Starlins killing of the new gods

[Dr.J.]

Man, I used to be a HUGE fan of Starlin.While his art still holds up,The past few years,I've been VERY dissapointed with his writing.His infinity abyas or whatever was terrible.I notice that his tales,seem to focus on madness,entire planets getting wasted, and heroes getting polished off.Artisticly,hes qualified to do,a new series of kirbys new gods.From what I've read of his interview,he has little respect for kirbys characters.I will read this series,but only on the stand. I won't pay for it.It seems of late,that dc is going out of their way,to flush their universe of what both Kirby and Ditko created.Would that they just sold them to marvel instead.I'm pretty much done with both dc and Starlin.

[Question_Authority]

Its Dan Didiots fault. He must be secretly working for Marvel to kill off DC history and characters bit by bit. Then again Marvel doesn't really need the help, its just Didiot's craptastic idea that death=sales. So short sighted. I sincerly hope Didio's bosses see how bad he's messing up DCU. Since they look at the bottom line which is getting lower ever since the one year later fiasco, Didiot should get the axe in the next couple of years. Of course, by then DCU won't be much more then a tattered shadow of its former rich past.:evilangry :mad:

[Samurai]

IMO, the new gods are silly. They look goofy, and the whole storyline is full of ridiculous characters. Even Darkseid is a pretty lame villain most of the time... he has only truly been used to his full potential once, and that was the Great Darkness Saga. Everything before and since has fallen waaaay short of that.

Kirby's best work was at Marvel, and it seemed to me like his DC and independent work (Like Captain Victory) is a very poor shadow of him at his best.

[Ryan Day]

IMO, the new gods are silly. They look goofy, and the whole storyline is full of ridiculous characters.

You've just described about 99% of all superhero comics.

[Buried Alien]

Its Dan Didiots fault. He must be secretly working for Marvel to kill off DC history and characters bit by bit. Then again Marvel doesn't really need the help, its just Didiot's craptastic idea that death=sales. So short sighted. I sincerly hope Didio's bosses see how bad he's messing up DCU. Since they look at the bottom line which is getting lower ever since the one year later fiasco, Didiot should get the axe in the next couple of years. Of course, by then DCU won't be much more then a tattered shadow of its former rich past.:evilangry :mad:

There are legitimate things that Dan Didio can be criticized for, but "killing off DC history" isn't one of them. If anything, Didio's tenure has seen the revival of much DC history that his predecessors had buried after CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. Until 2005, it seemed that DC was in deep denial about its Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age heritage. In the past two years, we've seen much of that return (i.e. the Multiverse and all it entails). In fact, you'd have a better case against Didio if you accused him of dredging up the past rather than "killing" it.

As for Starlin, he seems to be the "go to guy" when it comes to killing off characters, doesn't he? He killed off Captain Mar-vell and Jason Todd in the 1980s, and it looks like he's being brought in to knock off the New Gods now.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[BoosterBronze]

As for Starlin, he seems to be the "go to guy" when it comes to killing off characters, doesn't he? He killed off Captain Mar-vell and Jason Todd in the 1980s, and it looks like he's being brought in to knock off the New Gods now.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I say "No loss." Kill all the New Gods. They never really fit in DCU anyways, becuase in a world with The Quintessencse, and Superman, and stuff, they are a whole lot less Godlike.

Kill them off in DCU, and if a writer really thinks of something cool to do with them, make a non-continuity book for them, which is how they began anyways IIRC.

[Buried Alien]

I say "No loss." Kill all the New Gods. They never really fit in DCU anyways, becuase in a world with The Quintessencse, and Superman, and stuff, they are a whole lot less Godlike.

Yeah, with all due respect to Jack Kirby, the New Gods never really caught on with me either. The only thing from the whole New Gods mythos that has ever mattered to me was the introduction of Darkseid, who became the first great cosmic villain in the DCU, but that isn't dependent on his New Gods roots.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kevinroc]

As for Starlin, he seems to be the "go to guy" when it comes to killing off characters, doesn't he? He killed off Captain Mar-vell and Jason Todd in the 1980s, and it looks like he's being brought in to knock off the New Gods now.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I'll point out the irony that Captain Mar-Vell and Jason Todd are among the living right now (though Mar-Vell is due to time traveling).

[Captain Jim]

It's silly to get on Starlin's case about this, as he was simply hired to do the job.

