World War Hulk: Aftersmash

[Kevinroc]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=124802

Here are the Hulk tidbits from the Mondo Marvel panel from Wizard World Chicago.

- World War Hulk rages on, and it was announced that there will be follow up books under the banner WWH: Aftersmash.

- “Hulk, Cap, Nova, Thor, Is there anyone who hasn’t made Tony Stark their bitch?” drew a lot of laughter. “Wait and See” was the canned response.

- World War Hulk was supposed to be the big summer event last year, and Civil War was brought up at the end of the summit, so they re-arranged it, and that’s how Planet Hulk was born.

- The perennial favorite of Ultimate Hulk/Wolverine came up, and the last two issues’ scripts are in, and it won’t be published again until they’re complete, same with the second Ultimate Iron Man miniseries.

And because it apparently drew some laughs from the crowd...

- Laughs abounded when a fan accidentally said Tony Stark “infected” She-Hulk.

[CMBMOOL]

WOO-HOO!!! :D


You know I'm happy to see that the after effects of WWH will be felt in the Marvel Universe. :p

[Magneto Rocks]

Right... somehow I'm doubting the Aftersmash effects on non-IH will not be minor- particularly considering Iron Man is already back on track without such a banner. I can't see NEw Avengers getting one when it's on full Skrull track but it's the only Strange book... hmmm...

Yeah, any sort of major effects outside IH, I'll believe it when I see it.

Although two things are clarified
A) The fan who talked about Tony CLEARLY didn't read the Nova issue in question and-
B) Yup, that's basically the confirmation of what we suspected- World War Hulk was the idea Bendis, Hitch and Millar thought was a pretty bad story thus partially leading to the development of civil war. Of course the story's evolved since then but... can't say that's particularly surprising given how little they comment on it.

[aut0matic]

well at the very least, the avengers need a new hangout..

[Kevinroc]

Yup, that's basically the confirmation of what we suspected- World War Hulk was the idea Bendis, Hitch and Millar thought was a pretty bad story thus partially leading to the development of civil war. Of course the story's evolved since then but... can't say that's particularly surprising given how little they comment on it.

WWH (or what became WWH) was originally supposed to be part of Civil War. Go read Brevoort's blog to see some of the earliest outlines. Bendis has commented on WWH a bit (and said nice things about it, even before WWH was officially announced [where he basically referred to it as Hulk's return to Earth as the title wasn't officially announced]).

I do think it explains a number of elements of Planet Hulk. Those first few issues moved fast and then the pacing slowed down quite a bit.

I do wonder how the Marvel Universe would be different if we had WWH last year and Civil War this year.

[rZi]

WOO-HOO!!! :D


You know I'm happy to see that the after effects of WWH will be felt in the Marvel Universe. :p

I really doubt that unfortunatley...to use the words "world war" was a great mistake....if anything they should call it "hulk smashes a few heros in new york" oh wait...thats been done numerous times before.

[tavella]

I do wonder how the Marvel Universe would be different if we had WWH last year and Civil War this year.

We wouldn't have enjoyed watching Iron Man get pounded through Stark Tower half as much?

[Bulky Brent]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=124802

Here are the Hulk tidbits from the Mondo Marvel panel from Wizard World Chicago.

- World War Hulk rages on, and it was announced that there will be follow up books under the banner WWH: Aftersmash.
Follow up books? I don't see why they simply just can't put add the After/Aftersmash in the main books this just means more money out of my pocket.Also will there be a WWH:Aftersmash for all the MU books like they did for WWH? I can see Iron Man and Mighty Avengers and New Avengers getting their own individual Aftersmash title but I don't know about the rest.

[aut0matic]

I really doubt that unfortunatley...to use the words "world war" was a great mistake....if anything they should call it "hulk smashes a few heros in new york" oh wait...thats been done numerous times before.


a few heroes? more like every hero to get within arm's reach of him..

[CMBMOOL]

I really doubt that unfortunatley...to use the words "world war" was a great mistake....if anything they should call it "hulk smashes a few heros in new york" oh wait...thats been done numerous times before.

Like I stated it before there are some heroes within this event who represent the more fictional contries of Wakanada and Atlatis, but that is all I can think of for now. :o

[CMBMOOL]

Follow up books? I don't see why they simply just can't put add the After/Aftersmash in the main books this just means more money out of my pocket.Also will there be a WWH:Aftersmash for all the MU books like they did for WWH? I can see Iron Man and Mighty Avengers and New Avengers getting their own individual Aftersmash title but I don't know about the rest.


Don't forget the She-Hulk title, since legendary Hulk writer PAD is doing the series in the Post WWH world. :o

[Spider-Sense]

World War Hulk: Aftersmash. I like the name.

[Hrungr]

World War Hulk: Aftersmash. I like the name.
Well... I'm sorry to have to tell you then that "Aftersmash" was just a joke - it's actually called "Hulk: Against the World." (according to... CBR!)

[Magneto Rocks]

WWH (or what became WWH) was originally supposed to be part of Civil War. Go read Brevoort's blog to see some of the earliest outlines. Bendis has commented on WWH a bit (and said nice things about it, even before WWH was officially announced [where he basically referred to it as Hulk's return to Earth as the title wasn't officially announced]).

I do think it explains a number of elements of Planet Hulk. Those first few issues moved fast and then the pacing slowed down quite a bit.

I do wonder how the Marvel Universe would be different if we had WWH last year and Civil War this year.

No though, it wasn't originally supposed to be part of Civil War. As it says quite clearly there, it was originally the 2006 crossover. Then Civil War came in, and it changed to Civil War with the Hulk returning at the end. Then Hulk returning was postponed a year.

Initially, WWH was the 2006 crossover, and Bendis, Millar and Hitch all disliked the idea and felt it wasn't good enough, so they began discussing their own idea, which led tot hte implementation of Civil War. The story's been told a hundred times but Millar, Bendis and Hitch always refused to say what the original story they disliked was for fear of offending the creator. But this and other evidence makes it pretty clear it was World War Hulk.

[redhulk]

No though, it wasn't originally supposed to be part of Civil War. As it says quite clearly there, it was originally the 2006 crossover. Then Civil War came in, and it changed to Civil War with the Hulk returning at the end. Then Hulk returning was postponed a year.

Initially, WWH was the 2006 crossover, and Bendis, Millar and Hitch all disliked the idea and felt it wasn't good enough, so they began discussing their own idea, which led tot hte implementation of Civil War. The story's been told a hundred times but Millar, Bendis and Hitch always refused to say what the original story they disliked was for fear of offending the creator. But this and other evidence makes it pretty clear it was World War Hulk.

Phew..and thanks to that we had the stinkfest that was Civil war....

I wonder if bendis was just helping Millar out with all the awful characterisations by making the Skrull thing happen..

If you ask me the bendis, hitch and millar are like the illumaniti, no doubt great hero's in their own right, but add them all together and....

Millar is an over excited ideas man, great ideas at that, but all sizzle forget the plot. so hmmmm i'd put him down as Ironman in the Illumanati

Bendis, has to be blackbolt...for the irony

Hitch? Dc strange, no doubting his magic but just when you really need him where is he?


and then they go and shoot off the poor WWH story into space...

And now its come back to haunt them all by giving as all a nice big dose of insanity and kick assness that is comics and after this when we are all tired out of hulk kicking everones ass get back to some real great stories!!


yay hulk



*please note no icons were used in the creation of this post

[Magneto Rocks]

Guess it's to each his own then because I'd take Ultimate Fantastic Four, The Ultimates, Ultimate X-Men, Marvel Knights Spider-Man, Civil War, The Authority and pretty much anything Millar's written short of "Trouble" , not to mention NEw Avengers, Mighty Avengers, Daredevil, Ultimate Spider-Man- over House of M Iron man, Planet Hulk or World War Hulk any day. Not that the latter are bad (Well, okay, House of M Iron man was) but just that all the former are far, far better, in my opinion of course.

