So, is Batman sexist?

[ViciousX]

http://shortpacked.com/comics/20070806robin.png

[Alerex]

Not Batman, since he is just a charater in a story. But you do have to wonder about the editors and writers who did this.

[Hulkamaniac]

all the female characters around him have always gotten killed, became cripples, or became irrelevant. Makes you wonder.
I dunno, but I thought it was well established that he likes little boys:p

[adam_warlock_2099]

He's afraid to love. And not selfish to drag a relationship through what he does.

[Pink Bat Max]

all the female characters around him have always gotten killed, became cripples, or became irrelevant. Makes you wonder.
I dunno, but I thought it was well established that he likes little boys:p

Yeah. Part of why I just can't be down with Bats. Some of it gets truly infuriating.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah. Part of why I just can't be down with Bats. Some of it gets truly infuriating.


What, pushing young girls into the line of fire is more acceptable? ;)

All joking aside, there's no reason why they couldn't put a Spoiler display in the Batcave. I doubt the majority of readers know where that giant penny, or where that giant T-Rex came from. So where's the harm in a display case for Steph?

[Christopher Cross Is God]

all the female characters around him have always gotten killed, became cripples, or became irrelevant. Makes you wonder.

Probably not what you're referring to, but Catwoman & Talia Al Ghul still seem alright.

[Pink Bat Max]

What, pushing young girls into the line of fire is more acceptable? ;)

All joking aside, there's no reason why they couldn't put a Spoiler display in the Batcave. I doubt the majority of readers know where that giant penny, or where that giant T-Rex came from. So where's the harm in a display case for Steph?

Hey, child endangerment's child endangerment, regardless of the sex of the kid.

Plus, I mean, I think he keeps the memorial to remind himself of what's at stake in the life he's chosen, on a personal level. It's not just there to have him think, 'oh my god, I can't believe I got them to wear THAT.' It doesn't make sense for him NOT to have a memorial.

[Jack Zodiac]

Doesn't he have Babs' old Batgirl costume down there, too? I don't see why he shouldn't and doesn't have a Spoiler costume down there except to ignore the ridiculously crappy story that resulted in her death.

[Hulkamaniac]

Probably not what you're referring to, but Catwoman & Talia Al Ghul still seem alright.

well. I would argue that those two characters dip in and out of relevance. If it wasn't for Bruce and Talia's "new" son she wouldn't be mentioned at all. Catwoman is awesome, don't get me wrong, but she tends to have strong runs then die out then have strong runs again a few years later. Not so with many of the male characters in Bat's life.

I also agree that not having a Spoiler costume or tribute in the cave is stupid.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Maybe Bats doesn't have a memorial for Spoiler 'cause she was something of a screwup? She started out her career to screw over her dad, continued because she had the hots for Robin and died after styarting a gang war. Sure, she had moments of true heroism, but she kept on falling back into impressing Robin/Batman/Batgirl rather than doing the job.

[Hulkamaniac]

Maybe Bats doesn't have a memorial for Spoiler 'cause she was something of a screwup? She started out her career to screw over her dad, continued because she had the hots for Robin and died after styarting a gang war. Sure, she had moments of true heroism, but she kept on falling back into impressing Robin/Batman/Batgirl rather than doing the job.

I would agree, except for the fact that every character other than Batman spends an obscene amount of time trying to impress Batman. Half of all Robin stories are probably about that.

[Pink Bat Max]

Hell, Jason Todd came back from the dead and started killing people, and HE still has a memorial.

[Hulkamaniac]

Hell, Jason Todd came back from the dead and started killing people, and HE still has a memorial.

to be fair his memorial was placed before that happened, and to remove it is not the Batman way. If you haven't gotten over the death of your parents in over 50 years and run around in a Bat suit and have odd memorabilia all over your Bat Cave you ain't taken Todd's memorial down. no matter what happens. Jason would have to bring Bruce's parents back to life only to kill them in an even more horrible way, in front of him no less, to warrant such a reaction. :)

[Shadi]

I really liked Stephanie, both as Spoiler and Robin, and reaaaaally hated that they killed her off (as well as how (and how quickly) they did it).

Having said that though, I prefer the current situation of not having a memorial of her in the cave; but for entirely selfish reasons. Every time I'd see it I'd remember what happened to her, get annoyed, and it would probably pull me off whatever story I would be reading at the time.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I would agree, except for the fact that every character other than Batman spends an obscene amount of time trying to impress Batman. Half of all Robin stories are probably about that.


Yeah, but Robin's better trained and more emotionally mature.

Honestly, I think Jason and Steph ought to be used as examples as what crime fighters in Gotham shouldn't be. Both were angry, and were more concerned about some level of vengeance for themselves than saving innocent lives. People like that should slip alot more often than people like Robin or Batgirl, IMO.

[Pink Bat Max]

to be fair his memorial was placed before that happened, and to remove it is not the Batman way. If you haven't gotten over the death of your parents in over 50 years and run around in a Bat suit and have odd memorabilia all over your Bat Cave you ain't taken Todd's memorial down. no matter what happens. Jason would have to bring Bruce's parents back to life only to kill them in an even more horrible way, in front of him no less, to warrant such a reaction. :)

It's true. But I'd think one day he'd walk down into the batcave, note the memorial, and think, "Hey, I'm honoring Jason and not Stephanie. God, I'm a jerk."

Maybe it's just me.

[Hulkamaniac]

It's true. But I'd think one day he'd walk down into the batcave, note the memorial, and think, "Hey, I'm honoring Jason and not Stephanie. God, I'm a jerk."

Maybe it's just me.

Brilliant, simply brilliant. your not the only one Pink;)

[Mia]

Here's a definition I've found of sexism

Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.


I don't see I don’t see how Batman fits into that definition at all. If anything he seems to love women and have a dislike for men. Especially men with personalities like his. He seems to hate Green Lantern and Hawkman.

[Captain Jim]

Spoiler doesn't have a memorial for the same reason she was killed off. The editors don't like her and want everyone to forget about her.

[Jack Zodiac]

Here's a definition I've found of sexism



I don't see I don’t see how Batman fits into that definition at all. If anything he seems to love women and have a dislike for men. Especially men with personalities like his. He seems to hate Green Lantern and Hawkman.

Eh? Bruce doesn't hate Hal (if he hates any Green Lantern, it's Guy, and it isn't because he has the same personality as him), or Carter, and I don't know what gave you that impression, but neither of them have similar personalities. Hal's extremely outgoing and full of bravado. Bruce is reserved and proud, but doesn't make a point of showing it, it just happens. And Carter is all business, just like Bruce, when he's working, but that's about the extent of the similarities between them, because the last thing Hawkman is is restrained.

[Corrina]

Spoiler doesn't have a memorial for the same reason she was killed off. The editors don't like her and want everyone to forget about her.

Yes, the question to ask, given the fates of Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, and Leslie Tompkins, not to mention Vesper Fairchild and Sarah Essen (who would have thought Frank Miller would treat her BETTER than anyone else).....is not "Is Batman sexist" but "Is Bat editorial sexist," at least in presentation.

Because I have no real way of discerning inner motives but the outer results? Well, they seem to scream "women, get the hell out of my Gotham books."

[Captain Jim]

Sarah died because editorial at the time decided that somebody had to die at the end of NML. As I recall, Rucka wanted it to Bullock, but Dixon insisted on not killing Bullock. (Though he later got him drummed off the force.) Essen was the only one everyone could agree on.

[Mia]

I can't speak to Cassie (why was she turned bad?). But I don't see the killing off of the female characters as being sexist. But for the most part most of them were minor characters who were probably seen as being dispensible.

