Favourite X-Retcon?

[Crimson]

Yeah, Retcons are normally looked down upon by comic fans as bad storytelling and what not... but what are some of your favourite retcons? Either because they produced a cool moment or because they negated a very bad storyline before?

I was a fan of the "Wolverine's claws have always been his and not just special gloves" retcon. I loved the scene where he and the X-Men were strapped up... and he just pops his claws to the shock of everyone in the room.

[Mitteloss]

Polaris is Magneto's daughter.

[Brian M.]

Jean Grey coming back, b/c it led the way for some awesome X-Factor/O5 stories.

[GoingGreen]

Polaris getting her powers back.

Though... she should still be a mutant instead of the tech shpeal.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Cable being Nate Summers, therefore Rachel's baby bro.

[jade_nova]

Wolverine's claws being made of bone. Polaris as Magneto's daughter. Magneto being a Holocaust survivor.

[KidNewWave]

Xorn As Magneto

[Bulky Brent]

Xorn As Magneto
Dang I was going to say that Oh well how about Icarus betraying the New X-Men

[GoingGreen]

Storm being a harlot. Oh wait... that wasn't a retcon...

[Christopher O]

Storm being a harlot. Oh wait... that wasn't a retcon...
What was the point?

My favorite RetCon was more of a reRetCon, and that's when Grant Morrison ignored Kurt Busiek's horrible Jean was not Phoenix RetCon.

[witchboy]

The Phoenix egg , so that Jean was always the Phoenix , getting rid of the lame Phoenix as a copy retcon.

[brundlefly]

"Joseph" is just Magneto's clone, not the real deal. And then he dies. :D

Runner-up: Sinister as a 19th-century scientist/contemporary of Charles Darwin instead of the astral projection of an evil mutant child.

Runner-runner-up: Xorn was a wacky psychotic Chinese mutant on drugs (or something), not Magneto.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

What was the point?

My favorite RetCon was more of a reRetCon, and that's when Grant Morrison ignored Kurt Busiek's horrible Jean was not Phoenix RetCon.

I actually blame Chris Claremont for that, he basically outright said it in revolution


thats right, i said BLAME

Wanna fight about it?

:cool:

My favorite retcon was probably either the Planet X wasnt Magneto one, or X-23 during Uncanny was bullshit.

Planet X one i liked because i hated Planet X

But the X-23 one i liked because it was a quick and effective retcon with no fuss no muss. More retcons need to be like that. Just have wolverine call people up

Peter Parker: 'uh....hello?"
Wolverine: "Hey bub"
Peter Parker: "Jesus........it's........Christ...it's 3:42 in the morning....someone better be dead"
Wolverine: "Gwen is"
Peter Parker: "Thats not funny"
Wolverine: " Anyway just wanted to tell you that she didnt have kids with Norman Osborne. I ran into her in Europe and could smell she was on the rag"
Peter Parker: " Thats both comforting, and nauseating"
Wolverine: "Well i am the best there is, at what i do"
Peter Parker: Wait....then why did MJ....
Wolverine: That was a dream you were having induced by Mysterio. I beat him up, its all good.
Peter Parker: Hey MJ, wake up.
MJ: ......No you cant take a crap on me....
Wolverine: WTF?
Peter Parker: uhh....huh....uhhhh...Never mind that, did Gwen sleep with Norman Osborne?
MJ:......what? No......have you been taking stuff from my stash again?
Wolverine: Oh, wait...why was i calling? Ah, right.... some criminals broke out of some jail, i wasnt really paying attention. Avegers have to get with the assembling.

[jmc247]

"Joseph" is just Magneto's clone, not the real deal. And then he dies.


I would agree with that, number two would be Magneto didn't try to herd humans into ovens in NY City.

Number three is that Polaris is Magneto's daughter again.

[Tazirai]

The Phoenix egg , so that Jean was always the Phoenix , getting rid of the lame Phoenix as a copy retcon.

This one aaaaaannnddd..

"Joseph" is just Magneto's clone, not the real deal. And then he dies. :D

Runner-up: Sinister as a 19th-century scientist/contemporary of Charles Darwin instead of the astral projection of an evil mutant child.

Runner-runner-up: Xorn was a wacky psychotic Chinese mutant on drugs (or something), not Magneto.

these.

[Blaqueneto]

Xorn wasn't Magneto.

[Henry T.]

My favorite re-retcon or de-retcon is also them reinstating Jean Grey as the original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix.

It was a long time coming.

[pariah-1972]

Ok i'm going to sound stupid but can you technically retcon something that hasn't been completely established in the comics? maybe it's my faulty memory but i don't remember anyone thinking Wolverines claws came from his gloves or that Mister Sinister was only a child pretending to be an adult?.

if anyone could so politely point to me the issues where these things were firmly established i would appreciate it.

