Jason Todd -- A Possible Solution

[shaxper]

Here me out on this one. I think it has the potential to please almost everyone:

Give Judd Winnick twelve issues to finally do everything he wanted to do with Jason. That would include...

-A 4 issue "Red Hood Year One" story that would undo the retcon punch bullshit and give a better, more fleshed out explanation for Jason's return, as well as provide some more character motivation and a better explanation of why he chose to take on the Joker's old alias. Maybe it will even explain what happened after that explosion right before OYL began.

-Followed by an 8 issue limited series where Winnick finally gets to reach his final goals with Jason, reaching a final resolution with Batman (whether good or bad) and getting a final confrontation with the Joker.

Here's where this idea has appeal:

At the end of #7, have an ad advertising a phone voting campaign to kill Red Hood or keep him alive and in his own title. Come on! It's strangely appropriate!!

Sadly, this post is not entirely meant to be taken as a joke. I'd love to see DC try this.

[Jack Zodiac]

A mulligan? I don't think Winick deserves one. Give Jason to a writer who actually wants to make him a worthwhile character and not a ridiculously cheap plot device and you're on.

[Super Buddies Forever]

All I would need is a plausible new resurrection story. I just can't get behind the character due to the huge black cloud hanging over the way he was brought back. He was never supposed to die (how does that work, exactly?), Prime changed reality so this came to pass, yet somehow the death still happened and his corpse reanimated. Because he was never supposed to die. Yet he still died. What?

Thankfully, this garbage is Pre-IC. It can be undone, and we can be given a sounder "New Earth" explanation for how Jason came back from death. Hopefully something that fits within the Bat mythos a bit better too.

[Buried Alien]

The "how" of Jason's return was good enough for me. Now that he is back, I'm hoping writers will take more time to explore his relationships with Bruce, Dick, and Tim. Aside from that three-way confrontation among Batman, the Joker, and Jason on the eve of INFINITE CRISIS, very little has been explored in the relationship among the family. When Jason encounters his "father" and "brothers," the tendency is for them to fight rather than talk. They need to talk things over.

I'd be especially interested in a discussion between Jason and Tim because they had never actually known each other until Jason's return. Tim didn't appear on the scene until after Jason died. They know very little about each other.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[DWEarhart]

A mulligan? I don't think Winick deserves one. Give Jason to a writer who actually wants to make him a worthwhile character and not a ridiculously cheap plot device and you're on.

Greg Rucka or Phil Hester.

All I would need is a plausible new resurrection story. I just can't get behind the character due to the huge black cloud hanging over the way he was brought back. He was never supposed to die (how does that work, exactly?), Prime changed reality so this came to pass, yet somehow the death still happened and his corpse reanimated. Because he was never supposed to die. Yet he still died. What?

Thankfully, this garbage is Pre-IC. It can be undone, and we can be given a sounder "New Earth" explanation for how Jason came back from death. Hopefully something that fits within the Bat mythos a bit better too.

He died twice. Joker blew him up twice. Buried Alien acknowledges the twice. But yeah, I don't get it either.

The "how" of Jason's return was good enough for me. Now that he is back, I'm hoping writers will take more time to explore his relationships with Bruce, Dick, and Tim. Aside from that three-way confrontation among Batman, the Joker, and Jason on the eve of INFINITE CRISIS, very little has been explored in the relationship among the family. When Jason encounters his "father" and "brothers," the tendency is for them to fight rather than talk. They need to talk things over.

I'd be especially interested in a discussion between Jason and Tim because they had never actually known each other until Jason's return. Tim didn't appear on the scene until after Jason died. They know very little about each other.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I figure he needs some redemption before fight-not-talk happens. He seems to be gaining it in Countdown, but I think Tim still owes him some - and Jason did come out guns a blazing first, so it's not odd that others would want to scrap before they jaw things out.

I haven't read a DC-central comic in months, so some of my assumptions could be off. I still love Batman and his world, but the whole "event" schtick has pushed me to the wayside. I really liked Jason when he came back as the Red Hood, and saw alot of potential in him. I still think he deserves at least a mini-series.

[kalorama]

The "how" of Jason's return was good enough for me. Now that he is back, I'm hoping writers will take more time to explore his relationships with Bruce, Dick, and Tim. Aside from that three-way confrontation among Batman, the Joker, and Jason on the eve of INFINITE CRISIS, very little has been explored in the relationship among the family. When Jason encounters his "father" and "brothers," the tendency is for them to fight rather than talk. They need to talk things over.

I disagree. not with the part about being fine with the "how" of his return. i'm fine with that. I disagree about them needing to talk anything out. Personally, I like the idea of him as a bad guy (or at least a gray-area guy). He's interesting and different in that role. If they turn him into another grown-up ex-teen sidekick, he becomes redundant and superfluous.

[shaxper]

A mulligan? I don't think Winick deserves one.

Ah, gotcha'. You hate good comics. Nevermind then. ;)

[Jack Zodiac]

It's true. I can't read Trials of Shazam because it's so mind-meltingly good. And I won't even bother picking up Titans East 'cause I just know it's going to be so good, any book I pick up afterwards is going to pale in comparison. Damn you Winick, you creative genius!

[Choppa]

I've said this idea before, but I think it applies here-

Instead of resurrecting Jason the way they did, I would have had Jason be a Jason from another Earth who got here because of IC or something.

