want to phrase it you using JLA to bolster you argument is off base and just wrong. And in the current JLA run they sure seem to care that Hal was replaced by John, hell many GL fans I know bought JLA just for Hal.

Maybe I should try reading crappy comic? I just told you, I read all kinds of crappy comics. Probably a few of the same ones you do, but I'm willing to recognize how average they are. Like Shadowpact. Completely mediocre comic, but I keep reading it because it's entertaining. Geoff John's Green Lantern- above average comic, not great, but at least it's entertaining.

I just don't understand that I can't enjoy a mediocre comic, that's why I dropped JLA after #12. See I find nothing entertaining about bad comics the way you seem to do, the comics I enjoy have to be good to very good and GL that is a great book.

Well, I am an ass, but I'm a charismatic ass who doesn't have as much trouble expressing himself intelligibly as you.

I'm sorry but are you Chris Jericho or something?, you aren't a star or anything JZ you're on a comic board debating GL save the comedy routine for Last Comic Standing.

I'm not putting anyone else down anymore than I'm putting down myself, because I happen to enjoy this somewhat average comic book, too. You can go ahead and keep thinking's great, but that's setting the "great" bar pretty low, I think it'd give you a very limited vocabulary to express how you feel about a comic that's even better than Green Lantern, if you ever get around to reading one.

The term great comic is very debatable but I believe I know from years of reading all types of comics to know one. You believe it mediocre fine but trying to pass yourself off as the final word on what is a great comic is insulting. Everyone has an opinion but to me I feel very confident about the quality of the current GL series, if others don't that's fine but in the end the fans, critics, and sales will have the last word on the subject.

A link to a bunch of dead links? Thanks. But as creative as Hal might've been with his ring (to which the extent was typically using his ring to get around obstacles instead of just power-ringing his way through them), his imagination wasn't very vivid, which was the biggest difference between him and Kyle. He was the hotshot test pilot with giant badass fists and rockets and junk, and Kyle was the comic book artist with an army of Liefeldian constructs behind him. Very different and more creative than anything before his run on the title.

Yeah sorry about the dead links I didn't know most of them were removed, but like that thread tried to show Hal when the used well could do many great and creative things with his ring. I never found the whole artist thing with Kyle to be anything special, to me it just reeked of "see look at this kewl hip GL he can do things that the old one can't even imagine" like most of the '90's heroes there wasn't much there.

Okay, so you'll be reading a Dynamite superhero book with a bunch of public domain superheroes. Have you ever read anything other than a superhero book? Doesn't matter who published it.

Not really i'm a superhero comic book fan, that's what I know and that's what I talk about on here anyway.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Originally Posted by Raker616

Maybe that was just your take on it, I never read anything creepy about the way he wrote their relationship.

Now as a fan who liked Meltzer's Identity Crisis I found his JLA run the most pathetic piece of crappy fanboy writing ever. He really put himself into Roy Harper and just dragged everyone down with it ..... Hal Jordan was made to look like he had been eyeing Roy since he was a teenager and creepy. Kendra was the sexual playtoy for Roy Harper to nail after she saw him with a kid...the rest of the team lacked any direction and was "there". Hal was dropped after becoming written so bad , Geo-Force's plot was dropped and instead of building on Vixen and Roy Harper's getting close in #11 it was dropped.

JLA is a horrible series. Brad Meltzer sucked a load....and Dwayne McDuffie is a lot better .

GL volume 3 was a failure but there is a difference in a stunt like Knightfall or Death Of Superman which weren't permanent like ET was. A stunt to me is something of a quick fix not a permanent change over from an established hero and mythos to something almost entirely new.

Dear lord... this is what makes it agravating. Again with the whole Vol.3 was a failure.

GREEN LANTERN (VOL.3) 1990-2004: 181 ISSUES !!

It was not a failure. This is why Jack and many are sitting here getting tired...Kyle Rayner lasted 131 of those damn issues . A FAILURE is the Teen Tony Stark at Marvel which lasted 8 issues and was retconned from existance. THAT IS A FAILURE !! Not this...this is something that worked....and lasted for a decade .


Also Kyle was pushed down our throats by DC, they took every opportunity to appease the Hal fans by giving him a heroic death and making him Spectre. Meanwhile pushing Kyle as the one true GL, putting him in the JLA and trying to make him one of the companies biggest stars but if never worked.

Hmmmm starring role in JLA for years, took the nod in countless big mega-crossovers. That sad pathetic failure. You need to really ...really know what your talking about. This is whats crazy...you obviously never read anything in the 1990's and just believe DC started up in 2004. You know Hal Jordan's past but your pretty much not really seeing a company that published a line of freakin comics in the 90's.

HEAT to me was responsible for keeping Hal's name and never letting DC off the hook, they were the voice of every fan who didn't like what they did to the GL mythos and I'll always respect them for that.

And HEAT at the end basically in Wizard (I have the issue) begged Marz with this line: "We like Kyle Rayner now...but can't we have Hal Jordan back too ?"

Someone sent that in and Marz answered ...the Wizard was from 1998/1999. They actually liked Kyle Rayner...they were basically hot as hell for years but faded. They admitted Rayner had pretty much grown on them. And it wasn't wrong....it was that Kyle was a character that had identified with many. Yeah Hal was always discussed..because Marz did storylines with him. He would do storylines like the "Emerald Knight" arc where a young Hal meets Kyle.


Maybe people just bought JLA because it was a good book, some even bought it in spite of Kyle being in it. See many of my friends didn't like Kyle and they weren't even Hal fans but still bought the book because of the other heroes. Any way you want to phrase it you using JLA to bolster you argument is off base and just wrong. And in the current JLA run they sure seem to care that Hal was replaced by John, hell many GL fans I know bought JLA just for Hal.

Nope... using the fact you won't accept the character as a bizzare attempt to call it a failure and dismiss JLA and his role there is pretty amusing. I mean wow... Hal Jordan was removed and suddenly a mass exodus of fans happened. But with Kyle there they didn't care in JLA ...what a strange world.


Not many heroes that DC changed got a run as long as Rayner did. If you do some research a lot of "The Failures" never lasted 10+ years with their own title , were in countless events and in a big team series. They aren't...you may not wanna hear it...may wanna cover your eyes...but its the truth.

[Raker616]

I'm I blind or did someone remove my last post?.

[Alex L]

I'm I blind or did someone remove my last post?.
Server glitch.

Yes i'm talking about superhero comics, what else have we been going back and forth about JZ keep up here.
Um... no, you clearly said "Geoff Johns can write any comic."

There's more than just superhero comics out there.

Johns, really, can only write existing superheroes with a LOT of history (i.e. JSA, Green Lantern, Infinite Crisis).

There's nothing wrong with that, it's a great thing to be able to write -- but his self-created things haven't done as well.

GL volume 3 was a failure but there is a difference in a stunt like Knightfall or Death Of Superman which weren't permanent like ET was. A stunt to me is something of a quick fix not a permanent change over from an established hero and mythos to something almost entirely new.

Also Kyle was pushed down our throats by DC, they took every opportunity to appease the Hal fans by giving him a heroic death and making him Spectre. Meanwhile pushing Kyle as the one true GL, putting him in the JLA and trying to make him one of the companies biggest stars but if never worked.

HEAT to me was responsible for keeping Hal's name and never letting DC off the hook, they were the voice of every fan who didn't like what they did to the GL mythos and I'll always respect them for that.

You are being purposefully obtuse at this point.

GL volume 3 was not a failure. It lasted well over a hundred issues with Kyle at the helm.

Failures don't last that long. If your only qualification for failure is that it, at some point, was restarted -- I guess we'd better call GL vol. 2 a failure, and Avengers, and JLA...

HEAT didn't do nearly as much to preserve Hal, as Ron Marz himself.
Emerald Knights, Brave and the Bold, JLA: Year One... all written by one man.

You must not have read much of Kyle's run (not that I would fault you for that, why pay money for a title you don't like?) but they never, NEVER pushed him as the one true GL. For most of his run, he lived in Hal's shadow.

Wally gave him all kinds of sh*t, pretty much for being some kid with a ring/not Hal Jordan.

Kyle, himself, would put himself down for not being Hal.

[david r]

There's nothing wrong with that, it's a great thing to be able to write -- but his self-created things haven't done as well.



I think it's more us fans aren't willing to give new creations a chance.

[Raker616]

Now as a fan who liked Meltzer's Identity Crisis I found his JLA run the most pathetic piece of crappy fanboy writing ever. He really put himself into Roy Harper and just dragged everyone down with it ..... Hal Jordan was made to look like he had been eyeing Roy since he was a teenager and creepy. Kendra was the sexual playtoy for Roy Harper to nail after she saw him with a kid...the rest of the team lacked any direction and was "there". Hal was dropped after becoming written so bad , Geo-Force's plot was dropped and instead of building on Vixen and Roy Harper's getting close in #11 it was dropped.

JLA is a horrible series. Brad Meltzer sucked a load....and Dwayne McDuffie is a lot better.

JLA was medicore as hell but I still don't see what you see about the creepy stuff with Hal and Roy, and Dwayne has done nothing with his run but tell JLU light stories. But it's not his fault I heard DC editorial has something to do with it, and around issue #20 he the stories should be more of his own.

Dear lord... this is what makes it agravating. Again with the whole Vol.3 was a failure.

GREEN LANTERN (VOL.3) 1990-2004: 181 ISSUES !!