[Daithi]

My favorite re-retcon or de-retcon is also them reinstating Jean Grey as the original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix.

It was a long time coming.

That was de-retconned? Somebody didn't tell Brubaker then as Jean wasn't the first Phoenix according to the Shi'ar arc.

Anyway, I did like the Gambit being the Marauder leader. I can see why people don't though.

[HellFrost]

My favorite re-retcon or de-retcon is also them reinstating Jean Grey as the original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix.

It was a long time coming.

I agree with this. I hated that whole cloning thing. Her character is much more interesting if that never happened. Marvel said they needed some way for her to come back but... her codename was the Phoenix wasn't it? 'nuff said.

I also believe the Phoenix being it's own entity that manifested itself in her is more interesting than her actually being the Phoenix. Mostly because one day I hope to see my wonderful red head back among us without that holy parrot attached to her.:cool:

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Magneto becoming a neutered puppy over the years.

Oh wait, that's *character development* rather than a retcon. My bad.

[HellFrost]

Ok i'm going to sound stupid but can you technically retcon something that hasn't been completely established in the comics? maybe it's my faulty memory but i don't remember anyone thinking Wolverines claws came from his gloves or that Mister Sinister was only a child pretending to be an adult?.

if anyone could so politely point to me the issues where these things were firmly established i would appreciate it.

I don't know if this is that much help but I created a thread on this actual topic that states some issue numbers if you'd like.

Pick Your Retcon: Wolverines Claws (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=147528&highlight=pick+retcon)

[brundlefly]

Ok i'm going to sound stupid but can you technically retcon something that hasn't been completely established in the comics? maybe it's my faulty memory but i don't remember anyone thinking Wolverines claws came from his gloves or that Mister Sinister was only a child pretending to be an adult?.

if anyone could so politely point to me the issues where these things were firmly established i would appreciate it.

The Sinister "evil child" origin never really saw print; just some foreshadowing in a Classic X-Men backup, I think. Then Peter Milligan fleshed out the "Victorian-era scientist" origin in the Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix mini and that was that. So no, maybe it's not technically really a retcon. I like that amoral scientist concept better, since it gives the character legs and more concrete motive to interact with the rest of the X-Universe compared to an evil child who hates Cyclops. With the latter, once you get past the "shocking twist" of Sinister just being a child's astral projection, his story's pretty much done at that point and then you're left with just an evil kid with a grudge against Scott, imo. Plus with all the evolution themes of the X-Universe, they were long overdue for a character who was a Darwin devotee.


Magneto becoming a three-dimensional character over the years.


Fixed that one for ya....

[Babylon23]

Definitely Magneto as a Holocaust survivor. It added depth to the character and gave us an insight into his beliefs and the reasons for his actions. It elevated Magneto beyond the standrad 2-dimensional evil villain.

[ClanAskani]

Cable being Nate Summers, therefore Rachel's baby bro.

That's my favorite retcon too.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

That was de-retconned? Somebody didn't tell Brubaker then as Jean wasn't the first Phoenix according to the Shi'ar arc.

Anyway, I did like the Gambit being the Marauder leader. I can see why people don't though.

Jean isnt the first phoenix. There are many phoenixii

or some such crap.


Yeah that whole storyline is a freddy krueger nightmare before christmas

[rwsmith]

Cable being Nate Summers, therefore Rachel's baby bro.

Ugh. This one absolutely ruined Cable for me in the 90's.

Wolverine's claws being made of bone.

Not a big fan of this one either. I liked it better when his claws were cybernetic implants.

[Sean Whitmore]

Wolverine's claws being made of bone. Polaris as Magneto's daughter. Magneto being a Holocaust survivor.

Can't believe it took six freaking posts before that was mentioned.

This is the only answer. Everything else is varying degrees of mediocre crap that either actively hurt the mythos, or amounted to a big ol' "who really cares?"


SEAN

[Stagier]

psylocke/kwannon?

luke seducing laura, wait.....

[Crimson]

Can't believe it took six freaking posts before that was mentioned.

This is the only answer. Everything else is varying degrees of mediocre crap that either actively hurt the mythos, or amounted to a big ol' "who really cares?"


SEAN

I completely forgot that one, especially as I’ve just said it was my favourite back-story. Eep!

I feel so ashamed.

[Chase]

No love for good ol' Piotr? :( ?

[brundlefly]

Can't believe it took six freaking posts before that was mentioned.

This is the only answer.

