X-POSITION: Week Ten

[andy khouri]

In our latest installment, X-Editor Nick Lowe gives fans an X-Update in light of the many X-centric San Diego Comic-Con announcements.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11464

[dotdotdot]

consider me pumped

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

How the hell are we supposed to send our questions in without knowing who we're sending them too?

I'm not going to submit a Psylocke question to someone that writes Xfactor

[Beast]

http://images.comicbookresources.com/news/x-position/ten/ENDGRCH009006_b.jpg

Awesome. Though I really dislike Dark Beast's new costume. And I thought the slacks were bad.

[Joe Franklin]

Good to know Mike Carey is confirmed for the long haul. Now if only we can get Bachalo confirmed as well.:cool:

[Joe Franklin]

http://images.comicbookresources.com/news/x-position/ten/ENDGRCH009006_b.jpg

Awesome. Though I really dislike Dark Beast's new costume. And I thought the slacks were bad.

Dark Beast looks so much cooler then crappy cat Beast does.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

Dark Beast looks so much cooler then crappy cat Beast does.

That's b/c Dark Beast never encountered 101001

[rwsmith]

I think cat-Beast looks like he'd rip him a new one, actually.

[Joe Franklin]

I think cat-Beast looks like he'd rip him a new one, actually.

Never said he looked tougher, just cooler.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

More Dark Beast/Beast issues. I love it.

And Rachel>Jean. Officially....
4) And for my last question, Rachel Summers possessed a small fraction of the Phoenix force during her space adventure. A fraction of infinity is infinity, so can we expect Rachel to go "Dark Phoenix" anytime soon as her connection with the force has been re-established?

I'm not going to discount anything. Rachel is, with or without the Phoenix Force, one of the most powerful characters in the universe. That makes it convenient when she gets in arm-wrestling tournaments.

[Beast]

Never said he looked tougher, just cooler.
That's cause the Cat Beast look is horrible.

Especially since there's already so many 'Cat' type characters in Marvel.

[Gene M.]

That's cause the Cat Beast look is horrible.

Especially since there's already so many 'Cat' type characters in Marvel.
No, no, no. They're LUPINE.

[Beast]

No, no, no. They're LUPINE.
Don't make me open a can of Beast Whoop-Ass on you. :p

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

No, no, no. They're LUPINE.

So they aren't really mutants but decendents of something Wolf-like and you need a magical sword to kill them?:confused:

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Kitty Pryde ate some cheese on some bread while being watched by Rachel Grey.

Wow really?


Im so hard right now

[Gene M.]

Don't make me open a can of Beast Whoop-Ass on you. :p
Will you wear some of those stylish Dark Beast Osh-Kosh overalls when you do it?

[Beast]

Will you wear some of those stylish Dark Beast Osh-Kosh overalls when you do it?
Like I said, I hate his new costume. Give me those sexy metal shorts anyday. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/MasterSplinter/DarkBeast2.jpg

[Mitteloss]

Several of the Marauders aren't what they seem.


Well, Lady Mastermind is yet to atttack any of the X-Men on purpose or not, I hope she betrays the Marauders and she, in her true style, is only siding with the Marauders for her own safety.

[Flight]

It's hardly a costume!
He just put on a pair of slacks to go for a jaunt!

A JAUNT I tell thee!

[Gene M.]

Like I said, I hate his new costume. Give me those sexy metal shorts anyday. :D
His new costume clearly represents the plight of the modern day American farmer.

[Joe Franklin]

Like I said, I hate his new costume. Give me those sexy metal shorts anyday. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/MasterSplinter/DarkBeast2.jpg

He looks awesome.

And every time Joey Q asks the audience at a comic book convention which Beast they like best, Ape beast always wins, and yet Marvel still insists on keeping him looking craptacualr as a cat? What gives?

[Nyssane]

Eh, this was a disappointing X-Position, IMO. The others seemed so juicy... I think it's the lack of Faded questions.

[Beast]

He looks awesome.

And every time Joey Q asks the audience at a comic book convention which Beast they like best, Ape beast always wins, and yet Marvel still insists on keeping him looking craptacualr as a cat? What gives?
Because Whedon won't allow him changed back, as it would interfere with his hyper-delayed run that keeps being pushed further forward into the timeline. Even Quesda has said he prefers the Apeman look. Expect it to eventually resurface, especially if most of the people interested in Hank have their druthers. :)

[Red Lotus]

They answered all my question, but they cut one in half and didn't even get to the main thing I wanted to know.

[Flight]

They answered all my question, but they cut one in half and didn't even get to the main thing I wanted to know. "How many toes does Psylocke have"?

[Novaya Havoc]

I fail to see how cutting a book like NEX or Exiles will impact the X-Line itself in any way.

[Joe Franklin]

I fail to see how cutting a book like NEX or Exiles will impact the X-Line itself in any way.

It won't. Neither title has any direct ties to the current X-Men storylines. They are hardly even X-books at all.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I fail to see how cutting a book like NEX or Exiles will impact the X-Line itself in any way.

Join the club.

[Grunty]

Funny i think it was already clear that there is no "power on" switch.
Since thats what everyone of the editors have said so far.

The intresting thing I noticed is that many readers simply want a repower switch to apear after Messiah complex so they can finaly see theire favorits getting theire powers back.

But when I think about the list of liked characters which got depowered, even if readers could decide who to get repowered the list would still be below 50.

However the question now remains how should characters get repowered?

So far we have:
1. That cosmic crystal thing from Uncanny X-men.
2. Celestial technology.
3. The Collectiv (if Magento actualy has his powers back).
4. That it was just a shock from House of M (see Icemen).
5. It was just a secondary mutation that got lost. See Masque and Black Tom.

Which brings me to some possebilitys how someone after Messiah Complex could get theire powers back.
1. Near death experince: Good old method, a depowered character protects someone with his/her body and triggers a sudden reactivation of the returned X-gene, mostly works for healing factor mutants.

2. Chaos magic: Since thats what it caused it could also be that what gives someone the powers back. However this possebility is kind of difficult to do because most depowered mutants are B, C, D listers which barely got in contact with magical gifted people.

3. Science: Some old Weapon X or simliar organisation, dude found out of how trigger a repowerment. Works for storys when connected with deadly risks. Possible already worked for Wildchild.

Any other possebilitys that those editors could accept?

Anyway i like how Darkbeast still looks like the old Beast just in black and 20 years older.

[dotdotdot]

quesada was also behind decimation. his opinions don't aren't necessarily trustworthy.

[Brett P]

I fear for New X-Men right now...I really do. My "oh sh!t" sense is tingling.

[Flâneur]

Nick Lowe does not know a thing about paper.
He should go back to making cheese.
In Excalibur #53, Kitty Pryde ate some cheese on some bread while being watched by Rachel Grey.
Oh dear, I actually thought this was really DDM for a second :p

[rilokyle]

Oh dear, I actually thought this was really DDM for a second :p

Yeah, I did a double take too!

[Hi-Fi]

I can sleep now!

[Faded]

Yay, Mike Carey! Go Hi-FI!

Eh, this was a disappointing X-Position, IMO. The others seemed so juicy... I think it's the lack of Faded questions.

I sent in questions but they kinda sucked. The only good ones I had were pretty much mirrored by other posters anyways.

There's no “power on” switch in the people who lost their powers on M-Day. Polaris needed Apocalypse to re-power her. Xavier needed to be thrust into the M'kraan crystal. They can't just suddenly have powers back.

Time to throw Scanner at a giant crystal and see what happens!

[Brett P]

I can sleep now!

Oh noes you can't! :(

[Hi-Fi]

And dudes! I mentioned Sunspot, Karma and Tabby and he said TWO of them are making a comeback in early 2008. YAY!!

Brett, I'm sure the New X-Men kids are safe.

[Faded]

And dudes! I mentioned Sunspot, Karma and Tabby and he said TWO of them are making a comeback in early 2008. YAY!!

I know! I bet its Tabby and Sunspot since Karma is apparently not allowed to be a star.

Oh and I think Cat Beast looks great under Eaton. Especially if Dark Beast is to exist, they should definitely be in different forms.

[Toboe]

Oh dear, I actually thought this was really DDM for a second :p

LOL! Me too, I was all like wtf?

Well, this X-Position was not very interesting... Let's hope the next one is better.

[Red Lotus]

And dudes! I mentioned Sunspot, Karma and Tabby and he said TWO of them are making a comeback in early 2008. YAY!!

Brett, I'm sure the New X-Men kids are safe.

I hope its Sunspot and Karma. Isn't she still staying with the X-men. You would think if some one is attacking the place she calls home she would be there trying to protect it. :(

[Mikl C]

Faded: Any Risque appearances?
MiklC: No.


HAPPPYYYYY>!??¬?¬
Even though it makes me sad

[frog]

Oh and I think Cat Beast looks great under Eaton. Especially if Dark Beast is to exist, they should definitely be in different forms.

I agree. We've got enough people looking and acting like monkeys anyway! And that haircut still has to go.

Perhaps Dark Beast's attitude comes from getting pinched in certain places by those metal shorts. :D

[Wind-Breaker]

2. Chaos magic: Since thats what it caused it could also be that what gives someone the powers back. However this possebility is kind of difficult to do because most depowered mutants are B, C, D listers which barely got in contact with magical gifted people.


"There is no such thing as chaos magic" :D

Dr. Strange is so full of it...

My vote is for the crystal from the Shi'ar arc, simple and easy plot device that could re-power are old favs.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

karma > sunspot and tabby


I hope its her.

Also, where did dark beast get all those earrings? Cause i think i noticed those same earrings in that rip off thread on ...emma?.... i guess. I couldnt really tell as i have no idea what that thread is about.

[Faded]

Faded: Any Risque appearances?
MiklC: No.


HAPPPYYYYY>!??¬?¬
Even though it makes me sad

I asked again!!!

I failed.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

What exactly is so special about Risque?

Not that i'm against bringing her back, but I'd like to know why she's so cool, other than her name.

Didn't she seduce one of the Xforce guys?

[ProfeZZor X]

I think cat-Beast looks like he'd rip him a new one, actually.

He also appears to be bigger than Dark Beast too... So I wouldn't doubt it.

[ProfeZZor X]

At least they answered the age old question of whether or not the previous mutants will be repowered.... I'm so happy they answered thatfor us.

[We R. Venom]

Isnt Beast(Hank...not the clone, alternate whatever version), stronger and faster in cat form anyway?

[Beast]

He also appears to be bigger than Dark Beast too... So I wouldn't doubt it.
Well, like Carey said... previously Dark Beast had an advantage power wise.

He was stronger than Beast. But that's not the case anymore.

Of course, Dark Beast is still a much more dirty fighter than Hank.

[Diablito]

Dark Beast is amazing! I want him to re-infiltrate the X-Men, so I can have me some monthly Dark Beast.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Where is proven that Cat Beast is stronger? Don't remember such a clean statement coming out.

[Hi-Fi]

karma > sunspot and tabby


I hope its her.
I think Tabby is the most likely to return, considering Nick's hint.

[Faded]

What exactly is so special about Risque?

Not that i'm against bringing her back, but I'd like to know why she's so cool, other than her name.

Didn't she seduce one of the Xforce guys?

Yeah, she seduced and was with Warpath for a while.

I liked her because she was fun, spontaneous, and just seems like my kinda girl! She really helped Jimmy loosen up when Terry was c*ck teasing, even if she was kinda playing him on the side (see Meg from Herclues! someone totally stole!)

All this despite being a date rapist.

[Anna]

And dudes! I mentioned Sunspot, Karma and Tabby and he said TWO of them are making a comeback in early 2008. YAY!!

Brett, I'm sure the New X-Men kids are safe.

Actually, he said "More than one."

[streator]

good news about carey sticking around.

the thing about two of the marauders not being what they seem? mystique and maybe gambit coming around, possibly.

were those pages of xavier and shaw from the endagered species one-shot or are they new pages? i haven't read that one-shot yet, but it looks like eaton's work.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Yeah...it's from the one shot.

[Cayman]

http://images.comicbookresources.com/news/x-position/ten/ENDGRCH009006_b.jpg

Awesome. Though I really dislike Dark Beast's new costume. And I thought the slacks were bad.

Why is Dark Beast so tiny?

[Pro]

Still not sure whether to be excited or disappointed ..
Still don't give a damn about decimation or most of the storylines stemming from it (x-factor excepted as usual). Still just feels like:"We've destroyed the setting of your favorite comics, go buy avengers!".

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Usually Dark Beast has HUGE legs if nothing else.

[jen]

Still just feels like:"We've destroyed the setting of your favorite comics, go buy avengers!".

QFT!!!

I agree. Also, it says Carey will be staying, but will he be writing X-Men?

[ProfeZZor X]

QFT!!!

I agree. Also, it says Carey will be staying, but will he be writing X-Men?

As long as he takes Rogue and Iceman where ever he goes, I don't care what book he's doing.

[We R. Venom]

As long as he takes Rogue and Iceman where ever he goes, I don't care what book he's doing.

*high five*

[Henry T.]

