Wolverine=leader

[pariah-1972]

This is my first time starting my own thread so please be nice to me:
i just want to know why marvel is dead against Wolverine being a leader?
he's got the most experience in combat situations and he has plenty of tactical experience being in the military and all.
not to mention that everyone respects him and looks up to him which you can't say about Cyclops or anyone else.
i thought it was really hilarious back in the 80s when Wolverine decided that Kitty should be the leader when they went back to get Thunderbirds body ( i think thats what they were doing at least...)
Kitty was still a teenager and completely inexperienced in leading so what did she do? she kept asking Wolverine for advice..
that was patently hilarious to me.
anyways what do you think ? yes or no? and what are the reasons why??

[Brian M.]

Everyone respects Cyclops too. They may not like him personally, but they respect him and know that when it comes to making the right decision in the field.

[Pach!]

I think he would make a great leader.

But then again ..under the right writer anyone could be a leader. I really don't see one character that I wouldn't let lead a team. Maybe Beak. Maybe.

[Brian M.]

I think Wolverine could lead...I just don't think he can lead better then Cyclops or Storm even.

[Pach!]

I think Wolverine could lead...I just don't think he can lead better then Cyclops or Storm even.
I agree.


But if say Cyclops would go all Jean on us and die and Storm is busy cooking for the Black Panther or something, I think Wolverine could do a great job if he was needed to.

[Brian M.]

I agree.


But if say Cyclops would go all Jean on us and die and Storm is busy cooking for the Black Panther or something, I think Wolverine could do a great job if he was needed to.

So do I. I can see teams being led by Wolverine, Cannonball and Nightcrawler.

[Nyssane]

Uh, look what Wolverine's doing in the pages of Cable & Deadpool. Would you really want someone like that to be a leader of the team?

[Slant]

Yeah, Wolverine could probably lead a team. Not exactly over the likes of Cyclops or Storm as previously mentioned, but otherwise, yeah.

[adam_warlock_2099]

I agree.


But if say Cyclops would go all Jean on us and die and Storm is busy cooking for the Black Panther or something, I think Wolverine could do a great job if he was needed to.

From Goddess to housewife? Sounds like a good reality show.

I've always thought that besides Cyclops (which I don't like, but is a good leader) and Storm, Nightcrawler has awesome potential to lead a team.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I like Wolvie, but, really, he's a nutjob.

Leading a black-ops assassin teams not giving a f**k whether people survive or not on either side? Sure.

Anything else? Please.

[pariah-1972]

Everyone respects Cyclops too. They may not like him personally, but they respect him and know that when it comes to making the right decision in the field.Actually i think he lost a lot of respect when he decided to cheat with Emma behind Jeans back.
Beast turned his back on him and told him he lost respect for him and Wolverine attacked him and called him names in the first Astonishing.

[kate-pryde]

Wolverine is more of a loner and doesn't want the responsibility of leading.

He does step up when he needs to, but Logan's confident in his abilities that he doesn't need that to boost his ego by bossing everyone else around.

His leadership is also shown in doing things like making Kitty the team leader (in Uncanny X-Men 195 when they were rescuing the Power Pack). The fact that Logan wanted to help build Kitty's confidence and develop her leadership skills helped the team more than him telling everyone what to do.

[Pach!]

Actually i think he lost a lot of respect when he decided to cheat with Emma behind Jeans back.
Beast turned his back on him and told him he lost respect for him and Wolverine attacked him and called him names in the first Astonishing.

Also in Astonishing: (paraphrasing)

"Every now and then Summer, I remember why you are in charge".


Everyone respects Scott.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Actually i think he lost a lot of respect when he decided to cheat with Emma behind Jeans back.
Beast turned his back on him and told him he lost respect for him and Wolverine attacked him and called him names in the first Astonishing.

To be fair, any male who's ever had interest in Jean is *kinda* being hypocritical when it comes to the Jott debacle.

The whole 'we lost for nothing' thingy. Kinda cracks me up how Wolvie pulled a 180 on that one just cause Joss wanted that scene, but oh well.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Also in Astonishing: (paraphrasing)

"Every now and then Summer, I remember why you are in charge".


Everyone respects Scott.

And here I thought the point of the quote rather had to do how they don't show/act like it most of the time.

After all, telling off Cyke has been instant cool for years.

[pariah-1972]

I think Wolverine could lead...I just don't think he can lead better then Cyclops or Storm even.I'm wondering if Wolverine would have taken the leadership role in the Morlocks and then immediately abandon it for the X-men>?
it was a stupid thing anyways since he just directed all the authority back to Callisto in the first place and told her to stop kidnapping people? which by the way they didn't stop doing if i remember correctly..
its ok for Storm not to be perfect but if she would have stayed with the Morlocks and been there real leader the Morlock Massacre would have never happened.

[Pach!]

And here I thought the point of the quote rather had to do how they don't show/act like it most of the time.

What I meant is that even Wolverine realizes there is a reason Cyclops is in charge.

[pariah-1972]

Wolverine is more of a loner and doesn't want the responsibility of leading.

He does step up when he needs to, but Logan's confident in his abilities that he doesn't need that to boost his ego by bossing everyone else around.

His leadership is also shown in doing things like making Kitty the team leader (in Uncanny X-Men 195 when they were rescuing the Power Pack). The fact that Logan wanted to help build Kitty's confidence and develop her leadership skills helped the team more than him telling everyone what to do.So it was more important to nuture Kittys feelings than to be a leader when they needed him? i thought the reason he did it was because he was too chicken to actually lead which would cause a power play drama between Prof x,Scott and Storm.

[Hi-Fi]

After all, telling off Cyke has been instant cool for years.
I know, right??

I hope the next one who tells off Cyclops is Karma!