And I think Civil War is so far out of WWH's league words alone cannot describe it. I still prefer CW4, the worst issue of that series, by a country mile to WWH1, the best issue of this series.

[Xanrn]

Probably be another Gamma Corps mini.

A Warbound Mini.

Maybe a Renegade mini.

[redhulk]

Guess it's to each his own then because I'd take Ultimate Fantastic Four, The Ultimates, Ultimate X-Men, Marvel Knights Spider-Man, Civil War, The Authority and pretty much anything Millar's written short of "Trouble" , not to mention NEw Avengers, Mighty Avengers, Daredevil, Ultimate Spider-Man- over House of M Iron man, Planet Hulk or World War Hulk any day. Not that the latter are bad (Well, okay, House of M Iron man was) but just that all the former are far, far better, in my opinion of course.

Well horses for courses....Gotta say used to be a millar fan, the rush from the initial authority and ultimates....wow...what a rush...

Then....slowly, it started to creak, even the patented Millardrine thhat pumps though your body when he starts speaking starts to not give the same kick.

Fantastic four wow what a blast, those zombies...but ...but...Namor? That invention where reed can just make things outta thin air? out of THIN AIR....anything ANYTHING AT ALL...i mean...ok, now we see he is an ideas guy and just go for the triple espresso kick and plot lines be damned.

And then ultimates, the last issues c'mon you have to have a mothers love to not say they were not up there...now don't get me wrong, ultimates in both inception and product is way higher than WWH but ultimates is a very specific book for a specific market.

I showed my GF Hulk and you know its an old fashioned blast which millar was attempting with FF, if half the crap millar wrote

(and i mean crap in the truest and nicest sense as in pure comic crap in the finest traditions crap that take a good writer to really bring out with a flourish)

If half that crap was in WWH hulk you would be having fits, if Hulk pulled out a machine that created things out of thin air powered by his planets tech and wiped out strange you would probably be on the floor frothing at the mouth, yet if millar writes it the cerebral masses laugh at the in joke or it all.

Yet my GF could get into WWH as it was easy to get into, didn't pretend to be more and wasn't attempting to be more, unless you want to look if you know your comics.

Ultimates WAS aimed at the more cerebral, tarrintino style crowd not the classic avengers assemble lot, it took a lot to win the fans of the 'i say thee nay) lot over. Honestly it was my pride and joy yet if i showed it to non 30 somethings it was like...oooh thats wordy and a bit dull.

Im like HUH dull...DULL..its its...a classic. ..then im like...well yeah it is if you want processed lets get into it action as that was a work of love but who wants art house when you have bruce willis?

So WWH to me is much more a comics comic so far, it give us what we want, hulk smashing, heros clashing and a damn good reason to go woooooooooh

The ultimate line is almost dead now and WWH and ironically bendis and co's take is buidling on a helluva lot more love for the 616 universe than the now defunct ultimate line.

Honestly after the Ultimates it kinda died, you really like Ultimate vision? You loved the recent xmen snore fests? over this? And then civil war?

I read that, i wanted to like it, i collected it all, it remains and will remain the unloved comic sealed in a bag, after reading it, it was such a depressing and pointless ending and overall annoying exercise, a few great moments of Cap doing stuff but too many people being all forced into the ultimate world (as this is what was really its purpose to bridge that gap)

WWH brings back the 616 comic world BACK, heros aren't making political analogy to to homeland security in america after 9/11 which was clearly millars take and many others writers take...
Sure you can see some of that in WWH such as the take on American imperilism and arrogance to other nations (eg alien) and it coming back to bite them...but seriously that is only if you really really wanna look
Civil war might as well had we hate bush written all over it...now regardless of if i agree with that or not, that was my downer with civil war, i prefer that message in the ultimates and ultimate lines, i like the 616 with a liberal dose of cheese and spandex but still relevant and edgy when needed...


And I think Civil War is so far out of WWH's league words alone cannot describe it. I still prefer CW4, the worst issue of that series, by a country mile to WWH1, the best issue of this series.

No, Civil war is an entirely different beast with different aims, its like comparing Secret wars with Ultimate secret wars, one was a crazy stupid cheesy affair that was a great ride the other was a moody broody politically motivated and DREARY piece of dross...

Civil war was well written in that it was a piece to create a change but as a story it was clunky and not something you read to give you that comic kick. Its more a historians piece than a comics lovers read.

So ok you go for that...and thats fine but try to look at WWH for what it is within the frame work of getting marvel AWAY from the total ultimatarisation of civil war.

Marvel were really getting into a kind of cul de sac of darkness after civl war, and although they are exploring it still with new avengers i love the fact the sheer CHEESYNESS of skrulls and stupidty of all that is the driving force behind it rather than a political system of pro registration which with one gamma powered foot is totally *(^*# irrelevant....


Thank Hulk for that...


Eyes do a strange acton that is nothing like a roll..NOTHING like a roll.....more stoic...with a strange alluring quality about it....

[Magneto Rocks]

Well horses for courses....Gotta say used to be a millar fan, the rush from the initial authority and ultimates....wow...what a rush...

Then....slowly, it started to creak, even the patented Millardrine thhat pumps though your body when he starts speaking starts to not give the same kick.

Fantastic four wow what a blast, those zombies...but ...but...Namor? That invention where reed can just make things outta thin air? out of THIN AIR....anything ANYTHING AT ALL...i mean...ok, now we see he is an ideas guy and just go for the triple espresso kick and plot lines be damned.

Yeah but... he's Reed Richards. If you've read any silver age 616 Reed stuff, that's not a stretch at all, no pun intended.

And then ultimates, the last issues c'mon you have to have a mothers love to not say they were not up there...now don't get me wrong, ultimates in both inception and product is way higher than WWH but ultimates is a very specific book for a specific market.

No, I really can. It's all down to opinion and the climatic battle of the Ultimates 2 is possibly my favourite giant fight in the history of comics, right up there with JLA/Avengers #4.

And a colossal advantage the Ultimates enjoys over WWH is that the whole way through, you don't know who lives and who dies and who will win which fight, even if you know the good guys will win in the end. But in World War Hulk, it's hard to get in any way excited by fights when you know it's jusdt a question of how much Hulk wins by- 99% of the time just by smashing or jobbing.

I showed my GF Hulk and you know its an old fashioned blast which millar was attempting with FF, if half the crap millar wrote

(and i mean crap in the truest and nicest sense as in pure comic crap in the finest traditions crap that take a good writer to really bring out with a flourish)

If half that crap was in WWH hulk you would be having fits, if Hulk pulled out a machine that created things out of thin air powered by his planets tech and wiped out strange you would probably be on the floor frothing at the mouth, yet if millar writes it the cerebral masses laugh at the in joke or it all.

Well yes, but I think there's a difference between Hulk creating a machine and Reed Richards creating the same machine. ;)

Yet my GF could get into WWH as it was easy to get into, didn't pretend to be more and wasn't attempting to be more, unless you want to look if you know your comics.

I'd have about 6 less friends reading comics if it weren't for good old Civil War.

Ultimates WAS aimed at the more cerebral, tarrintino style crowd not the classic avengers assemble lot, it took a lot to win the fans of the 'i say thee nay) lot over. Honestly it was my pride and joy yet if i showed it to non 30 somethings it was like...oooh thats wordy and a bit dull.

