The all-purpose pen-and-paper RPG megathread

[Paladin]

I've only heard the initial buzz but they've pushed the timeline forward, the "new Matrix" overlays the real world so Deckers are now sort of technomages and the rules have been "streamlined". What is your take folks?


Me, I think it is shite that the Deckers have been boosted, I liked playing a Decker because they where inconspicuous, nobody but the Faceman or Covert Ops archetypes was better at blending in in SR3 and you ussually had enough points and nuyen left over from your essentials to make your matrix-monkey pretty cool in combat. Plus a good decker was damn scary because it did not matter where you went, a good decker would find your trail on the matrix and proceed to make life drek for you, too many old speeding tickets? suddenly the cops in your new 'hood are thinking you committed vehicular homicide, late on your taxes? suddenly some very nice people from the government are at your doorstep, null sheen...

[UncleBob]

I haven't played it in years... all I remember was Physical Adepts = OMGMAXIMUMPWNAGE!

[Paladin]

Only if you play them smart so you don't start getting hit with deadly damage alot, losing a power after the badass final battle with the massively pumped security forces sucks royally. I preffered running a combat decker because your team needed you, if you didn't watch their asses on the matrix chances are they died, and if stuff got too hairy off-line you just jumped back in your meat body and where almost as good as a street sammie.

[Perry Holley]

the "new Matrix" overlays the real world so Deckers are now sort of technomages and the rules have been "streamlined". What is your take folks?Without having read anything else regarding this, I suspect the change related to deckers is designed to avoid the problem of 'Bob the decker is trying to hack into the corp's security... everyone else gets to twiddle their thumbs for the next half hour while this gets played out'.

As for streamlinging the rules, anything that makes the SR rules more coherent... okay, makes them at all coherent, is fine by me.

[Shellhead]

Shadowrun = Cyberpunk for role-players who refuse to be weaned off of the Tolkien tit. And cheap bastards who won't buy more miniatures.

[Perry Holley]

And cheap bastards who won't buy more miniatures.Hey! I resemble that remark!

[GremlinClr]

I miss ShadowRun. Haven't played in about 3 years.

Without having read anything else regarding this, I suspect the change related to deckers is designed to avoid the problem of 'Bob the decker is trying to hack into the corp's security... everyone else gets to twiddle their thumbs for the next half hour while this gets played out'.

Yea, I gotta agree with that. When it was time for the decker to do their thing usually everybody got up for a piss break or made a sandwich. I enjoyed running one tho.

[Shellhead]

Yea, I gotta agree with that. When it was time for the decker to do their thing usually everybody got up for a piss break or made a sandwich. I enjoyed running one tho.

That was a real problem with Cyberpunk, too, though Cyberpunk 2020 found a lame rationalization for dragging the rest of the group along for the hack. Then they came up with an even better way, which involved a mechanism using cards from the Netrunner CCG to resolve the hacks. I've played that CCG and it was a good game, but I was done with the RPG by the time that the CCG came along. Maybe someday I will give Cyberpunk another try and attempt to use the cards.

[Chuckg]

*sigh* so, now deckers get reality-warping powers?

... you know, this may sound like heresy, but "The Matrix" appears to be reaching out from its grave to kill the entire cyberpunk RPG genre.

I much prefer Ex Machina's (Tri-Stat Cyberpunk) idea... which was, if netrunning was fuggin' up the game, get rid of netrunning and go back to Hacking skill rolls.

Voila.

... btw, have I said yet that I /really/ like Ex Machina? (Well, except for the 'Underworld' and 'Daedalus' setting chapters.)

[Perry Holley]

I much prefer Ex Machina's (Tri-Stat Cyberpunk) idea... which was, if netrunning was fuggin' up the game, get rid of netrunning and go back to Hacking skill rolls.The Spacetime RPG (I suspect I'm about the only person who actually played it) treated hacking in a similar way; one skill roll to see whether you succeeded or not, no extended 'dungeon crawl through the net' mechanics.

Actually, they did have 'extended netrunning rules' in one of the modules, but I always ignored those.

[Smokey]

i remember this game being on sega and me getting tired of it :\

[Perry Holley]

4th ed FAQ (http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=16500&mode=thread&order=0)

[Metal-Demon]

Based on the comic by Mark Smylie ... has anyone seen it or played it yet?

[Inkthinker]

A p&p RPG?

Smylie's series is one of the most intricately detailed and well-designed... it's a shame I don't see more of it, or that it doesn't recieve more attention.

[Metal-Demon]

Yes, a Pen & Paper RPG ... as far as I know it was supposed to be out last December, but I've not seen anything about it since.

(In fact I think is was even solicited in Previews last year ... )

[Shellhead]

I much prefer Ex Machina's (Tri-Stat Cyberpunk) idea... which was, if netrunning was fuggin' up the game, get rid of netrunning and go back to Hacking skill rolls.


That's probably the only practical way to handle it.

The hacking idea is fun enough to support a game on it's own. That Netrunner CCG was a little unbalanced but very fun. Steve Jackson Games published a multi-player boardgame (well, no board, just cards, but it worked like a boardgame) called Hacker, which actually got them some serious harassment from the Secret Service.

In the PC computer game Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, there are many situations where you can try to hack the password on a computer. You can actually try two different methods... you can try to guess passwords, literally hacking in the old school sense, or you can hit ctrl-c and have the game compare your hacking ability with the difficulty level of the password. The guessing is not impossible, in some locations there are clues to what the password might be, which is not unrealistic. I have actually seen offices where the user taped the password on the wall, or pinned it to their bulletin board, or even taped it right on the keyboard. Sure, that's stupid, but not everybody who uses a computer these days is smart.

[Chuckg]

I don't see anything in that FAQ about deckers being 'technomages'.

[lonewolf23k]

*sigh* so, now deckers get reality-warping powers?

... you know, this may sound like heresy, but "The Matrix" appears to be reaching out from its grave to kill the entire cyberpunk RPG genre.

I much prefer Ex Machina's (Tri-Stat Cyberpunk) idea... which was, if netrunning was fuggin' up the game, get rid of netrunning and go back to Hacking skill rolls.

Voila.

... btw, have I said yet that I /really/ like Ex Machina? (Well, except for the 'Underworld' and 'Daedalus' setting chapters.)

Actually, from my understanding, it's more as if Deckers basically do what they always do, only with a wireless connection now. So the Decker basically comes along on the Run, to hack into the system as needed from inside the building, without having to sit down, plug in and pull off a matrix run while everyone is twiddling their thumbs.

In other words, the Matrix 2.0 sounds more like Virtuality in Talsorian's Cybergeneration game: a real-time computer network that permeates the real world, connecting electronics all over the place.

[lonewolf23k]

I don't see anything in that FAQ about deckers being 'technomages'.

*reads* ...Neither do I.

Q. Are deckers called hackers in SR4?
A. Yes. We’re eliminating the clunky old cyberdeck in SR4, and with no ‘deck, it doesn’t make much sense to call them deckers.

No more cyberdeck? ...Ok, now this has potential.

[Metaphysician]

Okay, ever heard of FATAL??

Its being put out in a print edition. A revised print edition.

Hastur!! Hastur!! Hastur!! Hastur!! Hastur. . . . . .

[Traveler the 1st]

...They found someone to print it?

[Daemon]

well if they're just printing it out that shouldn't neccessarilly make it a 2nd edition.

and if you have enough money you can get anything printed. :p

[Phrozen]

Normally, I don't endorse book burning but with this I will make an exception. Get your torches and pitchforks people.

[Tages]

Okay, ever heard of FATAL??

Its being put out in a print edition. A revised print edition.

Hastur!! Hastur!! Hastur!! Hastur!! Hastur. . . . . .
.................................................. ..........

The Death Spiral thread seems so...petty to me now...

[Scorpion13]

no.......no.....NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!


*Leaps out a nearby window*

[Traveler the 1st]

(arms everyone with torches,pitchforks,swords,flamethrowers,morphers,F irst Age equipment made by the greatest smiths therein,and so on)

[Traveler the 1st]

no.......no.....NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!


*Leaps out a nearby window*
(catches him and drags him back through the window)If the rest of us are marching to war against this thing,you're coming with us.Besides,it'll follow you through death probably.

[Scorpion13]

(catches him and drags him back through the window)If the rest of us are marching to war against this thing,you're coming with us.Besides,it'll follow you through death probably.


*sniff* Will....will there be action and adventure?

[Phrozen]

*sniff* Will....will there be action and adventure?

There will be lots of violence.

[Chuckg]

Thanks to this news, on top of everything else that's gone wrong recently, I now have a SAN score that's so low that *I* drive the *Mythos* crazy, not vice versa.

[Crinos]

*sniff* Will....will there be action and adventure?

People are going to be kicked in the balls. (At least if I have any say in it.) does that count?

But hey, I'll play devils advocate, maybe theyll fix what was wrong in the first edition with this new one.

(Which is to say that they'll burn it, wipe any evidence of its existance from the face of creation, then photocopy the 3 dnd core books and the BOVD and release it with the names crossed out and Fatal written over it.)

[Scorpion13]

When Cthulhu read FATAL, he moved to Newport Rhode Island and became a CPA.

[Crinos]

I bet the people who wrote "Identity Crisis" Play FATAL.

(For that Matter, I bet Dr. Light and Black Mask play FATAL in their downtime.)

[Scorpion13]

People are going to be kicked in the balls. (At least if I have any say in it.) does that count?

But hey, I'll play devils advocate, maybe theyll fix what was wrong in the first edition with this new one.

(Which is to say that they'll burn it, wipe any evidence of its existance from the face of creation, then photocopy the 3 dnd core books and the BOVD and release it with the names crossed out and Fatal written over it.)


Well, if theres too fisted action involved, Im in. I got all this Thermite just sitting here.

And you just know the nudnick who released the first ED hasnt learned a Goddamn thing. The rules are gonna be cleaned up, but I think the flavor text (Oh God, I just made myself gag. FATAL's flavor text? *vomits*) is gonna be worse.

And sweet Holy Mother, somebody wants to publish it!???

[Infinity Chameleon]

When Cthulhu read FATAL, he moved to Newport Rhode Island and became a CPA.

Comedy gold.

[Crinos]

Well, if theres too fisted action involved, Im in. I got all this Thermite just sitting here.

And you just know the nudnick who released the first ED hasnt learned a Goddamn thing. The rules are gonna be cleaned up, but I think the flavor text (Oh God, I just made myself gag. FATAL's flavor text? *vomits*) is gonna be worse.

And sweet Holy Mother, somebody wants to publish it!???

Why do I have a sudden premonition that the name of the publisher has the words "National socialist white peoples party" somewhere in it.?

[Scorpion13]

The Klan and most other orgs are Christian. They think most of what is on TV today is offensive, and not just from a racial standpoint. They would never publish FATAL.

So what Im saying is that Nazis and Klan members consider FATAL to be below them.

[BitVyper]

Okay, someone better tell me what this is. I usually like to know what I'm rallying against.

Oh, and if this (http://snerk.250free.com/nickytroll/story_01.htm) can get published, anything can.

[Phrozen]

Okay, someone better tell me what this is. I usually like to know what I'm rallying against.

Oh, and if this (http://snerk.250free.com/nickytroll/story_01.htm) can get published, anything can.

Think of every disturbing thing that humanity has ever done, roll in some dystopian alternate universes, and sprinkle liberally with extreme sexual perversion.

[Chuckg]

The original game review of FATAL:

http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/fatal.html

The rpg.net thread that mentions (offhand) that FATAL will see print, and contains (on page 4) a link to the updated PDF version of FATAL:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=180687

[Crinos]

The Klan and most other orgs are Christian. They think most of what is on TV today is offensive, and not just from a racial standpoint. They would never publish FATAL.

So what Im saying is that Nazis and Klan members consider FATAL to be below them.

Hmmph, good point.

There's actually a form of life lower than racists. I'd consider this a important scientific discovery if I wasnt too busy weeping uncontrollably.

[JeffreyWKramer]

The world's worst idea....

FATAL LARP.

Now roll d100 SAN loss.

[Z-man]

Think of every disturbing thing that humanity has ever done, roll in some dystopian alternate universes, and sprinkle liberally with extreme sexual perversion.

Don't forget an unplayable game system

[Z-man]

Hmmph, good point.

There's actually a form of life lower than racists. I'd consider this a important scientific discovery if I wasnt too busy weeping uncontrollably.

Frankly, I've always thought that rapists were lower than racists.

[Scorpion13]

RPG.net had to remove the review for FATAL because even 8 months after it was originally posted, people where still fightng about it.

Thats right. People where actually defending this abomination.

[Scorpion13]

The world's worst idea....

FATAL LARP.

Now roll d100 SAN loss.

Yeah, its funny now, but youre gonna feel the same way Einstein did after they made the Atomic Bomb.

[Metaphysician]

Why do I have a sudden premonition that the name of the publisher has the words "National socialist white peoples party" somewhere in it.?

No, thats Racial Holy War. :(

[heretic]

Thanks to this news, on top of everything else that's gone wrong recently, I now have a SAN score that's so low that *I* drive the *Mythos* crazy, not vice versa.I am well aware that I shall suffer for asking... but what is the FATAL and why is it so bad?

HTG (wondering if you folks mean Dirty Pair: Fatal But Not Serious which I found amusing)

[Scorpion13]

No, no. Dirty Pair is decidedly clean compared to FATAL. Chuck posted a link to the site that explains it all.

[Radical]

Well, if theres too fisted action involved, Im in. I got all this Thermite just sitting here.\

And I'm ready to decapitate entire platoons with one sword-swing! (I swing really wide, so...just watch your distance, OK?)

[Yogi]

The worst part is, the RPG gets (http://www.gamewyrd.com/review/567) good (http://www.rpg-index.com/gamedetail.php?id=1418) reviews (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_5754.html), as in three of thr first four googled searches are positive reviews.

[Peter]

Okay, ever heard of FATAL??

Its being put out in a print edition. A revised print edition.

You know, you take a vacation for a few days from the board, and this kind of thing happens. Honestly, people.

It is really quite staggering that somebody actually decided to publish it. That trees are being murdered to further this is a sin. That a publisher actually looked at this and thought, "hey, why not?" is a crime upon nature.

*sigh*

*reaches for Ultimate Nullifier*

Man, I'm gettin' some use out of this thing lately...

[Donald M.]

C'mon guys, how can you not love a game that has you roll the dice to determine areola hue?

Good lord, I don't know much about P&P RPGs, but I know complete and utter unmitigated crap when I see it.

[Metaphysician]

The worst part is, the RPG gets (http://www.gamewyrd.com/review/567) good (http://www.rpg-index.com/gamedetail.php?id=1418) reviews (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_5754.html), as in three of thr first four googled searches are positive reviews.

. . .I hate humanity.

[Scorpion13]

What kind of ignorant ape would give that thing anything but a -7? I love how in that first review the reviewer said it was easy to ignore the sexual content. This man can also sleep whilst on fire too, apparently.

[Michael P]

they've got to be self-publishing. That's the only possible answer. Even PublishAmerica wouldn't print this.

[Gaz]

Odd thing is, it'll sell decently. The "car crash voyeur" effect, you know it's horrible and disturbing, but you have to look to see just HOW bad it is.

[Michael P]

OK, so because I'm stupid, I clicked on that .pdf link.

Damn thing’s 109 pages. The mind boggles. Let's have some fun, shall we?

I will give them credit: On the cover, there is a "Parental Advisory: Explicit Content" label. Right next to the naked woman with a chain around her neck. Also, the game apparently comes with a free CD-ROM. I do NOT want to know what is on this CD-ROM.

There's that phrase we all know and love: "The dice never lie."

Frontispiece: Naked woman bound by her arms, legs, and neck to an altar, but not too tightly, since she can still raise her left leg and tilt her head in what I assume is supposed to be a seductive pose. On the altar, we finally learn what FATAL stands for: "From Another Time, Another Land." Interactive fun: Come up with your own acronym using the same five letters.

The author is identified as Byron Hall. Finally, after all this time, a name has been put to the evil.