[pariah-1972]

To be fair, any male who's ever had interest in Jean is *kinda* being hypocritical when it comes to the Jott debacle.

The whole 'we lost for nothing' thingy. Kinda cracks me up how Wolvie pulled a 180 on that one just cause Joss wanted that scene, but oh well.What do you mean by "jott debacle" ? im confused is that when Wolverine made the moves on Jean when they were about to die during Morrisons run ??

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

What I meant is that even Wolverine realizes there is a reason Cyclops is in charge.

Oh, I know. Still, my point is it doesn't account for much if people don't act like it.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

What do you mean by "jott debacle" ? im confused is that when Wolverine made the moves on Jean when they were about to die during Morrisons run ??

The 180 was a reference to the strip club scene. Wolvie basically said he was pissed that Cyke won the girl and yet went for another.

Guy wasn't pretending to be standing on some moral high ground like during Whedon's scene.

[Pach!]

I know, right??

I hope the next one who tells off Cyclops is Karma!

"Karma, can you iron my uniform for me?"

"NO! go get the prostitute of a girlfriend you have to do it for you!"

[pariah-1972]

Also in Astonishing: (paraphrasing)

"Every now and then Summer, I remember why you are in charge".


Everyone respects Scott.But then you say that everyone relishes a chance to tell Scott off ? what kind of respect is that??

the only person who has ever had any problems with Wolvie is Scott and Marrow and he both earned there respect instead of demanding it.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I know, right??

I hope the next one who tells off Cyclops is Karma!

I'd actually laugh at the scene. :D

[Hi-Fi]

"Karma, can you iron my uniform for me?"

"NO! go get the prostitute of a girlfriend you have to do it for you!"
Needs to happen!

"Hey, Loa, what you're watching?"

"STFU, you're NOT my father!"

[pariah-1972]

The 180 was a reference to the strip club scene. Wolvie basically said he was pissed that Cyke won the girl and yet went for another.

Guy wasn't pretending to be standing on some moral high ground like during Whedon's scene.I'm really confused about what you are saying can you please tell me where this is? the only strip club scene i recall was when Scott went to the hellfire club to be depressed and even then he was using a psychic to imagine Jean.

[Rich L]

Didn't Wolverine lead the X-Men just before the Fall of the Mutants, from #220-#224 while Storm was off trying to get her powers back?

And didn't he end up taking them to Dallas to get 'killed' by the Adversary?

Pretty good case against him being team leader, I'd say.

[Jottma]

I personally don't feel he should lead because it goes against his characer and personally I don't won't my boy to be taking orders from Logan. Plus if there were any place where Wolvie needs to stand up and take the reins its over in the New Avengers. I just don't see how he isn't leader of this rag tag group which I think could really benefit from his vast experience.

Anyways fret not pariah- 1972, you will get to experience Logan leading when they finally get around to airing "Wolverine and the X-Men". It feels like forever since this project was first mentioned.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I'm really confused about what you are saying can you please tell me where this is? the only strip club scene i recall was when Scott went to the hellfire club to be depressed and even then he was using a psychic to imagine Jean.

That's the one.

End of the issue. Wolvie goes on about Cyke getting the best girls, having the nice/steady life and throwing it away.

[Brian M.]

Actually i think he lost a lot of respect when he decided to cheat with Emma behind Jeans back.
Beast turned his back on him and told him he lost respect for him and Wolverine attacked him and called him names in the first Astonishing.

Again your not seeing the difference in not liking someone and respecting them. I don't like the Clintons, but I respect the sacrifices they make to lead. In battle, on the field, Cyclops has more then proven he is the leader of this team. Wolverine is a great fighter, tactician...no. How tactical is it to just pop claws and kill everyone who points a finger at you?

I'm wondering if Wolverine would have taken the leadership role in the Morlocks and then immediately abandon it for the X-men>?
it was a stupid thing anyways since he just directed all the authority back to Callisto in the first place and told her to stop kidnapping people? which by the way they didn't stop doing if i remember correctly..
its ok for Storm not to be perfect but if she would have stayed with the Morlocks and been there real leader the Morlock Massacre would have never happened.

Are you talking about Cyclops or Wolverine? I'm not quite sure b/c you neglect to use any kind of grammar. Cyclops was w/ X-Factor recruiting mutants and teaching them how to use their powers. Storm was the leader of the X-Men then, Cyke had not a damn thing to do w/ Callisto/Storm.

[Hi-Fi]

Didn't Wolverine lead the X-Men just before the Fall of the Mutants, from #220-#224 while Storm was off trying to get her powers back?

And didn't he end up taking them to Dallas to get 'killed' by the Adversary?

Pretty good case against him being team leader, I'd say.
He didn't want to lead, though. He told Storm to pick Rogue or Psylocke.


I think Wolverine is perfectly ready to lead. He has all the experience it takes. He just doesn't want to. He's a loner. He wants to have freedom to leave whenever he wants to to deal with his business without having to justify himself to the team. He doesn't want the responsibility.

[Pach!]

Again your not seeing the difference in not liking someone and respecting them. I don't like the Clintons, but I respect the sacrifices they make to lead. In battle, on the field, Cyclops has more then proven he is the leader of this team. Wolverine is a great fighter, tactician...no. How tactical is it to just pop claws and kill everyone who points a finger at you?



Are you talking about Cyclops or Wolverine? I'm not quite sure b/c you neglect to use any kind of grammar. Cyclops was w/ X-Factor recruiting mutants and teaching them how to use their powers. Storm was the leader of the X-Men then, Cyke had not a damn thing to do w/ Callisto/Storm.

SNIKT

*cuts Brian's finger off*

[Brian M.]

