Some More Magneto Discussion. Folks Love to Talk About Magneto

[jmc247]

What the heck was wrong with Magneto's face? I know we only saw the right side, but it looked 30 years older then his Excalibur/House of M appearences and it looked scarred.

Its pretty obvious and its been pretty obvious since the X-Men 200 cover came out and the first pictures of 'Masque' came out.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/magsdeformed.jpg

You notice 'Masque's' right side is almost presentable, but somewhat scarred, while his left side is very deformed, well Marvel has purposely hidden Magneto's left side in the last two pictures of him, while his right side has been somewhat scarred.

I didn't need the Uncanny editor saying reciently that there is a big plot twist involving 'Masque' (a woman is really a man sort of thing) as he said. I said two months ago Bru was going down this route.

Its clear Bru is having a deformed Magneto (from the helicopter crash) pretending to be Masque and using Masque's lingo and the Morlock beliefs to lead them. The Magneto pretending to be someone else plot line has been done to death and it is clear it is about to be done again.

Though I wonder why so few have picked up on it yet, whereas so many picked up on Morrison having Magneto pretend to be Xorn (pre-retcon)? Austin was pretty subtle about it in Uncanny 430 with Xorneto talking to Polaris and Nurse Annie and yet many people picked it up. I guess it is just harder to imagine the writers abusing Magneto to the extent of making him a deformed terrorist, which is something that only someone who really hates the character (even beyond Morrison's hate for the character) would pull.

Yet, it is clear where this 'plot twist' with 'Masque' is headed. You would think Marvel would have learned the lesson from Morrison and the several other Magneto appearences that have had to been retconned over the years not to let writers who hate the character abuse the character. But, no Marvel never learns, and this plot line is as bad or worse then Morrison's Planet X terrorist Magneto pretending to be Xorn crap. Now we have a deformed terrorist Magneto pretending to be Masque.

[dotdotdot]

Its pretty obvious and its been pretty obvious since the X-Men 200 cover came out and the first pictures of 'Masque' came out.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/magsdeformed.jpg

You notice 'Masque's' right side is almost presentable, but somewhat scarred, while his left side is very deformed, well Marvel has purposely hidden Magneto's left side in the last two pictures of him, while his right side has been somewhat scarred.

I didn't need the Uncanny editor saying reciently that there is a big plot twist involving 'Masque' (a woman is really a man sort of thing) as he said. I said two months ago Bru was going down this route.

Its clear Bru is having a deformed Magneto (from the helicopter crash) pretending to be Masque and using Masque's lingo and the Morlock beliefs to lead them. The Magneto pretending to be someone else plot line has been done to death and it is clear it is about to be done again.

Though I wonder why so few have picked up on it yet, whereas so many picked up on Morrison having Magneto pretend to be Xorn (pre-retcon)? Austin was pretty subtle about it in Uncanny 430 with Xorneto talking to Polaris and Nurse Annie and yet many people picked it up. I guess it is just harder to imagine the writers abusing Magneto to the extent of making him a deformed terrorist, which is something that only someone who really hates the character (even beyond Morrison's hate for the character) would pull.

Yet, it is clear where this 'plot twist' with 'Masque' is headed. You would think Marvel would have learned the lesson from Morrison and the several other Magneto appearences that have had to been retconned over the years not to let writers who hate the character abuse the character. But, no Marvel never learns, and this plot line is as bad or worse then Morrison's Planet X terrorist Magneto pretending to be Xorn crap. Now we have a deformed terrorist Magneto pretending to be Masque.

i highly doubt this. you seem awfully sure based on, well, zero information.
it's possible though. heaven forbid the fact that magneto has shifted identities before lead you to believe that he might TRY IT AGAIN.

[Magneto Rocks]

I'd wait and see, jmc, before making any calls like that. For one thing, Ed Brubaker is generally famed for how he treats villains. (Making the Red Skull have his vengeance, building he, Sin, and Crossbones up majorly to make them 3D characters, his fantastic character study of Doctor Doom, his portrayal of Kingpin in DD, etc. I thinmk he's respect the charcter too much to do that- and if he WAS doing that, he'd have a much deeper reason than you think.

[jmc247]

i highly doubt this. you seem awfully sure based on, well, zero information.
it's possible though. heaven forbid the fact that magneto has shifted identities before lead you to believe that he might TRY IT AGAIN.

Zero information? What do you believe the Uncanny editor was talking about when he said a big plot twist was coming when it comes to Masque (a woman pretending to be a man sort of thing as he said)? One almost has to be blind not to see this coming at this point.

The whole Xorn pretending to be Magneto crap was less obvious, but a hell of alot of people picked it up before hand, which leads me to believe that there is a level of disbelief that Marvel would let Magneto's character be so abused once again, yet I believe it 100%.

Marvel has zero quality control when it comes to their main villians (Magneto, Thanos, and Doom). Ask yourself how many very very bad appearences over the years have had to be retconned away of these characters.

I'd wait and see, jmc, before making any calls like that. For one thing, Ed Brubaker is generally famed for how he treats villains. (Making the Red Skull have his vengeance, building he, Sin, and Crossbones up majorly to make them 3D characters, his fantastic character study of Doctor Doom, his portrayal of Kingpin in DD, etc. I thinmk he's respect the charcter too much to do that- and if he WAS doing that, he'd have a much deeper reason than you think.


I heard the exact same words from Magneto fans before Morrison's abuse of the character about how Morrison understood writing gray villians and he would do a great job with Magneto and we know exactly how that turned out.

[Magneto Rocks]

Marvel has zero quality control when it comes to their main villians (Magneto, Thanos, and Doom). Ask yourself how many very very bad appearences over the years have had to be retconned away of these characters.

Ask yourself how many of those really bad stories have been since 2000, with the exception of Planet X. Not many, they do a much better job these days.

[jmc247]

Ask yourself how many of those really bad stories have been since 2000, with the exception of Planet X. Not many, they do a much better job these days.

I sadly don't believe they do a better job today then in the past.

[Magneto Rocks]

I sadly don't believe they do a better job today then in the past.

But why not? What villains have been ruined in the last few years (Again, since Planet X)? Doom was treated well (well, controversially) in "Unthinkable" and "Authoritive Action", and then again in his brief return story last year.... in recent years there have been many more hits than misses with most villains. Although it's true to say Magneto has probably had many more misses than hits in the last decade or so, I remain confident Brubaker can deliver a hit. I think the idea of him being Masque is madness and a horrible plot idea... but then frankly, I would have said the same about Bucky being the Winter Soldier. And Brubaker knocked that one out of the ballpark. So I'll wait and see.

EDIT: Oh, and you said the last two picutres of him. Out of curiosity, besides X-men #200, what other picture has there been which only showed that side of his face?

[jmc247]

But why not? What villains have been ruined in the last few years (Again, since Planet X)? Doom was treated well (well, controversially) in "Unthinkable" and "Authoritive Action", and then again in his brief return story last year.... in recent years there have been many more hits than misses with most villains. Although it's true to say Magneto has probably had many more misses than hits in the last decade or so, I remain confident Brubaker can deliver a hit. I think the idea of him being Masque is madness and a horrible plot idea... but then frankly, I would have said the same about Bucky being the Winter Soldier. And Brubaker knocked that one out of the ballpark. So I'll wait and see.

EDIT: Oh, and you said the last two picutres of him. Out of curiosity, besides X-men #200, what other picture has there been which only showed that side of his face?

What I meant was there are writers who like the main three villians and understand them and writers who hate them and don't understand them.

When you have a period of writers that understand a character like Magneto, Doom, or Thanos and like them, then you get great appearences by them. When you have a writer or set of writers that don't understand or like the characters then you get terrible apperences by them.

The 1990s Magneto was abused because you had a writer that didn't like Magneto (Lobdell) writing many of the X-books. Had Claremont or another writer been in charge who somewhat likes Magneto everything would have been different. A good era for Magneto or the other main three villians can end in an instant when Marvel switches writers, because Marvel doesn't do quality control with their villians.

As for the other picture. What I said was when I first saw the picture of "Masque" in Uncanny 487 I said quite clearly on this site that was not Masque that was Magneto. I knew what Masque looks like and I know what Magneto looks like and I could see it in the hair and in the eyes that was Magneto.

I would jump for joy if I am wrong, but since then the evidence has just quickly piled up in the other direction.

[dotdotdot]

this horseshit where magneto must be written as a tortured hero or the writer doesn't get him has got to stop. you guys are the ones who have forgotten who this character is, not us.

and i'm mostly taking issue not with your prediction, jmc, but with your way of calling out the twist and then prebitching about it before it takes place.

anyway, endangered species made me enjoy dark beast for the first time. kudos.

[jmc247]

this horseshit where magneto must be written as a tortured hero or the writer doesn't get him has got to stop. you guys are the ones who have forgotten who this character is, not us.


This is exactly what I was talking about. When a writer who has the view of Magneto like Claremont writes for him you get a totally different Magneto then when when someone that sees Magneto like dotdotdot sees him.

There are two camps when it comes to Magneto and it divides both writers and fans alike. There are those that believe Magneto is a flawed man trying to create a peaceful world where mutants don't have to live in fear and that he doesn't believe in terrorizing innocents or altering reality to achieve his dream. But, is willing to use force against military or political targets, especially when provoked.

And, there are those that believe Magneto is a power hungry racist terrorist that will go to any length to achieve his goals. You get completely different Magnetos when writers of one camp or the other write Magneto.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/Capwanda.jpg

[dotdotdot]

This is exactly what I was talking about. When a writer who has the view of Magneto like Claremont writes for him you get a totally different Magneto then when when someone that sees Magneto like dotdotdot sees him.

There are two camps when it comes to Magneto and it divides both writers and fans alike. There are those that believe Magneto is a flawed man trying to create a peaceful world where mutants don't have to live in fear and that he doesn't believe in terrorizing innocents or altering reality to achieve his dream. But, is willing to use force against military or political targets, especially when provoked.