The Library of Congress page gives us an address as well. Reprinted here for your own amusement (In which I accept no legal culpability): 3100 MInnesota Ave., Suite 204W, Kansas City, KS, 66012. Please remember that all packages over one pound must be sent at Priority Mail rates.

FIRST TYPO! And it's in the credits, sadly. One of their artists, a Mr. "Steven MnMoorn."

"Garamond was accepted as the main font due to its historical accuracy." You can figure out for yourselves what that sentence means.

"FATAL paper burns exceptionally well." He's taunting us, dammit.

“email: fatalgames@excite.com” Aside from giving insight into how reputable a “publisher” FATAL Games is, this is another useful tool. Where’d I put that letter from Nigeria…

“Any similarity to actual people, organizations, places, or events is purely coincidental.” That disclaimer has never been more true.

And now we enter the meat of the game, and right away he tells a humongous whopper: “Welcome to a fantasy medieval role-playing game that focuses on realism and detailw henever possible without sacrificing fun.” There are numerous lies in this statement, as well as a rather slanderous assumption of what the average person considers “fun.”

“Fantasy and Historical Accuracy”

Pardon me while I laugh at this statement.

“Since the fantastic tenets above contradict historical accuracy, the relationship will be clarified. Since multiple gods exist in the game, Christianity has been extracted or minimized from historical references. Although the technology of the game represents 1335 AD, many elements of pagan cultures are included in this fantasy medieval game.”

It goes on, but the gist is, it’s historically accurate in that they read some history books, took out what they wanted, and left the rest. In other words, just like The Da Vinci Code! Also, if he really wanted to be historically accurate, he would have called it “1335 CE,” or at least put the AD in front of the year, as is proper among people who still use that date.

The explanation of role-playing games parrots the old line about maybe the knight wants to rescue the princess, or maybe he wants to rape or eat her. Or rather, “kill her, dismember her young cadaver, and feast on her warm innards.” It is at this point that the rational mind puts down the 900-page book in front of them and backs away. I, however, soldier on.

Necessary materials: He recommends having a copy of the book for each player, as “it will be used often.” No kidding. There’s also dice (no 100-sided ones, oddly enough), pencils, paper, etc. He also recommends a book called “Neveria” for those wishing to play priests & clerics; I googled this and was horrified to realize it is yet another FATAL publication, this one detailing the history and society of some fantasy world Hall has set up. That’s right: He made an FR-style expansion. Weep for humanity. “Calculators, while not required, are recommended.” Be afraid when your game tells you this. Be very afraid. He lists all this again at the end, with the books as “numerous copies of this book.” In your dreams, buddy.

Next he explains terminology and math. This consists of copping to using “they” in place of a gendered pronoun, which he doesn’t really need to apologize for or explain. He also defines d100 and d1000. That’s right, d1000. (You can just use 3 ten-sided die, with one digit for each position.) Math is an explanation of percentage multiplying, which any adult (remember, the game isn’t recommended for kids!) should be able to do anyway, and explaining that decimals will simply be deleted, so 53.96 = 53. Apparently, Byron feels rounding is too complex a concept for his players to grasp. Then again, given the estimated intelligence of anyone who actually wants to play FATAL, this may be a wise choice.

Roles: Here, Byron wanks over a history book. Instead of using something simple like “Game Master,” he pulls out an obscure Roman word for referee, “Aedile.” He then gives a pronunciation for the word. He does not pause to think about what the necessity of doing so says about the accessibility of his game.

Now we get to character creation. Stay calm and steady, friends. He mentions the character sheets available in Appendix 1; Appendix 1 is not included in the 109-page (yes, that’s right) pdf, so I can’t comment on it, but I believe the original rpg.net review said it was something like four pages.

“Each player must progress through this book, chapter by chapter, to create a character.” I record this because it will be important later.

“The fastest way to create a character is to use a computer program called the Fatal Character Generator, which is available free on-line.” Y’know, when Bioware created a program to speed through the D&D character creation process, they did so for fun, not because they had to.

Because I’m insane, I downloaded this generator, and directed it to randomly choose traits for me. It made me a male human (using the percentage tables found in Chapter 2, or so I’m told), then spat out some numbers I in no way comprehended as my sub-ability scores.

It was here that I made some sort of error. To which the generator responded, “Nice going, fuckhole! Try pressing the right button!” The insult doesn’t hurt, but the fact that this man considers himself a professional does.

After selecting not to reroll any of these abilites I don’t understand, the game tells me it’s going to determine my random mental illnesses. We have passed the point of anal attention to detail and wandered into the realm of psychosis. I am given the random phobia of “Cleptophobia” (sic), fear of stealing. I am told to refer to chapter 5 for an explanation. This implies that he explained every mental illness in chapter 5.

My random age: Young adult. Apparently, I could select to roleplay an infant, if I so desired.

Next, I am asked a question I never wanted to hear: “Would you like your character to have randomly generated sexual features?” For you, my readers, I clicked “Yes.”

Next I am shown my sub-ability scores again, this time with skill modifiers. My character is –10 on strength, -6 on bodily attractiveness, -21 on facial (yes, just facial; I dread to think what that means), -13 on Rhetorical, -6 on reaction speed but +3 on agility, -3 on language and math, -3 on intuition, -17 on reflection, and –25 on common sense. That last is apparent, since I’m using the FATAL Character Generator.

Overall ability scores and modifiers place me as a slightly strong, slightly ugly, averagely dextrous and intelligent, unwise person.

“Now to see your randomly generated bodily features.” I shudder at the thought.

My character is 5 feet tall, 102 pounds, male, 17 years old, 30 inches broad, has 9-inch feet, a 23-inch head, 21-inch long thick, curly brown hair, brown eyes, light skin, perfect natural vision, and is right-handed. His best feature is his waist (WTF), his worst his face. He has “big ears,” which for some reason means he is “perceived as being dumb.” Time to go adventuring!

And I finally get those randomly generated sexual features: My “manhood” is 5.35 inches long and 4.55 inches thick. Let’s stop and visualize that for a second.

Okay, you can stop screaming now. Other features are tongue length (1 inch), areola diameter (1 inch), areola hue (medium), nipple length (.25 inches), anal circumference (5 inches), sexuality (hetero), and debauchery score (only 6).

Random disposition, based on race: Ethically 47 (neutral), Morally 28 (neutral w/immoral tendencies), “Peity” (sic) 20 (has worshipped before, may worship again). This last is, if I recall, a new addition.

Too healthy for allergies; that’s good to know, if nonsensical.

Random temperament: Rolled a score for the four humour temperaments, came up with Melancholic Sanguine. I don’t care.

Randomly generated sociality: Born 2/24/5083 (so much for historical accuracy), legitimately (yay!), slave (boo), start with no money, illiterate, born in Hamlet, no brothers, four sisters, 4th out of my siblings, unhappily married (obviously, since I’m a fucking slave). I just rolled my damn backstory. Name: Stephen Barham.

And it’s over. The “fastest” method of creating a character took me about 20 minutes. Now, back to the PDF.

Hall’s math fetish is seen in this sentence: “For instance, when rolling a character’s sub-abilities, there are (199^22) combinations possible, before modifiers!” Um, yay.

Now we come upon the Mean System, the “realistic” method by which dice are rolled in FATAL. Make the obvious joke about the name yourself. Hall does: “A mean game needs a mean system.”

And the rest of page 7 is taken up by a disclaimer about the content. Violence and sex are included for “realism,” and so then must be rape, “the combination.” Here (and elsewhere) the “historical accuracy” is used as a shield, claiming that since rape happens so much in history and mythology, a “realistic” game must include it.

[Michael P]

The madness continues:

And now we come to the table of contents. (Apparently all that other stuff was superfluous.) Represented in all its glory:

Chapter 1: Race and Gender – 9
Chapter 2: Body – 40
Chapter 3: Abilities: 71
Chapter 4: Disposition - 104
Chapter 5: Mind – 127
Chapter 6: Sociality - 149
Chapter 7: Occupation – 205
Chapter 8: Skills – 320
Chapter 9: Equipment – 413
Chapter 10: Combat – 438
Chapter 11: Magic – 516
Chapter 12: Spells – 528
Chapter 13: Magical Items – 723
Chapter 14: Treasure – 782
Chapter 15: Conducting the Game – 791
Chapter 16: Advancement – 803
Chapter 17: Natural Substances – 807
Chapter 18: Warfare – 821
Appendix 1: Character Sheets – 838
Appendix 2: Spell Lists – 850
Appendix 3: Random Magical Effects – 865
Appendix 4: Phobias – 905
Appendix 5: Ingredients – 915
Appendix 6: Aedile Characters – 956
Appendix 7: Names – 965
Index – 982
References – 993
About Fatal Games – 995
Author – 996
Abettors – 996
Credits – 997

And remember, playing properly will require numerous copies!

Chapter one begins: “To begin creating a character, this chapter presents information on 2 of the 1st considerations: Race and gender.” “Race” and “gender” are footnoted. Yes, the book has footnotes. The footnotes tell us that the races have been selected from European mythology and folklore, and that gender is used in lieu of sex because “sex” might be mistaken with “sexual acts.” Well, in this game, that certainly is a consideration.

The Dung… I mean, Aedile gets to choose if races are determined by the players or randomly. Why? Because picking your race is so unrealistic! Random rolling is determined by a d100 and then consulting Table #1, the vanguard in a vast army. Using this realistic method, a player is most likely (50%) to be either a human or a kobold. Because, y’know, you can’t open a single European history book without reading about kobolds.

Pictured at the bottom are examples of all the races, naked. The human woman covers her crotch, and the ogre male is thankfully blocked from the chest down by the kobold, but everything else is showing.

The game recommends that beginners play all-human characters, and that even experienced parties avoid too much racial mixing, because it would “threaten group cohesion if role-played properly.” Yes, he’s telling players how to role-play their characters. And herein is the key fault of FATAL – it doesn’t let you do a damn thing yourself. All in the name of “realism,” of course.

Here come our first pictures, and they are despicable. In the midst of the four-page Anakim trait table comes a shot of an Anakim shoving a spear right through a guy, and another of an Anakim ripping the clothes from a struggling woman while a corpse with a knife through its heart occupies the foreground. All in the name of realism. This theme repeats itself throughout the chapter; the first clothed female (a human) shows up on page 26.

More fun: Elves get weaker and weaker the further they go from their home forest; he actually defines gruel in the kobold entry; dwarves turn to stone in the sun; common human last names include “Hall” and “Smith;” one subrace of ogres eats human children (“shoes are regurgitated 10% of the time, if applicable); racial hatreds are duly tabled and slurs catalogued.

Spersed throughout the book are little boxes of Latin words with translations beneath. These serve no purpose other than to make FATAL look scholarly. It doesn’t work.

And now we come to gender, which is also determined randomly if the GM… excuse me, Aedile chooses. And yes, there are tables that explain how gender affects ability scores. The math is drawn from… Aristotle, who apparently got everything right when he described me as stronger, more courageous, and less cunning, and women as more jealous, less hopeful, and more void of shame and self-respect. You can just feel the realism.

And then there’s a page about patriarchal culture, used as a cop-put to the sexism inherent in the system. A telling sentence is this: “It is unwise to deivate from cultural norms.”

And now we come to body. Much of this is covered in the rpg.net review, so I’ll include only some basic ridiculousness: You roll for age (and, if an elf, your lifespan). The modifiers and footnotes for extra weight and increased strength assume all gained or lost weight is muscle mass, not fat. Underweight women get Bodily Attractiveness bonuses. The modern upper class is thinner than the modern lower class because healthy food costs more. You have to roll a d1000000 to determine if your character is a freak of nature, and then roll a d100 to determine the deformity. The familiar 4d100/2-1 from the first version has apparently been changed to 10d100/5-1. He lists and details every damn disease he can think of. Under Tourette’s: “At the Aedile’s whim, an individual may be compelled to voice obscenities.”

We move on to abilities, and see that yes, the wacky roll has been changed. Wheee! That FCG comes up again, and again, we see that Hall never reflected on what the necessity of such a program says about his system.

After explaining each of the abilites, we come to the skill modifier tables. All 21 pages of them. It’s here that I learn, from the signature on one of the “illustrations,” that the artist’s name really is Steve MnMoorn. ‘Kay. (Said illustration, next to physical attractiveness, shows (surprise surprise) a naked woman with large breasts, small hips, and long legs.) There is a footnote to explain the term “Butterface,” insisting that the proper spelling is “but-her-face.” The “Reaction Speed” pic is funny, showing a man startled out of sleep grabbing his assailant’s wrist, causing a dagger to fall out of the assailant’s hand directly toward the man’s head.

Hall wanks over a textbook on the “Skill Modifiers for overall ability” with a long footnote detailing the equation he came up with for the table. Byron, we don’t care. The point of RPGs is not math.

The famous “Retard Strength” section is preserved, with a footnoted explanation: “Many retards have Down Syndrome, which is associated with a slower metabolism and a thicker build, which is likely to increase their strength.”

We end our short tour of FATAL at page 103, where Hall explains his optional ability re-roll system, which players can use if they’re not happy with the results. He admonishes against it, though, since it detracts from the realism. And you can only do it 4 times out of 20 sub-abilities.

The reference pages are included; anyone who wishes to see them can skip down to page 995. I’d be very interested as to how his sources measure up in the overall literature.

Perhaps most telling of all is the author photograph. What do you think?

Also, someone check Byron’s credentials.

After the long list of contributors (including a woman; did she know what she was helping with?), we get this final line, which sums it all up, “Most of all, I’d like to thank myself.”

The back jacket copy, all of which is completely true: “FATAL is a role-playing game like no other. The largest game-book ever printed, FATAL has over 150 occupations, 200 skills, and 500 spells. Fantasy gamers have never seen this degree of historical and mythological accuracy, nor detail and realism. Also included is a CDROM with a character generator program, the game in .pdf, and much more. This book contains everything you need to play FATAL. This game is explicit and for adults only. Be wary, play FATAL if you dare.”

Thoughts, gentlemen?

[Scorpion13]

Id like to respond, Michael, but Im terrified beyond the capacity for rational thought.


3 people, and possibly more gave this a good review.

[Michael P]

Reading those reviews, it's pretty easy to see why they liked the game: They're morons. They prefer to have every damn thing about the gaming world and their characters spelled out for them to using their imaginations. Which is the second, and ultimately more damning, flaw of FATAL: It takes all the fun out of creating and playing a character. "Do this. Your character has to be like this. Don't deviate in any way from my rules, even if they make the game less fun for you, because they detract from the realism."

It's a f***ing fantasy RPG, you twit. It's not supposed to be realistic.

[Chuckg]

My only thought is 'you read all 109 pages and you're still alive? and coherent enough to remember where the keyboard is?'

Dude, I gave up, gibbering, when I hit the illo of the naked dwarf. That was page 20-something, IIRC.

You are hardcore.

You're also quite probably dangerous and thoroughly mad, and I will now back away slowly and then turn to run away screaming. :)

[Michael P]

My only thought is 'you read all 109 pages and you're still alive? and coherent enough to remember where the keyboard is?'

Dude, I gave up, gibbering, when I hit the illo of the naked dwarf. That was page 20-something, IIRC.

You are hardcore.

You're also quite probably dangerous and thoroughly mad, and I will now back away slowly and then turn to run away screaming. :)
Honestly, by Chapter 2 I started skimming like a mofo.

[Metaphysician]

And the scary thing is, those 109 pages is the *preview*, not the actual work. There are full RPGs shorter than that.

[Chuckg]

Honestly, by Chapter 2 I started skimming like a mofo.

BTW, if you want help getting that... thing... off your hard drive, might I recommend a nice freeware 'secure overwrite' utility?

http://downloads-zdnet.com.com/Eraser/3000-2092_2-10231813.html

It's not quite as good as ritually burning your PC while chanting fell passages from the Necrowombicon (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=1999-07-28&res=l), but it's less expensive. :)

[Celisasu]

The worst part is, the RPG gets (http://www.gamewyrd.com/review/567) good (http://www.rpg-index.com/gamedetail.php?id=1418) reviews (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_5754.html), as in three of thr first four googled searches are positive reviews.


There is no God.

[AndyAnime]

This wouldn't be half as alarming if FATAL was actually some collossal joke, and the creators didn't actually take this game seriously.