More Dark Beast/Beast issues. I love it.

And Rachel>Jean. Officially....
4) And for my last question, Rachel Summers possessed a small fraction of the Phoenix force during her space adventure. A fraction of infinity is infinity, so can we expect Rachel to go "Dark Phoenix" anytime soon as her connection with the force has been re-established?

I'm not going to discount anything. Rachel is, with or without the Phoenix Force, one of the most powerful characters in the universe. That makes it convenient when she gets in arm-wrestling tournaments.

That doesn't mean that Rachel is greater than Jean. The same is true with Jean Grey. She is still an Omega mutant even without the Phoenix Force. In X-Men the Hidden Years the Phoenix Force said that Jean had unlimited potential for power. In X-Men Forever, they explain that Jean is the kind of mutant that has the potential to evolve and replace the fundamental forces of the universe.

Of course they seem to have gone back to the idea that Jean Grey and the Phoenix force may ultimately be literally the same being anyways. However, regardless to how Jean Grey and her connection to the Phoenix identity and power is defined, Jean Grey is still a powerful mutant with unlimited potential.

Anyways next weeks X-Factor Endangered Species backstory has some nice things to say about Jean Grey and her power...

They talk about how Jean Grey is beyond mutation and is in a higher category. They say that each cell in her body is a "separate power center". They talk about how she is/was unique (until children were made from her).

They compare her to "white fountains of spontaneous energy of cosmic birth".

They basically said that Nate Grey was as powerful as he was because he was made from Jean and had "her powers and morphology".


Anyways going back to the question to Nick Lowe, I think it would be cool if Rachel went Dark Marvel Girl ("Dark Phoenix") and Jean came back as Phoenix. Then we could have a Phoenix v.s. Dark Phoenix story.

[rwsmith]

I think I would openly weep if that happened. Right before I burned my collection of X-books and found a new hobby.

Sorry, but one flaming "cosmic parrot" (as Phil calls it) is bad enough. Two would be absolutely horrible!

[Anna]

That doesn't mean that Rachel is greater than Jean. The same is true with Jean Grey. She is still an Omega mutant even without the Phoenix Force. In X-Men the Hidden Years the Phoenix Force said that Jean had unlimited potential for power. In X-Men Forever, they explain that Jean is the kind of mutant that has the potential to evolve and replace the fundamental forces of the universe.

Of course they seem to have gone back to the idea that Jean Grey and the Phoenix force may ultimately be literally the same being anyways. However, regardless to how Jean Grey and her connection to the Phoenix identity and power is defined, Jean Grey is still a powerful mutant with unlimited potential.

Anyways next weeks X-Factor Endangered Species backstory has some nice things to say about Jean Grey and her power...

They talk about how Jean Grey is beyond mutation and is in a higher category. They say that each cell in her body is a "separate power center". They talk about how she is/was unique (until children were made from her).

They compare her to "white fountains of spontaneous energy of cosmic birth".

They basically said that Nate Grey was as powerful as he was because he was made from Jean and had "her powers and morphology".


Anyways going back to the question to Nick Lowe, I think it would be cool if Rachel went Dark Marvel Girl ("Dark Phoenix") and Jean came back as Phoenix. Then we could have a Phoenix v.s. Dark Phoenix story.


hhhhuuuuuhhhhrrraaaallllp1 Ptui ptui....

[Flâneur]

I think it would be cool if Rachel went Dark Marvel Girl ("Dark Phoenix") and Jean came back as Phoenix. Then we could have a Phoenix v.s. Dark Phoenix story.
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/830/hdrlogogo3.gif

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

I think I would openly weep if that happened. Right before I burned my collection of X-books and found a new hobby.

Sorry, but one flaming "cosmic parrot" (as Phil calls it) is bad enough. Two would be absolutely horrible!

I dont know



if they had sex with each other, it could be pretty hot

mmmm double entendre

[Omega Alpha]

I think I would openly weep if that happened. Right before I burned my collection of X-books and found a new hobby.

Sorry, but one flaming "cosmic parrot" (as Phil calls it) is bad enough. Two would be absolutely horrible!

Quoted for absolute truth.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

As long as he takes Rogue and Iceman where ever he goes, I don't care what book he's doing.

maybe he can hook rogue up with Peter Parker and we could have a new and improved spiderman and his superfriends

[Henry T.]

You want Jean and Rachel to have sex with each other? Mother-daughter incest!? :eek:

:confused: :(

Anyways, Rachel is already being somewhat corrupted by the blue Phoenix Force. She did butcher a bunch of Shiar troops afterall.

Jean as the true Phoenix will eventually return from the White Hot Room. She is suppose to return (by the continuity set forth from New X-Men, Endsong, and Warsong).

Jean and Rachel have also been shown to still be Phoenixes even without the "Phoenix Force" being within them. So there are going to be two Phoenixes anyways.

Now that the Phoenix is a part of Jean's innate genetic personhood again all of her children will have some connection to Phoenix power levels.

Thats basically what they are saying in next week's Endangered species. Jean is something beyond just being a mutant (thats because she is a Phoenix) and Nate Grey is/was the same thing she is.

Nate Grey actually manifested a Phoenix raptor once in one of his issues when he had his series. In X-Men the End they said that Cable was heir to the Phoenix like Rachel was. Of course Maddie was connected to the Phoenix as well.

The Phoenix is not just a force of the universe or a cosmic role, it is also a power level and a state of being.

Anyone with Jean's genes, on some level are Phoenixes. Thats why the Shiar killed the Greys in End of Greys. And there are others like Quentin Quire (who is also suppose to come back some day afterall like they said for Jean it just wasn't time to return yet) too.

Since Quentin was adopted, I'd love it if they revealed that he was kin to the Greys, but that probably won't happen.

Even though Cable and Nate Grey will probably never use the Phoenix identity or imagery (besides occassional incidents) they are as powerful as they are because they stem from Jean's genes and are on some level, Phoenixes.

The Phoenix concept is never going away. All they need is for the skilled writers to use it when its being used. And it should mostly be Jean's and Rachel's imagery, powers, and state of being. Jean as primary Phoenix and Rachel as a secondary phoenix, Marvel Girl.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

That doesn't mean that Rachel is greater than Jean. The same is true with Jean Grey. She is still an Omega mutant even without the Phoenix Force. In X-Men the Hidden Years the Phoenix Force said that Jean had unlimited potential for power. In X-Men Forever, they explain that Jean is the kind of mutant that has the potential to evolve and replace the fundamental forces of the universe.

Of course they seem to have gone back to the idea that Jean Grey and the Phoenix force may ultimately be literally the same being anyways. However, regardless to how Jean Grey and her connection to the Phoenix identity and power is defined, Jean Grey is still a powerful mutant with unlimited potential.

Anyways next weeks X-Factor Endangered Species backstory has some nice things to say about Jean Grey and her power...

They talk about how Jean Grey is beyond mutation and is in a higher category. They say that each cell in her body is a "separate power center". They talk about how she is/was unique (until children were made from her).

They compare her to "white fountains of spontaneous energy of cosmic birth".

They basically said that Nate Grey was as powerful as he was because he was made from Jean and had "her powers and morphology".


Anyways going back to the question to Nick Lowe, I think it would be cool if Rachel went Dark Marvel Girl ("Dark Phoenix") and Jean came back as Phoenix. Then we could have a Phoenix v.s. Dark Phoenix story.

Jean Grey has never beat anyone of note. She has never faced a Galactus. And Nate Grey was as powerful as he was because Sinister stated a long time ago that a union between Jean and Scott would generate a mutant of perfection and who's power would be more than enough to dispose of Apocalypse.

Jean being in a "higher catagory" and such was a retcon. She was never that powerful. Just some short time ago, she was getting captured by Genesis in a chess game between him and Sinister. Now..she's Omega level and unstoppable? Come on...

[Henry T.]

Jean Grey was a super powered telepath/telekinetic long before Rachel, Cable, or Nate ever were.

Remember her original Phoenix years? And remember how originally the Phoenix was not a separate thing or being?

Sure it was retconned but since then it has been de-retconned or at least partially so.

They have dumped the idea that it is Scott's genes that boost their children's power levels in favor of the idea that they inherit Jean's Phoenix level powers.

They never needed the concept that the Summer genes amplify their powers.

Scott and Jean's children are super powered telepath/telekinetics because Jean Grey is a super powered telepath/telekinetic.

During X-Factor and the 90s, Jean was in denial and surpressed her powers. Beings like Apocalypse and Onslaught basically took note of that fact.

No one said that Jean is unstoppable. She can be still be tricked, controlled, surpressed, and killed (although she will come back later).

But she is still an Omega Mutant and a Phoenix (a White Phoenix to be exact) and thus very powerful. And Jean being a White Phoenix was shown in 1990 (Classic X-Men #43) by Claremont. Morrison and Pak was using that continuity when they had her appear as White Phoenix.

Jean has done powerful things like healing the M'Krann crsystal, absorbing suns, and amputating an entire future reality.

[Henry T.]

Besides the additions to the AOA continuity (that recent mini where Jean resurrected as "mutant alpha" [Phoenix] and next week's endangered species backstory) show that it was Jean Grey who was the real special and powerful one and thus they made a child from her to use as a "telekinetic weapon".

Even the last writer of X-Man commented in an interview once at X-Fan (now ComiX-fan) that to him Nate Grey was as powerful as he was because he was a GREY and not a Summers.

They have always maintained that Jean Grey had unlimited potential within her ever since the first Phoenix years, even after the retcons, anyways.

It never seemed right for them to say that Rachel, Cable, or Nate were the powerful cosmic ones and Jean wasn't, when being powerful and cosmic was an aspect of Jean Grey's character before it was an aspect of theirs.

Why retcon that away from Jean and give it to her children?

Why were we to believe that their unlimited potential for power came from the Summers gene when their mother Jean Grey already had unlimited potential for power too?

[ClanAskani]

I've always thought that it made sense that Rachel and the Nates were as powerful or even more powerful than Jean because it was combining both Scott and Jean's DNA. It's not to lessen how powerful or important Jean is, but one could assume that when you combine the power shown by the Summers DNA with Grey DNA that it's going to result in the potential for abilities on a cosmic level, whether the Phoenix is involved or not.

[Brian M.]

Jean Grey has never beat anyone of note. She has never faced a Galactus. And Nate Grey was as powerful as he was because Sinister stated a long time ago that a union between Jean and Scott would generate a mutant of perfection and who's power would be more than enough to dispose of Apocalypse.

Jean being in a "higher catagory" and such was a retcon. She was never that powerful. Just some short time ago, she was getting captured by Genesis in a chess game between him and Sinister. Now..she's Omega level and unstoppable? Come on...

She could easily beat the crap out of Magneto.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

considering a fake magneto stroked her

kinda doubt it

;)

[Brian M.]

considering a fake magneto stroked her

kinda doubt it

;)

Na, Jean is the shit. #1 stunna in world full of fakers.

But I mean hey...Magneto can create wormholes to teleport himself to go pick up Wanda...

[Erik Lehnsherr]

She could easily beat the crap out of Magneto.

You're setting yourself up and don't even see it...New X-Men #150. A Magneto imposter PUNKED out Jean Grey in magnicient style to end her run on earth and send her into limbo for the last 4 years. Magneto Was Right. Remember?:evilsmile :evilsmile

Jean Grey was a super powered telepath/telekinetic long before Rachel, Cable, or Nate ever were.

Remember her original Phoenix years? And remember how originally the Phoenix was not a separate thing or being?

Sure it was retconned but since then it has been de-retconned or at least partially so.

They have dumped the idea that it is Scott's genes that boost their children's power levels in favor of the idea that they inherit Jean's Phoenix level powers.

They never needed the concept that the Summer genes amplify their powers.

Scott and Jean's children are super powered telepath/telekinetics because Jean Grey is a super powered telepath/telekinetic.

During X-Factor and the 90s, Jean was in denial and surpressed her powers. Beings like Apocalypse and Onslaught basically took note of that fact.

No one said that Jean is unstoppable. She can be still be tricked, controlled, surpressed, and killed (although she will come back later).

But she is still an Omega Mutant and a Phoenix (a White Phoenix to be exact) and thus very powerful. And Jean being a White Phoenix was shown in 1990 (Classic X-Men #43) by Claremont. Morrison and Pak was using that continuity when they had her appear as White Phoenix.

Jean has done powerful things like healing the M'Krann crsystal, absorbing suns, and amputating an entire future reality.

Dude..you're acting like she did that by herself. Healin M'Kraan crystals and taking down stars with a thought is Nate Grey level. Jean was given the Phoenix entity to up her power level. She was never able to fight a Exodus by herself but Nate Grey was. She was never able to fight Apocalypse by herself but Nate Grey did. She wasn't the one that Onslaught himself was weary of when he launched his attack...Nate Grey and Cable were(Cable #31).

For all of her power, she got punked out in record time by Xorneto when the world needed her the most. Madelyne Pryor EMBARASSED her in X-Man #25. I mean..come on.