Then in the end he would go back to where he came from and Bruce would be left with the guilt that the real Jason might have turned out like that if he survived.

Actually they could probably still do that by retconning the retcon and having Jason be from another Earth.

[Captain Jim]

I've said this idea before, but I think it applies here-

Instead of resurrecting Jason the way they did, I would have had Jason be a Jason from another Earth who got here because of IC or something.

Then in the end he would go back to where he came from and Bruce would be left with the guilt that the real Jason might have turned out like that if he survived.

Actually they could probably still do that by retconning the retcon and having Jason be from another Earth.

See, this is what I'm hoping will be accomplished in either Countdown or Final Crisis. They've already said he's from a different earth (hence the monitors' desire to kill him), so I'm hoping that's where he'll eventually be returned to. "Our" earth is better off without him.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Another thing that irritates me is that the characters seemingly stopped questioning why Jason is back. To my knowledge, no one was ever privy to Prime's reality punches. Not that there's really any way to do this, nor would any good story come out of it. It's just very hard to believe that Batman of all people would just eventually shrug off his dead ward coming back. He'd still be looking for answers.

Really, it's a shame how bungled this storyline was. While it's not Winick's fault that Hush's identity wasn't Jason, that idea would have served both that story and the Todd character itself much better than the mess that we got. Not that I blame Loeb either, but HUSH was, in my mind, the make-or-break point to do this. Instead, Winick tried to take the broken pieces of a tantalizing possibility and, with Infinite Crisis and One Year Later looming, didn't have enough time to explore what should have been the biggest Batman story of all time. Coupled with the aborted plan to kill Dick and make Jason Nightwing, it just kept getting uglier and uglier.

So yeah, I really do think DC needs to stop, go back, and have a 12-issue mini-series all about Jason Todd. Tell the story that should have been told before Infinite Crisis, only now set on New Earth. Because, when it comes down to it, I want to like the idea of him being alive again. I just haven't been given any reason to.

[Theophilus]

I think Jason would be better served as a Batman focused character rather than DC Universe in general. That's where his story is.

[shaxper]

Another thing that irritates me is that the characters seemingly stopped questioning why Jason is back. To my knowledge, no one was ever privy to Prime's reality punches. Not that there's really any way to do this, nor would any good story come out of it. It's just very hard to believe that Batman of all people would just eventually shrug off his dead ward coming back. He'd still be looking for answers.

When Batman teamed up with Green Arrow and Ollie brought up Jason, Winnick made it clear that Batman was in total denial about him -- no desire to learn anything. He just wanted the bad guy stopped.


Whatever else everyone thinks of Winnick, this was his baby. Whether or not Jason should have come back in the first place (I don't think he should have), his upsetting return will be purposeless if Winnick doesn't get to finish what he started with him. Jason came back for two specific reasons: stop Joker and confront/"reach" Batman. Finding a tidy way to eliminate him before his plans come to any sort of fruition would just make the whole thing more stupid.

He's a great Batman antagonist/foil. Let him go there before you let him go.

[CBikle]

If you're going to bring back dead sidekicks, I think Brubaker's Winter Soldier storyline shows the right way to do it.

Right off the get-go, a "dead sidekick" is a bad concept, because it brings to the forefront the reality why it's very irresponsible for an adult to take on an idealistic teenager into his "war on crime".

Also, aside from his relationships with Superman and the JLA, Batman is a semi-realistic character; the idea of his dead sidekick being brought back as a side effect from a "reality-punch" from the Superboy of a dead alternate Earth...

...doesn't. Quite. Fit.

Ever since ID Crisis, Batman has been "saddled" with stories that don't fit his genre. Magical mindwipes, Batman creating AI satellites that then build their own army of robot and now this.

[The Zapper]

I don't want another vote. At least not one you have to pay for, because DC has all ready shown us that they don't care what people voted for. At least not the current people in charge. If Joker kills Todd again, then maybe it will have been worth it. Maybe. It better be a real good beating he gets too, or I wont be satisfied.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Ever since ID Crisis, Batman has been "saddled" with stories that don't fit his genre. Magical mindwipes, Batman creating AI satellites that then build their own army of robot and now this.

Exactly! That's what really bugs me more than anything about the way they explained this. Batman's role in the greater DCU should never define the core Bat mythos. Superman can get away with it a bit more because the concept itself is slightly more fantastical, but even then most of Supes' history has been self-contained.

Ah, but I'll stop. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, and now that horse is running around decapitating mobsters.

[The Zapper]

Whatever else everyone thinks of Winnick, this was his baby. Whether or not Jason should have come back in the first place (I don't think he should have), his upsetting return will be purposeless if Winnick doesn't get to finish what he started with him.

I couldn't think of a better ending than Winnick's "baby" being taken from him. It's the least he deserves for this crap he's given us.

[Choppa]

See, this is what I'm hoping will be accomplished in either Countdown or Final Crisis. They've already said he's from a different earth (hence the monitors' desire to kill him), so I'm hoping that's where he'll eventually be returned to. "Our" earth is better off without him.

I haven't read any of Countdown or GA, but where exactly did the Monitor say he came from? And wouldn't that mean that this is a different Jason since before IC it was clear that he was from that Earth?

When Batman teamed up with Green Arrow and Ollie brought up Jason, Winnick made it clear that Batman was in total denial about him -- no desire to learn anything. He just wanted the bad guy stopped.