It was not a failure. This is why Jack and many are sitting here getting tired...Kyle Rayner lasted 131 of those damn issues . A FAILURE is the Teen Tony Stark at Marvel which lasted 8 issues and was retconned from existance. THAT IS A FAILURE !! Not this...this is something that worked....and lasted for a decade .

You don't have to tell me about GL Volume 3 I know all about it and it was a failure, you seem to get stuck with the fact that it lasted 10 years so in your opinion it couldn't be a failure. Why the title lasted so long is still a big question to me, I wish I knew the answer I personally believe it was stubbornes on their side of not wanting to admit that they were wrong. Regardless, volume 3.5 as some call it with Kyle was meant to make him the sole GL and pass the mantle to him it was passed from Barry to Wally. But you see Kyle could never get over with the fans as GL, because to many of them Hal Jordan was The GL. Kyle could never garner the good will of Wally, so in other words Kyle failed to achieve the goals of the DC Editorial and they finally gave in and brought back Hal.

Hmmmm starring role in JLA for years, took the nod in countless big mega-crossovers. That sad pathetic failure. You need to really ...really know what your talking about. This is whats crazy...you obviously never read anything in the 1990's and just believe DC started up in 2004. You know Hal Jordan's past but your pretty much not really seeing a company that published a line of freakin comics in the 90's.

Right, I never read any GL comics until '04 where the hell have you been I was raised on GL hell since birth, I know what Kyle was a part of and the kind of push he got from DC to try and make everyone forget about Hal. They tried everything they could for years to make Kyle the one true GL, but it never worked that's why Hal is back. Also people seem to take the word failure personally don't, Hal has failed before so have other heroes stop getting emotional over it and be glad that he wasn't killed and is being used well today.

And HEAT at the end basically in Wizard (I have the issue) begged Marz with this line: "We like Kyle Rayner now...but can't we have Hal Jordan back too ?"

Someone sent that in and Marz answered ...the Wizard was from 1998/1999. They actually liked Kyle Rayner...they were basically hot as hell for years but faded. They admitted Rayner had pretty much grown on them. And it wasn't wrong....it was that Kyle was a character that had identified with many. Yeah Hal was always discussed..because Marz did storylines with him. He would do storylines like the "Emerald Knight" arc where a young Hal meets Kyle.

HEAT members begging Marz that I have a hard time believing, even though the ones that I know now do tolerate him and are happy with the current GLU. I don't read Wizard so I can't speak on what they're opinions are on comics but I will say this about Marz EK was pretty good.

Nope... using the fact you won't accept the character as a bizzare attempt to call it a failure and dismiss JLA and his role there is pretty amusing. I mean wow... Hal Jordan was removed and suddenly a mass exodus of fans happened. But with Kyle there they didn't care in JLA ...what a strange world.

Not many heroes that DC changed got a run as long as Rayner did. If you do some research a lot of "The Failures" never lasted 10+ years with their own title , were in countless events and in a big team series. They aren't...you may not wanna hear it...may wanna cover your eyes...but its the truth.

Nothing strange about it, Grant's JLA is one of the best comics DC put out in the '90's people really like it in general, I know people that bought the book inspite of Kyle because it was that good. Brad's JLA was a mixed bag some fans loved it, others hated, and some like me thought it was the most mediocre JLA book ever. When Dwayne took over there was controversy over the Hal/John switch, whether in the end it'll hurt sales is unknown since technically Hal is still part of the roster. Claiming that Kyle somehow helped the success of JLA is unproven at best and IMO reaching to garner Kyle some props to justify his inclusion which is unneccesary in this conversation.

[Raker616]

Server glitch.

Good I really didn't want to type that out again.

Um... no, you clearly said "Geoff Johns can write any comic."

There's more than just superhero comics out there.

Johns, really, can only write existing superheroes with a LOT of history (i.e. JSA, Green Lantern, Infinite Crisis).

There's nothing wrong with that, it's a great thing to be able to write -- but his self-created things haven't done as well.

You are like the 4'th person i've had to break this down to of course i'm talking about superhero comics that's the only thing I talk about here. I'm sure there are lots of other great comics out there but when I say comic I mean superhero comic nothing else. I'm wondering what self-created things has he ever written because I only know of his work on Flash, GL, Booster, JSA, and IC.

You are being purposefully obtuse at this point.

GL volume 3 was not a failure. It lasted well over a hundred issues with Kyle at the helm.

Failures don't last that long. If your only qualification for failure is that it, at some point, was restarted -- I guess we'd better call GL vol. 2 a failure, and Avengers, and JLA...

HEAT didn't do nearly as much to preserve Hal, as Ron Marz himself.
Emerald Knights, Brave and the Bold, JLA: Year One... all written by one man.

You must not have read much of Kyle's run (not that I would fault you for that, why pay money for a title you don't like?) but they never, NEVER pushed him as the one true GL. For most of his run, he lived in Hal's shadow.

Wally gave him all kinds of sh*t, pretty much for being some kid with a ring/not Hal Jordan.

Kyle, himself, would put himself down for not being Hal.

Again maybe it's the word failure that some people are freaking out over but you shouldn't, Hal's run in Volume 3 failed and was very mediocre aside from maybe 10 issues. Kyle was meant to replace Hal, but he never could no matter how hard they tried to appease his fans with Final Night or Day Of Judgement they couldn't. Failing to not be able to replace an iconic hero isn't a bad thing, Kyle is alive now and doing pretty well but his original purpose has changed he is no longer the GL replacement but part of the mythos.

Now The Brave and the Bold and JLA Year One were written by the great Mark Waid not Ron Marz and while EK was good it was nowhere the quality of B&B or JLAYO. You are right that I haven't read that much of Kyle's run, but I know that DC did trout out the theme that Kyle would surpass Hal like in Grant's JLA. They liked to always try to have it 2 ways push Kyle to the forfront and not insult the Hal fans anymore after ET but they could never seem to pull it off.

[Jack Zodiac]

Maybe that was just your take on it, I never read anything creepy about the way he wrote their relationship.

I've seen a lot of people with the same criticism. And it wasn't "creepy," like "wow, Hal's really thinking about boning Roy," but it was weird. It was weird because Meltzer is such a hack for nostalgic crap but awful at writing monologue. And dialogue. And plotting...

Yes i'm talking about superhero comics, what else have we been going back and forth about JZ keep up here.

What is this, a marathon of stupidity? I'll lag behind, thanks. Yes, I know we're talking about superhero comics, but why bother bringing up Geoff Johns' credit as a writer of superhero comics when he's only written two types of "superhero comics?" It's invalid to this conversation.

There is nothing convenient about it, i'm refering to the reception of the books Geoff writes meaning how many people that buy the book enjoy it and praise it nothing more.

But when I bring up the reception and sales of Ron Marz' Ion mini-series, which are comparable to Geoff's Booster Gold, I'm supporting a "failure?" Even in an objective capacity, that's ridiculous.

I don't harbor any ill feelings for anyone or anything i'm happy with the GLU, but I won't lie or sugarcoat what happened with ET. And when the SA counterpart of the Flash and GL appeared they sure as hell didn't kill of the originals or turn the evil hell they even put them on another earth and treated them with respect even afterwards

I do agree that, in lieu of killing him or turning him evil, I certainly wouldn't have minded seeing Hal just retire like Jay or Allen "retired" when their Silver Age counterparts arrived, or Gerard's version of Emerald Twilight that turns him into the Ion-like entity. But again, it wasn't Marz' fault. It was an editorially mandated story, which is why Gerard's story was thrown away in the first place. They wanted something, anything, to shake up the status quo of Green Lantern, and just changing Hal didn't seem like it was going to cut it.

Also, by replacing him, they set him up for an eventual comeback. There's no way Geoff Johns' run on Green Lantern would've been half as successful or popular if it hadn't begun on the coat tails of bringing Hal Jordan back from the dead. Instead of publishing stories about the same character for another decade with nothing new or special about it and seeing the same sad, sorry sales, they replaced him and saw at least average sales for the better part of ten years. In short, we can actually thank Ron and Dooley, and Kyle, for Hal's current success.

Well atleast you can admit that you were wrong, I was really starting to question where you were coming from with your insistance that it sold 80k.

Yeah, I was off. 80k was its sales peak, 60k its average, which is still a modestly successful title. Better than the majority of DC's ongoings right now.

GL volume 3 was a failure but there is a difference in a stunt like Knightfall or Death Of Superman which weren't permanent like ET was. A stunt to me is something of a quick fix not a permanent change over from an established hero and mythos to something almost entirely new.

I don't think, and I don't think they thought, that at the time, a temporary change would've done anything for sales or the character. It was a crap-selling book with a character people thought was stale. They couldn't cripple him or fake his death and expect media coverage like they got with Batman or Superman, because Green Lantern, at the time, wasn't a very popular or successful character. Writing him out and replacing him was practically the only thing they could've done to guarantee some kind of reader response. And it worked, for a while, just like the sales stunts that were Knightfall and The Death of Superman worked for a while.

But I think the wait and anticipation and expectation is a big part of why Rebirth did so well and why Green Lantern initially sold so well and continues to sell well. If Hal had been written for the past ten years instead of Kyle, he wouldn't have seen anywhere near the success he's garnering today.

Also Kyle was pushed down our throats by DC, they took every opportunity to appease the Hal fans by giving him a heroic death and making him Spectre. Meanwhile pushing Kyle as the one true GL, putting him in the JLA and trying to make him one of the companies biggest stars but if never worked.

What did they do besides give him Hal's old position to "shove him down our throats?" He wasn't promoted, he wasn't guest-starred in every series like he was Wolverine or Spider-Man, and he wasn't given his own relaunch. All he did was replace Hal in every capacity a new character would replace an old one.