Truth. Overall, it's the best (and my personal favorite) of all the X-retcons, but it had already been mentioned before I posted and I didn't want to bandwagon jump on it. So I went with the retcons that nullified prior crappy characterizations of Magneto (Joseph, Xorneto) and threw in the Sinister retcon just 'cause I think that one's pretty cool.


No love for good ol' Piotr?

I dig Quicksilver; what retcons involving him are referring to? The one that made him Mags' son instead of Robert Frank's?

[GoingGreen]

Piotr, as in Rasputin, is what he meant. Right? As in Collossus.

[Schuimend Mormel]

I dig Quicksilver; what retcons involving him are referring to? The one that made him Mags' son instead of Robert Frank's?

That's 'Pietro', 'Piotr' is Colossus. 'Peter' is the most frequently used name in the Marvel Universe, I believe.

[Slung]

That was de-retconned? Somebody didn't tell Brubaker then as Jean wasn't the first Phoenix according to the Shi'ar arc.

Anyway, I did like the Gambit being the Marauder leader. I can see why people don't though.

Nobody said Jean was the first Phoenix (well, other than Claremont - I meant in this thread). The retconned retcon being referred to, is that Jean was the Phoenix in issues 101-137 - not some clone copy. Morrison used the Phoenix egg (and the "if I get to close to the Phoenix, it replaces me" line) found in the spot Dark Phoenix died on the blue area of the moon to debunk the coccoon retcon and establish Jean as the Phoenix character in Claremont's early Uncanny run.

[Affinity]

Nobody said Jean was the first Phoenix (well, other than Claremont - I meant in this thread). The retconned retcon being referred to, is that Jean was the Phoenix in issues 101-137 - not some clone copy. Morrison used the Phoenix egg (and the "if I get to close to the Phoenix, it replaces me" line) found in the spot Dark Phoenix died on the blue area of the moon to debunk the coccoon retcon and establish Jean as the Phoenix character in Claremont's early Uncanny run.

Ohhhhhhhh. That's what happened?
Ohh. LOL THIS IS NEWS TO ME.

[Bart Simpson]

Ohhhhhhhh. That's what happened?
Ohh. LOL THIS IS NEWS TO ME.
That's what i got from it.
Jean's cycle in 3 easy steps:

1) When Jean "died" on the shuttle, she put a spare body in Jamaica bay in case things go wrong, and her essence went to the new body.

2) When she killed herself on the moon, that essence went back to the bay just as another phoenix egg was left on the moon.

3) Cue to X-Men #150, where Jean's pieces end up in the body on the moon to be found and awaken by Sumblime 150 years later.

Endsong tied it all together by showing that sometimes pieces of her don't always come back to the right spot. Most of the time they are attracted to those that share her morphology/genes like Maddie. Other times they encounter others like say the spare fragment that the Cuckoos encountered.

[Slung]

That's what i got from it.
Jean's cycle in 3 easy steps:

1) When Jean "died" on the shuttle, she put a spare body in Jamaica bay in case things go wrong, and her essence went to the new body.

2) When she killed herself on the moon, that essence went back to the bay just as another phoenix egg was left on the moon.

3) Cue to X-Men #150, where Jean's pieces end up in the body on the moon to be found and awaken by Sumblime 150 years later.

Endsong tied it all together by showing that sometimes pieces of her don't always come back to the right spot. Most of the time they are attracted to those that share her morphology/genes like Maddie. Other times they encounter others like say the spare fragment that the Cuckoos encountered.

Exactly. Reading comprehension is an important tool. :)

[DDM]

The Sinister "evil child" origin never really saw print; just some foreshadowing in a Classic X-Men backup, I think. Then Peter Milligan fleshed out the "Victorian-era scientist" origin in the Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix mini and that was that. So no, maybe it's not technically really a retcon. I like that amoral scientist concept better, since it gives the character legs and more concrete motive to interact with the rest of the X-Universe compared to an evil child who hates Cyclops. With the latter, once you get past the "shocking twist" of Sinister just being a child's astral projection, his story's pretty much done at that point and then you're left with just an evil kid with a grudge against Scott, imo. Plus with all the evolution themes of the X-Universe, they were long overdue for a character who was a Darwin devotee.




I believe the evil child mutant makes for a great compelling story because he can never grow up. Furthermore, his psionic projections can eventually become a life of its own such as Gambit. The child can appear as any mutant with any power at any given time, although he has appeared already as Mister Sinister & Gambit. The story is just a well of endless possibilities since the X-Men will never know the truth & how to detect the mutant boy who can never really grow up.

It's also twisted how he can only relate to clones such as the cloned Marauders, Madelyne Pryor, & not real, genuine people.