Yeah I took his comments to Alfred about not removing his suit from the cave because "nothing has changed" as him saying that to him Jason is still "dead" and this guy running around is nothing more to him than another villian to stop.

[Jack Zodiac]

I don't think I would've hated the return of Jason Todd so much if his resurrection weren't so contrived and ridiculous. Tying him into Infinite Crisis was worthless. If he'd been revived as part of some elaborate but ultimately unrealize scheme of Ra's al Ghul's, that would've been great, and would've made it more personal. Super-Emo hitting a wall pushes it into the realm of stupidity.

[brundlefly]

If Joker kills Todd again, then maybe it will have been worth it. Maybe. It better be a real good beating he gets too, or I wont be satisfied.

Agreed. I'd love the irony of Joker getting to kill Todd a second time and then be able to reference "getting to kill the same man twice" in the future. I'd stongly prefer that outcome, but the aforementioned shuttling him off to one of the other Earths would be fine, too. Just keep him (and Winnick) far away from the Bat-books, please, now that Dini and Morrison have made them readable again. Frankly, I could not care less about retcon punch-boy's need for further closure with Bruce. If that's seriously all he has left as far as a character motivation is concerned, then fine; let him make nice with Bats and then meet the business end of the Joker's crowbar immediately afterwards.


I couldn't think of a better ending than Winnick's "baby" being taken from him. It's the least he deserves for this crap he's given us.

Also agreed. A very fitting punishment for his horrid run on Batman, in which he made Todd the star and Batman a supporting cast member.

[The Shadow]

I don't want another vote. At least not one you have to pay for, because DC has all ready shown us that they don't care what people voted for.

I'm still waiting for my refund from the first time I voted!

[shaxper]

his horrid run on Batman, in which he made Todd the star and Batman a supporting cast member.

This is exactly why I think giving him a mini-series is a good idea. For those of us who like him, we get to read him. For those of us who dislike him, he can integrate with the Bat Universe without actually appearing in a Bat Title.

For those of us who like Red Hood, we necessarily like Winnick's treatment of him, so it makes sense for him to get the project. For those of you who hate Winnick, well you're not going to be reading it anyway.

For those that hate him mostly because of the stupid retcon punch, a Year One story undoes it.

For those of us who want their say, we get to vote to kill or save him.


So I still think my idea is a crowd pleaser.

[Jack Zodiac]

A very small crowd that just happens to like crappy comics, but a pleased crowd nonetheless. ;)

[shaxper]

A very small crowd that just happens to like crappy comics, but a pleased crowd nonetheless. ;)

Could be worse. I could be licking Morrison's sweaty butt with each page turn ;)

[Jack Zodiac]

There's one thing you can count on. If Morrison had brought Jason Todd back, it may have been crazy as hell and totally !@#$ed up, but it wouldn't've involved some whiney super-!@#$% punching a wall.

[The Zapper]

Could be worse. I could be licking Morrison's sweaty butt with each page turn ;)
LOL. trying to mock Morrison fans isn't going to make Winnick suck any less. The only way to save his reputation would be....oh I don't know.....a ret-con punch.

[Jack Zodiac]

Stop writing for DC and go back to writing kickass Barry Ween books?

[brundlefly]

There's one thing you can count on. If Morrison had brought Jason Todd back, it may have been crazy as hell and totally !@#$ed up, but it wouldn't've involved some whiney super-!@#$% punching a wall.

I'd like to think Morrison wouldn't have bothered to write fan-fiction that resurrected a childhood favorite just because the original vote didn't go his way, like Winnick did. Quite the self-indulgent motivation.


I could be licking Morrison's sweaty butt with each page turn

:confused: Sweaty?

[The Zapper]

:confused: Sweaty? You gotta love it. This thread delivers.

[Choppa]

Isn't Countdown enough? It seems like everyone and their mother knows who Jason Todd is and that he was the Red Hood, died, and is somehow alive again. Wouldn't a mini be overkill?

[Jack Zodiac]

I'd like to think Morrison wouldn't have bothered to write fan-fiction that resurrected a childhood favorite just because the original vote didn't go his way, like Winnick did. Quite the self-indulgent motivation.

That's the thing, though. The return of Jason Todd could've been great. Hell, Marvel brought Bucky back after over forty years, and it worked, but Ed Brubaker's a much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much better writer than Judd Winick. But Jason Todd came back in a ridiculous way, with semi-plausible motivation, but absolutely no direction. Even Winick didn't and doesn't know what the hell to do with him as a character, as is evident of his later appearances in books like Outsiders and Green Arrow.

I don't even think a "Year One" and mini-series would do it, because I don't think Winick really wants to write him anymore. It was a cheap plot device that didn't work, now he's just a crappy character who isn't being used right.

[brundlefly]

Ed Brubaker's a much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much better writer than Judd Winick.

*counting* 10...11...12...yeah, that looks about right. :D

Brubaker did indeed show how to do that kind of resurrection correctly. I wanted to hate it when I started to figure out what was happening partway through (before the actual reveal of the Solider as Bucky), but it was so well-crafted that I couldn't. Also, Bru wrote Bucky as a truly sympathetic character, horrified at what he'd done and all the blood on his hands. Meanwhile Winnick made his "Red Hood" eye-rollingly cliched and overbearing: all slo-mo, two-gun Matrix-y in his fights and his every other line a witheringly sarcastic and knowing one-liner. Ugh. Why were we supposed to be glad to have this character around, much less elbowing his way past Batman to be the focus of the title? Truly the "Poochie" of the Batman books.