Really? Can't say the same here, everyone I've shown THe Ultimates to has loved it as a kickass book which combines art as good as World War Hulk, dialogue and plotting ten times better, more in depth characterization, actual character development, unpredictability, and- this one's kinda sad, al things considered- action which can blow WWH out of the water.

Im like HUH dull...DULL..its its...a classic. ..then im like...well yeah it is if you want processed lets get into it action as that was a work of love but who wants art house when you have bruce willis?

So WWH to me is much more a comics comic so far, it give us what we want, hulk smashing, heros clashing and a damn good reason to go woooooooooh

I... I find it pretty hard to believe anyone can even try to make a case that any of the battles in World War Hulk can match up to the Ultimates versus Hulk, the ultimates versus Thor, or the climatic battles of either Ultimates volume. I just can't see it. The most "Whoah" moment of WWH for me was the destruction of Stark Tower, but that was before I'd filly adjusted myself to exactly how mindless and big WWH was going to be. As opposed to The Ultimates where I'm doing it every 2 or 3 pages at the finale of each volume.

Hell even now I compare them in my mind. Am I supposed to find the Hulk SCARY in WWH? I think I am to a degree but yeah, I've already seen "Hero kicks other heroes asses because of a misunderstanding" done better with Ultimate Thor, I've already seen New York trashed and The Liberators came across as fifty times the threat Hulk has so far without jobbing once.

The ultimate line is almost dead now and WWH and ironically bendis and co's take is buidling on a helluva lot more love for the 616 universe than the now defunct ultimate line.

Honestly after the Ultimates it kinda died, you really like Ultimate vision? You loved the recent xmen snore fests? over this? And then civil war?

Not recent ultimate x-men, I'm talking the first 36 awesome issues of Ultimate X-Men. Which yes, I do like better than this.

I read that, i wanted to like it, i collected it all, it remains and will remain the unloved comic sealed in a bag, after reading it, it was such a depressing and pointless ending and overall annoying exercise, a few great moments of Cap doing stuff but too many people being all forced into the ultimate world (as this is what was really its purpose to bridge that gap)

No, it wasn't an "ultimisation" at all except in terms of realism. But for me, Civil War is the gold standard I'll compare other events to. It had emotion, drama, characterization, action- sure, Cap vs Iron Man from 3 may not be anywhere near as big as Hulk and Iron Man blowing up the New York skyline, but the weight and force of the build-up, the history of the two, the emotions fuelling it mean that page and a half of battle means more, carries more weight than 3 non stop issues of it here in WWH.

WWH brings back the 616 comic world BACK, heros aren't making political analogy to to homeland security in america after 9/11 which was clearly millars take and many others writers take...

The genius of CW is that the political analogy was incidental, the comic story was foremost. The 616 has always been about flawed heroes and 3 dimensional villains. Civil War brought us the flawed heroes like never before- now, with the Hulk, WWH is bringing us the in-depth 3 dimensional villain.

Sure you can see some of that in WWH such as the take on American imperilism and arrogance to other nations (eg alien) and it coming back to bite them...but seriously that is only if you really really wanna look
Civil war might as well had we hate bush written all over it...now regardless of if i agree with that or not, that was my downer with civil war, i prefer that message in the ultimates and ultimate lines, i like the 616 with a liberal dose of cheese and spandex but still relevant and edgy when needed...

I find that funny, because some people say Civil War's overarching message is right wing and Neocon, now you say it's liberal and Anti Bush. Guess we each read into it what we want. I'd agree with you, though.

No, Civil war is an entirely different beast with different aims, its like comparing Secret wars with Ultimate secret wars, one was a crazy stupid cheesy affair that was a great ride the other was a moody broody politically motivated and DREARY piece of dross...

I was gonna say one was a crazy, stupid cheesy affair that was a great ride, the other never existed.

Seriously, there was an Ultimate Secret Wars and I missed it?

Civil war was well written in that it was a piece to create a change but as a story it was clunky and not something you read to give you that comic kick. Its more a historians piece than a comics lovers read.

So ok you go for that...and thats fine but try to look at WWH for what it is within the frame work of getting marvel AWAY from the total ultimatarisation of civil war.

Guess we'll agree to disagree. I certainly don't think Civil War ultimised the marvel universe in any way except being realistic, and if I had to read a comic on a rainy day I'd get more kick out of civil war than WWH any day, simply because of the more emotional, more complex story with better moments and - one of the few comics that can boast this- better art.


Guess we've got to agree to COMPLETELY disagree.;)

[redhulk]

No, I really can. It's all down to opinion and the climatic battle of the Ultimates 2 is possibly my favourite giant fight in the history of comics, right up there with JLA/Avengers #4.

Oh no... really? It was such a downer for me...ok fair enough but really it was such an anticlimax for me....that foldout was annoying...so yes horses for courses...but did like the JLA/Avengers 4

And a colossal advantage the Ultimates enjoys over WWH is that the whole way through, you don't know who lives and who dies and who will win which fight, even if you know the good guys will win in the end. But in World War Hulk, it's hard to get in any way excited by fights when you know it's jusdt a question of how much Hulk wins by- 99% of the time just by smashing or jobbing.

Agreed...but im a hulk fan so sue me.


Well yes, but I think there's a difference between Hulk creating a machine and Reed Richards creating the same machine. ;)

Tch!! if we weren't all banned from a certain icon that would be inserted write there!!!



I'd have about 6 less friends reading comics if it weren't for good old Civil War.

Yeah probably around same age group as you. I think the ultimate lot would sign on after reading civil war but i can imagine WWH going for different audience..



Really? Can't say the same here, everyone I've shown THe Ultimates to has loved it as a kickass book which combines art as good as World War Hulk, dialogue and plotting ten times better, more in depth characterization, actual character development, unpredictability, and- this one's kinda sad, al things considered- action which can blow WWH out of the water.

Hmmm well you see, i kind of agree, well did, but when i see different age groups 14-22 ultimate drags, 22+ ultimates kicks ass, i get the feeling you are 25+ so its kind of in keeping with what im seeing, so now i see two sides....I liked it, and yes i do agree, but its wordy and political and the kick ass is from a different point of view.



I... I find it pretty hard to believe anyone can even try to make a case that any of the battles in World War Hulk can match up to the Ultimates versus Hulk, the ultimates versus Thor, or the climatic battles of either Ultimates volume. I just can't see it. The most "Whoah" moment of WWH for me was the destruction of Stark Tower, but that was before I'd filly adjusted myself to exactly how mindless and big WH was going to be. As opposed to The Ultimates where I'm doing it every 2 or 3 pages at the finale of each volume.

Oh yes i can, not ultimates 1. as granted that was great...but ultimates 2 apart from a few hawkeye moments i was so bored at the scene you already said you loved and so amped by the WWH that obviously its a ....aint folks queer kind of thing and we like what we like.



Hell even now I compare them in my mind. Am I supposed to find the Hulk SCARY in WWH? I think I am to a degree but yeah, I've already seen "Hero kicks other heroes asses because of a misunderstanding" done better with Ultimate Thor, I've already seen New York trashed and The Liberators came across as fifty times the threat Hulk has so far without jobbing once.

Hmmmm well its a bit different in ultimates you could make them disposable i mean sure i would love if hulk found out tony DID set the bomb on purpose and then Hulk DID rip tony to pieces...now the ultimates would do that, no way would any of these fights end in stalemates of justs knock outs....but cmon its unfair to put those constraits on WWH it cant happen hulk has to JOB as you say as tony must live blackbolt must live and so on.

Black widow died in ultimates no way would that happen in 616, even if it does we know its not a death death..so it would be a crass moment in ultiamtes it shocks as you know it IS a death death.