When Sinister says that Nate Grey is power incarnate...he's not lying. If Jean was that efficent and great, he would of captured her and made her fight Apocalypse to the death. But she wasn't powerful enough for such a feat. Which is why he created Madelyne Pryor to make Cable and why his counterpart in AOA did the same to create Nate Grey. In the end, Jean Grey was completely irrevelant and just a tool to create the "Ultimate Weapon."

[Beast]

You're setting yourself up and don't even see it...New X-Men #150. A Magneto imposter PUNKED out Jean Grey in magnicient style to end her run on earth and send her into limbo for the last 4 years. Magneto Was Right. Remember?:evilsmile :evilsmile
She allowed herself to die so she could be reborn and fix the future. ;)

[Brian M.]

You're setting yourself up and don't even see it...New X-Men #150. A Magneto imposter PUNKED out Jean Grey in magnicient style to end her run on earth and send her into limbo for the last 4 years. Magneto Was Right. Remember?:evilsmile :evilsmile

Magneto let a guy with metal claws and bones stab him...how many times has that happened?

[Erik Lehnsherr]

She allowed herself to die so she could be reborn and fix the future. ;)

Morrison retcon to explain her losing when it mattered. Her dying and losing to a guy who had the world at his mercy was for the best? Nope. Not buying that.

And, Brian, Magneto has never and will never lose to Wolverine in a direct fight. Without the X-Men probing his mind during a fight or shutting his powers off, he would have as much chance as Jean has against Exodus when he wants to punk her out.

[xmanson]

Jean being by Xorneto or whatever that was was just ridiculous. It was like Morrison had some more pages to fill at the end and decided to kill jean as an afterthought.

[Brian M.]

Morrison retcon to explain her losing when it mattered. Her dying and losing to a guy who had the world at his mercy was for the best? Nope. Not buying that.

And, Brian, Magneto has never and will never lose to Wolverine in a direct fight. Without the X-Men probing his mind during a fight or shutting his powers off, he would have as much chance as Jean has against Exodus when he wants to punk her out.

Jean would own Exodus, he's an amatuer compared to Phoenix.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

Jean would own Exodus, he's an amatuer compared to Phoenix.

Exodus is always owned by everyone that goes against him. He's never hurt/killed an Xman so I really don't 'get' the badass danger

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

actually if Jean and Magneto ever got into a real drag out fight it would be so epic that both of their powers would really drive them crazy


then they'd just kill everyone else in the universe

[Unkillable Cat]

I think it would be cool if Rachel went Dark Marvel Girl ("Dark Phoenix") and Jean came back as Phoenix. Then we could have a Phoenix v.s. Dark Phoenix story.

THE INTERNET SAYS NO.

But seriously, aren't those kind of ideas what the Exiles are for?

[Anna]

Jean preferred death to the embarassment of losing her man to Emma Frost.

[Anna]

Jean preferred death to the embarassment of losing her man to Emma Frost.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Jean would own Exodus, he's an amatuer compared to Phoenix.

Still..she was the one that got owned in X-Men #43 with just five words. "Stay out of my head."' And let's not even get into the owning from Bloodties. Jean was never presented as Exodus' equal. Nor was Xavier. That's the way it's always been.

[rwsmith]

Are we talking Jean or the Phoenix? Because Phoenix-Jean owns pretty much everyone in the Marvel Universe other than the Beyonder.

[Michael Sean]

Morrison retcon to explain her losing when it mattered. Her dying and losing to a guy who had the world at his mercy was for the best? Nope. Not buying that.

And, Brian, Magneto has never and will never lose to Wolverine in a direct fight. Without the X-Men probing his mind during a fight or shutting his powers off, he would have as much chance as Jean has against Exodus when he wants to punk her out.

That wasn't a retcon, it was a part of the story.

Jean's disinfection had been prophesized since New #133.

After Jean resurrected at the sun she said she didn't know how long they would let her stay.

When Jean died the cuckoos said there was something wrong with the universe.

When Jean hatched in the future she said that she was suppose to fix something that was dying.

Sublime said that he had been waiting for her.

Wolverine told Jean that Magneto had killed her under orders he didn't understand.

If Jean had not been predestined to be reborn in the future to do her Phoenix Work then she would have instantly resurrected when he killed her just like she did when Wolverine killed her in New #148 (and like how she kept instantly resurrecting in Endsong #3 later).

[Michael Sean]

double post

[Mikl C]

exodus craps all over any version of Jean that isn't fullout phoenix level.

[Bart Simpson]

Magneto let a guy with metal claws and bones stab him...how many times has that happened?

More times than 1 can count. Last time Wolverine left old magneto in a freaking wheel chair. I love it!!
Wolverine rocks!!

[Bart Simpson]

Jean Grey has never beat anyone of note. She has never faced a Galactus. And Nate Grey was as powerful as he was because Sinister stated a long time ago that a union between Jean and Scott would generate a mutant of perfection and who's power would be more than enough to dispose of Apocalypse.

Jean being in a "higher catagory" and such was a retcon. She was never that powerful. Just some short time ago, she was getting captured by Genesis in a chess game between him and Sinister. Now..she's Omega level and unstoppable? Come on...

She sure made a fool out of Magneto. When they last fought in EOD, she totally made him see what she wanted him to despite his chrome dome helmet that was supposed to keep her out. She lost to Xorneto, not because of a lack of power, but because she had compassion. HE was the one on his knees and having a break down. And she had to die to disinfect the timeline. She even commented that she didn't know how long she could stay.

And hate to break it to you, but last time Jean faced Apocalyspe she only had her telepathy and she still punked his @$$ out. First she psychically froze him and then ripped his essence out, utterly and completely.


Onslaught wanted her on his side, and only wanted her dead when she was being stubborn and kept him out of her head. Something the other X-Men weren't able to do.

Oh and in the AOA, it's Jean that Sinister was using all along as the "ultimate weapon". When she transformed into Phoenix, it only confirmed what his and Dark Beast's tests had shown; she was beyond your average mutation. Nate is only that way because he shares HER morphology and would have been easier to control than a grown up Jean.


Jean was the first omega mutant along with Iceman to be confirmed. Even as far back as during the 60's, it was noted that "the girl has unlimited mental powers!"

So her being omega isn't retcon, it only confirms what we already knew.

[Henry T.]

You're setting yourself up and don't even see it...New X-Men #150. A Magneto imposter PUNKED out Jean Grey in magnicient style to end her run on earth and send her into limbo for the last 4 years. Magneto Was Right. Remember?:evilsmile :evilsmile



Dude..you're acting like she did that by herself. Healin M'Kraan crystals and taking down stars with a thought is Nate Grey level. Jean was given the Phoenix entity to up her power level. She was never able to fight a Exodus by herself but Nate Grey was. She was never able to fight Apocalypse by herself but Nate Grey did. She wasn't the one that Onslaught himself was weary of when he launched his attack...Nate Grey and Cable were(Cable #31).

For all of her power, she got punked out in record time by Xorneto when the world needed her the most. Madelyne Pryor EMBARASSED her in X-Man #25. I mean..come on.

When Sinister says that Nate Grey is power incarnate...he's not lying. If Jean was that efficent and great, he would of captured her and made her fight Apocalypse to the death. But she wasn't powerful enough for such a feat. Which is why he created Madelyne Pryor to make Cable and why his counterpart in AOA did the same to create Nate Grey. In the end, Jean Grey was completely irrevelant and just a tool to create the "Ultimate Weapon."

Well she did some of those things before the Phoenix became a force she bonded with or an entity.

Remember that originally the Phoenix was just Jean after the radiation tore through the psychic barriers Xavier had put in her mind. Phoenix was Jean at her full potential as a psi.

Onsalught tried to get Franklin Richards, Nate Grey, and Jean Grey.

Remember Jean knocked down Onslaught in the astral plane and grabbed him by the throat in X-Men #53. He wanted her to be his consort.

In the Onslaught One Shot he was not able to get through her psychic shields.

Jean during the original Phoenix years, Revolution, and New X-Men was an equal to Xavier.

The Classic #42 backstory showed Jean as a 12 year old being able to sense further than Xavier on the astral plane.

When Jean fought Exodus she was still repressed when it came to her powers. I don't mind him beating her anyways because generally villians need to be more powerful/ruthless than the good guys anyways.

The thing still remains, that Jean Grey was the super powered tp/tk long before her kids.

And now Nate Grey and Jean Grey are considered the same thing and in the same power class.

We have seen that with or without the Phoenix Force, Jean Grey is still a Phoenix with unlimted omega potential and Phoenix level power.

[Michael Sean]

What If vol. 1 #27. Before the retcon and long before Rachel fought Galactus.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/whatif11.jpg

[Erik Lehnsherr]

That wasn't a retcon, it was a part of the story.

Jean's disinfection had been prophesized since New #133.

After Jean resurrected at the sun she said she didn't know how long they would let her stay.

When Jean died the cuckoos said there was something wrong with the universe.

When Jean hatched in the future she said that she was suppose to fix something that was dying.

Sublime said that he had been waiting for her.

Wolverine told Jean that Magneto had killed her under orders he didn't understand.

If Jean had not been predestined to be reborn in the future to do her Phoenix Work then she would have instantly resurrected when he killed her just like she did when Wolverine killed her in New #148 (and like how she kept instantly resurrecting in Endsong #3 later).

If Jean knew all of was going to happen, why did she let Xorneto kill 5,000 people in NY? Why did she allow herself and Logan to get set up like that? Why did she let Emma and Beast almost die in that exploision over the sea? Too many questions with not enough concrete answers again. Very easy to explain in retrospect by Morrsion though apparently. If it was by design, it was a horrible design that looks uncredible.

exodus craps all over any version of Jean that isn't fullout phoenix level.

Well everyone knows that except diehard Retcon Jean fans. Exodus has punked her out every single time they've ever encountered each other. Easy and without effort.

She sure made a fool out of Magneto. When they last fought in EOD, she totally made him see what she wanted him to despite his chrome dome helmet that was supposed to keep her out. She lost to Xorneto, not because of a lack of power, but because she had compassion. HE was the one on his knees and having a break down. And she had to die to disinfect the timeline. She even commented that she didn't know how long she could stay.

And hate to break it to you, but last time Jean faced Apocalyspe she only had her telepathy and she still punked his @$$ out. First she psychically froze him and then ripped his essence out, utterly and completely.


Onslaught wanted her on his side, and only wanted her dead when she was being stubborn and kept him out of her head. Something the other X-Men weren't able to do.

Oh and in the AOA, it's Jean that Sinister was using all along as the "ultimate weapon". When she transformed into Phoenix, it only confirmed what his and Dark Beast's tests had shown; she was beyond your average mutation. Nate is only that way because he shares HER morphology and would have been easier to control than a grown up Jean.


Jean was the first omega mutant along with Iceman to be confirmed. Even as far back as during the 60's, it was noted that "the girl has unlimited mental powers!"

So her being omega isn't retcon, it only confirms what we already knew.

Made a fool out of Magneto? LOL. Not even Dr. Doom has made a fool out of Magneto yet little Jean Grey has? You have got to be kidding me? She gets punked out by Madelyne Pryor, Nate Grey, Sinister, Apocalypse, Magneto, Xorneto, Exodus, whoever else you can name..yet she's making "fools" out of the greatest and most revered mutant in history? Yeah right.

In EOD, was Xavier who they gave the excuse of stopping Magneto's powers. Magneto slapped around the X-Men and Jean in record time. They had a ready made out for Xavier to stop Magneto from ruling the world. Magneto has shut off Xavier, Jean, and every member of the X-world's powers off at one time(Uncanny #304) but ALL OF A SUDDEN, they can shut his powers off without him knowing it? Excellent writing, Lobdell. Doesn't matter. Magneto is here. Jean is gone. Checkmate.

In X-Men #53, Onslaught left Jean Grey crying and humbled by his power and exposure about Xavier's secret desire to love her as a teenager. There was only one person who got the last laugh in that book and it was Onslaught.

In the AoA, Nate was the weapon that was sicced on Apocalypse and Holocaust to free Magneto in X-Men Omega. Jean was already dead at the time.

And Jean Grey's "unlimited" powers didn't stop Sinister from committing a mutant massacre, her being lost at sea after the Dark Phoenix incident, or Stryfe holding her captive on the moon by pure willpower.

We have seen that with or without the Phoenix Force, Jean Grey is still a Phoenix with unlimted omega potential and Phoenix level power.

That's pure retcon. She was never presented that strong in her career the 2000s. I mean...the Bastion stuff, Vargas, Cassandra Nova, Xorneto, etc. If she's a cosmic level power that equals Nate Grey of all people, she should of been able to stop all of that with ease and probably even sense it coming like Nate would have.

[Daithi]

What If vol. 1 #27. Before the retcon and long before Rachel fought Galactus.


Yes but it's a What..if? Besides Galactus wanted to make Jean a herald. He wanted to kill Rachel because she was a threat.