[Hulkamaniac]

I can't speak to Cassie (why was she turned bad?). But I don't see the killing off of the female characters as being sexist. But for the most part most of them were minor characters who were probably seen as being dispensible.

but thats the thing, it's hardly the case that the writers of Batman stories spend enough time nurturing the female characters to become not dispensable.
Spoiler was one in a long line of female Batman characters that were killed or altered to become less than their male counterparts. Batwoman, batgirl, magpie, or a hundred other characters can testify to that. The male characters have staying power while the females dont. It can be argued that that is due to the readers not buying them and/or the writers not writing them to be good sustainable characters. It a judgment call, but it's probably due to both.

[Mia]

but thats the thing, it's hardly the case that the writers of Batman stories spend enough time nurturing the female characters to become not dispensable.
Spoiler was one in a long line of female Batman characters that were killed or altered to become less than their male counterparts. Batwoman, batgirl, magpie, or a hundred other characters can testify to that. The male characters have staying power while the females dont. It can be argued that that is due to the readers not buying them and/or the writers not writing them to be good sustainable characters. It a judgment call, but it's probably due to both.

In a sense you are partly right on both counts. However I agree with you on the former more than the later.

Boys/men buy comics to admire and identify with the men. They don't do that with the female ones. Not to say that there are some deliciously strong and powerful female characters out there in comics that men adore and love to read about (ie. Emma Frost). But not many of them are at DC. However rest assured they won't be touched (or at least keep your fingers crossed). I dunno, even as I type this I think of some great heroines at DC who have been ruined at watered down.

Comics used to be the only place in pop culture where I could find strong femine women. But that seems to be less and less the case. More's the pity.

[Subotai]

On a side note, has Batman ever addressed Cassandra's 'return from the dark side'? Or anyone else?

[Corrina]

Essen was the only one everyone could agree on.

This would be part of my point, as to why my perception is as it is.

You know when Frank Miller (females who run the gamut from whore to dead whore..)writes a female character in an interesting way yet all of DC editorial think she's better off dead, well, that's not a good sign.

Cassandra Cain was not a minor character. She had a nearly 100 issue run and the sales figures were not at the cancellation level. Like Spoiler, though, she was considered expendable. In fact, she was taken out of her title, made evil, then made a foe for a male character, to pump up his title. It's happened often enough that I've stopped reading Batman because of the sour taste in my mouth about the overall direction, which makes me sad because Batman is pretty much my favorite character.

But it's hard to read current continuity without thinking "well, this is the guy who jerked Stephanie around, didn't bother to find out what was wrong with Cassandra, and has pretty much forgotten both of them." Yes, it's due to editorial decision but it makes the character hard to read, pretty much like many fans of Iron Man find it hard to stomach Tony Stark nowadays.

P.S. And I don't think good, three-dimension female characters are going to send the fanboys running in fear. BoP had pretty steady sales lately, and Spoiler certainly didn't hurt the sales of "Robin" especially under Dixon. And "Batgirl" had steady, though not spectacular sales. So I don't buy the argument that female characters drive readers away.

[Hulkamaniac]

totally Mia, I agree , I'd love to see stronger more well written female hero's out of DC. I really was disappointed in many of the recent uses of DC females (including DC's biggest, WW and Lois).
That's what kills me about Bats, he so male testosterone driven and dark that a great written strong female character can really stand out in his books. Catwoman comes to mind as one, but I really consider her underutilized and kept under the radar time and time again. Since Barb was crippled and Batgirl gone there really is a gap that has never been filled. ( I really liked Killing Joke, but not bringing forward a strong female hero after that really hurts the cause for female heros in Gotham and DC)

[Captain Jim]

You know when Frank Miller (females who run the gamut from whore to dead whore..)writes a female character in an interesting way yet all of DC editorial think she's better off dead, well, that's not a good sign.

But it wasn't that they thought she was better off dead. TPTB decreed that a cast member had to be killed off and the writers had to agree on whom. Personally, I wish they wouldn't always be so kill-crazy. Why do they think they can't have an event without killing someone? I would prefer they hadn't killed anybody, but that wasn't an option. Personally, I agree with Dixon that Bullock's presence was more important than Sarah's. Who would you have picked to kill?

Cassandra Cain was not a minor character. She had a nearly 100 issue run and the sales figures were not at the cancellation level. Like Spoiler, though, she was considered expendable. In fact, she was taken out of her title, made evil, then made a foe for a male character, to pump up his title. It's happened often enough that I've stopped reading Batman because of the sour taste in my mouth about the overall direction, which makes me sad because Batman is pretty much my favorite character.

But if Cassandra was taken out to make room for the new Batwoman (as most believe), then it's hardly sexist, even though it was handled badly.

[Corrina]

I don't know why anyone had to die at the end of it. To me, the whole thing was one long, slow slide into anarchy that was then pulled back into a real community.

I honestly didn't think any death was needed to end it. The whole arc was full of really rough sad, stuff. I didn't see anything wrong with it ending with "and the Joker gets sent off to jail."

Essen got picked to die because she'd cause Jim Gordon angst. She wasn't any more or less expendable than Bullock--Dixon just happened to like writing Bullock more. Not that Bullock stayed around for very long, Rucka got rid of him pretty damn fast anyway.

I used to really enjoy the supporting GCPD cast around Batman, not just Gordon but Essen & Bullock & Montoya & Leslie Tompkins and others. The books really lost something to me when that cast basically faded away. It's good to know Gordon & Bullock are back but, to me, that's an acknowledgment that slicing out most of the supporting cast didn't really work.

I realize Montoya was given a more prominent role as the new Question but, to me, she's such a different character that I can't even see much of the old, intense but competent Montoya in there, as if there's someone walking around with the name but not the same personality. I kinda wish Rucka had used an original character for his story arc and left Montoya in the Bat books.

You know, before anyone jumps on me that I want Batman to be all feminist, all I'm asking is that the Bat-comics have interesting female characters who don't get killed, tortured or have personality transplants on a regular basis. That's it. I don't think that's too much to ask.

[Captain Jim]

^^^
You'll get no argument from me on any of this. :)

[IamtheRock3]

http://shortpacked.com/comics/20070806robin.png

meh Batman running out of room in his cases for Dead sidekicks

Didnt make a memorial for the dead mecanic that help him either. Also spoliler similers wasnt as memorble a death as Jason (at least not untill they undid it)

And not just cause she a Chick. Jason death was a pretty big thing in comics back in the day

[Pink Bat Max]

Jason death was a pretty big thing in comics back in the day

Largely because his own fanbase voted him dead, and paid to do it.

[DaeJi]

Largely because his own fanbase voted him dead, and paid to do it.

And then they brought him back because the writer was one of the ten people to vote for the little @#$% to live :(. Spoiler deserves a memorial in the Batcave; I mean come on DC, you went and made the weapon that brutally tortured and killed her into a blasted toy!

[IamtheRock3]

Largely because his own fanbase voted him dead, and paid to do it.

True but an IMPACT is an IMPACT

And it was his first big failure, and even in batman history that will be remeber 10 years from now with or without showing Robin suit in the batcave

Can we TRULY say the same about Spoiler who was part of one the WORST batman crossovers ever


Onto the montanya as the Question. To be fair a guy died in the storyline to help her charcter change. Least they going after guys not. Of course he became the specter

Think Rucka just really digs Montanya so killed another guy to help her story

Guess the same can be said about not wanting to kill bullock. Dont think it was a hating women thing

of course admit DC does have a woman in refregirator tednecy

[IamtheRock3]

And then they brought him back because the writer was one of the ten people to vote for the little @#$% to live :(. Spoiler deserves a memorial in the Batcave; I mean come on DC, you went and made the weapon that brutally tortured and killed her into a blasted toy!


In fairness there plenty of Joker toy

And there a the new TOYMAN who a child molestor now (Ahhh got to love new DC), who has his own toy

[shaxper]

To answer the question of why Stephanie Brown never got a memorial in the Batcave, I can think of several good reasons:

1. She was Robin for roughly three months

2. Batman fired her. She returned as Robin against his orders and triggered a devastating gangwar in the process

3. Batman had far less emotional connection to her. He adopted Jason Todd as his own son. He allowed Stephanie to patrol with him. There's a difference.