And, there are those that believe Magneto is a power hungry racist terrorist that will go to any length to achieve his goals. You get completely different Magnetos when writers of one camp or the other write Magneto.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/Capwanda.jpg

there aren't two camps, there doesn't need to be any division like this. there's guys like you who let it upset them that the character has changed a bit again.
it's not one or the other.

edit: the problem is that when events justify magneto's turn towards a terrorist, towards his roots, then claremont decides instantly with no justification to have good fun lighthearted magneto show up a couple of months later. that's why this argument exists.
with different timing (and some purpose), i can't imagine anyone objecting to a more ambiguous magneto, for that's in his history too, but for you guys to squeal about a villain acting, well, villainous.....
go read your back issues or something.

[jmc247]

there aren't two camps, there doesn't need to be any division like this. there's guys like you who let it upset them that the character has changed a bit again.
it's not one or the other.

Lets see Magneto in the X-Men Animated Series was written in very Claremontian mode and when his new homeland in outerspace was attacked by the U.S. (after Cortez launched a missle to provoke the US to counter attack) Magneto did not counter attack he still refused to attack even when provoked.

Magneto in the X-Men movies was willing to exterminate all human life without flinching or batting an eye and even tried to.

Magneto in the X-Men Animated Series loved Magda. Magneto in the X-Men movies was portayed as a racist incapable of loving a human. Just look at his response to Mystique when she turned human.

Don't tell me there isn't vastly different views on Magneto from the writers of Marvel down to the fans. The late 80s animated series that only managed one episode portayed a Morrison or X-Men movie type Magneto that wanted to wipe out humanity with an astroid so mutants could rule. Try telling me the Magneto of the 1990s animated series would ever think of such a thing.

[Brian Cronin]

Lets see Magneto in the X-Men Animated Series was written in very Claremontian mode and when his new homeland in outerspace was attacked by the U.S. (after Cortez launched a missle to provoke the US to counter attack) Magneto did not counter attack he still refused to attack even when provoked.

Magneto in the X-Men movies was willing to exterminate all human life without flinching or batting an eye and even tried to.

Magneto in the X-Men Animated Series loved Magda. Magneto in the X-Men movies was portayed as a racist incapable of loving a human. Just look at his response to Mystique when she turned human.

Don't tell me there isn't vastly different views on Magneto from the writers of Marvel down to the fans.

Of course there are.

Different writers have different approaches.

It just isn't a matter of "camps" or anything organized like that.

-Brian

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Yikes


even Cronin is making magneto threads now


Couple quick things


Magneto isnt a terrorist, he's at war with humans. Hence he first attacked a military base


Now is it out of character for Magneto to be "evil"?

OF course not, his power makes him go crazy.

Seems most writers and magneto detractors just gloss over that major major detail



But even then, would magneto resort to terrorism? Nope. He'd do something drastic. Terrorism is a wussy way of going about things


Should a powerless magneto be evil? No. He's power is what makes him evil. Take that away and you just get an old man

[Michael P]

Of course there are.

Different writers have different approaches.

It just isn't a matter of "camps" or anything organized like that.

-Brian

Although that is an amusing word choice for the, shall we say, Acolytes of Magneto's characterization to use, given the character's history.

Oh, and Magneto is a racist and a terrorist. Just because he hasn't always been one doesn't mean he isn't one now.

[jmc247]

Different writers have different approaches.

It just isn't a matter of "camps" or anything organized like that.


I never said it was organized. I said there are vastly and I do mean vastly different views on Magneto that divide fandom and the writers on the character. One is that he is inherently a good man trying to do what is right and protect mutant kind. The other that he is a power hungry racist willing to go to any length to achieve his goals and gain power for himself. And, Magneto comes off vastly differently when a writer that sees him one way or the other is writing.

[Michael P]

Magneto isnt a terrorist, he's at war with humans.Since when? Where was the formal declaration, and on behalf of what nation did he make it?

Magneto is "at war" with humanity in exactly the same manner as Osama Bin Laden is at war with the West. He may be nicer about it (which is damning with faint praise), but it's pretty much the same deal, geopolitically.

[dotdotdot]

I never said it was organized. I said there are vastly and I do mean vastly different views on Magneto that divide fandom and the writers on the character. One is that he is inherently a good man trying to do what is right and protect mutant kind. The other that he is a power hungry racist willing to go to any length to achieve his goals and gain power for himself. And, Magneto comes off vastly differently when a writer that sees him one way or the other is writing.

but they don't divide fans. part of the fanbase chooses to be divided because they don't understand how a character can go through changes. period.
you'd have a case of both sides were determined that the character should be written one way and one way only, but only one group feels that way. tells you something.

[dotdotdot]

hey thanks for putting this discussion where it belongs, brian.

[Monty_Cristo]

so, anyways...

if it is Magneto, then who is the woman he is answering to? and why is he so old, short, and dumpy looking? and why does he have flesh manipulating powers? and what's w/ this claim that the humans attacked him? he knows good and well who was behind decimation.

[jmc247]

he's at war with humans.

Magneto isn't at war with human's he is trying to find ways of creating a world where mutants would be safe. Which is why he has tried colonies in space, colonies on Islands, demanding the world disarm their nuclear weapons, and yes taking over the world to make a peaceful situation for mutants.

If he was at war with humans like movie Magneto a hundred space rocks from the Kuiper belt would have already wiped out most of mankind's greatest cities.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

no its vastly different


Were their soldiers in the twin towers that im unaware of? Military secrets

He was attacking citizens specifically

Magneto doesnt do that. He functions in the way that people at war do. Collateral damage yes, but not direct intent to kill civilians. Granted back in the day countries even did that.

The nation he declared war for would be the nation of mutants. You dont need sovereign land to be a nation. Look at american indian tribes, for example

But even then the main thing is being ignored in useless discussions of what he does or doesnt do

Magneto's POWER MAKES HIM CRAZY

Thats why he does all of it. Thats the interesting thing. Thats the fact that makes Xavier a truly evil person

[dotdotdot]

Magneto isn't at war with human's he is trying to find ways of creating a world where mutants would be safe. Which is why he has tried colonies in space, colonies on Islands, demanding the world disarm their nuclear weapons, and yes taking over the world to make a peaceful situation for mutants.

If he was at war with humans like movie Magneto a hundred space rocks from the Kuiper belt would have already wiped out most of mankind's greatest cities.

it's more accurate to say he goes back and forth between hating humans and warring with them. neither of which is laudable, so what are you talking about?

[dotdotdot]

Thats the fact that makes Xavier a truly evil person

say who?
....

[Michael P]

no its vastly different


Were their soldiers in the twin towers that im unaware of? Military secrets

He was attacking citizens specifically

Magneto doesnt do that.

Sure he does. He's done so on numerous occasions, the first being in Uncanny X-Men #4, wherein the Brotherhood operated in pretty much the same manner as the Taliban.

The nation he declared war for would be the nation of mutants. You dont need sovereign land to be a nation. Look at american indian tribes, for example

Actually, most Amerindian nations do have sovereign land. Granted, it's mostly small and crappy, but it's theirs (the Cherokee managed to get a pretty sweet deal going, although it's not their ancestral homeland).

Magneto didn't declare war on behalf of a nation; he declared war on behalf of a race. You can do that, but it doesn't exactly put you in good company.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Xavier knows, as did Moira McTaggert, that Magneto's power makes him go crazy


Not only is he seemingly uninterested in helping his "friend" but he is keeping this information to himself


He'd rather people think his friend is a monster than admit that the X-gene can itself be evil

He's casting his friend as a villain because he's vision necessitates that it needs one. He wants people to see good mutants vs. evil mutants. He certainly doesnt want people to look at the X-gene itself as being good or evil.

[dotdotdot]

Xavier knows, as did Moira McTaggert, that Magneto's power makes him go crazy


Not only is he seemingly uninterested in helping his "friend" but he is keeping this information to himself


He'd rather people think his friend is a monster than admit that the X-gene can itself be evil

He's casting his friend as a villain because he's vision necessitates that it needs one. He wants people to see good mutants vs. evil mutants. He certainly doesnt want people to look at the X-gene itself as being good or evil.

has a story ever backed this up or is it something you made up. i don't mind it, but it sounds original.

[jmc247]

Sure he does. He's done so on numerous occasions, the first being in Uncanny X-Men #4, wherein the Brotherhood operated in pretty much the same manner as the Taliban.


Magneto threw a human who was inciting the people against him in the dungeon. He didn't have his head cut off and put on a pike.

[Red Lotus]

He's casting his friend as a villain because he's vision necessitates that it needs one. He wants people to see good mutants vs. evil mutants. He certainly doesnt want people to look at the X-gene itself as being good or evil.

I know this want happen, but I would like for them switch roles. Make Xavier evil and Magneto good. Xavier being such a evil SOB the past few years needs some type of pay off.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Sure he does. He's done so on numerous occasions, the first being in Uncanny X-Men #4, wherein the Brotherhood operated in pretty much the same manner as the Taliban.



Actually, most Amerindian nations do have sovereign land. Granted, it's mostly small and crappy, but it's theirs (the Cherokee managed to get a pretty sweet deal going, although it's not their ancestral homeland).

Magneto didn't declare war on behalf of a nation; he declared war on behalf of a race. You can do that, but it doesn't exactly put you in good company.


Again you need to take a geography class

A nation is a race. You are thinking of Nation-state, that being a nation with sovereign land


There is a distinction.

Also as per the america indian nations i was more referencing back to before America preformed genocide. Many nations didnt think owning land made any sense

I remember reading this one thing, or hearing it and it really set in mind what this mentality was

"hey, ill give you 10 bucks for this land"
"Okay! How about i sell you the air too?"



As for Uncanny 4, you're going to have to be specific as to what you are talking about. I think that was the issue where the brotherhood took over a country, which leads credence to the notion that Magneto is at war and not some terrorist

[Michael P]

Magneto threw a human who was inciting the people against him in the dungeon. He didn't have his head cut off and put on a pike.

I was referring to violently overthrowing the recognized government of a sovereign nation and replacing it with a racist autocracy.

And hey, maybe he just didn't have any pikes. He certainly showed no concern whatsoever for the safety or security of the citizens of San Marco.

[Michael P]

He's casting his friend as a villain because he's vision necessitates that it needs one.