[Bart Simpson]

If Jean knew all of was going to happen, why did she let Xorneto kill 5,000 people in NY? Why did she allow herself and Logan to get set up like that? Why did she let Emma and Beast almost die in that exploision over the sea? Too many questions with not enough concrete answers again. Very easy to explain in retrospect by Morrsion though apparently. If it was by design, it was a horrible design that looks uncredible.



Well everyone knows that except diehard Retcon Jean fans. Exodus has punked her out every single time they've ever encountered each other. Easy and without effort.



Made a fool out of Magneto? LOL. Not even Dr. Doom has made a fool out of Magneto yet little Jean Grey has? You have got to be kidding me? She gets punked out by Madelyne Pryor, Nate Grey, Sinister, Apocalypse, Magneto, Xorneto, Exodus, whoever else you can name..yet she's making "fools" out of the greatest and most revered mutant in history? Yeah right.

In EOD, was Xavier who they gave the excuse of stopping Magneto's powers. Magneto slapped around the X-Men and Jean in record time. They had a ready made out for Xavier to stop Magneto from ruling the world. Magneto has shut off Xavier, Jean, and every member of the X-world's powers off at one time(Uncanny #304) but ALL OF A SUDDEN, they can shut his powers off without him knowing it? Excellent writing, Lobdell. Doesn't matter. Magneto is here. Jean is gone. Checkmate.

In X-Men #53, Onslaught left Jean Grey crying and humbled by his power and exposure about Xavier's secret desire to love her as a teenager. There was only one person who got the last laugh in that book and it was Onslaught.

In the AoA, Nate was the weapon that was sicced on Apocalypse and Holocaust to free Magneto in X-Men Omega. Jean was already dead at the time.

And Jean Grey's "unlimited" powers didn't stop Sinister from committing a mutant massacre, her being lost at sea after the Dark Phoenix incident, or Stryfe holding her captive on the moon by pure willpower.



That's pure retcon. She was never presented that strong in her career the 2000s. I mean...the Bastion stuff, Vargas, Cassandra Nova, Xorneto, etc. If she's a cosmic level power that equals Nate Grey of all people, she should of been able to stop all of that with ease and probably even sense it coming like Nate would have.

Jean didn't know EVERYTHING that was going to happen. She just knew that she couldn't stay long on earth because of phoenix work. Heck she didn't find out what the phoenix work was till she awoke 150 years in the future, but she had inklings.

You may not accept it, but she has. I never said Jean shut down Magneto's powers, but she did make Magneto see whatever the heck she wanted. I think you just dislike Jean and Wolverine both because they've both did a number on him.

You forgot to mention, that Jean was nowhere near full power and Exodus's power fluctuates badly too. Last time he lead an attack on the mansion he was taken out by Gambit I think.

And Magneto's powers didn't stop a man of metal from kicking his @$$! It's a comic book, and there wouldn't be a story if Jean was at full power the entire time (most of the time she was under psychic blocks). But it has been constantly mentioned that her potential and power are way up there even in the 60s. Even Pan recently said his encounter with Jean made the word open up like a fractal landscape.

Magneto has gotten the crap blasted out of him by Cyclops, got punked several times by Wolverine adamantium shield and all, got tricked by Jean telepathically and thrown around by her during the original Uncanny X-Men encounter after she became Phoenix, mind wiped by Xavier, left for dead by Fabian Cortez, dropped kicked by Psylocke, etc.

You fail to see that Jean had held herself back the almost entire time either willingly, or because of Xavier's mental blocks. It wasn't until New X-Men that she fully decided to embrace her phoenix nature.


It;s not a retcon. Like I said, her unlimited power was mentioned as far back as the 60's, before even Claremont. Fabian Nicieza just confirmed it with her omega status, her and Iceman being the first. Look it how powerful Iceman is, but he still has gotten defeated by the likes of Mr. Clean or whatever. Doesn't mean he's any less powerful, nor Jean is any less powerful. She and him have weaknesses because they are human.

In the AOA, Sinister revealed that Jean was his main goal. Serving Apocalyse was just a cover up.
He wanted to control Jean because the power she wielded could control the world and the timeline. He didn't care or needed humans wiped out. Jean was never dead in the AOA. She had merely become unleashed and saved everyone in that timeline. Sinister knew this because he says that the incident matched his readings on her prior.

I can name a bunch of big baddies that Jean has punked out too: She made Magneto see and believe what she wanted him to, ripped Cassandra Nova out of Xavier's body and defeated all her traps, froze and tore Apocalyspe from Cyclops, she has effected Juggernaut twice through his helmet sending him running the first time and the second time left him in a fetal position, knocked out the Hulk with psi-pressure, etc. she even kept Superman at bay with her tk in marvel dc all access.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Jean didn't know EVERYTHING that was going to happen. She just knew that she couldn't stay long on earth because of phoenix work. Heck she didn't find out what the phoenix work was till she awoke 150 years in the future, but she had inklings.

You may not accept it, but she has. I never said Jean shut down Magneto's powers, but she did make Magneto see whatever the heck she wanted. I think you just dislike Jean and Wolverine both because they've both did a number on him.

You forgot to mention, that Jean was nowhere near full power and Exodus's power fluctuates badly too. Last time he lead an attack on the mansion he was taken out by Gambit I think.

And Magneto's powers didn't stop a man of metal from kicking his @$$! It's a comic book, and there wouldn't be a story if Jean was at full power the entire time (most of the time she was under psychic blocks). But it has been constantly mentioned that her potential and power are way up there even in the 60s. Even Pan recently said his encounter with Jean made the word open up like a fractal landscape.

Magneto has gotten the crap blasted out of him by Cyclops, got punked several times by Wolverine adamantium shield and all, got tricked by Jean telepathically and thrown around by her during the original Uncanny X-Men encounter after she became Phoenix, mind wiped by Xavier, left for dead by Fabian Cortez, dropped kicked by Psylocke, etc.

You fail to see that Jean had held herself back the almost entire time either willingly, or because of Xavier's mental blocks. It wasn't until New X-Men that she fully decided to embrace her phoenix nature.


It;s not a retcon. Like I said, her unlimited power was mentioned as far back as the 60's, before even Claremont. Fabian Nicieza just confirmed it with her omega status, her and Iceman being the first. Look it how powerful Iceman is, but he still has gotten defeated by the likes of Mr. Clean or whatever. Doesn't mean he's any less powerful, nor Jean is any less powerful. She and him have weaknesses because they are human.

In the AOA, Sinister revealed that Jean was his main goal. Serving Apocalyse was just a cover up.
He wanted to control Jean because the power she wielded could control the world and the timeline. He didn't care or needed humans wiped out. Jean was never dead in the AOA. She had merely become unleashed and saved everyone in that timeline. Sinister knew this because he says that the incident matched his readings on her prior.

I can name a bunch of big baddies that Jean has punked out too: She made Magneto see and believe what she wanted him to, ripped Cassandra Nova out of Xavier's body and defeated all her traps, froze and tore Apocalyspe from Cyclops, she has effected Juggernaut twice through his helmet sending him running the first time and the second time left him in a fetal position, knocked out the Hulk with psi-pressure, etc. she even kept Superman at bay with her tk in marvel dc all access.

Bart, you have it wrong. I don't dislike Jean at all. She just needs a LONG, LONG break from the books. She can play savior for Uncanny #525. As for Wolverine? Mutant to mutant, what happens everytime he fights Magneto alone? I rest my case. During crossovers, they have Xavier shut Magneto's powers off or something shaky like that so Wolverine being in the scene can at least remain relevant instead of Magneto just tearing his head off of his body with a blink. Wolverine beating Magneto would be like him beating Thor or Silver Surfer. It's the most ridiculous thing that you can possibly and yet try to keep the X-books halfway readable.

Jean Grey was easily at full power in X-Men #43. It was Exodus who was fighting Holocaust at the time and still he dismissed Jean with just a blink.

No one in history has ever went through Magnus' shields. So that's a joke. Oh yeah..the first appearance of the originals and Magneto but other than that? He's stopped Galactus from killing the heroes of the world with his shields. All of that Wolverine comedy has no merit. Magneto got blasted by Cyclops in the last 10 years? When? Because Magneto humilated Cyclops in the 70s and 80s. Made him worthless at the Illyana funeral. Treated him like a nobody during the Acolytes first appearance. So I wouldn't be too happy about Cyclops situations. Even Xorneto dispatched him. A mere pretender? That's sad.

Magneto beat Jean Grey with her Phoenix powers in Uncanny #112-113. Clean. Legit. No excuses. The superior mutant won. Psylocke tried to use her psi knife on Magneto during the Genosha fight in original Acolyte intro story and she got backlashed out of the fight. Left her almost in tears. Fabien Cortez was DESTROYED by Magneto in Dark Seduction #4. You'll never see him again.

All of that Jean mental blocking stuff is pure retcon. It never existed beforehand. She was never that powerful without the Phoenix entity.

LOL@ leaving Juggernaut in the fetal position. Jean Grey?! HAHAHA! Damn. I remember Jean being in complete fear of Juggernaut in Uncanny #334.

[Cain Marko]

LOL@ leaving Juggernaut in the fetal position. Jean Grey?! HAHAHA! Damn. I remember Jean being in complete fear of Juggernaut in Uncanny #334.

It was Chuck Austen's Imposternaut that Jean left in the fetal position. No fear necessary.

[Bart Simpson]

Bart, you have it wrong. I don't dislike Jean at all. She just needs a LONG, LONG break from the books. She can play savior for Uncanny #525. As for Wolverine? Mutant to mutant, what happens everytime he fights Magneto alone? I rest my case. During crossovers, they have Xavier shut Magneto's powers off or something shaky like that so Wolverine being in the scene can at least remain relevant instead of Magneto just tearing his head off of his body with a blink. Wolverine beating Magneto would be like him beating Thor or Silver Surfer. It's the most ridiculous thing that you can possibly and yet try to keep the X-books halfway readable.

Jean Grey was easily at full power in X-Men #43. It was Exodus who was fighting Holocaust at the time and still he dismissed Jean with just a blink.

No one in history has ever went through Magnus' shields. So that's a joke. Oh yeah..the first appearance of the originals and Magneto but other than that? He's stopped Galactus from killing the heroes of the world with his shields. All of that Wolverine comedy has no merit. Magneto got blasted by Cyclops in the last 10 years? When? Because Magneto humilated Cyclops in the 70s and 80s. Made him worthless at the Illyana funeral. Treated him like a nobody during the Acolytes first appearance. So I wouldn't be too happy about Cyclops situations. Even Xorneto dispatched him. A mere pretender? That's sad.

Magneto beat Jean Grey with her Phoenix powers in Uncanny #112-113. Clean. Legit. No excuses. The superior mutant won. Psylocke tried to use her psi knife on Magneto during the Genosha fight in original Acolyte intro story and she got backlashed out of the fight. Left her almost in tears. Fabien Cortez was DESTROYED by Magneto in Dark Seduction #4. You'll never see him again.

All of that Jean mental blocking stuff is pure retcon. It never existed beforehand. She was never that powerful without the Phoenix entity.

LOL@ leaving Juggernaut in the fetal position. Jean Grey?! HAHAHA! Damn. I remember Jean being in complete fear of Juggernaut in Uncanny #334.

Yet Wolverine has slashed and gutted Magneto several times. And then a Magneto 'imposter' who had enough power to flip the world on its axis still got beheaded by Logan. Judging by the way the real one has fared against him, this one is no exception.

Jean Grey was not at full power during X-Men #43. She still had yet, to even begin to explore her abilities in full. She only started further pushing herself in Uncanny X-Men #353, when she told Scott that she was sick of holding herself back because of his fears, and that she wanted to be all she could be.
And once she did, we saw her markedly grow stronger and stronger, just as her omega status would attest to.

No one in history has gone through his shields? Yet Jean has. Xavier has. And as you mention in those original X-Men issues it happened. So you yourself right there contradicted your own statement.

Cyclops blasted his butt in X-Men #1 and sent him flying. He also ricchocted a blast and hit Magneto during Eve of Destruction. He also blasted the imposter Magneto(who by all rights has the same powers since he is more than capable of flipping the planet on its axis).

Everyone has been "humiliated" at one point. Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine, and YES even Magneto have been beaten. You're just so into this whole lord Magneto is your savior thing that you fail to accept when he has been humbled by these other characters.

Magneto only beat Jean in Uncanny X-Men 111-113 BECAUSE her powers were still growing, and her mind had automatically placed blocks to keep her powers growing at a normal rate. She had him on the ropes and was knocking him back into his machinery(through his shield no less) until her powers cut out on her because of said blocks.
It was when these same blocks were worn down by the Hellfire club that her powers grew exponentially, too fast too strong leading to Dark Phoenix.

How is it a retcon when in the original phoenix stories, they even mentioned the blocks and that Xavier and Moira always knew she had this power, just never thought she'd reach it? And like I said it was said that she had infinite mental powers back in the 60's during her first appearances as Marvel Girl. Her potential and power was one of the driving plots behind the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga. And now in recent times we've had Sublime say that her blood is phoenix blood and the ultimate mutation. AOA Sinister confirming what his tests have always shown about her power; she had the ability to change worlds, save an entire timeline. Pan says that when he touched her it was like the world opened up to him like a fractal landscape.
And in next week, Dark Beast says esentially the same things to Beast. Even in First Class, Bobby mentions she's the most powerful one of them and doesn't want to get on her bad side.