Personally, I read all that Kirby stuff when it first came out at DC in the early '70's and liked it at the time. But I really don't think anyone since Kirby has done it justice (I'm sure there will be those who take exception to this, but that's my call). And it has never, ever sold well. You can also make a case that it appears pretty dated nowadays.

I don't have any problem clearing the slate, personally. It's not like they can't bring them back later, if someone comes up with a great idea on how to use them. But please, let's not have another Freedom Fighters number where we kill them all off, only to immediately bring back identical versions of the same characters.

[jadrax]

I'm pretty sure they will be back in Final Crisis tbh.

(That's speculation, not some deep insight)

[CBikle]

I say "No loss." Kill all the New Gods. They never really fit in DCU anyways, becuase in a world with The Quintessencse, and Superman, and stuff, they are a whole lot less Godlike.

Kill them off in DCU, and if a writer really thinks of something cool to do with them, make a non-continuity book for them, which is how they began anyways IIRC.

I think there's a middle ground between over-using the New God's and killing them off entirely and I disagree about them not fitting in the DCU, they were introduced in Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen, the most "DCU-esque" book there ever was.

[CBikle]

It's silly to get on Starlin's case about this, as he was simply hired to do the job.

Starlin really hasn't helped his own case. In that Newsarama interview, he came off as callous, jade and mercenary; basically dismantling the greatest work of someone who is considered a comics legend and treating the whole thing as "just a job".

Personally, I read all that Kirby stuff when it first came out at DC in the early '70's and liked it at the time. But I really don't think anyone since Kirby has done it justice (I'm sure there will be those who take exception to this, but that's my call). And it has never, ever sold well. You can also make a case that it appears pretty dated nowadays.

It's definitely of it's time, but I think the "space hippies" feel of New Gods gives it it's own distinctive feel.

I don't have any problem clearing the slate, personally. It's not like they can't bring them back later, if someone comes up with a great idea on how to use them. But please, let's not have another Freedom Fighters number where we kill them all off, only to immediately bring back identical versions of the same characters.

I think that's exactly what the plan is.

[BoosterBronze]

I think there's a middle ground between over-using the New God's and killing them off entirely and I disagree about them not fitting in the DCU, they were introduced in Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen, the most "DCU-esque" book there ever was.

My mistake. I was thinking "Eternals" which was originally outiside of Marvel continuity.

[adam_warlock_2099]

It's silly to get on Starlin's case about this, as he was simply hired to do the job.

Personally, I read all that Kirby stuff when it first came out at DC in the early '70's and liked it at the time. But I really don't think anyone since Kirby has done it justice (I'm sure there will be those who take exception to this, but that's my call). And it has never, ever sold well. You can also make a case that it appears pretty dated nowadays.

I don't have any problem clearing the slate, personally. It's not like they can't bring them back later, if someone comes up with a great idea on how to use them. But please, let's not have another Freedom Fighters number where we kill them all off, only to immediately bring back identical versions of the same characters.

Starlin really hasn't helped his own case. In that Newsarama interview, he came off as callous, jade and mercenary; basically dismantling the greatest work of someone who is considered a comics legend and treating the whole thing as "just a job".

It's definitely of it's time, but I think the "space hippies" feel of New Gods gives it it's own distinctive feel.

I think that's exactly what the plan is.

I'll be the first one (and it won't be the last) to say that I am biased when it comes to Starlin.

That being said . . . he is a "assassin" writer so to speak. He is good at what he does. When the slate needs to be cleaned, publishers turn to Starlin. Whether it be is own creation Thanos, or Infinity Gauntlet, A Death in the Family, The End: Marvel Universe, he does it and he does it well.

If anyone has read anything of his own creation outside of DC & Marvel, then his writings with these publishers wouldn't come as any big surprise. Read something like Dreadstar, Gilgamesh II, Cosmic Guard, Wyrd: The Reluctant Warrior, or Breed, it is a going trait in his writings. They are cosmic and depressingly bleak. The hero may conqueor in the end, but always with a price. It is his style of writing, the way that Wieringo was the exact opposite in his writings.

And if it is just a job to him, why should he be looked down for that. You know, it is just a job. Just because it encompasses something that we all like for entertainment, doesn't mean that it doesn't pay his bills. (Although if it is just a job to him, then he, in my opinion, is doing a damn fantastic job for someone that is just doing it for a paycheck.)

Like I said, I am biased to Starlin's writings, and this thread is what I have been looking for . . . something else to read written by Jim Starlin.