It was a cheap plot device that didn't work, now he's just a crappy character who isn't being used right.

Truth. His role in Countdown is like a watered-down knockoff of Roy Harper, what with the flirting with Donna and the weak attempts at humor (ex "we can call you.....Bob!"). But then in Atom he's an angry jerk who brandishes his knife at everybody with little provocation. I still have no idea why he's involved in Countdown at all, unless it's to stick him on one of the other Earths under a new alias (Red Robin) when this is over.

[Violently Apathetic]

Truth. His role in Countdown is like a watered-down knockoff of Roy Harper, what with the flirting with Donna and the weak attempts at humor (ex "we can call you.....Bob!").

You know, maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I don't recall seeing Jason hit on Donna at all, unless talking to a woman qualifies as hitting on her.

I think the character needs to be retired for a few years, or at least until they find him a writer that WANTS to write him and has a clear plan of what to do. I don't think there is such a thing as a character who is broken beyond repair, and I think killing him again at this point would just be lazy (lazy writing has always bothered me more than poor writing with an honest effort). I still think it's an interesting concept, a fallen member of the Batfamily whose gray morals seem much less forced than what occurred with poor Cassandra Cain, they just need a writer with the right amount of dedication and talent to write it properly.

[The Shadow]

isn't going to make Winnick suck any less.

It's Winick.

Only one "N" in his last name.

The Winick (with one N) sucks horribly! I'm not sure about the Winnick with two N's.

[shaxper]

I'd like to think Morrison wouldn't have bothered to write fan-fiction that resurrected a childhood favorite just because the original vote didn't go his way, like Winnick did. Quite the self-indulgent motivation.


You can hate Winnick all you like, but DC was in a difficult place after they teased fans with a Jason appearance during Hush. Were fans just supposed to shrug that moment off and move on? Winnick didn't start the whole Jason thing. He just took the helm when it was time for someone to finally explain what the hell was going on.

I'll readily agree that Batman Annual #25 is an absolute piece of crap but, beyond that one regrettable and unforgettable issue, I don't see anything that Winnick specifically did wrong in his handling of Jason.

For all we know, retcon punch came from an editorial mandate to tie Jason's return into Infinite Crisis.



Isn't Countdown enough? It seems like everyone and their mother knows who Jason Todd is and that he was the Red Hood, died, and is somehow alive again. Wouldn't a mini be overkill?

The reason Countdown isn't enough is because that Jason is entirely out of character. He's a complete blasphemy to anyone that actually enjoys the resurrected Jason Todd as a character. I'm guessing that's because this Jason is from another Earth. But still, he's only Jason Todd in name.

[Jack Zodiac]

I'll readily agree that Batman Annual #25 is an absolute piece of crap but, beyond that one regrettable and unforgettable issue, I don't see anything that Winnick specifically did wrong in his handling of Jason.

In Batman, he had motivation for revenge, but nothing came of it. An anti-climactic ending to his equally lackluster run interrupted by Infinite Crisis and OYL. And since then, Jason's been handled even worse by Winick in Outsiders and Green Arrow. He's basically a crappy villain with some of Batman's training. No more mentor/protogé drive, just him being a cheap, uninteresting villain. No more revenge motivation, just crappy characterization.

It makes me wonder if Winick had any idea what he was going to do with him when he brought him back in the first place, or if he just did it as a bad plot device or to pander to that craptastic revelation in "Hush."

[shaxper]

In Batman, he had motivation for revenge, but nothing came of it. An anti-climactic ending to his equally lackluster run interrupted by Infinite Crisis and OYL.

You've answered your own question, there. Infinite Crisis and OYL interrupted it. I can't imagine how any writer could have done the first part of that last story and not had a desire to tell the rest. Winnick had been building to Jason's confrontation with the Joker since the first moment Jason appeared as "The Red Hood." It was cut short. That's like watching the first two thirds of a film and judging it for not finishing.

Incidentally, Jason has explicitly stated that his mission was never revenge -- it was to finish notoriously murderous criminals once and for all. His death only opened his eyes to the fact that the Joker was the biggest of these murderous criminals, desperately in need of being taken down.


And since then, Jason's been handled even worse by Winick in Outsiders and Green Arrow. He's basically a crappy villain with some of Batman's training. No more mentor/protogé drive, just him being a cheap, uninteresting villain. No more revenge motivation, just crappy characterization.

He appeared on one page in the Outsiders. I personally feel that his appearance in Green Arrow was excellent. Yes, there was a specific motivation and drive behind what he did in that arc I felt it was all quite clear. By planting doubt in Speedy, he wanted Bruce to see that Jason wasn't just "crazy." That there was a basis for his mission, and someone else in a similar situation would be able to see it just as clearly.



We've been fighting over Winnick in numerous threads now, and it seems like the only complaints you've made about him that held any weight were that he wasted the premise of Green Arrow OYL and depicts HIV positive people in his comics a lot. Other than that, I just don't see what your beef is.

[Jack Zodiac]

That's because you like his crappy plots and dialogue! We can't have an objective conversation about the guy so long as you think like that.

