18 men in Nigeria face death for being Homosexual

[SkrullEmperorJason]

This is just wrong and horrible I will add the link for you all to read. I am sorry but this WILL NOT keep me from going. This only adds fuel to the fire.
http://365gay.com/Newscon07/08/081007nigeria.htm

[Samurai]

That's Sharia law for ya...

[Jack Zodiac]

Samurai's case: America ain't all that bad.

[Samurai]

Samurai's case: America ain't all that bad.

True. Here you have gay pride parades and all kinds of freedoms and protections, and the biggest concern is govt recognizing your union/marriage. There, if you come out of the closet, you're executed. Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

[Sabrinaset]

I'll haveta bookmark this site. 365gay.com? Maaan ... I have been SO far outta the loop. All I ever surf on are medical sites, mostly. What else is out there?

[the4thpip]

I'll haveta bookmark this site. 365gay.com? Maaan ... I have been SO far outta the loop. All I ever surf on are medical sites, mostly. What else is out there?

http://www.pageoneq.com/

http://planetout.com/

[JeffreyWKramer]

True. Here you have gay pride parades and all kinds of freedoms and protections, and the biggest concern is govt recognizing your union/marriage. There, if you come out of the closet, you're executed. Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

Yes, because of course if something is hugely awful, that makes less awful things okay. Like, it's okay if someone only molests a kid but isn't violent about it, or doesn't also kill the kid. And of course a single murder is okay, or even the murder of a family, because in the perspective of the Holocaust or the Cambodian genocide, that's not such a big deal.

The fact that things are even worse in many places doesn't make injustices that exist in the US a trivial or minor or okay thing.

[Samurai]

I'll haveta bookmark this site. 365gay.com? Maaan ... I have been SO far outta the loop. All I ever surf on are medical sites, mostly. What else is out there?

What I want to know is, do they change the name on a leap year, or do they just take that Feb 29th off from being gay? :)

[Jack Zodiac]

That's when they spread the gay gene.

[Pink Bat Max]

That's when they spread the gay gene.

**thinks long and hard about how that's done. Settles on porn and turkey basters**

[Pink Bat Max]

This is just wrong and horrible I will add the link for you all to read. I am sorry but this WILL NOT keep me from going. This only adds fuel to the fire.
http://365gay.com/Newscon07/08/081007nigeria.htm

In all seriousness, though, be smart and be safe while you're there. Please. Promise?

[DavidAllred]

Sincerely, that sucks.

But really what are we (the world) going to do about it? Pass a few resolutions and keep on trading. I think Iraq's situation proves that this will be true. Especially since they don't have a natural resource for us to exploit.

[Reverend Smooth]

America could lead by example.

Of course, the bigot's answer is, 'well, at least we're not STONING you, so stfu, you ungrateful gits.'

[Lester C.]

Jason you really should rethink your trip. Heaven forbid, but if something happens to you, there will be no one to help you. Nigeria is a sovereign country and the US isn't going to invade it to save you if something goes horribly wrong. You are going to be going to a country that hates you for who and what you are. Stranger in a stranger land doesn't even begin to cover it.

[DavidAllred]

America could lead by example.

Of course, the bigot's answer is, 'well, at least we're not STONING you, so stfu, you ungrateful gits.'

We ARE leading by example. Discourse, law, democracy, free speech. Just because we aren't prosecuting pastors for writing anti-gay editorials, doesn't mean we aren't leading. And even if this guy is way out of line, I'd personally rather live in a country that allows free speech and the democratic exchange of ideas than in a country forcing agendas in the absence of public discourse:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/story.html?id=e1a0feeb-e5de-4c95-ba68-a2095da41617&k=1014

There's this strange idea out there on the Left that if you're not 100% in their camp, then there is something wrong with you. It's the Spectre of Marx to quote Derrida, he just fails to mention that this ghost can only be seen with the spectacles of Mao.

[Reverend Smooth]

We ARE leading by example. Dude, the land what gave us the spanish inquisition leads more on the issue of gay rights than the US does.

[GozertheGozarian]

Even South Africa has more in gay rights than the U.S.

[Reverend Smooth]

Even South Africa has more in gay rights than the U.S.Yeah.

...I love your username.

[SkrullEmperorJason]

I did not pick Nigeria I was assigned there. Am I scared? Yes!! I am but I am going and I will just have to be careful I can be very closeted. I can take care of myself

[DavidAllred]

Dude, the land what gave us the spanish inquisition leads more on the issue of gay rights than the US does.

