JLAvengers League: Joe Acro vs. ragnarok_2012/Mike Smash!

[Sean Whitmore]

Welcome to the semi-finals of the 2007 JLAvengers League! The League is a large-scale series of battles—a tournament—where posters draft teams and pit their teams against that of other posters, and you vote to decide who wins. When voting, please consider the strategies the players have written, rather than just the team's roster.

Each match takes place in a different locale from the Marvel or DC Universe. The teams begin 100 yards away from each other. Each character is depicted as they were in the JLA/Avengers mini series (with few exceptions), and the characters have to act in character (meaning that the heroes cannot kill if they aren't normally wont to do so)

If you have any questions about the strategies, please feel free to post these questions here, and the players will answer. The match will last twenty-four hours. After that time period, the player with the largest number of votes wins.

NOTE - For your vote to count, you must have a post count of no lower than fifty.

ragnarok_2012/Mike Smash!: Sinestro, Hulk, Felix Faust, Black Alice, Namor, Mary Marvel, Terrax

Joe Acro: Hal Jordan, Dr. Strange, Red Tornado, Predator, Sabra
Jericho, Taskmaster

[Sean Whitmore]

Joe Acro's strategy:

Setup the Fury:

Green Lantern starts by providing everyone, save Predator, with a forcefield, in order to help block the powerful attacks that will likely be used.
Dr. Strange has the Eye of Agamotto detach from himself and go to Jericho, positioning itself between his two eyes. At the same time, he begins working on a spell.
If there are no forcefields or shields in the way, Taskmaster will quickly take aim and fire an arrow straight at Black Alice, a lethal shot.


Unleash the Fury:

Using the Eye of Agamotto's unavoidable, compelling stare, Jericho will establish contact with Felix Faust and possess him.
Dr. Strange casts the Images of Ikonn on Sinestro, a spell he used in Fantastic Four #243 to confront Galactus with the ghosts of all those he had slain. Although Sinestro has not killed anywhere near as many as Galactus, it should still have a profound affect, a maddening, horrifying affect. At the very least, this will distract Sinestro long enough for Strange to hit him with other damaging spells.
Sabra rushes after Mary Marvel. In the process, if Black Alice was not taken down in the previous shot, she fires a couple of paralyzing energy quills her direction as one should be enough to incapacitate her. She likely engages in combat quite quickly.
Green Lantern tosses Taskmaster and Predator across the field in a giant paper airplane while covering Terrax's eyes with a sleep mask construct, acting as a blindfold.
If the Images of Ikonn spell is considered a high-yield spell, and therefore requiring more time than normal, Green Lantern will distract Sinestro for as long as necessary.
Taskmaster, just before and while traveling, gets Hulk's attention via the use of explosive and sonic arrows.


Fighting with Fury:

If Black Alice still isn't down (for some reason), Jericho, with his knowledge from his martial arts training, will hit her with a knockout blow, using the element of surprise.
Red Tornado cuts loose on the blinded Terrax in a battle of the elements. Green Lantern and the now-controlled Faust join him in handling the cosmic threat. GL's assignment is to get the staff out of his hand. Tornado's is to keep him off-balance. Both GL and Tornado will make sure to contain the rock-throwing. Jericho-Faust's job is to actually hurt him, if only mildly, through the use of spells.
Predator engages Namor. If he must leap to do so, he will.
Taskmaster rushes toward Hulk. Copying the fighting styles of Spider-Man, Captain America, Daredevil, and other fighers who have successfully avoided Hulk's blows without being injured, Taskmaster ducks and dodges around the behemoth. When the opportunity strikes, he pinches nerve clusters in key locations to, at the very least, slow the Hulk down. When he gets the opportunity, he will pop an arrow of knockout gas as Hulk has proven susceptible to gas attacks in the past.
Sabra will use her speed and agility to avoid any speed-blitzing Mary might do. Sabra is durable enough to take a blow from the Hulk, so she should be able to take a few blows from Mary Marvel if necessary. Also, her healing factor will help her recover quickly. She will use her quills whenever Mary gets in close enough. After being hit with enough of them, even Mary Marvel should become immobilized.


After the Fury:

If Taskmaster can defeat the Hulk without help, as planned, he will join Predator against Namor.
If Strange successfully defeats his foe, he will join the fray against Terrax. The same can be said for Sabra.
Taskmaster has been instructed, if Terrax and Namor are too much to handle, to mortally wound Predator and cause his nuke to activate. At the very least, it should knock out Namor and damage Terrax. The Lantern-created forcefields should take most of the force of the blast. This is only a last resort.
When all enemies are down, my team claims the artifact and victory.

[Sean Whitmore]

IMMEDIATELY:

At once, Black Alice will steal the mystical powers and vestments of Dr. Strange and the Juggernaut (whose powers comes from the magical gem of Cyttorak). This will leave Dr. Strange powerless and unarmed (and will save our team’s sorcerer, Felix Faust, from the possibility of a mystical battle with the Sorceror Supreme, one we’re not certain Faust could win). This should only take a couple seconds.