So she's had a history of these power developments ranging from her very first appearances all the way to the present. None of these comments really contradict eachother, merely reaffirming what most fans already knew about her potential and power.
And you do realize the phoenix entity is in itself a retcon, that has since been nullified right? So do you get to pick and choose which ones you like? :rolleyes:

Actually Jean wasn't in complete fear of Juggernaut in Uncanny 334. He was yelling at her, and she just stood there defiant. So you're wrong. Also, she had sent him running away before when he was fully powered and she was just Marvel Girl. So there's no surprise that she left a weaker Juggernaut in a fetal position, crying and still shaken hours later.

Her steady increase in mental pressure knocked out the Hulk.
She beat all of Cassandra Nova's traps, rescued Xavier and Emma, and ripped out Cassie herself and left her with no body to inhabit.
Did a similar thing with the very essence of Apocalyspe after she froze him in place telepathically.

[Brian M.]

Jean Grey > Magneto

Discussion over.

[Bart Simpson]

Nope, doesn't look like fear to me.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f72/NosDos/jeanjugg.jpg

[Brian M.]

Just like that issue where Jean punked Sabertooth.

She's a force of nature, much greater then magnetism.

Fiesty Redhead vs Old Man River

I guess the only thing Magneto really has over Jean is that he's killed less innocent people.

[Bart Simpson]

Just like that issue where Jean punked Sabertooth.

She's a force of nature, much greater then magnetism.

Fiesty Redhead vs Old Man River

I guess the only thing Magneto really has over Jean is that he's killed less innocent people.

Quoted for truth. Magneto says it himself in the X-Men movies, and it's pretty much true in the comics as well. With his magnetic powers he can control metal. With telekinesis, Jean can control everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5ogMMN7po0

Now THAT is FEAR. :evilsmile

[Brian M.]

Quoted for truth. Magneto says it himself in the X-Men movies, and it's pretty much true in the comics as well. With his magnetic powers he can control metal. With telekinesis, Jean can control everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5ogMMN7po0

Now THAT is FEAR. :evilsmile

Put those two in a battle against each other and Jean has Magneto licking the underside of his underwoos.

[Cain Marko]

Also, she had sent him running away before when he was fully powered and she was just Marvel Girl. So there's no surprise that she left a weaker Juggernaut in a fetal position, crying and still shaken hours later.

Jean Grey didn't send the Juggernaut running anywhere. Off the top of my head he has always defeated her plus the other X-Men combined when they fought. In the issue you're talking about the writer seemed to not know that Cain's helmet blocks tekepathy but her psi attack only gave him a headache. The Juggernaut then grabbed Angel and made Jean Grey yield. Through nothing to do with Jean Grey or the X-Men, the Juggernaut is teleported away.

[Bart Simpson]

Jean Grey didn't send the Juggernaut running anywhere Marvel Girl or otherwise. Off the top of my head he has always defeated her plus the other X-Men combined when they fought. In the issue you're talking about the writer seemed to not know that Cain's helmet blocks tekepathy but her psi attack only gave him a headache. The Juggernaut then grabbed Angel which made Jean Grey yield. Through nothing to do with Jean Grey or the X-Men, the Juggernaut is teleported away.

It did happen. It's a psychic attack that was "stabbing through his head like a knife." Not your run of the mill headache. Strong enough for Juggernaut to compare it to Xavier's. The writer didn't forget anything. Jean even says "If I can reach..." the writer knew full well about Jugg's defenses, but Jean's power was too much. Juggernaut says himself: "The pain is so GREAT, I can't stand it! Have to move... FAST!" It shows him running away from because he couldn't handle it.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f72/NosDos/jeanjug2.jpg

And here is where she owns him a second time, this time leaving his in a fetal position. I supposed he could have run away, but it's pretty hard to run when you're crumpled in a corner: http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f72/NosDos/Unlimited442.jpg

[Cain Marko]

It did happen. It's a psychic attack that was "stabbing through his head like a knife." Not your run of the mill headache. Strong enough for Juggernaut to compare it to Xavier's. The writer didn't forget anything.


Except of course that Xavier's was blocked by the helmet. So the comparison only makes sense if he's speaking of Xavier's assault which he leveled Cain with after Cain's helmet had been removed. Not to mention that no one there(including Juggernaut) seemed to find it noteworthy that a psi attack was hurting him with his helmet on when everyone there would know that shouldn't happen. So yes, I think the evidence suggests the writer didn't know. But it doesn't really matter since it didn't stop him anyway.


Juggernaut says himself: "The pain is so GREAT, I can't stand it! Have to move... FAST!" It shows him running away from because he couldn't handle it.


No, it doesn't. It just shows him holding his temples before he grabs Angel. I assume you're just going by an editted scan and have not actually read the book? Because as can be plainly seen on that page the Juggernaut has neither run away nor fallen. He's already beaten the entire team including Jean Grey earlier in the issue and would likely would have killed them were he not teleported away before he could defeat them again.

[Bart Simpson]

Except of course that Xavier's was blocked by the helmet. So the comparison only makes sense if he's speaking of Xavier's assault which he leveled after his helmet had been removed. Not to mention that no one there(including Juggernaut) seemed to find it unusual at all that a psi attack was hurting him with his helmet on. So yes, I think the evidence suggests the writer didn't know. But it doesn't really matter since it didn't stop him anyway.





No, it doesn't. It just shows him holding his temples before he grabs Angel. I assume you're just going by an editted scan and have not actually read the book? Because as can be plainly seen on that page the Juggernaut has neither run away nor fallen. He's already beaten the entire team including Jean Grey earlier in the issue almost certainly would have killed them were he not teleported away before he could defeat them again.

Jean is unsure if the attack will work in her "if I can reach..." which means that she knows full well it might not have rached because of his helmet. But it did work and continued to work till he grabbed Angel. Psylocke has also effected Juggernaut through his helmet, so Jean doing it shouldn't come as a surprise.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f72/NosDos/JuggernautPunch.jpg
+
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f72/NosDos/nxm04-1.jpg
=
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f72/NosDos/crumpledbaby.jpg

[Cain Marko]

Jean is unsure if the attack will work in her "if I can reach..." which means that she knows full well it might not have because of his helmet.

She was unsure because she was very new with the power and didn't know if she could do a stunt like that yet. For further proof, we've seen a more powerful Jean Grey unable to go through the Juggernaut's helmet.

[Bart Simpson]

She was unsure because she was very new with the power and didn't know if she could do a stunt like that yet. For further proof, we've seen a more powerful Jean Grey unable to go through the Juggernaut's helmet.

She didn't know if she could reach through his helmet, but turns out she could.

The most recent encounter between the two also showed she was able to go through with ease.

And the time in Uncanny 334, she didn't try a psychic attack, she used telekinesis, so we won't know what would have happened. But we've already seen twice when she has used telepathy and gotten through.

[streator]

And here is where she owns him a second time, this time leaving his in a fetal position. I supposed he could have run away, but it's pretty hard to run when you're crumpled in a corner: http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f72/NosDos/Unlimited442.jpg

i was going to ask where this image was from but then i remembered: austen's god-awful peta x-men unlimited issue 44.

[Bart Simpson]

i was going to ask where this image was from but then i remembered: austen's god-awful peta x-men unlimited issue 44.

Yep it's where it was from. It wasn't that bad. A masterpeice compared to Draco.

[Cain Marko]

There most recent encounter between the other two showed otherwise.

Actually it didn't. Cain was no longer the Juggernaut at that time.

[Bart Simpson]

Actually it didn't. Cain was no longer the Juggernaut at that time.

I'll just let the pics do the talking. And they show her penetrating his helmet. :D
She effected him through his helmet, twice. Psylocke has even done it.

[Cain Marko]

I'll just let the pics do the talking.

Alright. Context is way overrated anyway. Just so long as we can all agree that, as shown in the pic, Jean Grey is so helpless against the Juggernaut that she can only bow and hope to appease him with honey-baked ham.

http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing2/Juggy55.txt

[Bart Simpson]

Alright. Context is way overrated anyway. Just so long as we can all agree that, as shown in the pic, Jean Grey is so helpless against the Juggernaut that she can only bow and hope to appease him with honey-baked ham.

http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing2/Juggy55.txt

i remember that dream sequence, the pictures i posted were not. :p

i know you don't like that jean was able to do what she did, but you can't just ignore it

[Slung]

I think this picture is pretty cool of Jean and Juggs.http://hem2.passagen.se/haggblom/pics/jea8.jpg

[Cain Marko]

i remember that dream sequence, the pictures i posted were not. :p


But your description of what's happening in them was.


i know you don't like that jean was able to do what she did, but you can't just ignore it

Jean was never able to do much of anything against the Juggernaut but get beaten or retreat. And I certainly don't care about her taking Cain out after he'd lost the Juggernaut power. Everybody does that.

[Bart Simpson]

But your description of what's happening in them was.



Jean was never able to do much of anything against the Juggernaut but get beaten or retreat. And I certainly don't care about her taking Cain out after he'd lost the Juggernaut power. Everybody does that.

Except make him reel in pain, so much that he himself says "I gotta move...fast!" meaning he can't take it for very long. You tried to make it seem like it was some common headache. Why would he need to move and move fast if he was invulnerable to her attack? Simple answer: He isn't.

[Cain Marko]

I never said he was invulnerable to her attack. I pointed out that you were making up Cain running away. The Juggernaut overmatched her in that issue as he always does. And it's fairly evident by the context that the writer wasn't treating the helmet as a psi blocker.

[Bart Simpson]

I never said he was invulnerable to her attack. I pointed out that you were making up Cain running away. The Juggernaut overmatched her in that issue as he always does. And it's fairly clear by the context that the writer wasn't treating the helmet as a psi blocker.

It was conisdered a psi-blocker when Jean wondered if she could "reach" him alluding to the fact that before she couldn't. But now she could.
He was at full power and she managed to penetrate his helmet. That's a fact.

[Cain Marko]

It was conisdered a psi-blocker when Jean wondered if she could "reach" him alluding to the fact that before she couldn't. But now she could.

That's obviously not the case since she never had telepathic abilities like that yet in previous encounters so there was no "before" for her to judge it by. Her uncertainty was due to not having tried it before. But again, it's moot point since she couldn't stop him either way. If you want to believe that Marvel Girl was a more powerful and effective telepath than Xavier that's fine. Regardless of your interpretation of the story the fact remains that Jean Grey never made Juggernaut run. And she was beaten alongside the rest of her teammates when she tried to fight him.

[Brian M.]

Jean Grey > Everyone else

[Pach!]

Jean Grey > Everyone else

Cyclops???

[Brian M.]

Cyclops???

She'd rip him a new one. You've seen the redheaded beauty hold back his blasts...I'm sure in the beginning of their relationship she held back a few other blasts too. She's the best there is. Now Cyclops + Jean Grey >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone else.

[Pach!]

She'd rip him a new one. You've seen the redheaded beauty hold back his blasts...I'm sure in the beginning of their relationship she held back a few other blasts too. She's the best there is. Now Cyclops + Jean Grey >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone else.

I thought you were talking about your favorite characters.

[Brian M.]

I thought you were talking about your favorite characters.

Powerwise.

[Bart Simpson]

That's obviously not the case since she never had telepathic abilities like that yet in previous encounters so there was no "before" for her to judge it by. Her uncertainty was due to not having tried it before. But again, it's moot point since she couldn't stop him either way. If you want to believe that Marvel Girl was a more powerful and effective telepath than Xavier that's fine. Regardless of your interpretation of the story the fact remains that Jean Grey never made Juggernaut run. And she was beaten alongside the rest of her teammates when she tried to fight him.

She doesn't need telepathic powers to know that Juggernaut's helmet offered some sort of protection. She's fought him before, so she knew that it would be tough to reach him. Hence her doubt. Actually he was all disoriented/wobbly and Jean only stopped because he had managed to get a hold of an unconcious Angel and threatened to harm him if the attack didn't stop. I mistakenly remembered him running away, but that doesn't change the fact that a) she got through b) she would have continued and the only reason she stopped was because Juggernaut had got a hold of Angel.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Quoted for truth. Magneto says it himself in the X-Men movies, and it's pretty much true in the comics as well. With his magnetic powers he can control metal. With telekinesis, Jean can control everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5ogMMN7po0

Now THAT is FEAR. :evilsmile

Movie definitions apply to canon? :D. This is a Jean mark thread. That comment proves it above all else. Never have I heard something more ridiculous. Magneto has defeated her even with her improved Phoenix powers and that's on the record. NOt to mention the fake Magneto getting ridding of her to the point where she hasn't been seen since except some follow up story of no consequence.

