Confidential #8

[Captain Jim]

I'm still enjoying this story, even though this issue was pretty unremarkable. Joker-to-be barely appears; it's mostly about Bruce. In fact, it lends substance to what someone said last month: this story seems to be as much about Batman as about the Joker.

[Murrocko]

What exactly went down? I stopped buying this series after issue two. Really didn't care for it, but this joker stuff got me kinda interested to say the least.

[Bat_Fan2232]

*spoiler* *spoiler* dont know how to tag it so *spoiler**spoiler*

*spoiler*

its mostly about bats hunt for the joker as he feels he let gotham down because the joker is on a killing spree, also it looks like the batcave is coming together.. seeing as how high tech batman has always been. when alfred was working on the super computer i found it funny when he old bruce to use the lap-top" also bruce at the end of the issue seems to have another damzel in distress, im betting she dies. Just to give bruce another lvl of hatred towards the joker.


*spoiler*

[Mia]

Well! I just picked up my books and I had a quick flip through this issue. That scene with Bruce and that woman getting hot and heavy...just made me blush :o . Never expected to see that happen in a batbook. Not that I'm complaining but wow!!! I'm blushing under my bonnet!:D

[Captain Jim]

*spoiler* *spoiler* dont know how to tag it

[spoil ] [/spoil ]

......

[jerrymcl89]

Well, I think it's largely about how Batman's presence is essential to the creation of the Joker, which I think is an important element that ties them closer together.

[alabama assassin]

this arc has really got me intrigued. Will we see the full joker look before it's ending? I'm kinda worried for the hot museum lady's well being after that conclusion. the owner of my shop has told me that this book doesn't sell too well, which is sad since i'm enjoying it more than batman monthly.

[Captain Jim]

Will we see the full joker look before it's ending?

Confidential #10: "This is where it happens: the birth of the Joker! Discover exactly what Batman's involvement was in the creation of unfettered evil!"

http://www.dccomics.com/media/covers/8141_180x270.jpg

i'm enjoying it more than batman monthly.

Me too, at least during this arc. :)

[The Xenos]

Eh. I dunno. I'ms till in the camp that doesn't see why we need another origin for the Joker. Killing Joke was more than enough.

DC seems to not under stand that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Nevermind don't fix it multiple times with multiple writers and make sure you hire someone from Hollywood from a fad of the week TV show who has never really read any Batman stories.

[jv2k]

I liked seeing batman running around chasing after the joker but I preferred last weeks issue better. It's still a pretty solid story story though. I also was surprised to see such an explicit sex scene in a Batbook.

[Captain Jim]

someone... who has never really read any Batman stories.

Do you know that for a fact?

[Captain Jim]

I also was surprised to see such an explicit sex scene in a Batbook.

Now you're going to make everyone wonder what they missed. ;)

Well, "explicit" in that we definitely know what was going on, but all the body parts were concealed under a sheet.

[z0mbie_aut0pil0t]

I don't read any of the other Batman titles besides this one. I think it's been great so far. I like how their switching writers every arc to keep it fresh. I think Marc Guggenheim has a run comin' up. Sweeeet.

[The Xenos]

Do you know that for a fact?

I got the impression from the interview that the guy who wrote it mainly knew the characters from film and TV. I thought he said or gave the impression he wasn't a regular reader. I could be wrong. I do remember being very disappointed in the interview with this familiarity with the characters.

[alabama assassin]

Eh. I dunno. I'ms till in the camp that doesn't see why we need another origin for the Joker. Killing Joke was more than enough.

DC seems to not under stand that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Nevermind don't fix it multiple times with multiple writers and make sure you hire someone from Hollywood from a fad of the week TV show who has never really read any Batman stories.

some of us new guys have never read the killing joke, so let us have our fun. also, if it is such a literary masterpiece then why is it not in current publication?

[elias_A]

some of us new guys have never read the killing joke, so let us have our fun. also, if it is such a literary masterpiece then why is it not in current publication?