HEAT to me was responsible for keeping Hal's name and never letting DC off the hook, they were the voice of every fan who didn't like what they did to the GL mythos and I'll always respect them for that.

Well, I think you're giving them far too much credit. They never did anything that would elicit any kind of response from DC's editorial staff, i.e. not supporting any DC titles altogether or boycotting Green Lantern. Editors hardly, if ever, make decisions based on fan reaction. They make all of their decisions based on dollars. If they thought keeping Hal Jordan around after Emerald Twilight would've gotten them more money, they would've. If they thought bringing him back after only five years would've gotten them more money, they would've. It wasn't until recently, long after the clamoring of HEAT had died down to a dull roar, that they found a way to turn a buck on bringing Hal Jordan back, so they did.

Maybe people just bought JLA because it was a good book, some even bought it in spite of Kyle being in it. See many of my friends didn't like Kyle and they weren't even Hal fans but still bought the book because of the other heroes. Any way you want to phrase it you using JLA to bolster you argument is off base and just wrong. And in the current JLA run they sure seem to care that Hal was replaced by John, hell many GL fans I know bought JLA just for Hal.

Really? Those are some sorry ass fans, then, because as flat as I think Johns' characterization of Hal has been in Green Lantern, he was a Shakespearean protagonist compared to Meltzer's Hal. And the fan response to John replacing Hal on McDuffie's Justice League must not be that great since the book is still DC's top-selling title. Like I said, people don't give a crap who their heroes are so long as the heroes being written are being written well, and while Kyle was in JLA, he was written well.

And I sincerely doubt that people would buy a mediocre team book just for one character. If JLA Classified had come out eight years ago and featured rotating teams writing classic Silver Age Justice League adventures, if the storytelling was mediocre, it wouldn't matter if Green Lantern was Hal Jordan or G'nort, it wouldn't have sold well.

I just don't understand that I can't enjoy a mediocre comic, that's why I dropped JLA after #12. See I find nothing entertaining about bad comics the way you seem to do, the comics I enjoy have to be good to very good and GL that is a great book.

Apparently you can enjoy a mediocre comic, which is why you read Justice League for a full year.

I'm sorry but are you Chris Jericho or something?, you aren't a star or anything JZ you're on a comic board debating GL save the comedy routine for Last Comic Standing.

As hilarious as this conversation's become, I'm being completely serious. People love me, and why shouldn't they? I'm lovable.

The term great comic is very debatable but I believe I know from years of reading all types of comics to know one. You believe it mediocre fine but trying to pass yourself off as the final word on what is a great comic is insulting. Everyone has an opinion but to me I feel very confident about the quality of the current GL series, if others don't that's fine but in the end the fans, critics, and sales will have the last word on the subject.

You're a very confusing person, because on one hand you're so very sure of your opinion in fine comic literature that you cite Booster Gold as being a "great" comic, but then on the other hand you relegate quality to terms of sales, which would negate your opinion of Booster Gold being "great" since it sells, in your very own words, along the same numbers as a "failure" of a mini-series like Ion. Even more confusing is your admitting to not reading much outside of Marvel and DC, and less outside of their standard superhero fare, but then bolstering your own subjective opinion about comics with your experience of "years of reading all types of comics."

Everyone does have an opinion about what is entertaining and what isn't, but quality isn't subjective.

[Jack Zodiac]

First time I ever went over the character limit:


Yeah sorry about the dead links I didn't know most of them were removed, but like that thread tried to show Hal when the used well could do many great and creative things with his ring. I never found the whole artist thing with Kyle to be anything special, to me it just reeked of "see look at this kewl hip GL he can do things that the old one can't even imagine" like most of the '90's heroes there wasn't much there.

Well, 60,000 people a month disagreed with you. Or at least weren't bothered by it. Personally, I found it integral to what made his character more interesting than just another superhero clone. Kyle Rayner, struggling comic book creator, was pure comic nerd wish fulfillment in the '90s just like Hal Jordan, hotshot test pilot, was pure comic nerd wish fulfillment in the '50s.

Not really i'm a superhero comic book fan, that's what I know and that's what I talk about on here anyway.

Well, since I didn't ask you above when you indicated an experience in reading "all kinds of comics," care to tell me what kinds of comics you have read?

[Jack Zodiac]

JLA was medicore as hell but I still don't see what you see about the creepy stuff with Hal and Roy, and Dwayne has done nothing with his run but tell JLU light stories. But it's not his fault I heard DC editorial has something to do with it, and around issue #20 he the stories should be more of his own.

Now you're extra confusing. You said Brad's Justice League was great when you responded to me, or rather that you enjoyed it and you "don't enjoy mediocre comics," yet here you admit to its mediocrity.

You don't have to tell me about GL Volume 3 I know all about it and it was a failure, you seem to get stuck with the fact that it lasted 10 years so in your opinion it couldn't be a failure. Why the title lasted so long is still a big question to me, I wish I knew the answer I personally believe it was stubbornes on their side of not wanting to admit that they were wrong. Regardless, volume 3.5 as some call it with Kyle was meant to make him the sole GL and pass the mantle to him it was passed from Barry to Wally. But you see Kyle could never get over with the fans as GL, because to many of them Hal Jordan was The GL. Kyle could never garner the good will of Wally, so in other words Kyle failed to achieve the goals of the DC Editorial and they finally gave in and brought back Hal.

And now you're starting to sound a bit like Tom Cruise ranting about psychology. "You don't know the history of Green Lantern, I do!"

What do you define as a "failure?" Because you've used that term twice now in conflict with your own opinions on comic books. Was it a failure because of how it was written or was it a failure because of sales? Sales-wise, it was far from a failure, and creatively it was at least an entertaining comic that held peoples' interests for a decade, otherwise sales would've declined and DC would've axed it before they even considered bringing Hal Jordan back.

And I still don't see where you're getting this idea that Kyle was pushed anywhere by anyone. Pushing indicates outside forces. Pushing would be like Wolverine appearing in every single Marvel comic published between 1989 and 1998. Kyle replaced Hal and that was it. He starred in two ongoings and had the occasional mini-series. No "pushing." And yet, even without pushing, he was still accepted by tens of thousands of fans.

Right, I never read any GL comics until '04 where the hell have you been I was raised on GL hell since birth, I know what Kyle was a part of and the kind of push he got from DC to try and make everyone forget about Hal. They tried everything they could for years to make Kyle the one true GL, but it never worked that's why Hal is back. Also people seem to take the word failure personally don't, Hal has failed before so have other heroes stop getting emotional over it and be glad that he wasn't killed and is being used well today.

Of course Hal failed before, that's why the killed him off in the first place. Green Lantern was, in your eloquent terms, a "failure."

And again with this "pushing" jazz. What the hell? They hardly ever pushed him down our throats or used him to make us forget about Hal. If anything, he was a constant reminder of Hal, since every time he did anything spectacular in either of his books, his supporting cast would compare him to our Silver Age hero.

EDIT: And to belay another lengthy, multi-quote post:

It isn't the word "failure" people have a problem with, it's how you use it. You used it to describe Ion, attributed to its sales, then used it about Green Lantern vol. 3, presumably attributed to its creativity considering it's modestly successful sales, and then tauted adoration for books of equally "failing" sales and quality like Brad Meltzer's Justice League or Geoff Johns Booster Gold. So, nobody here has a problem with the word, because we all know what it means, what we have a problem with is the way you use it.

[Raker616]

I've seen a lot of people with the same criticism. And it wasn't "creepy," like "wow, Hal's really thinking about boning Roy," but it was weird. It was weird because Meltzer is such a hack for nostalgic crap but awful at writing monologue. And dialogue. And plotting...

Ok I guess, also i'm sure as hell not a fan of Brad either I hated Identity Crisis and would've skipped JLA if Hal wasn't in it.

What is this, a marathon of stupidity? I'll lag behind, thanks. Yes, I know we're talking about superhero comics, but why bother bringing up Geoff Johns' credit as a writer of superhero comics when he's only written two types of "superhero comics?" It's invalid to this conversation.

Actually Booster, GL, and JSA are all different comics dealing with different heroes and stories. There is nothing similar except that all 3 are written by Geoff and all 3 are generally very well received by fans and critics.

But when I bring up the reception and sales of Ron Marz' Ion mini-series, which are comparable to Geoff's Booster Gold, I'm supporting a "failure?" Even in an objective capacity, that's ridiculous.

What reception for ION, i've seen many Kyle fans state that they didn't like the mini and the sales were not up to bar for Kyle to get a permanent book. Also whether or not Booster fails will be up to DC since if you told me 2 years ago that Booster would have a really good comic i'd probably laugh.

I do agree that, in lieu of killing him or turning him evil, I certainly wouldn't have minded seeing Hal just retire like Jay or Allen "retired" when their Silver Age counterparts arrived, or Gerard's version of Emerald Twilight that turns him into the Ion-like entity. But again, it wasn't Marz' fault. It was an editorially mandated story, which is why Gerard's story was thrown away in the first place. They wanted something, anything, to shake up the status quo of Green Lantern, and just changing Hal didn't seem like it was going to cut it.

Also, by replacing him, they set him up for an eventual comeback. There's no way Geoff Johns' run on Green Lantern would've been half as successful or popular if it hadn't begun on the coat tails of bringing Hal Jordan back from the dead. Instead of publishing stories about the same character for another decade with nothing new or special about it and seeing the same sad, sorry sales, they replaced him and saw at least average sales for the better part of ten years. In short, we can actually thank Ron and Dooley, and Kyle, for Hal's current success.

