Batman runs the MGS gauntlet

[HectorP]

Rules: ten minutes of rest between fights. Bloodlust on, PIS, CIS off. Fight is in the arena. Batman has to face the following in order:

1) Fortune.

2) The Pain.

3) Vulcan Raven.

4) Psycho Mantis.

5) Volgin.

6) Vamp.

7) Solidus Snake.

8) Null.

9) Gene, who has been given the Bats' history and has a speech ready that would make Alexander Luthor envious.

How does he do?

[The Zapper]

In the arena you know Batman loses. Feel better now?

[master of read]

i'm just glad you didnt include the boss in this. then it would be too much of a curbstomp.

[HectorP]

i'm just glad you didnt include the boss in this. then it would be too much of a curbstomp.

The Boss is a kitten compared to Gene. And do you think The Boss could beat Batman? She's the better HTH fighter in the whole series, but that and the Patriot gun are the only things she has compared to Batman, who has the fighting skill, the Kevlar suit and the gadgets. A physical confrontation between the two would look good, but Batman would instill the same response from Volgin as The Boss did, from what I know of him.

As for the arena difference, well, I just wanted to use the standard rules since I seem to be the only one who thinks they apply to the other thread. The only fight I can see changing radically because of the setting is the Vulcan Raven one, and maybe the Psycho Mantis one.

[HectorP]

In the arena you know Batman loses. Feel better now?

At the very least, he should be able to take out Fortune, you should know that. But if you think I'm only spiting Batman, please don't post. I have no idea of all the gadgets he carries, for starters.

Now that I think of it, was her EM shield ever vulnerable to chaff grenades not in her immediate vicinity?

[Heltyr]

In all honesty, most of the MGS enemies here don't have a good long range attack and don't wear gasmasks. Batman carries around plenty of sleeping gases and other gases which he typically uses to bail himself out of these situations. Even still, I think the majority of the time he gets to Vamp.

Fortune: 1 good EMP gernade deals with her shield and weapon (starting off away from each other pays off, Batman's gernade will actually work). Her weapon charges slowly and the projectile itself is somewhat slow, despite its WTF power. She doesn't have much going for her after that.

The Pain: Bees? BEES? Even the bullet bees probably aren't going to get past armour that almost covers the entire body that can withstand sniper fire. Batman also has plenty of explosives to deal with the bee shield he might up. Batman takes this one easy.

Vulcan Raven: As someone said in another thread, Vulcan Raven is a slow Tuesday in Gotham City. Bullet proof armour + sleeping gas (+a 100 miles/h batarang to start off the fight to distract Raven long enough) for the win. But since Raven actually has a gun and the fight begins at range, this doesn't go as easy as it sounds but its not like Batman's never dealt with a machine gun user before. He could also use a smoke gernade at the beginning to help hide himself from what'll be a giant rain of bullets.

Psycho Mantis: First real fight. Batman has psychic resistances (I've posted feats in another thread), but still might get tossed around by psychic powers. Pyscho-M has problems avoiding attacks when he can't read the other's mind. Batman probably takes this but is significantly worse for the wear. Most importantly, Pyscho Mantis wears a gas mask meaning Batman can't just gas-hax for the win as he can with almost everyone else. I imagine Batman will try to sleeping darts or try to damage the mask instead.

Volgin: Recently when Batman was electrocuted by the Joker it was revealed the batsuit is extensively electrically insulated. That nullifies Volgin's main attack. The armour resists the other bullet attack (although where he'll get the bullets I don't know, Batman won't shoot him). Volgin was strong, but he wasn't fast by any means and also didn't wear a gas-mask.

Vamp: By this point, Batman is starting to get pretty tired and is starting to run low on supplies. He's also up against Vamp of all people. The guy literally doesn't die. If Batman has sleeping gases left, he'd better hope they'd have effect on Vamp considering the guy hasn't been shown as anything more than KO'd despite getting shot in the head. This match either ends with Vamp temporarily KO'd or a dead Batman.

Solidus: The wear is getting on and the supplies are low. Solidus doesn't wear a mask that I'm aware of (please correct me if I'm wrong). If Batman were resupplied between matches this might not be impossible, but given Solidus' suit, its speed, etc this is really tough.

Null is basically Cyborg Ninja but when he was human, but still a sword-ser. I only include this for the sake he gets this far. Batman is probably way too tired to do anything here, but if he has any gases left (tear gas, nerve gas, etc), it'd be wise since Null only wears a cloth around his face to my knowledge.

Gene. I am completely unaware of this guy.