4. Much of the fanbase hated Stephanie and would rather that she was forgotten. True, this was also true of Jason, but his costume just as easily brings to mind the Dick Grayson Robin. A Stephanie Brown memorial in the cave is more character specific.


Now, I can think of a dozen things wrong with how Stephanie Brown was treated, including the fact that her death was handled with all the tact and good taste of a snuff film. The Bat-Family has always felt like a boys only club. Even Barbara Gordon and Cassie Caine never really fit in. But no, I don't think Stephanie deserves a memorial.

[Captain Jim]

the writer was one of the ten people to vote for the little @#$% to live

Actually, the vote was pretty close to 50/50.

[Captain Jim]

True but an IMPACT is an IMPACT

And it was his first big failure, and even in batman history that will be remeber 10 years from now with or without showing Robin suit in the batcave

I can't help but wonder if Jason would have been remembered to such an extent if his character had never been mentioned again after he was killed.

Can we TRULY say the same about Spoiler who was part of one the WORST batman crossovers ever

That's simply your opinion. And regardless of the quality of that storyline, it did have a major impact on the direction of Batman comics thereafter. Besides, I've heard a lot of people say they thought Death in the Family was a lousy storyline. Does that negate the importance of Jason's death? What a strange argument.

[cactusmaac]

The Jason memorial acts to commemorate who he once was.

[Captain Jim]

To answer the question of why Stephanie Brown never got a memorial in the Batcave, I can think of several good reasons:

1. She was Robin for roughly three months

So, by that same argument, if someone gets married and loses their spouse after only three months, they shouldn't grieve or miss them, right?

2. Batman fired her. She returned as Robin against his orders and triggered a devastating gangwar in the process

Using Batman's own plan, that he left laying around the batcave. I think he needs to share some blame on that one. But even given a parallel situation in the workplace, if said former employee gave their life trying to rectify the mistake, it's hard to imagine the former employer not wanting to honor them in some way. And that's where there is only a business relationship, no personal dimension involved. And I don't think that was the case here.

3. Batman had far less emotional connection to her. He adopted Jason Todd as his own son. He allowed Stephanie to patrol with him. There's a difference.

Did he really legally adopt Jason? I don't remember that. But in any case, the scenario was not that different from that of Tim Drake initially. He lived with his parents and just came over to patrol.

4. Much of the fanbase hated Stephanie and would rather that she was forgotten. True, this was also true of Jason, but his costume just as easily brings to mind the Dick Grayson Robin. A Stephanie Brown memorial in the cave is more character specific.

You pretty much answered your own statement here. The fact that it was the same costume Dick wore is irrelevant; it was always clear who was being honored in that glass case.

[founder81]

Spoiler might have been a minor character in the bat books as a whole, but in Robin, she was a major supporting characters. In many issues she got at least as much screen time as Robin.

[elias_A]

As I said many times, I am (was) a big fan both of Stephanie and Cassandra.

Yeah, but Robin's better trained and more emotionally mature.

Honestly, I think Jason and Steph ought to be used as examples as what crime fighters in Gotham shouldn't be. Both were angry, and were more concerned about some level of vengeance for themselves than saving innocent lives. People like that should slip alot more often than people like Robin or Batgirl, IMO.

have you actually read any stories with Stephanie? She was never angry, and never concerned with vengeance. She was funny and enthusiastic. She wanted to stop her father's crimes out of a feeling of obligation, and later wanted desperately to prove herself to Batman and trained very hard to be finally good enough.
Batman just totally ignored her emotional needs. Even if he would have been correct in estimating her not good enough (what he should have realised much, much earlier then), he had a lot of responsibility as some sort of parental figure for her.

To the argument that she was Robin too short to matter, and screwed up with the gang war: She was a part of the Bat Family as Spoiler for much longer. Batman fired her once before with no good reason, then took her back, then fired her again.
In the Gabrych-written issues directly after War Games he is deeply concerned about her death and questioning himself.
And of course he promised her on her deathbed that she would be remembered.

But if DC think that "she was not important enough" is his reason for not having a memorial, they should have him state that in an actual comic panel so that we have facts and can stop no-prizing.


Delusional as I am, I expect Steph to be addressed in the upcoming Bat-crossover. Maybe she even returns, or her daughter is speed-force-raised by the League of assassins in the lab next to Damien.

Since Didio seems to believe the theory that there is no bad publicity, I wouldn't be surprised if he intentionally screws with us to keep the internet talking about Steph so that more people recognize the name should she return...

[shaxper]

So, by that same argument, if someone gets married and loses their spouse after only three months, they shouldn't grieve or miss them, right?

Not a fair comparison. Marriage is the ultimate emotional commitment. You have to care tremendously about a person to marry them in the first place. Batman entered into his relationship with Stephanie by deciding she had potential as a vigilante assistant.



Using Batman's own plan, that he left laying around the batcave. I think he needs to share some blame on that one. But even given a parallel situation in the workplace, if said former employee gave their life trying to rectify the mistake, it's hard to imagine the former employer not wanting to honor them in some way. And that's where there is only a business relationship, no personal dimension involved. And I don't think that was the case here.

Batman has never had much appreciation nor sympathy for partners who run off half-cocked. Everything Batman is is about careful planning and ultimate discipline. This didn't make him stop loving Jason after he died, but it didn't make him start loving Jason either.




Did he really legally adopt Jason? I don't remember that. But in any case, the scenario was not that different from that of Tim Drake initially. He lived with his parents and just came over to patrol.

Yes. He legally adopted Jason. If you recall, Tim was not really a part of Bruce's world until his parents were abducted. Even though he was working aside Batman, Batman was having a very hard time accepting him as Robin. If anything, he took to Stephanie quicker and more easily.


You pretty much answered your own statement here. The fact that it was the same costume Dick wore is irrelevant; it was always clear who was being honored in that glass case.

If one stopped to think about it, yes. But as a decoration in the background (which is how it's used 99% of the time), no. It doesn't blatantly indicate which Robin it's referring to unless we get a shot of the plaque or someone somehow indicates who it represents in the story.

[Pink Bat Max]

And then they brought him back because the writer was one of the ten people to vote for the little @#$% to live :(. Spoiler deserves a memorial in the Batcave; I mean come on DC, you went and made the weapon that brutally tortured and killed her into a blasted toy!

I'm still waiting for Didio to offer refunds to all the people who voted him dead. It feels like they should get the cost of the call back.

To be honest, I read that storyline 'back in the day' and it didn't feel 'oooh, intense' so much as it felt like DC correcting an error. If the pages got dampened, it wouldn't have been with tears but white-out (metaphorically speaking). It was only when the memorial appeared in DKR that there seemed to be some emotional resonance.

Jason Todd was always nothing more than a little twerp who was a mistake from the start. Stephanie was much more.

[shaxper]

To be honest, I read that storyline 'back in the day' and it didn't feel 'oooh, intense' so much as it felt like DC correcting an error. If the pages got dampened, it wouldn't have been with tears but white-out (metaphorically speaking). It was only when the memorial appeared in DKR that there seemed to be some emotional resonance.

Jason Todd was always nothing more than a little twerp who was a mistake from the start. Stephanie was much more.

Death in the Family moved me profoundly and forever changed the way I saw Batman. Jason had been on a dark path since his first post-crisis appearance, and Bruce (recognizing the angry and dangerous side of himself within Jason) did everything he could to swerve him onto the right path. Batman #424 really began to explore this in-depth. Batman's horror and denial over what Jason had allowed himself to do was rich, if muted. A deep inner conflict was born. Had Batman done the right thing by trying to save Jason, had he only empowered a maniac to do perform greater misdeads, or did he have the right idea but with poor execution? The opportunity for Batman to profoundly doubt himself for once was rich and exhilarating for me.