Magneto is a force of nature. He can create wormholes in his latest incarnation. He had the entire earth section of Marvel at his behest at the end of House of M and only the unstoppable Princess Wanda saved them all from his reckoning. Jean Grey? She has no displays of greatness. Rachel Summers has at least fought Galactus on her own.

Put those two in a battle against each other and Jean has Magneto licking the underside of his underwoos.

Put them against each other?! They've been fighting in canon for over 44 years and Magneto beat her with her Phoenix ability CLEAN. Legit. No excuses. Mutant to mutant in Uncanny #112-113. Magneto rendered her USELESS in Uncanny #304. Xorneto punked her out in New X-Men #150 in spectacular fashion. Hasn't been since on earth since. Jean needs to be the equal of Exodus or Sinister first before she can hang with the icons. Hell, above that, when she gets to the Storm level, send me a email. At least there will be a suitable debate.

[Brian M.]

HAHAHA

Magneto is a punk when it comes to Phoenix.

[Bart Simpson]

I never tried to use the movie as canon, merely showed you what fear was. Movie Magneto had fear. Jean fighting Juggernaut did not show fear like you "remembered". And what is said is true in comics as well. Magnetism can control metal by definition. Telekinesis can control ANYTHING.

Let's see... Jean didn't begin to push herself until UXM 354. By Uncanny 393, she was already able to make Wolverine's pin cushion see whatever she chose for him to see and was instrumental in his downfall yet again...against a team of newbie X-Men no less.

And Jean is beyond any of the people you mentioned. At her most powerful that we've seen she held the entire universe in her hands and got to decide it's fate. THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE and an entire
timeline, little logan's pin cushion eric lensherr included.

You fail to mention that Jean's psychic breakers kicked in when they fought in Uncanny 111-113. She had him on the ropes otherwise. Despite his shields that you claim no one can do anything about, she threw him across the room into his own machinery.

And even before the the white phoenix state, she had played Magneto for a fool, froze and ripped out Apocalyspe, tore out Cassie Nova, penetrated Juggernaut's helmet. None are jokes. Yet you fail to recognize, because your're too busy praying to Magneto to notice or decide to just ignore it. And it's not just Wolverine and Jean who've landed hits on him. Cyclops successfully blasted him at least 3 times now.

You seriously think Magneto stands a chance against Jean as the White Phoenix?!? He's only fought circuit breakered versions of her or versions that held back before.

Last time I read, Sinister, Dark Beast, Sublime, Pan, Xavier, Moira, Death, freaking Eternity have talked about Jean's power and potential. She's beyond mutation...the ultimate mutation. Get over it.

[Faded]

LOL. Risque could implode every single little trick that flies her way.

She's a boss. Uhh.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I never tried to use the movie as canon, merely showed you what fear was. Movie Magneto had fear. Jean fighting Juggernaut did not show fear like you "remembered". And what is said is true in comics as well. Magnetism can control metal by definition. Telekinesis can control ANYTHING.

Let's see... Jean didn't begin to push herself until UXM 354. By Uncanny 393, she was already able to make Wolverine's pin cushion see whatever she chose for him to see and was instrumental in his downfall yet again...against a team of newbie X-Men no less.

And Jean is beyond any of the people you mentioned. At her most powerful that we've seen she held the entire universe in her hands and got to decide it's fate. THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE and an entire
timeline, little logan's pin cushion eric lensherr included.

You fail to mention that Jean's psychic breakers kicked in when they fought in Uncanny 111-113. She had him on the ropes otherwise. Despite his shields that you claim no one can do anything about, she threw him across the room into his own machinery.

And even before the the white phoenix state, she had played Magneto for a fool, froze and ripped out Apocalyspe, tore out Cassie Nova, penetrated Juggernaut's helmet. None are jokes. Yet you fail to recognize, because your're too busy praying to Magneto to notice or decide to just ignore it. And it's not just Wolverine and Jean who've landed hits on him. Cyclops successfully blasted him at least 3 times now.

You seriously think Magneto stands a chance against Jean as the White Phoenix?!? He's only fought circuit breakered versions of her or versions that held back before.

Last time I read, Sinister, Dark Beast, Sublime, Pan, Xavier, Moira, Death, freaking Eternity have talked about Jean's power and potential. She's beyond mutation...the ultimate mutation. Get over it.

Movie Magneto had fear? Magneto in comics has fear too. That's how this whole thing started. His dread of mutants going down the same path his family and the Holocaust victims did. That haunts Magneto more than anything in his life.

Magnetism is a fundamental force of nature. He's MUCH, MUCH more superior to any movie version you are hooked to. Magneto manipulates iron in blood, wormholes, has thrown the whole EM field off center, EMP the whole planet at once, survive anything Thor can throw at him, etc. Yet you keep talking about "metal manipulation". As if that that's the total sum of his abilities. Yeah right.

Fox animated Jean Grey would go weak and lose her sense everytime she used her powers. She couldn't even hold up the blackbird. That's how weak she was. She was probably the most useless character of the whole run. Gambit, who's a COMPLETE joke, was even more dangerous than her.

Jean lost in Uncanny X-Men #112-113. Period. It's her what she does. Gets build up and lose when it counts.

Jean has never decided the Silver Surfer's fate in her life. Period. That was a X-Men contained storyline that didn't even effect the Punisher at best. Hell, the top X-villians barely bring it up. You never hear Reed, Doom, or Pym mention it as if it's significant but they sure as hell know who Magneto and Onslaught are and what thread they pose to the world at large.

Jean Grey has never beat Apocalypse by herself. EVER. Not on the TV shows. Comics. Anything. Cable was the one that got the last shot against him in that Cyclops mini series. Before that, Apoclaypse had basically won in the Twelve story if not for Nate Grey and the weakened Magneto screwing around with that machinery.

Jean Grey as the White Phoenix is a theory. A hope. She has fought no one. She has beat no one of note. She is not even worth Thor's time. Not even considered by Thanos. Not ever spoken of by Galactus or his ilk. So..I'll DEFINITELY take the brilliant Magneto over anything Jean Grey can muster up. Hell, she can't even stop Xorneto for goodness sakes.:evilsmile :D This stuff is hilarious.

Sublime SUCKS. Pan is nothing. Sinister in the 616 reality speaks higher of Cable, Cyclops, Nate Grey, and even Gambit before Jean Grey. She was only useful for him because she was the perfect match for a Scott Summers combination. End of story. If Jean was that all powerful, Sinister would make it his life goal to control and use her to further his plans, as he did with Stryfe, Cable, Havok,, Madelyne Pryor, Nate Grey, and Cyclops.

[Pro]

I'll DEFINITELY take the brilliant Magneto over anything Jean Grey can muster up.

When i see Magneto kill off an entire timeline and recreate a new one to take its place i might be inclined to take your Magneto delusion as something more than an unhealthy obsession bordering on outright creepy.

[Cain Marko]

I mistakenly remembered him running away, but that doesn't change the fact that a) she got through b) she would have continued and the only reason she stopped was because Juggernaut had got a hold of Angel.


Grabbing Angel was only one option. He had other means to stop Jean even from a distance. As was shown (http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing3/fire.jpg) in the story(which I assume you've not actually read ;)). The Juggernaut being teleported away was the only thing that stopped him from taking Jean Grey and the rest of the team out again. Much like with the "second owning of Juggernaut" scan where you conveniently left out that Cain didn't have the power of the Juggernaut, context matters.



You fail to mention that Jean's psychic breakers kicked in when they fought in Uncanny 111-113. She had him on the ropes otherwise. Despite his shields that you claim no one can do anything about, she threw him across the room into his own machinery.

...until he began drawing on power from the Earth itself to match hers. At which point Magneto, by her own admission, made her realize for the first time since becoming Phoenix that her power wasn't unlimited as she'd previously thought. And much to her shock she found that she was unable to surpass Magneto's power when he opened up. Magneto then siphoned her energy off and defeated her.

Naturally the full blown Phoenix is beyond Magneto but it's not like Jean walked around like that on an average day. Under typical circumstances Magneto was able to handle Jean just fine.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

When i see Magneto kill off an entire timeline and recreate a new one to take its place i might be inclined to take your Magneto delusion as something more than an unhealthy obsession bordering on outright creepy.

Jean Grey kill an entire timeline? Thank goodness the Morrison crap was retconned out. She can't even kill Sabretooth.

[Pro]

Thank goodness the Morrison crap was retconned out.

It must be nice to live in your very own bubble of reality.

[Bart Simpson]

Grabbing Angel was only one option. He had other means to stop Jean even from a distance. As was shown (http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing3/fire.jpg) in the story(which I assume you've not actually read ;)). The Juggernaut being teleported away was the only thing that stopped him from taking Jean Grey and the rest of the team out again. Much like with the "second owning of Juggernaut" scan where you conveniently left out that Cain didn't have the power of the Juggernaut, context matters.




...until he began drawing on power from the Earth itself to match hers. At which point Magneto, by her own admission, made her realize for the first time since becoming Phoenix that her power wasn't unlimited as she'd previously thought. And much to her shock she found that she was unable to surpass Magneto's power when he opened up. Magneto then siphoned her energy off and defeated her.

Naturally the full blown Phoenix is beyond Magneto but it's not like Jean walked around like that on an average day. Under typical circumstances Magneto was able to handle Jean just fine.

I read the story. In fact, Juggernaut was still being effected by the blast and it so happened Angel was near him that he was able to grab him and use him as a bargaining chip. He was too in pain to use those energy globules(lol).

And if a younger Jean Grey in the 60's could get through a fully powered Juggernaut's helmet, then what makes you think if the Juggernaut was fully powered in that Unlimited Issue he'd stand any chance against who Jean had only grown in experience and power by then.

She admits herself she was still limited. This is due to the psychic circuit breakers her mind automatically created. When they wore down, we saw her eating stars.

[Bart Simpson]

Jean Grey kill an entire timeline? Thank goodness the Morrison crap was retconned out. She can't even kill Sabretooth.

Morrison's "crap" (according to you) hasn't been retconned out. It was Jean's actions of cutting away a timeline and creating a new one that pushed things from the Here Comes Tomorrow devestation to the timeline we see now and that we continue to see in the books every month.

Don't even try and bring up Sabretooth. Go read X-Men #28 (he doesn't manage to lay a finger on her, and she rakes him with his own claws, and throws him around like a rag doll) and the Sabretooth Special (she easily was snapping bones in his body and sending him flying).


Sublime SUCKS. Pan is nothing. Sinister in the 616 reality speaks higher of Cable, Cyclops, Nate Grey, and even Gambit before Jean Grey. She was only useful for him because she was the perfect match for a Scott Summers combination. End of story. If Jean was that all powerful, Sinister would make it his life goal to control and use her to further his plans, as he did with Stryfe, Cable, Havok,, Madelyne Pryor, Nate Grey, and Cyclops.

Sublime has been around for billions upon billions of years. He knows what he's talking about.
If anything Sinister in the AOA had more experience since he didn't have to work in secret, and he was able to run full tests on Jean and probably millions+ of other mutants of his own accord. Something he couldn't do in the normal universe because she was already under the care of Xavier. And Xavier who WAS able to do tests on her found out about her potential and confirmed her as omega. The only story that is ending here is your fan fiction.
Actually Dark Beast who works for AOA Sinister says Nate Grey is only the way he is because he shares Jean's morphology.
It's pretty hard to control someone who is already able to make their own decisions, compared to a baby that you can teach and mold how you want them to be. Jean was already full grown by the time Sinister would have found out about her.

And I love how you leave out what Death and Eternity told her basically confirms what everyone else ie Xavier, Sinister, Moira, Pan, Dark Beast, Sublime, etc has already been saying.

[Daithi]

Morrison's "crap" (according to you) hasn't been retconned out. It was Jean's actions of cutting away a timeline and creating a new one that pushed things from the Here Comes Tomorrow devestation to the timeline we see now and that we continue to see in the books every month.

You mean the HoM devastation instead?

[Bart Simpson]

You mean the HoM devastation instead?

HOM is not as bad as Here Comes Tomorrow where all the humans had been wiped out and Sublime Beast had the world in his hands. Here Comes Tomorrow was like AOA part 2 and only an underground resistance of X-Men (Tito, Tom and his sentinel, Wolverine, Mermax, etc) stood in his way. In fact by the end he had already killed everyone at the Institue and had killed Tito, Wolveirne, Mermax etc as well.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Morrison's "crap" (according to you) hasn't been retconned out. It was Jean's actions of cutting away a timeline and creating a new one that pushed things from the Here Comes Tomorrow devestation to the timeline we see now and that we continue to see in the books every month.

Don't even try and bring up Sabretooth. Go read X-Men #28 (he doesn't manage to lay a finger on her, and she rakes him with his own claws, and throws him around like a rag doll) and the Sabretooth Special (she easily was snapping bones in his body and sending him flying).