Felix Faust will focus his mystical energies on bombarding the mind and soul of Green Lantern Hal Jordan with his deepest fears and failures (the death of his father, the destruction of Coast City, etc.). Those secrets are locked in Jordan’s mind and Faust’s magic will find it and will be unrelenting in drawing those fears out. Given that Jordan has a powerful mind and will, this could be a fight. If successful, this should not only make it difficult to focus his will through his power ring, but the fear will leave his power ring useless against yellow. He will keep his eyes closed while casting this spell.

Sinestro and Terrax will take to the sky and charge into battle against our opponents.

Terrax will immediately use his Power Cosmic-level earth manipulation powers to make the very ground beneath our opponents feet EXPLODE, sending many of our opponents flying and pelting them with large chunks of earth and rock if they are unshielded or if their shield doesn’t have a floor. Imagine a giant tornado-without any defined center-trapping Joe’s team inside it.

This should blast up a thick cloud of dust around our opponents’ team, making it impossible for Jericho to make eye contact with anyone. If Red Tornado is using his powers, this should only keep the dust cloud going as the loosened earth from the explosion will certainly get caught in his powers. Unless
Red Tornado powers out of the storm somehow, his attacks are pretty much useless.

Sinestro will command his yellow power ring to lock on to the energy signature of Hal Jordan’s power ring. Sinestro will form a yellow, barbed wire noose around the throat of Hal. Keep in mind that Hal is fighting a battle of wills with Felix Faust AND Sinestro at this point.

Sinestro will use the barbed wire noose to pull him out of Terrax’s storm and relatively far away from the rest of the action. If Jordan’s ring has been rendered harmless against yellow, this should be fairly effortless. If he isn’t yet subject to Faust’s fear spell and Jordan has a force field up, Sinestro’s beam will simply drill into the forcefield until it can grab Jordan in the noose. But the double attack of Faust on his mind and Sinestro physically, should make this attack successful.

The Incredible Hulk, Mary Marvel and Namor, the Sub-Mariner will stand guard over Faust and Alice while they are vulnerable, throwing themselves in the way of any energy beams or attacks that comes their way or against foes who come too close to our team. Mary seems a lot more chipper about this task than either Hulk or Prince Namor.

ROUND ONE:

Now wielding the power of both the unstoppable Juggernaut and the Sorceror Supreme, Black Alice will form an opaque force field around herself and Faust. She will use her magic seek out Jericho and form an unbreakable opaque force bubble around his head, blinding him and making it impossible for him to use his powers on anyone.

Felix Faust will continue his fear-based magical assault on Hal Jordan. No, we don’t consider this a major effect so much as an ongoing battle of wills that Hal will eventually lose like the value of a 90’s Liefeld comic.

Assuming that Jericho has now been dealt with, Terrax will bombard our opponent’s team from the air with cosmic blasts from his axe, more explosions from the ground to keep the earth storm/dust cloud up. Giant, earthen hands will pull Joe’s teammates into the ground. With Jericho finished, Terrax will prioritize Red Tornado, using his cosmic axe to warp and meld his inner circuitry together and blasting him apart with his axe. Terrax has withstood the most powerful forces in the universe and should be able to fight against any massive wind attack This is, of course, assuming that the storm hasn’t already incapacitated him-Red Tornado is not especially durable after all.

Sinestro will pull Lantern Jordan into the air by the throat with a barbed wire noose and dogfight him in a good old fashioned power-ring duel. He will be ruthless, pounding Jordan with vicious yellow constructs and energy blasts. Sinestro will form fierce, Cthulu-like creatures, rain shards of monomolecular glass upon Hal, and use the surrounding territory of Avengers Mansion to his advantage.

Sinestro will try to keep Jordan from being able to maintain any shield constructs around his team and from being able to help them in any way. Although Sinestro will do everything in his power to destroy Hal, our primary purpose is to keep Jordan from being able to help his teammates. We think Sinestro and Faust in tandem can defeat Hal.

The Hulk, Mary Marvel and Namor will charge into battle against the remaining team.

Mary will prioritize the now-blinded Jericho and knock him out as painlessly as possible. If he is already unconscious, she will seek out the Predator (with her enchanced senses if he’s invisible) and knock him out quickly with speed of Mercury and the Strength of Hercules. Mary will make sure that the Predator is unable to trigger his pocket nuke.

Namor will also prioritize now-blinded Jericho, but if he is unconscious, he will attack Sabra and will be able to overpower her easily and probably say something really arrogant and pithy.

The Hulk will also prioritize Jericho, but if he is unconscious, he will attack the Taskmaster, smashing the ground around him, not letting him get any footing, using the sonic thunderclap to knock him off balance and trying to get a good shot in. Taskmaster is incredibly skilled at fighting and dodging (he steals from the best), but it’s only a matter of time before the Hulk gets his hands on him and puts him down.