I think DC's big mistake was in rushing into Death in the Family too quickly. We needed more of a build-up as Robin gradually became more angry and unpredictable, and Batman had to cope with this in response. Instead, by the time Death in the Family began in #426, most people still hadn't fully absorbed the idea of Jason being reckless and dangerous. Batman's reactions in these issues were priceless, but seemingly out of nowhere for most.

Jason Todd was great (and, I believe, is immortalized in the cave), because he represents Batman's greatest mistake. Bruce didn't seek out and recruit Stephanie. He didn't take personal responsibility for her growth as a moral human being. He simply supplemented her training and took her on patrols.

Like I said before, she didn't deserve the crap death that she received, but she should not be compared to Jason.

[Citizen V]

Comics is a man`s industry..i doubt that will ever change.

[Captain Jim]

Bruce didn't seek out and recruit Stephanie. He didn't take personal responsibility for her growth as a moral human being. He simply supplemented her training and took her on patrols.

What he did was use her. He used her to manipulate Tim (who had "retired") into coming back as Robin. That's not speculation. It was pretty well confirmed when Alfred confronted Bruce with it and he declined to answer. Far from having no feelings about her death, he ought to be plagued with guilt.

[Craig T. Nelson]

The Jason memorial acts to commemorate who he once was.

How's Rajah?

Batman being a bit sexist wouldn't surprise me at all. I hardly call not putting a memorial up evidence however.

[shaxper]

What he did was use her. He used her to manipulate Tim (who had "retired") into coming back as Robin. That's not speculation. It was pretty well confirmed when Alfred confronted Bruce with it and he declined to answer. Far from having no feelings about her death, he ought to be plagued with guilt.

I don't deny that. All the same, had Stephanie worked out better, I think Batman would have left her a place in the Bat Family, if not as Robin than as something else. In time, he might have even grown close to her (Tim took time, too). I think it's a mixture of both the character and his writers, but Bruce has traditionally been very reluctant and damn right hostile toward new partners ever since Jason died.

Stephanie died and it sucked, and maybe Batman was partially to blame, but Bruce deals with death all the time in his comics. He's been through more than a few situations that have left him feeling a little guilty, too. The fact that Stephanie put on a Robin costume and stuck around with him for a few months doesn't guarantee her a larger part of Bruce's heart. Remember Harold the Hunchback, who stuck around in Batman's cave, repairing the Batmobile and designing new equipment for him for like two years back in the early '90s? Neither does Bruce.

[Captain Jim]

Remember Harold the Hunchback, who stuck around in Batman's cave, repairing the Batmobile and designing new equipment for him for like two years back in the early '90s? Neither does Bruce.

I think he remembered him in HUSH. ;)

[mattx110]

he never adopted stephanie. jason was more than a robin who got killed. and he probably has some personal memento to steph, and thinks about her every night while patroling rooftops if that makes you feel better.

[rerun]

Wasn't Stephanie Robin for 5 days or so? Maybe a picture on the cave wall but not a memorial.

[Captain Jim]

As already mentioned by another, as Spoiler, she was an ongoing supporting character in Robin's book for much, much longer than that.

[elias_A]

Maybe a picture on the cave wall but not a memorial.

Actually, for me, and most other of her fans I guess, that would be enough. But DC somehow seem to think the Batman titles shouldn't be allowed to mention her at all anymore.

[hichaec]

For me, she doesn't even need a picture (though it would be wonderful) - just pluralizing the stupid plaque on the memorial that's already there (and making specific note of it) would be enough.

Though, naturally, if I got to choose, I'd giver her her own memorial. But I would be satisfied with simple acknowledgement at this point. Geez.

[Magneto_X]

Very much so.

What happened to Spoiler, the Batgirl situation (even pre-OYL -- but he did have a few moments of caring for her [i.e. David Cain]) and how he treats Huntress is evidence of it.

[Magneto_X]

Maybe Bats doesn't have a memorial for Spoiler 'cause she was something of a screwup? She started out her career to screw over her dad, continued because she had the hots for Robin and died after styarting a gang war. Sure, she had moments of true heroism, but she kept on falling back into impressing Robin/Batman/Batgirl rather than doing the job.

And that's different from Jason Todd how? (With the War Games and being a screw-up, I mean.)

[Magneto_X]

It can be argued that that is due to the readers not buying them and/or the writers not writing them to be good sustainable characters. It a judgment call, but it's probably due to both.

The sales of Batgirl (it went over 50 issues and outsold Robin -- it only got cancelled due to editorial interference) and Birds of Prey (Huntress and Oracle are main characters in it & has gone past it's hundredth issue) would dispute that.

[Magneto_X]

On a side note, has Batman ever addressed Cassandra's 'return from the dark side'? Or anyone else?

Not that I know. After OYL he seems to have forgotten Cass exists altogether. :(

[Jack Zodiac]

What happened to Spoiler, the Batgirl situation (even pre-OYL -- but he did have a few moments of caring for her [i.e. David Cain]) and how he treats Huntress is evidence of it.

Yes, because it's his fault Spoiler died, Batgirl was brainwashed, and Huntress avoids him.

Batman isn't sexist, but he's controlled by men who don't know how to write women well, so either don't bother or !@#$ it up.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

i am 120% behind Corrina on this, women are treated like sidewalk spit.

What´s the longest a female character lasted in the Batbooks and how did she die?

[Francis]

i am 120% behind Corrina on this, women are treated like sidewalk spit.

What´s the longest a female character lasted in the Batbooks and how did she die?
Barbara Gordon debuted a long time pre-Crisis and she's still alive. Even if confined to a wheel chair (by a story Alan Moore thought would be an Elseworlds)* and having left Gotham in the wake of War Games. In second place comes ... Catwoman? Poison Ivy?

Also, with the exception of the four core male characters (Batman, Jim Gordon, Robin, Alfred), do any male (heroic) characters have that long a run either?

* Admittedly she was brought back by Ostrander and Yale through the Suicide Squad.

Edit: not that I disagree with the core thesis here.

[Magneto_X]

Yes, because it's his fault Spoiler died, Batgirl was brainwashed, and Huntress avoids him.

Did he train Spoiler at all when she was Robin? If he did he did a really sh*t job of it --- unlike with Tim, Dick or even Jason. Then he leaves a plan in the Batcave out *that he created* when she was desperate to prove herself to him.

How about when he was sitting next to her as she was dying from fatal wounds --- and doing absolutely nothing? You'd think the "greatest detective in the world" would bother to call up the JLA or pay some uber-scientist in the DCU to heal her (I don't buy they don't have tech to fix her!), instead he lets her die with no chance at all!

Then not only does he not tell Tim Drake that Stephie is dying in said hospital so he could say goodbye (they were a couple for a while, it's not like she was his pet rabbit) but doesn't bring her up in Tim's presence at all until she's a corpse.

Some hero there.

With how Bats has always treated Huntress I can't blame her. You'd think he'd have no problem accepting a fellow hero whose origin is similar to his own. Instead he kept her on a tight leash at best and barely trusted her. If she were a man would Bruce have been more forgiving? I wouldn't doubt it.

Barbara did more to "rehabilitate" Helena within a few months then Bruce did in his entire career.

Cass proved loyal to Bats no questions asked from the start. And proved it a thousand times over. All that got her was isolated from the entire Batfamily with her own Batcave, he didn't do squat to teach her how to adapt to life outside the costume and aside from Barbara and Spoiler (with Tim assisting in the end, but he had no clue how to react to her --- he doesn't have Bats experience or resources to deal with her in the first place!), wasn't taught how to use the gadgets (that I'm aware of) & had almost no guidance from the Batfamily.

All she really had was her own mini-Batcave in the middle of a city with no human contact (until Oracle or Spoiler showed up to check on her) where she spent all day training non-stop. She had almost no social skills and little experience with friends to make many in the Bludhaven/Gotham so it's not like she could do that on her own.

During WW III & 52 did Bats even realise she was *gone*?