I personally don't feel he should lead because it goes against his characer and personally I don't won't my boy to be taking orders from Logan. Plus if there were any place where Wolvie needs to stand up and take the reins its over in the New Avengers. I just don't see how he isn't leader of this rag tag group which I think could really benefit from his vast experience.

Anyways fret not pariah- 1972, you will get to experience Logan leading when they finally get around to airing "Wolverine and the X-Men". It feels like forever since this project was first mentioned.

Yea, the stuff that goes to the movies and television is kinda a joke. Wolverine leading over Cyclops is ridiculous. I like Wolverine, but he's not a leader. Claremont showed early on, that while Wolverine was a great fighter, he's too rash.

[Hi-Fi]

I disagree, Brian. I think Logan has skills, experience and it's a great tactician. He was a spy afterall. Also, read his Madripoor issues for more.

He's also great at forming combatants.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Newsflash, folks, tactics stopped meaning jacks**t in the x-verse years ago. ;)

Them making a big deal of Cyke having a plan in AXM kinda gave it away. :eek:

[pariah-1972]

He didn't want to lead, though. He told Storm to pick Rogue or Psylocke.


I think Wolverine is perfectly ready to lead. He has all the experience it takes. He just doesn't want to. He's a loner. He wants to have freedom to leave whenever he wants to to deal with his business without having to justify himself to the team. He doesn't want the responsibility.
You're right absolutely i agree.
of course sometimes the best leaders are the ones who wont it the least.

[pariah-1972]

I personally don't feel he should lead because it goes against his characer and personally I don't won't my boy to be taking orders from Logan. Plus if there were any place where Wolvie needs to stand up and take the reins its over in the New Avengers. I just don't see how he isn't leader of this rag tag group which I think could really benefit from his vast experience.

Anyways fret not pariah- 1972, you will get to experience Logan leading when they finally get around to airing "Wolverine and the X-Men". It feels like forever since this project was first mentioned.I stopped reading New Avengers right before the civil war but who is leading the team now?
i'm not sure i could see Wolvie leading that team since he wouldn't have anyone to hold him back when he gets tired of Spider-mans snarky comments.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

People normally shouldn't have to hold back a leader. It's kinda part of the *leader's* job description.

[pariah-1972]

Again your not seeing the difference in not liking someone and respecting them. I don't like the Clintons, but I respect the sacrifices they make to lead. In battle, on the field, Cyclops has more then proven he is the leader of this team. Wolverine is a great fighter, tactician...no. How tactical is it to just pop claws and kill everyone who points a finger at you?



Are you talking about Cyclops or Wolverine? I'm not quite sure b/c you neglect to use any kind of grammar. Cyclops was w/ X-Factor recruiting mutants and teaching them how to use their powers. Storm was the leader of the X-Men then, Cyke had not a damn thing to do w/ Callisto/Storm.I don't neglect grammar i'm just really shitty at it and i'm sorry for that but i have a learning disability (i'm not sure if that counts)
I'm not blaming Cyclops for the Morlock disaster cause he wasn't there at the time tho i really don't think he would approve.

[pariah-1972]

People normally shouldn't have to hold back a leader. It's kinda part of the *leader's* job description.But thats why i don't want to see him as leader of the Na Bendis is still writing him as a foul short tempered mofo in his book.
but he has a different personality in the x-men books mostly, at least in my opinion he does.

[Mikl C]

Also in Astonishing: (paraphrasing)

"Every now and then Summer, I remember why you are in charge".



Like, from the OC?

[Wild Card13]

The time to put Wolverine at the reins of anything is when you need something destroyed, and I mean completely obliterated. You put Wolverine in charge in situations where Storm or Cyclops would hesitate. Beyond that, there are far more capable and diplomatic leaders around. Hell, I think Cage is doing a hell of a job over in New Avengers.

[Pach!]

Like, from the OC?

Yup. She had jut got in a huge fight with Marissa and totally humiliated her in the hallway at school. Ryan beat her up afterwards.

[Mikl C]

LOLZ.
She had a rage blackout and snapped marissa's spine.

[tjarvis]

This is my first time starting my own thread so please be nice to me:
i just want to know why marvel is dead against Wolverine being a leader?
he's got the most experience in combat situations and he has plenty of tactical experience being in the military and all.
not to mention that everyone respects him and looks up to him which you can't say about Cyclops or anyone else.
i thought it was really hilarious back in the 80s when Wolverine decided that Kitty should be the leader when they went back to get Thunderbirds body ( i think thats what they were doing at least...)
Kitty was still a teenager and completely inexperienced in leading so what did she do? she kept asking Wolverine for advice..
that was patently hilarious to me.
anyways what do you think ? yes or no? and what are the reasons why??

Because you don't want to have a leader who has a habit of flying into beserker rages on a semi-regular occurrence?

Calm under pressure tends to be a hallmark of good leadership.

[pariah-1972]

Because you don't want to have a leader who has a habit of flying into beserker rages on a semi-regular occurrence?

Calm under pressure tends to be a hallmark of good leadership.Maybe thats true, but it usually takes a lot for him to go into one of those.

[DDM]

Wolverine was reluctant to lead because he never knew when he would lose control of himself & become a liability for the X-Men. I think the only times he has lead has been under dire circumstances such as when the X-Men almost shattered from the onslaught of The Mutant Massacre; therefore, Wolverine was the only X-Man fit to lead since Rogue & Psylocke were nowhere near ready & Storm went on a vision quest with Naze to regain her elemental powers from Uncanny X-Men #221-227.

[creaky]

I've always thought that besides Cyclops (which I don't like, but is a good leader) and Storm, Nightcrawler has awesome potential to lead a team.

Not just potential, he's done it for a decade or so (not sure how long that was in canon years). Wish more writers would remember it, though.

[DDM]

Didn't Wolverine lead the X-Men just before the Fall of the Mutants, from #220-#224 while Storm was off trying to get her powers back?