I would imagine he casts his friend as a villain because his friend kills people for getting in his way.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

has a story ever backed this up or is it something you made up. i don't mind it, but it sounds original.

Its what one has to infer from the fact that the avengers sure as shit dont know magneto's power makes him bonkers

and the fact that Xavier clearly does and certainly isnt doing anything to fix it. Moria tried to, but as far as i remember Xavier was ignorant to that


and the fact people still cast him as an evil mutant, rather than someone who needs A LOT of mental help

[dotdotdot]

Magneto threw a human who was inciting the people against him in the dungeon. He didn't have his head cut off and put on a pike.

the first one is not ok, heroic, or grey by any means.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

I was referring to violently overthrowing the recognized government of a sovereign nation and replacing it with a racist autocracy.

And hey, maybe he just didn't have any pikes. He certainly showed no concern whatsoever for the safety or security of the citizens of San Marco.


Again, that isnt a terrorist action

Magneto overthrew a government, which oddly enough most current countries have done. He conquered it

Was it a good thing? Nope. But war isnt a good thing. Every evil thing magneto has done has been done by actual governments and in some cases in even more horrible ways.

[jmc247]

the first one is not ok, heroic, or grey by any means.

I would think most non elected leaders in the world throw people inciting the people against them in jail or they don't stay in power for long.

And, add to that Magneto in the 1960s was bads**t crazy thanks to his powers. His plans back then were insane even by Silver Age standards like putting the X-Men into a hot air balloon.

[dotdotdot]

I would think most non elected leaders in the world throw people inciting the people against them in jail or they don't stay in power for long.

And, add to that Magneto in the 1960s was bads**t crazy thanks to his powers.

jail = dungeon?
it sounds like you're comparing him to tyrannical dictators, yet still with an air of defense somehow.

[Michael P]

Again you need to take a geography class

Passed with flying colors, actually.

A nation is a race. You are thinking of Nation-state, that being a nation with sovereign land


There is a distinction.
"Nation" can mean a people or a sovereign country. I was using it in the latter context.

As for Uncanny 4, you're going to have to be specific as to what you are talking about. I think that was the issue where the brotherhood took over a country, which leads credence to the notion that Magneto is at war and not some terrorist

See my post to jmc. He neither declared war nor stated a list of grievances; he simply moved in, threw the real government out, and put himself in charge. Terrorists do that all the time.

Hell, ask a terrorist, they'll say they're at war. Doesn't mean there's anything justifiable about their intentions or their actions. Indeed, much of modern global policy is centered around the notion that there is no formal war between Islamic fundamentalism and the West, there's just a bunch of people who kill indiscriminately in pursuit of their political goals.

I say again, Magneto's methods have far more in common with Al Qaeda than any recognized army or country in history.

[dotdotdot]

Was it a good thing? Nope. But war isnt a good thing. Every evil thing magneto has done has been done by actual governments and in some cases in even more horrible ways.

that is not a justification nor a proof that it isn't terrorism.
we should keep the politics out of this, or this thread is going to get alot dumber.

[jmc247]

jail = dungeon?
it sounds like you're comparing him to tyrannical dictators, yet still with an air of defense somehow.

He was living in a castle. The form of jail in a castle is a dungon.

[jmc247]

that is not a justification nor a proof that it isn't terrorism.


Taking over a country is not terrorism. Blowing up schools, markets, or buildings is terrorism.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

I was referring to violently overthrowing the recognized government of a sovereign nation and replacing it with a racist autocracy.

And hey, maybe he just didn't have any pikes. He certainly showed no concern whatsoever for the safety or security of the citizens of San Marco.

Well since i doubt he hired contractors offpanel, if there was a dungeon he threw him in, that was in country already

But thats semantics.

He would have thrown anyone, human or mutant, into the stockades (just to add another word) who sought to overthrow him

He was delusionally insane and crazy paranoid

Magneto's not evil, he's mentally ill

[dotdotdot]

He was living in a castle. The form of jail in a castle is a dungon.

in jail you get a toilet, food, access to a gym, clothing......
you should stop comparing this case to people who are actually thrown in jail. ridiculous comparison.

[Michael P]

Again, that isnt a terrorist action.

Crap. Terrorists do it all the time. In South America, in Africa, in Afghanistan. And then they win and start calling themselves legitimate armies.

By the way, what does everyone think happened to the official government of San Marco? The President, the National Assembly? Do you really think Magneto kept those guys around, or sent them on their merry way with a wagged finger and a "don't let me catch you forming an insurgency?" If I were a member of Amnesty International in the Marvel Universe, I'd go looking in San Marco for some quickly-dug graves.

He was living in a castle. The form of jail in a castle is a dungon. So there were no ordinary prisons or jails in San Marco? Generally, throwing people in the dungeons is reserved for tyrants with a penchant for torture.

[Michael P]

Magneto's not evil, he's mentally ill

So was Cujo.

[jmc247]

you should stop comparing this case to people who are actually thrown in jail. ridiculous comparison.

Why not? He was living in a castle and the person was inciting the people against him. The word dungon or jail is symantics.

And, quickly this Magneto thread outpaces the Uncanny 489 thread. The mod who created the title certainly made an apt title.

[Michael P]

Taking over a country is not terrorism. Blowing up schools, markets, or buildings is terrorism.

ter·ror·ism /ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ter-uh-riz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
[Origin: 1785–95; terror + -ism]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
ter·ror·ism (těr'ə-rĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
WordNet - Cite This Source
terrorism

noun
the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear

To borrow from Brian, take a geopolitics course. The goal of every terrorist is the overthrow of a government.

[dotdotdot]

Why not? He was living in a castle and the person was inciting the people against him. The word dungon or jail is symantics.

And, quickly this Magneto thread outpaces the Uncanny 489 thread. The mod who created the title certainly made an apt title.

the words mean entirely different things, they carry different connotations (i guess i mean denotations). i'm still waiting to find out what it is you're defending here.

[dotdotdot]

Its what one has to infer from the fact that the avengers sure as shit dont know magneto's power makes him bonkers

and the fact that Xavier clearly does and certainly isnt doing anything to fix it. Moria tried to, but as far as i remember Xavier was ignorant to that


and the fact people still cast him as an evil mutant, rather than someone who needs A LOT of mental help

yeah that's just not the case at all, but nice theory.

[jmc247]

the words mean entirely different things, they carry different connotations (i guess i mean denotations). i'm still waiting to find out what it is you're defending here.

I am saying he isn't a terrorist or tyrant.

When he does something like firing off the EMP at Earth in X-Men 25 he did it to shut down satellites being used against him. There were collateral damage and humans died, but like the US at war when they cause collateral damage his direct target wasn't civilians. That is why he isn't a terrorist. Ultimate Magneto is a different story.

[Pro]

There are two camps when it comes to Magneto and it divides both writers and fans alike. There are those that believe Magneto is a flawed man trying to create a peaceful world where mutants don't have to live in fear and that he doesn't believe in terrorizing innocents or altering reality to achieve his dream. But, is willing to use force against military or political targets, especially when provoked.

And, there are those that believe Magneto is a power hungry racist terrorist that will go to any length to achieve his goals. You get completely different Magnetos when writers of one camp or the other write Magneto.

Erm, no. Writers don't join camps, they write stories. Most writers have enough sense of nuance to understand he is neither of those extremes, it's just apologetic fanboys who don't get it.

[jmc247]

it's just apologetic fanboys who don't get it.

You love the term 'fanboys' when it comes to Magneto fans. The reality is you simply have a very different opinion of Magneto then some of us. Claremont spent well over a decade creating the Magneto I feel is the real Magneto. Though, some like you see Magneto differently.

[Monty_Cristo]

so, anyways...

if it is Magneto, then who is the woman he is answering to? and why is he so old, short, and dumpy looking? and why does he have flesh manipulating powers? and what's w/ this claim that the humans attacked him? he knows good and well who was behind decimation.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Passed with flying colors, actually.


"Nation" can mean a people or a sovereign country. I was using it in the latter context.


you asked what nation he declared war for, i said the nation of humans. Then you said "Magneto didn't declare war on behalf of a nation; he declared war on behalf of a race".

If you meant country, naturally then you can see how this can be confusing for anyone. To me it read like you were saying that nation wasnt people, but that it was different

Im enjoying this discussion and would hate to see it turn into some flame war, so let's ignore all this. I'll admit that the "take a geography class" was a lot crasser, in retrospect, than i intended. Apologies if it read that way





See my post to jmc. He neither declared war nor stated a list of grievances; he simply moved in, threw the real government out, and put himself in charge. Terrorists do that all the time.

So do conquering nations. I doubt rome really had problems with what britain was doing, they just wanted to stretch their legs out a bit.

Hell, ask a terrorist, they'll say they're at war. Doesn't mean there's anything justifiable about their intentions or their actions. Indeed, much of modern global policy is centered around the notion that there is no formal war between Islamic fundamentalism and the West, there's just a bunch of people who kill indiscriminately in pursuit of their political goals.

I say again, Magneto's methods have far more in common with Al Qaeda than any recognized army or country in history.

And i disagree immensely. He isnt out killing innocents to kill innocents. Do innocents die? Sure, but that happens with every war. His actions are generally retaliatory in nature

As for formal declerations, in Magneto's mind, im sure humans declared war on mutants. I dont remember the specifics, but i recall in a magneto back up story back when he was working for the CIA as a Mossad double agent his CIA handler said something to that effect after he slit his girlfriends throat because Magneto killed a Nazi that the american gov't was shielding

[jmc247]

To borrow from Brian, take a geopolitics course. The goal of every terrorist is the overthrow of a government.

The goal of every terrorist is to overthrow a government? Not, quite. The goal of every terrorist is use violence targeting civilians to effect political decisions.

Magneto doesn't target civilians using violence. He attacks military targets, he is not a murderer of innocents or a terrorist.

[dotdotdot]

I am saying he isn't a terrorist or tyrant.

When he does something like firing off the EMP at Earth in X-Men 25 he did it to shut down satellites being used against him. There were collateral damage and humans died, but like the US at war when they cause collateral damage his direct target wasn't civilians. That is why he isn't a terrorist. Ultimate Magneto is a different story.