And I wouldn't give him a free pass for his unfinished Batman run. He's in-the-know, he had to have known his run would end with an Infinite Crisis tie-in and lead into OYL. Too many writers get a free pass because of that, and yes, it's editorial's fault too, but they aren't the only ones to blame.

[shaxper]

That's because you like his crappy plots and dialogue! We can't have an objective conversation about the guy so long as you think like that.

Well, you're right on that account. There's no debating taste, much like with the Morrison issue, but you keep bringing up specific complaints against him that don't fly. If you just say "I don't like his writing," I can understand that. Leave it to me to take care of Winnick's sweaty butt, and you can take care of Morrison's.


And I wouldn't give him a free pass for his unfinished Batman run. He's in-the-know, he had to have known his run would end with an Infinite Crisis tie-in and lead into OYL. Too many writers get a free pass because of that, and yes, it's editorial's fault too, but they aren't the only ones to blame.

It's not that I think he didn't have enough time to finish. I think he was led to believe (or mistakenly assumed) that OYL would eventually address his unfinished story, explaining the aftermath and showing long term repercussions. That was certainly what I expected from OYL. It happened in Green Arrow, possible because Winnick was the one who took over OYL. That entire year followed the repercussions of the final OYL issue. But other titles, like Nightwing, which left with a monstrous cliff-hanger, were ignored until long after.

So I do think Winnick deserves a free pass on that one. He left a perfect setup that no-one bothered to follow through with.

[The Zapper]

It's Winick.

Only one "N" in his last name.

The Winick (with one N) sucks horribly! I'm not sure about the Winnick with two N's.

I must hate his writing so much it makes me misspell his name.

[Captain Jim]

Let's not forget that there *was* a plan for what to do with Jason after IC... he was to become the new Nightwing. It was when that plan was changed at the last minute (for which I'm immensely grateful) that DC suddenly had no idea what to do with him.

[Captain Jim]

I haven't read any of Countdown or GA, but where exactly did the Monitor say [Jason] came from?

From Countdown #38 (back-up story): "At least three beings from other universes have recently walked your earth, brother, contaminating everything they come in contact with. Donna Troy. Kyle Rayner. Jason Todd. For the sake of all we hold dear, they must be exterminated."

So he doesn't really say what earth they're from; only that they're not from ours.

And wouldn't that mean that this is a different Jason since before IC it was clear that he was from that Earth?

I think it's going to be revealed that what everyone thought earlier was wrong.

[Choppa]

This is off topic, but I want some feedback. If this Joker origin in Confidential is canon and doesn't have Joker being the Red Hood, then Jason taking on that identity no longer makes sense does it?

[Vulgar]

My take on the whole Jason Todd thing is that people were open to the idea of him coming back, the concept was okay the execution wasn't. Todd came back and all of a sudden he's the best. He can stand up to Batman in hand to hand, manages to take out anyone in his way, and make the joker stop laughing. All this just came across like Winnick writing his dream character as the be all and all. That being said I wouldn't mind more stories with him, just as long as he's given an actual personality and actually has some weaknesses.

[Captain Jim]

This is off topic, but I want some feedback. If this Joker origin in Confidential is canon and doesn't have Joker being the Red Hood, then Jason taking on that identity no longer makes sense does it?

Well, first we have to deal with the two big "if"s:

IF it's canon and
IF it doesn't have Joker being Red Hood.

We don't know either at the moment.

[stillanerd]

If Jason Todd came back in Hush instead of being a red herring, and it was explained that it was solely the result of the Lazarus Pit, it certainly would've made for a much better result, not the Superboy Prime's Retcon Punch which has now become a catchphrase that's synonymous with a half-baked and unintentionally hilarious way to change to continuity. Likewise, Hush would've been a better character as a result, not the male "Mary-Sue" we got thanks to A.J. Lieberman. Of course, the writing should have been on the wall that Judd Winnick's writing about the real return of Jason Todd when he said over and over "It's not important how Jason Todd has come back from the dead, but that he is back from the dead." Umm, yes it was, Judd. Resurrecting a character can only work IF you have a plausible explanation for it, not something you just pull out of your butt.

[shaxper]

My take on the whole Jason Todd thing is that people were open to the idea of him coming back, the concept was okay the execution wasn't. Todd came back and all of a sudden he's the best. He can stand up to Batman in hand to hand, manages to take out anyone in his way, and make the joker stop laughing. All this just came across like Winnick writing his dream character as the be all and all. That being said I wouldn't mind more stories with him, just as long as he's given an actual personality and actually has some weaknesses.

I definitely see your points, here.

I'm not sure Winick was necessarily painting Jason to be the character he always dreamed of, though. I think he was using him as the conflict he'd always dreamed of. What I loved so much about Winick's treatment was that we never saw things from Jason's point of view. It was never about him. It was about what he did to Batman as both a foil and a reminder of his greatest failure. Where others see a Jason dominated story, I see a story that's very much about Batman's fears, uncertainties, and moral struggles. If anything, I don't think Winick was interested in Jason enough. He was using him as a dramatic tool, devoid of human quirks and failings. Jason was made able to one-up Batman because an inferior rival wouldn't have been able to get under Bruce's skin in the same way.

[The Zapper]

This is off topic, but I want some feedback. If this Joker origin in Confidential is canon and doesn't have Joker being the Red Hood, then Jason taking on that identity no longer makes sense does it?

