The New Gods........not quite dead?

[Sean Walsh]

According to a fellow Fourth Worlder (via the NGMB; link below in my sig), he asked Grant Morrison at San Diego about the future of the New Gods. I'll repost here what he told me and fellow message boarders:

"He said that they'll play a major role in Final Crisis, that he's kind of ignoring Starlin's Death of the New Gods mini, and that he's taking the reimagining of the New Gods that he did in Seven Soldiers to an all new level.

So, from what I can put together, the Death of the New Gods is of their original Kirby-imagined forms, but they will still be part of the DCU. That part is my supposition. It's a guess."

(And he's a trustworthy poster/fellow moderator, so this isn't just make believe stuff; he talked to Grant.)

[DaeJi]

That's.... well, it's kind of a slap in the face to Starlin, unless Death of the New Gods was suppost to be self-contained. And really, Morrison's reimaging of the New Gods in Seven Soldiers was horrid and the worse part of the series. But this may be a misunderstaning, and we need to wait to see what happens before we can start guessing at anything.

[Joe Rice]

According to a fellow Fourth Worlder (via the NGMB; link below in my sig), he asked Grant Morrison at San Diego about the future of the New Gods. I'll repost here what he told me and fellow message boarders:

"He said that they'll play a major role in Final Crisis, that he's kind of ignoring Starlin's Death of the New Gods mini, and that he's taking the reimagining of the New Gods that he did in Seven Soldiers to an all new level.

So, from what I can put together, the Death of the New Gods is of their original Kirby-imagined forms, but they will still be part of the DCU. That part is my supposition. It's a guess."

(And he's a trustworthy poster/fellow moderator, so this isn't just make believe stuff; he talked to Grant.)

Excellent . . .sounds very good. Glad to see Morrison knows when not to pay attention to a story. The tip of the iceberg New Gods seen in Seven Soldiers was an interesting lead on what will likely be something very nice indeed.

[Cayman]

That's.... well, it's kind of a slap in the face to Starlin, unless Death of the New Gods was suppost to be self-contained.

And a well-deserved one, if so, for Starlin agreeing to such a project in the first place.

[DaeJi]

And a well-deserved one, if so, for Starlin agreeing to such a project in the first place.

Well, if DC wanted it to get done, they wouldn't have stopped if Starlin had said no. They would just keep searching until a writer said yes.

[Joe Rice]

Well, if DC wanted it to get done, they wouldn't have stopped if Starlin had said no. They would just keep searching until a writer said yes.

"Just following orders"?

[DaeJi]

"Just following orders"?

No, being offered a job and taking it.

[Joe Rice]

No, being offered a job and taking it.

If it's that impersonal, it's hardly a slap in the face.

[DaeJi]

If it's that impersonal, it's hardly a slap in the face.

Prehaps, prehaps not. From what we know Morrison was offered the job of writing Final Crisis; it wasn't his brain child (that we know of). So, should any writer decide to ignore what he does there it wouldn't be a slap in the face, right?

Though, I think the decision of what to keep and what to drop will ultimately fall to DC, and if they want Morrison to use Death of the New Gods for Final Crisis and not undo it he'll have to use Death of the New Gods for Final Crisis and not undo it. It is the editors, not the writers and artist, who control the DC universe :(

[Joe Rice]

Prehaps, prehaps not. From what we know Morrison was offered the job of writing Final Crisis; it wasn't his brain child (that we know of). So, should any writer decide to ignore what he does there it wouldn't be a slap in the face, right?

Though, I think the decision of what to keep and what to drop will ultimately fall to DC, and if they want Morrison to use Death of the New Gods for Final Crisis and not undo it he'll have to use Death of the New Gods for Final Crisis and not undo it. It is the editors, not the writers and artist, who control the DC universe :(

Morrison's the creative director still, right? I doubt he had nothing to do with Final Crisis from the outset.

[Cayman]

Morrison has had his contributions to comics ignored or undone many times. It's one of the potential pitfalls of working in a shared universe.

[Magneto Rocks]

Ah Thank God. Starlin writes good cosmic Marvel but after Cosmic Odyssey I'm wary at best of his take on the New Gods. Morrison, on the other hand, truly "gets" them, which was ingeniusly proven in the perfect slogan "Darkseid Is" and the entire ROck of Ages arc.