And didn't he end up taking them to Dallas to get 'killed' by the Adversary?

Pretty good case against him being team leader, I'd say.

Storm took over from Wolverine when she returned.

[kate-pryde]

So it was more important to nuture Kittys feelings than to be a leader when they needed him? i thought the reason he did it was because he was too chicken to actually lead which would cause a power play drama between Prof x,Scott and Storm.

It's not like they were in a life or death situation or he didn't have Kitty's back. There wasn't a reason that Logan needed to lead in that situation. But giving Kitty experience in that type of situation was valuable to her.

Logan understands his role with the team. Leading isn't his thing, but teaching is. He's nearly always been a good mentor to the younger members of the team.

Logan probably wants to stay out of the way of any power struggle between Xavier, Scott and Storm unless it directly impacted him. But he also respects them for having leadership abilities that he doesn't.

[rwsmith]

This is my first time starting my own thread so please be nice to me:
i just want to know why marvel is dead against Wolverine being a leader?
he's got the most experience in combat situations and he has plenty of tactical experience being in the military and all.
not to mention that everyone respects him and looks up to him which you can't say about Cyclops or anyone else.
i thought it was really hilarious back in the 80s when Wolverine decided that Kitty should be the leader when they went back to get Thunderbirds body ( i think thats what they were doing at least...)
Kitty was still a teenager and completely inexperienced in leading so what did she do? she kept asking Wolverine for advice..
that was patently hilarious to me.
anyways what do you think ? yes or no? and what are the reasons why??

I totally think Wolverine could lead a team of X-men. I also wouldn't be surprised if we see this happen in the comics around the time that the new cartoon debuts, as he's supposed to be the leader of the X-men in it.

[The Horhey]

Wolverine is a leader and a mentor, but he doesnt lead the team becouse he doesnt have to.

[Red Lotus]

Leading a black-ops assassin teams not giving a f**k whether people survive or not on either side? Sure.



I think you're half right about that. Logan can not lead a super hero team who is going to go in and save the day. But if its all out war, then he is great for that. He needs to be able to do whatever it is he does best and unless its all out go in kill or be killed, I just dont see him as a leader.

[The Horhey]

Yea, the stuff that goes to the movies and television is kinda a joke. Wolverine leading over Cyclops is ridiculous. I like Wolverine, but he's not a leader. Claremont showed early on, that while Wolverine was a great fighter, he's too rash.

There have been alot of times when Wolverine was right and Cyclops was wrong though.

[z0mbie_aut0pil0t]

Logan is too much of a loose cannon to be leading a team into battle.

[Papa Moai]

He didn't want to lead, though. He told Storm to pick Rogue or Psylocke.


I think Wolverine is perfectly ready to lead. He has all the experience it takes. He just doesn't want to. He's a loner. He wants to have freedom to leave whenever he wants to to deal with his business without having to justify himself to the team. He doesn't want the responsibility.I agree. Logan does have the potential to be a good leader. However he prefers to stay in the background. That way he can sometimes act rashly and know that he has someone like Cyke or Storm to keep him in check and at other times he can act as the raspy voice of experience for his team-mates. I think it's the best role for him. That way he and his team (and the readers) get the best of both worlds.

the only person who has ever had any problems with Wolvie is Scott and Marrow and he both earned there respect instead of demanding it.As I recall most of the X-Men had problems with him when he first joined. Back then he was portrayed as an angry jerk with a huge chip on his shoulder at best and a homicidal maniac at worst. Cyclops took the worst heat from the early-Logan because of Jean and because he was the one who had to give Logan orders. But you're right, over time Logan did grow into a better person and these days he has the respect and even friendship of most of his fellow X-Men.

[Pro]

i just want to know why marvel is dead against Wolverine being a leader?

If they were so deadset against it why is there going to be an animated series about exactly that concept .. ?

[chrismileslord]

I would love to see Wolverine as a leader of an underground style team, doing what the X-Men can't do publicly. Kind of like a "Outsiders" style book, but for Marvel.

[Bulky Brent]

I see him leading a S.H.I.E.L.D unit or a Heroes For Higher Regime but not the X-Men

[Brand]

I stopped reading New Avengers right before the civil war but who is leading the team now?
i'm not sure i could see Wolvie leading that team since he wouldn't have anyone to hold him back when he gets tired of Spider-mans snarky comments.

Cage is the new leader.

And Wolverine wouldn't stand a chance in a realistic fight against Spidey. He'd get his butt thrown to New Jersey if the two were written to use their full powers. Spidey is the exact opposite of Wolverine: whereas Logan is almost always written as more powerful (speed, healing factor) than he should be, Spider-Man has to be powered-down to give many opponents a chance.

Back on topic...

I think Logan CAN be a leader, but only in certain situations. He isn't the type the X-Men would rely on every day like Cyke. That's one of the reasons the new animated series is so ridiculous. It goes against everything the character has been about up to now.

[Titan76]

Cage is the new leader.

And Wolverine wouldn't stand a chance in a realistic fight against Spidey. He'd get his butt thrown to New Jersey if the two were written to use their full powers. Spidey is the exact opposite of Wolverine: whereas Logan is almost always written as more powerful (speed, healing factor) than he should be, Spider-Man has to be powered-down to give many opponents a chance.

Back on topic...

I think Logan CAN be a leader, but only in certain situations. He isn't the type the X-Men would rely on every day like Cyke. That's one of the reasons the new animated series is so ridiculous. It goes against everything the character has been about up to now.
Best answer so far.