"In his Artic Circle base, Magneto beefs up his powers with a conductor and uses it to once again tear open the electromagnetic spectrum. The attack sends ripples, which begin to spread across Earth, threatening to shut down all of civilization until Magneto’s demands are met by the United Nations."

hrm

[dotdotdot]

to put it bluntly: he's been known to let innocents, as long as they were human, die if it serves his ends. what is to argue about?

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

America dilberatly attacked innocents in ww2


Magneto doesnt go out and kill innocents

thats the distinction


terrorism distinction from guerrilla warfare is that it deliberately attacks non-combatants

[Michael P]

The goal of every terrorist is to overthrow a government? Not, quite. The goal of every terrorist is use violence targeting civilians to effect political decisions.

Magneto doesn't target civilians using violence. He attacks military targets, he is not a murderer of innocents or a terrorist.

What made San Marco a military target? What made New York City a military target? What made the Savage Land a military target? (There's another addition to the list of crimes; illegal experimentation on sentient creatures.) What made the Earth's electromagnetic field a military target? What made the hospitals, commercial airliners, and weather observation stations knocked out by his worldwide EMP military targets? What made the medical patients, passengers, and scientists who died when the electronic systems keeping them alive failed not innocent civilians?

[Pro]

"In his Artic Circle base, Magneto beefs up his powers with a conductor and uses it to once again tear open the electromagnetic spectrum. The attack sends ripples, which begin to spread across Earth, threatening to shut down all of civilization until Magneto’s demands are met by the United Nations."

hrm

I was about to bring that up :). Magneto made it perfectly clear Genosha was only the first step because he'd never trust humans. Racist much?

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

So was Cujo.

No apt parallel though

If you knew that if you could capture and isolate Cujo, do some sort of medical procedures on him or give him some pills and he would be totally fine a perfect dog, would you still kill cujo?

Or would you realize that cujo could be rehabilitated and that because he isnt himself that is the only humane thing to do?

Cujo was crazy in such a way as he couldnt be treated.

Magneto can be treated

[Pro]

Magneto can be treated

Racism is not a form of insanity. Magneto is a racist.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

What made San Marco a military target? What made New York City a military target? What made the Savage Land a military target? (There's another addition to the list of crimes; illegal experimentation on sentient creatures.) What made the Earth's electromagnetic field a military target? What made the hospitals, commercial airliners, and weather observation stations knocked out by his worldwide EMP military targets? What made the medical patients, passengers, and scientists who died when the electronic systems keeping them alive failed not innocent civilians?

San Marco was a human country, ergo military target


If you are refering to planet X with New york city, then you are wrong to do so, that wasnt magneto


The earth's electromagnetic field was a target because the america government attacked Magneto who had isolated himself and sought only to defend himself and mutant kind. He was done with the world. They attacked

To make sure they couldnt again, he destroyed their means. Thats how war works.

Its vicious. its brutal. There is collateral damage.

But Magneto wasnt trying to attack hospitals and commercial jetliners

He was concerned with the satellites that threatened him

[Michael P]

When he does something like firing off the EMP at Earth in X-Men 25 he did it to shut down satellites being used against him. There were collateral damage and humans died, but like the US at war when they cause collateral damage his direct target wasn't civilians.

Those satellites were being used defensively to prevent Magneto using his powers on Earth. They posed no more threat to Avalon than the front lock on my door poses to my neighbors, and his attack was an unprovoked and disproportionate response (he couldn't have taken out just the satellites without affecting anything on Earth? Bullshit) that murdered innocent people.

Is it your opinion that the Rwandan Tutsis slaughtered by the Hutu in their Civil War were "collateral damage?" Because I guarantee you the Hutu saw them the same way Magneto sees the thousands of humans he's killed across the years.

There has never been a formal declaration of war against humanity anywhere besides in Magneto's mind. He is not a general; he is a tin-plated tyrant. And a terrorist.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Racism is not a form of insanity. Magneto is a racist.

No he isnt'

Thats what the Magneto is evil people dont get.

Every time he talks about how mutants are superior and that they must rule because its their birthright, thats not him talking

thats the disease.

[dotdotdot]

San Marco was a human country, ergo military target


If you are refering to planet X with New york city, then you are wrong to do so, that wasnt magneto


The earth's electromagnetic field was a target because the america government attacked Magneto who had isolated himself and sought only to defend himself and mutant kind. He was done with the world. They attacked

To make sure they couldnt again, he destroyed their means. Thats how war works.

Its vicious. its brutal. There is collateral damage.

But Magneto wasnt trying to attack hospitals and commercial jetliners

He was concerned with the satellites that threatened him

but it was meant to be magneto, and that's important.

[dotdotdot]

No he isnt'

Thats what the Magneto is evil people dont get.

Every time he talks about how mutants are superior and that they must rule because its their birthright, thats not him talking

thats the disease.

you really cannot be serious

[Michael P]

San Marco was a human country, ergo military target

The whole freaking country? Take a course in miltary ethics, for Christ's sake!

The earth's electromagnetic field was a target because the america government attacked Magneto who had isolated himself and sought only to defend himself and mutant kind. He was done with the world. They attacked

To make sure they couldnt again, he destroyed their means. Thats how war works.

Its vicious. its brutal. There is collateral damage.

But Magneto wasnt trying to attack hospitals and commercial jetliners

He was concerned with the satellites that threatened him

Magneto was *not* attacked. The systems employed were entirely defensive, and intended to keep *him* from attacking Earth (a reasonable precaution, considering his history). And he could have easily dispatched the satellites using Avalon's weapons systems without endangering a single human life. Instead, he chose a petty, egotistical, melodramatic gesture that murdered innocent people. "Collateral damage," my ass. Collateral damage is when a helicopter falls on a bridge. Killing hospital patients is just brutal, dumbass murder.

[Michael P]

I have to bow out now, or I'm going to give myself an embolism.

[Monty_Cristo]

who gives a ****? Magneto has been an evil terrorist. and Magneto has been a semi-innocent saviour of mankind. can't we all just agree that it depends on the writer? there are more interesting mysteries to solve, at present. like why the **** he's parading around as Masque; if that's what is happening.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

but it was meant to be magneto, and that's important.

No its not

Its not even remotely important. Its not canonically magneto so it has no bearing on this discussion.

And yes i am serious about him being mentally ill. That is canon, and that is important.

The whole freaking country? Take a course in miltary ethics, for Christ's sake!


The government of that country. Once he unsurped it, he was done and wasnt going around killing all the "flatscans"




Magneto was *not* attacked. The systems employed were entirely defensive, and intended to keep *him* from attacking Earth (a reasonable precaution, considering his history). And he could have easily dispatched the satellites using Avalon's weapons systems without endangering a single human life. Instead, he chose a petty, egotistical, melodramatic gesture that murdered innocent people. "Collateral damage," my ass. Collateral damage is when a helicopter falls on a bridge. Killing hospital patients is just brutal, dumbass murder.

Magneto was attacked, by that rooskie jet.

Could have magneto flowed from satellite to satellite and took them out? Sure. But it was very possible that some of his people could have died when he did that. he did the quickest and most effective form of getting rid of the threat

If he was a psycho he would have just launched all the nukes he pulled out of that Russian sub at earth capitals.


Magneto didnt kill hospital patients, he took out technology that caused hospital patients to die.


Question: In how many modern wars have innocent hosptial patients not died? Answer: None

[jmc247]

Its Marvel cannon that Magneto and Polaris suffer power induced insanity. That the use of their magnetic powers over time effects the electromagnetic signals in their brains and unbalances them. Of course Magneto has used far more power over time then Polaris.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/bridezillapage.jpg http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/Polaris2.jpg

[dotdotdot]

Its Marvel cannon that Magneto and Polaris suffer power induced insanity. That the use of their magnetic powers over time effects the electromagnetic signals in their brains and unbalances them. Of course Magneto has used far more power over time then Polaris.


has it said this anywhere about magneto as well or are you projecting?
also, let's say you're right. this makes neither xavier evil nor magneto somehow less of a villain.

[Brian Cronin]

It was "Marvel canon" that Polaris was not Magneto's daughter.

Then it was "Marvel canon" that Polaris was Magneto's daughter.

Tomorrow, it may be "Marvel canon" that Polaris is Magneto's mother. ;)

All Marvel canon is is what the editors/writers decide is canon. Ed Brubaker could write an issue of Uncanny next week that says that the whole "Their powers drive them crazy" thing is a myth, and look, here's a report that says it clearly. Then that would be "Marvel canon."

Magneto as bad guy, Magneto as anti-hero, Magneto as whatever - none of it is "right" or "wrong" when the guy has had so many different portrayals over the years - so citing whatever happens to be "Marvel canon" at the moment isn't all that persuasive.

-Brian

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Sure it does. How can you say that (about magneto, the Xavier being evil is my own spin, and is up for debate in its own way)


Also its clearly stated in the final cc x-men arc before he left originally x-men 1-3

[jmc247]

has it said this anywhere about magneto as well or are you projecting?


Projecting? I think not.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/Xmen-page17.jpg

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

It was "Marvel canon" that Polaris was not Magneto's daughter.

Then it was "Marvel canon" that Polaris was Magneto's daughter.

Tomorrow, it may be "Marvel canon" that Polaris is Magneto's mother. ;)

All Marvel canon is is what the editors/writers decide is canon. Ed Brubaker could write an issue of Uncanny next week that says that the whole "Their powers drive them crazy" thing is a myth, and look, here's a report that says it clearly. Then that would be "Marvel canon."

-Brian

Sure it can be changed, but as of now thats the story. Im not saying any writer cant write anything

If they want to change something, go right ahead.

If its retconned that Magneto's power makes him crazy i wouldnt still cling to it as part of the character. I'd cast it off as easily as i cast off planet x


You can make Magneto the next hitler if you want with the camps and everything, if you set up the time to write that and do the work to make it fit. I dont care. These are fictional characters meant to entertain

Would it be vastly less interesting and compelling? Hell yeah

But some people dig on that black and white no grey area stuff

Fine by me

[dotdotdot]

Sure it does. How can you say that (about magneto, the Xavier being evil is my own spin, and is up for debate in its own way)


Also its clearly stated in the final cc x-men arc before he left originally x-men 1-3

better question: can you find any source that says magneto's contradictory rascism doesn't predate his use of powers?