If any of them manage to defeat their foe, they will join an attack on another character, as most needed.


ROUND TWO:

Black Alice will teleport out of her force field and into the opposition’s midst and begin blasting them with hex bolts, fire, ice, magical energy and ensnaring them in the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak, as the opportunity arises.

Terrax will turn his full attention to Red Tornado and will use his cosmic axe to warp, meld and rend his internal circuitry to shreds. This coupled with his speed, endurance and cosmic blasts should be enough to destroy the android.

If Sinestro has defeated Green Lantern, he will attack Red Tornado with EMP blasts and white-hot (well, yellow-hot) energy beams to tear his android body apart. If the Tornado has already been defeated, he will destroy the equipment of the Predator (just in case Mary was unable to handle the pocket nuke).

Hulk, Namor and Mary will continue to battle the remaining foes until they all fall.

[ragnarok_2012]

Question:

Would Taskmaster be willing to commit suicide?

I mean, he's a mercenary.

I'm a little skeptical of Taskmaster defeating the Hulk in one-on-one combat. Okay, I have no idea how he could possibly defeat the Hulk with nerve cluster attacks.

[Joe Acro]

A few things, just looking at Black Alice's initial action:

Black Alice shouldn't be able to steal Strange's vestments and artifacts, just his mystical abilities. And given that the gem of Cytorrak isn't on Strange's person, I find it doubtful that she'd be able to have Juggernaut's power even if she could steal Strange's items.

Also, given that Taskmaster has trick arrows, I find it likely that his initial arrow shot will hit its mark. Would Strange's powers return to him upon her death?

I'll work on other details a little later. I just wanted to cover that opening.

[Joe Acro]

Question:

Would Taskmaster be willing to commit suicide?

I mean, he's a mercenary.

I'm a little skeptical of Taskmaster defeating the Hulk in one-on-one combat. Okay, I have no idea how he could possibly defeat the Hulk with nerve cluster attacks.Taskmaster wouldn't be committing suicide, as he'd have a Green Lantern forcefield and his own shield protecting him. He'd be hurting, sure, but likely wouldn't be dead.

And the nerve cluster tactic is used to slow down the Hulk in order to hit him with gas, something that has been shown to stop the Hulk.

[Mike Smash!]

A few things, just looking at Black Alice's initial action:

Black Alice shouldn't be able to steal Strange's vestments and artifacts, just his mystical abilities. And given that the gem of Cytorrak isn't on Strange's person, I find it doubtful that she'd be able to have Juggernaut's power even if she could steal Strange's items.

She can steal his magical equipment and has done this in the past. She stole the power of Wonder Woman and got her lasso. She stole the power of Alan Scott and got his power ring. So, she'd get Strange's spellcasting as well as his levitation cloak, the Eye of Agamatto and other magical items.

As for the gem of Cyttorak, she's not stealing it from Strange. She's stealing it from Juggernaut. We can steal the magical powers and equipment of any characters currently on the battlefield with us or on the roster for the universe we're currently in.


Also, given that Taskmaster has trick arrows, I find it likely that his initial arrow shot will hit its mark. Would Strange's powers return to him upon her death?I think they'd return to him upon death, but with a superfast Mary Marvel ready and waiting for a physical attack to jump in front of, that arrow would break on her chest, not in BLack Alice. We have three heroes ready and waiting to dive in the way of attacks, who that arrow would not kill.

[Mike Smash!]

Taskmaster wouldn't be committing suicide, as he'd have a Green Lantern forcefield and his own shield protecting him. He'd be hurting, sure, but likely wouldn't be dead.

That's if Hal can maintain that forcefield while under a Faust fear attack and while fighting Sinestro.

[Joe Acro]

She can steal his magical equipment and has done this in the past. She stole the power of Wonder Woman and got her lasso. She stole the power of Alan Scott and got his power ring. So, she'd get Strange's spellcasting as well as his levitation cloak, the Eye of Agamatto and other magical items.Her costume changes to match that of whom she's channeling and, therefore, she'd get a lasso. That only makes sense. I have no experience with Black Alice, so pardon my ignorance, but did the lasso actually have the ability of WW's lasso? And Alan Scott's power ring is tied to his very being, so I can easily see her stealing it's power.


As for the gem of Cyttorak, she's not stealing it from Strange. She's stealing it from Juggernaut. We can steal the magical powers and equipment of any characters currently on the battlefield with us or on the roster for the universe we're currently in.But Black Alice's power works by eyesight (as near as I understand it). If she can't see Juggernaut or the gem, it seems to me that she shouldn't be able to use his power.


I think they'd return to him upon death, but with a superfast Mary Marvel ready and waiting for a physical attack to jump in front of, that arrow would break on her chest, not in BLack Alice. We have three heroes ready and waiting to dive in the way of attacks, who that arrow would not kill.And Taskmaster, like Hawkeye, that work around obstacles, perhaps even super-fast ones.