Again you are reaching JZ, Hal was turned evil destroyed the GLC then killed, then turned into The Spectre. That wasn't a set up for his return that was a way of making sure that he never returned and make it nearly impossible for anyone to fix the mess they made. Luckily Geoff Johns arrived and fixed the entire mess in a pretty brilliant way, because honestly I had little to no hope that Rebirth would be as good as it was.

Yeah, I was off. 80k was its sales peak, 60k its average, which is still a modestly successful title. Better than the majority of DC's ongoings right now.

For a while it was but in the last couple of years the numbers were lower than that and that's when I believe the decision to bring back Hal happened.

I don't think, and I don't think they thought, that at the time, a temporary change would've done anything for sales or the character. It was a crap-selling book with a character people thought was stale. They couldn't cripple him or fake his death and expect media coverage like they got with Batman or Superman, because Green Lantern, at the time, wasn't a very popular or successful character. Writing him out and replacing him was practically the only thing they could've done to guarantee some kind of reader response. And it worked, for a while, just like the sales stunts that were Knightfall and The Death of Superman worked for a while.

But I think the wait and anticipation and expectation is a big part of why Rebirth did so well and why Green Lantern initially sold so well and continues to sell well. If Hal had been written for the past ten years instead of Kyle, he wouldn't have seen anywhere near the success he's garnering today.

I don't buy it if they would've let Gerard Jones do his version of ET, and let that ride for a while I believe that Hal would've still been around in the '90's. Obviously we will never know because the didn't, Rebirth to me was a wake up call to lots of older fans that had lost faith in the DCU and they came out in force to support it.

What did they do besides give him Hal's old position to "shove him down our throats?" He wasn't promoted, he wasn't guest-starred in every series like he was Wolverine or Spider-Man, and he wasn't given his own relaunch. All he did was replace Hal in every capacity a new character would replace an old one.

Wasn't Kyle apart of all of DC's biggest events during that time, along with his own book a spot in the JLA and having DC tout him as a star is a big thing. Hal on the other hand was left out of almost all of DC's biggest events and generally was never pushed as a character to the level that Kyle was. But in all fairness that could be my own personal view of things which in this subject could be biased.

Well, I think you're giving them far too much credit. They never did anything that would elicit any kind of response from DC's editorial staff, i.e. not supporting any DC titles altogether or boycotting Green Lantern. Editors hardly, if ever, make decisions based on fan reaction. They make all of their decisions based on dollars. If they thought keeping Hal Jordan around after Emerald Twilight would've gotten them more money, they would've. If they thought bringing him back after only five years would've gotten them more money, they would've. It wasn't until recently, long after the clamoring of HEAT had died down to a dull roar, that they found a way to turn a buck on bringing Hal Jordan back, so they did.

Maybe, but I know i'm not the only one who feels that way on the subject.

Really? Those are some sorry ass fans, then, because as flat as I think Johns' characterization of Hal has been in Green Lantern, he was a Shakespearean protagonist compared to Meltzer's Hal. And the fan response to John replacing Hal on McDuffie's Justice League must not be that great since the book is still DC's top-selling title. Like I said, people don't give a crap who their heroes are so long as the heroes being written are being written well, and while Kyle was in JLA, he was written well.

And I sincerely doubt that people would buy a mediocre team book just for one character. If JLA Classified had come out eight years ago and featured rotating teams writing classic Silver Age Justice League adventures, if the storytelling was mediocre, it wouldn't matter if Green Lantern was Hal Jordan or G'nort, it wouldn't have sold well.

I believe they do but things have calmed down some since Dwayne said that it was not his decision to put John in JLA but editorial and Hal will still show up in JLA. I and a couple of other GL fans did buy JLA for just Hal, but like I said before after 12 issues I can't support something that isn't good so I dropped.

Apparently you can enjoy a mediocre comic, which is why you read Justice League for a full year.

No, I enjoyed JLA for the first 5 issues then when it went to crap after 6 I was just buying it till it ended to support Hal being in the book. After I saw where Dwayne was going with JLA, I had enough and passed on the book and am better for it.

As hilarious as this conversation's become, I'm being completely serious. People love me, and why shouldn't they? I'm lovable.

Really?.

You're a very confusing person, because on one hand you're so very sure of your opinion in fine comic literature that you cite Booster Gold as being a "great" comic, but then on the other hand you relegate quality to terms of sales, which would negate your opinion of Booster Gold being "great" since it sells, in your very own words, along the same numbers as a "failure" of a mini-series like Ion. Even more confusing is your admitting to not reading much outside of Marvel and DC, and less outside of their standard superhero fare, but then bolstering your own subjective opinion about comics with your experience of "years of reading all types of comics."

I never called Booster or JSA great comics they aren't they are good to very good though. Also I only talk about the standard superhero fare nothing else I read and enjoy superhero comics, we keep going over this but sooner or later you'll get it.

Everyone does have an opinion about what is entertaining and what isn't, but quality isn't subjective.

Quality just like everything else is subjective, look at movies aside from generally love classics like The Godfather and Casablance. Most movie reviews can vary from critic to critic and from fan to fan, what you might consider a well written greatly acted movie the next person can consider it a medicre movie that was nothing special and comics are even more subjective.

[Raker616]

Continued from the post above...

Well, 60,000 people a month disagreed with you. Or at least weren't bothered by it. Personally, I found it integral to what made his character more interesting than just another superhero clone. Kyle Rayner, struggling comic book creator, was pure comic nerd wish fulfillment in the '90s just like Hal Jordan, hotshot test pilot, was pure comic nerd wish fulfillment in the '50s.

60k for how long?, again the sales in the last 5 years were below that if they stayed that high Hal would still be The Spectre. I don't find Kyle to me was just another '90's hero much of his appeal succeded in him being cool and having this great imagination with the ring. He wasn't anything that appealed to me for a guy who was gonna wear the most powerfull weapon in the universe. But I guess the good stuff now is that we all get to have our own favorite GL get shine and that is thanks to Geoff and Co.

Well, since I didn't ask you above when you indicated an experience in reading "all kinds of comics," care to tell me what kinds of comics you have read?

Ok, anything from Spider-Man to X-Men, Avengers, Darkhawk, Fantastic Four in Marvel.

In DC mostly, GL, GLC, JLA, JLA International, Flash, Brave And The Bold, Action Comics, Batman.

Now you're extra confusing. You said Brad's Justice League was great when you responded to me, or rather that you enjoyed it and you "don't enjoy mediocre comics," yet here you admit to its mediocrity.

I never said that Brad's JLA was great it was mediocre, Grant's on the other hand was very good.

And now you're starting to sound a bit like Tom Cruise ranting about psychology. "You don't know the history of Green Lantern, I do!"

What do you define as a "failure?" Because you've used that term twice now in conflict with your own opinions on comic books. Was it a failure because of how it was written or was it a failure because of sales? Sales-wise, it was far from a failure, and creatively it was at least an entertaining comic that held peoples' interests for a decade, otherwise sales would've declined and DC would've axed it before they even considered bringing Hal Jordan back.

And I still don't see where you're getting this idea that Kyle was pushed anywhere by anyone. Pushing indicates outside forces. Pushing would be like Wolverine appearing in every single Marvel comic published between 1989 and 1998. Kyle replaced Hal and that was it. He starred in two ongoings and had the occasional mini-series. No "pushing." And yet, even without pushing, he was still accepted by tens of thousands of fans.

That was far from a rant JZ, and until I start mentioning that only Scientology can cure post pardum please don't compare me to that nut. Failure can be both you can have a book fail because it was bad and you can have a book fail when a replacement character doesn't take. Well no one can get the Wolvie push that is just a Marvel thing but like I said when Kyle was around it seemed like he was everywhere.

Of course Hal failed before, that's why the killed him off in the first place. Green Lantern was, in your eloquent terms, a "failure."

And again with this "pushing" jazz. What the hell? They hardly ever pushed him down our throats or used him to make us forget about Hal. If anything, he was a constant reminder of Hal, since every time he did anything spectacular in either of his books, his supporting cast would compare him to our Silver Age hero.

EDIT: And to belay another lengthy, multi-quote post:

It isn't the word "failure" people have a problem with, it's how you use it. You used it to describe Ion, attributed to its sales, then used it about Green Lantern vol. 3, presumably attributed to its creativity considering it's modestly successful sales, and then tauted adoration for books of equally "failing" sales and quality like Brad Meltzer's Justice League or Geoff Johns Booster Gold. So, nobody here has a problem with the word, because we all know what it means, what we have a problem with is the way you use it.

Are you trying to prove a point by repeating what I said about GL Volume3?. Like I said before Ion was a try to see if Kyle could maintain his own solo book the sales came in and the reviews were average so it failed. JLA regardless of the sales that Brad is starting to become a failure, the JLA used to be very anticipated now it's just another book. Booster Gold is a C list hero that is lucky to have a book whether it's a failure because the sales will cancel it is something that we will find out. Unlike JLA and Ion, i've read nothing bad about the book it's actually pretty well praised by reviewers and fans.

[Mr Omnis]

Am I the only one who remembers that Day of Judgment was written by Johns? Merely pointing it out because I thought it blew and was a cheap stunt.

[Will J.]

Am I the only one who remembers that Day of Judgment was written by Johns? Merely pointing it out because I thought it blew and was a cheap stunt.

No, I actually have it, unfortunately.

And you're right. It was the epitome of cheap filler material.

[Mr Omnis]

No, I actually have it, unfortunately.