[The Lucky One]

He doesn't want to lead. Simple as that. He prefers to be the grizzled veteran who gives everyone the benefit of his combat experience, but without having to take on the actual responsibility of leading. Which, frankly, is exactly the right move... he's not a leader. He can (and has) pinch-hit when need be, but he's not the kind of idealistic, boy scout-ish person that soldiers naturally rally around and turn to for leadership... he's the behind the scenes guy who gives advice to the leader. When Wolverine is actually in battle he loses all sense of who and where he is, flying into a berserker rage and attacking wildly; you can't have that in a leader. You need a cool, calm person who keeps his head and assesses the situation tactically while it's going on. Wolverine has great tactical advice before and after a battle, but he has no control during it, which is what disqualifies him from being a true leader.

Which, frankly, he recognizes himself (under good writers, anyway). When Storm made him take over leadership while she went to get her powers back, he did it only reluctantly and handed back the reins as soon as she returned. When Scott and Jean were going off to Alaska during the Seagle/Kelly run, they made Wolverine take over leadership, and he told Scott he didn't want it but would do it if they absolutely insisted. However, it's plain that Wolverine doesn't desire a leadership role... he'd much rather be the wild card who gets to play the rebel and make digs at the actual leader when he feels it's merited.

-D

[pariah-1972]

If they were so deadset against it why is there going to be an animated series about exactly that concept .. ?I didn't know till today that he was leading it.
and i don't know how much control Marvel has over there animated programs.

[pariah-1972]

Cage is the new leader.

And Wolverine wouldn't stand a chance in a realistic fight against Spidey. He'd get his butt thrown to New Jersey if the two were written to use their full powers. Spidey is the exact opposite of Wolverine: whereas Logan is almost always written as more powerful (speed, healing factor) than he should be, Spider-Man has to be powered-down to give many opponents a chance.

Back on topic...

I think Logan CAN be a leader, but only in certain situations. He isn't the type the X-Men would rely on every day like Cyke. That's one of the reasons the new animated series is so ridiculous. It goes against everything the character has been about up to now.I honestly don't understand how you can think Spidey could beat Wolverine...

[The Fury]

I honestly don't understand how you can think Spidey could beat Wolverine...

Spider sense and reaction to match help a lot. Spider-man is one of the few characters that could take Wolverine in a fight. Wolverine is good but he's lashes out and makes mistakes.



As a leader, Wolverine should not be, he doesn't respect human life enough first of all, and compared to other team leaders, he's just not good enough. He can pass his experience and wisdom on to others, that is fine.

[The Lucky One]

I honestly don't understand how you can think Spidey could beat Wolverine...

Because he... usually does? :confused: Hell, he took on all the X-Men at once during Secret Wars and held his own long enough to get away... would've been successful if not for Professor X.

In a realistic battle, Wolverine cannot lay a hand on Spidey. Ever. That's just being realistic, he's not fast enough. He's also not nearly as strong as Spidey, and while his senses and general sneakiness give him a major advantage with most foes, spider-sense renders that advantage null and void. Add in the fact that Spidey's webbing gives him the major reach advantage and a ranged attack, and it's just not a contest- you can't slash what you can't hit, and a healing factor isn't going to keep him from getting knocked out. The Fury's right, Spidey wins that fight 9 out of 10 times.

-D

[pariah-1972]

Because he... usually does? :confused: Hell, he took on all the X-Men at once during Secret Wars and held his own long enough to get away... would've been successful if not for Professor X.

In a realistic battle, Wolverine cannot lay a hand on Spidey. Ever. That's just being realistic, he's not fast enough. He's also not nearly as strong as Spidey, and while his senses and general sneakiness give him a major advantage with most foes, spider-sense renders that advantage null and void. Add in the fact that Spidey's webbing gives him the major reach advantage and a ranged attack, and it's just not a contest- you can't slash what you can't hit, and a healing factor isn't going to keep him from getting knocked out. The Fury's right, Spidey wins that fight 9 out of 10 times.

-DIt's obvious that spidey is more agile and faster than wolverine
but hes not strong enough to knock him out and his webbing couldn't hold him.
so unless he came up with some new gizmo to defeat him like he does Electro i can't see him being able to defeat him.

[Brian M.]

It's obvious that spidey is more agile and faster than wolverine
but hes not strong enough to knock him out and his webbing couldn't hold him.
so unless he came up with some new gizmo to defeat him like he does Electro i can't see him being able to defeat him.

Blinded by love.

[_Jayme_]

Wolverine is way too unpredictable as a leader and leaves whenever he feels like it. You need someone like Cyclops or Havok who you know are going to stay in the heat of battle and keep the team morale up..Wolverine, however would be attacking whatever comes his way and thinking of himself.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

but hes not strong enough to knock him out

Repeated hits with a sledgehammer in the face would do the trick. Spidey hits that hard.

and his webbing couldn't hold him.
Couldn't hold the *claws*. Big big difference.

[pariah-1972]

Repeated hits with a sledgehammer in the face would do the trick. Spidey hits that hard.


Couldn't hold the *claws*. Big big difference.The claws can cut enough of the webbing for him to get out.
i've never known spidey to his as hard as a jackhammer.

[Sean Whitmore]

And Wolverine wouldn't stand a chance in a realistic fight against Spidey.

What's a "realistic" fight?

Not to break balls, but Spidey has been tagged by every slow-moving threat from Tarantula to Hammerhead.

Realistic fights are boring as hell, that's why they almost never happen in comics.


SEAN

[Brand]

It's obvious that spidey is more agile and faster than wolverine
but hes not strong enough to knock him out and his webbing couldn't hold him.
so unless he came up with some new gizmo to defeat him like he does Electro i can't see him being able to defeat him.

I thought I'd said my piece on this, and I didn't want the thread to go off-topic, but since others have chimed in I guess I'll add to their observations.