EDIT: I just realized I failed to consider other resistances these guys might have to gases aside from simple masks. I also tended to write in a Batman + Gas = FTW formula. If there are problems in the execution of this, please let me know so we can more accurately describe the probable outcomes.

[HectorP]

The Pain: Bees? BEES? Even the bullet bees probably aren't going to get past armour that almost covers the entire body that can withstand sniper fire. Batman also has plenty of explosives to deal with the bee shield he might up. Batman takes this one easy.

While I think a massive attack of bees might get to the unprotected part of his mask, I agree that this shouldn't pose that much of problem. Does Bats have something to take care of the vermin quickly? Otherwise taking the Pain out should make the swarm to leave the arena.


Vulcan Raven: As someone said in another thread, Vulcan Raven is a slow Tuesday in Gotham City. Bullet proof armour + sleeping gas (+a 100 miles/h batarang to start off the fight to distract Raven long enough) for the win. But since Raven actually has a gun and the fight begins at range, this doesn't go as easy as it sounds but its not like Batman's never dealt with a machine gun user before. He could also use a smoke gernade at the beginning to help hide himself from what'll be a giant rain of bullets.


I tend to think of Raven's weapon as the high-end of bullets in the series, considering it's supposed to be on an aircraft, not wielded. I'm reminded of the helicopter chase scene in 28 Weeks Later, with the gunfire blowing chunks out of the pavement. But Bats should never ever go about trying to soak that many bullets, high-caliber or not, so I agree with you. Plus there's the paralysis trick he did to Snake, but I'm leaving that out right now because it seems iffy, somehow.


Volgin: Recently when Batman was electrocuted by the Joker it was revealed the batsuit is extensively electrically insulated. That nullifies Volgin's main attack. The armour resists the other bullet attack (although where he'll get the bullets I don't know, Batman won't shoot him). Volgin was strong, but he wasn't fast by any means and also didn't wear a gas-mask.

Just wanted to say Volgin carries bullets with him. He's pretty tough, comparable to Liquid in endurance, but no proof that he can shrug off gas.


Solidus: The wear is getting on and the supplies are low. Solidus doesn't wear a mask that I'm aware of (please correct me if I'm wrong). If Batman were resupplied between matches this might not be impossible, but given Solidus' suit, its speed, etc this is really tough.

He has a retractable mouthpiece that seemed to serve no special purpose that I could see, other than to convey "bring it on".


Null is basically Cyborg Ninja but when he was human, but still a sword-ser. I only include this for the sake he gets this far. Batman is probably way too tired to do anything here, but if he has any gases left (tear gas, nerve gas, etc), it'd be wise since Null only wears a cloth around his face to my knowledge.

See below for a little more on Null.


Gene. I am completely unaware of this guy.

Here's what I posted on the other thread about Gene:


Portable Ops is a pretty good game, otherwise here's what he can do if you don't mind some spoilers (somewhat massive in the second vid if you don't skip it after the death):

How he deals with a bullet-timer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2_VuMJ0i_U)

How he deals with a telekinetic-mindreader. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD9jfEE7MDo)

How he deals with heavy machinegun fire, at 00:40. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgR77tc-bK8)

For reference, here's how the aforementioned bullet-timer performs. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvgq5t5gP1w&mode=related&search=)

What his Voice can do. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6edFhkBDks)

That last vid is disjointed and has an incomplete speech, but it's the best I could find, sorry. Point is, those soldiers shot each other because of the effect the speech had on them.



EDIT: I just realized I failed to consider other resistances these guys might have to gases aside from simple masks. I also tended to write in a Batman + Gas = FTW formula. If there are problems in the execution of this, please let me know so we can more accurately describe the probable outcomes.

I can't think of any right now, since I don't remember all of the gameplay combat tricks they all pulled off, and you are more knowledgeable on Batman than I am. I'll see if anything comes up later. :)

[Green Goblin]

What games are NUll and Gene from I haven't heard of those character in a metal gear soild series yet

[Miburohunter929]

What games are NUll and Gene from I haven't heard of those character in a metal gear soild series yet

They are from the pretty recent (I think) PSP, metal gear game.

I think it was called stealth ops, or something.

I'm tired, so I'm drawing a blank on the name.

Anyways, Big Boss is the star of the show, not Solid Snake.

[HectorP]

Just some random points:

-The Pain also carries a tommy gun and grenades. He prances about a lot, though.

-Volgin's charge is ten million volts. Could this be a problem for Bats? I never really tried throwing gas grenades at him (or any boss I can remember, for that matter, save The Pain for obvious reasons). BTW, what was the idea behind his shield only protecting the front of his body? I mean, I think you couldn't grapple with him if he was charged, but shooting his back was okay.