Sublime has been around for billions upon billions of years. He knows what he's talking about.
If anything Sinister in the AOA had more experience since he didn't have to work in secret, and he was able to run full tests on Jean and probably millions+ of other mutants of his own accord. Something he couldn't do in the normal universe because she was already under the care of Xavier. And Xavier who WAS able to do tests on her found out about her potential and confirmed her as omega. The only story that is ending here is your fan fiction.
Actually Dark Beast who works for AOA Sinister says Nate Grey is only the way he is because he shares Jean's morphology.
It's pretty hard to control someone who is already able to make their own decisions, compared to a baby that you can teach and mold how you want them to be. Jean was already full grown by the time Sinister would have found out about her.

And I love how you leave out what Death and Eternity told her basically confirms what everyone else ie Xavier, Sinister, Moira, Pan, Dark Beast, Sublime, etc has already been saying.


Sublime is a retcon character. He hasn't been around that long. Hell, he'll probably never be seen again.

Nate Grey is the way he is because Sinister created him with Jean and Cyclops' DNA. We knew that back in 1995. Where's the big reveletion? Surely you're not implying that Dark Beast knows more than the creator?

[Daithi]

HOM is not as bad as Here Comes Tomorrow where all the humans had been wiped out and Sublime Beast had the world in his hands. Here Comes Tomorrow was like AOA part 2 and only an underground resistance of X-Men (Tito, Tom and his sentinel, Wolverine, Mermax, etc) stood in his way. In fact by the end he had already killed everyone at the Institue and had killed Tito, Wolveirne, Mermax etc as well.

Okay but HCT happened 150 years in the future and post HoM world is quite close to it already. Jean could pop up and fix everything but I doubt the writers will take the easy deus ex machina route.

[Bart Simpson]

Okay but HCT happened 150 years in the future and post HoM world is quite close to it already. Jean could pop up and fix everything but I doubt the writers will take the easy deus ex machina route.

Not even close to it. You're exaggerating a little aren't you? HCT the entire human race had already gone extinct. It was an Apocalyptic future. Dark Beast had successfully taken over by New 154. All the other heroes like the Avengers and FF were dead. We're no where close to that level of destruction or death.

[Bart Simpson]

Sublime is a retcon character. He hasn't been around that long. Hell, he'll probably never be seen again.

Nate Grey is the way he is because Sinister created him with Jean and Cyclops' DNA. We knew that back in 1995. Where's the big reveletion? Surely you're not implying that Dark Beast knows more than the creator?


How is Sublime a retcon character? What exactly did he retcon? Because if you are referring to Jean's potential and power, he's not the first nor the last to mention it.

He's that powerful because he has her morphology therefore her powers. Jean was something unique till they managed to duplicate her powers using her blood, her cells. Similar to what Sublime did with himself in HCT. Cyclops wasn't needed then.

[Daithi]

Not even close to it. You're exaggerating a little aren't you? HCT the entire human race had already gone extinct. It was an Apocalyptic future. Dark Beast had successfully taken over by New 154.


Compared to now with the mutant race being on the verge of extinction and unless a "cure" is found would mostly likely be extinct in 150 years. It's only being what 2 years max since the end of New X-Men and this has happened already.


All the other heroes like the Avengers and FF were dead. We're no where close to that level of destruction or death.

Yes it happened 150 years into the future. The current Avengers and F4 (bar one or two) would be dead anyway.

I'm not saying it's identical but it's hardly a huge leap from HCT.

[Bart Simpson]

Compared to now with the mutant race being on the verge of extinction and unless a "cure" is found would mostly likely be extinct in 150 years. It's only being what 2 years max since the end of New X-Men and this has happened already.



Yes it happened 150 years into the future. The current Avengers and F4 (bar one or two) would be dead anyway.

I'm not saying it's identical but it's hardly a huge leap from HCT.

A possible end of the world (which I doubt since it's a given some sort of reversal or cure will happen evenutally) is better than the end of the world.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

How is Sublime a retcon character? What exactly did he retcon? Because if you are referring to Jean's potential and power, he's not the first nor the last to mention it.

He's that powerful because he has her morphology therefore her powers. Jean was something unique till they managed to duplicate her powers using her blood, her cells. Similar to what Sublime did with himself in HCT. Cyclops wasn't needed then.

He's a retcon character. He never meant nothing until it was time to explain away Xorneto's actions. Jean's potential doesn't matter. She's never been a sole reason for ending a top threat of any sort. There's alot of talk of what her retcon powers can do but she never does nothing.

[Bart Simpson]

He's a retcon character. He never meant nothing until it was time to explain away Xorneto's actions. Jean's potential doesn't matter. She's never been a sole reason for ending a top threat of any sort. There's alot of talk of what her retcon powers can do but she never does nothing.

Sublime was one of the main plot points of Morrison's run, not just some side to explain Xorneto's actions. He was behind Kick and the U-Men. Like I said, back when Jean was Marvel Girl she was already said to have infinite mental powers so that's not a retcon either.
She does nothing? In my previous posts I listed plenty of stuff she has done to mega baddies and heck even amputate an entire timeline and create a new one. You seem to be the one who is in denial.

::YAWN:: just admit you are defeated little speck.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

When she was Marvel Girl "she was said to have infinite mental powers?" HAHAHAHA. Where was this ability while Stryfe was kicking her ass? Or when Genesis knocked her out and put her in a TK resistent cage? Or when Exodus treated her like garbage in two storylines?

[Bart Simpson]

When she was Marvel Girl "she was said to have infinite mental powers?" HAHAHAHA. Where was this ability while Stryfe was kicking her ass? Or when Genesis knocked her out and put her in a TK resistent cage? Or when Exodus treated her like garbage in two storylines?


Go read the original issues, unless it's you and your Magneto worship that you are laughing it? It sucks to be wrong doesn't it? :D :evilsmile I could easily say, if Magneto is so great, why the hell does he keep getting gutted and slashed by a man of metal? or totally made a fool of by Jean and her team of newbie X-Men? or when he got his @$$ blasted by Cyke at least 3 times now? or when Storm had him on the ropes with her tornado? or when Xavier mindwiped his @$$.

As for the Genesis/Sinister incident from the Annual, She was ambushed. And she still overloaded the cage and broke free...it was deemed impossible by Sinister but she did it.

Like I said she didn't fully explore these powers till much later than her Marvel Girl days.

You're basically arguing with established fact. You have nothing, but personal bias against fact which is why this is so fun.

Full powered Jean >>>>>> full powered Magneto. get over it.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Wrong about what, my friend. Wolverine can't even fight the Hulk by himself. Without the X-Men, Wolverine would of dead back in Uncanny #150 or even X-Men #25. He's no match for anyone significant. He's PIS protected. That's all. What you saw happened to Wolverine in WWH would NEVER happen to Magneto though. And that's what counts. And if anyone got any drop on Magneto, it was Xavier. Which is bad writing at it's worst anyway since Magneto has canceled out his and Jean's powers with ease. Which is why he came back stronger than ever by 2004 and Jean was finished and Xavier could do nothing but smile.

Storm has been embarrassed by Magneto since the 70s and that's putting it politely. In Magneto War, he absorbed her powers and flung her away like a insect. Cyclops was left crying at the end of Planet X after being owned by Xorneto.

And after Jean broke free from the cage, Sinister quickly reminded her and Beast that she stood no chance so she better watch her next step and then when it was over, he told them to leave his presence and save their battle indications for another day.

All of this comedy of "arguing against fact". That's in your head. Jean is gone. Period. Rachel isn't. Nate Grey is probably coming back. There are "long term plans for Magneto" as revealed by Mike Carey, Brubaker, Nick Lowe, and Axel Alonso. Where's Jean? WHERE IS SHE?! She's useless and gone. It's the way it should be right now. Storm is the top X-female in history and Magneto is being saved for Uncanny #500 after this Messiah Complex story wraps up. Carey and Brubaker are doing EXCELLENT work right now. Exodus, Dark Beast, and Sinister will be headlining until the MVP of the X-Verse is back on top. I love it. Couldn't have worked out any better.

[Bart Simpson]

Wrong about what, my friend. Wolverine can't even fight the Hulk by himself. Without the X-Men, Wolverine would of dead back in Uncanny #150 or even X-Men #25. He's no match for anyone significant. He's PIS protected. That's all. What you saw happened to Wolverine in WWH would NEVER happen to Magneto though. And that's what counts. And if anyone got any drop on Magneto, it was Xavier. Which is bad writing at it's worst anyway since Magneto has canceled out his and Jean's powers with ease. Which is why he came back stronger than ever by 2004 and Jean was finished and Xavier could do nothing but smile

Storm has been embarrassed by Magneto since the 70s and that's putting it politely. In Magneto War, he absorbed her powers and flung her away like a insect. Cyclops was left crying at the end of Planet X after being owned by Xorneto.

And after Jean broke free from the cage, Sinister quickly reminded her and Beast that she stood no chance so she better watch her next step and then when it was over, he told them to leave his presence and save their battle indications for another day.

All of this comedy of "arguing against fact". That's in your head. Jean is gone. Period. Rachel isn't. Nate Grey is probably coming back. There are "long term plans for Magneto" as revealed by Mike Carey, Brubaker, Nick Lowe, and Axel Alonso. Where's Jean? WHERE IS SHE?! She's useless and gone. It's the way it should be right now. Storm is the top X-female in history and Magneto is being saved for Uncanny #500 after this Messiah Complex story wraps up. Carey and Brubaker are doing EXCELLENT work right now. Exodus, Dark Beast, and Sinister will be headlining until the MVP of the X-Verse is back on top. I love it. Couldn't have worked out any better.

There's one thing you don't seem to get. Whether you like it or not, Wolverine has managed to slash or gut Magneto more times than one can count. Just shows how good Wolverine is, even against the supposed Master of Magnetisim. Jean not even at full powered made Magneto believe and see what she wanted. That's so awesome. Magneto was only able to cancel their powers before because he got the drop on them. Yet Jean and Storm were still able to use their powers to hold up asteroid M. It depends on who strikes first because Jean can stop powers telepathically or telekinetically.

Sinister mentioned no such thing. I have the issue. Maybe you get your head checked for Alzheimer's. You said Jean showed fear when she fought Juggernaut which she didn't. Now you say Sinister quickly dismissed her which he didn't.

This has nothing to do with Rachel or Nate. I don't care if there are long term plans for Nate or Magneto or whoever else. I'm not arguing that Carey or Brubaker are both doing a good job. Don't try and stir up the water and change the subject.

This is about the fact that you fail to recognize Jean's abilities despite all things that have been said AND shown since her very first appearances and continue to be said or shown despite her being gone.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

It's not about liking it. It's the fact that it took the X-Men to turn Magneto's powers off for that to happen. Period. Wolverine has never in his HISTORY fought Magneto straight up without getting owned. Didn't you read House of M #7-8? Magneto kicked all of their asses in #7 and AFTER Wanda turned his powers off, that's when they jump him and start talking tough. That's the difference between greatness and someone being overrated in nature.

Sinister told Jean and Beast to get out of his mansion. He also told Jean "to read the women's mind and to do it because he always get his way in the end." There was no fear in Sinister's voice or depiction. He was in control of the situation entirely. Genesis fled and it was Jean and Beast leaving, not Sinister, before the mansion was blown to pieces. That's not memory issues. That's something called "Canon".

I brought up Nate and Rachel because we've heard their names more than Jean. It was either Carey in X-Position or Quesada in the WWC X panel who just recently dismissed any possibility of a Jean comeback.

I'm not neglecting anything about Jean. She's never beat any name by herself. She's never beat any cosmic level threat on her own. It's all Grant Morrison retcon storytelling that ended when he was dropped. They did that mini series but long term ramifications came from it? Nothing. Nothing at all. Storm is the TOP women from the X-world now...she's in Black Panther, FF, and Uncanny. Jean is nowhere to be seen. Rachel will be back in the spotlight before she will and that's just the way it is. I'm sorry.

[Bart Simpson]

It's not about liking it. It's the fact that it took the X-Men to turn Magneto's powers off for that to happen. Period. Wolverine has never in his HISTORY fought Magneto straight up without getting owned. Didn't you read House of M #7-8? Magneto kicked all of their asses in #7 and AFTER Wanda turned his powers off, that's when they jump him and start talking tough. That's the difference between greatness and someone being overrated in nature.

Sinister told Jean and Beast to get out of his mansion. He also told Jean "to read the women's mind and to do it because he always get his way in the end." There was no fear in Sinister's voice or depiction. He was in control of the situation entirely. Genesis fled and it was Jean and Beast leaving, not Sinister, before the mansion was blown to pieces. That's not memory issues. That's something called "Canon".

I brought up Nate and Rachel because we've heard their names more than Jean. It was either Carey in X-Position or Quesada in the WWC X panel who just recently dismissed any possibility of a Jean comeback.

I'm not neglecting anything about Jean. She's never beat any name by herself. She's never beat any cosmic level threat on her own. It's all Grant Morrison retcon storytelling that ended when he was dropped. They did that mini series but long term ramifications came from it? Nothing. Nothing at all. Storm is the TOP women from the X-world now...she's in Black Panther, FF, and Uncanny. Jean is nowhere to be seen. Rachel will be back in the spotlight before she will and that's just the way it is. I'm sorry.

X-Men #25. Magneto still had his full powers and Wolverine slashed him pretty good.