[dotdotdot]

Sure it can be changed, but as of now thats the story. Im not saying any writer cant write anything

If they want to change something, go right ahead.

If its retconned that Magneto's power makes him crazy i wouldnt still cling to it as part of the character. I'd cast it off as easily as i cast off planet x


You can make Magneto the next hitler if you want with the camps and everything, if you set up the time to write that and do the work to make it fit. I dont care. These are fictional characters meant to entertain

Would it be vastly less interesting and compelling? Hell yeah

But some people dig on that black and white no grey area stuff

Fine by me

the point is: because canon is in flux, what takes precendent are the known intentions of the writers. or at least it's still something to consider.

[dotdotdot]

i thought that story showed that well, moira was wrong.
but yeah, at the time with cortez giving him that power-spike, he was surely out of his head.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

How would magneto know about humans and mutants before he uses his powers?


Regardless whenever he hasnt been using his powers for a while, or is weaker with them (see Excalibur vol 3 or all the stuff leading up to x-men 200) he is not only unracist but is calm and clearly regretful of the things he has done

He even turned himself over to the freedom force to go to trial, as i recall

[jmc247]

better question: can you find any source that says magneto's contradictory rascism doesn't predate his use of powers?

You mean like his hatred of Anya his child oh wait Magneto has always loved Anya and still does even after her death, he also loves Madga to this day and his grandchild Luna even though they are human. In fact most of the people Magneto loved or slept with over the years were human.

Magneto is not racist, even power mad Magneto isn't racist.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

i thought that story showed that well, moira was wrong.
but yeah, at the time with cortez giving him that power-spike, he was surely out of his head.

Moira was wrong about being able to mess with magneto's mind that way

THat was shown when the x-men used her powers

You should re-read the story, its very good. The best x-story ever



As for the intentions of the writers, it doesnt matter unless it gets in the book and stays that way.

If Brubaker retconned magneto power crazy stuff, i wouldnt go back and say CC intended this, so such and such

I'd say Magneto is a racist psycho (but not psycho in the medical sense, just a dick)

[dotdotdot]

How would magneto know about humans and mutants before he uses his powers?


Regardless whenever he hasnt been using his powers for a while, or is weaker with them (see Excalibur vol 3 or all the stuff leading up to x-men 200) he is not only unracist but is calm and clearly regretful of the things he has done

He even turned himself over to the freedom force to go to trial, as i recall

and has since headed way back into racism.

[dotdotdot]

You mean like his hatred of Anya his grandchild oh wait Magneto loves Anya and loves Madga to this day even though she is human in fact most of the people Magneto loved or slept with over the years were human.

Magneto is not racist, even power mad Magneto isn't racist.

you've been reading a different book than the rest of us. magneto loving two humans doesn't mean he hasn't repeatedly shown hatred for the species.

[dotdotdot]

Moira was wrong about being able to mess with magneto's mind that way

THat was shown when the x-men used her powers

You should re-read the story, its very good. The best x-story ever



As for the intentions of the writers, it doesnt matter unless it gets in the book and stays that way.

If Brubaker retconned magneto power crazy stuff, i wouldnt go back and say CC intended this, so such and such

I'd say Magneto is a racist psycho (but not psycho in the medical sense, just a dick)

i've read it many times. but yeah, the writers intentions matter despite canon, as stated above. the reasons we can get into such odd debates where characters seem to be acting at odds with their prior behavior has more to do with useless conflicts with canon and intention than it does with a writer who supposedly doesn't get it.

[jmc247]

you've been reading a different book than the rest of us. magneto loving two humans doesn't mean he hasn't repeatedly shown hatred for the species.

Does Magneto hate human beings? No. He doesn't hate individual humans. He sees them in very large groups and nations as a threat to mutantkind. The kind of threat that could march mutants into the gas chambers that he had to clean out as a child.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

and has since headed way back into racism.

Because his powers do that to him. You're proving my point


i've read it many times. but yeah, the writers intentions matter despite canon, as stated above. the reasons we can get into such odd debates where characters seem to be acting at odds with their prior behavior has more to do with useless conflicts with canon and intention than it does with a writer who supposedly doesn't get it.

No they dont matter. How a writer feels about a character doesnt matter when someone comes along and negates it. Its irrelevant

What is relevant is magnetos reaction when he was told that humans thought he did what he did in planet x: Outrage and disbelief

[Brian Cronin]

I'm just saying that Magneto has had such a checkered characterization history that unless the depiction of the guy is dramatically different (like he becomes a country singer, or he's suddenly Chinese), I don't think it's ever really a problem, so long as the story is good.

If the story is bad, though, then that sucks.

-Brian

[Dagger]

You mean like his hatred of Anya his child oh wait Magneto has always loved Anya and still does even after her death, he also loves Madga to this day and his grandchild Luna even though they are human. In fact most of the people Magneto loved or slept with over the years were human.

Magneto is not racist, even power mad Magneto isn't racist.
People can be racist, and still love their child that's different. Look at that really old guy whose name I can't remember right now in the senate who has a mixed child. And he is like the biggest racist in the country! People can totally be homophobic, yet still love their gay children. You're point doesn't prove that he's not a racist.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

thats certainly true

But again, magneto didnt really know anything about mutants or humans to be racist at that point

and even then, after that his power is in full swing, if he is racist or not is debatable. See these last 6 pages



Also, not really sure racist would be the correct term. Prejudiced fits better

It is also a vastly superior word in scrabble

[Dagger]

Oh, I know, I was just pointing out that just because you love your own child, and still not like someone based on their race or sexual orientation doesn't make you any less prejudiced/racist/homophobic.

[jmc247]

I'm just saying that Magneto has had such a checkered characterization history that unless the depiction of the guy is dramatically different (like he becomes a country singer, or he's suddenly Chinese), I don't think it's ever really a problem, so long as the story is good.


There is certainly truth to that. Magneto goes from a anti hero trying to bring peace to the world under one writer to a genocidal Zarqawi or Hitler type racist madman who wants to herd all humans as well as all mutants that disagree with him into ovens.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/MagnetoNazi.jpg

Magneto in the 60s and early to mid 70s was consistent. Power hungry and very much insane. There was even a comic titled the Madness of Magneto were he kidnaps Blackbolt and spends the entire comic raving like a total madman.

Magneto from the late 70s to the early 1990s was consistent under Claremont as a good man who wanted to protect his race and avoid the horrors he and his family suffered under Hitler. After Claremont left Magneto bounced from writer to writer and there has been much less consistency in the character. Claremont added in Magneto's powers drive him mad to explain his early appearences were he was a very different character. It works to this day to explain some of the things certain writers in the 1990s had him do.

Because Magneto is a villian like Thanos or Doom, Marvel has never had any quality control with the character. So he has three hundred and sixty degree personality changes in his character from one writer to another.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I don't buy Masque is Magneto at all. The Search for Magneto ends with Xavier and Nightcrawler potentially catching up with Magnus as Storm and everyone else deal with Masque and those types.

As for this discussion? If Magneto is so evil, so twisted, so "bad", why did Captain America and the Avengers hand Wanda over to him? What..kind...of...sense...does...that...make? If he's this HORRIBLE TERRORIST who must pay for his crimes at all ends, why did Captain America, Iron Man, and the Avengers at large put that much power directly in his hands? There hasn't been a clear answer for that in the last 2 years.

[jmc247]

I don't buy Masque is Magneto at all. The Search for Magneto ends with Xavier and Nightcrawler potentially catching up with Magnus as Storm and everyone else deal with Masque and those types.

Then what to you think the giant "woman is really a man" plot twist is when it comes to Masque that the Uncanny editor talked about?

And, why does Magneto right side of his face look scarred in the last two pictures of him? Right now most signs point in the direction of another annoying Magneto pretending to be someone else plot twist. But, I would jump for joy if I am wrong.

The biggest sign one way or the other will come in half a month. If Magneto is not on the cover of Uncanny 492 then it will be clear to me that Magneto is deformed. Marvel has never left Magneto off the cover right after a big reveal issue where he returns after being in limbo for a year or two. That includes New X-Men 147 where Magneto was pretending to be Xorn (pre-retcon).

[jmc247]

As for this discussion? If Magneto is so evil, so twisted, so "bad", why did Captain America and the Avengers hand Wanda over to him? What..kind...of...sense...does...that...make? If he's this HORRIBLE TERRORIST who must pay for his crimes at all ends, why did Captain America, Iron Man, and the Avengers at large put that much power directly in his hands?

Well Iron Man is just plain self centered and lazy, but not Cap. Captain America and Magneto have actually had a decient relationship where they respect each other since the 1980s. There is a level of trust and respect there beyond that most of the X-Men, except Xavier have for Magneto.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/magswanda-1.jpg

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I didn't read Uncanny yet so don't SPOIL ANYTHING. I'll read that tomorrow. but artists have been drawing Magneto from his prime to his chronological age for YEARS now. It's just certain artists' style. That was a generation picture too so I wouldn't read anything into it. Last time we saw Magneto in New Avengers, he looked in great shape and young.

Masque is a bumbling idiot who showcases none of the world renown genius that Magneto is known for. Why would be searching for himself? It makes no sense whatsoever. Just too many discrepancies to be true.

[jmc247]

Masque is a bumbling idiot who showcases none of the world renown genius that Magneto is known for. Why would be searching for himself? It makes no sense whatsoever. Just too many discrepancies to be true.

If we are talking about discrepancies and lack of logic there has often been many discrepancies to the plot twists the writers have created for Magneto.

Morrison never explained how Magneto survived the destruction of Genosha when he was in his wheel chair with a severed spine. Nor did he explain how long Magneto was supposed to be pretending to be Xorn, nor what happened to Xorn, nor why Magneto blamed all humans for an act by a mutant, nor why Magneto was snorting mutant drugs and acting like an idiot.

