Rip Offs

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

Someone mentioned in another post that the Endangered Species chapter in Xmen 201 seemed to have ripped off Emma Frost from House of M.

During Torn in Astonishing X-Men I noticed that people said Kitty Pryde had the same stance as Wolverine from Hellfire, BUT I also noticed what she said "now it's my turn" also resembled this panel from Fathom: Dawn of War

35588


Does it upset you when artists 'rip off' other people's work? Do you even notice at all? What do you think?

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

Here's a close up

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[ProfeZZor X]

To each his/her own (artist)....

Just like older artists took styles and poses from legends like Kirby, Cochran, John Romita, and a few others... the same thing is done now-a-days.

Besides, these artists read comic books just like you and me. And they're bound to get inspiration from somewhere.

[GoingGreen]

It's more common for artists to mimic popular covers rather than panels. I think it's kinda lame, personally.

[Sentinel K]

The kitty/wolverine thing is not a rip-off. It's an homage. Big difference.

[dotdotdot]

these basically don't happen. unless you count liefeld's horrendous captain america guy for image.
99% of the time fans see inspiration, homage, similarity and misconstrue it as a rip-off.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

You didn't read it properly.

Yes the Kitty/Wolverine bit was an homage.


but that Kitty Panel also v. closely resembles THIS panel from Dawn of War, even the same dialogue (exchange Emma for Marqueses).

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

these basically don't happen. unless you count liefeld's horrendous captain america guy for image.
99% of the time fans see inspiration, homage, similarity and misconstrue it as a rip-off.

Wasn't Roger Cruz (sp?) accused of ripping off a LOT of other people's Xmen work?

[ProfeZZor X]

Wasn't Roger Cruz (sp?) accused of ripping off a LOT of other people's Xmen work?

Even if he did... Big deal. He's a great artist. Even if it was something obvious, like an interior page that resembled the 1st cover of Jack Kirby's Uncanny, I wouldn't care... Like someone said earlier, it's a matter of paying homeage that counts.

Not only that, but most readers don't go around thinking artists rip off other artists. They mostly enjoy the books they read.

There are thousands of character poses out there... Someone is bound to duplicate one particular pose a hundred times over.

[Sentinel K]

You didn't read it properly.

Yes the Kitty/Wolverine bit was an homage.


but that Kitty Panel also v. closely resembles THIS panel from Dawn of War, even the same dialogue (exchange Emma for Marqueses).

I did read it properly. You didn't say that.

But nevermind. You've said it now.

[Sentinel K]

Wasn't Roger Cruz (sp?) accused of ripping off a LOT of other people's Xmen work?

I think he was accused of copying Joe Mad's style a few years back.

He's really grown as an artist now though. He's developed his own, great, style

IMO he's better than Madureira now.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

http://www.geoffklock.com/images/shadowCat.jpg


I dont remember Cruz being accused of "covers" or Kirby or even homages (i might have the guys name wrong), but it was over something recent like literally using the characters positions/style from "recent" panels instead of coming up with his own look.

And I agree that most people don't notice these things. I just think it's an interesting topic for discussion b/c it does go unnoticed.

[dotdotdot]

http://www.geoffklock.com/images/shadowCat.jpg


I dont remember Cruz being accused of "covers" or Kirby or even homages (i might have the guys name wrong), but it was over something recent like literally using the characters positions/style from "recent" panels instead of coming up with his own look.

And I agree that most people don't notice these things. I just think it's an interesting topic for discussion b/c it does go unnoticed.

no i don't think we're saying most people don't notice, just they realize what does and doesn't constitute ripping someone off.

[Sentinel K]

no i don't think we're saying most people don't notice, just they realize what does and doesn't constitute ripping someone off.

Yeah.

I mean, i don't know who DIDN'T notice the Kitty homage, but I sure did.

And I took it for what it was. An homage. Something for the long time fans.

[40yearoldnovafan]

You didn't read it properly.

Yes the Kitty/Wolverine bit was an homage.


but that Kitty Panel also v. closely resembles THIS panel from Dawn of War, even the same dialogue (exchange Emma for Marqueses).

Kitty's sewer pose was no rip off of "Dawn of War." As Ice Cold Emma frost mentioned, it was an homage to Wolverine when he was in the sewer getting ready to continue his fight with the Hell Fire Club.

Long time X-men reader,

Jimmy

[ProfeZZor X]

http://www.geoffklock.com/images/shadowCat.jpg


I dont remember Cruz being accused of "covers" or Kirby or even homages (i might have the guys name wrong), but it was over something recent like literally using the characters positions/style from "recent" panels instead of coming up with his own look.

And I agree that most people don't notice these things. I just think it's an interesting topic for discussion b/c it does go unnoticed.