It is:
http://www.amazon.com/DC-Universe-Stories-Alan-Moore/dp/1401209270/ref=sr_1_1/105-3742175-6882862?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187011359&sr=1-1
And despite your sarcasm, Killing Joke is overwhelmingly agreed to be one of the most important Batman stories of all time.

[Captain Jim]

It is:
http://www.amazon.com/DC-Universe-Stories-Alan-Moore/dp/1401209270/ref=sr_1_1/105-3742175-6882862?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187011359&sr=1-1

It does indeed appear that DC feels that since Killing Joke is now included in this volume, there is no need for separate publication anymore. (Didio implied as much in an answer to a question at Chicago.)

And despite your sarcasm, Killing Joke is overwhelmingly agreed to be one of the most important Batman stories of all time.

I think it's a great story (though I've heard that Moore himself doesn't care too much for it). And I'm sure it's on the short-list of many people's favorite bat-tales. But I'm a little reluctant to label it "one of the most important Batman stories of all time."

More to the point, Killing Joke doesn't claim to have the definitive origin story and it's bizarre that so many people insist on treating it as if it did. You really don't have to choose between these two storylines.

[elias_A]

It does indeed appear that DC feels that since Killing Joke is now included in this volume, there is no need for separate publication anymore. (Didio implied as much in an answer to a question at Chicago.)



I think it's a great story (though I've heard that Moore himself doesn't care too much for it). And I'm sure it's on the short-list of many people's favorite bat-tales. But I'm a little reluctant to label it "one of the most important Batman stories of all time."

More to the point, Killing Joke doesn't claim to have the definitive origin story and it's bizarre that so many people insist on treating it as if it did. You really don't have to choose between these two storylines.

OK, I'm not exactly sure how I would define "important" now, but I meant it in the sense of famous, critically acclaimed and influential.

Personally I like it but it's hardly one of my favorite Batman stories.
(But a lot better than Frank Miller's 80s stuff - yes, I'm a strange person.)

But I always considered it to be the "true" Joker origin, even if it wasn't intended that way.
And since I'm pretty sure most people (and writers I guess) did the same for two decades now, a new origin story would cause a lot of confusion, even if it's good.
But maybe it's worth that price. I don't know, I will get the trade if it gets good reviews.

[alabama assassin]

the alan moore collection certainly beats these prices

http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Killing-Joke-Alan-Moore/dp/0930289455/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1626283-9250321?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187066687&sr=1-1

[Captain Jim]

Given the reasonable price on the new trade, there's really no reason for them to continue to reprint it by itself.

Btw, would you believe my local comic shop has one of the later printings in its bargin bin?

[swedishmeatballs]

I went to the con and there was going to be a hard cover rerelease with Batman and Joker action figures. I took some pics at the DC Direct table at SDCC. I will post them ASAP.

[Paul Dee]

More to the point, Killing Joke doesn't claim to have the definitive origin story and it's bizarre that so many people insist on treating it as if it did. You really don't have to choose between these two storylines.

I thought the majority of objections were about how The Killing Joke shows how the Joker shouldn't really have a definitive origin and yet this Confidential arc claims to show exactly that? That was my initial response to it anyway (and yet I still enjoy this arc so far)

[Captain Jim]

I thought the majority of objections were about how The Killing Joke shows how the Joker shouldn't really have a definitive origin and yet this Confidential arc claims to show exactly that? That was my initial response to it anyway (and yet I still enjoy this arc so far)

TKJ does not provide a definitive origin and a number of readers liked the fact that it didn't. But I don't see how anyone can claim that TKJ says the Joker *shouldn't* have a definitive origin, just because it doesn't provide one.

[The Xenos]

I just checked my copy. Yes, the Joker says it's like multiple choice. HE says sometimes he remembers it one way. Sometimes he remembers it another.

Yet that shouldn't be an excuse for DC to keep making up new origins. Or even worse, now they want to say this is THE definitive story and replaces the one told in Killing Joke. Plus they got the writer from some popular TV show to do it, not a long time Batman reader or writer. To me, that's the lamest part. It seems a very top down editorial decision. It just sounds so artificial. Plus I think it's a trend that betrays comics, getting some big name from some Hollywood movie or show first and looking at their familiarity with the character second.