That doesn't change the fact that we are leading by example. We're showing countries that do not support homosexuality that a balance can be acheived in a fair and equitable way. It takes time, patience, and lots of dialogue. Leaders who hold up their "ends" as examples without demonstrating their "means" aren't really leading.

I would compare it to an Algebra teacher who puts the problem on the board, then puts the answer up without showing how to get there. That's hardly teaching. If anything we're learning from the mistakes of other countries and developing methods to guarantee gay rights while still protecting the rights of people that don't support homosexuality.

What America is doing that is of benefit to severely bigoted countries is showing that it is possible to coexist with radically different ideologies.

Consider a recent case here in Tennessee where a student participated in a national day of silence to support gay and lesbian rights. He was wrongfully suspended for it and the ACLU stepped in. But also consider that some classes factor in participation and discussion as part of the grade. Now the courts have to decide if this sort of thing is a "disruption to the school day" as previous free speech / school court cases have worked to determine. Theoretically, this student could take a day of silence at school for any number of reasons... religious, rights, or otherwise. He could even take a year of silence and thereby not participate in class.

At the end of the day, we're all going to come out with a better understanding of where these rights should be given free reign. That's looking at the issues with our eyes open, with logic, and with reason. The same is true for the group of firemen that recently had to work the gay pride parade. There was no place for them to consciencely object or to refuse to work that day. The courts are working to increase liberty in the midst of dissent. In other words, we showing the world our means, not our ends.

Countries that accept homosexuality completely don't have to deal with these kinds of problems because they never get around to asking the questions. They've traded one set of liberties for another.

[the4thpip]

We ARE leading by example. Discourse, law, democracy, free speech. Just because we aren't prosecuting pastors for writing anti-gay editorials, doesn't mean we aren't leading. And even if this guy is way out of line, I'd personally rather live in a country that allows free speech and the democratic exchange of ideas than in a country forcing agendas in the absence of public discourse:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/story.html?id=e1a0feeb-e5de-4c95-ba68-a2095da41617&k=1014

There's this strange idea out there on the Left that if you're not 100% in their camp, then there is something wrong with you. It's the Spectre of Marx to quote Derrida, he just fails to mention that this ghost can only be seen with the spectacles of Mao.
Sorry, but the definition of a leader is to be in front, and the US is way behind most European countries where gay rights are concerned, including Catholic Spain. the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, all Scandinavian countries and the UK. The good news is, the US is still ahead of Poland.

[singoalla]

Actually, not to be insulting, the US is doing very little to lead by example in the case of GLBT rights.
While countries in Europe are actively making laws guaranteeing glbt the same rights as heteros, the US is still stuck in their debates. You're not so much discussing them with eyes wide open, as you are stalling.

We're still dealing with the problems, we're not blind and we have not traded in one set of rights for another, but while we're doing that, we're guaranteeing that all of our citizens have the same rights, no matter what their prefences.

[Reverend Smooth]

Countries that accept homosexuality completely don't have to deal with these kinds of problems because they never get around to asking the questions. They've traded one set of liberties for another.Giving everyone the same rights takes freedom away from no one.

Do you actually believe the pretzel-like attempt at reasoning that you just attempted to feed me, or did you just try to insult my intelligence with all that nonsense?

Either way, I would have appreciated a logical response.

You'd think, after seeing me post around in various threads, that folks would get the idea that I don't fall for bullshit. I don't know why I have to say it so often, but I just don't, ok? No matter how many times people try, I just. Don't. So stop and save yourself a lot of typing from now on.

Oh, and what Pip said.

The US is not leading on the matter of gay rights. You trying to spin bigotry as leadership makes me giggle.

[beetlebum]

The US could be doing better. To give you an analogy, after a trip to Australia, Chuck Berry wrote the song back in the USA. He did so in response to the fact that in Australia the Aboriginals were not allowed to vote. To this very day the Australians have not ratified a treaty with the Aboriginals. It's like their version of the ERA. But back in Chuck Berry's USA Emmit Till was killed, Rosa Parks was arrested, interracial marriage was illegal and school integration was met with violent reaction. I think I can kind of see Staman's point though. True, gays are not being arrested and thrown in jail like Brian Epstein was back in the 60's. But they are still being denied their rights.