I was just using Kirby as a hypathetical example towards Cruz, since they both have a similar disposition of the X-Men in common, for the simple fact that it would be tollerable for an artist to copy someone else this day and age. Only because there are tons of poses and styles out there that have already been done... One more wouldn't hurt.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

Kitty's sewer pose was no rip off of "Dawn of War." As Ice Cold Emma frost mentioned, it was an homage to Wolverine when he was in the sewer getting ready to continue his fight with the Hell Fire Club.

Long time X-men reader,

Jimmy

This is why I'm opening it up to discussion. It was clearly an homage to Wolverine, but her line "now it's my turn", the fact that it's a female, in a water/cave setting.

Artistically it might not be a rip-off, but from a writing point of view, possibly.



And I wanted people to talk about this in general because with a book like Astonishing that's delayed for MONTHS, would people care if the poses/art were similar to other books or even the same title if the book came out on time?


I know there are only a finite amount of poses you can give a character, but I think artists lack giving characters mannerisms in panels. There's a panel of Jean Grey by Van Sciver during the Genosha/Morrison section before they find Polaris where Jean is absent-mindedly fidgeting her hands.

It's the same behavior you see actresses doing and it's a lot more interesting than "super hero clenches fists with open screaming mouth"

[dotdotdot]

This is why I'm opening it up to discussion. It was clearly an homage to Wolverine, but her line "now it's my turn", the fact that it's a female, in a water/cave setting.

Artistically it might not be a rip-off, but from a writing point of view, possibly.



And I wanted people to talk about this in general because with a book like Astonishing that's delayed for MONTHS, would people care if the poses/art were similar to other books or even the same title if the book came out on time?


I know there are only a finite amount of poses you can give a character, but I think artists lack giving characters mannerisms in panels. There's a panel of Jean Grey by Van Sciver during the Genosha/Morrison section before they find Polaris where Jean is absent-mindedly fidgeting her hands.

It's the same behavior you see actresses doing and it's a lot more interesting than "super hero clenches fists with open screaming mouth"

but from a writing stance it's also obviously not a rip-off. its simply homage. if you're ripping someone off you attempt to hide it. this isn't that.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

So Whedon was making a 'homage' to Dawn of War?

[dotdotdot]

So Whedon was making a 'homage' to Dawn of War?

nah. in that case i don't even think there is enough similarity to constitute anything.

[Sentinel K]

So Whedon was making a 'homage' to Dawn of War?

I doubt it.

It's 4 words. It's nothing. It's a coincidence.

[CmX]

I don't like artists who trace or take direct poses from panels (not classic covers/artists) I think it shows they lack creativity.

[Bulky Brent]

I don't like artists who trace or take direct poses from panels (not classic covers/artists) I think it shows they lack creativity.
If someone can take something that already exist Revamp it and make it look more appealing to me this is creativity

[Beast]

Most of this thread is ripe with over-reacting and grasping at straws.

Iconic imagry of characters will always be homaged and reinterpreted.

Why do you think the cover to Giant-Size X-Men #1 has been homaged so much.

[theardri]

Someone mentioned in another post that the Endangered Species chapter in Xmen 201 seemed to have ripped off Emma Frost from House of M.

During Torn in Astonishing X-Men I noticed that people said Kitty Pryde had the same stance as Wolverine from Hellfire, BUT I also noticed what she said "now it's my turn" also resembled this panel from Fathom: Dawn of War

35588


Does it upset you when artists 'rip off' other people's work? Do you even notice at all? What do you think?


It was not a "rip off" of the first Hellfire story but rather a hommage to it. Joss is old enough (like me) to have read it. Kitty is basically Logans first real student in the Xmen ... and in a Hell fire story where the Xmen are in trouble ... it is fitting for a mirror like that.

Rip off is a subjective term.

[DDM]

Most of this thread is ripe with over-reacting and grasping at straws.

Iconic imagry of characters will always be homaged and reinterpreted.

Why do you think the cover to Giant-Size X-Men #1 has been homaged so much.

Actually, I believe Giant Size X-Men #1 is a homage to Giant Size Defenders #1:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/23569289102.1.GIF

[theardri]

So Whedon was making a 'homage' to Dawn of War?

What was Logans line in the origional one

"You've taken your best shot .... Now it's my turn" or similar? Still a Hommange IMHO to the origional Hellfire club arc way back wen. If nothing the Dawn of war was ripping that off ;)

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

What was Logans line in the origional one

"You've taken your best shot .... Now it's my turn" or similar? Still a Hommange IMHO to the origional Hellfire club arc way back wen. If nothing the Dawn of war was ripping that off ;)

I'm not discounting that. This thread isn't "everyone agree with me about this one panel"....it's a serious discussion about artists/writers reusing ideas and how everyone feels about plagarism in comics, regardless of who's plagarising/ripping off whom.