Which they apparently do. :eek:

[JeffreyWKramer]

Michael, the fact that you read that crap even that closely is a testament to either your strength of will, or your insanity.

I can't get over some of the measurements. Why on earth should characters need to know foot length or head circumference?

Best reason I can come up with is to determine whether FATAL characters can put their own heads or feet up their asses.

And the idea of a game having a chart for areola size and hue...

[Dizzy D]

OK, so because I'm stupid, I clicked on that .pdf link.

Damn thing’s 109 pages. The mind boggles. Let's have some fun, shall we?

I will give them credit: On the cover, there is a "Parental Advisory: Explicit Content" label. Right next to the naked woman with a chain around her neck. Also, the game apparently comes with a free CD-ROM. I do NOT want to know what is on this CD-ROM.


I tried to read through your review, but my mind blanked out when you started on genital-size. (The word 'cube' comes to mind, a word I never connected to genitals before)

I'll just be in my corner singing Christmas songs and think of happy times.

[Traveler the 1st]

Once again,I think we should all suit up and go to war to destroy this thing before it can breed more.I'm not leading the charge though.I'm not crazy you guys.Well,okay,I am,crazy enough to yell obscenities at great Cthulhu,but i'm not crazy enough to go against this thing alone.I don't know.Maybe we should try and get Quantum 10 Divis Mal...?

[Crinos]

Once again,I think we should all suit up and go to war to destroy this thing before it can breed more.I'm not leading the charge though.I'm not crazy you guys.Well,okay,I am,crazy enough to yell obscenities at great Cthulhu,but i'm not crazy enough to go against this thing alone.I don't know.Maybe we should try and get Quantum 10 Divis Mal...?

I wouldnt worry about it breeding. FATAL and the people who play it are the reason Abortion clinics exist.

[Melchior]

I took a peak of those reviews. From what I can tell.....

Well, they throw out a vast amount of the book, and concentrate on play mechanics. The downside is that the thing seems to work best with a few programs doing your calculations for you (provided on the CD). The upside is that the numbers apparently make realistic sense, and it covers EVERYTHING. I would assume this means supplements are not needed. It also is apparently meant for experienced gamers who enjoy charts, and is not an entry-level-type game. Taken from that perspective, the positive scores almost make sense.

However....

*Gets in Jagd Mirage*

Time for too much firepower.

[Draconomicon]

Okey.... how can we bring about the end of the World again?
Cross the Streams?

Anyone have some proton packs lying around?

[Perry Holley]

http://www.herogames.com/5ERballistictest.wmv

This is not a small file - it runs about 6 minutes long, and takes almost a hour to download using dial-up.

Thjat said, this is something any HERO/Champions fan pretty much needs to see, or just any gamer interested in 'personal protection'...

[Crinos]

Frankly, I've always thought that rapists were lower than racists.

well rapists and FATAL players are more or less the same thing, so it balances out.

[Peter]

I tried to read through your review, but my mind blanked out when you started on genital-size. (The word 'cube' comes to mind, a word I never connected to genitals before)

I'll just be in my corner singing Christmas songs and think of happy times.

I know. I was just giggling up until that point. But when I hit that part of the review -- 5 inches long and 4 inches thick (!!!) -- I fell off my chair in hysterics.

Or maybe I'd finally succumbed to madness.

Whichever it was, Michael, I take my hat off to you.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Normally, I don't endorse book burning but with this I will make an exception. Get your torches and pitchforks people.

Yes. This heresy must be burned from existence, and all those involved subject to arco-flagellation, and Exterminatus declared on thier home towns.

It's the only way to be sure.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Dear lord this thing was published with good reviews? I think I just heard the Seventh Seal breaking. The end is nigh!

[Gaz]

I'd keepan eye on Michael for a while. He may have been possessed.
*shakes holy water towards Michael* The Power of Christ compels you!

[Donald M.]

And I finally get those randomly generated sexual features: My “manhood” is 5.35 inches long and 4.55 inches thick. Let’s stop and visualize that for a second.

The phrase, "Trying to stick a square peg in a round hole," comes to mind

[Crinos]

You actually read through this abortion of thought in order to warn us of the dangers of it. what Selflessness, what Altruism.

I think anybody who does what Micheal did should be eligible for Sainthood. Anyone who disagrees is a communist. :D

[Metaphysician]

Then what of Sartin and Maclerran, who read through the *entire* 900+ page text??

[Rabid Trekkie]

Then what of Sartin and Maclerran, who read through the *entire* 900+ page text??

Truly gods among men. I guess that makes Michael a demigod, like Hercules or something.

[Scorpion13]

I was just thinking about it, and I just gotta read that review those guys did on FATAL. Could somebody hook me up with a link for that?

[Metaphysician]

FATAL Review (http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/fatal.html)

[lonewolf23k]

Check out this latest bit of stupid news:NJ Man to Face Triple-Murder Charges in Montco (http://www.kyw1060.com/news_archives_detail.cfm?newsitemid=44981)

Quote the DA: "I mean, you have many, many stab wounds and those 'Dungeons and Dragons' fantasy games involve swords and knives and daggers and things of that nature. There may be a connection but I can’t say for sure.”


Gods, someone needs to mail that man a copy of "Dungeons and Dragons for Dummies", very, very badly.

[mgs]

un-freakin-believeable! :rolleyes: (rolleyes to the story, not you, lonewolf. ;) )

tho it would be interesting if the 'connection' was that they were all gamers in the same group.

[Draconomicon]

Check out this latest bit of stupid news:NJ Man to Face Triple-Murder Charges in Montco (http://www.kyw1060.com/news_archives_detail.cfm?newsitemid=44981)

Quote the DA: "I mean, you have many, many stab wounds and those 'Dungeons and Dragons' fantasy games involve swords and knives and daggers and things of that nature. There may be a connection but I can’t say for sure.”


Gods, someone needs to mail that man a copy of "Dungeons and Dragons for Dummies", very, very badly.

Is that guy dumb?
Seriously, did he get a kick to the head from a horse or something?
"There are daggers, swords and knives in DnD".

No shit sherlock, so are in ginzu commercials, knives you find in next to every TV show...

Honestly, is. that. guy. dumb?
How can someone like that get an job like that?
Inbreeding? His father/uncle is a big guy?

[saintjon]

Pff whatever, I saw on A and E once this dumb broad was trying to say FF7 was an influence onthese kids who were later cleared 100% by DNA evidence, since you "plan to beat enemies" or some bull****. Seriously, play the damn game for 10 minutes. it's a linear story line, at no point do you plan s*** in an ff game. Secondly, if anything ff7 would make an eco-terrorist out of you, not a murderer lol :D

and then you get the guys trotting out anime as a catch-all piece of kiddy porn evidence.

[Donald M.]

it's a linear story line, at no point do you plan s*** in an ff game.

Okay, that's the funniest thing I've read all day.

[saintjon]

I meant in the context of what your guys are actually going to do story-wise man. Okay tell me at what point in ff 6 could you decide to put off the emperor for a bit, maybe we should take out this kefka guy cuz he's more dangerous.

or ff7, Gee guys I'm pretty sure that since Sephiroth has had a one-up on us from the getgo maybe we should pursue other avenues here for a bit, I have a feeling we're being used.

[Perry Holley]

FAQ part 2 (http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/wordpress/?p=13)

part 3 (http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/wordpress/?p=19)

[Perry Holley]

FAQ part 4 (http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/wordpress/?p=23)

Honestly, the more I see of the changes, the more I like... but then, I was never that enamoured with the actual rules, playing the game in *spite* of the rule system, not because of it.

[Paladin]

I used to play a game produced by TSR at the start of their big campaign to make D20 games the end-all be-all, it was a far future game that I loved, unfortunately I never owned the books, my GM did. I can't remember the name of it so any search for the books is kind of useless, as is searching for files, anyone know the name of the sci fi game TSR made with the Mechalus race?

[Pendaran]

Alternity.

[Paladin]

Thanks, those games where damn fun, if a bit complex, I'm actually thinking of getting files containing the rules and reworking them a bit.

[Perry Holley]

A number of free downloads and resources for Alternity can be found here (http://alternityrpg.net/).

[MatthewC]

Okay, I'm trying to put together a one-shot to introduce my gaming group to the new World of Darkness rules system. Going to use only the core rulebook, so no Vampires or Werewolves or like that. (Or rather, I certainly could use those things, but it would purely be as monsters, not limiting myself by anything out of their game books.)

I've decided to go with a classic set-up. Four guys are out deer hunting in the woods, and spooky stuff starts to happen. The goal is to have all this play out in two or three hours of real time, so I don't want to make it too complex. Beyond that, I'm not sure exactly what to have happen.

So any ideas for a fun, short, spooky hunting horror scenario?

[Shellhead]

For it to be horrifying, the threat will need to be bullet-proof or otherwise not easily brought down by a hail of gunfire. Otherwise, you will find yourself running an action adventure, not a horror adventure.

Look for ways to slowly build up the horror while giving little hints that might help them survive later. Weird tracks would be very appropriate for your hunters to find. Maybe odd animal behavior... like a bear that is apparently on a rampage but is actually fleeing the true threat. Have them encounter another group of hunters who pass on some disturbing rumors that they heard in the nearest town, or maybe some sort of ranger types. Or a dead animal that's been killed in a strange manner. An abandoned cabin that contains a disturbing diary.

[Dizzy D]

Speaking from CoC experience:
Weird tracks always work well (especially if you make them misleading; lots of tracks that seem to indicate many small animals being one big monster with many legs or vice versa. Let them look at the ground when the thing uses tunnels, flies or moves through the top of trees.)

Bulet-proofness can be done in several ways: either too big, too tough, too small, too fast, regenerates or too many. All of them can be used to great effect. Keep in mind, the unseen thread is the greatest: let your player's imagination do the work for you. Allow the players small victories in fighting the thing off, then turn the tables on them: bringing down the big beast, brings out its pack of children, its mate or the man controlling the thing.

If you find an animal slaughtered make it something that shouldn't be killed easily: a bear, a cougar, many many small animals or the worst: an armed hunter.

Further thoughts later.

[Shellhead]

Another example of a cool clue... unfortunately based on a real world slaughter:

Some hunters in western Wisconsin got in a confrontation with another hunter who was trespassing on their land and using their treehouse-type platform without permission. They rode over on four-wheelers to confront him, bringing their rifles. Apparently Wisconsin hunters are required to prominently display their hunting license number on their vests, and during the confrontation, one of the hunters wrote the trespasser's license number into the dust on his four-wheeler. After the trespasser (a hmong vet from the war in Vietnam) shot and killed most of them, the police eventually captured him and matched up that license number.

[MatthewC]

I guess I've got several goals here.

1. I want to make things creepy, but I want to start it off at a low enough level that they just don't turn around, get in their SUV, and pull out their cell phones to call the cops. Possibly near the climax their phones might stop working and their vehicle should be sabotaged, but I think the longer we go without such measures, the better. If that kind of thing happens near the beginning of the game, then it becomes an exercise in them trying to leave. Save it until things go to hell all of a sudden, I'm thinking.

2. I actually don't mind them having at least one gun battle they can win. maybe a possessed animal that seems to be attacking recklessly.

3. Similarly, I'd like them to have at least one fist fight, so they can see the other side of the combat system. I'm thinking the best way to do this might just be to have a human being attacking them who is not using a deadly weapon, so they'll feel somewhat hesitant to, you know, shoot him.

4. Really, the most important thing is to have a lot of different kind of rolls required, to give them a feel for the system. There doesn't actually have to be a big monster lurking in the woods. Maybe a malevolent ghost, though....

[Perry Holley]

maybe a possessed animal that seems to be attacking recklessly.Possession is always fun. Maybe a malevolent spirit that possesses one of the PCs when they're asleep? Part of the horror could be to wake up and realize you have blood on your hands... it could get especially tricky if the spirit can jump back and forth between host bodies. Obviously, part of the trick here, once they realize what's going on, is to figure out how to capture/destroy the spirit.

[BlairH]

1. A crazy hunter that attacks the party. Is he insane? posessed? or has he merely confused you with the REAL THREAT?
2. A 3PM hunt turns into a midnight stalk in the space of 30 mins (time anomalies)
3. Hallucinations (a deer is shot, but when the party advances the corpse is nowhere to be found)
4. Electronic communication doesn't work. No cellular phones, no pager, no radio, no GPS, nothing.

[MatthewC]

1. A crazy hunter that attacks the party. Is he insane? posessed? or has he merely confused you with the REAL THREAT?
2. A 3PM hunt turns into a midnight stalk in the space of 30 mins (time anomalies)
3. Hallucinations (a deer is shot, but when the party advances the corpse is nowhere to be found)
4. Electronic communication doesn't work. No cellular phones, no pager, no radio, no GPS, nothing.

Ooooh, I like the time anomalies and the hallucinations. Good stuff. I definitely want to have a crazed someone attack them, but I'm not sure how to play it.

[Sanagi]

Zombie squirrels!

[Perry Holley]

Zombie squirrels!Well, sure, you can always go for the classics...

[Royal]

Skinwalkers.

Is your forrest near a lake? You can try Will O'Wisps if it is.

[Perry Holley]

Skinwalkers.Ooh, good choice.

[MatthewC]

Hey guys, we played out the hunting horror scenario Sunday, and I wanted to let you know how it went. I made up most of it as I went along, taking your suggestions into account.

The players made three PCs who were going on a deer hunting trip. As they were driving in Friday afternoon, a red truck passed them going in the other direction at insane speeds.

When they got to the gate to the state park, the park ranger signed them in. One of the PCs noted the park ranger seemed zoned out, like he was on drugs.

When they walked out to the camp-site, they were surprised to find that what should have taken them about 45 minutes had actually taken them two hours... though it didn't seem that long. (I never went anywhere with this, but I thought it added to the creepiness.)

At the campsite, the PCs found a backpack that had apparently been left behind by some bird watcher. They also found a deer carcass, butchered and hung up from a tree a few hundred feet away. It had apparently been left to rot.

That evening, a storm started brewing, putting an early end to their beer drinking around the campfire. While they were in their tent, a bear wandered into their camp. Then it was apparently attacked by a dog, which was very agressive, then suddenly turned very timid and fled. The bear walked off through their camp, pausing near their tent before leaving. (It was somewhat creepier, because they could see barely anything in the dark. Just heard some noises and had to interpret.)

The next day they walked out to find half of the deer carcass had been torn off. An old hunter with a dog popped out to tell them that he had set up the carcass as bait for a rabid dog of his (other than the one with him) he was trying to shoot. The PCs managed to make friends with him after some good social rolls, and he came back to the camp to drink some beers with them. While there, they asked him about the backpack, and he admitted that he remembered an elderly couple that tended to show up every year as birdwatchers, and that the backpack might have belonged to one of them.

The hunter decided to walk with the PCs for a while on their hunting trip, when they heard the sounds of a four wheeler driven along one of the trails that the park ranger used to get around. They follow it to find the ranger looking at an old woman who had apparently hung herself from a tree. It's one of the bird watchers, and she's been dead for a while.

The ranger is incredibly shaken. The PCs awesomely succeed in a roll to calm him down, and he babbles out an insane-sounding story. Acording to him, the local animals had been acting strangely for a while, coming out of the woods and 'looking at him'. Finally, the 'rabid dog' the hunter had been after had tried to attack him. He locked himself up in his ranger station to keep it out, but something 'inside the dog' had been trying to 'get inside his head'. he started dosing himself with drugs because that seemed to keep it from getting into him. That day, the male of the bird watchers (who drove a red truck, natch) had called him crying and told him about leaving his wife out in the woods, after some thing had seemed after them. Naturally, even the players are wondering if this guy is insane. It all sounds psychotic.

Then they hear a growl behind them. The bear lumbers out of the woods and attacks them. They have to make opposed rolls against a supernatural fear effect, which thanks to my sucky roll they easily do. I pause at this point to look up bear stats, only to realize that they aren't listed, so I make something up on the spot. (Curse you, WW!) The bear attacks the park ranger first, allowing them to get some rifle shots off before it attacks them.