This is as close as hulk can get to ripping of tony starks arms and beating them with them as he can GET in the 616 universe...and we both know thats a fact i KNOW you know there is no other way it could happen

Just look at the same Hulk wolverine fight in the ultimates...






Not recent ultimate x-men, I'm talking the first 36 awesome issues of Ultimate X-Men. Which yes, I do like better than this.

Yes i know you were, the ultimates is dead now...but the initial stuff as i said was great why i pointed out the useless recent stuff.



No, it wasn't an "ultimisation" at all except in terms of realism. But for me, Civil War is the gold standard


Cough...no no no...arrgh ok we will always disagree, GOLD STANDARD? its a wooden spoon to me, but ok i repsect your views.

I'll compare other events to. It had emotion, drama, characterization, action- sure, Cap vs Iron Man from 3 may not be anywhere near as big as Hulk and Iron Man blowing up the New York skyline, but the weight and force of the build-up, the history of the two, the emotions fuelling it mean that page and a half of battle means more, carries more weight than 3 non stop issues of it here in WWH.

SOrry can't go with that, but heck you stated your case fair enough....I wonder if more posters see Civilwar as a gold standard in comics?

Guys? Anyone else think mags is onto something?





The genius of CW is that the political analogy was incidental

Splutter ...GET OUTTA HERE...

, the comic story was foremost.

No way..totally the opposite conclusion that i came to.

The 616 has always been about flawed heroes and 3 dimensional villains

Flawed heros and villand but never really as 3 dimensional as the ultiamte line.

. Civil War brought us the flawed heroes like never before- now, with the Hulk, WWH is bringing us the in-depth 3 dimensional villain.


Hmmm....no just see it as more shades of grey IN TECHNICOLOUR GREY as it were




I find that funny, because some people say Civil War's overarching message is right wing and Neocon, now you say it's liberal and Anti Bush. Guess we each read into it what we want. I'd agree with you, though.

I think its richtwing and neocon as a way to highlight the wrongness of right wing and neocon as honestly if you really don't feel tony is a facist after reading it you probably though mccarthy was a liberal/







I was gonna say one was a crazy, stupid cheesy affair that was a great ride, the other never existed.

Seriously, there was an Ultimate Secret Wars and I missed it?

One were they go to latvia or wherever and there is the earthquake chick



Guess we'll agree to disagree. I certainly don't think Civil War ultimised the marvel universe in any way except being realistic, and if I had to read a comic on a rainy day I'd get more kick out of civil war than WWH any day, simply because of the more emotional, more complex story with better moments and - one of the few comics that can boast this- better art.


Ok fair enough


:)

Guess we've got to agree to COMPLETELY disagree.;)[/QUOTE]

[Magneto Rocks]

Yeah probably around same age group as you. I think the ultimate lot would sign on after reading civil war but i can imagine WWH going for different audience..

Yup, they are the same age group as me buut...


Hmmm well you see, i kind of agree, well did, but when i see different age groups 14-22 ultimate drags, 22+ ultimates kicks ass, i get the feeling you are 25+ so its kind of in keeping with what im seeing, so now i see two sides....I liked it, and yes i do agree, but its wordy and political and the kick ass is from a different point of view.

Afraid you're incorrect- I am in fact not yet 22 years of age. :D

Oh yes i can, not ultimates 1. as granted that was great...but ultimates 2 apart from a few hawkeye moments i was so bored at the scene you already said you loved and so amped by the WWH that obviously its a ....aint folks queer kind of thing and we like what we like.

Ah well, to each his own. But from Iron Man 6 to Giant-sized Gan, to the return of Thor, I found it full of many more "AWESOMEE!!!" moments.

Hmmmm well its a bit different in ultimates you could make them disposable i mean sure i would love if hulk found out tony DID set the bomb on purpose and then Hulk DID rip tony to pieces...now the ultimates would do that, no way would any of these fights end in stalemates of justs knock outs....but cmon its unfair to put those constraits on WWH it cant happen hulk has to JOB as you say as tony must live blackbolt must live and so on.

Black widow died in ultimates no way would that happen in 616, even if it does we know its not a death death..so it would be a crass moment in ultiamtes it shocks as you know it IS a death death.

This is as close as hulk can get to ripping of tony starks arms and beating them with them as he can GET in the 616 universe...and we both know thats a fact i KNOW you know there is no other way it could happen

Just look at the same Hulk wolverine fight in the ultimates...

Oh absolutely, you're totally right. The Ultimates could get away with more, and it's not due to the writing of WWH. But it's still something that detracts from my enjoyment of it- Civil War had more of the feel that "Anything" could happen. With Civil War, it wasn't impossible that ANYONE short of Spider-Man could die, it was unpredictable and felt like anything could happen, anyone could die. Just IMO.





Cough...no no no...arrgh ok we will always disagree, GOLD STANDARD? its a wooden spoon to me, but ok i repsect your views.

SOrry can't go with that, but heck you stated your case fair enough....I wonder if more posters see Civilwar as a gold standard in comics?

Guys? Anyone else think mags is onto something?

Now now now, not gold standard in COMICS... gold standard in crossovers. ;)


No way..totally the opposite conclusion that i came to.

Really? Guess it is to each his own but I think when we start seeing clones and whatnot, the analogy becomes strained.


I think its richtwing and neocon as a way to highlight the wrongness of right wing and neocon as honestly if you really don't feel tony is a facist after reading it you probably though mccarthy was a liberal/

Naa, if you don't feel Tony's a fascist it means you're politically aware. The SHRA would be left wing and liberal if it was a real bill, almost hippy-liberal. The neocons would be killing each other in their race to denounce it.

One were they go to latvia or wherever and there is the earthquake chick

That wasn't Ultimate! That was "Secret War" (Singular ;) ) by Bendis and it was 616!

The white Nick Fury didn't give it away?

But anyway, glad I understand your view better, thanks for a meaningful little debate.

Though please, this isn't a criticism but in the name of all that is holy, learn to use the quote button:p

[Adriel]

By Ultimate Secret Wars, he means Secret War,which was not Ultimate at all, by the way. It was in 616, and it is why Nick Fury is in hiding right now.

[Mike Smash!]

Naa, if you don't feel Tony's a fascist it means you're politically aware. The SHRA would be left wing and liberal if it was a real bill, almost hippy-liberal. The neocons would be killing each other in their race to denounce it.How many "hippy-liberal" bills give the government the a spandex clad super-army and the ability to draft them into military against their will or involve secret prisons in other dimensions or the sort of total survelliance and top-down centralization of power behind a military authority in SHIELD. It's inevitable that under a SHRA-style system that superhumans would eventually be used overseas in military operations.

Frankly, I am not at all comfortable with giving the government - any government - that sort of military power. Not to mention with a colorful PR aspect.

If the SHRA actually came across as a "police accountability" bill, I could agree with you, but it's far more like the "caped stormtrooper" model that we saw in Millar's the Ultimates.

Creating a costumed military industrial complex that can actively work within and outside of U.S. borders under the control of either the White House or SHIELD is far scarier to me.

[aut0matic]

i honestly don't see the jobbing you're talking about, magneto rocks... who has hulk beaten so far that you see as an inexcusable loss?

[thronzeblast]

I dont mind it nothing of this magnitude should happen and then thing's just go on like normal and the aftermath is not shown.I would really like them to touch on the way the people around the illumanti feel about the group and when they did family friend's etc.

[Kevinroc]

Well... I'm sorry to have to tell you then that "Aftersmash" was just a joke - it's actually called "Hulk: Against the World." (according to... CBR!)

I saw that but don't know if it's true anymore. Given that Joe Q. apparently said this during his Cup o' Joe panel.

http://www.newsarama.com/Chicago_07/Marvel/Sat/Cup_O_Joe.html


- World War Hulk: "After world War Hulk will be Aftersmash, a continuation of the fun you saw in World War Hulk."