[Joe Franklin]

I think he was accused of copying Joe Mad's style a few years back.

He's really grown as an artist now though. He's developed his own, great, style

IMO he's better than Madureira now.

He will never be even close to as good as Joe Madureira is on his worse day. Cruz is good, but Joe mad is great.

[Sentinel K]

He will never be even close to as good as Joe Madureira is on his worse day. Cruz is good, but Joe mad is great.

I appreciate Joe Mad's skill. I used to really like his style.

I just think it's really dated now. That's what happens when someone comes along with a new style and people try and imitate it. It becomes kind of stale.

Same thing happened to Jim lee.

[dotdotdot]

I'm not discounting that. This thread isn't "everyone agree with me about this one panel"....it's a serious discussion about artists/writers reusing ideas and how everyone feels about plagarism in comics, regardless of who's plagarising/ripping off whom.

well yeah, but we need am example of possible plagarism to discuss....and i don't think we have that in this thread yet

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

well yeah, but we need am example of poissible plagarism to discuss....and i don't think we have that in this thread yet

Then find some or just don't post at all. Honestly, if you have nothing constructive to add other than "this blows" then don't bother.

[Scavenger]

This is why I'm opening it up to discussion. It was clearly an homage to Wolverine, but her line "now it's my turn", the fact that it's a female, in a water/cave setting.

Artistically it might not be a rip-off, but from a writing point of view, possibly.


I'm sorry...you're seriously concidering that Joss Whedon has heard of, much less read...some..what Top Cow? Aspen? comic and thought...hey, what a great pannel that is...I must use it! Everyone will think I'm referencing one of the most iconic Wolverine scenes ever, but I'm actually just ripping this book no one's heard of!

The man is diabolical!

[xmanson]

The kitty/wolverine thing is not a rip-off. It's an homage. Big difference.

It depends on who's writing and/or penciling, actually. (And i'm pretty sure said scene was pósed that way due to writing)

Had it been Liefeld, it would be a rip off for many.

[HarrisonJohn]

Both Astonishing and the other book, whatever it's called, are paying an obvious tribute to a classic Wolverine scene in a classic issue of X-Men. There's no way to rip it off because the average comic book fan will know what it is. Like if you see Beyonce in concert and she sings a little bit of Diana Ross during one of her songs. She's not trying to get away with anything. You should know the song, or at least figure she's doing a bit of someone else's thing.

[xmanson]

There is a site devoted to Liefeld rip offs. Just can't remmeber the link.

[Mikl C]

Emma Frost is a ripoff of my DAD!!!

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

Both Astonishing and the other book, whatever it's called, are paying an obvious tribute to a classic Wolverine scene in a classic issue of X-Men. There's no way to rip it off because the average comic book fan will know what it is. Like if you see Beyonce in concert and she sings a little bit of Diana Ross during one of her songs. She's not trying to get away with anything. You should know the song, or at least figure she's doing a bit of someone else's thing.

Funny analogy considering Beyonce ripped off Kylie's Fever entrance at the BET awards (I hardly think a BET audience, in the US none-the-less, 'gets' a Dr. Who/Borg Queen/Metropolis reference)

[HarrisonJohn]

Funny analogy considering Beyonce ripped off Kylie's Fever entrance at the BET awards (I hardly think a BET audience, in the US none-the-less, 'gets' a Dr. Who/Borg Queen/Metropolis reference)

Madonna in her Material Girl video is paying homage to Marilyn Monroe and her movie. But there will always be people unfamiliar with Marilyn who see her movie years later and think "oh **** Madonna riped that off!" I think the Wolverine panel is a famous one in the comic book world, and the reader is supposed to get the reference, like in the Madonna video, but not everyone will. Beyonce's intention wasn't to make people think of Kylie, so if she did in fact get the idea from her, it is a rip-off. At least that is how I see it.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

It's all about intention vs. coincedence

[dotdotdot]

eh, nevermind. redundant.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Emma Frost is a ripoff of my DAD!!!

sweet


Picss?

[Bulky Brent]

Madonna in her Material Girl video is paying homage to Marilyn Monroe and her movie. But there will always be people unfamiliar with Marilyn who see her movie years later and think "oh **** Madonna riped that off!" I think the Wolverine panel is a famous one in the comic book world, and the reader is supposed to get the reference, like in the Madonna video, but not everyone will. Beyonce's intention wasn't to make people think of Kylie, so if she did in fact get the idea from her, it is a rip-off. At least that is how I see it.
I'm pretty sure it's likewise in this case also