So on the one hand, a minor boo to ignoring the first New Gods mini in years.

On the other hand, a tremendous YES! for their continued place in the DCU and the (Hopefully) presence of Darkseid in Final Crisis! There are many things I'm wary about Morrison getting his hands on for a universe shifting crossover but the Fourth World is NOT one of them. Best DC news since Waid on Flash for me!

[Nyssane]

That's.... well, it's kind of a slap in the face to Starlin, unless Death of the New Gods was suppost to be self-contained. And really, Morrison's reimaging of the New Gods in Seven Soldiers was horrid and the worse part of the series. But this may be a misunderstaning, and we need to wait to see what happens before we can start guessing at anything.

It's kind of a slap in the face to Kirby for a writer to kill off all the characters he worked so hard to create and explore. :p I'm not a big fan of Morrison's New Gods, but it's better than having all of them wiped out.

[Jack Book]

I'm very glad. A Morrison revamp is a great way to handle characters no one has been able to do anything with since Kirby.

And because I really loved the New Gods stuff in Seven Solders.

[Will.S]

I hope that Starlin's New Gods and Morrison's use of them won't become too conflicting and it becomes more of a situation with Marvel and Thor. Oeming gave Thor and end with a possible new beginning, the baton was then passed to JMS and Coipel to bring him back in a different look and use a different type of setting.

That would be most ideal.

BTW didn't Jack Kirby have an end planned for the New Gods anyway?

[DaeJi]

I hope that Starlin's New Gods and Morrison's use of them won't become too conflicting and it becomes more of a situation with Marvel and Thor. Oeming gave Thor and end with a possible new beginning, the baton was then passed to JMS and Coipel to bring him back in a different look and use a different type of setting.

That would be most ideal.

I agree.

BTW didn't Jack Kirby have an end planned for the New Gods anyway?

Yep, he had the whole Fourth World thing planned out, from beginning to end. But the series was pulled before he could get that far, and it was left to become what it is now. He also had an ending planned for the Eternals; sadly, it would go the way of the Fourth World.

[Shellhead]

I wasn't thrilled with Morrison's ghetto version of the New Gods, but I have to admit that he made Darkseid truly scary. Heroes would be a lot more afraid of Darkseid if they knew that defeat would result in castration and/or various crippling injuries.

[Froggy]

I agree.



Yep, he had the whole Fourth World thing planned out, from beginning to end. But the series was pulled before he could get that far, and it was left to become what it is now. He also had an ending planned for the Eternals; sadly, it would go the way of the Fourth World. any hint on the end for the ETernals

[DaeJi]

any hint on the end for the ETernals

Not that I'm aware of; they are actually getting a new series.

[Froggy]

Not that I'm aware of; they are actually getting a new series.

I meant like, you said Kirby had a ending for them like he did for the new gods

[DaeJi]

I meant like, you said Kirby had a ending for them like he did for the new gods

Oh, yeah, that. Yes, Kriby didn't mean for the Eternals to go on indefinitely. It fact, they weren't even suppost to be part of the 616 universe, but after the series was cancelled they were written in.

[Ryan Day]

First, I think any creator who's worked in the industry for more than five years has been "slapped in the face" on many occasions. Thankfully, most of them don't take it as personally as the fans.

Second... I don't see why Starlin & Morrison's books have to be contradictory. After all, Morrison's New Gods had already fallen when he introduced them in Mr. Miracle.

[Shellhead]

Oh, yeah, that. Yes, Kriby didn't mean for the Eternals to go on indefinitely. It fact, they weren't even suppost to be part of the 616 universe, but after the series was cancelled they were written in.

Isn't that the Hulk on the cover of Eternals #14? Or, if memory serves, a Hulk robot? Either way, that's a pretty strong indication that the Eternals were in the 616 universe even before the cancellation of the series.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/29921775528.14.gif

[DaeJi]

Isn't that the Hulk on the cover of Eternals #14? Or, if memory serves, a Hulk robot? Either way, that's a pretty strong indication that the Eternals were in the 616 universe even before the cancellation of the series.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/29921775528.14.gif

It was a robot; I believe it was a tongue in cheek reference to the Marvel universe.