I never said Sinister had fear. wtf. You made it seem like sinister gave some ultimatum to Jean and Beast, which he did not. Their fight that day was with Genesis, and it was done. It was Sinister's mansion, so why would they bother staying? Jean and Hank don't go around picking fights just because.

X-Man's name more than Jean? Jean's name has been asked and mentioned in several X-Positions now and Joe Q's cup of Joe several times. Her name is continually mentioned in the x-books, and just this week her powers were explained again in the Endangered series back ups, matching perfectly with what was written before about her being the ultimate mutation. We get to see Jean in Ultimate X-Men and First Class. Where is X-Man? A couple of panels after like 6 years away? Is self dellusion as fun for you as it is for me reading about it?

I'd say amputating a universe and growing a new one is a pretty cosmic feat. And hate to break it to you, but the impacts of Here Come Tomorrow are still being felt, because if Jean had not done what she did, we wouldn't be seeing what we are seeing today. So it's hardly been retconned out.

Good for Rachel, good for Storm. But I never said anything about Jean being the top x-woman nor did I say I expected to see her come back this year. Nice effort on trying to change the subject again though.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

X-Men #25..Magneto was multitasking fighting Jean/Xavier's mind attack, Rogue and Gambit, Quicksilver trying to get tough, and THEN Wolverine jumped him from the back. Which of course he paid for in spades to the point of him leaving the X-Mansion and leaving Jubilee in tears.

Sinister SAID "Whatever battles that lie ahead, X-Men, there is none to be fought here tonight." Beast touched his shoulder and they left. Even though he was behind the Mutant Massacre and has done UNTOLD amounts of true villiany, the heroes left and Sinister went on with his business like always.
LOL @ Jean and Hank don't go around picking fights just because. Damn, Bart, you have no IDEA how hard I'm laughing at that one. Beast..Jean..YOU'RE HEROES...get the job done and stop letting villians walk away from situations. Goodness gracious. Never seen anything like it.

Dark Beast mentioned Nate on panel and that's more than anything Jean related in who knows when. Carey has answered about him over and over again. And a couple of panels after 6 years? Go pick up Excalibur #5 where Chris Claremont answers my letter about Nate Grey and it gets printed to consideration. That's not delusion. That's FACT and on the record.

There is no impact from Here Comes Tommorrow. You make it sound like she's changed the world on the Wanda Maximoff level. She decimated mutantkind and didn't even pay for it. Jean? She hasn't been seen in WHO KNOWS WHEN. I don't get this odd commentary about her affecting universes when no one ever speaks of it. It's all Morrision dribble. If she's Silver Surfer-like, she would of been back at least 2 years ago. It's been 4 years and growing now.

[dotdotdot]

you know to everyone else this extreme pro-magneto in all ways all the time stance looks incredibly retarded, yes?

[dotdotdot]

There is no impact from Here Comes Tommorrow. You make it sound like she's changed the world on the Wanda Maximoff level. She decimated mutantkind and didn't even pay for it. Jean? She hasn't been seen in WHO KNOWS WHEN. I don't get this odd commentary about her affecting universes when no one ever speaks of it. It's all Morrision dribble. If she's Silver Surfer-like, she would of been back at least 2 years ago. It's been 4 years and growing now.

the entire reboot is hct's impact. scott would have left the xmen............even if you don't buy that, hct is where scott decides (is compelled) to stay with emma and rebuild/lead the school.
also, do you know get morrison? dribble? read more of his stuff, there's no way you'll hate it all.

[Valeria Kementari]

There is no impact from Here Comes Tommorrow. You make it sound like she's changed the world on the Wanda Maximoff level. She decimated mutantkind and didn't even pay for it. Jean? She hasn't been seen in WHO KNOWS WHEN. I don't get this odd commentary about her affecting universes when no one ever speaks of it. It's all Morrision dribble. If she's Silver Surfer-like, she would of been back at least 2 years ago. It's been 4 years and growing now.

This is so right :D

Here Comes Tomorrow is also known as Earth 15104, an alternate reality, what Jean 15104 did was destroy her own reality, it had NOTHING to do with reality 616, the reality we read on the X-Men comics every month. (In X-Men 155-156 we see the reason why Scott didn't leave... and it got nothing to do with Jean 15104)

I loved the "it's all Morrison dribble" part :D

And Jean's last appearance was in Phoenix: Endsong, if that was really her and not just a manifestation of the Phoenix Force gone wild...

[dotdotdot]

i wish you guys would learn how to read comics.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

you know to everyone else this extreme pro-magneto in all ways all the time stance looks incredibly retarded, yes?

This thread is pro Jean though. So does it really matter what anyone else thinks?

the entire reboot is hct's impact. scott would have left the xmen............even if you don't buy that, hct is where scott decides (is compelled) to stay with emma and rebuild/lead the school.
also, do you know get morrison? dribble? read more of his stuff, there's no way you'll hate it all.

The Morrison run about sedond mutations, Cassandra Nova, and Sublime. That's the horrible part. Then he spat on everything with the Planet X disaster. He really played himself. It's sad. Almost had a decent thing going but he screwed it all up.

[dotdotdot]

This thread is pro Jean though. So does it really matter what anyone else thinks?



The Morrison run about sedond mutations, Cassandra Nova, and Sublime. That's the horrible part. Then he spat on everything with the Planet X disaster. He really played himself. It's sad. Almost had a decent thing going but he screwed it all up.

what in the world is this post supposed to mean?

edit: "played himself"?

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Then he spat on everything with the Planet X disaster. He really played himself. It's sad. Almost had a decent thing going but he screwed it all up.

Some of us actually like lunatic hardcore Mags better than the gray misunderstood prophet/victim of fate/whatever he's become over the years. :D

[Cain Marko]

you know to everyone else this extreme pro-magneto in all ways all the time stance looks incredibly retarded, yes?

In fairness, the extreme pro-Jean exaggerations and warped distortions help cancel it out some.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Some of us actually like lunatic hardcore Mags better than the gray misunderstood prophet/victim of fate/whatever he's become over the years. :D

Bah. "I Magneto" is a better story than any Ultimate version of Magneto that a Morrison or Lobdell want to depict. That's what they went with on the Fox series and the Evolution cartoon. That's why he's always playable on video games. That's why he gets his own movie. He has the best background in Marvel after probably Spider-Man himself. 3 dimensional Magneto is the crown jewel of the X-Universe.

[Bart Simpson]

In fairness, the extreme pro-Jean exaggerations and warped distortions help cancel it out some.

There's no distortion that Jean sent a pain through Juggernaut's helmet while he was FULLY POWERED. Enough so that he compared it to one of Xavier's bolts, and complained that it hurt like a knife and he had to move fast. The guy resorted to using Angel as a bargaining chip in order to get Jean to stop. This is Marvel Girl 60's Jean no less.

[Bart Simpson]

X-Men #25..Magneto was multitasking fighting Jean/Xavier's mind attack, Rogue and Gambit, Quicksilver trying to get tough, and THEN Wolverine jumped him from the back. Which of course he paid for in spades to the point of him leaving the X-Mansion and leaving Jubilee in tears.

Sinister SAID "Whatever battles that lie ahead, X-Men, there is none to be fought here tonight." Beast touched his shoulder and they left. Even though he was behind the Mutant Massacre and has done UNTOLD amounts of true villiany, the heroes left and Sinister went on with his business like always.
LOL @ Damn, Bart, you have no IDEA how hard I'm laughing at that one. Beast..Jean..YOU'RE HEROES...get the job done and stop letting villians walk away from situations. Goodness gracious. Never seen anything like it.

Dark Beast mentioned Nate on panel and that's more than anything Jean related in who knows when. Carey has answered about him over and over again. And a couple of panels after 6 years? Go pick up Excalibur #5 where Chris Claremont answers my letter about Nate Grey and it gets printed to consideration. That's not delusion. That's FACT and on the record.

There is no impact from Here Comes Tommorrow. You make it sound like she's changed the world on the Wanda Maximoff level. She decimated mutantkind and didn't even pay for it. Jean? She hasn't been seen in WHO KNOWS WHEN. I don't get this odd commentary about her affecting universes when no one ever speaks of it. It's all Morrision dribble. If she's Silver Surfer-like, she would of been back at least 2 years ago. It's been 4 years and growing now.

Seriously. Reread Morrison's run if you have to. There is a direct impact from Here Comes Tomorrow that is still being felt. Everything we've seen from the x-books since is because Jean amputated that future and grew a new one. Or else Cyclops would have left the X-Men, Beast would be headmaster, and Sublime would still be contaminating all intelligent life.

I'm glad Chris answered your letter, but it doesn't mean that Nate is mentioned more than Jean. X-Position, Cup of Joe she was mentioned plenty of times. Her name is used lots of times as well, mentioned and powers explained again in this week's X-Factor Endangered Series. Featured in Ultimate X-Men and First Class, was a recurring bad guy in New Excalibur.etc etc. There's plenty of Jean related stuff mentioned and out. I never said Nate got no mention, just that your claim that he's mentioned more than Jean is absurd. Dark Beast mentioned Jean on panel as well. Both AOA and 616 Jean were shown on panel. wtf, did you even read Endangered Species?


Yes that's what Sinister said, and where was the Ultimatum to Jean or Hank? No where did he even imply they stood no chance against him. It was a situation that Genesis had tried to harm Sinister in. Sinister was no malovolent in this case. The conflict between Hank and Jean was with Genesis this time, not with Sinister. THe job was complete.

Jean was back at least 2 years ago in Phoenix Endsong. Although she didn't stay, she still came back for a brief time to gather her pieces. It seems like do you don't even read the x-books and just make up your own self biased comments.

[SYBERFOX]

Bring Back Threnody And Copycat

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

Threnody yes....CopyCat, how is she different from Mystique?

[SYBERFOX]

Bring Back Threnody Copycat And Risque !!!
IMAGINE ALL THE DATA SHE HAS ON SINISTER ? AND DOESNT SHE HAVE A BABY BY NATE GREY ?

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

3 dimensional Magneto is the crown jewel of the X-Universe.

And some of us refer to it as 'cool character gone wrong/hardcore Stu'.

Different strokes. Oh well.

[Pach!]

Bring Back Threnody Copycat And Risque !!!
IMAGINE ALL THE DATA SHE HAS ON SINISTER ? AND DOESNT SHE HAVE A BABY BY NATE GREY ?

Faded will like you.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Seriously. Reread Morrison's run if you have to. There is a direct impact from Here Comes Tomorrow that is still being felt. Everything we've seen from the x-books since is because Jean amputated that future and grew a new one. Or else Cyclops would have left the X-Men, Beast would be headmaster, and Sublime would still be contaminating all intelligent life.

I'm glad Chris answered your letter, but it doesn't mean that Nate is mentioned more than Jean. X-Position, Cup of Joe she was mentioned plenty of times. Her name is used lots of times as well, mentioned and powers explained again in this week's X-Factor Endangered Series. Featured in Ultimate X-Men and First Class, was a recurring bad guy in New Excalibur.etc etc. There's plenty of Jean related stuff mentioned and out. I never said Nate got no mention, just that your claim that he's mentioned more than Jean is absurd. Dark Beast mentioned Jean on panel as well. Both AOA and 616 Jean were shown on panel. wtf, did you even read Endangered Species?


Yes that's what Sinister said, and where was the Ultimatum to Jean or Hank? No where did he even imply they stood no chance against him. It was a situation that Genesis had tried to harm Sinister in. Sinister was no malovolent in this case. The conflict between Hank and Jean was with Genesis this time, not with Sinister. THe job was complete.

Jean was back at least 2 years ago in Phoenix Endsong. Although she didn't stay, she still came back for a brief time to gather her pieces. It seems like do you don't even read the x-books and just make up your own self biased comments.

Bart...you couldn't pay me to reread Morrison's run. Still impacting stuff, huh? That's interesting because I don't remember PAD, Carey, or Brubaker mentioning any of these Morrison issues at all. They seem to be in their own work rather than just rehash the suspect run done by Morrison.

And yeah I see Jean's name mentioned in these questionaires...she's still no coming back though. She's still not spoken of in a influential matter.

Sinister told them to leave. They left. Period. He got his way again.

[Faded]

Faded will like you.

Damn straight!

[SYBERFOX]

I Would Even Go For Lifeguard < Pamela Anderson > And Get More Acquainted With Great Lakes Avengers

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Bart...you couldn't pay me to reread Morrison's run. Still impacting stuff, huh? That's interesting because I don't remember PAD, Carey, or Brubaker mentioning any of these Morrison issues at all. They seem to be in their own work rather than just rehash the suspect run done by Morrison.

While EL and I will never agree whether Morrison's run rocked or not (Planet X pwned, bwahahahaha), short of Torn, Scott/Emma and those 'Where the f**k do they even fit into continuity' Phenix minis (amusingly related, those three, eh), its impact in the x-books overall has what, zero? Fine, so maybe not an absolute zero.

[Valeria Kementari]

Darth, there are only 2 Phoenix minis... :p