That's if Hal can maintain that forcefield while under a Faust fear attack and while fighting Sinestro.Well, true. But the nuke strategy is contingent on Taskmaster not dying (as otherwise, he won't do it).

[Mike Smash!]

Her costume changes to match that of whom she's channeling and, therefore, she'd get a lasso. That only makes sense. I have no experience with Black Alice, so pardon my ignorance, but did the lasso actually have the ability of WW's lasso? And Alan Scott's power ring is tied to his very being, so I can easily see her stealing it's power.

Yes, she tried to strangle a villain with the lasso. And nearly did. She channelled the magical golden lasso of Wonder Woman. And a working Alan Scott power ring.

So Mary would get Strange's gear.


But Black Alice's power works by eyesight (as near as I understand it). If she can't see Juggernaut or the gem, it seems to me that she shouldn't be able to use his power.

Not based on the rules we accepted for this game. Sean and Dipset agreed to us being able to take power from characters not on the battlefield, provided that we were fighting in their home universe and that they were on the draft roster.


And Taskmaster, like Hawkeye, that work around obstacles, perhaps even super-fast ones.Not ones that are waiting for him to do it. Namor, Mary and Hulk are ready to jump in the way of that arrow. Mary and Namor at least are much faster than that arrow and the Hulk is remarkably good at hitting things moving at superspeed.

And that's if Taskmaster can get a clear shot while the ground is exploding under and around him.

[ragnarok_2012]

Taskmaster wouldn't be committing suicide, as he'd have a Green Lantern forcefield and his own shield protecting him. He'd be hurting, sure, but likely wouldn't be dead.


Truth be told, I'm a little unclear on how powerful we're assuming this bomb is.

It's arguable whether or not Hal could maintain this force field in the first place (while under attack and multitasking), much less make it powerful enough to protect Taskmaster from a bomb that at the very least is much more powerful than a hand grenade.



And the nerve cluster tactic is used to slow down the Hulk in order to hit him with gas, something that has been shown to stop the Hulk.

That sounds kinda like a Firelord vs. Spider-man style argument. I've read a lot of Hulk, though by no means all of it.

I know that a normal human scientist in the 90's was able to throw the Hulk using Judo, and I concede that Taskmaster could avoid attacks effectively for a time (though wouldn't this force field impede his mobility somewhat?).

I know that the Hulk has a healing factor powerful enough to allow him to survive being stabbed through the heart by Wolverine, so I'm a little skeptical about the gas having much effect beyond...y'know....making him angrier.

[ragnarok_2012]

Yeah, Joe, Mike went above & beyond the call of duty before this game even started to precisely define what our version of Black Alice can and cannot do.

Heck, we could have had her at a much more powerful level if we had wanted.

[Mike Smash!]

I know that the Hulk has a healing factor powerful enough to allow him to survive being stabbed through the heart by Wolverine, so I'm a little skeptical about the gas having much effect beyond...y'know....making him angrier.Gas has been very effective against the Hulk in the past, but he's so familiar with it that even the less intelligent Hulks always immediately holds their breath (which he can do for almost an hour) and not be fazed.

It would take a shot to the gut from Ben Grimm to make him inhale. We've seen even the weaker Gray Hulk withstand shots to the gut from She-Hulk, Andromeda and others while still holding his breath with an airless force bubble around his head.

But this Hulk is stronger than the Gray Hulk and smarter than the Savage Hulk.

[ragnarok_2012]

Gas has been very effective against the Hulk in the past, but he's so familiar with it that even the less intelligent Hulks always immediately holds their breath (which he can do for almost an hour) and not be fazed.

It would take a shot to the gut from Ben Grimm to make him inhale. We've seen even the weaker Gray Hulk withstand shots to the gut from She-Hulk, Andromeda and others while still holding his breath with an airless force bubble around his head.

But this Hulk is stronger than the Gray Hulk and smarter than the Savage Hulk.

Learn something new every day.

It sounds like the realm of argument moves from "Would gas effect the Hulk?" to "Would he or wouldn't he hold his breath?"

[Mike Smash!]

Learn something new every day.

It sounds like the realm of argument moves from "Would gas effect the Hulk?" to "Would he or wouldn't he hold his breath?"Well, holding his breath a reflex by now, the Hulk has been gassed more often that Rush Limbaugh's chair.

Sort of like how it's assumed that if Hal Jordan has a yellow weakness that he'd get smart and start using his surroundings for attacks if confronted with yellow. (Though in this case, Hal is fairly overwhelmed, IMO).

[Sean Whitmore]

But Black Alice's power works by eyesight (as near as I understand it). If she can't see Juggernaut or the gem, it seems to me that she shouldn't be able to use his power.