-Vamp can bodyread to the extent just casual looking at Raiden or a soldier (even while spinning like a top) lets him avoid all the bullets. He was agile and fast enough to jump behind Raiden while he was still looking upwards.

-Null carries, besides that sword/machete, an automatic pistol, which he uses when you fight him. His reaction every time I threw something at him was getting out of the way.

-Gene is the most speedblitz-able character in the whole series, both in cutscenes and gameplay, even compared with Fox (all incarnations) and Vamp. I couldn't even get him with explosives because even if he steps on a Claymore and it blows up in his face, he still dodges the explosion. He obviously needs to read Identity Crisis (lol timetravel). He dodges your gunfire even when throwing a speech, leaving afterimages and throwing knives at the same time.

-Is Bats able to activate devices without reaching for the belt? I think I remember him doing so, but I don't know if that was the animated version or what. This would help him a lot, especially against the faster characters.

[Heltyr]

Its hard to say how much The Pain would actually prance around in an arena fight unless he's actually functionally retarded, so that's not a problem.

I did neglect his gernades and his gun though. The gun changes things a bit, the gernades don't. Batman has too many feats where he picks Gernades off with Batarangs (he'd have to use specialty explosive or electrified batarangs to get past the bees), his own explosives (this will work against the bee cloud), or simply throws them back if any time at all is left on the fuse (probably not an issue here unless The Pain is functionally retarded). If the pain starts off competantly and opens fire with the tommy gun, this battle will basically be Vulcan Raven Lite. I neglected that Batman carries a good supply of flashbangs. Opening up with one of these (maybe with a smoke gernade too) is the easiest way. If he starts off with slower moving bees, it doesn't play out so good.

Volgin's charge could be a problem if it discharges it all at once, but might not necessarily help in this fight. If you're familar with circuits or electricity, voltage is sort of like the total energy available. If we pretend Volgin is a gun that shoots electricity, than his ammo clip is the charge stored in his body. Volgin could shoot 10 blasts of a million volts or one blast of 10 million volts, for example.

Batman's biggest feat was taking a shock well into the hundred thousands volts (which caused him a lot of pain but no other physiological affects). If Batman were to take a full 10 million volt hit (assuming Volgin is capable of an all-out blast and not just the little discharges he normally does), Batman would probably survive but he'd be suffering from heart and respiratory problems (Not life threatening I think, but it'd make his other fights less fun). If Volgin tried to use this all or none-attack, but missed, he's basically lost. And yes, in terms of the gameplay mechanics, Volgin was vunerable to hits on his back, but also hits from in front... but only near the time of his attacks (seems like he has to concentrate to keep his shield up, whenever he physically attacked he lost this concentration). He was also weak to claymore mines, stun gernades (although he'd respond by charging you), Incendary and normal gernades (work fine but Volgin is smart enough to try and dodge them). Volgin was also briefly almost entirely invincible after he "super-charges" himself on the circuit breaker (this also replenishes his "ammo") whenever he runs low on energy. He has no circuit breaker in Arena though, so the length of time Volgin can fight with electricity is also cut down.

If Batman gets a run-down of Vamp's basic abilities as per usual rules, he should be able to mask his movements with smoke bombs, a flash bang or his own cape at the very least. What makes Vamp scary is not necessarily his apparent bullet timing but the fact that he can throw knives onto your shadow to stop you momentarily. Vamp's knives don't seem to be too special so Batman's armour should last a couple hits (but not forever of course), but, If I remember right, VAMP is a freak in H2H (like, in gameplay you cannot hit him as Raiden when he comes down). Batman's ONLY hope of winning at this point is a gas-win, but I don't think that's very likely. With most of the other villians Batman has hope using H2H but not so much with Vamp. If Batman were freash, given that Vamp uses no protection for his eyes and no gasmask, AND that Batman has dozens of ways to conceal his movements, Batman would probably take the majority. Not here, not while so worn down though.

Null's automatic pistol does change things quite a bit if he uses it. I don't like the condition of Batman's armour by this point, his ability to dodge (fatigue) or conceal himself with smoke. Batman's got mad endurance, having fought every single one of his rogues and all their henchmen almost exclusively in H2H combat over a period of several days of nearly non-stop action, but in the end even he was worn out. In the end Bane didn't break the Bat when he finally ambushed him, he already found Batman to be a broken man. Again if Batman were freash and had supplies he'd probably go with the flashbang then gas approach.