I am Catholic but I am not a strict adherent. The only doctrine i follow is Catholic social doctrine= which states "Though composed of body and soul, it is man's soul that makes him specifically human. Thus man acts and perfects himself as a person through knowledge and love. As the intellect is ordained to truth, the will moves toward the good; the human person is perfected in right actions by seeking truth and doing good. This signifies a fundamental law of human action that we call natural law. It is elevated by the law of grace." With that being said, i support civil unions and am not opposed to marriage rights for gays.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of Americans who believe America will turn into Sodom and Gomorrah lest we expand rights for gays.I find it highly embarrassing that Pierre Trudeau struck down Canada's anti sodomy laws back in the 60's, while the American supreme court waited until 2003 to strike down Texas anti-sodomy laws. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who are convinced that America has gone to hell, believing pre-civil rights America to be a gilded golden age, a bastion of morality. Obviously these people have never read Valley Of the Dolls or the Basketball Diaries or The Fifties by David Halberstam and come to the epiphany that people have always been "immoral" the only difference between now and then is that religion was much more visceral in those days.But they are firmly intransigent in their opposition to "somdomy" because they believe God will lift his protection from America (I know this because I used to be friends with evangelicals)

With that being said Nigeria has a lot of problems. Back in 2003 AMINA LAWAL was set to be stoned to death on 3RD JUNE 2003. Her case was eventually appealed.At least 200 people died in riots that erupted after after a newspaper suggested the Prophet Mohammed would have approved of the Miss World beauty contest back in 2002.Sharia as the foundation of the legal system returned -- with its harsh penalties -- back in 2000, after Nigeria's military dictatorship fell.Transparency Internationale's 2003 Corruption Perceptions Index ranked Nigeria as the second most corrupt nation in the world. That could explain why despite the$40 billion dollars in revenue annually the country is underdeveloped.

If you want to help out Jason then go. Coincidentally I have a friend who wants to be a missionary to Iran. I worry about her safety, proselytizers over there are jailed and beaten.

[DavidAllred]

Giving everyone the same rights takes freedom away from no one.

Do you actually believe the pretzel-like attempt at reasoning that you just attempted to feed me, or did you just try to insult my intelligence with all that nonsense?

Either way, I would have appreciated a logical response.

You'd think, after seeing me post around in various threads, that folks would get the idea that I don't fall for bullshit. I don't know why I have to say it so often, but I just don't, ok? No matter how many times people try, I just. Don't. So stop and save yourself a lot of typing from now on.

Oh, and what Pip said.

The US is not leading on the matter of gay rights. You trying to spin bigotry as leadership makes me giggle.

In spite of the unpleasant response which turned quickly from the issue to me personally, I am more than willing to let it drop if you prefer. It's probably not the place for it. Continuing is neither beneficial to us, nor the gay/lesbian struggle.

[Reverend Smooth]

In spite of the unpleasant response which turned quickly from the issue to me personally,When you speak dishonestly to someone, what kind of response do you expect? It's not my job to accomodate your spinning of the facts, and if you don't like being called out on it, the answer is simple: don't do it.

And appealing to me or others won't work. Your martyr act doesn't influence my response. There is nothing you can do that will make me respond pleasantly to bullshit beyond apologising and not doing it again. Is that understood?

If you want to whine about it, whine to someone else. I don't care about the feelings of people who lie and I don't care about the responses of the people who defend folks who lie.

Just because YABS is unmoderated doesn't mean that I am obligated to be your doormat. If you can't respond to me without spouting bullshit, you will have plenty more to whine about.

[Cam63]

This is just wrong and horrible I will add the link for you all to read. I am sorry but this WILL NOT keep me from going. This only adds fuel to the fire.
http://365gay.com/Newscon07/08/081007nigeria.htm

Fucking bastards.

[Shoestring]

In some parts of that country rebels are kidnapping foriegners and holding them for ransom (Happens in other countries as well). Anyway since the U.S doesn't pay ransoms you are SOL dude if they take you. Anyway I think you are brave for going there. Good luck.

[Shoestring]

Dude, the land what gave us the spanish inquisition leads more on the issue of gay rights than the US does.

The Spanish like other western european countries have dwindling birthrates. And they are not being replaced by liberals.

[Reverend Smooth]

The trend in spain has been that newer generations are more progressive, actually. I was really surprised.

[Spike-X]

The Spanish like other western european countries have dwindling birthrates. And they are not being replaced by liberals.
What's your point?

