Merlin? from N.E. #11

[Dragonheart]

Sorry if this has been asked before, i tried the search but couldnt find anything with it. Since i just recently started reading comics, i just got done reading New Excalibur #11, where they go back in time to camelot and save Merlin. Now is this the same Merlin that used the original Excalibur and controlled otherword, gave Captain Britain his powers and daughter is Roma? Or is this a different Merlin?

[Beast]

Yes, according to canon that Merlin is the same as Merlyn.

Of course, that's from Merlyn's own mouth. And he's a known liar and manipulator.

Not only that, it's implied by Marvel's old Doctor Who comics... that he may also be A/The Doctor.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/merlinyn.htm

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Sorry if this has been asked before, i tried the search but couldnt find anything with it. Since i just recently started reading comics, i just got done reading New Excalibur #11, where they go back in time to camelot and save Merlin. Now is this the same Merlin that used the original Excalibur and controlled otherword, gave Captain Britain his powers and daughter is Roma? Or is this a different Merlin?

Continuity would dictate that this Merlin, the Wizard in the court of King Arthur, was indeed one of the many guises of Merlyn of Otherworld - as established way back in Captain Britain's original solo series.

However, I can understand why this is confusing you, because frankly it dumbfounded me. Largely because during the entire Last Days of Camelot arc, Frank Tieri writes as if Brian and Merlyn have NEVER been formerly introduced. They are strangers in this story, and that does make no sense whatsoever.

One can only assume that Frank Tieri did not do his homework. Large parts of his fill in run would also support that claim.

[Karl H]

One can only assume that Frank Tieri did not do his homework. Large parts of his fill in run would also support that claim.


I would blame the editors for this debacle.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

How about you blame who's ever dumb idea it was to include magic and King Arthur in a book about Mutants

[The Fury]

How about you blame who's ever dumb idea it was to include magic and King Arthur in a book about Mutants
That has 2 regular characters with magic based powers.

NEX is a Marvel Universe book, not X-men.

[Christopher O]

That has 2 regular characters with magic based powers.

NEX is a Marvel Universe book, not X-men.
Excalibur has always been treated as an X-Men book. I think that's part of the problem.

[twilight]

How about you blame who's ever dumb idea it was to include magic and King Arthur in a book about Mutants

Yes,no book should ever grow or deviate from it's original concept.

What's next? Female drivers?

[Beast]

Yes,no book should ever grow or deviate from it's original concept.

What's next? Female drivers?
Exactly in a comic world where magic is established and exists, ignoring it entirely is about as silly as ignoring the existance of mutants, metahumans, and everything else in the Marvel Universe.

[Daithi]

Excalibur has always been treated as an X-Men book. I think that's part of the problem.

By who? It's roots are very much in the Captain Britain mythos. It's not an X-Men title but has close ties to that world.

In any case when other books that actually have X-Men in the titles deal with space, aliens, limbo, demons and magic criticizing Excalibur for not being about mutants is odd.

[Dragonheart]

Continuity would dictate that this Merlin, the Wizard in the court of King Arthur, was indeed one of the many guises of Merlyn of Otherworld - as established way back in Captain Britain's original solo series.

However, I can understand why this is confusing you, because frankly it dumbfounded me. Largely because during the entire Last Days of Camelot arc, Frank Tieri writes as if Brian and Merlyn have NEVER been formerly introduced. They are strangers in this story, and that does make no sense whatsoever.

One can only assume that Frank Tieri did not do his homework. Large parts of his fill in run would also support that claim.

yeah thats what confused me. Captain Britain seemed to act like he didnt even know Merlin, i can maybe understand Merlin not knowing Captain Britain at the time, but he should know Merlin.