I hope the big plot twist involving Masque that was hinted at doesn't involve Magneto. But, given the use and abuse of the character over time I expect the worst and if the worst doesn't happen I am quite happy. As I said wait a half a month to see the cover of Uncanny 492 that will tell alot.

[dotdotdot]

i'm going to heave if i see the phrase quality control in here again

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

quality control is a great song by Jurassic 5

[jmc247]

i'm going to heave if i see the phrase quality control in here again

quality control

My point using those two words is very simple. Marvel wouldn't have to constantly retcon appearences by Doom, Thanos, and Magneto if they told writers like Morrison no you can't have Magneto doing drugs and herding woman and children into ovens beforehand. It works the same way for making the characters act too good like say having Doom cry at ground zero in Marvel's 911 issue.

Why is it Marvel cannon that Magneto, Lorna, and Wanda's powers drive them mad? To explain away very inconsistent writing of the characters.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/doomcry2.jpg

[dotdotdot]

quality control

My point using those two words is very simple. Marvel wouldn't have to constantly retcon appearences by Doom, Thanos, and Magneto if they told writers like Morrison no you can't have Magneto doing drugs and herding woman and children into ovens beforehand. It works the same way for making the characters act too good like say having Doom cry at ground zero in Marvel's 911 issue.

Why is it Marvel cannon that Magneto, Lorna, and Wanda's powers drive them mad? To explain away very inconsistent writing of the characters.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/doomcry2.jpg

heaven forbid dr doom isn't charcterized correctly in the 9/11 MARVEL TRIBUTE ISSUE.

[jmc247]

heaven forbid dr doom isn't charcterized correctly in the 9/11 MARVEL TRIBUTE ISSUE.

Having Doom cry at ground zero was only a tiny step up from having Red Skull cry at ground zero.

I actually wouldn't mind having Doom cry over losing a loved one like Valaria. That would make far far far more sense for the character then him skinning her and wearing her flesh, which was another abomination Marvel certainly should have put their foot down and stopped before it was ever written.

But, having a character like Doom who doesn't give a damn about innocents he doesn't directly know cry at ground zero seemed wrong to me. However, it wasn't a major event that did real damage to the character like skinning the love of his life and wearing a Valeria suit like Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs. If I was a Marvel editor maybe I would let a writer get away with having Doom cry at ground zero, but no way in hell would I let a writer have Magneto march women and children into ovens or turn Doom into a deranged psychopath as Unthinkable did.

[Blight]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/doomcry2.jpg

Ok call me insane or wrong here since I forgot where I put that issue but.. I seem to remember Romita Jr drawing Magneto in his Uncanny #200 costume in that issue. Again probably so wrong in this thought process given how long I haven't read it but..

eh don't mind then just insane rambling thinking :p

[Dracon]

Doesn't look like his hero costume in the scan. But given his background, I would not consider it out of character for Magneto to have some symphaty there.

With the exception of Charles Xavier, it should be noted that Magneto gets along much better with humans than mutants.

[Magneto Rocks]

Doctor Doom crying in that issue I have no problem with. It was radically out of character but I'm not going to judge that issue. JMS wasn't telling a story in-continuity, he was making a point, he was sending a message and that is something he did magnificently, so I won't quibble.

[Pro]

No he isnt'

Thats what the Magneto is evil people dont get.

Every time he talks about how mutants are superior and that they must rule because its their birthright, thats not him talking

thats the disease.

Nonsense ...

[Pro]

If he was a psycho he would have just launched all the nukes he pulled out of that Russian sub at earth capitals.

Like i said before i think most people realise the difference between Sabretooth, who is a sociopath who lacks empathy entirely and is driven by murderous rage, and Magneto who is a paranoid megalomaniac.

But it doesn't make him any less of a paranoid megalomaniac racist.

I'm not buying that his racism isn't part of his core personality. It is a core belief on which his paranoid megalomania is founded on.

[jmc247]

As for this discussion? If Magneto is so evil, so twisted, so "bad", why did Captain America and the Avengers hand Wanda over to him? What..kind...of...sense...does...that...make? If he's this HORRIBLE TERRORIST who must pay for his crimes at all ends, why did Captain America, Iron Man, and the Avengers at large put that much power directly in his hands? There hasn't been a clear answer for that in the last 2 years.

It is certainly true that the Avengers trusted Magneto with the rough equivelent to a cosmic cube.

[dotdotdot]

It is certainly true that the Avengers trusted Magneto with the rough equivelent to a cosmic cube.

it really wasn't a matter of trust

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Nonsense ...

Read the issues, its as clear as day.

When his power isnt affecting him, he is completely sane,

when it is, he is not


Its all there. Right in the comics. And if you are reading the essentials, i can say, its right there in "black and white"


Every time he is lucid he doesnt talk about homo sapien superiors needing to rule. Its never there.

If you ever want to "buy" that magneto isnt a racist by nature, then "buy" x-men 198-200 or new excalibur, etc

[dotdotdot]

Read the issues, its as clear as day.

When his power isnt affecting him, he is completely sane,

when it is, he is not


Its all there. Right in the comics. And if you are reading the essentials, i can say, its right there in "black and white"


Every time he is lucid he doesnt talk about homo sapien superiors needing to rule. Its never there.

If you ever want to "buy" that magneto isnt a racist by nature, then "buy" x-men 198-200 or new excalibur, etc

nope. it's still coming from a theory of yours, not from the actual books. it's a conclusion you enjoy but it's nowhere explicitly stated or intended.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Well if you think writers intetions are important:

Those were clearly claremonts intentions. So much so that he planned to have magneto lead one of the x-teams along with, oddly enough as i recall, gateway leading the other after he killed xavier.



Regardless of all that i'd ask why you thought he suddenly becomes racist and then not racist all the time, but really i stopped carring too much about this thread

No one is going to win anything here. Lets move on to better and bigger things


Like why red lotus is so awesome

[Erik Lehnsherr]

it really wasn't a matter of trust

It was a matter that they had numbers on him and he still was given the most powerful being on earth without hestitation by the honorable Captain America himself. Yes...Magneto and Cap have a history of Magneto showing Cap respect after he learned he had no bigotry whatsoever against mutants but still...a few months back, the world thought Magneto destroyed NY. If he's such a villian, it doesn't explain why the ULTIMATE character of honor on in Marvel gave him Wanda with his blessing.:)

[dotdotdot]

Well if you think writers intetions are important:

Those were clearly claremonts intentions. So much so that he planned to have magneto lead one of the x-teams along with, oddly enough as i recall, gateway leading the other after he killed xavier.



the only other thing i want to say is yes: those were his intentions........but those stories were mostly decades ago.
the character has moved on, the franchise has moved on.

[Rivka]

Zero information? What do you believe the Uncanny editor was talking about when he said a big plot twist was coming when it comes to Masque (a woman pretending to be a man sort of thing as he said)? One almost has to be blind not to see this coming at this point.

I can't believe Brubaker would do this -- not only is it extremely unoriginal, but it doesn't make much sense. Why would Magneto even use the Morlocks and pretend to be Masque? And then go off searching for himself? Why not just appear as a partially cloaked or masked Magneto (to hide his injuries) and get the Morlocks to follow him?

Here is the solicitation for UNCANNY #491:

UNCANNY X-MEN #491
Written by ED BRUBAKER
Pencils & Cover by SALVADOR LARROCA
"THE EXTREMISTS"
This is it, the final showdown between the X-Men and the terrorist branch of the Morlocks. But how can they win with Warpath and Hepzibah captured and Storm buried under a ton of debris? The future is at stake and it all centers on Magneto. But what role will the former Master of Magnetism play? Part 5 (of 5)
Featuring Endangered Species Chapter 14 - Beast nearly sold his soul to science for a chance to cure the effects of M-Day. But when the rational arts fail him, he turns to the mystical arts and Doctor Strange!
40 PGS./Rated T+ ?$2.99

Do you believe that the Magneto who was sighted (and Xavier saw in the mind of a witness in UNCANNY #489) is Magneto?

I completely agree with you JMC, that it would be not only bad storytelling if it were true, Masque is really Magneto, but a completely unnecessary repeat of some tired old plot that never worked the first two times it was tried.

[Beast]

the only other thing i want to say is yes: those were his intentions........but those stories were mostly decades ago.
the character has moved on, the franchise has moved on.
Wrong. It was again restated in Excalibur Vol. 3.

Not only that, it's stated in the characters bios in the Official Handbooks.

[Rivka]

this horseshit where magneto must be written as a tortured hero or the writer doesn't get him has got to stop. you guys are the ones who have forgotten who this character is, not us.

and i'm mostly taking issue not with your prediction, jmc, but with your way of calling out the twist and then prebitching about it before it takes place.

anyway, endangered species made me enjoy dark beast for the first time. kudos.

No, it is not "horseshit."

It seems you are one of the readers who deliberately refuses to accept the character as he is, since he has been shown fairly consistently. The majority of X-Men readers, and Magneto fans, have a very good grasp of the character, as he's been portrayed "in-Universe." The "real-world" garbage that goes on, regarding Magneto -- and the Magneto-politics at Marvel -- isn't pretty. And it's real. But in-universe, Magneto is indeed a tortured soul, a Jewish Holocaust survivor, a man who tried for years to stay on the path of righteousness, and for a number of reasons, including the affect on his brain of his powers, has failed time and time again to contain his rage, his need for vengeance, or seek help for his psychological problems.

He is an anti-hero, neither a hero nor a villain. But he is the adversary of Xavier, and the X-Men.

What I've been saying for months now, is there are all kinds of wonderfully cool ways, and with great story-telling too, to portray that adversarial relationship without returning to the same old crap of the 1990s and even "Planet X."

Magneto was insane during the real-world Silver Age, and that was a boring, stupid time for the X-Men comics. We don't need to see Magneto like that again.

[Rivka]

there aren't two camps, there doesn't need to be any division like this. there's guys like you who let it upset them that the character has changed a bit again.
it's not one or the other.

edit: the problem is that when events justify magneto's turn towards a terrorist, towards his roots, then claremont decides instantly with no justification to have good fun lighthearted magneto show up a couple of months later. that's why this argument exists.
with different timing (and some purpose), i can't imagine anyone objecting to a more ambiguous magneto, for that's in his history too, but for you guys to squeal about a villain acting, well, villainous.....
go read your back issues or something.