[titanfan]

Several of the New Gods characters have died and come back so many times that killing them off doesn't mean anything anymore anyway.

[Cayman]

It's silly to get on Starlin's case about this, as he was simply hired to do the job.



He could've said 'no'.

[J'onn J'onzz]

He could've said 'no'.

Then they would've just gotten an inferior writer to do it.

Honestly, it doesn't matter. I mean, it's not like very many people other than Kirby have properly used the characters, and Kirby's dead.

[agrich]

I didn't read the Newsarama interview, but there's another one with him over at WestfieldComics.com. It's a framed site and I couldn't link to the page, but it's not hard to find. Anyway, here's what he had to say about Kirby and the New Gods. Doesn't sound like he was anti- the New Gods or anything.

I dunno, maybe he said "yes" because DC had made the decision to kill them off and it was going to happen anyway, and he felt he could do it better than somebody else could have. As I recall that was why he took the Death of Captain Marvel assignment, too. Marvel told him they were going to kill him off, and Starlin felt he could do a better job of it than anyone else. And he could, and did.




Westfield: What interested you about this project?

Jim Starlin: I've always been a big fan of Jack Kirby's New Gods. Just before I got into this business, Jack went over to DC and was doing them. I followed those stories, salivating every time a new one came out. [laughs] My favorite of course, was the New Gods. Probably my least favorite was Mister Miracle. I don't know why. It just never appealed to me as much. So it's interesting that he's the main character, more or less, in this series. It was Jack at his best. Kirby didn't have Stan to polish up the writing, it was just pouring out ideas faster than he could actually put them down so they'd made sense. There are things in that series that are just so terrific, like Orion. On the other end, you've got the Black Racer, who makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. [laughter] I was always attracted to those book. I've been a Kirby fan since I was a kid.

Westfield: How did you become involved with this project?

Starlin: Dan DiDio came up to me and he said, because, for some reason, folks think I have this way with death, "We want to end the Kirby New Gods series. There are some plans for the names, like Mister Miracle, but basically this thing's been around for 30 years and, as popular as Darkseid is, we don't know what to do with the rest of it." He asked me if I'd put a period to the saga. After having looked back at all the things that have been done over the last 30 years, I'd say about half the stuff that came out of New Gods after Kirby should never have been printed. There were some real high points like Walt Simonson's Orion and John Byrne did a beautiful job drawing his New Gods and Fourth World stuff. But, for the most part, nothing was added. So, in some ways, I sort of figure this is putting an end to it and giving Kirby and his work a final rest.

[Cayman]

Then they would've just gotten an inferior writer to do it.

Honestly, it doesn't matter. I mean, it's not like very many people other than Kirby have properly used the characters, and Kirby's dead.

But he would emerge with integrity unscathed.

[Sean Whitmore]

But he would emerge with integrity unscathed.

Integrity doesn't keep the lights on, though.

Starlin's already burned his bridges with Marvel, I can't imagine he'd wanna do the same with DC.


SEAN

[Cash Lone]

Orion was one of the best things DC put out late 99/2000.

"We dont know what to do with them" - freakin' lame.

New Gods are great. I think I read somewhere that Kirby was going to Kill off Thor in the Marvel Universe (Ragnarok) and the New Gods were what was going to take his place.

[Captain Jim]

Westfield: What interested you about this project?

Jim Starlin: I've always been a big fan of Jack Kirby's New Gods. Just before I got into this business, Jack went over to DC and was doing them. I followed those stories, salivating every time a new one came out. [laughs] My favorite of course, was the New Gods. Probably my least favorite was Mister Miracle. I don't know why. It just never appealed to me as much. So it's interesting that he's the main character, more or less, in this series. It was Jack at his best. Kirby didn't have Stan to polish up the writing, it was just pouring out ideas faster than he could actually put them down so they'd made sense. There are things in that series that are just so terrific, like Orion. On the other end, you've got the Black Racer, who makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. [laughter] I was always attracted to those book. I've been a Kirby fan since I was a kid.

Westfield: How did you become involved with this project?