And you're right. It was the epitome of cheap filler material.

I'll end up buying it one of these days, because it's about The Spectre. But, like Day of Vengeance, it's beyond disappointing.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

JLA was medicore as hell but I still don't see what you see about the creepy stuff with Hal and Roy, and Dwayne has done nothing with his run but tell JLU light stories. But it's not his fault I heard DC editorial has something to do with it, and around issue #20 he the stories should be more of his own.

McDuffie's run has been leaps and bounds better than Meltzer's. Things are actually well... happening. Brad Meltzer would have characters stand around and discuss each other for issues on end. His final issue....guys standing around talking about each other.

McDuffie has even with editoral pushing has delivered a good series where things happen.

You don't have to tell me about GL Volume 3 I know all about it and it was a failure, you seem to get stuck with the fact that it lasted 10 years so in your opinion it couldn't be a failure.

So now your basically acting foolish. Many characters dream of getting a run that lasts over 10 years and 131 issues. Its just moronic as sh-t to claim its a failure at any point. If thats the case poor Exiles... it lasted 100 issues...it was a failure...or poor Avengers (Vol.3) it too lasted about 100 issues....

Makes crap of no sense on any level. This is why everyone is disregarding this FAILURE nonsense.


Why the title lasted so long is still a big question to me, I wish I knew the answer I personally believe it was stubbornes on their side of not wanting to admit that they were wrong. Regardless, volume 3.5 as some call it with Kyle was meant to make him the sole GL and pass the mantle to him it was passed from Barry to Wally.


BWA HA HA HA HA HA.....stubborness at DC. They basically had an "out" the entire way to remove Kyle Rayner. They could have pulled the trigger at any point and brought Hal back. You question why it lasted so long... well lets see : GOOD WRITER+GOOD CHARACTER=SALES....

Trust me...DC would have pulled the trigger had Kyle failed. They did it with Conner Hawke a year or 2 in. Here they basically rode the fan outrage...and then swayed a lot of those angry over time.

Also Kyle had no training...no one to really pass a mantle to him. He was handed a ring by Ganthlet and told "You will have to do." and given instant responsibility.

But you see Kyle could never get over with the fans as GL, because to many of them Hal Jordan was The GL. Kyle could never garner the good will of Wally, so in other words Kyle failed to achieve the goals of the DC Editorial and they finally gave in and brought back Hal.

Its so funny you believe this. Do you honestly believe this ? Because essentially Kyle did garner a lot of good will...and become such a key part of DC they featured him everywhere. And pal... DC Editoral has changed. Its not the same group back in 1994 that made Kyle Rayner "Green Lantern" is there now. Its changed. Basically ...Hal flopped as Spectre ....Ben Raab ruined the Green Lantern book and Dan Didio decided they can make some $$$$ by doing Hal's return...pretty much.


Right, I never read any GL comics until '04 where the hell have you been I was raised on GL hell since birth, I know what Kyle was a part of and the kind of push he got from DC to try and make everyone forget about Hal. They tried everything they could for years to make Kyle the one true GL, but it never worked that's why Hal is back.

Hal was discussed how many freakin times in a GL comic when Rayner was pushing ? He was always claiming he had to live up to Hal's legacy. They did story-arcs ...books about Hal. He was never forgotten for Rayner. Thats why its humerous to watch you rant on how bad DC was for supporting Rayner who was A SUCCESS ! Yep he was...he sold shitloads of comics...took part in big stories....

But they never forgot Hal. Its foolish to keep saying DC pushed that.

Also people seem to take the word failure personally don't, Hal has failed before so have other heroes stop getting emotional over it and be glad that he wasn't killed and is being used well today.

Except Kyle was never a failure....and its foolish of you to keep saying it. Thats why I doubt you never read much in the 1990's. Since its : KYLE SUCKED....RAH RAH RAH....HE HAD A COMIC THAT LASTED 131 ISSUES BUT ITS A FAILURE!

This is why irks me a Jack Zodiac ...the fact your labeling a successful comic that lasted over 131 issues with a character created in the 1990's a failure. Be like me claiming Exiles was a failure or Cable & Deadpool a failure as a series. It would make me look foolish.

HEAT members begging Marz that I have a hard time believing, even though the ones that I know now do tolerate him and are happy with the current GLU. I don't read Wizard so I can't speak on what they're opinions are on comics but I will say this about Marz EK was pretty good.

This was the 1990's and they pretty much had taken to Kyle Rayner. They now wanted both characters kept. Quite a change at bring back Hal , get rid of the new guy. Now they liked Rayner and wanted him to stick. Once I get moved I'll go thru my old Wizard collection from that decade and give the issue number.


Nothing strange about it, Grant's JLA is one of the best comics DC put out in the '90's people really like it in general, I know people that bought the book inspite of Kyle because it was that good. Brad's JLA was a mixed bag some fans loved it, others hated, and some like me thought it was the most mediocre JLA book ever. When Dwayne took over there was controversy over the Hal/John switch, whether in the end it'll hurt sales is unknown since technically Hal is still part of the roster. Claiming that Kyle somehow helped the success of JLA is unproven at best and IMO reaching to garner Kyle some props to justify his inclusion which is unneccesary in this conversation.

You have a GL Book selling over 60,000 an issue....Grant Morrison relaunched the book with the big 7 of the DCU. By god...I think he just proved your reason why Kyle was involved for a sales reason.

[Raker616]

McDuffie's run has been leaps and bounds better than Meltzer's. Things are actually well... happening. Brad Meltzer would have characters stand around and discuss each other for issues on end. His final issue....guys standing around talking about each other.

McDuffie has even with editoral pushing has delivered a good series where things happen.

JLA now being slightly better than mediocre isn't much to brag about, compared to Grant/Waid's run this JLA is a joke.

So now your basically acting foolish. Many characters dream of getting a run that lasts over 10 years and 131 issues. Its just moronic as sh-t to claim its a failure at any point. If thats the case poor Exiles... it lasted 100 issues...it was a failure...or poor Avengers (Vol.3) it too lasted about 100 issues....

Makes crap of no sense on any level. This is why everyone is disregarding this FAILURE nonsense.

Kyle was created to be the new GL like Wally took over for Barry permanently, Kyle was created for the very same reason. After a couple of good years once the hype died down the sales fell, and with many fans still clamoring for Hal DC pulled the plug on Volume 3 that is a failure.

BWA HA HA HA HA HA.....stubborness at DC. They basically had an "out" the entire way to remove Kyle Rayner. They could have pulled the trigger at any point and brought Hal back. You question why it lasted so long... well lets see : GOOD WRITER+GOOD CHARACTER=SALES....

Trust me...DC would have pulled the trigger had Kyle failed. They did it with Conner Hawke a year or 2 in. Here they basically rode the fan outrage...and then swayed a lot of those angry over time.

Also Kyle had no training...no one to really pass a mantle to him. He was handed a ring by Ganthlet and told "You will have to do." and given instant responsibility.

DC was incredibly stubborn the writting was on the wall for years and they refused to bring back Hal, kind of like Flash is a mess right now and they still can't bring themselves to bring back Barry.

Its so funny you believe this. Do you honestly believe this ? Because essentially Kyle did garner a lot of good will...and become such a key part of DC they featured him everywhere. And pal... DC Editoral has changed. Its not the same group back in 1994 that made Kyle Rayner "Green Lantern" is there now. Its changed. Basically ...Hal flopped as Spectre ....Ben Raab ruined the Green Lantern book and Dan Didio decided they can make some $$$$ by doing Hal's return...pretty much.

If Kyle woud've garnered the good will that Wally got then he'd still have the title right now, he didn't and the fans still wanted Hal not Spectre or whatever but The GL.

Hal was discussed how many freakin times in a GL comic when Rayner was pushing ? He was always claiming he had to live up to Hal's legacy. They did story-arcs ...books about Hal. He was never forgotten for Rayner. Thats why its humerous to watch you rant on how bad DC was for supporting Rayner who was A SUCCESS ! Yep he was...he sold shitloads of comics...took part in big stories....

But they never forgot Hal. Its foolish to keep saying DC pushed that.

Just like when Barry showed up to help Wally in Flash, it was all designed to turn the page from the old hero to his replacement but unlike Wally it never too with Kyle.

Except Kyle was never a failure....and its foolish of you to keep saying it. Thats why I doubt you never read much in the 1990's. Since its : KYLE SUCKED....RAH RAH RAH....HE HAD A COMIC THAT LASTED 131 ISSUES BUT ITS A FAILURE!

This is why irks me a Jack Zodiac ...the fact your labeling a successful comic that lasted over 131 issues with a character created in the 1990's a failure. Be like me claiming Exiles was a failure or Cable & Deadpool a failure as a series. It would make me look foolish.

And again you'd be wrong, if volume 3 were as succesfull as you claim Hal would still be dead it wasn't no matter how long it lasted it failed.

This was the 1990's and they pretty much had taken to Kyle Rayner. They now wanted both characters kept. Quite a change at bring back Hal , get rid of the new guy. Now they liked Rayner and wanted him to stick. Once I get moved I'll go thru my old Wizard collection from that decade and give the issue number.

I don't think HEAT ever officially took a stand on Kyle Rayner they always wanted the return of Hal, but many HEAT members that I knew never liked him even after he was GL for several years.

You have a GL Book selling over 60,000 an issue....Grant Morrison relaunched the book with the big 7 of the DCU. By god...I think he just proved your reason why Kyle was involved for a sales reason.

If it would've sold 60k for longer Kyle would still be around it didn't, but luckily for him he's still around and his fans get to enjoy him.