[Christopher O]

By who? It's roots are very much in the Captain Britain mythos. It's not an X-Men title but has close ties to that world.
By Marvel, for one, and I'm quite aware of the Captain Britain roots. That doesn't change the fact that X-Men characters have generally made up the majority of the cast, and they've generally brought X-Related plots with them. I'd much rather this be a team of mostly non-mutant British heroes, dealing with a variety of Sci-Fi/Fantasy based problems. Make this book about Captain Britain, Union Jack, Pete Wisdom, and Elsa Bloodstone, and I'd be all over it. Right now, it's stuck in the X-Ghetto along with the current king of the X-Ghetto, Chris Claremont.

[Daithi]

By Marvel, for one, and I'm quite aware of the Captain Britain roots.

Yeah it's under the X-Titles umbrella but isn't an X-title about mutants. Given that it's not taking part in Messiah Complex I don't think Marvel treat it as a mutant book either. Claremont and Davis both treated the original title as Sci-Fi/Fantasy.

[Novaya Havoc]

Yeah it's under the X-Titles umbrella but isn't an X-title about mutants. Given that it's not taking part in Messiah Complex I don't think Marvel treat it as a mutant book either. Claremont and Davis both treated the book as Sci-Fi/Fantasy.

They were in WWH: X-Men. srsly. it's an x-book.

[Christopher O]

Yeah it's under the X-Titles umbrella but isn't an X-title about mutants.
That's exactly what it is. The cast is comprised almost entirely of mutants, so being a mostly mutant book under the X-Title umbrella makes it an X-Men book. What's so hard about that?

Given that it's not taking part in Messiah Complex I don't think Marvel treat it as a mutant book either.
Once again, they classify it as an X-Men book, and the majority of the cast is mutants. The writing is on the wall.

Claremont and Davis both treated the original title as Sci-Fi/Fantasy. I'm aware of that, but the book slowly turned into X-Men Europe. Then, it was X-Men Genosha. Now, it's back to largely being X-Men Europe. Hell, the first antagonists for the new team were dopplegangers of the original X-Men.

[Daithi]

They were in WWH: X-Men. srsly. it's an x-book.

Nah, it's a mess of a book now. However I don't think it should be criticized for using magic or King Arthur in it's plots because it's supposed to be about mutants.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

magic is awesome


"Accio Hermione's shirt!"

[Huzzah!]

magic is awesome


"Accio Hermione's shirt!"

OMG! Hilarious

I dont know you or anything but i want you inside my mouth

now!

[Flight]

OMG! Hilarious

I dont know you or anything but i want you inside my mouth

now! Whaaaaaa~~~~~~~!!!!!!~

[The Sword Is Drawn]

How about you blame who's ever dumb idea it was to include magic and King Arthur in a book about Mutants

Excalibur was never created or developed as an X-Book. Heck at the time it was launched, and Ranked amongst Marvel's Best-Sellers, there was no such concept AS an X-Book. We had Uncanny and New Mutants, and the original incarnation of X-Factor was also kicking off, but the X-Stable as we knew it in the 90s wasn't even a fledgling idea back then. Excalibur was just another Marvel Comic Book, set in the British corner of the Marvel Universe. The only comparable book out there would have been Alpha Flight in terms of a similar role.

Excalibur had its own supporting cast, rogues gallery, and remit. The only connection to the X-Men was having three former X-Men on the team. But was the fact they were former X-Men specific to the many of the stories? Next to none for the first 60 issues. Did the characters acknowledge their past with the X-Men? In passing occasionally, but never as a focus. I think it says a lot that Kitty Pryde doesn't even mention Colossus for over 70 issues for example, and Nightcrawler doesn't refer to Amanda until she turns up much later into the book's run. Mutant issues were never really part of the stories for over 5 years, because frankly they were not relevant.

It was its own entity right up until Lobdell was giving the job, and the remit of making Excalibur part of the New 90s 'X-Stable'. But I think it's pretty telling that the only way he was able to do that was to axe over 70% of the cast, abandon every supporting cast member, every previously established Excalibur location, and not use one single character from Excalibur's rogues gallery.

Basically, unless you were a character who had appeared in an X-Men comic before you were no longer allowed to be on the book. Even if you were a mutant. Or indeed if you were in the middle of a story in the cases of characters like Kylun.