Starlin: Dan DiDio came up to me and he said, because, for some reason, folks think I have this way with death, "We want to end the Kirby New Gods series. There are some plans for the names, like Mister Miracle, but basically this thing's been around for 30 years and, as popular as Darkseid is, we don't know what to do with the rest of it." He asked me if I'd put a period to the saga. After having looked back at all the things that have been done over the last 30 years, I'd say about half the stuff that came out of New Gods after Kirby should never have been printed. There were some real high points like Walt Simonson's Orion and John Byrne did a beautiful job drawing his New Gods and Fourth World stuff. But, for the most part, nothing was added. So, in some ways, I sort of figure this is putting an end to it and giving Kirby and his work a final rest.

Great interview.

[Captain Jim]

He could've said 'no'.


But he would emerge with integrity unscathed.

Uh, you do understand that they're not real, don't you?

[Cayman]

Uh, you do understand that they're not real, don't you?

Sure, but that doesn't make the project any less idiotic.

[Corrina]

Yeah, with all due respect to Jack Kirby, the New Gods never really caught on with me either. The only thing from the whole New Gods mythos that has ever mattered to me was the introduction of Darkseid, who became the first great cosmic villain in the DCU, but that isn't dependent on his New Gods roots.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

The recent Superman animated series did some really interesting things with the New Gods.

[Cayman]

If DC doesn't have any creators with the imagination to use these characters effectively, why not leave them in limbo until someone comes along who does?

[smoothjokes]

Honestly, I think Grant Morrison is going to re-boot them after Final Crisis. He's the only guy that really gets the concept now-a-days. I mean hell if Walt Simonson wanted to do it, give it to him, his Orion series was extremely good. If you can find that in TPB buy it.

[Rod G]

One thing's for sure.

The Black Racer is gonna be extremely busy.

[adam_warlock_2099]

I didn't read the Newsarama interview, but there's another one with him over at WestfieldComics.com. It's a framed site and I couldn't link to the page, but it's not hard to find. Anyway, here's what he had to say about Kirby and the New Gods. Doesn't sound like he was anti- the New Gods or anything.

I dunno, maybe he said "yes" because DC had made the decision to kill them off and it was going to happen anyway, and he felt he could do it better than somebody else could have. As I recall that was why he took the Death of Captain Marvel assignment, too. Marvel told him they were going to kill him off, and Starlin felt he could do a better job of it than anyone else. And he could, and did.




Westfield: What interested you about this project?

Jim Starlin: I've always been a big fan of Jack Kirby's New Gods. Just before I got into this business, Jack went over to DC and was doing them. I followed those stories, salivating every time a new one came out. [laughs] My favorite of course, was the New Gods. Probably my least favorite was Mister Miracle. I don't know why. It just never appealed to me as much. So it's interesting that he's the main character, more or less, in this series. It was Jack at his best. Kirby didn't have Stan to polish up the writing, it was just pouring out ideas faster than he could actually put them down so they'd made sense. There are things in that series that are just so terrific, like Orion. On the other end, you've got the Black Racer, who makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. [laughter] I was always attracted to those book. I've been a Kirby fan since I was a kid.

Westfield: How did you become involved with this project?

Starlin: Dan DiDio came up to me and he said, because, for some reason, folks think I have this way with death, "We want to end the Kirby New Gods series. There are some plans for the names, like Mister Miracle, but basically this thing's been around for 30 years and, as popular as Darkseid is, we don't know what to do with the rest of it." He asked me if I'd put a period to the saga. After having looked back at all the things that have been done over the last 30 years, I'd say about half the stuff that came out of New Gods after Kirby should never have been printed. There were some real high points like Walt Simonson's Orion and John Byrne did a beautiful job drawing his New Gods and Fourth World stuff. But, for the most part, nothing was added. So, in some ways, I sort of figure this is putting an end to it and giving Kirby and his work a final rest.

Nice interview, thanks for sharing it.

Nice avatar too. :D

[adam_warlock_2099]

But he would emerge with integrity unscathed.

I'm just trying to understand your point of view . . . . would his integrity be scathed because he is working on something Jack Kirby created?

I mean cuz believe me, I was pissed at both sides of the issues that got Thanos' series cancelled. I'm also pissed off that Gap uses "Back in Black" for their commercials.

But just like about every medium, then writers, singers, actors, artists, etc. didn't think to own their own work They trusted the publishers or didn't think to NOT trust them, whatever. In the end Marvel owns the characters, and Starlin, who has bills like all of us do, accepted the offer, so that he could pay those bills.

[Cayman]

I'm just trying to understand your point of view . . . . would his integrity be scathed because he is working on something Jack Kirby created?