[Jack Zodiac]

I'm glad Morrison's going to ignore whatever end or "death" Starlin has in store for the New Gods. Both have written them in the past, and Starlin's made it completely clear that he doesn't get Orion, he doesn't get Darkseid, and he doesn't get the idea of Anti-Life. Morrison, on the other hand, completely gets the characters, understands their scale and how traditional superheroes should measure up to them, but most importantly, he gets Darkseid, and he gets Life and Anti-Life. For everything else Seven Soldiers was, it was also an homage to Kirby and his grand ideas on a human level, as perfectly demonstrated in the ending.

The idea of Morrison Final Crisis just keeps getting better and better.

[Phoney Bone]

As long as both versions have good story-telling in the writing and art, it doesn't matter if Morrison ignores Starlin's version or not. Being a professional, I doubt Starlin cares either. That's where reader-selective continuity comes into play.

I'm not going to let characterization Starlin wrote two decades ago determine whether I buy his new series or not.

Just look at the pile of crap character Orion was in JLA. That doesn't keep me from looking forward to Morrison using him in Final Crisis .

[Babylon23]

Yep, he had the whole Fourth World thing planned out, from beginning to end. But the series was pulled before he could get that far, and it was left to become what it is now. He also had an ending planned for the Eternals; sadly, it would go the way of the Fourth World.

Kirby did write an ending to the New Gods series, in the form of his original version of the graphic novel that became the Hunger Dogs. DC asked him to rework it into the story that was eventually published, leaving things open for the characters to continue to appear in the DCU.

I believe DC will be publishing the original, unedited Hunger Dogs story in the final Fourth World omnibus, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Oh, yeah, that. Yes, Kriby didn't mean for the Eternals to go on indefinitely. It fact, they weren't even suppost to be part of the 616 universe, but after the series was cancelled they were written in.

From what I've read (probably in the Jack Kirby Collector), I believe Kirby intended Eternals to be completely separate, but Marvel pressured him into including them in the Marvel U. He made some token references towards the latter part of the series, including the Hulk robot.

As for Morrison and Starlin,l I don't see why both stories can't stand alongside one another. The New Gods in their current form 'die', and there energies/lifeforce/whatever are reborn in Morrison's verison of the characters.

[Pink Bat Max]

That's.... well, it's kind of a slap in the face to Starlin, unless Death of the New Gods was suppost to be self-contained. And really, Morrison's reimaging of the New Gods in Seven Soldiers was horrid and the worse part of the series. But this may be a misunderstaning, and we need to wait to see what happens before we can start guessing at anything.

It REALLY was absolutely horrid.

But we'll see what the end result is. I somehow doubt that nobody will ever want to write Kirby's New Gods ever again. Darkseid and Apokalips are just toooooooo epic.

[Sean Walsh]

And a well-deserved one, if so, for Starlin agreeing to such a project in the first place.

The idea of killing the New Gods doesn't upset me.....it was more of Starlin's tone in that (now infamous) Newsarama interview where he kinda backhands the whole group of them.

I mean, if they asked Walt Simonson to be the guy to kill the New Gods, I wouldn't have a problem because I know his history with the characters and know he'd do a hell of a job sending these guys to their glorious deaths.

...so I guess Starlin *will* never be able to live down COSMIC ODYSSEY...

[Sean Walsh]

I wasn't thrilled with Morrison's ghetto version of the New Gods, but I have to admit that he made Darkseid truly scary. Heroes would be a lot more afraid of Darkseid if they knew that defeat would result in castration and/or various crippling injuries.

Fellow CBRer Wesley Dodds said it best, man... (see my sig - that quote will be there FOREVER)

[Sean Walsh]

Isn't that the Hulk on the cover of Eternals #14? Or, if memory serves, a Hulk robot? Either way, that's a pretty strong indication that the Eternals were in the 616 universe even before the cancellation of the series.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/29921775528.14.gif

That was like the Hulk reference in an early issue of Larry Hama's GI JOE: it was meant more to acknowledge that Marvel exists in the GI Joe universe........but it's not real; it's a comic book.

[Sean Walsh]

Just look at the pile of crap character Orion was in JLA. That doesn't keep me from looking forward to Morrison using him in Final Crisis .