One of the PCs get a bit mauled, but they kill the bear easily enough with rifle shots, especially once I remind them they can use willpower on their combat rolls. Then the old hunter screams that it's inside his head and starts to point his rifle at them, struggling all the way.

We're a bit pressed for time at this point, so after they tackle the hunter and take away his rifle, I have the dog that accompanied the hunter suddenly howl. The dog gives them a look they can only interpret as a grin, then lopes off into the woods. End session.

Overall. They seemed to enjoy it, and it gave a pretty good exposure to the system and the mood of thew WoD. Possibly not as many player choices to make as I would have liked, but we were a bit presed for game time at the end. I think it worked out okay. Thanks for all your suggestions.

PS. One of the players told me that he really liked that they never _saw_ any kind of monster. It was all strangely-acting animals and people and something horrifying that seemed to be controlling them.

[Melchior]

Reminds me a bit of a Dean Koontz novel I read once, except you skipped the reveal and monster defeat at the end. Sounds great.

*Evil Thought*
Have the dog cameo in one of your later sessions.

[lade]

what are the powers and abilities of Mystic OCC and Guardian OCC?

[Perry Holley]

When I get home from work this afternoon, I'll dig out my books.

Was there any specific info you were looking for in particular?

[lade]

the powers they have basicly and how they fare against nightlords and a few sword bearer artifacts and info on darkblades and maybe one Npc on a nightlord ,I've read about them on the net but don't know what they can do.

[Perry Holley]

the powers they have basicly and how they fare against nightlords and a few sword bearer artifacts and info on darkblades and maybe one Npc on a nightlord ,I've read about them on the net but don't know what they can do.Well, that's a helluva lot of typing you're asking for, so let's see if I can run over the basics first:

Mystic

Psychic Powers - Considered as a major psychic (ISP 1d4x10 + character's ME, gains 1d6+1 ISP per additional level), starts off with clairvoyance, exorcism sense evil and sixth sense, as well as 3 additional abilites form the Psychic Sensitive category, and 2 fromt he Healer category. Gains an additional power from either of those categories at levels 3, 5, 7, & 10.

Spells Gained intuitively, stats off with 6 spells, either 1st or 2nd level. And 2nd level, gains 3 spells of levels 1-3. 3rd level, gains 3 spells, levels 1-4. at 4th level and higher, gains 2 new spells up to corresponding character level (all gained intuitively).

PPE - 1d4x10 + PE, gains 1d6+1 PPE per additional level.

Bonuses - +1 save vs psychic attacks, +3 vs horror factor, +1 to save vs magic at 3rd, 6th, 9th, and 12th level, and +1 to spell strength at 4th, 8th, and 12th level.

More to come later... have to get offline for the moment.

[lade]

thanks it's appreciated, this would help my campiagn greatly , I need stats on the guardians and darkblades so that i can incorporate it into my campiagn.

[lade]

Amber,rifts, dnd, aberrant, exalted, WOD among others which system allows for the most powerful weapons and abilites?

[Perry Holley]

Well, in Star wars they have the Death Star... :)

[Scorpion13]

I thought Silver Age Sentinels was pretty powerful. Rank 10 Dynamic Powers anything and youre smacking teams around.

[Jagatai_Khan]

That new hardcover RPG that's out... the non-d20, non-WhiteWolf one. (!)

It's white, with a picture of a Dragon-ish thing on the cover, and "Fireborn" in big stylized letters. It's all about magic and dragons awakening in the modern world... and it's set in modern day London after all the mythic stuff comes back.

Anybody played it? Is it any good? I'm impressed just because it's not one of the big-two RPG companies, and it doesn't use the system for either company either. However, novelty does not quality make.

Anybody got any observations about this game?

[Perry Holley]

Haven't seen it (I've had to cut back significantly on my RPG purchases recently). Do you own a copy, and if so, what unique and interesting features does it have?

[Jagatai_Khan]

No, I dont own it. That's 30 bucks more than I've got right now.

I scanned through it in the store, and it looked pretty cool. You make two characters, one modern and one ancient dragon, and you roleplay both modern sequences and also "flashback" sequences about the ancient past, which actually have an effect on your modern self and can give you bonuses or penalties as you "remember" more about yourself.

[Perry Holley]

FAQ part 5 (magic) (http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/wordpress/?p=27)

[Perry Holley]

SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) - A 21-year-old man and his parents were killed after the man agreed to be murdered along with his family if he lost a murder-mystery role-playing game, local media reported Saturday.

Three People Killed Over Role-Playing Game in Southeastern Brazil (http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBM8X1CQ8E.html)

[Ender]

That is one of the most disturbing things I've ever read.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Yes, disturbing. However, this isn't the first time something like this has happened. THese people were disturbed. That doesn't mean everybody that roleplays is disturbed.

Anymore than the Heaven's Gate suicides or the Branch Davidians mean that all religious people are disturbed. Or anymore than English Soccer Hooligans meaning that all sports fans are violent drunken brawlers.

[Sheldon]

Yes, disturbing. However, this isn't the first time something like this has happened. THese people were disturbed. That doesn't mean everybody that roleplays is disturbed.

Anymore than the Heaven's Gate suicides or the Branch Davidians mean that all religious people are disturbed. Or anymore than English Soccer Hooligans meaning that all sports fans are violent drunken brawlers.

I don't believe you man....this story is conclusive evidence that RPGers are all gonna go kill each other.....

I hope no one reading this thread would actually make that conclusion.

[Paladin]

Find out what Cammie Clan you are! http://www.space.net.au/~dpwyrm/interactive/camarilla/camarilla.html


Me: You are a...


Brujah 68 %
Your violent and anti-establishment nature marks you out as a Brujah. This clan is often seen as nothing more than a psychotic rabble by other Kindred, but underneath their short tempers and rebelious actions often lie strongly held beliefs and ideology. Just don't get them mad.

[Draconomicon]

You are sort of a...


Tremere 46 %
Your scholarly and inquisitive (yet sneaky and treacherous) nature marks you out as a Tremere. This clan was originally a group of human sorcerers who wrested the secrets of 'immortal life' from unwilling Kindred. Their magical powers make them both powerful allies and deadly foes, and many Kindred would like to see them eliminated completely.

-----

Excellent. Everything goes according my plans :) http://www.cosgan.de/images/kao/boese/k025.gif

[LordKaos]

You are sort of a...


Nosferatu 39 %
Your dark outlook and dislike of society marks you out as a Nosferatu. Hideously deformed by the Embrace these Kindred hide in sewers and catacombs, away from humans and other vampires alike. They are eavesdropers and sneaks extraordinaire, and always know exactly what is going on.

[Dizzy D]

You are sort of a...


Tremere 46 %
Your scholarly and inquisitive (yet sneaky and treacherous) nature marks you out as a Tremere. This clan was originally a group of human sorcerers who wrested the secrets of 'immortal life' from unwilling Kindred. Their magical powers make them both powerful allies and deadly foes, and many Kindred would like to see them eliminated completely.

-----

Excellent. Everything goes according my plans :) http://www.cosgan.de/images/kao/boese/k025.gif

Tremere 50%

ha!

[Draconomicon]

Tremere 50%

ha!
Bah!
Only because I considered Loyality greater than knowledge!
I like to NOT have my servants try to take me out :p

[The Dog]

You are sort of a...

Brujah - 46%

Your violent and anti-establishment nature marks you out as a Brujah. This clan is often seen as nothing more than a psychotic rabble by other Kindred, but underneath their short tempers and rebelious actions often lie strongly held beliefs and ideology. Just don't get them mad.

[LordKaos]

Tremere 50%

ha!

I want to be a Tremere

[Paladin]

Lets go wreck some stuff up dog!

[The Dog]

Lets go wreck some stuff up dog!

I'm to anti-establishment, and with there being two of us, that sounds like we're establishing something.

Besides, if we went and wrecked stuff, there'd be two of us, and I'm a violent loner.

[Spider69]

You are sort of a...


Toreador 39 %
Your love of society and the finer things in life mark you out as a Toreador. This clan sees existance as something to be savoured, and live their unlives with flair, elegance and passion. Lovers of art and beauty they are at the center of whatever social scene they choose to grace.



Cool, i guess.......

[Spider69]

I'm to anti-establishment, and with there being two of us, that sounds like we're establishing something.

Besides, if we went and wrecked stuff, there'd be two of us, and I'm a violent loner.
Yeah right!, when you first started your story on SO, you made up lisa, now you got me, her, scott, and your succubs girlfreind, lillith.

[Paladin]

I'm to anti-establishment, and with there being two of us, that sounds like we're establishing something.

Besides, if we went and wrecked stuff, there'd be two of us, and I'm a violent loner.

See, it isn't an establishment if we don't have rules and a hierarchy, now let's go kick some nun-puppy hybrids or something, all the toreadors and tremeres here are making me antsy!

[Spider69]

See, it isn't an establishment if we don't have rules and a hierarchy, now let's go kick some nun-puppy hybrids or something, all the toreadors and tremeres here are making me antsy!
Hey, hey, hey, hey , hey, hey...i'am a toreador!

[The Dog]

Yeah right!, when you first started your story on SO, you made up lisa, now you got me, her, scott, and your succubs girlfreind, lillith.

But that's on SO. This isn't SO. BIIIIIG difference. Here I'm violent loner vampire, not overly-friendly, overly-heroic SO Knight.

[The Dog]

See, it isn't an establishment if we don't have rules and a hierarchy, now let's go kick some nun-puppy hybrids or something, all the toreadors and tremeres here are making me antsy!

Why didn't you say kick Nun-Puppy hybrids?

*Begins randomly kicking nun-puppies and small overly cute orphans*

[Draconomicon]

See, it isn't an establishment if we don't have rules and a hierarchy, now let's go kick some nun-puppy hybrids or something, all the toreadors and tremeres here are making me antsy!
Why that?
Don't like the family secrets of yours we recently found in an old library? *shows toothy grin*

[Radical]

You are sort of a...

* Gangrel * 32 *%
Your loner tendancies, and preference for the natural world mark you out as Grangrel. These nomadic shapeshifters avoid the cities and prowl the wilderness, how they avoid the wrath of the Lupines remains unknown.

[Spider69]

Why didn't you say kick Nun-Puppy hybrids?

*Begins randomly kicking nun-puppies and small overly cute orphans*
uh, that's so mean.......i like iiiiiiiiit :D :p .

[GozertheGozarian]

You are sort of a...


Gangrel 32 %
Your loner tendancies, and preference for the natural world mark you out as Grangrel. These nomadic shapeshifters avoid the cities and prowl the wilderness, how they avoid the wrath of the Lupines remains unknown.

Dammit, I hate dogs.

[heretic]

Find out what Cammie Clan you are! http://www.space.net.au/~dpwyrm/interactive/camarilla/camarilla.html

Your scholarly and inquisitive (yet sneaky and treacherous) nature marks you out as a Tremere. This clan was originally a group of human sorcerers who wrested the secrets of 'immortal life' from unwilling Kindred. Their magical powers make them both powerful allies and deadly foes, and many Kindred would like to see them eliminated completely.

Scholarly type. that about fits.

HTG

[saintjon]

I got tremere also, although a lot of them really had no answers that suited me. Maybe I'm a Sabat :evilsmile

[Perry Holley]

You are sort of a...

Gangrel 36 %

Your loner tendancies, and preference for the natural world mark you out as Grangrel. These nomadic shapeshifters avoid the cities and prowl the wilderness, how they avoid the wrath of the Lupines remains unknown.

[mdf2]

For all the gamers out there...

Of all the 1st edition AD&D modules you may have owned, played, or perhaps even read through, what or who is the nastiest final encounter you've ever seen? A final villain or situation created by the villain that made you sweat bullets?

I have a few suggestions, in no particular order:

The final two encounters of the Judges Guild adventure, 'Dark Tower'. This dungeon's old-school and hardcore. Huge, a lot of nasty, EVIL traps...and, after you've fought your way through it...

First, you fight a Greater Son Of Set -- this frickin' BEAST has 100 HP, an AC of -2, 60% magic resistance, needs +2 or better weapons to be hit, and regenerates 3 HP per round. A monster in all senses of the word.

He does HUGE damage: 3-36 constriction damage, two claws for 4-24, two bites for 3-24, and has 9th level (clerical) spell use.

(And for how it looks? Picture a giant man's torso with the body of a snake from the waist down, four arms, and two dragon heads with insect eyes).

This is the appetizer. Assuming you managed to kill his demonic ass, you then have to face his master -- a 21st level cleric lich, with all the fun stuff that comes with being a self-made undead monster.

THEN -- you have to run because in true, old-school fashion, the dungeon starts coming down on your head!

2) Count Strahd from the original Ravenloft -- the module that spawned a setting. Not only was the villain cool, tricky, and tough to beat, but the module had atmosphere in spades, and possibly one of the coolest damn maps ever made.

3) And last, but certainly not least, the demi-lich Acererak from Tomb of Horrors -- as I understand, the first official module ever published.

The grandaddy, and one of the toughest encounters of all time.

As far as situations that freaked you out go, the most memorable one for me was In The Dungeons Of The Slave Lords, the conclusion of the classic Slave Lords series, where you wake up in captivity.

You found out very quickly, that stripped of things like oh, armour and weapons, encounters you used to laugh at because of your level and stats ceased being amusing -- VERY quickly.

The picture of the violet fungus in that book STILL creeps me out to this day.

[Donald Stone]

I've can say I've played the original Tomb of Horrors once*, but can't say I survived it.



*a GM we had ran it to show us youngings what D&D used to be like.

[mdf2]

Very few can survive S1. (And no, I'm not one of them either.)

From the article in Dungeon Magazine 118, with their picks for the 30 Greatest D&D Adventures of All Time, Tomb of Horrors came in at #3 -- just behind Ravenloft, funnily enough.

Bill Slavicsek, one of the panel, had this to say: 'One player killed his character at the altar trap, then tried again with his next character (same result) and his next character (same result) before the rest of the party convinced him to stop touching the altar.'

And the last two comments sum it up quite well:

'The module was not constructed to be conquered, but merely survived.'
'Anyone who claims they made it through without losing a single PC from the party is a liar, a cheater, or both.'

For your sake, I hope you weren't attached to your character.

You could never run that module with newbies and people who'd played it before -- the temptation to try to warn people would be almost too great.

But you could still have fun with it.

I can see the newbies looking at the old hand, and wondering 'Why is the cleric administering last rites?'

[fuaak]

I like the way they used to list detailed stats and drops for every single civilian, peasant and fisherman in those old modules, like it was a given that the players would go out of their way to slaughter them all.

As far as bad mofos go, my vote goes to the thing you fight at the end of The Rod of Seven Parts.

[Shem the Penman]

The S series of modules was fairly murderous, IIRC, although of course none of 'em ever stacked up to the sheer arbitrary lethality of Tomb of Horrors. Demi-liches may be the single most unfair antagonist ever created for AD&D.

And although he never appeared in a module that I know of, he deserves a mention on the list of 1st Edition badasses: the tarrasque.

[Perry Holley]

mdf2, you pretty much read my mind when you listed Dark Tower and Ravenloft. Those are both truly excellent adventures (although I generally preferred the lower to mid-level adventures, such as the outstanding 'Saltmarsh' trilogy).

OTOH, I despise Tomb Of Horrors with an intensity that beggars description. Even back in the day, I thought it was Gygax at his worst ("Ooh, look at all the different ways I can kill off your characters, aren't I so clever?" Gah!), and time hasn't improved it any for me.

[Shellhead]

For all the gamers out there...

Of all the 1st edition AD&D modules you may have owned, played, or perhaps even read through, what or who is the nastiest final encounter you've ever seen? A final villain or situation created by the villain that made you sweat bullets?

I have a few suggestions, in no particular order:

The final two encounters of the Judges Guild adventure, 'Dark Tower'. This dungeon's old-school and hardcore. Huge, a lot of nasty, EVIL traps...and, after you've fought your way through it...

First, you fight a Greater Son Of Set -- this frickin' BEAST has 100 HP, an AC of -2, 60% magic resistance, needs +2 or better weapons to be hit, and regenerates 3 HP per round. A monster in all senses of the word.