Alice's powers aren't line-of-sight in the comics. She just calls up the magic power of whoever she needs at the time.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

It would take a shot to the gut from Ben Grimm to make him inhale.

Or Batman. ;)

(And I don't mean that in the usual Batman-is-god way, I mean he actually did it once)


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

And I see I forgot again to include a time limit for the poll.

Voters, take note of what time the first post was made. The match closes 24 hours after that time. I'll try my best to be here at that time, but just in case, if somebody will mark the score in a post within a few moments of the poll closing, it'd be helpful.


SEAN

[Joe Acro]

Yes, she tried to strangle a villain with the lasso. And nearly did. She channelled the magical golden lasso of Wonder Woman. And a working Alan Scott power ring.But the lasso itself has little to distinguish it as magical. Unless she actually extracted the truth from someone or someone super-strong tried to break it and failed, I don't really see how that's a safe claim. And I'd already stated that I see how she'd be able to steal Alan's ring's power. It's tied to his being.


So Mary would get Strange's gear.Mary? You mean Alice. And she might not get all of it, as Strange transferred the Eye to Jericho.


And that's if Taskmaster can get a clear shot while the ground is exploding under and around him.Well, given how close together those two events occur, I could argue that he fires just before Terrax strikes.


Truth be told, I'm a little unclear on how powerful we're assuming this bomb is.It's a nuclear device. You figure it out.


It's arguable whether or not Hal could maintain this force field in the first place (while under attack and multitasking), much less make it powerful enough to protect Taskmaster from a bomb that at the very least is much more powerful than a hand grenade.If Jericho has the Eye, Faust is taken out of the equation, at least in regards to taking down Hal. I'm sure he could hold off Sinestro while those forcefields are up.


I know that a normal human scientist in the 90's was able to throw the Hulk using Judo, and I concede that Taskmaster could avoid attacks effectively for a time (though wouldn't this force field impede his mobility somewhat?).Do light constructs have weight by nature?


Gas has been very effective against the Hulk in the past, but he's so familiar with it that even the less intelligent Hulks always immediately holds their breath (which he can do for almost an hour) and not be fazed.

It would take a shot to the gut from Ben Grimm to make him inhale. We've seen even the weaker Gray Hulk withstand shots to the gut from She-Hulk, Andromeda and others while still holding his breath with an airless force bubble around his head.

But this Hulk is stronger than the Gray Hulk and smarter than the Savage Hulk.The gas could work its way into his lungs anyway, given that he places the arrow in Hulk's mouth. It just wouldn't be immediate.


Or Batman. ;)

(And I don't mean that in the usual Batman-is-god way, I mean he actually did it once)


SEANI don't see particular reason Taskmaster wouldn't be able to do the same, given how similar the two are in build.

[Mike Smash!]

But the lasso itself has little to distinguish it as magical. Unless she actually extracted the truth from someone or someone super-strong tried to break it and failed, I don't really see how that's a safe claim. And I'd already stated that I see how she'd be able to steal Alan's ring's power. It's tied to his being.

Mary? You mean Alice. And she might not get all of it, as Strange transferred the Eye to Jericho.

Oopse. I did mean Alice. But it was the channelled lasso and despite Alan's connection to his ring, he's powerless without after the Starheart reformed as a ring.

She copied Alan's ring and yes, it worked. Logic dictates that she can steal magical artifacts, and that's been the precedent in this game.

She gets his artifacts.


Well, given how close together those two events occur, I could argue that he fires just before Terrax strikes.

Even if it's before Terrax strikes, she has three people ready to dive in front of the arrow. One of them has super speed and jumping in front of bullets is an old convention. And bullets are much faster than arrows.

And in this case, I specifically have them waiting for such an attack.


It's a nuclear device. You figure it out.

It's hard to say. Arnold outran that explosion, so I'd argue that while potent, it's smaller than the bomb that fell on Hiroshima.


If Jericho has the Eye, Faust is taken out of the equation, at least in regards to taking down Hal. I'm sure he could hold off Sinestro while those forcefields are up.

He doesn't have the Eye, as Alice took it a couple seconds into the fight. Just as she's taken Wonder Woman's lasso (which glowed) and Alan Scott's ring (which worked) in the comics.

And even if he had the Eye (which he doesn't), why would Jericho have the skill to use it?


Do light constructs have weight by nature?Not by weight, but by its size.

A bag of foam peanuts doesn't weight much, for instance. But it's awkward as hell to carry.


The gas could work its way into his lungs anyway, given that he places the arrow in Hulk's mouth. It just wouldn't be immediate.The Hulk isn't going to stand around and let him put it in his mouth. He's fought skilled people using such tactics in the past and beaten them.


I don't see particular reason Taskmaster wouldn't be able to do the same, given how similar the two are in build.But I'd argue that that comic can't be used as precedent because it was bad on a scale that most Hulk fans use it in the same breath as him being choked out by a regular boa constrictor.