Killing Joke was good. DC should realize just what an amazing story Killing Joke is. Why try to reinvent the wheel? It's not broke. Don't fix it.

In the original version, Joker wasn't a criminal or a bad person. He got mixed up with the mob and foolishly did a job. The the fight he gets knocked into a tank. That's all it took to create Batman's greatest foe, the most insane criminal he ever faced. "One bad day." That's chilling. That's a brilliant origin. That's a classic line. Why DC would ever want to tinker with it is beyond me.

[Bat_Fan2232]

again some of us have never read killing joke so let us have our fun, i enjoy it very much and am anxious to see how it turns out i have ordered killing joke but wont be reading it until i finsih the confidental set.

You older dudes can have your origin story of the older generation and let us young guys keep this one

[The Xenos]

Um.. no. You could just go read Killing Joke. It's absolutely idiotic that DC isn't smart enough to direct you 'kids these days' to read Killing Joke instead of making a half assed new origin. Okay, maybe not young kids, but they shouldn't be reading 80% of Batman books out there anyway.

Hell, why not have someone rewrite Hamlet or 1984 or Fahrenheit 451 while you're at it?

Then agian Hollywood is brainwashing kids into seeing crappy remake after crappy remake and their sequels instead of actually checking out the original film. So maybe I shouldn't be surprised the idiot Hollywood minded people who run DC are following suit.

Never mind how this is just another big 'f--- you' to Alan Moore from those loveable folks at AOL Time Warner comics.

[Chad]

Just want to point out that this storyline isn't retconning The Killing Joke - it's retconning Gotham Knights 50-55. The Killing Joke was rendered non-canonical by DC back in 2004 but seeing as how that's already been forgotten, I can't help but think that a big deal's being made about nothing.

[The Zapper]

The Killing Joke was rendered non-canonical by DC back in 2004
Yet Barbara always remained in the chair:p DC is awesome that way.

[mattx110]

I just checked my copy. Yes, the Joker says it's like multiple choice. HE says sometimes he remembers it one way. Sometimes he remembers it another.

Yet that shouldn't be an excuse for DC to keep making up new origins. Or even worse, now they want to say this is THE definitive story and replaces the one told in Killing Joke. Plus they got the writer from some popular TV show to do it, not a long time Batman reader or writer. To me, that's the lamest part. It seems a very top down editorial decision. It just sounds so artificial. Plus I think it's a trend that betrays comics, getting some big name from some Hollywood movie or show first and looking at their familiarity with the character second.

Killing Joke was good. DC should realize just what an amazing story Killing Joke is. Why try to reinvent the wheel? It's not broke. Don't fix it.

In the original version, Joker wasn't a criminal or a bad person. He got mixed up with the mob and foolishly did a job. The the fight he gets knocked into a tank. That's all it took to create Batman's greatest foe, the most insane criminal he ever faced. "One bad day." That's chilling. That's a brilliant origin. That's a classic line. Why DC would ever want to tinker with it is beyond me.

in the new version he had "two bad days" when he turned to crime, and when he got chemically altered. it's all good. none of this should ruin joker stories in the future, so yea, you can be a little upset, but don't let it affect you too much.

[elias_A]

Just want to point out that this storyline isn't retconning The Killing Joke - it's retconning Gotham Knights 50-55. The Killing Joke was rendered non-canonical by DC back in 2004 but seeing as how that's already been forgotten, I can't help but think that a big deal's being made about nothing.

Oh, why did you have to remind me?! :evilangry

That GK story was much worse, it referenced the Killing Joke, but retconned some important details. So that in the author's mind I guess anytime you read TKJ again you would have to think "Ah, but it REALLY happened differently" so that he could cheat his way into a legend.

[Paul Dee]

Just want to point out that this storyline isn't retconning The Killing Joke - it's retconning Gotham Knights 50-55. The Killing Joke was rendered non-canonical by DC back in 2004 but seeing as how that's already been forgotten, I can't help but think that a big deal's being made about nothing.