I mean cuz believe me, I was pissed at both sides of the issues that got Thanos' series cancelled. I'm also pissed off that Gap uses "Back in Black" for their commercials.

But just like about every medium, then writers, singers, actors, artists, etc. didn't think to own their own work They trusted the publishers or didn't think to NOT trust them, whatever. In the end Marvel owns the characters, and Starlin, who has bills like all of us do, accepted the offer, so that he could pay those bills.

No, it's because he's destroying something Jack Kirby created that is still both viable and worthwhile simply for a paycheck just because Didio doesn't know what to do with them.

[adam_warlock_2099]

No, it's because he's destroying something Jack Kirby created that is still both viable and worthwhile simply for a paycheck just because Didio doesn't know what to do with them.

I can understand that. But that is what people have always done with Starlin for some reason. With COIE being one of the few major "clean-up" events that he hasn't been a part of, it seems that he is the man to do the job, if he chooses to do so.

But, as I said, I understand your distain for what Didio is hiring Starlin to do.

[4thHorseman]

No, it's because he's destroying something Jack Kirby created that is still both viable and worthwhile simply for a paycheck just because Didio doesn't know what to do with them.

Destroying? As far as we know, this could be one of the best things in the New Gods story. He could be creating something new for it as far as we know. All we do know is, New Gods are going to die. Suddenly the whole story becomes "Kirby's being dumped on by DC"....

[Kevinroc]

Destroying? As far as we know, this could be one of the best things in the New Gods story. He could be creating something new for it as far as we know. All we do know is, New Gods are going to die. Suddenly the whole story becomes "Kirby's being dumped on by DC"....

People have this attitude because DC has killed so many other characters recently.

[XPac]

I was a huge fan of the last Orion series. So I'm not sure why anyone at DC would not see the value in the New Gods. Under the right people, it can be an excellent property.

But I suppose it doesn't matter either way. The way DC keeps rebooting itself with Crisis after Crisis, it's easy enough to imagine the returning.

Really, killing them off is just filler due to DC's lack of imagination as far as using them.

[Cayman]

Destroying? As far as we know, this could be one of the best things in the New Gods story. He could be creating something new for it as far as we know. All we do know is, New Gods are going to die. Suddenly the whole story becomes "Kirby's being dumped on by DC"....

Then perhaps they should be promoting it as such, rather than calling it a "mercy killing".

[4thHorseman]

Then perhaps they should be promoting it as such, rather than calling it a "mercy killing".

Yeah, unfortunately they should if it is indeed just a great change.

But to Didio...death sells....

Who knows, it might make the surprise that much better
















Hopefully

[Cayman]

Yeah, unfortunately they should if it is indeed just a great change.

But to Didio...death sells....

Who knows, it might make the surprise that much better
















Hopefully

Well, I'll be making it a point to avoid the mini so we'll see what's up when it's all over.

[Magneto Rocks]

I was a huge fan of the last Orion series. So I'm not sure why anyone at DC would not see the value in the New Gods. Under the right people, it can be an excellent property.

But I suppose it doesn't matter either way. The way DC keeps rebooting itself with Crisis after Crisis, it's easy enough to imagine the returning.

Really, killing them off is just filler due to DC's lack of imagination as far as using them.

For once, XPac, we COMPLETELY agree on everything.

[botch]

What bothers me about all this is that it's always been common knowledge that the Fourth World story HAD an ending(Orion fulfilling the prophecy that he destroys Darkseid) but Kirby never got to finish it because it got cancelled and then he died before he could get around to it. And it's common knowledge that no one has attempted to finish the story out of respect for Kirby, but Didio goes "we don't know what to do with them so let's finish it" and that's it and to hand it to Starlin? Wouldn't this require a mega writer like Morrison or even more so Alan Moore(which wouldn't happen) but it needs high high quality calibre. Why is Starlin handling this and not Morrison. I thought Morrison was going to deal with this in Final Crisis.

[Phoney Bone]

I'm pretty sure the reason Didio says that DC doesn't know what to do with the characters is because everything has been tried... and failed!

Some of the greatest comic book creators in the history of the medium have tried every approach imaginable to the Fourth World characters created by Jack kirby. Some good, some bad, and some great.

No matter how good a Fourth World title can be, the characters don't have any lasting popularity to support a title for any significant legnth of time. Darkseid only became a top-tier villian after the Legion of Super-Heroes "The Great Darkness Saga"... and he was the only actual Fourth World character in the story except for the Highfather and Orion dark clones. A case could be made for Mr. Miracle and Big barda in Justice League International, but they appeared in the book far less than their sidekick Oberon!