[brundlefly]

That's 'Pietro', 'Piotr' is Colossus. 'Peter' is the most frequently used name in the Marvel Universe, I believe.


Piotr, as in Rasputin, is what he meant. Right? As in Collossus.

Yes, pile it on, I deserve it; I am an idiot. :o I don't know how/why I juxtaposed Pietro and Piotr. Probably because I was talking about Magneto in the initial part of that post. Color me embarassed...

So what Piotr retcons are you referring to then, Chase? I can't think of too many major ones related to him offhand, besides "he's related to Grigori Rasputin" from Bloodlines or "brother Mikhail, previously thought dead, is still alive" if either of those count for anything. His resurrection's not technically a retcon since he did actually die; he just got revived by Ord's alien tech afterwards.

[Anodyne]

It's also twisted how he can only relate to clones such as the cloned Marauders, Madelyne Pryor, & not real, genuine people.
Clones ARE real, genuine people. What's twisted is treating them as if they weren't. :mad:

[Sean Whitmore]

So what Piotr retcons are you referring to then, Chase? I can't think of too many major ones related to him offhand, besides "he's related to Grigori Rasputin" from Bloodlines or "brother Mikhail, previously thought dead, is still alive" if either of those count for anything. His resurrection's not technically a retcon since he did actually die; he just got revived by Ord's alien tech afterwards.

Ah, that was probably it. I couldn't figure out what Colossus retcon there was either. But like you said, bringing him back isn't really one.


SEAN

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

i never get why jean fans are so happy to have the 6 billion body count back on jean's tab

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

hell, i never get why anyone is happy with the Phoenix Force in the first place.

But I'd say it's probably a 'victim of fate' motif. Or something.

[Daithi]

i never get why jean fans are so happy to have the 6 billion body count back on jean's tab

Well according to Morrison, Jean was meant to kill the D'Bari because they were not a viable species. Phoenix Work apparently.

[Bart Simpson]

i never get why jean fans are so happy to have the 6 billion body count back on jean's tab

I never understood how some people are so one sided. All the X-Men have killed at some pt or another.
She was clinically insane. One of the people responsible for it is headmistress of the X-Men, and used to kill people for fun or on a bet. Wolverine killed an entire town once and countless others. Xavier probably killed at least millions as well when he destroyed a planet in the microverse. I don't see you complaining about them on the X-Men.

And it's pretty easy to spew negatives and forget all the positives. Jean saved the entire universe by mending the M'Kranhh crystal. And then once again allowed the universe to flourish when she cut away a diseased timeline. In the greater scheme of things she's done more good as Phoenix than not.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Magneto becoming a three-dimensional character over the years.
Fixed that one for ya....

What can I say, I'm kinda torn between 'unabashed two dimensional sociopath' VS 'victim of fate who's had his testicles removed'.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Unless I'm mistaken, Brian was just saying it's not a badge of honor. As opposed to an unabashed accusation. :confused:

[Slung]

Unless I'm mistaken, Brian was just saying it's not a badge of honor. As opposed to an unabashed accusation. :confused:

No one says its a badge of honor. Its just a part of her history. To take Jean out of her most important story is a travesty to her character and to the X-Men in general. It would be like saying the Cyclops we've been reading since his return from Apocalypse has really been a Skrull pretending to be Cyclops. Or Emma Frost has been a Phalanx spy since the Phalanx Covenant.

Jean killed the D'bari. Its horrible. But instead of dealing with it in an interesting way - she is cloned out of the story. Bad writing.

She has some responsibility for it. But we must remember that:

1) Mastermind and Emma Frost fractured her psyche on purpose to create the evil and immoral Black Queen personality. They also inadvertantly created the Dark Phoenix personality. They are as much responsible for whatever happened.

2) According to Here Comes Tomorrow storyline, the D'bari were a species that was meant to be wiped-out (I still feel this was a strange plot twist by Morrison - and it sits a bit "icky").

3) According to Death, Jean's heroics outweight her destruction. And she also did work in the afterlife with Death as penance for her deeds as Dark Phoenix.

[Faded]

Deadly Genesis wasn't my favorite story, but I thought it was a really enjoyable retcon.

I loved the Kwannon retcon, as well but that can of worms can stay inside the mfing can.

[Daithi]

2) According to Here Comes Tomorrow storyline, the D'bari were a species that was meant to be wiped-out (I still feel this was a strange plot twist by Morrison - and it sits a bit "icky").

That's perfectly intune with Morrison's entire character arc for Jean. That she is beyond humanity. That she's above her relationship with Scott. That's she's not human. That Phoenix doesn't work as an X-Man and needs to be put somewhere else because she's beyond them.