He does HUGE damage: 3-36 constriction damage, two claws for 4-24, two bites for 3-24, and has 9th level (clerical) spell use.

(And for how it looks? Picture a giant man's torso with the body of a snake from the waist down, four arms, and two dragon heads with insect eyes).

This is the appetizer. Assuming you managed to kill his demonic ass, you then have to face his master -- a 21st level cleric lich, with all the fun stuff that comes with being a self-made undead monster.

THEN -- you have to run because in true, old-school fashion, the dungeon starts coming down on your head!

2) Count Strahd from the original Ravenloft -- the module that spawned a setting. Not only was the villain cool, tricky, and tough to beat, but the module had atmosphere in spades, and possibly one of the coolest damn maps ever made.

3) And last, but certainly not least, the demi-lich Acererak from Tomb of Horrors -- as I understand, the first official module ever published.

The grandaddy, and one of the toughest encounters of all time.

As far as situations that freaked you out go, the most memorable one for me was In The Dungeons Of The Slave Lords, the conclusion of the classic Slave Lords series, where you wake up in captivity.

You found out very quickly, that stripped of things like oh, armour and weapons, encounters you used to laugh at because of your level and stats ceased being amusing -- VERY quickly.

The picture of the violet fungus in that book STILL creeps me out to this day.

I have all three of these adventures, and the demi-lich was definitely one that my players never beat.

There were a few other tough ones... that modified iron golem from Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure was brutal, actually much harder than the demon in the final room. That was probably the toughest encounter that my players defeated.

Zuggtmoy, from Temple of Elemental Evil (T1-T4) was pretty harsh, much moreso than demoness Lolth from the Queen of the DemonWeb Pits (Q1).

I think the Froghemoth from Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (S3) gave my players some serious trouble... did it swallow somebody? Too many years have gone by.

[Chuckg]

Folks, nothing -- *nothing*, not even the Tomb -- can top H4, "Throne of Bloodstone"

OK, let me list some opposition:

*30th level lich-king, complete with totally fortified castle and undead minions galore

* great wyrm white dragon

* summoned and bound type VI demon

* castle defense system of doom that can see miles in every direction and will spot you coming unless you hug the ground and hide in ravines and, basically, keep the terrain between you and the castle at all times. oh, and you don't know about this thing ahead of time.

* and the castle is in the middle of a freaking glacier

Oh, the punchline?

This is not the final encounter of the module.

This isn't even the main part of the module.

The takedown of the lich-king Zhengyi is the *OPENING VIGNETTE* of the module.

After you finish this, presuming you survive, you then get to do the HARD stuff.

Which is go through the planar gate in the bottom of the lich-king's castle, find your way across the entire freakin' Abyss (with no map or directions), locate one specific layer (with no map or directions), jam your way across that layer, and enter the palace of Orcus.

While Orcus is home.

To steal the Wand.

*WHILE. ORCUS. IS. HOME.*

It is the one and only AD&D official module ever that I have seen stat encounters for a 100th-level party.

[Shellhead]

Chuck,

I kid you not, I was actually looking at H4 just last week, for the first time in over a decade. It's still sitting on my coffee table. I bought it back in the day, but when I saw how high-powered it was, I knew that my campaign was never going to last long enough for my players to get there.

The ideas about how to cope with 100th level characters were interesting. I don't remember all the details, but the basic gist was that 100th level characters are not five times more powerful than 20th level characters. Hit dice max out far below 10th level. Spells max out. Certain character classes, at least in 1st edition, had maximum levels, like druids and monks. Saving throws and to-hit rolls had a practical ceiling.

Then there were the nasty ideas for how to challenge such a party, including basic stuff like sending them to outer planes so all their magic weapons and armor would drop a couple of pluses. Magic resistance. Waves of goons to cause spell-casters to waste some spells. It didn't sound as insane as I expected, although it still sounded like too much hassle to DM.

[Metaphysician]

And once you kill Orcus and steal his wand, don't you *then* have to haul ass over to Baator, bust your way in to Tiamat's home, kill her, and douse it in her blood to destroy it??

[Chuckg]

Yes, yes you do.

[Royal]

One of one of my nitche habits is collecting all kinds & forms of dice. A friend of mine has given me a pyrimid die with three digits on each side. Now, I understand the d20 & the precentile die, but what does this die do?

[Shem the Penman]

One of one of my nitche habits is collecting all kinds & forms of dice. A friend of mine has given me a pyrimid die with three digits on each side. Now, I understand the d20 & the precentile die, but what does this die do?

Sounds like your generic d4. You roll (well, flip) it and the number that comes up on the base edge is the number you get.

[Sanagi]

Yup, four-sided die. Since no side ever lands facing up(except in miraculous circumstances), the bottom side is the result of the roll. And since you can't see the bottom side without picking the die up, which would invite cheating, D4s have the numbers along the edges to label the side beneath.

There are alternate designs. One is to have the numbers around the corners so that the corner that points up gives the result. Another is to use a cube with two of the sides rounded so that the die can't land on them.

[Perry Holley]

Also, you can use them as caltrops for any gamers foolish enough to walk around on game night with their shoes off.

[Puffy Treat]

Okay...way back in KotDT #6, the Knights did an "Intervention" for Brian.

I don't think that'll be enough, this time.

Jolly R. Blackburn confirmed on the KenzerCo boards that Brian wasn't merely pretending...and that yes, this was meant to be creepy instead of funny.

I'm not sure how I feel about KotDT getting so...dark.

Seriously, Brian needs help. He's losing all connection with reality when not at the game table.

[K'Nort]

Definitely creepy.

Jolly addressed that on the printed letters page too, and then kicked it up.

It wouldn't have been quite so dark if he was using another imaginary name.

The fact he stuck to his rehearsed script even when the players' actions didn't really fit was a bad sign too.

[Royal]

Tanks Guyz!

[Perry Holley]

Creepy, yet nonetheless entertaining. I can't wait to see how this turns out.

I'm also curious as to if we'll see any more of the call girl gamer.

[Valmore]

Poor Brian. Remember a few issues back when they were talking about Christmas plans? Sara offers to let Brian travel with her and some of the Felton family, and he declines by making up a story that his uncle is going to sweep in a take him off somewhere. Of course, he spends Christmas in his chair with a big bowl of popcorn, a bottle of X-Treme Caffine and the James Bond marathon on the telly.

Brian is a sad, sad character. He's only capable in the world of playing at the table as either a GM or player. His real life is spent making a fantasy world for himself. :(

[K'Nort]

The trouble is, it's harder to feel sorry for him when he starts to seem psycho rather than just sad.

[Valmore]

The trouble is, it's harder to feel sorry for him when he starts to seem psycho rather than just sad.

My guess is he lived a pretty sheltered life even before his parents died in that accident. He might not really know how to socialize outside the context of gaming. He wants to, but he's too afraid.

[Rockay]

I was wondering has anyone tried making any comic rpg's based on a online forum at all?

My friend and I were throwing some ideas around but where wondering if this already exists out there or not? Would people be interested in something like this?

[Xero Kaiser]

what, like city of heroes?

[Puffy Treat]

The thing is...Jolly himself said that Brian isn't pretending...he really believed that "Lexxy" called him.

If that's true, then Brian is more than just lonely and scared. He's mentally ill and emotionally disturbed.

Heck, we know from references in past strips that he's been on any number of medications in previous years, and that he literally believes he was abducted by aliens once.

If one reads the "Online Prelude" strips to issue #103 over at the website (http://www.kenzerco.com), we find out that Brian spent the college years of his life with almost no money (his uncle kept a tight hold on the trust fund) and no social life outside of in-depth Hackmaster sessions 6 nights a week.

It's possible he threw himself into fantasy gaming to avoid dealing with his parent's death...as well as use it as the only social/creative outlet he really had.

This takes all the implications of the tearful breakdown he had after the first "Lexxy" period as well as the hints of "The Incident" that lead to him give up GMing to paint a disturbing picture.

I'd suggest he give up gaming for a while to connect with more "real life" things if not for the thought the Knights just may be the only thing keeping him from completely losing it.

[Rockay]

More like based on a Forum where you select your characters and post roleplays. Perhaps using the Marvel RPG books or stats.

Similar to if you have seen some online Star Wars RPG's where you design a character, roleplay on a forum and the DM's put scenarios up for their characters.

[Perry Holley]

More like based on a Forum where you select your characters and post roleplays. Perhaps using the Marvel RPG books or stats.

Similar to if you have seen some online Star Wars RPG's where you design a character, roleplay on a forum and the DM's put scenarios up for their characters.You mean something like this (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=27641)?

[yeoman]

Also on Rumbles we had the half RP/half collaborative story telling "You vs." threads. Some of these did involve existing universes.

But htose didn't really use stats.

[UncleBob]

Also on Rumbles we had the half RP/half collaborative story telling "You vs." threads. Some of these did involve existing universes.

But htose didn't really use stats.

It mainly consists of the adventures of Cap'n Yeo and the unending rage of Munchie...

[nHammer]

I was wondering has anyone tried making any comic rpg's based on a online forum at all?

My friend and I were throwing some ideas around but where wondering if this already exists out there or not? Would people be interested in something like this?
I believe you are refering to a Play-by-Post game. Yes, they're out there.

[Saint_007]

Dude, we have a ton of these over on the Rumbles Board! Why not come and check for yourself?

[Perry Holley]

Dude, we have a ton of these over on the Rumbles Board! Why not come and check for yourself?

As opposed to here on the Games board, where such a thing would actually be on-topic...

[MatthewC]

The thing is...Jolly himself said that Brian isn't pretending...he really believed that "Lexxy" called him.

I read the message boards too, and I don't think Jolly said exactly that. What he said was that this was consistent with Brian's past actions and consistent with the "behind the scenes" stuff that he draws upon to decide how the characters will act. Then he said that readers were welcome to draw their own conclusions.

I don't recall any post where Jolly said outright that Brian "really believed" that Lexxy was on the line. There was a theory floating on the boards that Brian was just doing a practice run for possible social situations, just as he had practiced for game situations.

Myself, I think that we saw Brian deeply into a fantasy. And yes, probably not the best sign of mental health.

As for "The Incident", I am now convinced that it was in some way related to Brian confusing fantasy and reality. Whatever happened, it was so traumatic for Brian that not only did he give up GMing, but the other four people there took an oath of secrecy.

[Chuckg]

Great. Remember when KoDT was a /comedy/? This sounds like an after-school special on the dangers of gaming.

[Puffy Treat]

Bran's past actions were delusional...that's why the Knights did an intervention instead of just ignoring it or cutting him off from the group. So if Jolly says this is consistent with past actions...

[Draconomicon]

White Wolf Applying License to Indie Games



White Wolf Applying License to Indie Games

Posted by Zonk on Friday July 08, @07:42PM
from the goes-over-like-a-lead-balloon dept.
Enigma23 writes "White Wolf, Inc. has decided to enforce a licensing system upon those who run their games in their World of Darkness. Here is the full text of the license. The Licensing process will force those who have not already joined the Camarilla, White Wolf's official fan club, to pay a yearly $20 fee. They're not going to go after games that don't charge money for the event, but the wording is such that they can legally sue those who don't comply even if they only charge enough money to cover costs. The practical upshot is that technically the WW Stormtroopers could raid your house merely if everyone chips in a few quid for pizza. This is evidently doubly so if anyone in your gaming group is under the age of 18, which is against the membership policy of The Camarilla. There is a further discussion on RPG.net about the various issues involved." The BoingBoing discussion is interesting, as well.

MORE:
http://games.slashdot.org/games/05/07/08/1912245.shtml?tid=209&tid=155

[Metaphysician]

. . .are they stupid??

[BcAugust]

... Did someone check that isn't an old April Fools joke?

[Jagatai_Khan]

Even if it was real, it would be totally unenforcable. Such a lawsuit also wouldn't stand up in court.

[Dizzy D]

I agree with Bc, there is not a chance that this can be real. How could they ever enforce it? It would require a load of player cooperation.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Over at Nocturnis I'm getting strong indications that this isn't a joke, but that this is actually going to be a real policy. :confused:

Well, anyways, I haven't bought or played a White Wolf game in forever, so this really won't affect me one way or the other.

[Perry Holley]

WW's Justin Achilli posted the following over at RPG.net regarding this:

As always, topics like this bring out the armchair lawyers and the histrionics.

The purpose of this policy is to prevent larger, "unsanctioned" groups from trading on the White Wolf IP to generate profit for themselves. If you run a service for profit based on someone else's IP without a license, you have broken the law, just like selling bootleg CDs or DVDs without a license.

As a side benefit, it allows us to control a certain degree of quality and standards with regard to live-action groups. If we get a call from a convention organizer and she's all, "We'd like to have a Vampire LARP, but the last time we did, they sacrificed a goat and defiled all the minors in the building," we can say "They weren't officially sanctioned to run that game. Here's the contact info for your local Camarilla chapter, who will run this game professionally, safely and responsibly."

That's it. This isn't an attempt to invade your home game or generate another $20, nor is it an attempt to build a zombie world-conquest army populated by LARPers. It's quality control and trademark protection.

You may now return to the standard battery of hysteria.

Regards,
JustinAlso, Philippe Boulle, from White Wolf Marketing, posted this on the WW forums:


More on the Pay-to-Play Policy

Hello again,

Thanks to those who have posted their feelings or contacted me directly with them. I understand that this policy seems harsh and that many people are angry, upset or simply confused. Let me go into some details to help explain it all.

I understand that Storytellers regularly incur expenses during games (tabletop, LARP or what have you), and I understand the desire to recoup some of these expenses. I also realize that most of the people who have been charging for play in their games are doing so simply for that reason. We also have no intention of stopping a Storyteller from asking his or her players to chip in for pizza at a small game. This license does apply, however, when you are charging them a site fee or other standard fee and recruiting players far and wide.

The distinction is one of scale. Our intent is above all to be able to protect our rights and trademarks when dealing with large groups and commercial enterprises who are advertising, organizing large convention games, and setting up major events (like various “Gothic Cruises” or other enterprises I’ve seen pushed in various places). In order to be able to control such large systems, we have to have a consistent policy about people charging money in our name. That’s what this policy is meant for.

Ultimately, it would be ludicrous (and impossible) for us to track down every little game in which players help cover costs. In practice, if you and your friends decide to have a game and you ask everyone to chip in some cash, but don’t advertise it in any way or seek to find other players, we probably will never find out about it. We don’t endorse doing that and feel it does cross the line into commercialism, but there’s little we can do other than ask that you not do it.

In the end, the real test will be whether we can offer services through the Camarilla that help the promotion and running of large games with fees. I expect there’s a good amount of doubt as to whether we can, but only time will tell. In the case of those who are interested in recruiting more players, I hope that offering up the ability to promote your game in various White Wolf organs (mailing lists, newsletters, web-pages, etc.) will prove quite beneficial.

I do take the criticism and concerns of our fans very seriously and would like to ask a question. If the license had some sort of explicit exception for small groups (say 10 participants or less) in order to make clear that it doesn’t apply to small groups of players, would that address some of the concerns expressed here and elsewhere? I realize that many groups (especially LARP troupes) are larger than that and so won’t feel this helps them in any way, but I am looking for ways in which we can accommodate legitimate concerns and am open to suggestions.

Thank you,

Philippe Boulle
Marketing Director
White Wolf PublishingMake of this what you will.

[Shem the Penman]

Sounds like they're taking a leaf from Knights of the Dinner Table, where GMs get accredited and evaluated by the "Hackmaster Gamemaster's Association" ...

[Bright-Raven]

How is this "biting players"? What is the problem here?

White Wolf is clearly demonstrating their responsibility to their product, their consumers and the Camarilla by requiring non-Camarilla groups to license so that in the event of improper behavior or legal issues, both the company and members of the Camarilla can be legally protected from media misrepresentation, from unfair prejudice from legal authorities, and from untrustworthy parties on all levels.

For example - say a Storyteller acquires a site for X amount of dollars to run their game. They charge their players X + Y to play, and keep Y as under the table profit. This is what WW and the Camarilla are against, as such behavior is untrustworthy and as such is a breach of the WW / Camarilla Constitution. And it's a common practice in non-sanctioned events. This way, it's licensed, it's registered. They can take action within certain limits to maybe make things right.