BTW, I'm pretty sure Batman has ways to activate some of his most common weapons, but I think his more exotic stuff needs to be taken out of his belt. I thought this was a non-factor though. Fighters usually get a grace period of about ~15 seconds (their platform raises to the ARENA) to get whatever tools they need if they carry it on them. If you check the rules, there's even a crack about Batman here. 15 seconds would not be enough time to make an anti-avengers ray it says (well, maybe Adam West Batman could...).


EDIT: If you are wondering how I was able to estimate the effect of the electric attacks, I used the chart on here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock. Since Batman was in pain, but no physiological effects were noted, I assumed the hundred thousand volts he took, were the equivalent of the 0.005 A range. When we multiply this by 100 (to go from a hundred thousand to 10 million), we fall into the range where the attack can be fatal to people with weak hearts. I don't think you want to argue that Batman has a weak heart though, considering some real life humans have taken lightning bolts (variable, from a million volts to a trillion) and survived.

[HectorP]

Didn't Volgin wise up in the second half of the boss fight? By that point, even when in a fighting stance to punch you, he was charged up and if you shot him his shield would protect him, disrupting his own attack attempts. I think of the Shagohod replenishment as Volgin going all out. In fighting terms, assuming he can unleash all of his charge into Batman, the
best way to not miss (without area attacks, but those are unreluable) would be to bear hug him and charge up. But I don't think Batman would let him get that close.

If you don't mind Heltyr, since Batman seems able to consistently clear half of the list until Vamp, how do you think Batman would do if he faced the characters on the list individually, with fresh supplies and without exertion?

[Heltyr]

I think you're right, Volgin does wise up near the end of the fight up to the point that you either have to CqC toss him (Judo, eh?) or punch him only immediately after one of his attacks. Provided he isn't super charged so he's completely invincible.

I already mentioned that with a full armor, flashbangs, smoke bombs, tear gas bombs and sleeping bombs Batman has a good chance against Vamp. Vamp only really comes in with his own abilities and a bunch of knives. Batman comes in as a peak human with a variety of gernades, bullet proof armour that can resist sniper fire, a suit that can deliver a 200,000 volt shock (last ditch), batarangs of every flavour, wires, grapnails, shock resistance, flame resistance, a cape that doubles as a flak jacket and can block EMPs, sleeping darts, EMPs, sonic weapons, nose filters, explosives of amazing power, etc. I'm not even scratching the surface on his standard suit (he's also got a belt/suit for when he hangs with the JLA, as well as a sci-fi closest that contains things like Boom Tubes, his own personal nuke and other absurd things). Vamp has nothing to protect his eyes, his lungs, his ears. He pretty much only wears clothes for the sake of not being naked. As long as Batman doesn't engage Vamp for any prolonged fist fights (which plays into Vamp's greater base stats advantage), his gases ought to do work for him. Batman may not bullet-time but he can definitely react to thrown knives.

Solidus Snake becomes a bit more of pushover because Batman's EMP, which hasn't been previously used on Fortune, takes care of his suit right off the bat unless of course his suit is specifically resistant to that type of thing.

Gene sounds like enough of a problem that Batman can't do much to him even with all his tools. Gene probably wins majority, like 8-9/10.... I think anyway. I'm still too unfamilar to really say.

Null seems pretty rough. A gun and sword? Also a possible bullet timer? Batman has the tools (flashbangs, smoke bombs and sleeping gases) to potentially deal with him but given that Null has been shown to be generally competant the actual execution of everything will be hard. I estimate maybe a 5/10 give or take 1 unless anybody has anything to add.

[HectorP]

Regarding Batman vs. the Frightful Four (:p):

Vamp. I think Vamp would win more often than not over Batman because in the arena Vamp would use his speed and agility to force a close quarters fight. When the fight starts, Batman's strategy would be to keep him at distance, but given how far and quick Vamp leaps (he runs on water and up walls, after all), taking off the instant he touches the ground, Batman's best hope would be to try to enclose him in gas and hope they effect him right away without him bursting through, in which case he would keep it up. But I can easily imagine Vamp already in the air over the thrown gas grenades. At close quarters, Batman wouldn't be able to effectively mask his movements and attack/defend against Vamp at the same time, since in the MGS4 trailer, he's shown wrestling with Raiden, having been impaled on the latter's sword. So I'm going with a conservative 6-7/10 for Vamp.