And what did he do when Tim told him she turned "evil"? He shrugged it off like it meant nothing. This was the same girl who not only knew all the Batfamily's identities but could f8ck Bruce up one on one in combat! And she even had her own fraction of the *League of Assassins*! :eek:

If DC had made her a compentent villain Jason Todd's insanity would be Disneyland. Hell, she'd be a post-Infinite Crisis Deathstroke level menace.


Batman isn't sexist, but he's controlled by men who don't know how to write women well, so either don't bother or !@#$ it up.

We aren't talking about the creators behind the scenes (you'd need another thread for that) but this *is* how he's acted in canon. Unless it is retconned this is how Bruce has acted in the comics.

[cactusmaac]

How's Rajah?

Batman being a bit sexist wouldn't surprise me at all. I hardly call not putting a memorial up evidence however.

Heh. Rajah represent!

[the goddamn batman]

We aren't talking about the creators behind the scenes (you'd need another thread for that)

Batman is a FICTIONAL character. His existence, personallity, and actions are dictated by the writers. Period.

If you want to talk about how Batman acts then you're in fact, talking about how the writers and editors make him act. Simple, yes?

As someone said, not having a memorial for Spoiler... this isn't something Batman decided. It's something that editorial decided.

It's a pretty basic concept. Batman isn't real. Batman isn't sexist. If you find the character to be sexist, then that's because you find the editorial mandates to be sexist.;)

[dancj]

I've no reason to think that Batman is sexist, but....

Of course he's a fictional character, and any talk of whether he is sexist or not is talking whether he's sexist within that fictional world. Saying it's the writers not the character is just pointless

[Magneto_X]

goddamn batman:

As Dancj said bringing the writers into the thread is useless. I even mentioned that you'd need a seperate thread to discuss the creators executing the stories, we're discussing *Batman* here.

Yes, I know his fiction. All entertainment is.

You have offered no defenses for his dickish behavior towards woman characters other then dodging the issue altogether.

[Odinwolf]

I think its difficult to extract the writers from Batman when dealing with this issue.

Batman, as he has been written for the better part of the last 20 years, is personally cold and obsessed with perfection, efficiency, planning ahead, etc. He has very little time for personal connections apart from his work as Batman and his professional face as Bruce Wayne. So the people that Batman has become closest to, as demonstrated by Hush, are the people who have been most competant in combat and influential in his work as a crime-fighter. He appreciates, even on a personal level, competance, intelligence and a dedication to justice.

Batman obviously found Spoiler lacking as a crime-fighting partner. He wanted Tim back and he wasn't above allowing her a temporary place at his side to get him back into costume. She wasn't close to him because she wasn't as useful and valuable as Tim, Dick, Barb or Alfred. I think she doesn't have a memorial because, besides the fact that she was largely unpopular, Jason's memorial is less a memorial to Jason, or even Robin, and more of a practical tool to remind him of his mistakes.

I think so few women characters last in Batbooks because Batman has found very few female characters worthy of his high standards. I think that's the fault of the editorial team, not the character. When certain female characters HAVE been written as powerful and competant as their male counterparts, they are either too unpopular to last or are handled poorly in an attempt to boost the male character sales and popularity.

So is Batman sexist? No. He's elistist and very few characters, male or female, meet his high standards. He's been a jerk to female characters because they are rarely written in such a way to earn his affections and/or appreciation.

Is the editorial team sexist? Maybe. However, they might just be trying to temporarily boost sales and they see the much newer and less influential female characters as a tool to accomplish that. Call it sexist maybe. Call it poor management of the characters at the very least.

[BoosterBronze]

Spoiler's death actally leaves me wondering whether Robin is gay.

He was supposedly very close to her for a long time, and yet he is so minimally effected by her death.

He only worked with Superboy for a limited time, and yet changed his costume for him, made a shrine and was (is? still?) trying to clone him or get him ressurected because he can't live without him.

Could Conner have awoken some feelings in Mr. Drake he wasn't ready to deal with?

[Captain Jim]

Spoiler's death actally leaves me wondering whether Robin is gay.

He was supposedly very close to her for a long time, and yet he is so minimally effected by her death.

He only worked with Superboy for a limited time, and yet changed his costume for him, made a shrine and was (is? still?) trying to clone him or get him ressurected because he can't live without him.

Could Conner have awoken some feelings in Mr. Drake he wasn't ready to deal with?

I think that's way off base. This is one of those instances when you can't discuss the characters without bringing in the creators. Robin spent little time mourning Spoiler's loss because TPTB want everybody to forget all about her (which is also why there won't be a memorial).

[BoosterBronze]

I think that's way off base. This is one of those instances when you can't discuss the characters without bringing in the creators. Robin spent little time mourning Spoiler's loss because TPTB want everybody to forget all about her (which is also why there won't be a memorial).

I get what youre saying, and I admit my comment was half-joking, but blaming writers for things characters do seems silly.

Superman only saves lives because TPTB make him. They don't WANT you to know he's a serial killer.

I mean, comics are comics, what happens in them happens in them. If we say somethings don't count because of editors, where do we draw the line, because everything happens because of TPTB.

[The Zapper]

I get what youre saying, and I admit my comment was half-joking, but blaming writers for things characters do seems silly.

Superman only saves lives because TPTB make him. They don't WANT you to know he's a serial killer.

I mean, comics are comics, what happens in them happens in them. If we say somethings don't count because of editors, where do we draw the line, because everything happens because of TPTB.

I like you more every day Booster. We either have to blame everything on TPTB, or nothing on TPTB. Even if you were only half serious about your post on Tim, I tend to agree with you.

[Mr Blinky]

Just want to address a few points here:

It's been argued that Spoiler doesn't deserve a memorial because her tenure as Baman's sidekick was so brief.

Well, for me, the point is not that Steph was only Robin for five days, but rather that she was Robin. This implies a level of trust, respect and, to some small degree, affection on the part of Batman that is no small thing.

I mean, if I ever became, say, king of Belgium, even if it was only for five days, do you think I'd ever shut up about it?

"Yeah, that's right, people, it's me: former king of Belgium. Waffle for an autograph, form an orderly queue..."

Furthermore, even if it's true that Batman was so callous as to use Steph to make Tim jealous enough to return, Bruce isn't an idiot; he's not going to take an incompetent out on patrol with him. He must have seen something in her.

Now add to that the fact that he set her on the path that got her killed (while not directly responsible, he encouraged her vigilantism by bringing her into his world) and really, a second line on that plaque is the friggin' least he can do!

Jason isn't even dead anymore, and he gets the whole case to himself?! :mad:


Also: Steph doesn't deserve a memorial because she was widely disliked? Huh? Jason Todd was voted to death by the majority of Batman readers! You're telling me that Steph has fewer fans than the guy that the fans paid good money to watch suffer and die?! I don't buy that as a fact or as an argument.


As for the question of what to blame on TPTB...

The editors are, of course, responsible for the 'choices' of the characters they control, but in the case of well-established figures like Batman (by now, older than the guys who are writing him), they should be careful not to contradict the quintessential personality of said figure, that long-established set of fundamental characteristics that transcends any individual story. If they do, they should explain it.

What if...in next months Action Comics, a story is published featuring Superman cheating on Lois Lane? With Ralph Dibny....

I imagine the fans would want an explanation. Why are these men betraying the loves of their lives? Why so gay now? Why's he doing Dibny, when Booster Gold's in town?

The answer, again, is that the editors are responsible, but the readers need some kind of in-story rationale, or it doesn't make sense. Or it does, but makes the hero involved look like a tool.

Or a misogynistic tool, in the case of OYL Batman.

Howsabout Bruce mentions something about not adding a Spoiler monument to the cave, because it would distress Tim, given how much closer he was to Steph? Or because he doesn't want to give the impression that Steph would still be Robin had she lived, and that tiny Tim only got his job back because she didn't? Some kind of explanation, please!


And as for Cassie Cain...