I wouldn't count on that story becoming the new canon.

[Lorendiac]

You can hate Winnick all you like, but DC was in a difficult place after they teased fans with a Jason appearance during Hush. Were fans just supposed to shrug that moment off and move on?

Absolutely! That's exactly what they were supposed to do! I read "Hush" as it came out, and after it was all over I was perfectly ready to say (re: the "Jason is back" stunt in the graveyard) that "it was a nice attempt to trick us" and then just move on. Of course, I speak as a guy who -- as a schoolboy in the early-to-mid 80s -- was a big fan of the Pre-Crisis Jason Todd at the time, but who can easily live without the Post-Crisis "I'm Probably a Murderous Vigilante" Jason Todd that Jim Starlin inflicted upon us.

[Lorendiac]

Let's not forget that there *was* a plan for what to do with Jason after IC... he was to become the new Nightwing. It was when that plan was changed at the last minute (for which I'm immensely grateful) that DC suddenly had no idea what to do with him.

For what this parallel is worth: Your summary of the fluctuating plans for Dick and Jason suddenly reminds me of the Clone Saga of Marvel's Spider-titles in the mid-90s. The original plan was that "Ben Reilly," the carbon copy of Peter who'd been secretly wandering around in the the background for a good many years, was supposed to a) turn out to be the original instead of the clone, and b) Permanently Replace "Boring Old Married Peter" in the role of the One and Only Official Spider-Man from that day forward!

It was when that plan was changed that Marvel suddenly had no idea what to do with him . . . so after some further floundering around, they killed him off and now I understand he only gets mentioned once in a blue moon in modern continuity (if that often) -- Marvel has basically tried to sweep Ben Reilly under the rug as a huge embarrassment that they don't quite have the guts to say has been erased via retcon.

I think DC could actually learn something from that -- kill Jason off, sweep him under the rug, never let him be mentioned again, and move forward. That's really as much of a "solution" to the Jason Todd problem as I for one require of them! No need to stretch it out too long by going back and rewriting the flimsy excuse for his return from the dead or anything like that! :)

[brundlefly]

but DC was in a difficult place after they teased fans with a Jason appearance during Hush. Were fans just supposed to shrug that moment off and move on? Winnick didn't start the whole Jason thing. He just took the helm when it was time for someone to finally explain what the hell was going on.

Frankly? Yes, they were. It was just a cliffhanger tease, nothing more; didn't need "explaining" since it was just Clayface impersonating Jason. If Clayface had instead morphed into, say, Thomas Wayne in order to mess with Batman's head on Hush's orders, would Winick have needed to "explain what was going on" by fully resurrecting him, based on a few pages of impersonation? I certainly don't recall a vocal and outraged majority of Batman readers clamoring for Jason Todd's resurrection following Hush and putting DC in a "difficult place." It was Winick's own fanboy self-indulgence that resurrected Todd, not overwhelming reader demand.

[shaxper]

Frankly? Yes, they were. It was just a cliffhanger tease, nothing more; didn't need "explaining" since it was just Clayface impersonating Jason. If Clayface had instead morphed into, say, Thomas Wayne in order to mess with Batman's head on Hush's orders, would Winick have needed to "explain what was going on" by fully resurrecting him, based on a few pages of impersonation? I certainly don't recall a vocal and outraged majority of Batman readers clamoring for Jason Todd's resurrection following Hush and putting DC in a "difficult place." It was Winick's own fanboy self-indulgence that resurrected Todd, not overwhelming reader demand.

I guess I overheard different conversations than you did back then. Many of the people I was talking to were assuming there must have been some larger reason behind throwing that in there. Honestly, I've never read Hush. There was a giant span of time during which I wasn't reading comics, and Hush happened right smack in the middle. But I heard EVERYONE talking about this, even when I wasn't interested in comics at the time. The people I heard weren't ready to let it go.

So, clearly, some people needed a follow-up.

[Lorendiac]

I guess I overheard different conversations than you did back then. Many of the people I was talking to were assuming there must have been some larger reason behind throwing that in there. Honestly, I've never read Hush. There was a giant span of time during which I wasn't reading comics, and Hush happened right smack in the middle. But I heard EVERYONE talking about this, even when I wasn't interested in comics at the time. The people I heard weren't ready to let it go.

So, clearly, some people needed a follow-up.

Thanks for explaining that. I didn't realize you hadn't read "Hush" yourself! My advice would be to go read "Hush" when you can find the chance, and then judge for yourself whether or not DC really had set a trap for itself that "needed" to be resolved by any follow-up material relating to Jason Todd and/or or his impersonator. :)

[brundlefly]

Thanks for explaining that. I didn't realize you hadn't read "Hush" yourself! My advice would be to go read "Hush" when you can find the chance, and then judge for yourself whether or not DC really had set a trap for itself that "needed" to be resolved by any follow-up material relating to Jason Todd and/or or his impersonator. :)

Agreed; you really should read the actual story, for reference if nothing else. You'll see that it's a minor plot point, a cliffhanger tease, and was clearly explained within the following issue as not being Jason Todd. No confusion, no need for followup explanations. Just a red herring to the central "who is Hush" mystery, as other candidates for that reveal included Harvey Dent at the time. A resurrected Todd was hardly the only possible suspect, nor was it a mean-spirited "trap" that DC had set and then suddenly changed their minds about. Todd was never originally meant to really return from the dead in Hush; it was Winick who saw his opportunity afterwards to shoehorn in the return of his childhood favorite based on those few pages of impersonation. And he's openly admitted as much in interviews following Under The Hood.