Anyway it's not like we are gonna change our minds, so i'm gonna leave it here and then probably make a last response to JZ's next post. While we can argue about the past hopefully we can all enjoy the current GL run which is what the thread and the poll are about take it easy.

[Ron Marz]

Wow, still at it here?

In the interest of saving you guys time better spent experiencing the real world, here you go. Raker is laboring under a great many wrong assumptions. That's cool if Hal Jordan is your favorite, but in actuality, most of your "facts" are colored by your opinions, so most of your "facts" are completely in error. Not a big deal, really, but these back-and-forth arguments become kind of moot when so many of the discussion points have no basis in reality.

It's great to have passion about comics, but a little perspective is good too.

[Raker616]

Well Ron you can feel free to correct any "facts" that I got wrong, if it's not that big a deal then fine because really another repetetive back and forth isn't gonna help anything. The fact of the matter is we are all biased in a way by what happened with ET and the Hal/Kyle thing, but after a while the arguments become as stale as this one has. So I guess i'll just leave it with this final post and let whoever else wants to say their piece say it and end it.

[Gonzalez]

I think that Geoff Johns carries his obsession with continuity way too far. He can run with the ball he's given, but he has a hard time throwing it somewhere new.

In his run on The Teen Titans, I didn't like his retrofitting the Church of Brother Blood so that it turns out they really worship Trigon. I think that's just lazy and unimaginative. It's too easy, and it doesn't at all fit the tone of what Marv Wolfman so elegantly established, as a psychotic charisma cult where the leader is empowered by the whipped-up fanaticism of the members.

I honestly think that the whole "demon Parallax" thing was a cop-out, and that even destroying Coast City by Mongul during Reign of the Superman, all so that Hal Jordan could be scripted to go berserk and destroy the entire corps, was just a lazy and unimaginative choice in the first place. All it means is that none of the writers or editors at the time knew what to do with Hal Jordan any longer, so they killed him.

Eventually they would have to bring him back, of course, and I think it was then that they thought of really getting into the whole Chuck Yeager "Right Stuff" subplot to Jordan's character and life.

I really think the reason we keep having new Earth Green Lanterns, is that there's never really been a strong and defining psychological struggle -- usually from childhood -- which defines the central character, Hal Jordan... and that's why you keep having to introduce new GL's, because nobody's yet figured out what to do with him as a person, and so he isn't very interesting as an archetype.

Ultimately, his appeal lies in the visual appeal of his amazing powers, and the visual appeal of him as a dashingly good-looking male model-type in an unusually striking costume design. But eye candy alone isn't enough to sustain interest in a character for long and, quite frankly, Guy Gardner is much, much more interesting as a personality and as a person with a clear and compelling philosophy of life.

John Stewart was created to sell comics by appealing to racial tensions during the 1960's. And Kyle Rayner was created out of some feckless desperation for something "hip" and "fresh", during the vacuous decade of the 1990's. Now these pointless characters exist and have to be maintained and justified forever, just like any ill-conceived bureaucratic department. A nightmare.

Anyhow, my point with all of this was to point out that this is the sort of continuity mess that Geoff Johns was hired to straighten out. I just wish that there was some other way to accomplish it, without having to be a retrofitting slave to all the poor editorial decisions of the past. I suppose that, given the fetish for continuity that is so prevalent, he does a pretty good job of it, but I also think that developing characters as creatures of real profundity is much more important than focusing on continually performing sideshow contortions to iron out continuity messes from shortsighted plot developments.

[Jack Zodiac]

Ok I guess, also i'm sure as hell not a fan of Brad either I hated Identity Crisis and would've skipped JLA if Hal wasn't in it.

I still can't understand the mentality in supporting a bad comic, or a comic you don't like, just for the character. Especially a team book.

Actually Booster, GL, and JSA are all different comics dealing with different heroes and stories. There is nothing similar except that all 3 are written by Geoff and all 3 are generally very well received by fans and critics.

No, what's similar is that they're all about your standard superheroes and superhero teams. There's nothing special or different about any of them like you'd find in comparing books like B.P.R.D. or Umbrella Academy to Justice League or Teen Titans. Or Morrison's Doom Patrol to Byrne's Doom Patrol.

What reception for ION, i've seen many Kyle fans state that they didn't like the mini and the sales were not up to bar for Kyle to get a permanent book. Also whether or not Booster fails will be up to DC since if you told me 2 years ago that Booster would have a really good comic i'd probably laugh.

The 36,000 readers' reception to Ion, which is what we were just talking about. Critically, I didn't hear anything damning about it from all but a few people online. And whether or not Booster Gold succeeds won't be up to DC, it'll be up to the fans. Right now, it's selling well enough to continue publishing at least, just like Green Lantern was for ten years.

Again you are reaching JZ, Hal was turned evil destroyed the GLC then killed, then turned into The Spectre. That wasn't a set up for his return that was a way of making sure that he never returned and make it nearly impossible for anyone to fix the mess they made. Luckily Geoff Johns arrived and fixed the entire mess in a pretty brilliant way, because honestly I had little to no hope that Rebirth would be as good as it was.

Y'know, Geoff Johns was responsible for part of the little "mess" you keep moaning about. He wrote the mini-series that turned Hal Jordan into The Spectre. As a former HEAT member, he was, if you'll appreciate the pun, warming Hal Jordan up for his return. You see, DC had been planning to bring Hal Jordan back for quite a while, they just didn't know how to do it in a way that would make them a lot of money until Johns came along with his big plan.

For a while it was but in the last couple of years the numbers were lower than that and that's when I believe the decision to bring back Hal happened.

No, the decision had been made long before Winick ran the title into the ground, they were just waiting for the right time to make the most money off of it.

I don't buy it if they would've let Gerard Jones do his version of ET, and let that ride for a while I believe that Hal would've still been around in the '90's. Obviously we will never know because the didn't, Rebirth to me was a wake up call to lots of older fans that had lost faith in the DCU and they came out in force to support it.

They came out in force to support Hal, who'd been gone for a decade, but if Jones had published the story he wanted and Hal had remained a part of the DCU for those ten years, he would've never seen the great revival Geoff has given him today. That's pretty inarguable.

Wasn't Kyle apart of all of DC's biggest events during that time, along with his own book a spot in the JLA and having DC tout him as a star is a big thing. Hal on the other hand was left out of almost all of DC's biggest events and generally was never pushed as a character to the level that Kyle was. But in all fairness that could be my own personal view of things which in this subject could be biased.

I think you are, because Kyle wasn't forced into anything. Any part he played in any event DC published during his ten years as a main character was only because of his role as a Justice League member.

Maybe, but I know i'm not the only one who feels that way on the subject.

No, I'm sure the rest of HEAT does, too...

I believe they do but things have calmed down some since Dwayne said that it was not his decision to put John in JLA but editorial and Hal will still show up in JLA. I and a couple of other GL fans did buy JLA for just Hal, but like I said before after 12 issues I can't support something that isn't good so I dropped.

Later in your responses, you say you believe that Meltzer's Justice League was mediocre, yet you supported it for an entire year... for one character? Who was, in my opinion, written very poorly? And earlier, you claim that you couldn't support a book you didn't enjoy, hence you didn't read crappy comics? Confusing.

No, I enjoyed JLA for the first 5 issues then when it went to crap after 6 I was just buying it till it ended to support Hal being in the book. After I saw where Dwayne was going with JLA, I had enough and passed on the book and am better for it.

Well, I think you would've been better for it a year ago.

Really?

Sure, watch this.

Hey, Super? Who do ya' love?

I never called Booster or JSA great comics they aren't they are good to very good though. Also I only talk about the standard superhero fare nothing else I read and enjoy superhero comics, we keep going over this but sooner or later you'll get it.

Geoff can write anything from Booster, JSA, and GL all are different and all are top quality.

And sooner or later, you'll get that "all types of comics" doesn't just mean anything from Spider-Man to Justice League, but anything from All-Star Superman to Mouse Guard to American Born Chinese or Scalped.

Quality just like everything else is subjective, look at movies aside from generally love classics like The Godfather and Casablance. Most movie reviews can vary from critic to critic and from fan to fan, what you might consider a well written greatly acted movie the next person can consider it a medicre movie that was nothing special and comics are even more subjective.

No, there clearly are objective criteria for everything from writing to directing to acting to drawing. For instance, when someone is trying to create realism in art, they can't have bizarrely disproportionate anatomy and expect to be critically praised for their work. And in writing comics, when someone is writing established characters, it helps to write within the established parameters of those characters. Or when someone's writing a drama, it helps if the drama's real and emotional and not forced and ridiculous (read: Winick's latest Green Arrow/Black Canary).

60k for how long?, again the sales in the last 5 years were below that if they stayed that high Hal would still be The Spectre. I don't find Kyle to me was just another '90's hero much of his appeal succeded in him being cool and having this great imagination with the ring. He wasn't anything that appealed to me for a guy who was gonna wear the most powerfull weapon in the universe. But I guess the good stuff now is that we all get to have our own favorite GL get shine and that is thanks to Geoff and Co.

60k average, remember. You add all the numbers and divide them by that many numbers. You remember. Yes, the last years of the title saw more along the lines of 40k, still a modest selling title, but nowhere near the line of cancellation. And please, stop deluding yourself or justifying yourself or whatever you're doing by attributing Hal's return to the book's "poor" sales. It was all planned out well ahead of time to make the maximum amount of profit.

Ok, anything from Spider-Man to X-Men, Avengers, Darkhawk, Fantastic Four in Marvel.