We recently saw Hulk took a full punch in the gut from the Thing and not loose his breath.

[Mike Smash!]

Black Alice stealing Wonder Woman's lasso and yes, it's glowing:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7092/2187/1600/BirdsofPrey96-001.jpg

[ragnarok_2012]

Re: the Predator's nuclear device...

This is movie science. Like Mike mentioned, Arnold did outrun the blast.

And did I insult you in some way, Joe, because I'm reading that "You figure it out" comment as rather rude.

As for the Black Alice debate, I don't consider it an issue. We already defined her powerset in the context of this game weeks ago.

She steals Dr. Strange's powers and his tools.

And does Jericho have any magical training now?

[Joe Acro]

Oopse. I did mean Alice. But it was the channelled lasso and despite Alan's connection to his ring, he's powerless without after the Starheart reformed as a ring.

She copied Alan's ring and yes, it worked. Logic dictates that she can steal magical artifacts, and that's been the precedent in this game.

She gets his artifacts.I don't believe Alan's powerless. The power comes from him, manifesting through the ring. It's similar to how Weather Wizard uses his power. I haven't seen anything recently to indicate otherwise.



Even if it's before Terrax strikes, she has three people ready to dive in front of the arrow. One of them has super speed and jumping in front of bullets is an old convention. And bullets are much faster than arrows.

And in this case, I specifically have them waiting for such an attack.Like I said, I could argue that. I won't though, as it's moot. I doubted that arrow would make anyway, hence the other strikes at Alice.


It's hard to say. Arnold outran that explosion, so I'd argue that while potent, it's smaller than the bomb that fell on Hiroshima.It probably also lacks the radiation.


He doesn't have the Eye, as Alice took it a couple seconds into the fight. Just as she's taken Wonder Woman's lasso (which glowed) and Alan Scott's ring (which worked) in the comics.

And even if he had the Eye (which he doesn't), why would Jericho have the skill to use it?He should get the Eye. Strange's first action is to give it to him.

Jericho wouldn't need the skill, as the Eye would act as it always does when affixed to someone's forehead.


Not by weight, but by its size.

A bag of foam peanuts doesn't weight much, for instance. But it's awkward as hell to carry.Personal forcefields don't seem to get in the way of even rookies Lanterns, so I'd think they wouldn't affect Taskmaster noticeably. But even if it would slow him down a little, it would also be able to absorb the impact of a few grazing blows from the Hulk.


The Hulk isn't going to stand around and let him put it in his mouth. He's fought skilled people using such tactics in the past and beaten them.That's what the nerve-pinching was for. Taskmaster has to slow him down before he can pull it off.


But I'd argue that that comic can't be used as precedent because it was bad on a scale that most Hulk fans use it in the same breath as him being choked out by a regular boa constrictor.


Black Alice stealing Wonder Woman's lasso and yes, it's glowing:That doesn't mean anything. That just means it copied the look of the lasso or is glowing because it's being struck by lightning.

I'm going solely by Wiki here, so it may be wrong, but it states that if Alice doesn't have line-of-sight to a mystical person when she activates her power, she steals a random power. Is this so? If so, how can you guarantee that she'd get the Juggernaut's power?

Putting that aside, given that Juggernaut, as of World War Hulk: X-Men, did not possess the abilities granted by the gem, would Alice still be able to access it?

And how, exactly, would Tornado have no affect on Terrax's opening move? Stuff is getting thrust into the air, especially large quantities of dirt. It seems to me that if Red Tornado tries to counteract Terrax's work, the two would just get caught in a stalemate.

[Joe Acro]

Re: the Predator's nuclear device...

This is movie science. Like Mike mentioned, Arnold did outrun the blast.

And did I insult you in some way, Joe, because I'm reading that "You figure it out" comment as rather rude.I'm sorry if that came off as rude. I was merely trying to answer the question succinctly, as I was a little pressed for time and wanted to touch on those other points. I apologize.


As for the Black Alice debate, I don't consider it an issue. We already defined her powerset in the context of this game weeks ago.I don't care what you did in other games. I wasn't there to argue the point. That's my bad, I know, but I'm going to make up for it now as best I can.

[ragnarok_2012]

I'm sorry if that came off as rude. I was merely trying to answer the question succinctly, as I was a little pressed for time and wanted to touch on those other points. I apologize.


Thanks, Joe. I appreciate that.



I don't care what you did in other games. I wasn't there to argue the point. That's my bad, I know, but I'm going to make up for it now as best I can.

I don't think that's a fair criticism, Joe.

We set this all up in the sign-up thread weeks ago. I find Black Alice an obnoxiously high powered character, but we got assigned her.

Mike wanted to nerf her powers a bit, and he wanted to define precisely what she can and cannot do. We're adhering to the agreement we made on the main thread (and via PM with Dipset, iirc).

[Mike Smash!]