I'd forgotten about that story (as I'm sure everyone else did) - good point. Haha, let's wait for the scores of angry AJ Lieberman fans to storm in. Oh, hang on...


But yeah, that story was daft in that it showed that the Joker's history in the Killing Joke was set in stone - as it was observed by another individual with fairly reputable authority. Which goes against the point of the Killing Joke anyway. As others have said, this new Confidential arc doesn't negate the Killing Joke as such and certainly doesn't need to force it out of continuity (no reason why the events in TKJ can't have happened and I certainly cannot be bothered with a Barbara Gordon story which puts her in a wheelchair to clean up the mess left by removing The Killing Joke from continuity) but it's just a shame they feel the need to give him a definitive origin as I feel he works best with an undefined mysterious past ("How can 2 people who don't know each other hate each other so much?")


Whoever made the point about this new origin having to include something to do with the Red Hood made a good observation though.

[The Xenos]

Just want to point out that this storyline isn't retconning The Killing Joke - it's retconning Gotham Knights 50-55. The Killing Joke was rendered non-canonical by DC back in 2004 but seeing as how that's already been forgotten, I can't help but think that a big deal's being made about nothing.

Um.. pretty much no one was reading Gotham Knights back then and people ignored that crappy story too. I hope they do the same for this one. That story was an unneeded piece of garbage and so is this. To its credit at least this one doesn't involve Hush and doesn't trail off into nowhere.

Though this one I dropped by the first issue where it took me until the second issue of that Gotham Knights arc. I guess that means I'm learning. Fool me once, shame on DC...

in the new version he had "two bad days" when he turned to crime, and when he got chemically altered. it's all good. none of this should ruin joker stories in the future, so yea, you can be a little upset, but don't let it affect you too much.

Um.. They took a story I liked, one that many considered a classic and decided they wanted a more shallow one written by someone who seems not to know the characters too well.

No it's not 'all good'.

[Paul Dee]

Forget The Killing Joke/Gotham Knights - has anyone wondered how this affects the end of Year One? If this is in continuity (which I'm fairly certain it is based on the fact I'm sure I read so somewhere and also fail to see the point in doing stories based on early pivotal experiences if they don't actually have repercussions or inform the character in some way) then it doesn't mesh well with the end of Miller's Year One does it? The timeframe's all wrong.

[Captain Jim]

Um.. pretty much no one was reading Gotham Knights back then and people ignored that crappy story too. I hope they do the same for this one. That story was an unneeded piece of garbage and so is this.

That's simply your opinion, based on reading but a fraction of the story. I'm enjoying it a lot--certainly more so than most of what I've read in Batman and Detective lately.

[The Xenos]

To be honest, the Batman portion of the issue I read was very good. It actually fit in with the previous arc. Yet the Joker portion was just too out there for me.

[the goddamn batman]

Oh, Xenos, you do like to over react, don't you?

Killing Joke isn't really even that good of a story. So, this terrible homicidal maniac and I are only 'One Bad Day' apart? Eeesh. No thanks. Alan Moore doesn't even like it. It's like the Batman version of Falling Down. Neither are really as great as we'd like to remember.

Now, I'm not really into the Confidential Arc at all and I don't care what tv show the writer works for... but does that invalidate his writing ability?

Also, if you're not reading it, then do you really have the ability to trash on it? No. Just stop. Nobody wants to read a bunch of pages of irrate comic fans ranting about books they're not even reading. Let alone trying to tell other people they're wrong for liking it,and should go 'read the classics'. It's just silly.

Why not talk about books you like? Focus your energy into something positive. :)


(I hope this isn't considered a personal attack or anything)

[Paul Dee]

Why not talk about books you like? Focus your energy into something positive. :)



Being critical can be a positive thing though.

[Choppa]

Whoever made the point about this new origin having to include something to do with the Red Hood made a good observation though.

What observation are you reffering to?

[Choppa]

I liked how if Batman hadn't shown up at the robbery, Jack would have just let that guy kill him and there never would haev been a joker.