I don't see what the problem is. As Phillippe Boulle points out, if you're running a small 5-6 player tabletop game out of your home, they're not going to hear about it anyway and don't much care as long as you're not starting up a Blood Cult. This is about public representation, either via LARPing outdoors in the real world, or at specified events like conventions.

[Chuckg]

If it's supposedly not about the money, then why are they charging $20 a year?

Name another game where the person who sells you the equipment you need to play the game with has the right to collect a further fee from you because you're charging admission to his game.

I mean, does the local country club have to pay annual royalties to Wilson and Cobra for making the golf balls and the golf clubs that people play golf with at their club? I mean, the club charges people money to get in, right?

Nope. The person who makes the equipment with which you play the game gets paid only once... when somebody buys the equipment and takes it out to play with.

Expanding the field to intellectual property -- should Bantam Books get to charge an annual fee to the Local Poetry Reading Club because the LPRC has membership dues? Or do they take the position that hey, if people want to go out and pay for the exact same experience with a book that they can stay home and get for free, they're perfectly entitled to, and it's not a violation of their intellectual property if somebody wants to rent a hall and charge admission to have a shared experience with a book they sell? Just so long as the book itself is legally bought and paid for?

This isn't scanning VtR books into PDF format and putting them on fileshare sites we're talking about here. This is customers buying White Wolf's stuff legally and using it to have fun with.

> White Wolf is clearly demonstrating their responsibility to their
> product, their consumers and the Camarilla by requiring non-Camarilla
> groups to license so that in the event of improper behavior or legal
> issues, both the company and members of the Camarilla can be legally
> protected from media misrepresentation, from unfair prejudice from
> legal authorities, and from untrustworthy parties on all levels.

And how is this alleged liability in any way *decreased* by *FORCING PEOPLE TO JOIN*?

I don't know about you, but trying to legally disassociate yourself from someone else's actions by forcing him to become a signed, sealed, and paid-for member of your club seems kinda counter-intuitive, don't it?

Not to mention that hey, we're not talking about first edition here. Non-Camarilla-sanctioned LARPing has only been around for, mmm, over a decade? And White Wolf has had /how/ much of a problem with these alleged "media misrepresentation, from unfair prejudice from legal authorities, and from untrustworthy parties on all levels."?

Yeah. About that little.

So your hypothesized reasons above don't so much fly as plummet.

And even if they were sound reasons, they still don't explain the "you must give us $20 a year" part. As WotC so ably proved, there actually /is/ such a thing as a free gaming license. (And if the 'you must license! from White Wolf was a free sign-up thing, I guarantee, there'd be a lot less complaining.)

But no, instead, they want the *cha-ching*.

So far, the only two likely purposes I can see for White Wolf here are:

a) the Camarilla want a monopoly on LARP events

b) they want to screw an extra $20 a year out of their customers and in return, give them membership in a club they didn't want to join in the first place, and the 'right' to entertain themselves with property that they've already legally bought and paid for.

[Chuckg]

For example - say a Storyteller acquires a site for X amount of dollars to run their game. They charge their players X + Y to play, and keep Y as under the table profit. This is what WW and the Camarilla are against, as such behavior is untrustworthy and as such is a breach of the WW / Camarilla Constitution.

Unless the event organizers are actively presenting themselves as a White Wolf official event when they actually are not, there is nothing either illegal or untrustworthy going on here.

And the Camarilla Constitution is binding only upon members of the club... and gee, you know, there's a whole lot of LARPers who aren't.

[Chuckg]

And last, but certainly not least, your argument is flawed in another way entirely...

... you see, White Wolf's latest edict is not restricted solely to LARP games.

They're also going after the tabletop gamers as well.

And can anyone come up with an even remotely rational-sounding reason as to why a pure tabletop gamer should have to pay $20 a year to White Wolf's in-house LARP outfit for the right to use their game in any setting where money changes hands (whether it be con fees, college gaming club dues, contributions for pizza, or renting a room to play in)?


Q. Which games fall under this license?

A. All White Wolf roleplaying games (traditional tabletop or live-action) regardless of setting. This includes all World of Darkness games, Exalted, Trinity, Scarred Lands and most anything else published by White Wolf, Arthaus Publishing or Sword & Sorcery Studios. If you are unsure whether the game you are interested in falls under this license, please contact Philippe Boulle, Marketing Director of White Wolf Publishing, at prboulle@white-wolf.com.

-- http://forums.white-wolf.com/viewtopic.php?t=19615


So, explain to me why I should have to join the Camarilla LARP club to play tabletop Exalted in my college RPG club? (Which charges dues).

Good God, at least two of the things they list there... Scarred Lands and Sword & Sorcery... are already covered under the Wotc's d20 licensing. White Wolf wants me to pay $20 a year to their in-house fan club to have the 'right' to run games with gaming engines they don't even own?

[kid cthulhu]

Okay, tabletop games too?!

That'd be almost laughable if it wasn't so ridiculous...

[Bright-Raven]

Name another game where the person who sells you the equipment you need to play the game with has the right to collect a further fee from you because you're charging admission to his game.

Any recognized organized kids' sports league. They all charge a lump sum fee for the season. You still have to pay it once a year. You still have to pay fees for the rights to use the fields annually. And the kids don't normally get to keep the equipment, either. How about non-league sports? Can you just walk into any gym and workout? Play racquetball on their courts, or basketball? No - you either pay a fee when you enter and sign in, or you pay a fee to use their equipment and facilities.

Let's try collectible card games. Certainly they're free of such stigma, right? Wrong. There are tons of CCG tournament groups that charge WEEKLY fees to play, and some of them even have rules where if you lose your match, you forfeit speciality cards or even the entire deck you're playing with!

What's your next example? Because I don't care what the game is, if it's an organized, sanctioned group being played anywhere that is not in the privacy of your own home, it's likely going to cost you money to do it.

And White Wolf has had /how/ much of a problem with these alleged "media misrepresentation, from unfair prejudice from legal authorities, and from untrustworthy parties on all levels"?

I know of at least three accounts where Las Vegas police harrassed LARPers who were playing the Masquerade as members of the Camarilla, and White Wolf did in fact contact legal advisors on behalf of those players and the local Camarilla Officers issued statements to local media representatives demanding that said media issue a retraction of comments made about LARP in general, and of the questioned players who were proven not to be associated with those who were actually involved in the crimes being investigated. (Which happened to be street gangs who were vandalizing the area and using WW terminology like the Gangrels.)

So why is White Wolf applying it to all their gaming systems? Might as well get it done all in one fell swoop I would suspect.

I don't know about you, but trying to legally disassociate yourself from someone else's actions by forcing him to become a signed, sealed, and paid-for member of your club seems kinda counter-intuitive, don't it?

Actually, what it does is gives the local official group an additional ability to prove / disprove that such people were A) given the proper code of LARPing and B) that said party in question chose to break said code, and that the official group does not condone the behavior and will not stand for outside accusations otherwise.

Non-sanctioned LARP groups and groups not even associated with role players (such as street gangs who decide they're going to be "vampires" and commit vandalism and other crimes, as has happened in Vegas and plenty of other cities) will often times blame the game for their actions. That causes friction between the local communities and the law abiding LARPers.

As for LARPing being around for long before that - yes, it has been. It's been around since the early 1970s. What's your point? That it "wasn't needed then, so it's not needed now"? I've watched medieval LARPers do re-enactments or hold combat tournaments. People can and do get hurt, and some people simply do not respect what LARP is supposed to represent. Hell, Chuck, I've seen people get into fights over stupid CCG games (of course, when you're forfeiting your deck if you lose... what can you expect?).

And yes, Chuck, there ARE competitions where you stake your deck or a rare card in tourneys. They aren't sanctioned by WW, or WOTC or whomever else, either. But you can bet when a twelve year old beats up an eight year old in the middle of a bookstore because the idiot manager set up his tourney that way, the game and the company gets blamed by the local media, instead of the idiot who didn't play by Sanctioned Rules. We used to have 5-6 MAGIC Tournaments weekly. Now we have one weekend tournament every three months locally, and then the judge is an officially sanctioned member and is also a policeman.

That's how ridiculous this stuff has become.

Now, does White Wolf want to make you pay the $20 to play in the privacy of your own home? NO. They even tell you, as long as you're not advertising yourselves, they're not going to hear about it and they don't particularly care.

And WHY would you advertise it? WHERE would you advertise it? Oh yes, you might put a flyer up in a comics shop with your phone number saying you're looking for role players. You don't have to announce you're playing WW games. The interested party can be informed of that when they call.

[Chuckg]

> Any recognized organized kids' sports league. They all charge a lump
> sum fee for the season. You still have to pay it once a year. You still
> have to pay fees for the rights to use the fields annually. And the kids
> don't normally get to keep the equipment, either.

But do they pay regular annual fees to the people who sell them the equipment? Because that's what White Wolf is in this analogy. It's not the league. It's not the guys who you rent the field from. It's the people who sold 'em the bat, the ball, and the gloves.

Who, in a normal world, get paid once -- and then go on to sell more bats, balls, and gloves to other leagues, while the league they leave behind happily goes on charging annual fees to its members, without having to send a further dime back to the equipment manufacturer for the right to use stuff they've already bought free and clear.

[snip]
> What's your next example? Because I don't care what the game is, if
> it's an organized, sanctioned group being played anywhere that is not
> in the privacy of your own home, it's likely going to cost you money to
> do it.

Money paid to the organizers of the group... *NOT* to the original game equipment manufacturer.

Oh, and hey, look at who just completely ignored the fact that White Wolf is applying this to *ALL* their games... not just the WoD, and not just LARP. They're going after tabletop games too. Even the d20 ones, which they themselves have to license from WotC, and don't own the core engine for.

So explain to me again how its necessary to protect their reputation that they force people who are running a college RPG club game of tabletop Exalted or d20 Ravenloft to join the Camarilla fan club. And pay annual dues.

[BcAugust]

Raven, you're also not noticing one other thing. It's joining a club with already static rules. Which include: No minors(this would apply now even to tabletop, remember?) And some of the WW games are suitable for minors, such as Exalted, Ravenloft and Trinity books. It also has that you have to accept other members into your game, or lose your own membership(along with the license, in this setup). And you have to run games that go by the club guidelines, which determine canon. That means, say, that five of the WW games I personally have STed, would be illegal under this ruling. (Elder's game(with Chuck, reaverofpeace, and Pendaran), A "kill Buffy" game (My old tabletop group, which did include four new people who came by for a second and third session), Dodge City(Reaverofpeace, FBH, Jack, Anon, MatthewC, and Dizzy) Shih (JefferyWKramer, Reaverofpeace, Metaphysician, and CBRWatcher), and a Requiem game (Pendaran, JefferyWKramer, and CBRWatcher) )

That doesn't even count the games I've just played.

Oh, and Raven, it's not the X + Y games that are being attacked. It's only X games as well. In fact, any exchange of money during or for a game is covered under that. Thankfully, online games, unless you exchange money for books or a site fee/donation fee, are exempt. Still... I doubt I will be running tabletop WW in the future. In fact, I won't buy about sixty dollars worth of product like I was planning in August, or anything close to the over $500 dollars I have spent on WW before this.

Ah, and the Camarilla has been alreay in trouble before this. In fact, the number of complaints on the group have been immense, and have been so for years. Even someone like me, who likes WW, absolutely refuses to go to a Camarilla LARP, given what I've seen/heard about it.

[Jagatai_Khan]

I used to go to Camarilla LARPS, and they were nightmares. The was absolutely no standard of player quality, which comes with the territory when you're an official organization: You can't just turn people away for being stupid, or annoying, or a known powergamer, or because they're really at the game to pick up goth-chicks (or guys) instead of actually play the game. You can't play with the ideal situation of a small hand-picked group of gamers that you know and trust. Instead, it's pot-luck every time.

The whole prestige/reknown system that players (OOC) have to abide bye in order to play certain characters is further stupid, and hamstrings STs. What if you know somebody who's a really good gamer and could play a terrific Elder? Well, they don't have prestige, so they can only play a 13th Gen neonate. Too bad. Meanwhile, Twink-boy over here who's got tons of prestige from helping administrate events (yes, you can get IC benefits for doing OOC things, including donating money. Or, at least, that's how it worked in the DFW area back when I still associated with the Cam) gets to play his Brujah 6th Gen monster with Puissance, Fleetness, and Majesty.

I could, possibly, understand this new rule if it only applied to LARPS, since they're asking peopel to join White Wolf's LARP club. But since it applies to everything, that means that even if you wanted to play a game of Old-School Trinity and wanted to rent out a sizalbe room to play it in, you'd have to join the Cam. So then Twink-boy could show up and you'd have to let him play in your Trinity game, and let him use all his ill-gotten Prestige to play a near-Proxy character that will totally break the setup of your game. And you're out of the club (and can't run the game at all unless you do so with *no* way to recoup expenses) if you decide to not let him play, or decide to not let him use his Prestige for anything.

Meh.

This pretty much means that if you're an ST, and you don't want to be part of the Cam, you have to either be rich and able to shoulder *all* the expenses yourself, or you have to figure out a way to play for free (which means, generally, playing in people's living rooms or kitchens or other locations not very well suited to gaming)

Not cool. Despite whatever sort of legal rationalizations that White-Wolf has for this move, essentially they're taking control of thier product, which the players have already bought, out of the player's hands and back into thier hands.

Maybe Wizards of the Coast will follow suit and require everybody who charges for any D&D-related event to join the Living Greyhawk organization, even if their game isn't set in Greyhawk. Or even if they're not playing D&D at all (maybe they'll be playing Magic The Gathering, which is also owned by Wizards)

[Bright-Raven]

Chuck:

But do they pay regular annual fees to the people who sell them the equipment? Because that's what White Wolf is in this analogy. It's not the league. It's not the guys who you rent the field from. It's the people who sold 'em the bat, the ball, and the gloves.

Yes, Chuck. Some leagues do in fact pay fees to the manufacturers directly or to stores that carry said equipment for supplies on an annual basis, which in turn means the manufacturers see the money. Uniforms wear out. Equipment breaks / gets lost / gets stolen.

Oft times the local businesses that sponsor the leagues pay these expenses so that the players (or player's parents) don't have to. Otherwise people couldn't afford to have sports leagues. But the expenses *are* there and *somebody* pays to have them recouped.

Sorry they don't have local businesses to sponsor LA/TTRPG, but it'd be kinda difficult to explain to the average person.

Oh, and hey, look at who just completely ignored the fact that White Wolf is applying this to *ALL* their games...

There is a difference between "ignoring" something, and not commenting for not having enough information to post a proper unbiased commentary on it. If you actually read their news release, they are *not* applying this policy to their CCG games at all whatsoever. So technically they are not applying this policy to "*ALL*" of their games.

*********

BC:

What I had originally said was, since paying the licensing fee and joining the Camarilla appear to be the same expense, I could see the potential benefits of the group. You are saying that there are negatives to it, and I can agree with that view. That would be the reason to pay the licensing fee and still not join the 'Cam', which to my understanding of things is allowed.

But having read the Camarilla's site I didn't see anything that says you have to play your system strictly within their guidelines for storytelling.

It also has that you have to accept other members into your game, or lose your own membership(along with the license, in this setup).

I did not see anything to that effect on any information I have read from WW. I have seen other players complain about this notion, though, so I may have missed it. Obviously that would be a deterrent, as any gaming group should be able to reserve the right to refuse a player into their group with proper reasoning.

It's joining a club with already static rules.

Well, technically they *aren't* static. You can motion to redress their constitution at any time at any level. There's no reason why you cannot write up a guideline for minors and state what is and is not acceptable for "minors allowed" RPing and submit it to them for consideration. There is nothing in the WW Constitution saying that you cannot form your own troupe with those additional guidelines specific to your own group, either. You just won't be "official" through the 'Cam'. Big whoop.

Keep in mind that the WW Constitution is a well developed *guideline* on how to LARP in the WoD, not international law. ;) Just because certain members in the Camarilla or other WW RPG groups like to think it is, doesn't make it so. The point of the WW Constitution is to help you as a gamer set rules for your own troupe to follow, not necessarily be part of their fan club. That to me is what the $20 fee is for - sort of a fiscal agreement that you will run your games within reasonable respect to their Code.