Solidus. The EMP would be Bats' trump card against Solidus, unless Solidus sped at Bats from the very start, shooting away at him with his submachinegun with one hand and wielding a sword in the other in order to not give him a chance to use it or try to kill him in case Bats is already reaching into his belt, keeping close to him without giving him a chance to get away (is the EMP a grenade device?). If the EMP were not an issue, Solidus would give Bats a major workout in a game of attrition, speeding away every time Bats threw him something, shooting at him with his submachinegun and his tentacle missiles, forcing him to be always on the move and speeding away if he started to get close or in throwing-range. As it stands, I say 5/5, depending on the initial distance, the suit's speed and how Batman can cope with having Solidus shooting at him at close range while wielding a sword at bullet-time speeds.

Null. Null is able to mow down several soldiers, all shooting at him with assault rifles, without being hit once while moving and cutting at them, otherwise he deflects multiple bullets with ease. A bunch of soldiers who charged him to restrain him from all angles got killed instantly in just one move by him. Add to this that he wields the pistol in one hand and the sword in the other. This is the range of speed and skill where I can't see Batman scoring more than 2 out of ten and that's if he's lucky and can somehow damage him at the same instant he's being attacked by his sword. Even with Null not going full-bore at him from the start, closing the distance and nullifying the effect of thrown grenades, he's fast enough to get out of range of anything thrown at him, and when he's at a distance, he opens fire.

Gene. Considering he dodges Gatling machinegun fire without appearing to be moving at all, that he speedblitzed Null to the ground (leaving him with knives lodged in his hands and knees before knocking him out), and to top this he's stated to be the equal of The Boss in CQC plus his Voice has a stacking manipulative effect and can raise mental defenses as a bonus, this is the fight I can clearly say Batman has no hope of winning. Batgirl would have a better chance. As soon as the fight started, Gene would vanish from Bruce's sight, appear in front of him, knock him to the ground, stomp on his neck and throw 20-plus knives to his face in a matter of seconds, all the while stating how futile and misguided his war on crime is in a reverberating sound effect.

Well, this is how I view these fights, the hardest fought, definitely.

[nervmeister]

Big Boss beating Gene must've took a serious amount of PIS. (haven't played the game BTW)

[HectorP]

Big Boss beating Gene must've took a serious amount of PIS. (haven't played the game BTW)

You should, if you are a fan of the series IMHO. Big Boss encounters him, you, the player, beat him, and that's it, gameplay PIS. No wonder Big Boss was called the greatest soldier of the 20th century, though. I can imagine back in the day people in the mercenary/military business hearing of Big Boss beating Gene (after already killing the Cobra unit and The Boss, plus Thunderbolt Volgin) and being afraid/respectful of him.

[nervmeister]

You should, if you are a fan of the series IMHO. Big Boss encounters him, you, the player, beat him, and that's it, gameplay PIS. No wonder Big Boss was called the greatest soldier of the 20th century, though. I can imagine back in the day people in the mercenary/military business hearing of Big Boss beating Gene (after already killing the Cobra unit and The Boss, plus Thunderbolt Volgin) and being afraid/respectful of him.Maybe Gene suffered wicked diarrhea at the moment the battle began, allowing Snake the opportunity to defeat him. There. I filled in the gaping hole this story left in my brain.

[HectorP]

Maybe Gene suffered wicked diarrhea at the moment the battle began, allowing Snake the opportunity to defeat him. There. I filled in the gaping hole this story left in my brain.

That's as good an explanation as any, really. When not even a bullet-timing ninja, a rogue Metal Gear or a powerful (as in, Psycho Mantis+ powerful) psychokinetic/mindreader/precog user could kill him, the tropical weather and the lousy cooking conditions were his downfall.

[nervmeister]

That's as good an explanation as any, really. When not even a bullet-timing ninja, a Metal Gear or a powerful (as in, Psycho Mantis+ powerful) psychokinetic/mindreader/precog user could kill him, the tropical weather and the lousy cooking conditions were his downfall.LOL. Mystery solved.

[Heltyr]

Keep in mind that Batman has some extremely ridiculous base stats.

Some strength feats
1. Breaking a large tree trunk with a single kick.
2. Kicking down a steel door
3. Punching a man through a brick wall
4. Throwing a man through a steel barrier designed to withstand missiles.
5. Swinging around a 600lbs Man-Bat with a rope so casually, he's letting his mind wander to back when he was younger and having Thanksgiving.