[Spike-X]

That doesn't change the fact that we are leading by example. We're showing countries that do not support homosexuality that a balance can be acheived in a fair and equitable way. It takes time, patience, and lots of dialogue. Leaders who hold up their "ends" as examples without demonstrating their "means" aren't really leading.

I would compare it to an Algebra teacher who puts the problem on the board, then puts the answer up without showing how to get there. That's hardly teaching. If anything we're learning from the mistakes of other countries and developing methods to guarantee gay rights while still protecting the rights of people that don't support homosexuality.

What America is doing that is of benefit to severely bigoted countries is showing that it is possible to coexist with radically different ideologies.

Consider a recent case here in Tennessee where a student participated in a national day of silence to support gay and lesbian rights. He was wrongfully suspended for it and the ACLU stepped in. But also consider that some classes factor in participation and discussion as part of the grade. Now the courts have to decide if this sort of thing is a "disruption to the school day" as previous free speech / school court cases have worked to determine. Theoretically, this student could take a day of silence at school for any number of reasons... religious, rights, or otherwise. He could even take a year of silence and thereby not participate in class.

At the end of the day, we're all going to come out with a better understanding of where these rights should be given free reign. That's looking at the issues with our eyes open, with logic, and with reason. The same is true for the group of firemen that recently had to work the gay pride parade. There was no place for them to consciencely object or to refuse to work that day. The courts are working to increase liberty in the midst of dissent. In other words, we showing the world our means, not our ends.

Countries that accept homosexuality completely don't have to deal with these kinds of problems because they never get around to asking the questions. They've traded one set of liberties for another.

So what rights are being traded when gay people are granted equal rights? The "rights" of other people to be bigoted homophobes?

Boo fucking hoo to them.

[the4thpip]

What's your point?

A conclusion from what he says would be that Spain is now full of conservatives who support full marriage equality for gays and lesbians.


Yeah I know. Seems he doesn't have a point.

[singoalla]

The trend in spain has been that newer generations are more progressive, actually. I was really surprised.

This is the trend all over Europe. We want information and we want it fast. We don't give a crap about what "you" do in your bedroom as long as you contribute to society. Younger generations have taken their parents history and formed their own opinions.

In essence:

Dwindling birthrates (you call 2.1 kids dwindling?) vs. more mobile population, rise in immigration, and trade thanks to agreements all over europe.
Less liberalism (and we must be speaking of a different europe..) vs progression, political activism, increase in atheism and agnosticism coupled with a more humanitarian outlook and equal rights for all our citizens.

[Reverend Smooth]

This is the trend all over Europe. We want information and we want it fast. We don't give a crap about what "you" do in your bedroom as long as you contribute to society. Younger generations have taken their parents history and formed their own opinions.

In essence:

Dwindling birthrates (you call 2.1 kids dwindling?) vs. more mobile population, rise in immigration, and trade thanks to agreements all over europe.
Less liberalism (and we must be speaking of a different europe..) vs progression, political activism, increase in atheism and agnosticism coupled with a more humanitarian outlook and equal rights for all our citizens.Sounds good to me. ^_^

[DavidAllred]

When you speak dishonestly to someone, what kind of response do you expect? It's not my job to accomodate your spinning of the facts, and if you don't like being called out on it, the answer is simple: don't do it.

And appealing to me or others won't work. Your martyr act doesn't influence my response. There is nothing you can do that will make me respond pleasantly to bullshit beyond apologising and not doing it again. Is that understood?

If you want to whine about it, whine to someone else. I don't care about the feelings of people who lie and I don't care about the responses of the people who defend folks who lie.

Just because YABS is unmoderated doesn't mean that I am obligated to be your doormat. If you can't respond to me without spouting bullshit, you will have plenty more to whine about.

Wow. The really sad thing is that is that this sort of behavior in open dialogue is deemed "progressive."

We can summarize it very simply:

1. People with alternative viewpoints to your own are a) dishonest; b) fact spinners; c) underserving of pleasantry; d) bullshitters; e) liars, f) whiners; g) out to make the Reverend Smooth their doormat.

2. A sincere discussion regarding the challenges of gay rights here and abroad is most likely not going to happen with you posting in this manner.

As to an apology, I'll only say that I'm sorry you feel like I'm trying to make you a doormat by expressing my opinions on the matter. I also regret believing that you'd be able to carry on a conversation objectively. I'd also apologize for this particular post of mine, which is in fact personal and the only one aimed away from the issue and sent squarely at you.