I wasn't really familiar with the new Bat Girl before I came to this forum. But after reading so many people raving about her, I checked out the TPBs.

Holy crap! Seriously, is she not the best character D.C.'s dreamed up in years?!

Great personality, great origin, great motivation, great 'power', ...

What really annoys me about the waste of the character is that editorial could have just stuck her on the ship with Bruce, Dick and Tim as they sailed away to parts unknown at the end of Infinite Crisis. This would then have given them a full year to decide what to do with her!

Instead we get the afterthought of, "Oh, Deathstroke made her eeeeeevil."

Gah! I'll happily let Superboy Prime kill all the Green Lanterns he wants, if he'll just retcon-punch Didio in the kidneys until we get Cass back! :mad:

[IamtheRock3]

goddamn batman:

As Dancj said bringing the writers into the thread is useless. I even mentioned that you'd need a seperate thread to discuss the creators executing the stories, we're discussing *Batman* here.

Yes, I know his fiction. All entertainment is.

You have offered no defenses for his dickish behavior towards woman characters other then dodging the issue altogether.

Well there is somthing I like to call PLOT INDUCE DICKNISH


Batman treats women bad you say. Well So does BARBRA, why didnt she check on CASS for all that time. She mention her OUNCE and only ounce. Girl was like a sister to her. Turn evil and she didnt look into it. Kind of makes Barbra the C word come to think about it

You THINK she would. real Reason is Gail probally didnt feel like writing batgirl and explaining that stuity

So you got assume maybe something happen between the scenes. Maybe batman does think about spoiler, no proof to say he doesnt


Same reaosn why Flash dont use superspeed to make his town a utopia. Why batman dont building better Jails, Or most SUPER sciencetist dont cure diseases


Is it they just dont give an S or they just dont happent to put in the page

[IamtheRock3]

Just want to address a few points here:

It's been argued that Spoiler doesn't deserve a memorial because her tenure as Baman's sidekick was so brief.

Well, for me, the point is not that Steph was only Robin for five days, but rather that she was Robin. This implies a level of trust, respect and, to some small degree, affection on the part of Batman that is no small thing.

I mean, if I ever became, say, king of Belgium, even if it was only for five days, do you think I'd ever shut up about it?

"Yeah, that's right, people, it's me: former king of Belgium. Waffle for an autograph, form an orderly queue..."

Furthermore, even if it's true that Batman was so callous as to use Steph to make Tim jealous enough to return, Bruce isn't an idiot; he's not going to take an incompetent out on patrol with him. He must have seen something in her.

Now add to that the fact that he set her on the path that got her killed (while not directly responsible, he encouraged her vigilantism by bringing her into his world) and really, a second line on that plaque is the friggin' least he can do!

Jason isn't even dead anymore, and he gets the whole case to himself?! :mad:


Also: Steph doesn't deserve a memorial because she was widely disliked? Huh? Jason Todd was voted to death by the majority of Batman readers! You're telling me that Steph has fewer fans than the guy that the fans paid good money to watch suffer and die?! I don't buy that as a fact or as an argument.


As for the question of what to blame on TPTB...

The editors are, of course, responsible for the 'choices' of the characters they control, but in the case of well-established figures like Batman (by now, older than the guys who are writing him), they should be careful not to contradict the quintessential personality of said figure, that long-established set of fundamental characteristics that transcends any individual story. If they do, they should explain it.

What if...in next months Action Comics, a story is published featuring Superman cheating on Lois Lane? With Ralph Dibny....

I imagine the fans would want an explanation. Why are these men betraying the loves of their lives? Why so gay now? Why's he doing Dibny, when Booster Gold's in town?

The answer, again, is that the editors are responsible, but the readers need some kind of in-story rationale, or it doesn't make sense. Or it does, but makes the hero involved look like a tool.

Or a misogynistic tool, in the case of OYL Batman.

Howsabout Bruce mentions something about not adding a Spoiler monument to the cave, because it would distress Tim, given how much closer he was to Steph? Or because he doesn't want to give the impression that Steph would still be Robin had she lived, and that tiny Tim only got his job back because she didn't? Some kind of explanation, please!


And as for Cassie Cain...

I wasn't really familiar with the new Bat Girl before I came to this forum. But after reading so many people raving about her, I checked out the TPBs.

Holy crap! Seriously, is she not the best character D.C.'s dreamed up in years?!

Great personality, great origin, great motivation, great 'power', ...

What really annoys me about the waste of the character is that editorial could have just stuck her on the ship with Bruce, Dick and Tim as they sailed away to parts unknown at the end of Infinite Crisis. This would then have given them a full year to decide what to do with her!

Instead we get the afterthought of, "Oh, Deathstroke made her eeeeeevil."

Gah! I'll happily let Superboy Prime kill all the Green Lanterns he wants, if he'll just retcon-punch Didio in the kidneys until we get Cass back! :mad:

If your using the War games thing

Bruce is an idiot though. His security was broken into by a teenage girl

Als Jason todd only lost by a little bit. Pretty sure if you had the same vote about spoiler it may be much higher

At the least 49.9 percent liked Jason. Heck if you HATE a charcter your more likely to vote him dead, then voting him to live if you LIKE him

[Captain Jim]

I get what youre saying, and I admit my comment was half-joking, but blaming writers for things characters do seems silly.

Superman only saves lives because TPTB make him. They don't WANT you to know he's a serial killer.

I mean, comics are comics, what happens in them happens in them. If we say somethings don't count because of editors, where do we draw the line, because everything happens because of TPTB.

I never said something "didn't count." But there are times when you simply cannot explain something by virtue of a hero's established character, etc., because it doesn't make sense by those standards. For instance, there is nothing within Tim's history or character that would explain why he would forget all about his dead girlfriend a week later. The only way you can explain why it happened is to realize that the creators had ulterior motives in depicting him that way.

Certainly there's a sense in which everything happens because the creators want it that way. But contrary to what you suggest, drawing the line is easy. It's when there is no explanation for a character's actions (or lack thereof) any other way.

That certainly makes more sense than coming up with some far-fetched idea like maybe he's really gay and didn't know it. :rolleyes:

[mattx110]

I never said something "didn't count." But there are times when you simply cannot explain something by virtue of a hero's established character, etc., because it doesn't make sense by those standards. For instance, there is nothing within Tim's history or character that would explain why he would forget all about his dead girlfriend a week later. The only way you can explain why it happened is to realize that the creators had ulterior motives in depicting him that way.

Certainly there's a sense in which everything happens because the creators want it that way. But contrary to what you suggest, drawing the line is easy. It's when there is no explanation for a character's actions (or lack thereof) any other way.

That certainly makes more sense than coming up with some far-fetched idea like maybe he's really gay and didn't know it. :rolleyes:

CONNOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyway, time is funny in comics. when they want to move on to the next story, sometimes they forget about the last one. which kinda kills the point of a serial format a little.

[elias_A]

I'm getting the impression that all the people that claim Steph was so incompetent haven't read that issue of Tec' where she and Bruce fight Mr.Zsazs.
It is narrated by Bruce and we witness clearly that he respects her skills and dedication. Of course he sees that she has still a lot to learn, but as far as we can tell he thinks her development is promising.

And she was not fired - besides obviously forced by editorial, so it makes not much sense in-story - because she wasn't "good enough", it was because she disobeyed his orders. That was in a situation that clearly Batman had not forseen and she had to improvise, (Batman was captured and almost killed by a villain), so it makes little sense to expect her to stick to the letters of his orders then.

And I've said it many times before - he fired her once before, as Spoiler, without any visible reason, he just seemed to suddenly have decided that she "doesn't have the skills or the talent". So what made him change his mind then to stop training her, and later to train her again and make her Robin?

I think the best way to make sense of this contradictions is to assume that she IS good enough but Batman sometimes doesn't want to train her anymore for other reasons.