[Xanrn]

Noone saying the Hulk is jobbing.

Its his crappy 1 year old friends taking out everyone in 2 Panels.

Also the Ultimate Line is dying? What the hell bizarro world are you living in.

As for Ultimate Secret War, I take it your talking about Ultimate War Mini that tied in with Return of the King arc in Ultimate X-men.

Which rocked, Colossus beating down Iron Man and then Thor.

Ninja Rabbis.

THE ICEMAN COMETH!

[thronzeblast]

Noone saying the Hulk is jobbing.

Its his crappy 1 year old friends taking out everyone in 2 Panels.

Also the Ultimate Line is dying? What the hell bizarro world are you living in.

As for Ultimate Secret War, I take it your talking about Ultimate War Mini that tied in with Return of the King arc in Ultimate X-men.

Which rocked, Colossus beating down Iron Man and then Thor.

Ninja Rabbis.

THE ICEMAN COMETH!



I the thing is that whole fight could have been done better Cage got taken out of the fight at the start that left hiriom hulk at his current level's sampson is not lasting long with the hulk.By this time spiderman should have taken out elloe.Korg is close to or at thing's strenght level and there duribility should be similar so that fight is gonna go the distance.

Spiderwomen is gonna put down meik but he should be able to keep her tied up as should miss marvel be able to ake out the brood but not right away.That leave's hulk and hiriom free to either fight spiderman or help korg.Either way the avenger's go down eventually the point is that if the fight was given the attention it deserved there would be no reason for alot of the critism.

[Sabrinaset]

How many "hippy-liberal" bills give the government the a spandex clad super-army and the ability to draft them into military against their will or involve secret prisons in other dimensions or the sort of total survelliance and top-down centralization of power behind a military authority in SHIELD.

Well, I keep thinking there's some parallels to Hillarycare here. You know ... let's privatize the healthcare (superhero) system by making them a part of the government and determining where they work/what they do (what state they work in, if not S.H.I.E.L.D.) and an enforced mandate for employers to provide health insurance coverage to all of their employees (provide all superheroes with salaries and benefits) and so forth ... heck, the very idea of a huge federal program at ALL is more along the lines of a liberal program, and not a Conservative one, which ... ignoring what the Republicans want ... would prefer more of a staes-rights level Super-Hero program, maybe even a local one.

Come to think of it ... didn't that Liberal FDR pretty much control the All-Star Squadron? Would Roy Thomas lie to me? :)

[Magneto Rocks]

How many "hippy-liberal" bills give the government the a spandex clad super-army and the ability to draft them into military against their will or involve secret prisons in other dimensions or the sort of total survelliance and top-down centralization of power behind a military authority in SHIELD. It's inevitable that under a SHRA-style system that superhumans would eventually be used overseas in military operations.

Hang on, let's deconstruct this a moment.

The secret prison is totally unrelated to the SHRA. Even the development if the Initiative isn't related. And there is an emergency draft clause, but it's clearly not into military.

So I think the real question is, how many conservative/right wing bills support the raising of taxes, massive government schemes, an increase in federal control, and the registration of dangerous weapons/powers? All these are inherently left wing, liberal concepts.

EDIT: Sabrinaset said it better than I could, thanks SS!

[Quinch]

the climatic battle of the Ultimates 2 is possibly my favourite giant fight in the history of comics,

it's hard to get in any way excited by fights when you know it's jusdt a question of how much Hulk wins by- 99% of the time just by smashing or jobbing.


I'd have about 6 less friends reading comics if it weren't for good old Civil War.



But for me, Civil War is the gold standard I'll compare other events to.
It had emotion, drama, characterization, action- sure, Cap vs Iron Man from 3 may not be anywhere near as big as Hulk and Iron Man blowing up the New York skyline, but the weight and force of the build-up, the history of the two, the emotions fuelling it mean that page and a half of battle means more, carries more weight than 3 non stop issues of it here in WWH.



The genius of CW is that the political analogy was incidental, the comic story was foremost. The 616 has always been about flawed heroes and 3 dimensional villains. Civil War brought us the flawed heroes like never before- now, with the Hulk, WWH is bringing us the in-depth 3 dimensional villain.





Guys? Anyone else think mags is onto something?

ON something yes, onto something no.

[Kevinroc]

Silverbulletcomicbooks claims Aftersmash will be a one-shot.

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/news/118687425339998.htm

(Of course, they also claim Millar and McNiven will be on Wolverine and I've seen nobody else report this.)

[steve2275]

(Of course, they also claim Millar and McNiven will be on Wolverine and I've seen nobody else report this.)
great if its true

[TotalWorldDomination]

Silverbulletcomicbooks claims Aftersmash will be a one-shot.

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/news/118687425339998.htm

(Of course, they also claim Millar and McNiven will be on Wolverine and I've seen nobody else report this.)

Wow, that's pretty big to not be reported anywhere else... I wonder if it's not just a mix up, they said that the Mil-Mc news would not be announced till the end of the year...

[Magneto Rocks]

I know it's been a few days but I wanted to point out that Millar/McNiven on Wolverine would definitely fit since Millar mentioned before he'd be returning to a book.

I wish it wasn't Wolverine as I'm not a character fan, but then I ADORED Enemy of the State and I would follow either of these creators to Image- I mean, to HELL itself, and McNiven is one of maybe three artists I can say that for.

Mike Wieringo, God rest him, was another. :(

[Kevinroc]

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/nov07/solicitations.html

Well, now I'm not sure what to think.


WORLD WAR HULK: AFTERSMASH
Written by GREG PAK
Art by RAFA SANDOVAL
Cover by GREG LAND
World War Hulk is over. But the Aftersmash has just begun. Heroes and monsters rise and fall as the events of "World War Hulk" reverberate through the blasted ruins of New York City with goliath impact in a massive story featuring the Warbound, the Renegades, Heroes for Hire, Iron Man, Tom Foster, and Damage Control. And yes, smashing will be involved.
64 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

So we are definitely getting a one-shot at least.

(And if there are any spin-offs, I hope it is for the Renegades.)

[CMBMOOL]

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/nov07/solicitations.html

Well, now I'm not sure what to think.

WORLD WAR HULK: AFTERSMASH
Written by GREG PAK
Art by RAFA SANDOVAL
Cover by GREG LAND
World War Hulk is over. But the Aftersmash has just begun. Heroes and monsters rise and fall as the events of "World War Hulk" reverberate through the blasted ruins of New York City with goliath impact in a massive story featuring the Warbound, the Renegades, Heroes for Hire, Iron Man, Tom Foster, and Damage Control. And yes, smashing will be involved.
64 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99


So we are definitely getting a one-shot at least.

(And if there are any spin-offs, I hope it is for the Renegades.)

I want to see some of the WWH aftersmash events touch the She-Hulk or at least the Fantastic Four or at least one of the Avengers titles. :(

[Magneto Rocks]

Well we already knew it wasn't touching the Avengers or FF.

Interesting that Hulk himself isn't mentioned in that aftershot solicit...

[XPac]

I want to see some of the WWH aftersmash events touch the She-Hulk or at least the Fantastic Four or at least one of the Avengers titles. :(

I'd be nice if Strange's actions with the Zom thing showed some consequences in the New Avengers title, unless that whole thing is resolved in WWH.

[Kevinroc]

I'd be nice if Strange's actions with the Zom thing showed some consequences in the New Avengers title, unless that whole thing is resolved in WWH.