[Buried Alien]

One thing I'm having trouble with as far as Jason Todd today is concerned is connecting him back to the character who was Robin after Dick Grayson became Nightwing. The current Jason refers so seldom back to his Robin days that sometimes, you forget that this was the Robin who died.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Bat_Fan2232]

If Jason Todd came back in Hush instead of being a red herring, and it was explained that it was solely the result of the Lazarus Pit, it certainly would've made for a much better result, not the Superboy Prime's Retcon Punch which has now become a catchphrase that's synonymous with a half-baked and unintentionally hilarious way to change to continuity. Likewise, Hush would've been a better character as a result, not the male "Mary-Sue" we got thanks to A.J. Lieberman. Of course, the writing should have been on the wall that Judd Winnick's writing about the real return of Jason Todd when he said over and over "It's not important how Jason Todd has come back from the dead, but that he is back from the dead." Umm, yes it was, Judd. Resurrecting a character can only work IF you have a plausible explanation for it, not something you just pull out of your butt.

QFT best comment ive read on this subject ever i can say no more i agree sir

[alabama assassin]

i just hope he doesn't die in countdown or final crisis. i liked reading about him in under the hood 1 and 2 and countdown.

[Crowforge]

How about this? The Joker kills Jason batman loses it and kills Joker. He's is comforted by Wonder Woman and I am a Happy crow.

[Choppa]

Well, first we have to deal with the two big "if"s:

IF it's canon and
IF it doesn't have Joker being Red Hood.

We don't know either at the moment.

I wouldn't count on that story becoming the new canon.

I thought it was well established that the Confidential arc is indeed canon?

[Captain Jim]

I thought it was well established that the Confidential arc is indeed canon?

I've never heard the matter addressed one way or another.

[Captain Jim]

Todd was never originally meant to really return from the dead in Hush...

I'm not so sure about that. The rumor at the time was that Loeb had indeed intended for Jason to be Hush all along, but that DC got cold feet and pulled the plug on that part of the story. It's not really that difficult to believe, either, as that part of the story seems somewhat contrived and out of left field.

Possibly the reason for this (I'm speculating now) was that Loeb had no plan on what to do with Jason afterwards. Later on, in walks Winick with his plan to bring Jason back as "Batman's worst nightmare." TPTB buy it, Winick writes the story and decides to incorporate that piece of Hush into it, saying, "No, it really was Jason after all."

Makes sense to me.

[The Zapper]

I thought it was well established that the Confidential arc is indeed canon?

How many "canon" stories have come and gone fairly quickly for trying to miss with things that don't need messed with? Especially with characters like the Joker? This story will either just be forgotten about, or it'll be ret-conned away as one of Joker's multiple choice origins. It's going to take a book that can at least compete with The Killing Joke in terms of popularity before DC is going to really stand behind a Joker origin.

[Jack Zodiac]

I'm not so sure about that. The rumor at the time was that Loeb had indeed intended for Jason to be Hush all along, but that DC got cold feet and pulled the plug on that part of the story. It's not really that difficult to believe, either, as that part of the story seems somewhat contrived and out of left field.

And the last thing that story needed to be was more contrived and out of left field.

[davids]

Two ohone calls 50 cents each to kill the little bastard and after all thses years DC brought him back. I feel so,,,so,,, used!

Mavbe they can get superboy prime punch me back my buck?:mad:

[Captain Jim]

How many "canon" stories have come and gone fairly quickly for trying to miss with things that don't need messed with?

You mean like giving Batman a kid? :rolleyes:

[The Zapper]

Two wrongs don't make a right, and two crappy stories don't make a good one. If you really think this is going to stick as Joker's real origin, then go ahead. History shows us otherwise though.

[The Zapper]

This thread has me thinking of Death in the Family. So I reread it this morning, and on the back cover of the TPB there are several quotes about Robin's death. One such quote was from Denny O'Neil "It would be a really sleazy stunt to bring him back.". I think that pretty much sums it up better than anything I could say myself.

[Violently Apathetic]

Of course Mr. O' Neil later said that he regretted the entire 'Death of a Robin' thing and wishes he had kept his mouth shut.

I thought 'A Death in the Family' was a pretty crappy story that had largely lost its significance when it failed to change Batman in any significant way, so I was more than happy to see it undone. That's not to say I think Jason Todd has been particularly well handled since his resurrection, just that I don't feel it was any great crime to bring him back.

[The Zapper]

What happened after Death in the Family failed to change Batman in any significant way.

[Choppa]

I have no doubt that the Confidential arc will be forgotten soon enough. In fact, it's pretty ridiculous for DC to say that anything is canon in the Batman universe since we have such a vague timeline with more holes than swiss cheese.

I'm really just trying to point out that the editorial people aren't doing a very good job of keeping things cohesive, not that have in a while.

[yourverysilly]

you know...it's just crazy enough that it might just work.

[karaokefanboy]

What happened after Death in the Family failed to change Batman in any significant way.