Speed feats (I posted ALOT of these in the other Batman/MGS thread)
1. Disarming 5 people (taking their guns out of their hands), almost simultaneously before they could even react (Average Human reaction speed is 0.15 seconds).
2. Being completely surrounded by enemies with guns and literally obliterating everyone without taking a single hit, he even remarks that "it isn't even fun anymore". If didn't you look at this stuff (I posted it in the other thread) basically picture the Cyborg Ninja kills everyone scene in MGS1:TTS except with more people, no invisibility cloak for Batman, Batman dropping between 3-5 crooks per hit and the whole scene lasting 6 minutes (there is actually a clock at the bottom of each frame), Batman unleashed A LOT of hurt here..
3. Dodges a point blank shot fired by Deadshot. Deadshot, by the way, is a comicbook mercenary with comic-book level accuracy and speed.
4. Charges a machine-gun user, weaves in between bullets to finally deliver a kick to the machine gun-user's face.
5. Dodges a sniper's bullet. Batman had his back-turned, was not originally aware of the sniper and then supposedly did not react until as the bullet was fired. Apparentely he detected a slight air pressure difference just as the gunpowder ignited (Bad science I know, but it was also used by WW against Superman using super speed against her).

6. I only vaguely remember this feat so I will set it aside since I don't have the scan. He intercepts a bullet with a batarang.

Despite the fact that Batman does not bullet-time he is absurdly skilled enough that he doesn't have to bullet-time. In all the years Batman has fought hoards of gun-users, he has only been hit a select few times. He was hit three times in the chest because he had to protect someone who was behind him (basically, if he dodged, the man behind him is dead). He was hit by a sniper bullet dead on, because he wanted to perpetuate the myth that he was invincible. (AKA, the sniper gets a clean hit, which doesn't even slow Batman. The sniper escapes and tells all his buddies that a living breathing demon is loose on the streets of gotham because he's scared shitless).

In the same vein, Batman has fought dozens of metas with enhanced speed. His absurd level of skill allows him to know how the metas are attacking even before they know it themselves. This allows Batman to actually defeat individuals who's base stats are much higher than his (to a point). He's stalemated KarateKid (who actually comments that he could learn alot from Batman, in the middle of their fight). If you aren't aware, Batman is supposedly a master of 127 forms of martial arts and knows several secret moves (leopard strike, plunging axe (spl?)) that are lethal in a single clean strike and only known to less than dozen people in the world.

Given these stats and his extra abilities given to him by his gadgets and suit, I don't think he's as lost against these MGS mutant-soldiers as you might think.

[HectorP]

I think it's a testament to Batman's skill and efficient gadgetry that you have to go up the ladder of MGS enemies to keep him down. However, I mostly stand by my choices.

His strength, as you mentioned somewhere, seems to vary. The missile steel barrier, for example, seems too much for him IMO.

"The hand is faster than the eye". While I'm sure Batman can make quick body movements that would baffle a regular person, a bullet is still faster than this. All my arguments are based on Batman being skilled enough to dodge the aim of his shooters, but still no bullet-timing. That's how I've always seen him debated, the sniper-bullet example you mention makes me think he's not consistently shown as such. I've heard Karate Kid got jobbed to Batman even when shot full of tranqs. Batman seems to replicate Null's feat, but the method is different: Null is fast enough to weave between shooting soldiers in instants (you can check the Null vid I posted earlier) dishing out lethal force (he doesn't waste effort), AND react to the individual bullets, that's why he's faster than Batman.

Since his attacks aren't faster than bullets, he can be taken down in melee by Vamp and Solidus, too. Solidus has shown by walking in his own fire trails that his suit is durable, and he can speed all over the arena faster than Batman (similarly, Vamp is very agile).

And Gene, well, he's as above Null as Null is above normal soldiers. Batman could punch and kick at him all day and Gene would dodge it all while looking immobile. He seems to have more knives under that coat than Midnighter torture instruments and he shows he's a master using them (he's stated to be based on The Boss' CQC, after all). He curbstomped a bullet-timer, when all is said and done.

BTW, if you want to take a look at the new group of crazies Snake will be facing in the new game, the MGS4 thread in the Games forum has a new trailer. It's.... interesting. ;)

[Heltyr]

The amount of strength Batman uses, is roughly proportionate to the ability of his opponent to absorb punishment (to a point of course). If he can chop large trees with a single kick, just based on the strength used in this feat alone, he could shatter any Human's femur (much, much smaller than a tree trunk) or cave in any human's chest on striking power alone (forget nerve strikes or pressure points)... but Batman's completely nonlethal. In his first canon outing as Batman, due to inexperience, he kicked and punched people so hard that they required immediate medical attenton otherwise they'd die. This got him into quite a bit of trouble. Consequently, some of his best striking feats are against low-level metas.