The only other time the Fourth World characters reached "Great Darkness" or JLI popularity was in comics hocking the "Super Powers" toy line.

Maybe the Grant Morrison re-imagining of The New Gods will catch on after the Final Crisis. Other than Darkseid, the Kirby Fourth World characters have been dead as a franchise for a long time.

[CYOTI]

I was a huge fan of the last Orion series. So I'm not sure why anyone at DC would not see the value in the New Gods. Under the right people, it can be an excellent property.
Then why was Orion cancelled 2/3 into Simonson's run? Why is it almost every incarnation of them has gotten canned?

[Magneto Rocks]

One thing's for sure.

The Black Racer is gonna be extremely busy.

I doubt it since it looks like Starlin's offing him in issue one.

[adam_warlock_2099]

What bothers me about all this is that it's always been common knowledge that the Fourth World story HAD an ending(Orion fulfilling the prophecy that he destroys Darkseid) but Kirby never got to finish it because it got cancelled and then he died before he could get around to it. And it's common knowledge that no one has attempted to finish the story out of respect for Kirby, but Didio goes "we don't know what to do with them so let's finish it" and that's it and to hand it to Starlin? Wouldn't this require a mega writer like Morrison or even more so Alan Moore(which wouldn't happen) but it needs high high quality calibre. Why is Starlin handling this and not Morrison. I thought Morrison was going to deal with this in Final Crisis.

Because Starlin is the go-to man when someone wants something ended. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of Morrisons work (he got me to pick up X-Men after a long time of not reading it), but, in my personal opinion, I think Starlin is the man to do it.

Think about all the the characters he has killed and reimagined (Warlock) and the "events" that he has done of this magnatude (Infinity Gauntlet, Marvel Universe: The End, Cosmic Oddessy).

Just my opinion, though. I'm looking forward to it.

[botch]

Because Starlin is the go-to man when someone wants something ended. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of Morrisons work (he got me to pick up X-Men after a long time of not reading it), but, in my personal opinion, I think Starlin is the man to do it.

Think about all the the characters he has killed and reimagined (Warlock) and the "events" that he has done of this magnatude (Infinity Gauntlet, Marvel Universe: The End, Cosmic Oddessy).

Just my opinion, though. I'm looking forward to it.

The point I was trying to make was that no one has attempted to finish the saga out of respect for Kirby, and then they decide to do it and hand it to Starlin, not someone mega huge/epic/godlike.

[Joe Acro]

The point I was trying to make was that no one has attempted to finish the saga out of respect for Kirby, and then they decide to do it and hand it to Starlin, not someone mega huge/epic/godlike.Read Dreadstar. Then you'll know how epic Starlin can be.

[Cayman]

I'm pretty sure the reason Didio says that DC doesn't know what to do with the characters is because everything has been tried... and failed!


Bah! As long as there are writers with imagination and talent everything has not been tried.

[adam_warlock_2099]

The point I was trying to make was that no one has attempted to finish the saga out of respect for Kirby, and then they decide to do it and hand it to Starlin, not someone mega huge/epic/godlike.

Not in the sense of Kirby, no.

And I wasn't all trying to derail your opinion either. I hope that my comment didn't come out that way.

[adam_warlock_2099]

Read Dreadstar. Then you'll know how epic Starlin can be.

Oh God yes! :)

Also, Gilgamesh II, Cosmic Guard, Wyrd, and Hardcore Station.

[berk]

I'm pretty sure the reason Didio says that DC doesn't know what to do with the characters is because everything has been tried... and failed!

Some of the greatest comic book creators in the history of the medium have tried every approach imaginable to the Fourth World characters created by Jack kirby. Some good, some bad, and some great.

No matter how good a Fourth World title can be, the characters don't have any lasting popularity to support a title for any significant legnth of time. Darkseid only became a top-tier villian after the Legion of Super-Heroes "The Great Darkness Saga"... and he was the only actual Fourth World character in the story except for the Highfather and Orion dark clones. A case could be made for Mr. Miracle and Big barda in Justice League International, but they appeared in the book far less than their sidekick Oberon!

The only other time the Fourth World characters reached "Great Darkness" or JLI popularity was in comics hocking the "Super Powers" toy line.