For a year, Batman struggled with the loss of his partner, becoming more reckless and violent. Further, right up to the "Hush" storyline, we had several issues featuring Bruce's further lament about Jason, from Clayface taking Todd's shape in "The Mud Pack," to the Scarecrow's illusions in "Knightfall," to that 'Tec issue in which Bruce takes Batgirl to Jason's grave (obviously a teaser for "Hush," but significant nevertheless). I think an entire generation of readers post-"A Death in the Family" were drawn to Jason, not as a character, but as an unspoken mission for Batman, not to be so reckless with his partners again. Not to take them for granted.

So, years worth of subplot, culminated in an essentially faux return, not significant? Only in the contrast to its meager resolution, more money-grubbing, unoriginal "canon" fodder.

Or is "a significant way" determined by the number of multi-title crossovers it spawns? It isn't enough that JUST Batman's title was changed for a long time?

[The Zapper]

You may want to take my post into context before you try to give me a lecture about Batman history Karaokefanboy. Just an idea.

[Captain Jim]

You may want to take my post into context before you try to give me a lecture about Batman history Karaokefanboy. Just an idea.

I don't see it as a "lecture" and I don't see anything wrong with what he said.

[Violently Apathetic]

I don't see it as a "lecture" and I don't see anything wrong with what he said.

I think the problem is that Karaokefanboy was earnestly responding to a tongue in cheek comment The Zapper made to me. If anthing Karakefanboy’s post should have been directed towards me, as I was the one who claimed that Jason’s death failed to change Batman in any significant way.

[The Zapper]

I think the problem is that Karaokefanboy was earnestly responding to a tongue in cheek comment The Zapper made to me. If anthing Karakefanboy’s post should have been directed towards me, as I was the one who claimed that Jason’s death failed to change Batman in any significant way.

DING DING DING! We have a winner!

[Rupertmetal]

I think Jason would be better served as a Batman focused character rather than DC Universe in general. That's where his story is.

I totally agree with you. He shouldn't even be in Count Down or Final Crisis.

And if he has to be in them, he should just show up and kill some bad guys, like Joker did in Infinite Crisis.

I just really like the character, but I guess he is going away to another planet or he is gonna change into Red Robin?

Whatever. Jason being an extreme Batman (willing to kill bad guys) lurking in Gotham, plotting to kill the Joker and trying to sway side kicks to his way of thinking (like Green Arrow's girl) is cool.

If he is used any other way it's stupid.

And the idea of Joker beating him to death now is dumb. That is like saying Joker could beat Shiva or Cassandra to death. Jason is all grown up now.

[GeorgeG]

You do either of the two:

1. Show that the "Superpunch" was just the delusions of The Joker. That the whole issue, where they get blown up again was nothing more than what was going on in Joker's head.

OR

2. We've learned that Jason Todd is from another world/universe. Okay, got it.

Let it be revealed that the "real" Jason Todd has been around all this time and is a member of Checkmate.

Now, you'll want how he survived. Try this for either 1 or 2.

I think I wrote this somewhere before, so bear w/ me if you've read it already.

Back when Jason Todd was Robin, The Joker injected him with a chemical solution that immobilizes the victim making him appear dead. If anyone's a fan of the show The Pretender, you saw it in the "Christmas George" episode.

So, the "joke" has been on Batman all this time. That he buried his Robin alive.

This is something that would be quite fitting for The Joker to do.

With Batman's grief and the thought that Robin had died due to the explosion, he arranged for a quick burial.

Jason "awakened" from his condition within the coffin, buried alive. He made his way out and has held a grudge ever since. And since he's been under the radar, he has honed his training skills, etc.

The present Jason Todd can be The Red Hood, while the "new" Jason Todd as I have just described can be shown to be the real force behind Checkmate.

[Joe Acro]

2. We've learned that Jason Todd is from another world/universe. Okay, got it.
The current Jason Todd is not from another universe. Perhaps you could say so within that story you've got, but we don't currently know that.

[Captain Jim]

You do either of the two:

1. Show that the "Superpunch" was just the delusions of The Joker. That the whole issue, where they get blown up again was nothing more than what was going on in Joker's head.

OR

2. We've learned that Jason Todd is from another world/universe. Okay, got it.

Let it be revealed that the "real" Jason Todd has been around all this time and is a member of Checkmate.

Now, you'll want how he survived. Try this for either 1 or 2.

I think I wrote this somewhere before, so bear w/ me if you've read it already.

Back when Jason Todd was Robin, The Joker injected him with a chemical solution that immobilizes the victim making him appear dead. If anyone's a fan of the show The Pretender, you saw it in the "Christmas George" episode.

So, the "joke" has been on Batman all this time. That he buried his Robin alive.

This is something that would be quite fitting for The Joker to do.

With Batman's grief and the thought that Robin had died due to the explosion, he arranged for a quick burial.

Jason "awakened" from his condition within the coffin, buried alive. He made his way out and has held a grudge ever since. And since he's been under the radar, he has honed his training skills, etc.

The present Jason Todd can be The Red Hood, while the "new" Jason Todd as I have just described can be shown to be the real force behind Checkmate.



Personally, ONE Jason is more than enough for me.

[Choppa]

And the story presented for his return is complicated enough

[Buried Alien]

I wish Jason would be given something substantial to do in COUNTDOWN. He's not exactly annoying me, but so far, he seems to just be a long for the ride. Just exactly what is Jason Todd supposed to contribute in this merry band of multiversal pilgrims?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)