I don't believe Alan's powerless. The power comes from him, manifesting through the ring. It's similar to how Weather Wizard uses his power. I haven't seen anything recently to indicate otherwise.The power is from the ring. The Starheart, the source of his power used to be held internally.

It was torn out of him in a battle in the pages of JSA and when it reformed, it came back to him in the form of a ring. The power is in the ring, whatever Alan's attachment to it.


Like I said, I could argue that. I won't though, as it's moot. I doubted that arrow would make anyway, hence the other strikes at Alice.

And again, Alice has Strange's powers and artifacts.


It probably also lacks the radiation.That's hard to say. Movie science again.


He should get the Eye. Strange's first action is to give it to him.And Alice's is to steal it. That takes two seconds at most. She does so immediately.

Simply taking it off would take that long.


Jericho wouldn't need the skill, as the Eye would act as it always does when affixed to someone's forehead.

But he'd still need to make Eye contact and Faust's were specifically closed.


That doesn't mean anything. That just means it copied the look of the lasso.It's clear that if she steals their powers and suddenly has access to artifacts that look and act exactly like Diana's and Alan's that she can steal them as well.

If she had been given just a plain rope, it wouldn't glow. Besides, it's been accepted before as precedent. When we tried to use her to steal Zauriel's sword and armor, Lex didn't argue that she couldn't. He argued that they weren't magical.


I'm going solely by Wiki here, so it may be wrong, but it states that if Alice doesn't have line-of-sight to a mystical person when she activates her power, she steals a random power. Is this so? If so, how can you guarantee that she'd get the Juggernaut's power?Because we're going off of the rules established for this game in lengthy debates on the Sign Up sheet and off of precedent.

Rags and I were insistent on laying these rules out before we got into fights like this. And in that discussion it was said we could choose the powers and what limits we'd have.

Alice steals the Eye and Cloak. Just as she stole Alan Scott's ring and Diana's lasso.

It's a debate I wish we'd have had in advance about Animal Man.


Putting that aside, given that Juggernaut, as of World War Hulk: X-Men, did not possess the abilities granted by the gem, would Alice still be able to access it?And we had chosen Juggernaut earlier in this game as part of our team. Before we chose him, I asked Dipset if he was old school Juggernaut or current de-powered one.

He said old school, unstoppable Juggernaut.


And how, exactly, would Tornado have no affect on Terrax's opening move? Stuff is getting thrust into the air, especially large quantities of dirt. It seems to me that if Red Tornado tries to counteract Terrax's work, the two would just get caught in a stalemate.

Well, what we said was that part of the strategy was to knock them off their feet with the ground exploding and that if Tornado were to use his powers, all that loosened dirt would simply make the rising dust worse.

[Mike Smash!]

I don't care what you did in other games. I wasn't there to argue the point. That's my bad, I know, but I'm going to make up for it now as best I can.It was in THIS game, during the discussion period, just after we'd just drafted her.

[Joe Acro]

I don't think that's a fair criticism, Joe.

We set this all up in the sign-up thread weeks ago. I find Black Alice an obnoxiously high powered character, but we got assigned her.

Mike wanted to nerf her powers a bit, and he wanted to define precisely what she can and cannot do. We're adhering to the agreement we made on the main thread (and via PM with Dipset, iirc).I didn't have time to check how exactly you guys had defined her powers in the sign-up thread, a conversation I did read but could only vaguely remember. (I know I had practically a week, but still.) I don't recall anything about her taking artifacts of those she's stealing powers from. Perhaps that was covered in PM. Perhaps it's another manifestation of my crappy memory.

If I had known then what I know now and the topic of copying artifacts had come up, I would have disputed it.

[Mike Smash!]

I didn't have time to check how exactly you guys had defined her powers in the sign-up thread, a conversation I did read but could only vaguely remember. (I know I had practically a week, but still.) I don't recall anything about her taking artifacts of those she's stealing powers from. Perhaps that was covered in PM. Perhaps it's another manifestation of my crappy memory.

If I had known then what I know now and the topic of copying artifacts had come up, I would have disputed it.And we'd have referenced the Alan Scott (in Villains United) and Wonder Woman (in Birds of Prey) incidents in the comics, both written by Gail Simone, Black Alice's creator.

[ragnarok_2012]

I didn't have time to check how exactly you guys had defined her powers in the sign-up thread, a conversation I did read but could only vaguely remember. (I know I had practically a week, but still.) I don't recall anything about her taking artifacts of those she's stealing powers from. Perhaps that was covered in PM. Perhaps it's another manifestation of my crappy memory.

If I had known then what I know now and the topic of copying artifacts had come up, I would have disputed it.

Fair enough. I personally would have preferred a street level league, to be honest.

And this game has drawn on a lot longer than anybody really anticipated.

We've been using Black Alice consistently throughout this tournament, though. I'm not sure what we could have reasonably done any differently.

[Joe Acro]

The power is from the ring. The Starheart, the source of his power used to be held internally.