So please stop saying things like "she wasn't good enough" or stuff like that. :evilangry

[Agentum]

Robin was simply invented for the kids that read Batman comics in those days so they could identify themself with somebody in the comic (and yes it was probably almost only boys that read these comics).
This made boy sidekicks pop up everywhere.

This has proven not to be necessary anymore and the sidekicks has more and more disapeared from the scene (a good thing i think).

Another thing i wonder about is why a hero couldnt have a adult sidekick, a sort of hero in training, why must it be a teenager?, well it has happened of course but is rare, also that the teenager is the hero and the adult the sidekick has happened now and then (variants of starsprangled kid, the old one from the 40s and now much later Stargirl with the stripes guy as a sidekick)

This is of course things that has been decided in real life, what sells comic books etc. and has nothing to do whatever Batman is a pedophile or whatever this made up character may think.
Like when Stan Lee wanted a teenager hero (Spider-man) and his boss shouted that it would never work, a teenager can't be a hero, he was proven wrong.

Me personally has heared those gayBatman jokes to many times, ok it was fun for a while, but really they should learn some comic history.

[Captain Jim]

Another thing i wonder about is why a hero couldnt have a adult sidekick, a sort of hero in training, why must it be a teenager?, well it has happened of course but is rare...

True. The one that came immediately to my mind was Captain America and the Falcon.

[founder81]

True. The one that came immediately to my mind was Captain America and the Falcon.

Mister Miracle had one for a time too during the JLI years. I can't think of the apprentice's name though.

Conan had, I believe, several adult "sidekicks" in the 180-220 issue range.

but Cap/Falcon I believe is the strongest example.

[BooCoo]

Bruce only hooks up with strong, independent women. Even the ones he's not serious about, so I wouldn't call him sexist. He doesn't seem to go for bubbleheads and dingalings.

[jesse_custer]

The correct answer to this question--which could be labeled "sexist" itself--is who cares?

[The Zapper]

Yes. Batman is the sexiest.

[Magneto_X]

Well there is somthing I like to call PLOT INDUCE DICKNISH


Batman treats women bad you say. Well So does BARBRA, why didnt she check on CASS for all that time. She mention her OUNCE and only ounce. Girl was like a sister to her. Turn evil and she didnt look into it. Kind of makes Barbra the C word come to think about it

You THINK she would. real Reason is Gail probally didnt feel like writing batgirl and explaining that stuity

Dunno. Perhaps it was editorial.

But you're wrong that Oracle didn't check on Cass. She appeared several times in Batgirl's book as a supporting character similar to Spoiler.

She was the one who complained to Bruce about why her gave her a mini-Batcave and no friends or life outside of it. Bats still did *nothing* despite that.

So you got assume maybe something happen between the scenes. Maybe batman does think about spoiler, no proof to say he doesnt

He did care about her in a few cameos i.e. fighting Cain. But after a few times he disappeared completely from her series. Most of it, in fact.

OTOH, we definitely have proof he didn't care once she went evil (re: Bechan's Robin).

Same reaosn why Flash dont use superspeed to make his town a utopia. Why batman dont building better Jails, Or most SUPER sciencetist dont cure diseases

To bad this isn't the Rumbles board or you'll have a case.

Either way he treated Cass and the other girls like dirt.

Is it they just dont give an S or they just dont happent to put in the page

Maybe, but that's only a theory. You have no evidence to back it up.

[Magneto_X]

I'm getting the impression that all the people that claim Steph was so incompetent haven't read that issue of Tec' where she and Bruce fight Mr.Zsazs.
It is narrated by Bruce and we witness clearly that he respects her skills and dedication. Of course he sees that she has still a lot to learn, but as far as we can tell he thinks her development is promising.
that she "doesn't have the skills or the talent". So what made him change his mind then to stop training her, and later to train her again and make her Robin?


Spoiler proved a capable fighter during a spotlight issue of Batgirl, too.

While Batgirl was in a coma she defeated a semi-elite Shiva cultist. It wasn't easy, but she did manage to accomplish the feat. Said cultists thought she was Batgirl & wanted to be killed by the one who defeated her master. This guy wasn't holding back, either. In the beginning he scared the sh*t out of Steph.

With a little help from the "ghost" of Cass to guide her. :D

[Magneto_X]

Bruce only hooks up with strong, independent women. Even the ones he's not serious about, so I wouldn't call him sexist. He doesn't seem to go for bubbleheads and dingalings.

Stephanie wasn't his girlfriend. She was *Robin*.

Besides Tim would be pissed if that happened! lol

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Stephanie wasn't his girlfriend. She was *Robin*.

Besides Tim would be pissed if that happened! lol

Considering she was a minor, I think a lot people would. ^_^

[dancj]

Mister Miracle had one for a time too during the JLI years. I can't think of the apprentice's name though.
That would be Shilo Norman - unless you're talking about Oberon

[founder81]

That would be Shilo Norman

that's who I'm thinking of.

[Rupertmetal]

Maybe Batman only has Jason Todd's suit in a case to remind him of a mistake he made. The mistake could be that he "let" Jason die or that he allowed him to be Robin in the first place.

Also, Batman wanted to kill Joker in Hush and one reason why was because of what he did to Babs.

And there was that story about Batman finding out that, that doctor chick who ran a clinic in Gotham let Spoiler die. And that infuriated him.

So, he has shown that he cares about people that don't have stuff in his batcave.

He can't just fill up his batcave with crap from everybody he cares about or has defeated.

[Magneto_X]

Maybe Batman only has Jason Todd's suit in a case to remind him of a mistake he made. The mistake could be that he "let" Jason die or that he allowed him to be Robin in the first place.

Aside from Stephanie being a girl how was her situation different from Jason's?

I doubt having two "mistakes" in his Batcave is going to break his mind just because he has two Robin outfits in cases.

Also, Batman wanted to kill Joker in Hush and one reason why was because of what he did to Babs.

What are you geting at? I'm not sure what you mean here.

And there was that story about Batman finding out that, that doctor chick who ran a clinic in Gotham let Spoiler die. And that infuriated him.

Wouldn't that make him wnat to honor Steph's memory more, not less? :confused:

So, he has shown that he cares about people that don't have stuff in his batcave.

He can't just fill up his batcave with crap from everybody he cares about or has defeated.

Half his Batcave ius filled with momentos from battles. See the giant dinosaur and the big coin.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Putting Steph´s uniform in the Batcave would be a logistics nightmare.
It would steal room from other artifacts like the dinossaur or the giant coin.

[colossus20]

Bats isn't sexist, he's realistic.

[Rupertmetal]

The boys have been like sons to Batman, and the girls have NOT been like daughters to him.

[Magneto_X]

The boys have been like sons to Batman, and the girls have NOT been like daughters to him.

Can you be more specific?

Bruce and Huntress have never got along but the others he did care for at times. Especially Oracle and Cass.

[pariah-1972]

Well lets see does anyone remember the "daddy Spank" episode with Catwoman?
thats not sexist at all:rolleyes:
and the way hes treated Huntress?
not to mention he only talks to Oracle when he needs info..
whens the last time Bats or Bruce has even had a girlfriend?

[Captain Jim]

Well lets see does anyone remember the "daddy Spank" episode with Catwoman?

Not me, you'll have to refresh my memory.

and the way hes treated Huntress?
not to mention he only talks to Oracle when he needs info..
whens the last time Bats or Bruce has even had a girlfriend?

None of that proves he's sexist; only that he's obsessed by his work and tends to use people in the process. Doesn't make any difference what gender they are.

[pariah-1972]

Not me, you'll have to refresh my memory.



None of that proves he's sexist; only that he's obsessed by his work and tends to use people in the process. Doesn't make any difference what gender they are.Ok but he only uses women,
gordon is practically a surrogate father to him in many ways.

as for the daddy spank episode here it is:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Catwoman-batman01.jpg

[FortKnox]

Putting Steph´s uniform in the Batcave would be a logistics nightmare.
It would steal room from other artifacts like the dinossaur or the giant coin.