The thing is, Dot, the actual "CHANGE" of the character is the one we saw in EXCALIBUR vol.3, and that's what a few readers (not necessarily yourself) can't accept! The real "change" was seeing Magneto healed (probably by Wanda, who brought him back to life after his died in the Genoshan massacre), and possibly even pacified by Xavier in EXCALIBUR. But then we saw some real honest-to-God characterization for the first time in years, thanks to Bendis and David Hine! I can't thank those writers enough. Magneto was reduced to nothing, everything he has believed in has been stripped from him! Now for the first time in years and years, we have a real organic change in the character, and that's what the die-hard "Magneto is a rat-bastard eeevil villain" can't take, or accept.

Most of us aren't "squealing" about Magneto acting "villainous" -- just that at this particular time, after HOUSE OF M, things have been set up so logically, so aptly, for him to examine himself, and how his previous ways and beliefs are not working! It is completely wrong on so many levels to go back to some Silver Age or 1990s same old tired old Magneto fighting the X-Men story now. And I cannot believe Brubaker would do this.

Claremont did NOT arbitrarily change Magneto into anything in EXCALIBUR. He had a story planned, as he told a friend of mine. There was a reason why Magneto was acting the way he was acting in the few issues of EXCALIBUR vol. 3 we saw.

Magneto is a complex and tortured soul. One of Marvel's greatest characters precisely because of that. His history and continuity are brilliant, and any good writer will know how to use that history and continuity to tell even better stories.

In general, only a hack and/or a bigot would arbitrarily change a character's history and ethnic identity to tell a story because they would be too lazy and shallow to work with the complexity of the character as he or she stands. As far as I can see, Marvel under Joe Quesada doesn't tell stories that way -- the writers respect the ethnicity and history of characters, and try their best to do the characters justice. Someone like Mike Carey deserves all our praise, precisely because he respects these characters that he's playing with at the present time.

[Rivka]

Of course there are.

Different writers have different approaches.

It just isn't a matter of "camps" or anything organized like that.

-Brian

While I agree with you, there aren't necessary "camps," there are indeed camps amongst the creators and editors at Marvel, in the sense that, some want to portray characters a certain way, and others do not.

As to history and continuity of characters, this is Marvel's greatest treasure. The writers can have different "approaches" but they also respect the continuity. As well they should.

With Magneto, there are not different Magnetos in the comics -- there is only one Mags. He's had a fascinating career in-universe, but it makes sense. He is the Jewish Holocaust survivor, who lost his only daughter Anya in a most brutal way. He was clearly insane when we first meet him, when he attacks Cape Citadel. It has been explained in the comics, quite clearly, that his powers have affected his physical brain. But there are many other reasons why he behaves the way he does.

A writer can have a "different approach" to portraying a character, but to arbitrarily do whatever they want, to screw up characterization in a stupid or illogical or even prejudicial way, isn't writing. It's imposing an agenda. WHich is what Morrison tried to do in "Planet X," which is why "Planet X-crement" stunk.

[dotdotdot]

Wrong. It was again restated in Excalibur Vol. 3.

Not only that, it's stated in the characters bios in the Official Handbooks.

that's what i mean. it shouldn't have been restated. that ignored what had been going on with the character for years.

edit: of course, a talented writer could have possibly been able to convince us that there was a reason for magneto to swing back into this earlier characterization, even though the timing was terrible, but claremont simply didn't do this. and you can tell because the only ones who defend this notion of magneto only are claremont apologists who let him get away with anything.

[Rivka]

but they don't divide fans. part of the fanbase chooses to be divided because they don't understand how a character can go through changes. period.

Exactly. And the change Magneto has gone through was being deaged and reaged, and allowed to reexamine his life and values. But he became trapped in his psychological turmoil and trapped by his own powers and how they affect his body. He did NOT return to "villainy" after leaving the New Mutants (as the current HANDBOOK of the Marvel Universe erroneously says), but tried to find some way to save mutants, save himself, and find some kind of personal peace.

Magnus went nuts again, during "Eve of Destruction" -- and then he was given another chance, by Wanda this time, to CHANGE. And he's now going through those changes!

You have to accept that Magneto right now is a very tortured soul, in the Grey Zone forever, and that's where he's been set down in continuity. We want to see this side of him explored FOR A CHANGE. We want to see him portrayed with thoughtfulness and sensitivity FOR A CHANGE. We do not want the Marvel editors and writers to take the lazy, easy way out, and just flip off another Magneto is a rat-bastard attacking the X-Men bwahaha story. The Silver Age is over. It's all about change -- and now is the time for Magneto to be a different man than he was in Eve of Destruction, and he is the sad man, not the bad man, as little Luna saw.

You seem to be the one not able to accept the changes in Magneto. In a few years, maybe it will be time to bring Magneto back to outright terrorist villainy again. But not now. This is not the time either creatively, or logically. And the only way it could happen is if some narrow-minded Silver Age apologists at Marvel want to set back the clock and undo the change and regress.

I hope that doesn't happen. To Magneto or any character!

Do you want to see Jean Grey back with Scott Summers? Do you want to see everything reset back to the way it was?

[Pro]

has failed time and time again to contain his rage, his need for vengeance, or seek help for his psychological problems.

If he has a need for vengeance he is not insane, he's just being a stubborn racist dick who can't let go of his anger and mistrust. Magneto the saint who is corrupted by his power into being a racist paranoid megalomaniac does not exist. Whether or not he is "lucid" he is still basically the same. There were a few times he has tried Xavier's path due to their old friendship and found it unpalpable, not because he is usually insane and stopped using his power and was temporarily cured but because he is a racist. The character's entire history, his entire life, his ideals, his entire personality becomes a load of bull once you label him insane. He is a bitter old man who was shaped by the events in his life, making him mistrustfull towards humans, making him believe the world is better off under his rule, making him frustrated when he is opposed.
No need for insanity, perfectly understandable yet ultimately morally wrong.
Wouldn't hold up in court either.

Lawyer:"My client is insane, judge"
Judge:"What makes you say that?"
Lawyer:"He is a racist, your honor"
Judge:"He is insane because he is a racist .. ?"

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Exactly. And the change Magneto has gone through was being deaged and reaged, and allowed to reexamine his life and values. But he became trapped in his psychological turmoil and trapped by his own powers and how they affect his body. He did NOT return to "villainy" after leaving the New Mutants (as the current HANDBOOK of the Marvel Universe erroneously says), but tried to find some way to save mutants, save himself, and find some kind of personal peace.

Magnus went nuts again, during "Eve of Destruction" -- and then he was given another chance, by Wanda this time, to CHANGE. And he's now going through those changes!

You have to accept that Magneto right now is a very tortured soul, in the Grey Zone forever, and that's where he's been set down in continuity. We want to see this side of him explored FOR A CHANGE. We want to see him portrayed with thoughtfulness and sensitivity FOR A CHANGE. We do not want the Marvel editors and writers to take the lazy, easy way out, and just flip off another Magneto is a rat-bastard attacking the X-Men bwahaha story. The Silver Age is over. It's all about change -- and now is the time for Magneto to be a different man than he was in Eve of Destruction, and he is the sad man, not the bad man, as little Luna saw.

You seem to be the one not able to accept the changes in Magneto. In a few years, maybe it will be time to bring Magneto back to outright terrorist villainy again. But not now. This is not the time either creatively, or logically. And the only way it could happen is if some narrow-minded Silver Age apologists at Marvel want to set back the clock and undo the change and regress.

I hope that doesn't happen. To Magneto or any character!

Do you want to see Jean Grey back with Scott Summers? Do you want to see everything reset back to the way it was?

Another excellent analysis by Rivka yet again.

And it wouldn't hold up court? It has...twice. Magneto Was Right. Which is why he's being pursued for answers by the founder of the X-Men yet again.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

If he has a need for vengeance he is not insane, he's just being a stubborn racist dick who can't let go of his anger and mistrust. Magneto the saint who is corrupted by his power into being a racist paranoid megalomaniac does not exist. Whether or not he is "lucid" he is still basically the same. There were a few times he has tried Xavier's path due to their old friendship and found it unpalpable, not because he is usually insane and stopped using his power and was temporarily cured but because he is a racist. The character's entire history, his entire life, his ideals, his entire personality becomes a load of bull once you label him insane. He is a bitter old man who was shaped by the events in his life, making him mistrustfull towards humans, making him believe the world is better off under his rule, making him frustrated when he is opposed.
No need for insanity, perfectly understandable yet ultimately morally wrong.
Wouldn't hold up in court either.

Lawyer:"My client is insane, judge"
Judge:"What makes you say that?"
Lawyer:"He is a racist, your honor"
Judge:"He is insane because he is a racist .. ?"

Again you miss the point

His power makes him insane, that is proveable in cannon

a more apt example would be

Lawyer: My Client is insane
Judge what makes you say that
Lawyer : Irrefutable scientific evidence

Whether or not a character could conceivable become like magneto without being insane like he is, is irrelevant


If you wish to keep insisting that he is just a racist old man despite all the canonical issues and such to the contrary then there is nothing left to be said



"Whether or not he is lucid, he is basically the same"

Yes because Magneto in x-men 198-200 who went to court instead of fighting is exactly the same as a guy who wants to murder all humans. A lucid magneto who believes in xaviers dream is exactly the same as someone who is completely opposed to it

:rolleyes:

[dotdotdot]

Exactly. And the change Magneto has gone through was being deaged and reaged, and allowed to reexamine his life and values. But he became trapped in his psychological turmoil and trapped by his own powers and how they affect his body. He did NOT return to "villainy" after leaving the New Mutants (as the current HANDBOOK of the Marvel Universe erroneously says), but tried to find some way to save mutants, save himself, and find some kind of personal peace.

Magnus went nuts again, during "Eve of Destruction" -- and then he was given another chance, by Wanda this time, to CHANGE. And he's now going through those changes!