It's obvious that you're a Wolverine fan, but I'm guessing don't know much about Spidey. As someone who has read both X-Men and Spider-Man for a long time, allow me to point out that Spider-Man counts among his regular villains a number of bad guys who are just as tough, if not tougher, than Logan. Venom, Carnage, the Rhino...any of those names ring a bell? And Spidey has gone toe-to-toe with all of them on many occasions.

Forget being hit in the face with a sledgehammer. Spider-Man started out in the 10-ton class, but after his recent power upgrade that's been increased to 20-25 tons. That FAR outclasses Logan. I might have to look it up again, but I believe his reaction time is something like 15x that of a normal human. Couple those stats with a spider-sense that warns him of danger, the agility to practically dance circles around Logan in a fight, and the quips to make Logan lose his cool and fight without using his head...this is one very, very uneven contest.

Yes, Logan can cut through the webbing (though he wouldn't be able to in real life, but that's an argument for another day. Logan's claws and his ability to cut through anything is one of the biggest physics mistakes in the Marvel U), but Spidey can just cocoon him up so that he can't move his arms to slice himself free. And if he didn't want to bother doing that, he could just shoot a web to Logan's feet, spin a few times for momentum, and chuck that Canuck's rear end a couple hundred miles away. End of fight.

[The Horhey]

I thought I'd said my piece on this, and I didn't want the thread to go off-topic, but since others have chimed in I guess I'll add to their observations.

It's obvious that you're a Wolverine fan, but I'm guessing don't know much about Spidey. As someone who has read both X-Men and Spider-Man for a long time, allow me to point out that Spider-Man counts among his regular villains a number of bad guys who are just as tough, if not tougher, than Logan. Venom, Carnage, the Rhino...any of those names ring a bell? And Spidey has gone toe-to-toe with all of them on many occasions.

Forget being hit in the face with a sledgehammer. Spider-Man started out in the 10-ton class, but after his recent power upgrade that's been increased to 20-25 tons. That FAR outclasses Logan. I might have to look it up again, but I believe his reaction time is something like 15x that of a normal human. Couple those stats with a spider-sense that warns him of danger, the agility to practically dance circles around Logan in a fight, and the quips to make Logan lose his cool and fight without using his head...this is one very, very uneven contest.

Yes, Logan can cut through the webbing (though he wouldn't be able to in real life, but that's an argument for another day. Logan's claws and his ability to cut through anything is one of the biggest physics mistakes in the Marvel U), but Spidey can just cocoon him up so that he can't move his arms to slice himself free. And if he didn't want to bother doing that, he could just shoot a web to Logan's feet, spin a few times for momentum, and chuck that Canuck's rear end a couple hundred miles away. End of fight.

Dude, do you really believe all this or are you just hoping other people will?

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/spideyass.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/wolvspideydrop2ik9.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/treeslam2nt9.jpg

[pariah-1972]

I thought I'd said my piece on this, and I didn't want the thread to go off-topic, but since others have chimed in I guess I'll add to their observations.

It's obvious that you're a Wolverine fan, but I'm guessing don't know much about Spidey. As someone who has read both X-Men and Spider-Man for a long time, allow me to point out that Spider-Man counts among his regular villains a number of bad guys who are just as tough, if not tougher, than Logan. Venom, Carnage, the Rhino...any of those names ring a bell? And Spidey has gone toe-to-toe with all of them on many occasions.

Forget being hit in the face with a sledgehammer. Spider-Man started out in the 10-ton class, but after his recent power upgrade that's been increased to 20-25 tons. That FAR outclasses Logan. I might have to look it up again, but I believe his reaction time is something like 15x that of a normal human. Couple those stats with a spider-sense that warns him of danger, the agility to practically dance circles around Logan in a fight, and the quips to make Logan lose his cool and fight without using his head...this is one very, very uneven contest.

Yes, Logan can cut through the webbing (though he wouldn't be able to in real life, but that's an argument for another day. Logan's claws and his ability to cut through anything is one of the biggest physics mistakes in the Marvel U), but Spidey can just cocoon him up so that he can't move his arms to slice himself free. And if he didn't want to bother doing that, he could just shoot a web to Logan's feet, spin a few times for momentum, and chuck that Canuck's rear end a couple hundred miles away. End of fight.I'm not some noob who's never read a Spider-man comic and even if he is stronger than logan i think Wolverines healing factor would cover up most of the damage that spidey could inflict.
since punches mean nothing to a man who can shirk off bullets and stabbings.
Spider-man usually beats his enemies by out-smarting them anyways.
i don't know if Spidey could pick up Logan even with his new power upgrade .. how much does Logan weight anyways?

[Sean Whitmore]

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/wolvspideydrop2ik9.jpg


Good gravy, that's ugly.


SEAN

[The Horhey]

i don't know if Spidey could pick up Logan even with his new power upgrade .. how much does Logan weight anyways?

He only weighs 800 lbs man.

[Brand]

Dude, do you really believe all this or are you just hoping other people will?

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/spideyass.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/wolvspideydrop2ik9.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/Horhey420/treeslam2nt9.jpg

I noticed you conveniently left out all the times Logan was left hanging, or got his head pounded in. For instance, right after that one image from MK: Spider-Man, poor Wolvey went turtle because Peter started pounding his head in. Even that scene was very poor writing if taken in its entirety, which if you'll actually look at the characters you'll see that many of the confrontations between these two have been outright ridiculous.

Yes, if Spidey lets Logan get close and just stands there, as you can see in some of those pics, then absolutely the Wolverine has a good chance at winning. But as I said before, these characters are notorious for being exact opposites of one another. Wolverine's abilities are outrageously exaggerated, and Spidey's are downplayed against most (emphasis on most) of his foes so that it's a good fight.

And like I said, Spidey doesn't even have to punch Logan out. He can toss his butt out of the fight if he has to.