I'll be stepping out now.

[the4thpip]

1. People with alternative viewpoints to your own are a) dishonest; b) fact spinners; c) underserving of pleasantry; d) bullshitters; e) liars, f) whiners; g) out to make the Reverend Smooth their doormat.

.

Actually, no. As we've gone over in the politics thread a few dozen times, only the people with alternative viewpoints who lie are those things.

[Reverend Smooth]

I'll be stepping out now.Good riddance. (And thanks, Pip!)

[Shoestring]

This is the trend all over Europe. We want information and we want it fast. We don't give a crap about what "you" do in your bedroom as long as you contribute to society. Younger generations have taken their parents history and formed their own opinions.

In essence:

Dwindling birthrates (you call 2.1 kids dwindling?) vs. more mobile population, rise in immigration, and trade thanks to agreements all over europe.
Less liberalism (and we must be speaking of a different europe..) vs progression, political activism, increase in atheism and agnosticism coupled with a more humanitarian outlook and equal rights for all our citizens.

According to the CIA World Factbook Spain has a total fertility rate of 1.29 children born/woman (2007 est.), Sweden's total fertility rate is 1.66, Germany is 1.4, UK is 1.66.

The US is 2.09 children born/woman (2007 est.), Argentina is 2.13, Mexico is 2.39, Egypt is 2.77.

Spain: 9.98 births/1,000 population (2007 est.)
Sweden: 10.2
Germany: 8.2
United Kingdom: 10.67
United States: 14.16
Argentina: 16.53
Mexico: 20.36
Egypt: 22.53

From Eurostat: "The total fertility rate is also used to indicate the replacement level fertility; in more developed countries, a rate of 2.1 is considered to be replacement level."
Total Fertility Rate: (2005)
Spain: 1.35
Sweden: 1.77
UK: 1.78



Note: I didn't mean to imply that this is the fault of liberals and if progressives are increasing then it is a good thing and "dwindling" may have been too strong a word to use.

[Shoestring]

What's your point?

I forgot :(

[Spike-X]

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/811/iwsxy4.jpg

[BnL]

Heh. That is awesome, Spike.

[Hybrid2]

HAHAHAHA

So funny.

[singoalla]

According to the CIA World Factbook Spain has a total fertility rate of 1.29 children born/woman (2007 est.), Sweden's total fertility rate is 1.66, Germany is 1.4, UK is 1.66.

The US is 2.09 children born/woman (2007 est.), Argentina is 2.13, Mexico is 2.39, Egypt is 2.77.

Spain: 9.98 births/1,000 population (2007 est.)
Sweden: 10.2
Germany: 8.2
United Kingdom: 10.67
United States: 14.16
Argentina: 16.53
Mexico: 20.36
Egypt: 22.53

From Eurostat: "The total fertility rate is also used to indicate the replacement level fertility; in more developed countries, a rate of 2.1 is considered to be replacement level."
Total Fertility Rate: (2005)
Spain: 1.35
Sweden: 1.77
UK: 1.78


Note: I didn't mean to imply that this is the fault of liberals and if progressives are increasing then it is a good thing and "dwindling" may have been too strong a word to use.


O_O You... you... you confused me with NUMBERS!!!

But yes, the birthrates are no longer 2.1 for every country, and I really can't speak for any other than sweden. Women here have children later in life. The average is about 30-31, and still others have kids as late as 35-40, choosing a good education and career before having kids. It's a calculated decision. But then again, more couples adopt, gays can marry and have children, and we have a steady rate of immigration.

Viva cross-country relations! (not the skiing kind!) :D

[singoalla]

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/811/iwsxy4.jpg

*snicker*

I'm getting that on a t-shirt.

[Gail Simone]

Sorry, but the definition of a leader is to be in front, and the US is way behind most European countries where gay rights are concerned, including Catholic Spain. the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, all Scandinavian countries and the UK. The good news is, the US is still ahead of Poland.

I believe we are hampered in almost every way by the massive power and intimidation factor of the religious right. Nothing is stopping us from being the country I believe we could be more than the zealots who want only their religion recognized and only their rigid nonsensical beliefs enforced.

When you travel elsewhere or talk to others from modern countries, they are baffled by the hand religion still has in politics here.