In DC mostly, GL, GLC, JLA, JLA International, Flash, Brave And The Bold, Action Comics, Batman.

Right, so by "all kinds of comics" you meant "all kinds of standard superhero comics."

I never said that Brad's JLA was great it was mediocre, Grant's on the other hand was very good.

Well, you did say you couldn't read mediocre comics, but I'm well past that point now.

[Jack Zodiac]

That was far from a rant JZ, and until I start mentioning that only Scientology can cure post pardum please don't compare me to that nut. Failure can be both you can have a book fail because it was bad and you can have a book fail when a replacement character doesn't take. Well no one can get the Wolvie push that is just a Marvel thing but like I said when Kyle was around it seemed like he was everywhere.

I'm sure it was just you, because the guy wasn't anywhere he didn't need to be, just anywhere you'd find a Green Lantern or a Justice League member. And, so we're clear, you don't have any real definition for "failure," it's just what you use to describe things you don't like. Despite it's good sales, Green Lantern was a failure because you didn't like the book, but a book that sells much, much poorer than that, like Booster Gold, isn't a failure because you find it entertaining.

Are you trying to prove a point by repeating what I said about GL Volume3?. Like I said before Ion was a try to see if Kyle could maintain his own solo book the sales came in and the reviews were average so it failed. JLA regardless of the sales that Brad is starting to become a failure, the JLA used to be very anticipated now it's just another book. Booster Gold is a C list hero that is lucky to have a book whether it's a failure because the sales will cancel it is something that we will find out. Unlike JLA and Ion, i've read nothing bad about the book it's actually pretty well praised by reviewers and fans.

And here you call a title that's still DC's top-selling book a "failure" because you don't like the writer. And once again, I never heard anything about Ion being a test run for a new series, and I never heard any of this negative critical response you claim was everywhere and why the book "failed." Meanwhile, I don't hear much of anything, good or bad, about Booster Gold, which is selling as well as Ion had, yet it isn't a "failure" in any of the many bizarre definitions you have for the word.

You're becoming more and more confusing the longer this goes on, man.

[ScottWilliams]

I haven't read GL in a while but planned on picking it back up soon. This thread gives a lot of opinions, and I think I'll definately be picking up some GL the next time I go to the shop. :)

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[Jake1823]

Johns isn't my favorite writer, honestly. I find his work to be good, but not always great, like a lot of people say.

But I didn't care at all about the GL's before I read his run, and now, the book's one of my favorite reads.

[Umberto]

Geoff has done a good work in both series IMO. :)

[PretenderNX01]

I"m loving Johns' run right now. I really enjoy the whole Crops aspect and the Sinestro Corps war (which also had other writers involved) is quite possibly the best "event" DC has published in years. And it was barely mentioned out side of the GL titles. Too bad for DC.

Now as to Hal vs Kyle, both have had great stories and both have had mediocre ones. It depends on who is writing a character as to whether their interesting characters or not.

It also depends on who is your favorite as to whether they're being replaced was a bad idea or a bold one:

Kyle fans will claim Hal and the Corps were failing either creatively or financially, so DC was "bold" and replaced them with Kyle.

Hal fans will claim that Kyle without Corps was a failure either creatively or financially, and was "bold" to replace to bring Hal back.

I personally feel with the Corps back there is room enough in the DCU for the both of them. :cool:

[guyjo]

Hal has been just about my favorite hero in the DCU, and I love what Johns is doing with him and the Corps.
I don't mind Kyle, there's plenty of room in GL Corps for him and the others.

[The Ray]

The best thing Johns did was bring back the GLC and write big loud arcs with lots of actions.

[xarathos]

I'm not much of a DC reader, but I've some recent issues over the past year. I think it's really good.

http://www.geocities.com/alexicron/Dr.Goodbye.jpg

[SMKSPY]

Crap...can't believe I just read this entire thread. Its been hilariously entertaining...pointless, but nevertheless entertaining.

On topic, John's GL (and Fables also) is probably the only reason I still continue to read comics right now given it rather sad state of affairs. Its been a really fun and entertaining book, and its been wonderful that Hal is back. Hal Jordan is Green Lantern...at least the Corps version. Personal life present or not, seeing him in that role has long been absent, and is a welcomed return.

Oh, and yeah, no matter how much I hated Kyle being the of Green Lantern Vol.3 for much of the series it was not a failure. Yes, the book was ruined at the end of its run, but it can't be considered a failure. Thats like saying the first 80ish issues of Exiles was a failure because Claremont ruined the final issues. Also, I took Hal's interest in Roy has nothing more than him being extremely proud of him in a fatherish way for making the big leagues. Kinda like he did when Wally joined the league. Sure the whole plot hurt the flow of the book, but his and Canary's reaction were perfectly in character.

[MrPalen]

Well I thought Sinestro Corps War was a pretty fun story overall. I found it a little disturbing the extent to which the writers seemed to really want to take Kyle down though.

- No you're not special, you just have this power-fish inside you
- No, you're not special, we just had to settle for you until we could find this Superman guy
- You can still be a green lantern but we're going to make you wear this dumb mask again

I've always hated the whole blame-it-on-the-fear-monster retcon, but in this story it seemed to go even a step further, showing with Kyle-Parallax that it wasn't just that the yellow-fear-monster corrupted you, it actually just did everything and you weren't a part of it in any way. The original Parallax was a far more interesting character than this multi-fanged cackling idiot.

One aspect of the writing that I think is a bit weak is the over-reliance on "evil twin" or "mirror" plot devices. Parallax is a yellow fear monster, so Ion will be a green willpower monster! Green Lanterns are green, so let's see how many other colours I can think of and make Lanterns for each one! This bit about blue, orange, red, indigo (indigo??) etc lanterns is a bit much. And the idea that they each run on different emotions I think doesn't make all that much sense. Willpower makes sense for these rings, because you have to "will" all these constructs into existence. Fear? Sinestro was "fearing" constructs into existence? No, it's still just willpower put to a different purpose. Purple rings will "love" things into existence? Orange ones will "greed" things into existence? It's a little clutzy.

The Sinestro Corps story was still great fun to read despite all this however.

[Slaughter]

MrPalen, Johns already said on a interview that the Yellow Rings also require great willpower to use.

I think the Sinestro Corps is so good a ideia that you find it odd that no one ever thought of that before. Johns and friends pretty much brought the Green Lantern mythos to a golden-age until 2009. I love how Johns and Gibbons writes them as a true police force and everyone's is himself. I loved how the Sinestro Corps War had a impact upon the Corps - It was'nt one of these stories where a lot of people would die and, in the following day, no one ever thinks about what happened. Sinestro Corps War changed the Green Lantern Corps, hopefully forever.

And Johns' and Gibbons' portraial of Sinestro is the best one I've ever seen. It's NOT about revenge, but it's about what should one do in the name of keeping order with the universe. Should a corps of policemen with the most powerful weapon of the universe kill or use fear to keep order?

[sabongero]

I was wondering, with the classic Sinestro Corps War storyarc, following it up with an origin story of Hal Jordan, that the series might seem stale to readers who just enjoyed a classic epic story.

[mr. batman]

Geoff Johns is doing a wonderful job on GL

[Usernamessd]

It produced one of the best DC events in a long time and questioned Didio's outlook on Countdown (NOT Tie-ing into every single book on the stands),So yes.

[captainsneverdead]

Johns' run on Green Lantern is great, it took an aging character I had no interest in before, and helped make him one of my favorite ongoing characters. To invigorate such a movement is good in my book

[enediol]

Overall I've enjoyed Green Lantern but the current Secret Origin arc seems to be dragging.

[Teh m0nk3y]

I've found the non-Sinestro Corps War related issues to be merely okay.
I liked how the Alpha Lanterns were handled but other than that I prefer the Corps over Hal Jordan. I think the only story I've enjoyed before Sinestro Corps War was the one with the return of the Lost Lanterns.

[josh straightedge]

I like what he has done with Green Lantern, but I still wish it wasn't Hal Jordan. I don't like the character. I wish it was Kyle. Hal comes off as too much of a badass to me and he's too much of a man-slut douchebag sometimes too. It's cool I guess. In fact, it could be about any other GL and I'd like it more.

I'm one of the minority on this one. I accept that.

[Raker616]

Funny how before Secret Origins everyone was complaining about how they wanted more characterization and less action packed stories. Now it's the opposite looks like you just can't please all comic fans because no matter what you do someone complains about it.

[Jack Zodiac]

Everyone being me and one other person? Now I like the book and everyone else is complaining. It's a nice change of pace. I'll go back to thinking it's just mediocre in a few months, though, I'm sure.

[Raker616]

I actually wasn't talking about you Jack, but i'm glad your enjoying it for now.

[SirIvy]

I am really enjoying his work on the book. I just think John Stewart needs an arc soon to flesh out his character.

[sabongero]

Obviously after a mega-cosmic universe-spanning event like Sinestro War, some character-driven stories in this title will seem like a sort of a "letdown". But even still. I am still liking the work here by Geoff Johns.

[BatWing]

Just started with the Green Lantern comic, and the first issue I bought happened to be the first part of the Secret Origin storyline. A big coincidence, but I thought it was an excellent read.

[Lupek]

To me, this is DC's best superhero book, and though very different, right up there with Brubaker's Captain America as the 2 best superhero books going today.

It's been consistently good to great and only seems to get better.

[Jim Thompson]

Johns work on Green Lantern is the first time I've ever enjoyed a Green Lantern story with Hal Jordan. This is one of the better runs I've ever read.