Most of Jean's time in New X-Men is spent embracing her inner Phoenix. The second however that she becomes Phoenix she's pretty much written out.

You could also argue that Jean "amputating" a timeline means she's killed more than the D'Bari.

[Slung]

That's perfectly intune with Morrison's entire character arc for Jean. That she is beyond humanity. That she's above her relationship with Scott. That's she's not human. That Phoenix doesn't work as an X-Man and needs to be put somewhere else because she's beyond them.

Most of Jean's time in New X-Men is spent embracing her inner Phoenix. The second however that she becomes Phoenix she's pretty much written out.

You could also argue that Jean "amputating" a timeline means she's killed more than the D'Bari.

Oh, I agree that by the end of his run, Morrison had fallen in love with Emma Frost and was working on ways to write Jean out of the equation. There is still a part of me that is uncomfortable with the development that killing off a species is part of a greater good.

[Christopher O]

i never get why jean fans are so happy to have the 6 billion body count back on jean's tab
Because personal accountability is more interesting than a pristine record. It's the same reason Wanda shouldn't be given a free pass for House of M. Let's have these characters live with the consequences of their actions.

[Brian M.]

1) Jean Grey coming back for X-Factor

2) Vulcan and the 1.5 team.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Because personal accountability is more interesting than a pristine record. It's the same reason Wanda shouldn't be given a free pass for House of M. Let's have these characters live with the consequences of their actions.

i have no problem with all that

Its just if this is the case and she did murder 6 billion entities not only would it be implausible for her ever to return to the x-men and fight the MLF or whatever, but like in all instances when the x-men see her come back they'd have to murder her for the good of the universe

Its the notion that "yes, my character is uber powerful, but she can never realistically appear in the X-books anymore"

its the trade off that i find interesting

[Bart Simpson]

i have no problem with all that

Its just if this is the case and she did murder 6 billion entities not only would it be implausible for her ever to return to the x-men and fight the MLF or whatever, but like in all instances when the x-men see her come back they'd have to murder her for the good of the universe

Its the notion that "yes, my character is uber powerful, but she can never realistically appear in the X-books anymore"

its the trade off that i find interesting

It wasn't murder if she wasn't aware of it and she was insane.

If anything, for the good of the universe they should keep her around. Like I said since she's saved the ENTIRE universe at least twice now. Soley her, no one else could have done it. It's easy to throw around the negatives, but it seems even easier for some to forget the positives.

She doesn't need to be at Dark Phoenix levels when she comes back. She can set up psionic circuit breakers again. She only went insane when people aka the Hellfire Club effed with her mind and corrupted her. She handled her powers just fine before hand and then handled them fine again during Morrison's run, when she fully accepted her phoenix powers.

And then in Endsong, it was the stupid Shiar that had the bright idea of shattering her, driving her insane. Yet when she got most of her pieces together, she was able to keep control.

Why shouldn't Jean be able to return to the X-Men? Their current members right now have killed too. Emma Frost who is the headmistress used to torture and kill for sport. Wolverine killed an entire town + countless others. Xavier killed millions+ when he destroyed a planet in the microverse yet he's still an accepted member of the X-Men and their mentor no less. Why the double standard?

[Slung]

Why shouldn't Jean be able to return to the X-Men? Their current members right now have killed too. Emma Frost who is the headmistress used to torture and kill for sport. Wolverine killed an entire town + countless others. Xavier killed millions+ when he destroyed a planet in the microverse yet he's still an accepted member of the X-Men and their mentor no less. Why the double standard?

Because Jean is a honorable, non-hoochie woman. Only women with sordid morals and anyone with a penis can be offered that kind of acceptance.

Which is good for me - if I commited mass murder in a four colored medium, my penis would give me a get-out-of-jail free card!

[Bart Simpson]

Because Jean is a honorable, non-hoochie woman. Only women with sordid morals and anyone with a penis can be offered that kind of acceptance.

Which is good for me - if I commited mass murder in a four colored medium, my penis would give me a get-out-of-jail free card!

Then we have the people who complain because according to them Jean is too perfect, yet when she fumbles and makes mistakes and shows she's not perfect...they complain too.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

It wasn't murder if she wasn't aware of it and she was insane.


But it was murder. Jean said they would have to have been burned away anyway, or whatever. If thats the case then that wasnt the act of a crazy person but a deliberate act. If she ever decides that humans were not working anymore she could destroy the planet.


She doesn't need to be at Dark Phoenix levels when she comes back. She can set up psionic circuit breakers again. She only went insane when people aka the Hellfire Club effed with her mind and corrupted her. She handled her powers just fine before hand and then handled them fine during Morrison's run, when she fully accepted her phoenix powers.