Gail

[Gail Simone]

Good information, Beetlebum, thank you.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

I would ask that people stay civil. I realize some people here have more at stake , perhaps, than others, but nothing's every going to change if people can't have a discussion.

I will add, though, I don't see in any way how America is 'leading' on gay rights. That seems very unlike what is really the case.

In what way are we actually 'leading?'

Gail

[the4thpip]

Well, he didn't say anything about what direction the US are leading in. :D

[Cam63]

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/811/iwsxy4.jpg

Fuckin' brilliant...

[Cam63]

Well, he didn't say anything about what direction the US are leading in. :D

Yeah, it doesn't have to be a positive thing.

[singoalla]

I believe we are hampered in almost every way by the massive power and intimidation factor of the religious right. Nothing is stopping us from being the country I believe we could be more than the zealots who want only their religion recognized and only their rigid nonsensical beliefs enforced.

When you travel elsewhere or talk to others from modern countries, they are baffled by the hand religion still has in politics here.

Gail

I'm a firm believer in everyone's right to believe what they will, be that Muhammad, Kali or God. Or nothing. But state and church should always remain separate, and despite the fact that the US started out that way, it's just gone the complete opposite.
Strange.
And I can't help but wonder why that is. Most surprising however, is the fact that more and more people are making comparisons between middle eastern islamic states and the US. At least as far as religious zealots go.

Because really, what's the difference between Bush saying they'll win the war on terror with God's help, and the Ayatollah saying they'll win the jihad with Muhammad's help?

[Cam63]

What about " For Beer's sake ? "

[GozertheGozarian]

Too broad, you have to pick a beer that's worthy of being an expletive. Something like "For the love of Foster's."

[Cam63]

Fosters aint the worst beer I've tasted.

[GozertheGozarian]

Yeah, it's better than Sam Adams or Guiness at least.

[DavidAllred]

I would ask that people stay civil. I realize some people here have more at stake , perhaps, than others, but nothing's every going to change if people can't have a discussion.

I will add, though, I don't see in any way how America is 'leading' on gay rights. That seems very unlike what is really the case.

In what way are we actually 'leading?'

Gail

K, I'm back for second.

I think its ironic that immediately after having this online discussion, I am now having to deal with a real life religious zealot who is making veiled threats at our church for not "fighting the good fight" against homosexuals.

God has a way of winking at us I think.

Personally, I do believe we are leading in that unlike countries that don't fight as much over these kinds of things, we do. It's about a threshold for me. We have some very core ideological differences in this country that create a greater threshold of tolerance to overcome. It's easy to point to countries that lack this threshold and call them leaders. But in countries with a higih level of intolerance, the example of these lower threshold nations gets lost.

I'm trying to think of good methaphor to convey my thoughts, but its hard to come by. I had friend once who became a Mennonite. He and his family of five moved to an isolated farm where they refuse all modern technologies. I remember when he visited me shortly after moving there with his three children. Our television was on and his three children literally sat two feet away from it with their eyes glued. My two kids wanted to play, but they wouldn't budge. My kids had a higher threshold for television's amazing power to sway than his two kids did. I would submit that his children are less equipped to deal with the realities of life than are mine.

With little dissent comes little opportunity for genuine dialogue about why people hold the views they hold. Again, it's my opinion, but America leads by demonstrating to the world that genuine dialogue and coexistence is possible, even in places with severe ideological differences. Because of this, at the end of the day, we'll come out stronger-- I really believe that. Because our threshold for ideological differences is higher.

Again, it's easy for me to feel this way, but two examples -- one in this very thread demonstrating a low threshold for ideological differences, and the other from the opposite extreme of a whacko threatening my church-- leads me to believe maybe we aren't nearly as tolerant as my naveity would believe.

[Reverend Smooth]

If you're referring to me, I would appreciate it if you dropped the canard of, 'you're intolerant of ideological differences'.

It's not the ideological differences with you that were my problem with what you said in this topic. It's how you framed them. Cognitively dissonant arguments are inherently dishonest, whether you intend them to be that way or no.

[JeffreyWKramer]

If you're referring to me, I would appreciate it if you dropped the canard of, 'you're intolerant of ideological differences'.

It's not the ideological differences with you that were my problem with what you said in this topic. It's how you framed them. Cognitively dissonant arguments are inherently dishonest, whether you intend them to be that way or no.

Rev, I honestly do not think there's any good reason to assume he was referring to you in that post.