(Granted, you have an issue with the age thing. Which is cool. You CAN ignore that particular guideline, if you address other issues regarding age specific to your troupe and provide that documentation to your troupe members, you know.)

My point was and is that the Camarilla and various other LARP / RPG organizations of similar design do have a positive purpose and function. Not that Camarilla (or any other RPG Organization) was this bastion of greatness. Not that you have to join them. And White Wolf does not say you have to join the Camarilla - they say it's just the easiest manner in which to do things.

What they say is this (and this is very important):

The license is not necessary in order to play our games. It is necessary in order to charge others money to play with you. At that point you have stepped into a commercial venture (no matter how small) and need to obtain a legal license to use our games, settings and systems in that venture. Just as you can’t buy a DVD and then charge money to others to see it, you can’t buy one of our games and then charge others to play it.

Now people are complaining about the food, costuming, props, and site fees... let's tackle them one at a time:

FOOD

Sorry, but White Wolf can't remotely claim that you wouldn't have gotten hungry and ordered a pizza or subs or whatever while doing other things with your friends. Food has nothing to do with their product. Any sensible lawyer (let alone a judge) would kick their asses out the door on that one. So if they're dumb assed enough to go after some gamer group on that (and it somehow manages to come to court), I'll be laughing my ass off when the gamer group wins their countersuit citing harassment.

COSTUMES / PROPS

Consider all the CosPlayers on this site who do not roleplay at all whatsoever, and that presumably most (all?) players for the LARP would be keeping their own costumes for other events (Masquerade dance parties, Halloween, RenFaires, conventions, etc.). Again WW has no recourse if a gamesmaster acquires these things for players and the players reimburse him / her, as these items are for usage in matters outside of their silly little games.

SITE FEES:

Can this be something that White Wolf gets on your case for? Nope. Not unless they can prove that you have no other reason to rent that site. And there's too many other gaming systems you can LARP. Or you could be renting it for other reasons. They are not going to be able to prove that you specifically bought it for WW only if you have any brains whatsoever and know how to properly set up your gaming group.

Furthermore, seeing as you don't NEED a site to play the game...

So, where are we? They still have to prove that you charged the players for the right to play their game with you. And they can't. Not on any level. Not unless YOU are stupid enough to advertise it and thus make yourself representative of their product.

About the only thing I can think of that would be legitimate would be if someone took their printed books, scanned them into a computer, and sold either a .pdf file or a printed copy of the product from their scanned version as the only means for you to play the game with them. That would likely be copyright and trademark infringement as well as breach of this policy.

So again, why get all bent out of whack over this?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Regardless of their reasons for doing this, this sort of behavior just creates bad will between WW and the gaming community. As such, it becomes just another in the long line of WW shooting itself in the ass.

Sometimes one has to wonder if they don't get kickbacks from WotC for behaving in this manner.

[Jared_Humpherys]

Wait, this affects Aberrant, too?

Screw that, I'm gonna go download "Deeds Not Words."

[Bright-Raven]

I'm waiting to hear back from certain RPG professionals I've associations with who have had affiliations with WW in the past or currently to get their thoughts on the matter.

Don't know when I might hear back from them. But if they're as jumpy and snarky as others' reactions about it, then I'll reconsider my position. If they react how I *think* they're going to, however, I'm probably going to be told not to even give this a second thought and to just continue QED, or they'll offer suggestions for different gaming systems to play. (And believe me, these people have no problem pimping anyone. We're talking writers / game testers who have worked for WW, WotC, Pinnacle, Steve Jackson Games, Palladium Games and various other publishers alike without prejudice.)

[BcAugust]

Oh, most of us completely agree that WW doesn't have a leg to stand on, legally. But if you went to the actual website the WW posted, well...

http://forums.white-wolf.com/viewtopic.php?t=19615

Their FAQ specifically states that site fees do apply under this. Any money that exchanges hands counts. Also, you can't pay the fee and not join the club. You have to join the club to get the license.

By the way, even though the FAQ says it won't effect your game continuity, the actual membership contract that they have says otherwise. *shrugs* Honestly, if you aren't very involved with WW, this isn't a big deal. It's people like me who have to be worried. Especially with that "have to join by the second game" stuff for our players. Even if it's unenforcable, people who run these games have to be aware of it. And it's easier to just avoid the whole thing, rather then worry about it.

I love WW game systems. I love running them. But with this in place, I won't be running them after January. Because I can't afford to try and fight any of this, and I don't want to be a member of the Cam.

[Jagatai_Khan]

I think it's time for somebody to come up with and distribute a homebrew LARP system set in a modern world with a hidden dark supernatural subculture. Which will be completely unaffiliated with any current RPG company and open-sourced, of course.

Anybody want to help me? :D

[Chuckg]

Might I suggest the 'Dreaming Cities' supplement for Tri-Stat dX? It's their urban fantasy genre book.

It doesn't have any rules for vampires, or anything like them... but you can easily gen up a vampire template from the powers list. :)

[yeoman]

Might I suggest the 'Dreaming Cities' supplement for Tri-Stat dX? It's their urban fantasy genre book.

It doesn't have any rules for vampires, or anything like them... but you can easily gen up a vampire template from the powers list. :)

My only problem with Dreaming Cities was the powers don't mesh with BESM dispite them both being D6 tri-stat games (points and effects for powers that do exist in both systems are different), which means I have to work a bit to convert the powers.

But then, they were meant to do different things (and of course BESM 3rd ed. might be more in line points wise). Other than that, I like the Tri-stat system. Now if only I could get a chance to play it...

[CaptMagellan]

Now, does White Wolf want to make you pay the $20 to play in the privacy of your own home? NO. They even tell you, as long as you're not advertising yourselves, they're not going to hear about it and they don't particularly care.


But they do care enough to state:


Ultimately, it would be ludicrous (and impossible) for us to track down every little game in which players help cover costs. In practice, if you and your friends decide to have a game and you ask everyone to chip in some cash, but don’t advertise it in any way or seek to find other players, we probably will never find out about it. We don’t endorse doing that and feel it does cross the line into commercialism, but there’s little we can do other than ask that you not do it.


Which indicates that officially they are saying they think it's wrong and infringing on their rights, they just realize there's not much they can do about it.

The morallizing is one of the things that has rubbed some people the wrong way. As well as the 'advertising'. Does that include just putting up a 3 X 5 card at your local gaming store to get that fifth player your troupe needs?

No, they won't go after that but it seems that their opinion is that even that small amount of marketing for a private game is somehow infringing on their trademarks.

The RPG community is one where there is a perceived relationship between the manufacturers and the players, especially the older ones like SJG, White Wolf, Chaosium, etc. Having White Wolf take this stance has the emotional/PR impact of having someone you were on a first name basis with suddenly get cold and insist you call them Mr. Smith.

[BcAugust]

... I'm literally speechless at the moment. I can't believe.... *shakes head* I feel sorry for the people employed at WW, but this has just confirmed I'm not buying another one of their books again.

Bright Raven, this is the equalivent of saying that if you bought your son/daughter a baseball bat and glove, you'd have to pay the company for every game you played with them, even in your own backyard. RPG books have always been a "make your own way" thing, in fact, the freedom to use the books as you will has been a major selling point. I find the fact WW no longer respects that.... means that I will no longer be buying their games.

[CaptMagellan]

I really liked Rich Ranello's post (#396) on RPGnet listing when WW actually recommend advertising and asking for reimbursement...

"Originally Posted by Mind's Eye Theater Rulebook, p. 282
If a private residence isn’t an option, there are still a number of options, although you might have to pass around a donation hat to cover the costs of securing some places. Examples of alternative locations are public parks, rented halls, dorm lounges, night clubs, convention centers, hotel conference rooms, apartment complex common areas, museums, student centers, restaurant meeting rooms, office board rooms and shopping malls."

"Originally Posted by Mind's Eye Theater Rulebook, p. 317-318
Rearrange furniture, set up lighting and sound equipment if you have any and otherwise prepare the environment. If parts of the play area are going to represent different locations or be designated as out-of-game, make sure they are clearly marked so that players aren’t confused about where they are in-game. If you provide refreshments, make sure they are set up in a convenient location, and don’t feel shy about passing around the hat to offset the expense — most players will gladly chip in a few bucks to have drinks and snacks on hand for the game."

and

"Originally Posted by Mind's Eye Theater Rulebook, p. 318
Unless you are running a private game or one with a limited number of players, don’t hesitate to advertise with flyers or other promotional materials, and be sure to tape up signs or have Narrators waiting to help make sure your players can find the game location."

[CaptMagellan]

I completely understand the idea that if people are actually profiting from running a game (i.e., making money instead of just breaking even for the cost to host the thing) then they are possibly infringing on WW rights.

But, I've never encountered, heard of, played with, or even heard rumored anyone who actually makes money at WW LARPing, Cthulhu Live LARPing, etc. Or tabletop games.

Is this a real problem? Is this something that goes on somewhere? People making money off of this hobby?

Because if there isn't, then who exactly are they trying to stop?

[Shellhead]

This was a big topic for me last weekend. Last Friday was (coincidentally) the final session of a vampire larp that I helped ST. We started planning our game in January of 2002, started running it in September of 2003, and then I dropped out in July of 2004 after the ridiculous Night of Four Justicars. But I did come back for our finale, when we rented out a local mansion (Hill House) for $300 for our game. For a handful of Storytellers to cough up $300 for a one-time location fee without help from the players would unreasonably expensive, so of course we hated this new edict from White Wolf.

By the time of the cast party/barbecue on Saturday, we reached the conclusion that White Wolf was mainly doing this to cover their butts legally, and also to crush and conquer the One World by Night (OWBN, or "Obi-wan") larp organization. That's okay with me, because I have zero respect for a world of darkness larp organization that permits railguns and light sabers in their games. On the other hand, the Cam has a bad rep for power-gaming twinks who travel to attend several games each month, just to maximize their XP. I would sooner stop playing White Wolf games than join the Cam and be forced to allow their twinks to attend one of our larps.

Fortunately, there are larping alternatives, and anyway, our large group of gamers have gotten burned out on vampires after over seven consecutive years of vampire larps. Cthulhu Live is a good game, although it works best for small groups. Legend of the Five Rings now has larp rules, and they look pretty good from what I've read so far. And since larping is really more of a style of rpg'ing than anything else, it would be reasonable to adapt all kinds of other rpgs to larps.

The tabletop part of White Wolf's edict is more troubling. Obviously they can't effectively enforce it, but it does put a damper on convention games. Maybe they will think twice after getting feedback at the major conventions this summer.

[CaptMagellan]

By the time of the cast party/barbecue on Saturday, we reached the conclusion that White Wolf was mainly doing this to cover their butts legally, and also to crush and conquer the One World by Night (OWBN, or "Obi-wan") larp organization.

I've read about this motive as well, and if it is true, it just sounds... petty to me for a company to try and eliminate a large fan group (who are all rabid WW consumers) who happen to interpret the way to play the game in their own way.

Unless there have been cases of legal, ethical, etc. liabilities by OWBN, why should they care?

Isn't it one of the long standing RPG beliefs (and one stated in every WW book - at least from the old WOD) that players/storytellers play the games they want, discarding the rules they don't like, the subplots they don't like, etc.

Forcing everyone into the Camarilla's interpretation seems very contrary to the spirit of RPGing in general.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Yes, but this is White Wolf, the company that has, IIRC, done every single thing they swore they're "never do".

They said they'd never publish a book about Infernalism, but they did. (Infernalism: The Path of Screams, and later the Book of Madness, both editions.)

They said they'd never make an Apocalypse/Gehenna/Ascension book, but they did.

They said they'd never make a book about playing a Demon, but they did. Hell, they themed an entire year around it.

So now that I think about it more, this whole thing is, while saddening and angering, not surprising at all. Are they really doing so badly that they want to try to squeeze money out of players in such a way? Don't they know how negatively this will affect thier sales?

Well, I'm going to check out that Dreaming Cities thingy now, since it sounds interesting, and since Wizards hasn't really done a good job of supporting or promioting thier d20 Modern/Urban Arcana setting. (Though if they made LARP rules for Urban Arcana, I'd be very tempted to play.)

[CaptMagellan]

They've withdrawn the license...


All-

First of all, let me thank everyone who has posted and emailed on this topic, both here and in a variety of other forums. Obviously, the reaction to our pay-for-play policy has been vocal and largely critical, but believe it or not, I'm happy about that. Getting feedback and comments from our fans, customers and fellow-gamers is very important to me, and in many ways negative comments are the most useful. It's also heartening to see and hear from people who obviously care very deeply about their hobby. My apologies to those I haven't had the chance to respond to personally.

Clearly, I have failed to communicate our intentions and goals with this policy -- both in discussions online and off, and in the wording of the policy itself. White Wolf has no interest in closing down, regulating or otherwise stifling the countless small, ad hoc and home-run games that have always been the heart's blood of the gaming hobby (tabletop and live-action both). The so-called "pizza scenario" is the last thing we want to have any say on.

We are interested in building a larger community of World of Darkness players and in supporting the various Storytellers and organizers who are putting on great events. We envision a time when all World of Darkness players have easy access to a panoply of organized games, when they can freely and easily communicate, when they can get neat benefits from us and from their fellow fans, and if they choose to organize games of their own, they have plenty of tools to make them successful. Likewise, we are interested in making sure that when a World of Darkness fan has to shell out her hard-earned money to play a game, she can be reasonably sure that this game lives up to the standards she has come to expect.

Based on all your feedback, it's obvious that the policy as currently worded is not going to accomplish these goals. So, we are pulling it off the table as a blanket policy. I realize that the proverbial genie can't be shoved back in the bottle, but the guidelines I handed to a few people at ORIGINS and posted here last week clearly need to be reworked and rethought, so please consider them withdrawn.

I expect to chat with some of the major LARP organizations running World of Darkness games in the coming weeks in order to hammer out license terms that address their needs and ours, and don't penalize the player community that has made the World of Darkness what it is (and that pays my salary).

Sincerely,

--
Philippe R. Boulle
Marketing Director
White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
1554 Litton Drive
Stone Mountain, GA 30083
404-292-1819 x203 (vox); 678-382-3882 (fax)


Of course, they do say they will be redrafting it to address the bigger LARPS (profit or no) so it's possible they'll still be trying to limit OWBN.

[JeffreyWKramer]

They've withdrawn the license...

Well, this demonstrates they are at least not entirely insane, greedy control freaks.

[Jagatai_Khan]

*shrug*

This was only withdrawn after they saw, overwhelmingly, the negative reaction to it. It's purely a self-interest move and contains no consideration for the players, IMO.

So there's no virtue in it. I'm still not going to play thier games, because I know they'll just do it again as soon as they can find out how to sweeten it enough that it doesn't backfire on them.

[CaptMagellan]

Yeah. I'm still curious about whether there actually are any groups that make profit off of running MET. They seem to really have it out for OWBN, and they're pretty clearly in the not making a profit camp. From a certain point of view it looks like they feel slighted/paranoid over the success of OWBN and just want to stop them.

Someone on RPGnet put it like...

It sounds to me a lot like: "We're still going to bully the people we were originally planning to bully on the spurious basis that we can control how, when, and under what conditions people who have already bought our games can play them. However, we've found that the PR backlash from having a public, general policy to point to as part of that effort is too great to be justified by the amount of leverage it adds to our bullying, so we'll just bully them one-on-one in private without the public policy."


It'll be the terms of the final license to the larger, but still not profitting, groups that will determine how understanding and reasonable WW is on this issue.

[Metaphysician]

In all honesty: why the hell should anyone, single or group need a license to use their game products?? All the "license" one needs ought be contained in the money you pay to *buy* the product.

If a few ( thousand ) people want to get together and organize how they play the game, its their business.

[Shades0077]

Isn't this pretty much just the same thing as MMORPGs charging a monthly fee to play the game?

Or, if not, do the White Wolf people come and monitor your games? Just don't tell them. What they don't know, keeps 20 bucks in your pocket.