I still haven't forgotten the entirely gadget driven solutions I posted earlier. What I'm just saying here Batman, at the very least, has the physical stats (if he had nothing but underwear on) to momentarily survive against most of these mutant-soldiers. Coupled with his armour, his lasting ability increases still more (whatever he can't dodge is taken by his armour). Coupled further with smoke bombs (which would not hinder his vision due to all of the googles built into his cowl), flashbangs, tear gas, etc his lasting power goes up further still. Couple this with the fact that he has tools that can KO (gases) or disable (EMPs) in a single well-executed use Batman has the ability to put anyone here down.

EDIT: I did not post the Sniper bullet feat to indicate that Batman bullet-times.

Since Batman had his back turned in the sniper feat and was also completely unaware of the sniper until the last second, there is no way to have dodged the shooters aim (in the traditional sense) because he could not see the shooter let alone had the idea that there even was a shooter. He still ended up dodging it at the last possible moment because all the non-visual aspects to a gun going going off alerted him, he rapidly deduced that there was a sniper and that he needed to dodge. At this point, he didn't necessarily dodge the shooter's aim as he dodged all of the engineering that goes off inside a gun when it goes off. For example, in the original Ocelot vs Snake Battle (I posted this in the other thread), just before the fight, Snake dodges a bullet fired by ocelot because he heard the hammer being pulled (because the weapon Ocelot uses is a single action colt). This feat shows how little information Batman needs to dodge someone's aim. I don't see how anyone from the MGS lineup could do any better than being behind Batman, Batman not knowing that they were behind him and then pulling the trigger (unless they used some kind of ultra gun that is completely silent and leaves no other traces that its being fired). Considering this and the fact that Batman wears armour strong enough to stop sniper bullets anyway.

[Xero Kaiser]

Rules: ten minutes of rest between fights. Bloodlust on, PIS, CIS off. Fight is in the arena. Batman has to face the following in order:

1) Fortune.

2) The Pain.

3) Vulcan Raven.

4) Psycho Mantis.

5) Volgin.

6) Vamp.

7) Solidus Snake.

8) Null.

9) Gene, who has been given the Bats' history and has a speech ready that would make Alexander Luthor envious.

How does he do?

Null, Vamp, Solidus and Gene all murder Batman. The other fights should be a little more even

[HectorP]

Null, Vamp, Solidus and Gene all murder Batman. The other fights should be a little more even

Pretty much. Heltyr, I think you are underestimating these characters going all out, in which case Batman's chances are slim. Vamp has enhanced speed already by running on water (there's a thread somewhere asking how fast you have to be in order to do that) and up walls. Add to this his enhanced perception in relation to Raiden (who was just starting to wonder where the heck the vampire went while Vamp was already going for his face behind him) his level of body-reading, and the fact that having a bullet lodged in his brain and a sword impaling him is but a flesh wound to him (I think he even pulls knives out of his body in the trailer) and the only chance Bats has is unleashing a flashbang that doesn't require setting off a thrown object and I don't think he's fast enough to do this before Vamp is already by him, body-reading his every intention. When the ring bells, Vamp would run up to Batman or jump by him, get him in a choke-hold and punch four knives into his face. Null, well, he doesn't need to body-read to deflect machinegun fire, so he has an even better standing than Vamp in speed alone.

Remember Solidus smacking machinegun fire off him? That's the speed at which his HF swords will be mince-meating Batman, emphasis on the head. Remember Soldius blazing all over the roof of Federal Hall? That's the speed he will be charging Bats in a trail of fire when the fight starts. If he EMP is as accesible as a pressed button in his belt, Bats has a chance. Otherwise, no.

And Gene, well, he's waiting for Batman to leave the arena voluntarily and for Iron Fist to step in, that would be a fight.

I think we are going in circles by now, so I pull out. It's been fun, but we can only agree to disagree.

[Xero Kaiser]

Pretty much. Heltyr, I think you are underestimating these characters going all out, in which case Batman's chances are slim. Vamp has enhanced speed already by running on water (there's a thread somewhere asking how fast you have to be in order to do that) and up walls. Add to this his enhanced perception in relation to Raiden (who was just starting to wonder where the heck the vampire went while Vamp was already going for his face behind him) his level of body-reading, and the fact that having a bullet lodged in his brain and a sword impaling him is but a flesh wound to him (I think he even pulls knives out of his body in the trailer) and the only chance Bats has is unleashing a flashbang that doesn't require setting off a thrown object and I don't think he's fast enough to do this before Vamp is already by him, body-reading his every intention. When the ring bells, Vamp would run up to Batman or jump by him, get him in a choke-hold and punch four knives into his face. Null, well, he doesn't need to body-read to deflect machinegun fire, so he has an even better standing than Vamp in speed alone.