Again thats casting the phoenix as a benevolent entity. Hell didnt Galactus check the phoenix in an issue of Excalibur?

THe phoenix exists to destroy, in effect. Burn away doesnt work is certainly genocide.

No way would phoenix put up psionic breakers again if she could handle it, and no way she wouldnt use all of her powers to fight to save her buddies.

And Jean didnt handle her powers just find during Morrisons run, when she attacked Emma that was not being just fine. Im not going to go into the justifications or lack of again, but someone that temperamental cant be allowed to have that much power when so much is at stake. The x-men seem well aware of this and will kill her or try to kill her if she comes back.

Why shouldn't Jean be able to return to the X-Men? Their current members right now have killed too. Emma Frost who is the headmistress used to torture and kill for sport. Wolverine killed an entire town + countless others. Xavier killed millions+ when he destroyed a planet in the microverse yet he's still an accepted member of the X-Men and their mentor no less. Why the double standard?

Im not aware of the Xavier stuff. As for Wolverine and Emma they have killed, they didnt commit genocide. Total genocide. Because Jean can destroy it all. there is no standard for that.

She's beyond the x-men

Both practically because a writer could never include her in his stories with full phoenix powers and have her not win every fight in five seconds (unless its against magneto who could beat her). Furthermore if the phoenix force is some cosmic entity to have her go to earth would defeat the purpose of such a force. If it does good, which im certainly not saying it does, to have Jean grey making pancakes for cyclops while big cosmic things are going on shows the character in a bad light.

[Daithi]

If anything, for the good of the universe they should keep her around. Like I said since she's saved the ENTIRE universe at least twice now. Soley her, no one else could have done it. It's easy to throw around the negatives, but it seems even easier for some to forget the positives.

Stop with the hyperbole. She didn't save the ENTIRE universe twice. It was one planet the second time and it's still gone to hell for mutants.

I bet before Jean messed around with amputating timelines, Captain America lived a long life too!

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Cracks me up how, say, dozens or hundreds of murder can even compare to billions.

The principle itself just isn't enough anymore when we're dealing with numbers that big.

[Bart Simpson]

But it was murder. Jean said they would have to have been burned away anyway, or whatever. If thats the case then that wasnt the act of a crazy person but a deliberate act. If she ever decides that humans were not working anymore she could destroy the planet.




Again thats casting the phoenix as a benevolent entity. Hell didnt Galactus check the phoenix in an issue of Excalibur?

THe phoenix exists to destroy, in effect. Burn away doesnt work is certainly genocide.

No way would phoenix put up psionic breakers again if she could handle it, and no way she wouldnt use all of her powers to fight to save her buddies.

And Jean didnt handle her powers just find during Morrisons run, when she attacked Emma that was not being just fine. Im not going to go into the justifications or lack of again, but someone that temperamental cant be allowed to have that much power when so much is at stake. The x-men seem well aware of this and will kill her or try to kill her if she comes back.



Im not aware of the Xavier stuff. As for Wolverine and Emma they have killed, they didnt commit genocide. Total genocide. Because Jean can destroy it all. there is no standard for that.

She's beyond the x-men

Both practically because a writer could never include her in his stories with full phoenix powers and have her not win every fight in five seconds (unless its against magneto who could beat her). Furthermore if the phoenix force is some cosmic entity to have her go to earth would defeat the purpose of such a force. If it does good, which im certainly not saying it does, to have Jean grey making pancakes for cyclops while big cosmic things are going on shows the character in a bad light.

Actually I don't think she was "aware" of the D'Bari until after the fact.

Jean is benevolent. She could have just left the timeline the way it was, but she decided to continue it, and allow it to change. As Phoenix, and in full fledged white phoenix form, she burns away what doesn't work therefore fixing things like the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline. Not races.
The burning away is not necessarily destructive like you percieve because from what she burns away grows something better than before, like a forest rejuvenated with new life after a fire, or in this case the better timeline she set it up after wiping away HCT.

She only becomes malevolent when people corrupt her or shatter her and drive her crazy. Or when Sublime woke her early and she was still confused about what she was supposed to burn, which we know was that future, not the Termids.

She handled her powers just fine before her corruption by the Hellfire Club, and all wielded her powers well during Morrison's run. When I mean just fine, I mean she didn't go crazy and threaten the universe, she IS allowed to get pissed off you know. Her attacking Emma is a human reaction, and the right and wrong of it is covered in other threads. Doesn't change the fact that SHE was in control.

You make it sound like she went around killing babies. The charm with Jean is her duality. Yes for all her power she can be destructive, but more often than not, she is playing on the side of good. It is her compassionate nature that offsets her tempermental side. If not she wouldn't have fused Emma back together or just let the universe die at the end of Morrison's run.