And don't forget it would steal room from the 20 or so batmobiles he has collecting dust in the cave cause he doesn't even use half of them. Rich bastard with to much money. :p

[Craig T. Nelson]

Bats isn't sexist, he's realistic.

Bingo. Batman has no time for PC courtesy.

[Captain Jim]

Ok but he only uses women,
gordon is practically a surrogate father to him in many ways.

No, he DOESN'T only use women; he uses almost everybody at one time or another. And I think Alfred is more of a surrogate father than Gordon.

as for the daddy spank episode here it is:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Catwoman-batman01.jpg

Give me a break; that's from 1940. EVERYBODY was sexist back then!

[Chad]

There were a few occasions in the golden age where Batman would use the phrase "murder of my parents" interchangably with "murder of Thomas Wayne" as if his mother's death were just an asterix. I always found that pretty insulting.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

There were a few occasions in the golden age where Batman would use the phrase "murder of my parents" interchangably with "murder of Thomas Wayne" as if his mother's death were just an asterix. I always found that pretty insulting.

Well, in all fairness, it´s not like she was someone important, I mean, she was only his mother....

[Captain Jim]

There were a few occasions in the golden age where Batman would use the phrase "murder of my parents" interchangably with "murder of Thomas Wayne" as if his mother's death were just an asterix. I always found that pretty insulting.

I don't remember that at all, but if it exists, I'm sure it was just shorthand. Where did you read that?

[Chad]

I don't remember that at all, but if it exists, I'm sure it was just shorthand. Where did you read that?

- When Joe Chill is killed in Batman 48 we see the Casebook Batman kept on the Wayne's murder. The book is entitled 'The Murder of Thomas Wayne'.

- When Batman discovers that Chill was only a hired killer sent by Lew Moxon to kill Thomas and Martha Wayne, the case is reopened. When questioning Moxon he asks if he hired Chill to "kill Dr Wayne"; when Moxon seems to genuinely know nothing about the murder Robin remarks "we know he ordered your father's murder"; when Batman speaks with Gordon about the case, again his parent's murder is all about "Dr Wayne's murder"; when Batman figures out why Moxon doesn't remember anything about the plot he once again refers to the case as the "murder of Dr Wayne".

Now I realise that when these stories were published, Batman's history had been revised so that Martha Wayne wasn't shot by Chill - instead she suffered a fatal heart attack during the hold-up. But I mean, Batman goes on and on about his father's death; the murder of Thomas Wayne; "the man you murdered"; and almost completely leaves out any mention of his mother.

- But even if you could argue that Martha Wayne having died of a heart attack absolves Chill/Moxon of any guilt, there's still the Brave and the Bold 184 which came out long after it was re-established that yes, Batman's mother was in fact shot by Chill. In this story, Batman is led to believe that Thomas Wayne was bankrolling a well-known gangster. Disgusted by this seeming fact he goes to his parent's gravesite and announces that he can no longer be Batman since the reason for his war on crime has been irrepairably tarnished. Now, the evidence in this story only seems to prove Thomas Wayne's guilt - there is no suggestion that his mother had anything to do or knew anything about her husband's illicit dealings - but not once does he say "Well, my crusade can still be about avenging my mother at least".

[founder81]

It seems you're grasping at flies.

If Martha Wayne died of a heart attack, why would the casefile mention her as a "murder"?

Again, If Martha was just a "side effect" of the murder, Batman isn't sexist for just looking for his father's murderer. This wouldn't absolve all guilt in the murderer, but he didn't murder Martha Wayne.

If a story printed years later doesn't pair up with previous stories, how are those stories suddenly sexist?

[Captain Jim]

Agreed. And even when Chill is portrayed as shooting them both, he was only HIRED to kill Thomas. He went on to kill Martha as well because she was screaming and he was afraid someone would hear her. So I think Chad is missing the point here.

[witchboy]

If somebody shot my dad and my mom had a heart attack at the scene , I would certainly blame the shooter for both deaths .
Batman obsessing over his father 's murder while barely mentioning his mother during that story sounds really sexist to me .

[Darth Joker]

Batman does have a sort of hypermachismo about him, and perhaps that means he has a hard time relating to women.

Also, there's the fact that he had no real mother in his life from age 8 onward, so that probably doesn't help a young lad learn how to relate to the opposite sex (he did have a surrogate father of sorts in Alfred).

All in all, I don't think that Batman is sexist, per se, but he might have a problem truly understanding women.

[Magneto_X]

If Martha Wayne died of a heart attack, why would the casefile mention her as a "murder"?

Maybe she died from a fright i.e. heart attack during the shooting?

[Chad]

If somebody shot my dad and my mom had a heart attack at the scene , I would certainly blame the shooter for both deaths .
Batman obsessing over his father 's murder while barely mentioning his mother during that story sounds really sexist to me .

Exactly. Batman does say "that single bullet really killed two people" so it isn't as if he's forgotten about Chill's role in his mother's death, but he seems so unaffected by it. The fact that he could react so emotionally when he's confronting Chill by shouting "I am the son of the man you murdered!" or chasing Moxon in his father's Batman suit, while at the same time being so unemotional that he can't even bring himself to hold them responsible for his mother's murder is a hard one to reconcile.

Why would Batman care about the legal aspects of whether or not Chill is guilty of second-degree murder or manslaughter or whatever, why isn't he reacting emotionally when it comes to his own mother? Why wouldn't his own casebook - which is not going to be submitted to a court of law and is for his eyes only - read "The Murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne". I mean could you imagine Alfred saying "I beg your pardon sir, but isn't Mr Chill only responsible for your father's death?" and Batman responding "My God you're right Alfred, what a horrible mistake I almost made!"?

The reason I brought up two sets of stories which "don't pair up" is so that if you could dismiss Batman's attitude by saying "Well the only stories you found which back up your claim are ones in which technically, Chill didn't kill Batman's mother" I could respond by presenting a story in which this excuse isn't valid because in the later story, Chill did shoot Martha Wayne. It justs seems like one Freudian slip after another. While calmly recounting his origin, Batman will mention the murder of his parents, but when reacting emotionally (whether it be while pummelling Chill or shouting "My parent's deserved to die!" even though what he's recently learned has nothing to do with his mother) it's his father that he's thinking about.

[pariah-1972]

And lets not forget that Martha Wayne was barely mentioned in Batman Returns.

[Magneto_X]

The reason I brought up two sets of stories which "don't pair up" is so that if you could dismiss Batman's attitude by saying "Well the only stories you found which back up your claim are ones in which technically, Chill didn't kill Batman's mother" I could respond by presenting a story in which this excuse isn't valid because in the later story, Chill did shoot Martha Wayne. It justs seems like one Freudian slip after another. While calmly recounting his origin, Batman will mention the murder of his parents, but when reacting emotionally (whether it be while pummelling Chill or shouting "My parent's deserved to die!" even though what he's recently learned has nothing to do with his mother) it's his father that he's thinking about.

Unless it's been retconned Batman: Year One had Chill/the killer shoot both of his parents. The same scene is in both the Begins movie *and* DKR.

[Captain Jim]

If somebody shot my dad and my mom had a heart attack at the scene , I would certainly blame the shooter for both deaths .
Batman obsessing over his father 's murder while barely mentioning his mother during that story sounds really sexist to me .

You people aren't hearing me. I'm not saying Chill isn't liable or to blame for killing both. I'm saying you can't fault Bruce for telling Moxon, "You hired Joe
Chill to kill my father" instead of "You hired Joe Chill to kill my father and mother," because he freakin' DIDN'T hire Chill to kill his mother! Chill did that one all on his own! So that statement cannot fairly be used to prove that Bruce doesn't care about his mother. My gosh, what's so complicated about this? It isn't rocket science.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Why did they have her die of heart attack anyway?
They figured a bullet would be too good for her or something?

[witchboy]

Batman did have a surrogate mother after Martha's death , Leslie Thompkins .