Meggan and Cap eventually returned - but what Lobdell did to him was frankly even more ridiculous...

Now granted 'New' Excalibur was supposed to focusing on 'Britain after M-Day' but it was more from the 'This Country is now F%&^ed up, with nobody to protect it. So let's start a team to do that Avenge- er, *Cough* I mean Excalibur!' POV. It's still spent most of its time with Marvel Universe concepts rather than X-Men. But that's the Brand. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

But for God's Sake get somebody better to write it.... :D

yeah thats what confused me. Captain Britain seemed to act like he didnt even know Merlin, i can maybe understand Merlin not knowing Captain Britain at the time, but he should know Merlin.

Exactly. Just poor basic research really, and editors who have consistently screwed things up on this title by not so much taking their eye of the ball but forgetting what a ball even looks like a retrieving a tennis racket instead...:(

[Joe Acro]

I've been lost on exactly who's Merlin since reading Nick Fury's Howling Commandos, in which a seemingly demented Merlin turns a section of Britain back to the look and feel of Camelot times.

However, the Handbook did an entry on Merlin last year. I didn't read it at the time (though now I have incentive), but anyone confused should probably check it out.

[Mikl C]

Crucio!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tetragene]

My stance on the subject: Marvel has NEX listed under X-titles for solicits and subsciptions...regardless of what any original intentions may have been. It's an X-book, with majority X-centric/related characters.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

My stance on the subject: Marvel has NEX listed under X-titles for solicits and subsciptions...regardless of what any original intentions may have been. It's an X-book, with majority X-centric/related characters.

Since around 1994 it has been tied to the X-Books, yes. It doesn't fit there very well, and its certainly not enjoyed the success it had in the pre-X-Franchise days. It's a poor fit, and until the editors actually allow the title the freedom to play to the very strengths they instructed writers in the mid 90s to ignore it will always seem a mish mash.

Why shove a book British-based book, supposedly dealing with the huge drop of mutants still active in Britain, full of unassociated B and C list X-Men, when there are several British Marvel Universe Mutants, some of whom used to even BE part of Excalibur, out there just waiting for a return, or oodles of other British characters who aren't mutants but are twenty times more interesting.

It doesn't make much sense, and I think that having seen the good response Wisdom got, written without trying to force characters to be related to the X-Men, they might finally be seeing where they've been fudging things up all these years...

Here's hoping.

[DMike]

Eh, they could always just say it was Merlin Demonspawn (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/merlinds.htm) (the imposter Merlin who was exposed as a fraud by Sersi and became the Maha Yogi in the Silver Age).

[Loki]

I've been lost on exactly who's Merlin since reading Nick Fury's Howling Commandos, in which a seemingly demented Merlin turns a section of Britain back to the look and feel of Camelot times.

However, the Handbook did an entry on Merlin last year. I didn't read it at the time (though now I have incentive), but anyone confused should probably check it out.

You have three outs any time Merlyn/Merlin acts out of character, as the handbook entry detailed.

The first is that it's an imposter, often Merlin Demonspawn, a.k.a. the Maha Yogi, a.k.a. the Mad Merlin, though there have also been other imposters.

The second is that it is a rogue aspect of Merlin. Merlyn is a gestalt entity, the combination of every Merlin in every reality across the multiverse (and possibly omniverse). While we haven't seen evidence of a singular aspect from one reality going rogue and acting contrary to the main Merlyn's desires, in theory it could happen.

The third, easiest, and most likely, is that Merlyn is just plain devious. His ends are for the good, but he is ruthless when it comes to the means, and doesn't tend to be open with anyone about his plans, either because he thinks that if people know what he is planning they might thwart him (if they disagree) or screw things up (if they do agree), or simply because he gets off on playing the manipulator.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

My stance on the subject: Marvel has NEX listed under X-titles for solicits and subsciptions...regardless of what any original intentions may have been. It's an X-book, with majority X-centric/related characters.

they need to list it under "Canceled books"


*high five*

[Bulky Brent]

NEX was never in anyway an X-Book

[The Sword Is Drawn]

they need to list it under "Canceled books"


*high five*

Just saying it isn't actually going to make it happen... :rolleyes:

In order to do that you'd have to eliminate a heck of a fan-base, too.