[Reverend Smooth]

Rev, I honestly do not think there's any good reason to assume he was referring to you in that post.We had the biggest disagreement, so I figured it was plausible, and I prefer to be criticised for my actual motives if that was the case.

[GozertheGozarian]

I think he's talking about the woman in another thread that wants him to actively attack homosexuality.

[Reverend Smooth]

If that's the case, then no problem. I thought he was referring to both incidents.

[DavidAllred]

Cognitively dissonant arguments are inherently dishonest, whether you intend them to be that way or no.

I'm still going to post later tonight that of the YABSters here, I appreciate you because I do admire your passion and from what I've gathered, you're tenacity in the face of illness. You remind me of my favorite comic hero, Oliver Queen. I admire people who take bold stances for just causes and from what I've seen, you do just that.

Nevertheless, the irony my current situation is that I did in fact face both ends of the spectrum in the same 24 hour time span, in that rather than discuss my deemed "cognitive dissonance," you took a square aim at me in the above post. Even now a restated argument rests above (the majority of which is untouched) and yet here we are still talking about you and me, of which I am more than willing to share the blame.

I really have a distaste for people who agree to bow out of threads, but then return. In this case, I've broken my word twice and I still believe that its better for me to wait for calmer seas before launching another post.

Until then, you do in fact have my respect although you may not want it at all. I will detail my appreciation of you in the other thread later tonight.

Ciao,

Stamen

[Reverend Smooth]

Nevertheless, the irony my current situation is that I did in fact face both ends of the spectrum in the same 24 hour time span, in that rather than discuss my deemed "cognitive dissonance," you took a square aim at me in the above post.The problem is that I honestly would prefer not to argue at all, and would just rather be friends with everyone; the problem is that I feel that, in not squarely aiming at the root of the problem -- a fatally flawed argument is a waste of time to discuss, and the cause for it being the poster who is willing to post such stuff -- then I'm simply enabling the problem to continue.

I appreciate your good regard, but I also don't feel that it's acceptable for people to present things which are not true, regardless of whether it's out of malice or a mistaken belief.

Further, it's somewhat insulting to ask someone to believe that holding back on human rights is 'leading'. That may not be the intended result, but there it is.

Unfortunately, here goes, and I really feel like I'm being had just for even saying these things:

Religious folks -- and I'm clergy too, mind you -- are entitled to their religious opinions. However, it's not a healthy debate to deny one part of the population specific rights and privileges while offering them to others, especially in the US when it's because of religious beliefs.

Trying to present that as leadership comes off as disingenuous. Not everything has an equal side. The argument that blacks and whites should not intermarry is ridiculous, even though all the same arguments against it are the same ones against gay marriage.

I mean, I can point to scripture and say, 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.' 'Take the plank out of your own eye,' etc, etc. There is no legitimate basis for christian sinners -- and we're all sinners -- to point fingers at gays. Not after Jesus came along. 'Love your neighbor.' 'Love your enemy.' 'Don't judge.' These things are not optional. These things, Jesus' repeated message, lies at the very heart of christianity, though you rarely hear it in the US.

Anti-gay policy springs out of the hatred that crazy chick at your church spouts. Let that woman think it. But give gays their rights.

Condemnation of homosexual marriage and behavior is hypocritical.

I will go further: according to the things which Jesus tells christians to do, it is not moral. And presenting the current state of affairs as leadership is false. Christians need to free themselves of sin before they cast aspersions on the actions of their brothers and sisters. That is scripturally-backed. That is not even a matter of opinion, those are words out of Jesus' own mouth.

So, without the backing of Christ, how can Christians justify the judgement, condemnation, and discrimination against their fellow sinners? How can THAT be part of reasonable discourse? The New Testament does indeed, in several places, contradict the old-- stating otherwise is literally not believing the words in front of your eyes. And the New Testament, Christ's Testament, is what goes.

The response I often hear after I say this, which is usually ignored or dismissed, is, 'But it's still a sin so I can't vote for gay marriage!'

Then stay home. If you're concerned about their souls, pray for them instead, and stop micromanaging someone else's sins when y'all have your own to deal with.

So I appreciate your kind words to me, but I strongly also feel that there is a disconnect in logic. And when people cling to such logical constructs, nothing I can say ever makes a difference. There's no point. If people were going to see reality, they'd've seen it before anything I wank on about is said. And you're a minister, you said-- you have access to the same books I do.

Edit: And it's not tenacity in the face of illness. It's just fear.