[miss_terry]

The Verdict is 5 Stars. I love Geoff's work here in GL.

[sabongero]

Have to agree with those that said this is DC's best ongoing title over the last couple of years. And the next epic storyline is coming up in several months, "In Blackest Night". I wonder if they have to kill-off a Green Lantern of sector 2814 (Earth).

Was I correct about that sector number ?

[Raker616]

Yes you're correct about the sector number, with of course Hal being 2814.1 and John being 2814.2.

[miss_terry]

I love Geoff's work on this title. I wish I can comment more, but most of the posters summed it up well. Geoff really revitalized this GL franchise. Look at the solid work on this, and the solid work of other DC writers on the sister publication, Green Lantern Corps. Amazing, and to think, that if it wasn't for Green Lantern: Rebirth, we wouldn't have had the Sinestro Corps War.

[brb2323]

This is one of my favorite books on the shelves each month. In one of the interviews that Grant Morrison does for Final Crisis each issue, he said Green Lantern is currently his favorite comic. Pretty high praise I think.

[Gutter Runner]

I have read the entire thread which has been entertaining and informitive, but I just wanted to add my pennies.

I am a long time comics reader and I have to say that I have never been even remotely interested in the Green Lanterns before I read the Johns run. The guy can really write. I have always been a Legion fan and my interest in GL came from my excitement in the work he has done with the Legion characters.

The imiginative scope of the Scinestro Corps and Lanterns of the Emotional Spectrum has been thrilling and exciting and has found a way to breathe new life and depth into a well established order. Yes, I understand how an army of alien fear mongers might strike a chord more directly than the idea of a Greedy Orange Lantern or Lanterns of Compassion, but I am going to give Johns the benefit of the doubnt that he has thought well and hard about this in ways that will be exciting and interesting.

The Emotional Spectrum thing brings up a lot of qustions, but I look at it as a positive. I loved the hidden yellow impurity concept. Simply from a color theory basis.. it is impossible to have green without yellow. How does this make us reconsider the Green Lanterns? Willpower isn't an emotion, and I wonder if there is something that will be developed here. The Green Lanterns are sentients who have the capacity to overcome great fear... They are defined by their ability to combat fear/yellow, which is an ingerent part of them (yellowness in green/Parallax trapped in Lanterns). So I am wondering if there is going to be a connection between The Green Lanterns being some sort of combo of Hope and Fear; which in my mind could mean Green represents Courage or Valor or something.

In anycase, Johns has just blown this universe wide open. Sinestro Corps was terrifying and gripping. We could see heroes or Lanterns we already know continue to become part of the other Lanterns. The Guardians are finally interesting. The Blackest Night has been set up beautifully. Guy seems to be on the rise, which is great. The character has rarely been written with so compellingly as he has in GL and GLC- not to mention all the new characters in GLC that have been outstanding.

This reader has really enjoyed this run.

In Johns I trust.

[Liberty Belle Fan]

My opinion so far? Greatest comic I have ever read - hands down!

[Alex L]

The Emotional Spectrum thing brings up a lot of qustions, but I look at it as a positive. I loved the hidden yellow impurity concept. Simply from a color theory basis.. it is impossible to have green without yellow. How does this make us reconsider the Green Lanterns? Willpower isn't an emotion, and I wonder if there is something that will be developed here. The Green Lanterns are sentients who have the capacity to overcome great fear... They are defined by their ability to combat fear/yellow, which is an ingerent part of them (yellowness in green/Parallax trapped in Lanterns). So I am wondering if there is going to be a connection between The Green Lanterns being some sort of combo of Hope and Fear; which in my mind could mean Green represents Courage or Valor or something.

Just for the sake of encyclopedia-ism...

The 'yellow impurity' has always been written in.

It used to be that the green was the Guardians' blue mental energies coupled with a yellow impurity that was necessary to let the GL's use that power.

(To the best of my knowledge, what that impurity was, was never explained -- perhaps a part in the metal used to construct the rings.)

So the rings were never effective against yellow, ever.

This was changed without explanation when Hal destroyed the Corps and Kyle was given the last Green Lantern ring back in the 90's. If I recall correctly, writer Ron Marz thought the yellow weakness was pretty silly.

Yellow-Fear Monster helps explain why the weakness suddenly went away.

[sabongero]

In Johns I trust.

Gutter Runner, you summed it up in those last four words of your post. This Green Lantern should only be entrusted to Geoff Johns.

[burtle]

Johns made me care about The Flash, as far as I'm concerned I will buy anything he writes now.

[Phantom Druid]

Well, I have some catching up to do, but I picked up the GL Secret Origins #1-4 this last weekend, and I really enjoyed them. I plan on goin' back and getting all the Sinestro War issues as well. I think Green Lantern just might be a main stay for me at this point. lookin' good.

[BUDSHAD]

I really like the current run by Johns. I am really digging the Origin Story.

[Jarath]

I loved the hidden yellow impurity concept. Simply from a color theory basis.. it is impossible to have green without yellow.

Only true if you are talking about mixing paint. In the light spectrum green is infact a primary colour and yellow isn't.


Back on the thread topic though. Johns' writing has brought me into the GL universe and I am loving it, the wait between trades being released is horrible. Couple that with the brilliant work Tomasi is doing on GLC and its win win.

I'd also like to say how much the Rayner Vs Jordan debate made me laugh earlier in this thread.

[sabongero]

I just wanted to ask, does anyone know, which part of Abin Sur's story/origin was retconned by Geoff Johns ? Was Abin's friendship with Sinestro part of the history so far in the DCU, or was that a current retcon during the current Geoff Johns era ?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I just wanted to ask, does anyone know, which part of Abin Sur's story/origin was retconned by Geoff Johns ? Was Abin's friendship with Sinestro part of the history so far in the DCU, or was that a current retcon during the current Geoff Johns era ?

When Sinestro was created in the early 1960s, the only things revealed about his past was that he'd set himself up as dictator of Korugar and was banished to the Anti-Matter Universe of Qward for killing a Korugarian who disagreed with him. Nothing about training Hal or being friends with Abin Sur was even brought up. Hal's first encounter with Sinestro was as a full-on mustache-twirling villain.

Similarly, Abin Sur's death was initially due to flying through a yellow radiation belt near Earth and crash-landing his spaceship. Later on, Alan Moore established why Abin was even flying a spaceship when he introduced the Empire of Tears on Ysmault, including the Five Inversions--which Geoff Johns is currently exploring in the new comics.

When Hal's origin was revised for the first time in 1989 during the Emerald Dawn minis, Abin Sur's death was now the result of being killed by the yellow alien monster Legion and Sinestro was brought in as Hal's second trainer following his ring-slinging boot camp with Kilowog. However, Sinestro was already a villain by that time, Hal just didn't fully realise how big a baddie he was until he visited Korugar and learned Sinestro had set himself up as dictator.

This third revision of Hal's origin is expanding things further by establishing that not only was Sinestro friends with Abin Sur, who was now killed by Atrocitous of the Five Inversions, but also establishing a bond of friendship with Hal himself. For my money, this is the most interesting version thus far.

Presumably, the upcomming GL movie will explore this area even more as Sinestro is planned to appear in the first movie, but not as a badguy so that they can establish his relationship with Hal before going all Darth Vader with him in the sequel. Let's hope the first movie doesn't tank or else we won't get to see it.

[Aubergine~!]

In a perfect world, Johns would write the Flash & GL books for decades.

He's made the Rogues one of the most compelling groups in comics, and has put out what was probably one of the best storylines in recent years in the Sinestro Corps War.

His work on Superman looks interesting, but damn if I don't think he belongs on the GL & Flash books.

[sabongero]

Anyone here still reading Green Lantern lately ? How's it been ?

[Tabernac]

Anyone here still reading Green Lantern lately ? How's it been ?

Epic is really all I can say, every issue is getting us closer and closer to Blackest Night, though some questions are answered it feels like we gain two more at the end, Blackest Night is either going to rock everyone ones sock or rock everyones socks but the people that don't like GL for some stupid reason. I have switched people to DC from Marvel these books are so good.

[Elitehaxxor]

GL along with GLC are both really entertaining right now. I recommend both, they go well together.

[Karl O'Neill]

Anyone here still reading Green Lantern lately ? How's it been ?

It's bloody awesome, This is the best thing since star wars. Better than star wars.

I would like to see some spaceships in Green lantern, but because they all have power-rings, Spaceships would be redundent.

[Gef]

I have to agree - Green Lantern is the best DC storyline at the moment (Green Lantern and Green Lantern Corps).

In preparation for The Blackest Night, I've re-read all Green Lantern books from Rebirth onwards. Honestly, forgetting that this is "just" a comic, Green Lantern is some of the best science fiction I have ever read. It's epic inter-galactic space opera of the highest quality. It reads brilliantly, it looks beautiful, but more importantly - and this is increasing rare in comics these days - it is damned EXCITING.

When you read superhero stuff, you are supposed to get a thrill down your spine when cool stuff happens. A lot of the time I'm finding myself shrugging and going "meh" with other titles, but when the Green Lanterns fly into battle I'm just in pieces with excitement.

And the great thing is that there is no let-up in the quality. Other DC titles go through peaks and troughs (and I read nearly all of them), but Green Lantern is just supremely kick-ass awesome.

REALLY, really good.

[yoda510]

how about good Job? I wouldn't say great but it good with some great issues.

[guyjo]

I cannot wait for Blackest Night, and the issues along the way are a blast. Love discovering the different colored Lanterns, what an incredible addition to the Green Lantern mythos.