Excalibur still has one of those. Just like Alpha Flight, or New Warriors. Even The Defenders. The difference is that Excalibur and Alpha Flight both pitch to more international markets, sales wise.

You have three outs any time Merlyn/Merlin acts out of character, as the handbook entry detailed.

The first is that it's an imposter, often Merlin Demonspawn, a.k.a. the Maha Yogi, a.k.a. the Mad Merlin, though there have also been other imposters.

The second is that it is a rogue aspect of Merlin. Merlyn is a gestalt entity, the combination of every Merlin in every reality across the multiverse (and possibly omniverse). While we haven't seen evidence of a singular aspect from one reality going rogue and acting contrary to the main Merlyn's desires, in theory it could happen.

The third, easiest, and most likely, is that Merlyn is just plain devious. His ends are for the good, but he is ruthless when it comes to the means, and doesn't tend to be open with anyone about his plans, either because he thinks that if people know what he is planning they might thwart him (if they disagree) or screw things up (if they do agree), or simply because he gets off on playing the manipulator.

And devious he remains. Has he officially been seen in proper continuity, since around the time of Excalibur #50? That's the last time I recall seeing him.

While a newer story, I also have to wonder what reason Merlyn had to create Albion, also? Roma wanted his powers taken away when he chose the sword, but Merlyn wanted to wait and see. Unlike most Captains Britain, Albion was never told anything about the Corps, or the multiverse. When that little Pandora's box was opened - or in this case dimensional portal - Albion vowed to wipe out every Captain he found and get revenge on Roma.

Maybe that's why Captain Britain can't get back to Otherworld - Roma closed its borders. It strikes me that in creating Albion Merlyn COULD have the perfect sleeper agent. He has a heck of a lot more power than most Captains, a Ni on indestructible Sword, and sociopathic tendencies. He gets let out of his 'cage' dimension, kills all Captains who could oppose him, and eventually levels Otherworld.

Just in time for Merlyn to snub him out and take command of his domain, again.;)

[Loki]

And devious he remains. Has he officially been seen in proper continuity, since around the time of Excalibur #50? That's the last time I recall seeing him.

If you mean seen as Merlyn of Otherworld, rather than Merlin of Camelot, then the last time he was seen outside of flashbacks was Excalibur #125, when he covertly attended Brian and Meggan's wedding, and then had a cordial chat with Roma, where both revealed their suspicions that the other had arranged for Excalibur to disband, then both admitted to the other that wasn't the case and that the team had taken their destinies into their own hands.

While a newer story, I also have to wonder what reason Merlyn had to create Albion, also? Roma wanted his powers taken away when he chose the sword, but Merlyn wanted to wait and see.

Yes, because despite what they told Albion, he wasn't the only Captain ever to have taken the sword. And Roma knew that, which means her protestations were part of the act - people like to think she's the nice one of the two, but forget that though she has more of a conscience, she was part of Merlyn's manipulations for centuries and so can be as devious as her father. So, you've got to ask, why would Merlyn and Roma want a rogue Corpsman, whose actions can be denied by Otherworld?

Unlike most Captains Britain, Albion was never told anything about the Corps, or the multiverse.

Again, prior to Merlyn's funeral, it seems several of the Captains didn't know about Otherworld - look at Captain UK's reaction to visiting there, and Kaptain Briton seemed to be equally surprised to learn he had identical looking counterparts. I'm guessing that under Merlyn, the Corps were told little of the source of their power, and only those from realities already used to easy-access dimension travel knew more. Even those who knew they had counterparts on other Earths wouldn't necessarily have known their creation was an organised thing; they'd have assumed it was just the same kind of dimensional paralleling that sees various versions of Peter Parker become a variant on Spider-Man.