Maybe the Grant Morrison re-imagining of The New Gods will catch on after the Final Crisis. Other than Darkseid, the Kirby Fourth World characters have been dead as a franchise for a long time.Actually very little has been tried, as far as I can see. That is, the same thing has been tried over and over again with what by now should be predictable results. That one thing is turning the New Gods concept into an adjunct of the Superman/JLA story, which explains very simply exactly why Darkseid is the only character to gain prominence: in the New Gods story, Orion and various other New Genesis gods are the protagonists, but in order for the whole thing to function in the current editorial/fan conception of the DCU, their place has tpo be taken by more conventional DC heroes, usually Superman. Basically, now that Darkseid has been dumbed down to (at best) the DCU's Thanos, or more commonly, just another member of Superman's 'rogues gallery', there isn't any viable place for Orion et al. (I notice that even in Starlin'she upcoming 'Death of the New Gods,' which you'd think at least would give the New Gods the starring role, Superman is going to play an important part). So it isn't a weakness in the characters or conception that's relegated these characters to obscurity, but a weakness of imagination on the part of DC's editors and the writers who follow their guidelines.

To be fair there have been a couple attempts at giving the New Gods their own story back. Simonson's Orion is the most recent and the only one I'm familiar with and, despite its failure to garner any popular fan support I wouldn't regard it as an artistic failure. Its commercial failure I put down to the state of fandom today - what the average DC/Marvel reader wants to read is basically a rehash of the popular brand-name characters that emphasizes their wish-fulfillment aspect. The New Gods are never going to be popular in that kind of market or with that sort of reader.

The only real case of something new and original being tried with the concept recently - perhaps ever - is Morrison's Mister Miracle in his Seven Soldiers. I'm still not sure how it would have worked out as New Gods story, but at least it was imaginative and original. Unfortunately it appears that the only opportunity Morrison's going to get to develop his ideas for the concept will be in the pages of the Final Crisis mini, which I suspect will basically be a Superman/Batman/WW/JLA type story, with I fear the usual results.

[Magneto Rocks]

Read Dreadstar. Then you'll know how epic Starlin can be.

Read Cosmic Odyssey. Then you'll realise how truly godawful he can also be.

[adam_warlock_2099]

Actually very little has been tried, as far as I can see. That is, the same thing has been tried over and over again with what by now should be predictable results. That one thing is turning the New Gods concept into an adjunct of the Superman/JLA story, which explains very simply exactly why Darkseid is the only character to gain prominence: in the New Gods story, Orion and various other New Genesis gods are the protagonists, but in order for the whole thing to function in the current editorial/fan conception of the DCU, their place has tpo be taken by more conventional DC heroes, usually Superman. Basically, now that Darkseid has been dumbed down to (at best) the DCU's Thanos, or more commonly, just another member of Superman's 'rogues gallery', there isn't any viable place for Orion et al. (I notice that even in Starlin'she upcoming 'Death of the New Gods,' which you'd think at least would give the New Gods the starring role, Superman is going to play an important part). So it isn't a weakness in the characters or conception that's relegated these characters to obscurity, but a weakness of imagination on the part of DC's editors and the writers who follow their guidelines.

To be fair there have been a couple attempts at giving the New Gods their own story back. Simonson's Orion is the most recent and the only one I'm familiar with and, despite its failure to garner any popular fan support I wouldn't regard it as an artistic failure. Its commercial failure I put down to the state of fandom today - what the average DC/Marvel reader wants to read is basically a rehash of the popular brand-name characters that emphasizes their wish-fulfillment aspect. The New Gods are never going to be popular in that kind of market or with that sort of reader.

The only real case of something new and original being tried with the concept recently - perhaps ever - is Morrison's Mister Miracle in his Seven Soldiers. I'm still not sure how it would have worked out as New Gods story, but at least it was imaginative and original. Unfortunately it appears that the only opportunity Morrison's going to get to develop his ideas for the concept will be in the pages of the Final Crisis mini, which I suspect will basically be a Superman/Batman/WW/JLA type story, with I fear the usual results.

There is no room for anything that isn't mainstream. Or like you said, a commercial success. (Which still amazes me that Annihilation has had success). This generation of readers don't want cosmic and fantastic. They want stories of horrific "reality" and not fiction. That has left little room for great characters like the New Gods, and what will no doubt be the soon to be cancelled Thor. Why? I dunno know, but I know that I don't want a world of comics like "The Boys".