How soon we forget.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=10849


The Skrulls aren't the only green invaders from outer space the New Avengers will have to contend with. "New Avengers" may not tie directly into "World War Hulk," but once that epic story wraps, Bendis has plans to address the ramifications of the Hulk revenge saga. "There's a big moment where a New Avenger pulls something out of a box that he's not supposed to, and it will have direct ramifications to a character I'm in love with," Bendis revealed. "The character does something they are going to have to pay the price for. I'm very excited about it. That will be directly affected in 'New Avengers.'"

Yes, MR, WWH will have ramifications on the New Avengers title. Eat it, Dr. Strange!

And I wonder if this is WWH-related.

Some readers might be looking for Dr. Strange to pay another price for his actions in the pages of "New Avengers: The Illuminati" #5. "The Illuminati will be outed but that was a fake-out to tell people because the big reveal in issue #5 has to do with the Skrulls," Bendis explained. "Their discovery and the fact that it might be the Illuminati's fault is the big story that ties up the mini-series. The Illuminati will be outed later in the year, which won't help with the Skrull mistrust."

Is that the Hulk that outed them? Hhmm...

[CMBMOOL]

Some readers might be looking for Dr. Strange to pay another price for his actions in the pages of "New Avengers: The Illuminati" #5. "The Illuminati will be outed but that was a fake-out to tell people because the big reveal in issue #5 has to do with the Skrulls," Bendis explained. "Their discovery and the fact that it might be the Illuminati's fault is the big story that ties up the mini-series. The Illuminati will be outed later in the year, which won't help with the Skrull mistrust."

Is that the Hulk that outed them? Hhmm...

I guess in a way Bendis was correct by stating that within the end of the mini-series the Illuminati is outed, however while #5 is about what the team did to the the Skrull in the First issue of the mini-series. I was correct to guess that it was what they did to the Hulk in the FIRST ONE-SHOT special is how they are exposed now. :D

[Magneto Rocks]

Yes, MR, WWH will have ramifications on the New Avengers title. Eat it, Dr. Strange!

We've known that for MONTHS. But again, I seriously doubt the ramifications will be particularly major.

And when you consider that Civil War RADICALLY changed Fantastic Four, every single Avengers and Spider-Man title, plus a load of Marvel Uni titles etc.... I don't see why I'd have a problem with World War Hulk having some minor ramifications in one title which is not Incredible Hulk.

[Kefky]

Man, I know I shouldn't be complaining, but this nonsensical bs with dr. Strange is the sour note of WWH for me. As if new avengers wasn't enough. Next thing ya know, he won't be able to cast spells while having tea time with Wong.

'Cause, you know, his cloak can't work under those conditions. :rolleyes:

[Clea]

We've known that for MONTHS. But again, I seriously doubt the ramifications will be particularly major.

And when you consider that Civil War RADICALLY changed Fantastic Four, every single Avengers and Spider-Man title, plus a load of Marvel Uni titles etc.... I don't see why I'd have a problem with World War Hulk having some minor ramifications in one title which is not Incredible Hulk.

Unless something that we haven't seen yet in WWH will help to explain why Dr. Strange has been acting so 'off' and depowered in NAs. I can't make any sense out of the timeline or story links among NAs, Illuminati, Mighty, and WWH, so I honestly cannot tell if WWH takes place before or during the events we're seeing in NAs.

There's got to be some reason for Dr. Strange's sorry depiction in NAs. ... Unless of course, Bendis means to portray Dr. Strange as a wussy weakling for some other reason.

[XPac]

Unless something that we haven't seen yet in WWH will help to explain why Dr. Strange has been acting so 'off' and depowered in NAs. I can't make any sense out of the timeline or story links among NAs, Illuminati, Mighty, and WWH, so I honestly cannot tell if WWH takes place before or during the events we're seeing in NAs.

There's got to be some reason for Dr. Strange's sorry depiction in NAs. ... Unless of course, Bendis means to portray Dr. Strange as a wussy weakling for some other reason.

Well, it's possible that Bendis might simply want to potray Strange as a bit more of a weakling because he doesn't want Strange solving every problem the NA face with a wave of his hand.

Strange CAN do it... he's that powerful. And that's a problem for any writer that makes the decision to use him.

That said, there could very well be more reason for Strange being a bit depowered. Obviously there's the Skrull possibility, or perhaps something else.

[Brad Barton]

That said, there could very well be more reason for Strange being a bit depowered. Obviously there's the Skrull possibility, or perhaps something else.What if they're all Skrulls? I mean, let's look at the current situation:

Black Bolt- Suddenly a prominent and often Earthbound hero who, until a few years ago, was C-list at best. His voice did practically nothing to the Hulk, and lately he's almost completely impotent as the Inhumans' leader.
Verdict: SKRULL

Iron Man- Went off on the power-trip to end all power-trips, and now seems to be the main instigator of Hero on Hero violence in the Marvel U.
Verdict: SKRULL

Charles Xavier- One week he has powers, the next week he doesn't. He also willingly imprisoned what he knew to be a free thinking entity in the Danger Room -- This isn't the Charlie X of yore.
Verdict: SKRULL

Reed Richards- Seems surprisingly aloof these days for a Super-Ultra-Genius -- Forgets who people are (Clea), Lets snotty nosed, Smart Asian kids get the better of him in a matter of seconds (IH #100) and seems hell-bent on following Stark to the bitter end when before they could be considered, at most, cordial allies.
Verdict: SKRULL

Namor- Suddenly gives a crap what the surface world thinks, and would also be a prime Skrull target, considering the power he wields in controlling Atlantis. Though he's probably the weakest argument here for Skrully behavior
Verdict: Maybe a SKRULL

Dr. Strange- Now gets punked by Ninja's?! -- 'Nuff said.
Verdict: SKRULL

There you have it, the Skrull-uminati. It actually makes sense if you think about it -- Bendis has everyone racking their brains to try and figure out who among them is a Skrull, that it doesn't occur to anyone that all of them could be.

[Clea]

Well, it's possible that Bendis might simply want to potray Strange as a bit more of a weakling because he doesn't want Strange solving every problem the NA face with a wave of his hand.

Strange CAN do it... he's that powerful. And that's a problem for any writer that makes the decision to use him.

That said, there could very well be more reason for Strange being a bit depowered. Obviously there's the Skrull possibility, or perhaps something else.

If it turns out that Bendis is portraying Strange as a weakling simply because he wants to use the character but not use him properly, then my respect for him as a writer is going to go way, way down. In WWH, when Strange's reaction to fighting the Hulk was to reach for Zom, I just said, WTF and then started to laugh because I figured that Pac had written himself into a corner for the very reason you just said: Strange could have solved the whole problem another way... but then the story would be over without the big HULK WILL SMASH!!! payoff that everyone is waiting for. There are so many other things that Strange could have, and logically should have done besides reach for one of the most dangerous magical forces known... but no. Since the plot requires Hulk to squash Strange, Strange here suddenly takes a gigantic stupid pill and calls on Zom. Sure, it's going to make for a fun story, and I'm expecting the next issue of WWH to have an entertaining fight, but the whole premise of it still strikes me as being something that Strange simply would never had done. Likewise in NA, Bendis may want to use Strange, but he's portraying Strange so badly in NAs that he's making the character look bad. I've had so many WTF moments with Bendis' potrayal of Strange in NAs that I've lost count. I don't like to see writers make characters look stupid just to advance their own plotline.

[Magneto Rocks]

What if they're all Skrulls? I mean, let's look at the current situation:

...Just to counter you, bee ;)

Black Bolt- Suddenly a prominent and often Earthbound hero who, until a few years ago, was C-list at best. His voice did practically nothing to the Hulk, and lately he's almost completely impotent as the Inhumans' leader.
Verdict: SKRULL

Hardly, he has lead the Inhumans as always and all he did was whisper to Hulk, so we don't know if his voice would have blown him away, as I'd assume, had he screamed.