Remember Solidus smacking machinegun fire off him? That's the speed at which his HF swords will be mince-meating Batman, emphasis on the head. Remember Soldius blazing all over the roof of Federal Hall? That's the speed he will be charging Bats in a trail of fire when the fight starts. If he EMP is as accesible as a pressed button in his belt, Bats has a chance. Otherwise, no.

And Gene, well, he's waiting for Batman to leave the arena voluntarily and for Iron Fist to step in, that would be a fight.


Yep

-Vamp is Batgirls' bodyreading, Spider-Man's agility and speed, and Wolverine's regen rolled into one person.

-Null and Gene (especially Gene) could have their blades rammed down Batman's throat before he blinks.

-Solidus is bullet-timing, armored, wielding two HF blades, a machinegun with armor-piercing rounds and missiles

It's just entirely too much to deal with in a straight up arena match. He'd be dead 5 times over before he reaches for any of his gadgets and his armor isn't stopping HF blades or missiles

[Heltyr]

I'll just close off then by posting some scans of Batman fighting some metas to give a final example of what he's capable of.


Grabs Impulse even though he's moving fast enough to create multiple images of himself, pretty impressivel skillz.
http://img121.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=77b_batimpulse.jpg


Steals a GL Ring, those guys are supposed to have autoshields
http://img18.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc69&image=ca4_batgl1.jpg
http://img17.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc113&image=572_batgl2.jpg


Catches an arrow that was fired behind his back by Green Arrow.
http://img121.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc273&image=929_batgarrow.jpg

Vs Cassie-Batgirl, a certified bullet timer who wants to fight badly (Body reader)

http://img20.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc69&image=812_batvsbgirl1.jpg
http://img45.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=355_batvsbgirl2.jpg
http://img17.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=978_batvsbgirl4.jpg
http://img109.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=4a2_batvsbgirl5.jpg
http://img102.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=f3f_batvsbgirl6.jpg
http://img44.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=df8_batvsbgirl7.jpg
http://img14.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=3be_batvsbgirl8.jpg
http://img22.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=f1f_batvsbgirl13.jpg
http://img109.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=f18_batvsbgirl12.jpg

Later describes it as therapy
http://img43.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=a61_batvsbgirl19.jpg


Vs Creeper, a meta with enhanced agility and Speed. Batman keeps up, and creeper comments on Batman's speed. They later beat up some lions just 'cuz.

From wikipedia:
He displays virtually superhuman agility and stamina, combined with strength. This enables him to perform amazing feats of acrobatics and leaping. At times this can be compared to another character, Spider-Man, whom Ditko helped Stan Lee to create... The Creeper also possesses a superhuman healing factor, which enables him to heal from virtually any wound. Indeed, gunshots and stab wounds have healed in a matter of minutes.


http://img17.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=055_batcreep1.jpg
http://img120.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=c75_batcreep2.jpg
http://img21.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=976_batcreep3.jpg
http://img42.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=9b5_batcreep4.jpg

Zeiss an enhanced body reader
A little background on him
http://img106.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc12&image=30e_zeiss2.jpg

Typical Meta, enhanced speed, reflexes and with peak human strength. He also basically has a sharingan, if you're familar with that. Prior to this fight, Zeiss extensively studied footage of Batman.
A little pre-fight
http://img105.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc43&image=485_batzeiss3_2.jpg

Still more
http://img45.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=54d_batzeiss1.jpg
http://img16.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=9c4_batzeiss2.jpg
http://img22.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=477_batzeiss3.jpg

Later, straight H2H
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=numriser00108dm.jpg
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=numriser00110ps.jpg
http://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=numriser00128un.jpg

Vs The human flee, Superspeed, Super Agility, Super Strength
http://img121.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc153&image=fd5_batflea6.jpg

Vs Ferak, a monster Poison has created, enhanced yadda yadda yadda
http://img42.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc24&image=0a6_batferak1a.jpg
http://img20.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=2ab_batferak1d.jpg

[Heltyr]

Yep

He'd be dead 5 times over before he reaches for any of his gadgets and his armor isn't stopping HF blades or missiles


READ THE FORUM RULES. Before the bell rings, each fighter is provided ~15 seconds to get whatever tools they need if they carry it on them. This give him ample time to reach into his belt, pull it whatever he wants and rest his finger on the button to wait for the bell to go off.

EDIT: After having read the revised rules myself, there they no longer describe the stage as being raised up nor do they explicitly say how long people are allowed to plan or take defensive action anymore.

[superbatman86]

Fortune stops him.All of his gadegts would become duds and all his attacks would miss.