I believe Grant (and Mark Waid, whose version of Orion has even lower regards in fans' eyes) said that they were basically told to have him act that way -- even though, at the time, Orion was not acting like that in Byrne's New Gods series.

(And I think Orion's JLA inclusion and attitude was why Byrne left JACK KIRBY'S FOURTH WORLD...)

[ultramandingo]

I believe DC will be publishing the original, unedited Hunger Dogs story in the final Fourth World omnibus, but I'm not 100% sure on that.



........thats what i read too , speakin of reading the forth world stuff - i figure morrisons the only one nutty efuff to make that stuff work - i hope he brings back goody rickels!

[Babylon23]

........thats what i read too , speakin of reading the forth world stuff - i figure morrisons the only one nutty efuff to make that stuff work - i hope he brings back goody rickels!

Walt Simonson worked wonders with the New Gods in his Orion series. He played with concepts of mythology, much like he did with his Thor series.

Morrison's definitely one of the few people that could potentially match the sheer creativity the King showed on New Gods.

[Peter Svensson]

So I'm the one who talked to Grant Morrison. Thanks for crossposting Sean. I forget these boards exist at times.

Now, from the tone Grant used it seems more like he's working around Starlin's project than just completely ignoring it. But it is strange that the mini wasn't advertised or promoted at all at the cons.

Oh, and Sean will like this. I got DC to print the Mark Millar/Steve Ditko Orion backup. :D

[Sean Walsh]

Oh, and Sean will like this. I got DC to print the Mark Millar/Steve Ditko Orion backup. :D

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh yeah, I need details.

[berk]

what they should have done was asked Morrison to write the New Gods solo mini and Starlin the Crisis thing. As it is, the New Gods appearances in Crisis will be hampered by the fact that it's a series about the DCU, not the New Gods, so the story will probably have more to do with Superman and Batman and so on, with the ever-present risk that Orion, et al will play their usual role as stooges meant to make the popular characters look cool for the fans.

[Expletive Deleted]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh yeah, I need details.I think it was supposed to run in Simonson's ORION series (like the Frank Miller backup in #3, the Dave Gibbons one in #4, and so on), but fell through the cracks. No idea on the details, though.

[Peter Svensson]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh yeah, I need details.

I asked at a panel if DC would publish it, and Bob Wayne went "If that story was completed then I've got the place to publish it." And since it was completed, since it was commissioned before Walt began work on the main Orion book itself, it should see print in the near future.

That's a Mark Millar and Steve Ditko New Gods backup that was written after Walt Simonson told the editor that he wanted to have backup stories but before he specified that he wanted backups that related to the issue. And the series was cancelled before that backup could ever get used. It's been sitting in a drawer somewhere at DC for years. I've mentioned it to editors at DC for the past three years but only now is there likely to be results.

[AllisterH]

Not to be rude but have you guys actually read DARKSEID since Crisis? Starlin was truly doing a mercy killing there and frankly, everyone else seems intent on ignoring the Morriso-designed new gods.

[Peter Svensson]

Not to be rude but have you guys actually read DARKSEID since Crisis? Starlin was truly doing a mercy killing there and frankly, everyone else seems intent on ignoring the Morriso-designed new gods.
Yes. I read Walt Simonson's Orion where Darkseid and the other New Gods were written quite well. And while yes, there have been many bad uses of those characters, I'd rather just not use them instead of kill them off. But hey, we'll see what the future has in store.

[Sean Walsh]

I asked at a panel if DC would publish it, and Bob Wayne went "If that story was completed then I've got the place to publish it." And since it was completed, since it was commissioned before Walt began work on the main Orion book itself, it should see print in the near future.

And I'm assuming DEATH OF THE NEW GODS is that place - since DC announced each issue is gonna be the size of books like MYSTERY IN SPACE and TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED...which all had backups... :D

[berk]

Not to be rude but have you guys actually read DARKSEID since Crisis? Starlin was truly doing a mercy killing there and frankly, everyone else seems intent on ignoring the Morriso-designed new gods.Don't be surprised if Starlin's 'mercy-killing' turns out to be as atrocious as the very worst of the post-Kirby treatments these characters, e.g. Starlin's own Cosmic Odyssey.