Iron Man- Went off on the power-trip to end all power-trips, and now seems to be the main instigator of Hero on Hero violence in the Marvel U.
Verdict: SKRULL

For the "main instigator of violence" he sure gives a hell of a lot of chances for others to step down. Not to mention that a power trip presumes one WANTS the power, which he has shown in word and deed that he does not.
Point.

Reed Richards- Seems surprisingly aloof these days for a Super-Ultra-Genius -- Forgets who people are (Clea), Lets snotty nosed, Smart Asian kids get the better of him in a matter of seconds (IH #100) and seems hell-bent on following Stark to the bitter end when before they could be considered, at most, cordial allies.
Verdict: SKRULL

He's clearly not hell bent on following Stark at all, SOMEONE's not reading the FF's own title :p

Those are the three I wished to address. I know you were only speaking hypothetically but of course furthermore, there are reasons exterior to the marvel universe which make it incredibly unlikely either Tony OR Reed is a Skrull.

[thronzeblast]

If it turns out that Bendis is portraying Strange as a weakling simply because he wants to use the character but not use him properly, then my respect for him as a writer is going to go way, way down. In WWH, when Strange's reaction to fighting the Hulk was to reach for Zom, I just said, WTF and then started to laugh because I figured that Pac had written himself into a corner for the very reason you just said: Strange could have solved the whole problem another way... but then the story would be over without the big HULK WILL SMASH!!! payoff that everyone is waiting for. There are so many other things that Strange could have, and logically should have done besides reach for one of the most dangerous magical forces known... but no. Since the plot requires Hulk to squash Strange, Strange here suddenly takes a gigantic stupid pill and calls on Zom. Sure, it's going to make for a fun story, and I'm expecting the next issue of WWH to have an entertaining fight, but the whole premise of it still strikes me as being something that Strange simply would never had done. Likewise in NA, Bendis may want to use Strange, but he's portraying Strange so badly in NAs that he's making the character look bad. I've had so many WTF moments with Bendis' potrayal of Strange in NAs that I've lost count. I don't like to see writers make characters look stupid just to advance their own plotline.




I dont know what to say about strange at one time he is the most powerful person in marvel and then the other he cant even teleport to another country.Given how powerful he has been protrayed in the past strange should be able to take out the mighty avenger's alone excluding sentry who he should be able to take out with prep time.


You have to give alot of allowance's for WWH i mean realisticly the hulk is going after some of the most powerful guys in the marvel universe.Who in my opinion every single one has the ability to put him down if not using there own power as in reed's and tony's case using there intelligence.

[XPac]

If it turns out that Bendis is portraying Strange as a weakling simply because he wants to use the character but not use him properly, then my respect for him as a writer is going to go way, way down. In WWH, when Strange's reaction to fighting the Hulk was to reach for Zom, I just said, WTF and then started to laugh because I figured that Pac had written himself into a corner for the very reason you just said: Strange could have solved the whole problem another way... but then the story would be over without the big HULK WILL SMASH!!! payoff that everyone is waiting for. There are so many other things that Strange could have, and logically should have done besides reach for one of the most dangerous magical forces known... but no. Since the plot requires Hulk to squash Strange, Strange here suddenly takes a gigantic stupid pill and calls on Zom. Sure, it's going to make for a fun story, and I'm expecting the next issue of WWH to have an entertaining fight, but the whole premise of it still strikes me as being something that Strange simply would never had done. Likewise in NA, Bendis may want to use Strange, but he's portraying Strange so badly in NAs that he's making the character look bad. I've had so many WTF moments with Bendis' potrayal of Strange in NAs that I've lost count. I don't like to see writers make characters look stupid just to advance their own plotline.

Strange is powerful to the point where he should either be depowered, or sent off to limbo.

Strange is a great character that writers want to use, and one that readers genuinely want to see. So most writers go for the depowering option. It's understandable that Strange fans sometimes aren't a fan of that... but I'm not sure the alternative sounds better.

[Clea]

Strange is powerful to the point where he should either be depowered, or sent off to limbo.

Strange is a great character that writers want to use, and one that readers genuinely want to see. So most writers go for the depowering option. It's understandable that Strange fans sometimes aren't a fan of that... but I'm not sure the alternative sounds better.


I'd offer one other alternative which is to put him back in his own series and keep him almost entirely focussed on mystical plotlines. That is his natural element, not superhero titles where he has to be dumbed down/broken to be used.

[The White-Spider]

Reed Richards- Seems surprisingly aloof these days for a Super-Ultra-Genius -- Forgets who people are (Clea) ... seems hell-bent on following Stark to the bitter end when before they could be considered, at most, cordial allies.
Verdict: SKRULL


I don't mind adding a bit of fuel to the speculation on this issue, courtesy of Marvel's November Solicits:

FANTASTIC FOUR #552
Written by DWAYNE MCDUFFIE
Pencils by PAUL PELLETIER
Cover by MICHAEL TURNER
Dr. Doom has come from the future with a message: Reed Richards must be stopped now, before his ultimate Civil War plans come to fruition. What was Mr. Fantastic really doing during Civil War? The answers are finally revealed.
32 PGS./Rated A …$2.99

(Emphasis added to encourage Skrull paranoia)


http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x272/white-spider/MCT-2.png (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=187097)

[superion]

I'd offer one other alternative which is to put him back in his own series and keep him almost entirely focussed on mystical plotlines. That is his natural element, not superhero titles where he has to be dumbed down/broken to be used.

Yep he should be on a team with other mystical heroes like Ghost Rider, Son of Satan, Juggernaut and others dealing with mystical threats. Bendis has pretty much depowered the Sentry as well. He's supposed to be the most powerful being in the Marvel Universe but so far I haven't really been impressed by his performances.

[Firemane]

My guess is that Namor,Xavier and Stark are not Skrulls although in Namors case that could change by the end of his mini series.I really dislike the fact that they are pulling the "everything you knew about these people over the past 40 yrs is wrong crap". Hell any replacement before heroes reborn doesnt even make sense, throw in the events of House of M and it makes even less sense, unless this is all the result of something Wanda did or forgot to do, which turns the whole debate into a steaming pile of crap.

[XPac]

I'd offer one other alternative which is to put him back in his own series and keep him almost entirely focussed on mystical plotlines. That is his natural element, not superhero titles where he has to be dumbed down/broken to be used.

They've done that from time to time... mostly in minis. And certainly that's more his enviroment. But the thing is, in general, anytime you go outside the mainstream, it becames a bit harder to market.

One of the upsides to putting Strange in a team like the New Avengers is that he at least potentialy does make him more marketable, so that when he does less mainstream work there's a better chance he'll sell.

[Magneto Rocks]

I don't mind adding a bit of fuel to the speculation on this issue, courtesy of Marvel's November Solicits:

FANTASTIC FOUR #552
Written by DWAYNE MCDUFFIE
Pencils by PAUL PELLETIER
Cover by MICHAEL TURNER
Dr. Doom has come from the future with a message: Reed Richards must be stopped now, before his ultimate Civil War plans come to fruition. What was Mr. Fantastic really doing during Civil War? The answers are finally revealed.
32 PGS./Rated A ?$2.99

(Emphasis added to encourage Skrull paranoia)


http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x272/white-spider/MCT-2.png (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=187097)

Given that we know the Skrull plot isn't entering other comics until NEXT year, and that this is a plot McDuffie has been playing out for some time, I actually think that will be evidence Reed is NOT a Skrull.