So now you're aware of the Xavier stuff. He's still a valid functioning member of the X-Men right now. It's working despite what you saying it wouldn't work.

She's beyond the X-Men as the White Phoenix, but not as Green Phoenix. It doesn't paint her in a bad light if she's still out there doing good with her powers. Besides the duality of the white hot room, means even though she's back on earth some future version of her is already doing phoenix work. That is why when Jean says live scott live, the current jean grey said the same thing to Cyclops. And how when she was shattered by the shiar, she experienced "killing the bug people" over and over again.

[Kalen O.]

Hey, remember that time when Iceman was all made of ice and a grumpy whiny bitch cuz of it? And then he wasnt anymore and we liked him again?

Totally counts.

[Bart Simpson]

Stop with the hyperbole. She didn't save the ENTIRE universe twice. It was one planet the second time and it's still gone to hell for mutants.

I bet before Jean messed around with amputating timelines, Captain America lived a long life too!


Get your facts straight. 1st if she didn't repair the M'Kranhh crystal, the entire universe would have been destroyed.

Second, if you actually READ Morrison's last arc, you'd know that she could have just let that entire timeline die. But she decided to amputate it instead and cut if off at a certain point, therefore creating a new one that was better. The one we are currently seeing.

[Daithi]

As Phoenix, and in full fledged white phoenix form, she burns away what doesn't work therefore fixing things like the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline. Not races.

How many races do you think she killed when she "burned" away a timeline?


Second, if you actually READ Morrison's last arc, you'd know that she could have just let that entire timeline die. But she decided to amputate it instead and cut if off at a certain point, therefore creating a new one that was better. The one we are currently seeing.

She saved Earth. Not a universe.

[Bart Simpson]

How many races do you think she killed when she "burned" away a timeline?

When she burned away that timeline, Scott is still alive, Emma is still alive. So it's more like replacing.

[Bart Simpson]

How many races do you think she killed when she "burned" away a timeline?



She saved Earth. Not a universe.

The timeline includes everything in the universe, dear.

[Daithi]

The timeline includes everything in the universe, dear.

Yes but the universe wasn't in danger. One planet was. Thus she didn't save the entire universe. She saved a planet. And killed anyone in the universe born in the 150 years between New X-Men and HCT.

[Bart Simpson]

Yes but the universe wasn't in danger. One planet was. Thus she didn't save the entire universe. She saved a planet. And killed anyone in the universe born in the 150 years between New X-Men and HCT.

As a malevolent, sentient bacteria that spread like a disease, yes everyone was in danger. Grant Morrison even stated it was a "threat to ALL intelligent life."
No because they still would have continued to be born in the new timeline. She didn't kill them all, just put things on a different path.

[Daithi]

As a malevolent, sentient bacteria that spread like a disease, yes everyone was in danger. Grant Morrison even stated it was a "threat to ALL intelligent life."


She destroyed Sublime on Earth. He couldn't infect anyone else.


No because they still would have continued to be born in the new timeline. She didn't kill them all, just put things on a different path.

She amputated that timeline so it couldn't happen. She killed people and denied them their existence thanks to her sledgehammer approach to fixing things. It's akin to Xavier and the micronaughts only on a much larger scale. Given the multiple deaths that have happened on Earth alone, you think the rest of the universe would be okay?

[Superbeast]

Onsalught's creation.

Psylocke actually is Betsy Braddock, just in another body.

Cable is a Summers.

Sinister has centuries of history.

Apocalypse goes all the way back to ancient Egypt.

I disliked Vulcan, Cassandra Nova and Xorn not being Magneto.

[Bart Simpson]

She destroyed Sublime on Earth. He couldn't infect anyone else.



She amputated that timeline so it couldn't happen. She killed people and denied them their existence thanks to her sledgehammer approach to fixing things. It's akin to Xavier and the micronaughts only on a much larger scale. Given the multiple deaths that have happened on Earth alone, you think the rest of the universe would be okay?
The universe was dying. Read the words c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y.

Jean: "Did I have to fix something that was dying? What is it?"

"A badly wounded orphan UNIVERSE. Phoenix work."

Notice it doesn't say only earth is dying. The universe itself was wounded and needed to be amputated. Or she could have let it (ie the universe die) but she decided to grow a new one.

[Daithi]

Sinister has centuries of history.


This. I always liked that Sinister was a professor teaching Moira and that he was a Nazi doctor.

THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE WAS DYING. READ THE TEXT.
Jean: Did I have to fix something that was dying? What is it?
"A badly wounded orphan UNIVERSE. Phoenix work."