You have to accept that Magneto right now is a very tortured soul, in the Grey Zone forever, and that's where he's been set down in continuity. We want to see this side of him explored FOR A CHANGE. We want to see him portrayed with thoughtfulness and sensitivity FOR A CHANGE. We do not want the Marvel editors and writers to take the lazy, easy way out, and just flip off another Magneto is a rat-bastard attacking the X-Men bwahaha story. The Silver Age is over. It's all about change -- and now is the time for Magneto to be a different man than he was in Eve of Destruction, and he is the sad man, not the bad man, as little Luna saw.

You seem to be the one not able to accept the changes in Magneto. In a few years, maybe it will be time to bring Magneto back to outright terrorist villainy again. But not now. This is not the time either creatively, or logically. And the only way it could happen is if some narrow-minded Silver Age apologists at Marvel want to set back the clock and undo the change and regress.

I hope that doesn't happen. To Magneto or any character!

Do you want to see Jean Grey back with Scott Summers? Do you want to see everything reset back to the way it was?


seriously, the only issue is that the shift to this more grey magneto (i can't stand the terms you guys come up with) was handled so poorly. and haphazardly....in that it ignored the guy's characterization from the last few years, instead of embracing it. it's possible that a competent story could do this for magneto, but that hasn't been written yet.
i look forward to brubaker, carey, and whoever else to using him as he should be used, ignoring claremont's irrelevant version, and casting him as a villain and a racist.
he won't be hopped up on sublime, so it's not as if he's going to try to destroy earth and eat babies, but he's also not going to take over the school anytime soon.
but
the current writers could pull off a story that could convince me otherwise. it's simply all in the execution.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

seriously, the only issue is that the shift to this more grey magneto (i can't stand the terms you guys come up with) was handled so poorly. and haphazardly....in that it ignored the guy's characterization from the last few years, instead of embracing it. it's possible that a competent story could do this for magneto, but that hasn't been written yet.
i look forward to brubaker, carey, and whoever else to using him as he should be used, ignoring claremont's irrelevant version, and casting him as a villain and a racist.
he won't be hopped up on sublime, so it's not as if he's going to try to destroy earth and eat babies, but he's also not going to take over the school anytime soon.
but
the current writers could pull off a story that could convince me otherwise. it's simply all in the execution.

:D :D Comedy. The last time Magneto was seen, he was as sane as it gets. And before that, he was the rational one while Quicksilver was poisoning his daughter with the Terrigan crystals. So...I doubt Brubaker is gonna ingnore that.

No one knows FOR SURE what's the key component of Messiah Complex but it's been confirmed that everything in Uncanny and X-Men is leading to the crossover and that means were going to get some form of Magneto direction when that starts no matter what. But he does return in October and it makes no indication in that solicit that he's going to be leading a war against humans all of a sudden.....

[Rivka]

I know this want happen, but I would like for them switch roles. Make Xavier evil and Magneto good. Xavier being such a evil SOB the past few years needs some type of pay off.

OH yeah, but that's how I tend to see things anyway. :p

(Sorry to my friends who are Xavier fans.)

Okay, I love you guys, my fellow Magneto fans, but I have to disagree with some of you. Magneto is a "mutie terrorist." I'm a big one for backing up characterization in the continuity, and he even says so himself, on a couple of occasions.

Whether or not the terrorist act is committed by "freedom fighters" who haven't formed a nation yet, or by a group based on religion, or race, or whatever, it's still a terrorist act.

Also, it has been confirmed that Magneto's powers affect his mind. Moreover, his brain and physiology have some seriously elevated values, and it is to be presumed, since he will discorporate if he uses too much power (as we saw in X-MEN vol.2, #3), Magneto simply cannot physically handle the power he tries to force himself to handle.

But he is still responsible for his actions! At least since his reaging by Davan Shakari. Maybe earlier, when he was an aging man in his late 60s, drained and and psychotic because of the abuse of his powers (mainly because he was ignorant as to how to control them for years, as he also says), when we first meet him, when Xavier set him up as the ADVERSARY of the X-Men (for his little paramilitary force to practice fighting), maybe then, we can say he had no control over what he had become. All his past traumas and psychological problems and physical damage to his brain overtook him.

But after he was reaged, and he figured out what had happened to him, what is his excuse? As someone on this board said, or maybe it was another board, what can we say about the alcoholic with previous DUIs who knowingly drinks and gets behind the wheel and kills someone?

Is Magneto a "racist"? He never was when he was just Magnus. He actually does get along with non-mutant humans better than his fellow mutants. That is an excellent observation. But there is no doubt that he spouts mutant-supremacist rhetoric. Is this racism? Sort-of. It's mutant-supremacism that he only half believes himself. He's never been the whole-hearted supremacist that some of his followers are, and that they believe he is. That's why someday, he's going to be "found-out" -- that he isn't the "bad guy" that he wants the world to think he is. Now that's really important -- it's been shown often enough in the comics, Magneto deliberately lets others think the worst of him. He wants to have this bad-ass reputation. He has not done half the things the people of Marvel Earth (and many readers) think he has. Even in that Handbook of the Marvel Universe that came out recently, with "Acts of Vengenace" in it -- the way the description of Magneto was worded, the choice of words, was simply wrong. What it says in that entry directly contradicts what the character says in thought balloons and to us the reader on-panel in the comics. But it's this desire to see the worst in him, to think the worst about him, that Magneto -- as the character in the comics -- actually exploits!

There are many psychological reasons for this, and it has nothing to do with his powers, and everything to do with Auschwitz, and growing up in Nazi era Europe for his entire childhood. When you are considered non-human by the Nazis, when you are called anti-Semitic names every minute of every day, and called worthless and scum etc etc in Auschwitz, and then when you join the Sonderkommando to stay alive one more day while keeping the death-machine running smoothly for your masters, you will always be that boy in the striped uniform behind the barbed wire, with no ego, no self-esteem, only self-hate. And that's the basis for nearly everything that goes wrong with Magneto -- his need to make people FEAR him, his need for POWERS (even more than actual power), his need to control everything to the point that he has robot followers instead of living breathing ones, by the time of Magneto War.

[Rivka]

seriously, the only issue is that the shift to this more grey magneto (i can't stand the terms you guys come up with) was handled so poorly. and haphazardly....in that it ignored the guy's characterization from the last few years, instead of embracing it. it's possible that a competent story could do this for magneto, but that hasn't been written yet.
i look forward to brubaker, carey, and whoever else to using him as he should be used, ignoring claremont's irrelevant version, and casting him as a villain and a racist.
he won't be hopped up on sublime, so it's not as if he's going to try to destroy earth and eat babies, but he's also not going to take over the school anytime soon.
but
the current writers could pull off a story that could convince me otherwise. it's simply all in the execution.

I mostly agree with you. (Surprise, surprise.)

And the "Grey Zone" is the term writer and Auschwitz survivor Primo Levy used to describe the Sonderkommando and other prisoners at the death camps who collaborated with the Nazis but who didn't have any choice but collaborate or die. In the comics, Magneto has been described as "grey" (or "gray") many times. It's a perfect one-word description. Now, how "gray" do different fans see him? We argue amongst ourselves endlessly about how gray is gray.

As to Brubaker and Carey, and the other excellent writers at Marvel at this time, I do disagree with you about wanting them to just return Magneto at this time to being a "racist villain." I want to see Mags and his psychology explored. I want to see him given a chance to redeem himself at this time. But that does not mean he's a nice guy! He is a very troubled man, and has all kinds of serious psychological issues. He is never going to be a sweetie-pie.

One thing I NEVER want to see again, is Magneto working with Xavier, or being headmaster of the school, or working with the X-Men. At this point, that has to be water under the bridge. And if Magnus finds out that Cassandra Nova, Xavier's twin that he kept secret, is the one responsible for Genosha -- or if he knows now -- he will never forgive Xavier or work with him again. Or rather, he shouldn't. Moreover, I think Xavier has been messing with his mind. And we've seen ample evidence of what Magneto thinks about someone messing with his mind and trying to control him.

[dotdotdot]

I mostly agree with you. (Surprise, surprise.)

And the "Grey Zone" is the term writer and Auschwitz survivor Primo Levy used to describe the Sonderkommando and other prisoners at the death camps who collaborated with the Nazis but who didn't have any choice but collaborate or die. In the comics, Magneto has been described as "grey" (or "gray") many times. It's a perfect one-word description. Now, how "gray" do different fans see him? We argue amongst ourselves endlessly about how gray is gray.

As to Brubaker and Carey, and the other excellent writers at Marvel at this time, I do disagree with you about wanting them to just return Magneto at this time to being a "racist villain." I want to see Mags and his psychology explored. I want to see him given a chance to redeem himself at this time. But that does not mean he's a nice guy! He is a very troubled man, and has all kinds of serious psychological issues. He is never going to be a sweetie-pie.

One thing I NEVER want to see again, is Magneto working with Xavier, or being headmaster of the school, or working with the X-Men. At this point, that has to be water under the bridge. And if Magnus finds out that Cassandra Nova, Xavier's twin that he kept secret, is the one responsible for Genosha -- or if he knows now -- he will never forgive Xavier or work with him again. Or rather, he shouldn't. Moreover, I think Xavier has been messing with his mind. And we've seen ample evidence of what Magneto thinks about someone messing with his mind and trying to control him.

see i think we can agree is that he's in good hands now, and what has seemed contradictory before is likely not going to be a problem anytime soon.

[Monty_Cristo]

One thing I NEVER want to see again, is Magneto working with Xavier, or being headmaster of the school, or working with the X-Men. At this point, that has to be water under the bridge. And if Magnus finds out that Cassandra Nova, Xavier's twin that he kept secret, is the one responsible for Genosha -- or if he knows now -- he will never forgive Xavier or work with him again. Or rather, he shouldn't. Moreover, I think Xavier has been messing with his mind. And we've seen ample evidence of what Magneto thinks about someone messing with his mind and trying to control him.

i'm a big Magneto fan but i think the relationship with Xavier makes him more interesting. if Xavier has been messing with his mind, it's out of a twisted sense of friendship. they've both done somewhat unforgivable things to one another, in the past (imo). maybe a job at the school isn't the ticket but i don't want to always see Magneto and the X-Men at odds. when that happens, it's easy to paint Eric