But then again, with no FF tie-ins at ALL to the event as far as we know, I'd be pretty damn surprised if Reed was a Skrull. Millar won't want to have to write his first story with THREE members of the FF plus Reed, that's a full third of his run he'd need to do that for! Plus Millar is clearly going to be writing Reed as he wrote him before in Enemy of the State and Civil War, and since Millar won't be writing a skrull it's unlikely Reed will be "unmasked" as one in the last part of 2007 either.

[XPac]

I don't mind adding a bit of fuel to the speculation on this issue, courtesy of Marvel's November Solicits:

FANTASTIC FOUR #552
Written by DWAYNE MCDUFFIE
Pencils by PAUL PELLETIER
Cover by MICHAEL TURNER
Dr. Doom has come from the future with a message: Reed Richards must be stopped now, before his ultimate Civil War plans come to fruition. What was Mr. Fantastic really doing during Civil War? The answers are finally revealed.
32 PGS./Rated A …$2.99

(Emphasis added to encourage Skrull paranoia)


http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x272/white-spider/MCT-2.png (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=187097)

Dam... that sounds awesome.

[The White-Spider]

..we know the Skrull plot isn't entering other comics until NEXT year..
..with no FF tie-ins at ALL to the event as far as we know..
..I'd be pretty damn surprised if Reed was a Skrull..
..since Millar won't be writing a skrull it's unlikely Reed will be "unmasked" as one in the last part of 2007 either..


If Reed were a skrull don't you think that they'd want that fact to be surprising? (Don't you love paranoia? J/k on this point).

I really don't have an opinion on who is and isn't a Skrull at the moment, because whomever they decide to out as a Skrull, it will likely require some shoehorning of that character into a "of course he was a Skrull!" scenario.

On to valid arguments. Yes, the main event happens next year, just as WWH happened this year. That doesn't mean there won't be any subtle hints and plot threads sprinkled here and there during the build up. The same was true with Civil War, World War Hulk and House of M, to varying degrees. The final Illuminati issue hits the stands later this year and seems to deal with the Skrull issue.

It's much too early for us to have any idea of what ties into the Skrull event and how. That's not much of a basis for or against.

As far as Millar, if one of the primary Illuminati is a skrull somebody is going to have the task of writing the character and some writers, in general, may find it interesting to push the envelope with their characters during the build up to the event, in order to deliberately create doubt in the minds of readers.

I'd be just plain shocked if most of the writers ignored the opportunity to play around with the atmosphere of paranoia and distrust between characters and among readers. It'd just be a waste.

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[Magneto Rocks]

You know, i ngeneral I agree, TWS, and a lot of that is true for most writers. But not Millar/Hitch, not with FF. Read the interviews, they are in LOVE with the book and they have had it all mapped out for a while. They want to explore new dimensions, to use wacky, crazy ideas, they're using big baddies and epic scope, they want to cram FF full of what made it The World's Greatest Comic Magazine back in the day...

...And the Skrull plot interferes with that. They have 12 issues to be up there with what they consider Marvel's biggest title, 12 issues and I don't think they'll want to spend a third of them on "someone else's plot."

On to valid arguments. Yes, the main event happens next year, just as WWH happened this year. That doesn't mean there won't be any subtle hints and plot threads sprinkled here and there during the build up. The same was true with Civil War, World War Hulk and House of M, to varying degrees.

Right but if November's issue delivers all the answers and he's a Skrull in it, that would be a huge thing THIS year, which isn't going to happen.

It's much too early for us to have any idea of what ties into the Skrull event and how. That's not much of a basis for or against.

No, reading anything Millar and Hitch say on FF, I'd be VERY sceptical of it tying in even remotely. But I can ask Millar in person at Dublin Comic-Con :D

As far as Millar, if one of the primary Illuminati is a skrull somebody is going to have the task of writing the character and some writers, in general, may find it interesting to push the envelope with their characters during the build up to the event, in order to deliberately create doubt in the minds of readers.

Again, not Millar. Not the way he's going, I know the man and he will NOT want to spend a third of his run with a Skrull as a quarter of the main cast. He'll want to hit it off with huge ideas right out of the park and he won't want to let the Skrull stuff stop him. And marvel will let him, because it's Millar.

[Kefky]

After reading those FF solicits, I'm gonna have to jump on the side of the fence that says Reed is a skrull too. It just seems like too much of a coincidence that this is a shipping on the same month as Illuminati 5, and MA 7, where all the other important skrull-related developments will take place.

Still... It seems a little odd that Reed's acting so peaceful and wimpy in WWH if he's actually a skrull. But whatever. It seems like McDuffie's story will kick ass, skrully Reed or not.

[Magneto Rocks]

After reading those FF solicits, I'm gonna have to jump on the side of the fence that says Reed is a skrull too. It just seems like too much of a coincidence that this is a shipping on the same month as Illuminati 5, and MA 7, where all the other important skrull-related developments will take place.

Still... It seems a little odd that Reed's acting so peaceful and wimpy in WWH if he's actually a skrull. But whatever. It seems like McDuffie's story will kick ass, skrully Reed or not.

Again, Kefky, allow me to refer you to both that it's been clear McDuffie's been going this way all along and that Tom Brevoort specifically said the Skrull story won't have any major implications OUTSIDE the Avengers line until next year.

Plus it's made even more unliekly by the fact that this entire arc of McDuffie's is only happening because Millar/Hitch couldn't get FF out for it's original start date in September.

[Kefky]

Again, Kefky, allow me to refer you to both that it's been clear McDuffie's been going this way all along and that Tom Brevoort specifically said the Skrull story won't have any major implications OUTSIDE the Avengers line until next year.

Eh, he could always have lied. :p

Plus it's made even more unliekly by the fact that this entire arc of McDuffie's is only happening because Millar/Hitch couldn't get FF out for it's original start date in September.

He only said that he had to extend his stories. I actually think this is a perfect way to give Millar a good, clean, Reed Richards to work with.

[Magneto Rocks]

He only said that he had to extend his stories. I actually think this is a perfect way to give Millar a good, clean, Reed Richards to work with.

Right, but we KNOW Millar was originally launching in September. I just don't think it's at all likely that McDuffie's been build this just to reveal that Reed is a Skrull, with NO foresahdowing at all in the FF's own book, and that it's happening despite that doesn't jive with what we know for next year (Millar would HAVE to address it in some way if this was the case) and that Tom B was lying, etc, etc.

[The White-Spider]

You know, in general I agree, TWS,

You've got to stop doing that, MR, it's just unnatural. Oh, alright. Just this one time.


Read the interviews, they are in LOVE with the book and they have had it all mapped out for a while. They want to explore new dimensions, to use wacky, crazy ideas, they're using big baddies and epic scope, they want to cram FF full of what made it The World's Greatest Comic Magazine back in the day...

...And the Skrull plot interferes with that. They have 12 issues to be up there with what they consider Marvel's biggest title, 12 issues and I don't think they'll want to spend a third of them on "someone else's plot."

Right but if November's issue delivers all the answers and he's a Skrull in it, that would be a huge thing THIS year, which isn't going to happen.

No, reading anything Millar and Hitch say on FF, I'd be VERY sceptical of it tying in even remotely. But I can ask Millar in person at Dublin Comic-Con :D

Again, not Millar. Not the way he's going, I know the man and he will NOT want to spend a third of his run with a Skrull as a quarter of the main cast. He'll want to hit it off with huge ideas right out of the park and he won't want to let the Skrull stuff stop him. And marvel will let him, because it's Millar.


Well, I'll concede to the fact that I haven't read the interviews and I'm not going to argue your stated personal knowledge of someone. [Although it explains a lot about his writing style and your posting sty-- hey... wait a minute..]

At any rate, let us know about any insights you come across in Dublin.
Although, if he's going to be writing a skrull, he is definitely not going to admit it.

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