Yet there was no proof that Sublime had infected the universe. Given that Jean had killed him, that was also going to be unlikely. It's not the text. It's Jean's word. Even then destroying and safeguarding universes is Roma's job. Not Phoenix work.

[Bart Simpson]

This. I always liked that Sinister was a professor teaching Moira and that he was a Nazi doctor.



Yet there was no proof that Sublime had infected the universe. Given that Jean had killed him, that was also going to be unlikely. It's not the text. It's Jean's word.


Yet it was stated right there that the universe was dying and was wounded and needed to be fixed. Jean asked what needed to be fixed because it was DYING, and the omnisciene voice said "a badly wounded orphan universe." NOT earth is dying, fix only that. And we don't know what else could have been wrong with the universe by that time that she fixed, only that it was dying.

It's Phoenix work because the omnipresent voice says it's phoenix work. Who are you to say what is and what isn't when the books straight up tell you it's phoenix work.
Roma is irrelevent. There can be two cooks in the same kitchen you know.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

id do some responding but this is offtopic

so im gonna go back on topic


another favorite X-retcon of mine was Storm not being dead, but rather kidnapped by the nanny and the orphan maker



Nanny is fun times

[Bart Simpson]

id do some responding but this is offtopic

so im gonna go back on topic


another favorite X-retcon of mine was Storm not being dead, but rather kidnapped by the nanny and the orphan maker



Nanny is fun times

I quite like the nanny too. I still love that cover with Storm on it and Havok and Colosuss saying "why did you kill Storm?"

when was the last time Nanny appeared anyways?

[Daithi]

id do some responding but this is offtopic
so im gonna go back on topic


Me too. There's a Phoenix thread around here though.

I liked that Maddie was a clone. I never bought Claremont's "oh she just looked like Jean".

[Bart Simpson]

Me too. There's a Phoenix thread around here though.

I liked that Maddie was a clone. I never bought Claremont's "oh she just looked like Jean".

I hate clones. Maddie should have just turned out to be a reborn Jean. There were so many things pointing that way like the way her fiery crash after Jean's sacrifice on the moon.

[rilokyle]

I am a big fan of the "Madelyne is really a clone of Jean Grey" retcon. To me, that made perfect sense, and made me love the character even more.

[Monty_Cristo]

I quite like the nanny too. I still love that cover with Storm on it and Havok and Colosuss saying "why did you kill Storm?"

when was the last time Nanny appeared anyways?

beats me. it's easier to keep track of the Orphan Maker. he appeared in that Slingers series and i think that happened after Generation X; making it his last.

http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=75665858384%209

[Gene M.]

I've gotta go with Wolverine's bone claws for no other reason than it shocked the hell out of me when I was twelve.

[witchboy]

I have a friend who back in the day thought Jean would go thru the Seige Perilous gate and become Maddie . I love that theory , it would've really complicated Jean 's relationship with Scott ( After all he left her for a slighter younger version of herself ) ,and she'd be Nate's birth mother .
As it is , at the time I read Maddie & Scott's wedding I was disapointed that Maddie didn't turn out to be Jean ,especially what with the plane crash at the moment of Jean's death and all that . Her being a clone animated by a fragment of the Phoenix is way better than the whole similarities between the two being a coincidence .

[Anodyne]

I have a friend who back in the day thought Jean would go thru the Seige Perilous gate and become Maddie . I love that theory , it would've really complicated Jean 's relationship with Scott ( After all he left her for a slighter younger version of herself ) ,and she'd be Nate's birth mother .
As it is , at the time I read Maddie & Scott's wedding I was disapointed that Maddie didn't turn out to be Jean ,especially what with the plane crash at the moment of Jean's death and all that . Her being a clone animated by a fragment of the Phoenix is way better than the whole similarities between the two being a coincidence .
Making Maddie look like Jean was supposed to be a homage to Hitchcock's Vertigo. Making her actually *be* Jean might have seemed too much like a ripoff of the movie.
I wish Claremont had revealed that the resemblance was Mastermind's doing: Wyngarde made Madelyne see her own face when she looked at Jean's photo; he made everyone else see Jean's face when they looked at Maddie. Then at least people wouldn't be saying it was OK for Scott to walk out on his wife because she wasn't a real person.:mad: And please don't say Scott didn't intend to leave her. By his own later admission, from the moment Warren told him Jean was alive, Scott wasn't thinking clearly enough to know what he intended, beyond his desire to be with Jean.

I'm waiting for a retcon that reveals that the real Madelyne was trapped inside her own mind during Inferno, like Xavier inside Onslaught, watching in horror at what the Goblin Queen was trying to do to her baby.