[Dazzler]

Well, if he abandons his team while he's leader as much as he does when he's not, then he really would only be leader in name only.

He ditches them any chance he gets. That's not very dependable.

--Dazz

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

@Brand: You're being way too nice. ;)

Spidey's stronger, faster, more agile, has the spider sense and a freakin ranged attack. Wolvie has no business winning. Ever.

And I like Wolvie better than Spidey.

[Red Lotus]

There was some issue where Spider-man webs Wolverine all up and had his hands pointed at his throat so he couldn't pop the claws. All Wolverine could say was I hate when he does that.

[Brand]

Well, if he abandons his team while he's leader as much as he does when he's not, then he really would only be leader in name only.

He ditches them any chance he gets. That's not very dependable.

--Dazz

If Logan were FORCED into a leadership role, I think he'd stick around. That's one of the reasons he doesn't want it. He values his independence too much. Whether it would last long-term or not, there's no telling. It's my guess he'd be looking for a decent replacement as soon as possible.

[Dazzler]

If Logan were FORCED into a leadership role, I think he'd stick around. That's one of the reasons he doesn't want it. He values his independence too much. Whether it would last long-term or not, there's no telling. It's my guess he'd be looking for a decent replacement as soon as possible.

True. I could see that about him.
But i think there's a very big gulf between independence and just plain selfishness. And I very seriously doubt, unless done solely for the sales, that wolverine would have the moxy to be a leader long term.

--Dazz

[sephirothskiller]

@Brand: You're being way too nice. ;)

Spidey's stronger, faster, more agile, has the spider sense and a freakin ranged attack. Wolvie has no business winning. Ever.

And I like Wolvie better than Spidey.

Are you kidding me? If Captain America can get up close to Spidey and beat him then so can Logan. Logan's a far better fighter than Spidey, and while Spidey would score more hits and do better for the majority of the round, Logan's durability would allow him to last until he got in one hit.

And one hit is all he needs fellas.


However, whether you like it or not, its canon that they've both beaten each other, and this this argument is pretty pointless. Spiderman = More powerful. Wolverine = More durable, greater skill.

[Bulky Brent]

Well, if he abandons his team while he's leader as much as he does when he's not, then he really would only be leader in name only.

He ditches them any chance he gets. That's not very dependable.

--Dazz
When Has Wolverine ever ditched his teamates though?

[pariah-1972]

There was some issue where Spider-man webs Wolverine all up and had his hands pointed at his throat so he couldn't pop the claws. All Wolverine could say was I hate when he does that.Sort of like what Magneto did to him in the first movie? hmmm how did he get out of that??

[Brand]

When Has Wolverine ever ditched his teamates though?

When they really needed him? Never, at least not that I'm aware of. Though I'm not as up-to-date on X-Men canon as many. That's why I say that he'd take a leadership role temporarily if it was forced on him, but not if there were others around, like Cyke, Storm, or even Emma. Giving advice is one thing, but he knows that he's not one to keep a clear head when things go bad.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Are you kidding me? If Captain America can get up close to Spidey and beat him then so can Logan.

Cause Cap obviously is *THE* reference for a brawler's prowess never being overplayed.

[sephirothskiller]

Cause Cap obviously is *THE* reference for a brawler's prowess never being overplayed.

Logan is only a brawler when he's written as one. Its well established that he is one of if not THE best fighter on the planet right now.

[Brand]

Are you kidding me? If Captain America can get up close to Spidey and beat him then so can Logan. Logan's a far better fighter than Spidey, and while Spidey would score more hits and do better for the majority of the round, Logan's durability would allow him to last until he got in one hit.

And one hit is all he needs fellas.


However, whether you like it or not, its canon that they've both beaten each other, and this this argument is pretty pointless. Spiderman = More powerful. Wolverine = More durable, greater skill.

As for getting close to him, all Spidey has to do is jump. Suddenly there's the equivalent to roughly a dozen or more stories between the two, whether it be vertical or horizontal.

And I agree it's canon they've both beat each other (*points to previous posts about bad writing). There has been terrible writing on both sides. Wolverine shouldn't be able to touch Spidey with no apparent difficulty, and Spider-Man shouldn't be able to pimp-slap Logan, Colossus, Rogue, Storm, and Nightcrawler with no effort. But as you say, it's canon.

[We R. Venom]

"Beeeehaaaavveeee Yourselves!!!"

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Logan is only a brawler when he's written as one. Its well established that he is one of if not THE best fighter on the planet right now.

Look up the definition of brawler. It doesn't *have* to imply a lack of skill.

I meant brawler as in a 'tank'. Logan fits the bill.

[Brand]

"Beeeehaaaavveeee Yourselves!!!"

LOL But that wouldn't be as much fun, now would it?

And, just to keep things even, here are a few scans I found with a quick search. Some of these have been mentioned before.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/SpunkySmurph/Marvel/Scans/WebbingOwned.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/ASM-V1-522-002.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/brand8246/spideyvxmen27xk.jpg?t=1186619221

And if Spidey wants to end the fight quickly, he can always call on his secret weapon...Aunt May. :evilsmile

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/ASM_520_06.jpg

There's plenty more out there, like their NA training session, but I don't feel like doing any more searching tonight. And I think we've run this thread off its rails enough for one day.

[Slant]

Haha, I love it when Logan pisses off someone enough for them to throw/blast him out the nearest window.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

wouldnt spiderman break his hand punching wolverine?

[Brand]

Haha, I love it when Logan pisses off someone enough for them to throw/blast him out the nearest window.

Yep, there's another thing Scott Summers and Peter Parker have in common besides having/had a hot, redheaded wife that Logan has tried to steal. :p

[The Lucky One]

Logan is only a brawler when he's written as one. Its well established that he is one of if not THE best fighter on the planet right now.