[Metaphysician]

Invalid comparison. MMORPGs provide a *continuing* service: the servers on which the game runs.

IIRC, its also possible to buy a copy of the full version of the game, to run on an independent server. In which case, the price goes up, but you don't pay anything afterwards.

Whereas the sourcebooks themselves are *all* that an RPG company provides.

[Shades0077]

Ah, ok. Well then doesn't my second point stand? How is White Wolf gonna find out, unless you rat yourself out to them?

[BcAugust]

Ah, ok. Well then doesn't my second point stand? How is White Wolf gonna find out, unless you rat yourself out to them?

To be frank, even though I don't like either Larp, Larp events do advertise. Heck, all WW has to do is look on the web, if need be. And tabletop games advertise as well. For instance, even here, I had/have three online WOD games advertised.

I'm glad to see they took the policy down, but it will be... interesting to see what they try next.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Ah, ok. Well then doesn't my second point stand? How is White Wolf gonna find out, unless you rat yourself out to them?

That's not the point. We shouldn't have to worry about the sword of damocles hanging over our heads as we play our illegal, underground non-sanctioned non-Camarilla-registered games.

We should be able to play our games, free and clear, having already paid for them.

[Shellhead]

I haven't done much tabletop role-playing in the last few years, but I did run several consecutive Villains & Vigilantes campaigns during a five year span, and I've played in various Champions campaigns over the years. And I ran a few of the Marvel modules for the TSR Marvel rpg from the 80's.

We had a lot of fun with the super-hero genre, and I bet you have, too. Tell us about it. Give us campaign concepts, hero concepts, villain concepts, or even just some funny stories.

Here, I'll start. In one of my V&V games, the players wanted to mock the X-Men, so they made a team called the Y-Guys. Instead of having a justification for having a crime-fighting team, their schtick was that their purpose was secret, hence the "Y" in their name. Their headquarters was an ice cream truck, which became problematic because of all the kids chasing after them. They needed the truck, because one of the heroes had a weakness involving melting in warm temperatures... he was Maytag Man, basically an Iceman copy.

[Perry Holley]

Here, I'll start. In one of my V&V games, the players wanted to mock the X-Men, so they made a team called the Y-Guys. Instead of having a justification for having a crime-fighting team, their schtick was that their purpose was secret, hence the "Y" in their name. Their headquarters was an ice cream truck, which became problematic because of all the kids chasing after them. They needed the truck, because one of the heroes had a weakness involving melting in warm temperatures... he was Maytag Man, basically an Iceman copy.Funny stuff!

I usually wind up GMing any superhero games we play in, so I don't really have a lot of favorite characters of my own.

The last thing I ran in this genre was a series of V&V one-shots, featuring students at Xavier's academy. There was a lot of alternate continuity going on (Jean remaining dead, Scott dating Lorna, Logan never having the adamantium skeleton, etc.) Things were pretty brutal at times, a lot of the NPCs got knocked off or maimed (especially when Logan was possessed by Proteus and went on a killing spree).

[Metaphysician]

Well, currently, I'm only running one tabletop superhero. Except that the game isn't run on a tabletop, and the character really isn't properly speaking a superhero.

( AIM Chat-based game using slightly modified Aberrant rules, and a vastly modified Aberrant setting, specifically, a quasi-Atlantean advanced age )

[grendel824]

Many years ago, my friend ran a great Marvel campaign. I was the only player, and I made an Eternal and decided that he was Theseus, the hero who slew the minotaur and all that other stuff. His first adventure was coming out of retirement to investigate the murder of Captain America. It was run brilliantly, and because my character was so powerful, the game was run with that in mind - my character was rarely in personal danger, but it was a challenge to keep casualties low in the kinds of fights he was drawn into.

He ended up keeping the shield, and eventually ended up running for President of the U.S. against Henry Peter Gyrich. All kinds of crazy stuff happened that probably sounds dumb when I just write it out in a post like this, but I'll do it anyway - the Beetle became dictator of Europe, Doughboy (Zemo's old monster) suddenly gained super-intelligence and became the mayor of New York, then lost his intellect in the middle of his term. An illegal immigrant who was slowly dying as he got more and more powerful (named "Terminal") became the new Captain America.

Reed Richards checked himself into a mental institution, then after being "cured" started hanging out with the world's most dangerous and evil supervillains (Apocalypse, Sinister, Doom, etc.). When written correctly, an insane and evil Reed Richards is actually quite scary. We never actually finished the game, though it went on for years. It was very well-run, and now that I think of it would probably make a good "What If?" run... I've got to try to get him to pick the game up where we left off someday...

[Bouncing_Beast]

Give us campaign concepts, hero concepts, villain concepts, or even just some funny stories.

Its been a while since I was able to be involved in any RPG'ing (just not enough time these days, with all these "adult" responsibilities) but I used to run a Fuzion based Superhero campaign.

I think one of my favorite original character concepts (as opposed to riffs on existing comic book characters) was a hero called "8-Ball". He had eight pool-ball sized spheres that he could psychically control. The the gimic was flexible enough that you could do a lot of really interesting things with those spheres (flying by having them carry the character or others, pummel opponents by holding them in his hand, ranged attacks, trip them up like the old "marbels on the floor" trick, block incomming blows or missiles, blind or distract an opponent, etc.) but it was limited enough that the character was still interesting.

[GozertheGozarian]

Anyone have or know where I can find a PDF of Invid Invasion? I'm setting up to run a Palladium campaign, and it's the only Robotech I can't find.

[Perry Holley]

Unlike a lot of other RPG companies, Palladium doesn't seem interested in selling PDFs of their products, and even if they were, I don't think they have the rights to see Robotech related stuff anymore, so I don't think there are any legal PDFs of the Palladium/Robotech stuff.

As for illegal PDFs thereof, this isn't the place to ask.

[Chuckg]

(some content reposted from Rumbles)

Today, I have something I found while going through various indie RPG games... a diceless, statless, free-form storytelling RPG system.

http://www.ivanhoeunbound.com/success.html

I'm going to quote the entire 'Basic Mechanic' section as a teaser to get you guys to read it -- there are other important sections as well, such as "When the DM can say no", ,"When the players can override", etc. To find out what those are, click the link.


BASIC MECHANIC

Whenever a player describes his character taking an action that is within the realm of possibility for the game world, no matter how slim the chance of success, he is generally to describe things as if the action succeeded. When doing so, the player is encouraged to add qualifiers and description so as to aid in the suspension of disbelief, i.e. to make the success sound more "realistic" according to the style of game being played.

Wrong: "I attempt to pick the lock. Does it open?"

Bad: "I pick the lock."

Better: "I pull out a hatpin and pick the lock."

Good: "I pull out a hatpin and fumble around with the lock for an extended period of time, making a little more noise than I would like. At last, the lock pops open."

The player always has the option of describing a failure, especially if the player feels that would be more interesting, or if he wants to give another player a chance to be in the limelight. "I train my sniper rifle on the Senator's head, start to squeeze the trigger… and my muscles spasm, spoiling my aim and smashing the car's windshield with a stray shot."

Note that depending on character concept, some actions will be routine for the character, and for the purposes of pacing, can be glossed over. If it's established that the character is an expert locksmith, the "Bad" example above may be acceptable, since everyone knows the character can pick locks without too much trouble, especially if he has his tools with him.

Players are also encouraged to develop their character's backstory in play if they didn't opt for a detailed backstory during character generation. In fact, this is a great way to justify and describe actions. "Since my character used to a juvenile delinquent, he has no problem picking that lock with improvised tools, though it takes him a little while since his skills are rusty." Don't overdo this; dumb luck is an acceptable reason for success, no matter how unlikely, especially in certain genres (like those based on children's stories and certain types of Japanese animation). Players are encouraged to add details to scenes that the GM has left out, making their own contributions to the setting and feel of the game. (The amount of leeway players get for this will vary depending on the preferences of the group. Try stretching the limits a bit.)

In combat, the player (or GM, for GMCs, see below) should assume he hits and describe the blow and the resulting wound in whatever level of detail the group is comfortable with, so the GM or relevant player knows whether a character is out of the combat or not. The usual issues of impossibility and improbability apply (see Wrinkles, below), and the GM is the final arbiter of whether or not a character can continue to fight. As with any action, players are encouraged to make their descriptions interesting.

Like PCs, Game Moderator Characters always succeed at what they do – unless the GM wants them to fail. (Certain GMCs, like Imperial Stormtroopers, may always fail under certain conditions, like when the PCs are around.) This often means the order of actions is important. This is especially true in dangerous situations, such as combat. Will the GMCs get the drop on the characters? In situations where the order of actions matter, the GM decides in what order actions are taken, based on what people are doing. She may, if she wants, use chance – rolling dice, a hand of poker, whatever – to determine who goes first in a given situation. Regardless, the GM is the final authority as to what order actions occur; they may even happen simultaneously if that suits her purposes.

Remember that the character does not know he is always going to succeed (but see the rule of "No", below). It may make sense for the character to run in certain situations, and in-character nervousness can certainly make for interesting descriptions.

That's all there is. The focus is on what the characters choose to do, not on whether or not they succeed. Like the protagonists of most heroic forms of fiction, the player characters succeed – once they figure out what to do. While the characters are doing things, the GMCs, particularly the antagonists, may be having successes of their own.

Of course, there is a little more to it than that.


Enjoy.

[Chuckg]

Or, there's a slightly more elaborate one, with dice, specialized towards 'urban fantasy' roleplaying. Think WoD motif.

http://ivanhoeunbound.com/pretender.html

A teaser segment from the die roll mechanics section -- to find out HTF you figure out how many dice to roll, click on the link and/or download the PDF they provide. :)


Take all your dice and roll them. Higher is better, most of the time. If you need a "degree of success", generally 1 and 2 are definitive failures, 3 is a mitigated failure, 4 is a bare success, and 5 and 6 are definitive successes. Most of the time you won't need this.

Now, each of the dice represents one part of what happens, and you get to decide which. If you don't have enough dice to assign a die to all four categories, assume you rolled a 1 in the category you can't cover. It can be helpful to have a mat in which a certain areas represent each category, for ease of visual reference, and you might want to put a die set to "1" in areas you didn't put a die during situations where you have less than four dice. Assign one die to each of these categories:

* Narration - This is surprisingly simple. On a 4-6, you decide who narrates. On a 1-3, the GM decides who narrates. The person chosen to narrate can be anyone, player or GM. You can chose yourself. The person so chosen cannot refuse to narrate, and describes what happens. Regardless of who describes what happens, the person doing the description has to take all the dice into account in the narration.

* Motion - If you assign a 5 or 6 die to Motion, you move decisively toward your goal. On a 3 or 4, your motion toward your goal is mixed, indifferent, misdirected, blocked, or uncertain, tending against and toward the goal respectively. On a 1 or 2, you lose ground.

* Safety - If you assign a 5 or 6 die to Safety, you're unhurt. On a 3 or 4, you're hurt, but not badly; on a 1 or 2, you're hurt badly, maybe critically. In situations that aren't deadly, "hurt" is a relative thing -- in computer hacking, it might represent someone being able to trace you, or infecting your system with a virus. For racketball, it might just represent that you've become tired. For mental and/or supernatural actions, "damage" may cause temporary or permanent insanity, or some sort of neurotic behavior. (For more on this subject, see "Adversity and Injury", below.)

* Style - If you assign a 5 or 6 die to Style, whether you succeed or fail, you do so stylishly -- you look particularly cool while doing it. On a 3 or 4, your performance is workmanlike -- nothing to write home about. On a 1 or 2, it's particularly clumsy, regardless of how effective it is. When you do something in a particularly clumsy fashion, the Adversity (see below) for your next roll is increased by one. This represents the fact that you're sort of off-balance and out-of-whack. If you keep putting a 1 or 2 in Style, the increase in Adversity does not stack -- it just applies to your next roll. You may want to put some sort of token or other indicator in front of an out-of-whack character to remind the player and GM of this Adversity.

[Chuckg]

For many many more games along this line, here's some root websites:

http://ivanhoeunbound.com/

http://memento-mori.com/

[Headhunter]

The idea of a freeform RPG is pretty cool if everyone is more interested in a compelling narrative than personal advancement; maybe I'm just unfortunate, but it's never happened for me.

[Flawless P]

Alright I know what the game is about but can somehelp me out. I was wondering if anyone here with all the books could like help me, i want to play the game so can we make this a thread where we play the game so I can get a hang of it... like full on with char creation too.

[Perry Holley]

Which D&D books do you have (and which edition)?

[Flawless P]

I actually don't have any I was hoping to see what the game was like before I fully commited myself by buying books. I have read a few of my uncles books. They are incredibly old... falling apart actually I dont know what edition they are.

[JTLauder]

No better source than straight from the horse's mouth:

What is D&D? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/whatisdnd)

Play the online demo to get an idea of the flow of the game.

If you want to look more indepthly into the components of character creation and other core mechanics of the game, the d20 SRD (the core rules from which the new D&D is based) is available online:
Revised (v.3.5) System Reference Document (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)

If you google SRD, you'll find nice formatted versions for easy viewing for both online and printed formats made by other people.

The SRD won't give you all the D&D "flavors" and atmospheric environment as the D&D books will provide, but it'll give you the foundation of the game before buying all the books.

[JTLauder]

I actually don't have any I was hoping to see what the game was like before I fully commited myself by buying books. I have read a few of my uncles books. They are incredibly old... falling apart actually I dont know what edition they are.
I'd say if they are older than 5 years (before Wizards revamped it into version 3), it's pretty old. The basic idea of D&D is still the same, but the mechanics have changed. They are convertable, but for the most part incompatible.

[Flawless P]

I'd say if they are older than 5 years (before Wizards revamped it into version 3), it's pretty old. The basic idea of D&D is still the same, but the mechanics have changed. They are convertable, but for the most part incompatible.
They are definately older than 5 years. My uncles in in his late thirties. And he has had these books since High School.

[Chuckg]

Definitely one for the "Buy It Now" category.

I could rave for hours, save that I'm a lazy typist. Instead, I'll summarize:

Mechanics -- all of the stuff from the prior 2 editions that /did/ work was kept in. All of the stuff that /didn't/ work was thrown the hell out. And what new tweaks they added all look nice as well.

Storywise -- ... well, I could have wished for a few retcons, or at least a painful humiliating death for Kaneka (or, as a good friend of mine has taught me to refer to him, 'Shogun McJerkass'), but even though they have kept the official storyline, it's still not that /bad/ a storyline. I just find a few characters in it.. distasteful.

[Perry Holley]

So, did anyone ever contact you about running a D&D game for you?

[Perry Holley]

Not quite in the same category as the stuff ChuckG mentioned, but for rules-lite stuff with the oppurtunity for lots of narrative goodness, I have a fondness for RISUS (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm). It's mainly intended for more humorous play, but can handle more serious games, as the Rough Magic (http://www.rpglibrary.org/settings/roughmagic/) demonstrates.

[nHammer]

Alright I know what the game is about but can somehelp me out. I was wondering if anyone here with all the books could like help me, i want to play the game so can we make this a thread where we play the game so I can get a hang of it... like full on with char creation too.

This is a site you may like... http://enworld.org/

[Winterwolf]

So what do you Exalted fans think about the anouncment of Exalted 2nd Edition comming out in 2006? Like, dislike? What do you think they should change if anything?

I know they said the combat system would be changed, the book would be in full color, I don't remember much else roght now. So what do you guy think about it?

[saintjon]

As long as the rules changes are geared towards smoothing things out (for games should ever strive to be less clunky) it should be good. I'm guessing they'll probably want to inject more of their meta-plot from the getgo on this one which isn't so good, but oh well.

Also, some essence 4 and 5 minimum Solar charms above and beyond the ones in the splatbooks would be welcome...

[Winterwolf]

Also, some essence 4 and 5 minimum Solar charms above and beyond the ones in the splatbooks would be welcome...

I agree with this, even though they eventually printed a few Essene 4+ charms for Solars in the Caste books, I'd like to see what a High Essence Solar is capable of doing. I mean we got some really power high end essence Charms for the Sidereal with Sidereal martial arts, I'd like to see a Solar equivilant.

Oh and I am most looking forward to a revision on the Lunar Exalted.