[Paul Dee]

What observation are you reffering to?

Just that ideally this origin has to have something to do with Jack assuming the guise of the Red Hood or else Jason Todd's recent use of that identity makes no sense. They could always retcon away of course or make the Joker use the Red Hood at some other point in his career I guess but at some point Jack/the Joker really does need to be the Red Hood.

[OverMaster]

Killing Joke isn't really even that good of a story. So, this terrible homicidal maniac and I are only 'One Bad Day' apart? Eeesh. No thanks. Alan Moore doesn't even like it. It's like the Batman version of Falling Down. Neither are really as great as we'd like to remember.


1. Alan Moore can say whatever he wants. He also likes to believe he's a big and powerful mage, doesn't mean I have to agree with him on that either. Personally, give me Killing Joke (his own most disliked work) over the darn overrated From Hell or his Image Comics stuff any day of the week. I prefer to judge his work on its own basis, not on the basis of what he says about it.

2. I just reread Killing Joke last month and found it as good as ever, thank you.

3. The comic never says Joker's perception is 'the right one' and that really any man can become like him after an atrocious day. As a matter of fact, one of the points of TKJ is Joker is WRONG on that assumption, after Gordon has his life wrecked but he still remains decent and moral ('Do it by the book. We have to show him our way works!'). Like Batman tells Joker, 'Maybe that was your nature, all the time'.

[OverMaster]

Being critical can be a positive thing though.

Exactly. No fictional medium can ever improve if it is not met with some sort of adverse comment to spot the flaws EVERYTHING has until we find the PERFECT story that can't be ever topped.

[Captain Jim]

Being critical can be a positive thing though.

Constructive criticism, yes. But one sees precious little of this on the internet.

[The Xenos]

Also, if you're not reading it, then do you really have the ability to trash on it? No. Just stop. Nobody wants to read a bunch of pages of irrate comic fans ranting about books they're not even reading. Let alone trying to tell other people they're wrong for liking it,and should go 'read the classics'. It's just silly.

Why not talk about books you like? Focus your energy into something positive. :)


(I hope this isn't considered a personal attack or anything)

Naw. It's just a conflict of views. My right view versus your wrong one. (I kid! I kid!)

Anyway, on a serious reply, for not reading it, I stopped reading it because I did read the first issue and I couldn't stand the Joker parts. They were that bad.

Actually I didn't even have to buy it. DC posted those pages on Newsarama and maybe even CBR. So I didn't need to buy it to read it. Though I still did because I had it on my list at the shop. Though the second issue came out during a busy week, so I easily dropped it in favor of other books.

Though on a positive note, I did admit that the Year One Batman scenes in the book were pretty neat. It's just that they weren't great enough to counter the bad taste the Joker ones had, especially where that's what seems to be the point of the tale. Plus I just don't like DC's whole idea behind this.

Hell. I wish Batman Confidential was as good as Superman Confidential. That book got Sale and Cooke. Though I forget who's taking over the new arc.

[Choppa]

Just that ideally this origin has to have something to do with Jack assuming the guise of the Red Hood or else Jason Todd's recent use of that identity makes no sense. They could always retcon away of course or make the Joker use the Red Hood at some other point in his career I guess but at some point Jack/the Joker really does need to be the Red Hood.

Oh okay, I thought so. That was me who said that.

[Captain Jim]

DC posted those pages on Newsarama and maybe even CBR. So I didn't need to buy it to read it.

Just Newsarama, though I linked to it here.

And it wasn't the whole issue, just a portion of it.

[Paul Dee]

bumpity bump


Finally got to read this - still a pretty decent arc, despite me still not being a fan of its overall premise. Love Cowan's art as well.


A few knowing references that grated ("The Bat-computer" etc) and I didn't like the way Alfred was written really but overall I enjoyed it. Did anyone else think the mention of Bruce having to use a laptop (regardless of his billionaire status) seemed to compromise the Year One feel at all? Like even though you could just about justify it it still feels like the writer keeps forgetting that this story is taking place years ago.