When he keeps his cool, yeah. But the thing most Wolverine fans (and I am one, at least when he's written well) conveniently forget is that that almost never happens.

Actually, allow me to rephrase that: Logan keeps his cool very well in practice fights. When training students, when demonstrating fighting techniques, he's the man. But every. time. he gets in an actual fight, he gets pissed off and starts slashing. And then he gets easily beaten. (Hell, Cyclops has manhandled him in fights before... without using his optic blasts.) That's why, despite being a "great fighter," Logan's win/loss record is so freakin' terrible. He's a good training fighter and a terrible combat fighter.

-D

[Diablito]

Despite his vast amount of experience, I doubt that Wolverine would be a good leader. His insensetivity to most, and the probability of him goin berzerker can cause too much casualties for his team.

[sephirothskiller]

On the actual topic, I think that Wolvie would be an excellent team leader as far as "followability" goes, just because he has no fear. Unfortunately the dude tends to go for things that are rediculously dangerous, and I'm pretty damn sure that his underlings would be killed off quite quickly. (Unless it was an entire team of high durability people! Iceman, Sasquatch, Puck, Cannonball, Deadpool, Collassus and Wolverine!)

[pariah-1972]

LOL But that wouldn't be as much fun, now would it?

And, just to keep things even, here are a few scans I found with a quick search. Some of these have been mentioned before.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/SpunkySmurph/Marvel/Scans/WebbingOwned.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/ASM-V1-522-002.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/brand8246/spideyvxmen27xk.jpg?t=1186619221

And if Spidey wants to end the fight quickly, he can always call on his secret weapon...Aunt May. :evilsmile

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/ASM_520_06.jpg

There's plenty more out there, like their NA training session, but I don't feel like doing any more searching tonight. And I think we've run this thread off its rails enough for one day.Ok that looks really good what issues are that?

[pariah-1972]

On the actual topic, I think that Wolvie would be an excellent team leader as far as "followability" goes, just because he has no fear. Unfortunately the dude tends to go for things that are rediculously dangerous, and I'm pretty damn sure that his underlings would be killed off quite quickly. (Unless it was an entire team of high durability people! Iceman, Sasquatch, Puck, Cannonball, Deadpool, Collassus and Wolverine!)Puck is durable? last time i looked he was a midget with acrobatic skills.....

[david r]

Wolverine WAS leader for a short time. I'm sure this has come up in this thread. During 1987, I believe. Wolvie was leader of the team during FALL OF THE MUTANTS. But that was written by Claremont and before Grant Morrison, so we must all despise those stories. :p

Wolverine is like Sgt. Rock. He is a good tactical strategist, and knows how to win a battle. But he can't take the two steps back and see that battle in context of the entire war. Logan just doesn't think that way. He's too focused on the moment.

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

LOL But that wouldn't be as much fun, now would it?

And, just to keep things even, here are a few scans I found with a quick search. Some of these have been mentioned before.

[IMG]http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/SpunkySmurph/Marvel/Scans/WebbingOwned.jpg

[IMG]http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/ASM-V1-522-002.jpg[/IMG

[IMG]http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/brand8246/spideyvxmen27xk.jpg?t=1186619221[/IMG

And if Spidey wants to end the fight quickly, he can always call on his secret weapon...Aunt May. :evilsmile

[IMG]http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/ASM_520_06.jpg[/IMG

There's plenty more out there, like their NA training session, but I don't feel like doing any more searching tonight. And I think we've run this thread off its rails enough for one day.

What comic books are those from?

[Brand]

Ok that looks really good what issues are that?

I'm not sure what issue the top scan is from, but the second and fourth are from Amazing Spider-Man, issues 522 and 520. That was the period when the New Avengers hadn't been together long and were still playing at family, all living in Tony Stark's Tower. The artist for those issues was Mike Deodato, Jr., one of my favorite Spidey artists.

As for the X-Men/Spidey scan, that's from Secret Wars #3. Here's how spiderfan.org describes the fight between Spider-Man and the X-Men:

"Wait! I sense an eavesdropper! Spider-Man!" the Prof yells. Spidey leaps into action, almost instantly knocking out Professor X and Cyclops. He dodges Wolverine, and blinds Colossus with his webs. Flipping around the room, he webs up Rogue and evades Storm's lightning bolts. Nightcrawler says he can catch Spidey, since he's just as agile. Spider-Man disagrees, and he says so by webbing Nightcrawler to a wall, then twisting to smack Wolverine out of the air.

Spider-Man rushes off to tell someone, and Wolverine admits he's glad thats all he wanted to do, since Spider-Man really clobbered them.

[pariah-1972]

I'm not sure what issue the top scan is from, but the second and fourth are from Amazing Spider-Man, issues 522 and 520. That was the period when the New Avengers hadn't been together long and were still playing at family, all living in Tony Stark's Tower. The artist for those issues was Mike Deodato, Jr., one of my favorite Spidey artists.

As for the X-Men/Spidey scan, that's from Secret Wars #3. Here's how spiderfan.org describes the fight between Spider-Man and the X-Men:Ok im sorry but that secret wars fight is just the funniest thing ever.

[We R. Venom]

Ok im sorry but that secret wars fight is just the funniest thing ever.

lol ain't it .He literally swatted Wolverine like a fly. You can't get that classic writing anymore. Everything was so literal back in the day. Art as well.

[Brand]

Ok im sorry but that secret wars fight is just the funniest thing ever.

LOL Yeah, I know. That's why I said a lot of the writing has been terrible on both sides. Usually the writers downplay Spidey's abilities, but that's one of the instances where the X-Men, including Wolvie, were made to look completely useless. But, hey, it's canon. :rolleyes:

[Brian Cronin]

Iceman rocks all.

-Brian