It was torn out of him in a battle in the pages of JSA and when it reformed, it came back to him in the form of a ring. The power is in the ring, whatever Alan's attachment to it.Then how do you know that she just didn't copy the ring?


And Alice's is to steal it. That takes two seconds at most. She does so immediately.The Eye, in the past, has moved from his chest to his forehead with near-instantaneous speed. At the very least, it would become detached before she stole his powers, and that's as much as I need.


But he'd still need to make Eye contact and Faust's were specifically closed.The Eye can allow him to see through things, such as Faust's closed eyes. It also would allow him to probe Faust's mind, perhaps to force his eyes open or to find an indirect path in. But given his limited mystical knowledge (he likely has a little from his time as a Titan), that second part would take a bit longer. It might, though, throw Faust off a little.


And we had chosen Juggernaut earlier in this game as part of our team. Before we chose him, I asked Dipset if he was old school Juggernaut or current de-powered one.

He said old school, unstoppable Juggernaut.But since he isn't on your team in that form and we're fighting in the ruins of Avengers Mansion, I'm assuming that Juggernaut lacks his powers from Cyttorak, just given the timeline of events.


Well, what we said was that part of the strategy was to knock them off their feet with the ground exploding and that if Tornado were to use his powers, all that loosened dirt would simply make the rising dust worse.It would make the dirt and dust worse, but more manageable and able to be cleared. I can easily see Terrax and Red Tornado pushing against each other as they each try to control the dirt in the air.

[Joe Acro]

And we'd have referenced the Alan Scott (in Villains United) and Wonder Woman (in Birds of Prey) incidents in the comics, both written by Gail Simone, Black Alice's creator.That's exactly what I mean. If I had known to have this debate sooner, at the time her powers were being defined, I would have debated just as hard against those examples as I am now. Well, maybe not just as hard. Nothing would've been on the line then.;)

[Mike Smash!]

Then how do you know that she just didn't copy the ring?It was probably a copy of the ring. But based on what we've seen, it left Alan without his ring and its powers at the same time.

However, as we've seen in the instances that she steals powers, she leave the people she steals from powerless. She even left the Spectre as an immaterial and impotent ghost.

Meaning she doesn't just copy, she steals and leaves the theft victim powerless without the item.


The Eye, in the past, has moved from his chest to his forehead with near-instantaneous speed. At the very least, it would become detached before she stole his powers, and that's as much as I need.And in the comics, her powers are instantaneous. But we're not speed blitzing here. It's his archetypal artifact. I'd argue that she'd get the Eye and cloak, even if he immediately threw them off.


But since he isn't on your team in that form and we're fighting in the ruins of Avengers Mansion, I'm assuming that Juggernaut lacks his powers from Cyttorak, just given the timeline of events.It's still the same Juggernaut on the roster. Dipset was clear on that.

[Mike Smash!]

That's exactly what I mean. If I had known to have this debate sooner, at the time her powers were being defined, I would have debated just as hard against those examples as I am now. Well, maybe not just as hard. Nothing would've been on the line then.;)But the debate was had and settled, Joe.

[ragnarok_2012]

That's exactly what I mean. If I had known to have this debate sooner, at the time her powers were being defined, I would have debated just as hard against those examples as I am now. Well, maybe not just as hard. Nothing would've been on the line then.;)

Man, I've wasted too much of my time playing the "If I knew then what I know now" game.

You can't anticipate everything.

[Joe Acro]

And in the comics, her powers are instantaneous. But we're not speed blitzing here. It's his archetypal artifact. I'd argue that she'd get the Eye and cloak, even if he immediately threw them off.As long as Jericho gets the Eye, I don't mind if she gets them. Your strategy hardly has you use them.


It's still the same Juggernaut on the roster. Dipset was clear on that.Use this as an example. We're fighting on the current Marvel Earth, in the rubble of Avenger's Mansion. I have a Sabra on my team that comes from her early years. Since the current Sabra can do so much more and looks noticeably different, I think it's safe to say that, as this fight is waged, there are two Sabras on the Marvel Earth. If the unstoppable Juggernaut was on the draft list, that doesn't mean that during this fight, that's who you'd get to copy. Perhaps at a location with a more ambiguous time you would, but the way I see it is that there's draft Juggernaut, who isn't present, and current Juggernaut, who's somewhere else on the planet.



You can't anticipate everything.Ain't it the truth?

[Joe Acro]

A few questions:

You've stated that Hulk might hold his breath. Does he do so normally? If not, would he know to do so fighting Taskmaster?

How can Faust be affecting Hal if he can't see? How does a magician work blind? It isn't as if you have a telepath to use for coordination.

Sabra fires her fast-as-sound energy quills at Black Alice as she engages Mary Marvel. Who would block their path and, thus, become at least semi-paralyzed in her stead?

[ragnarok_2012]

A few questions:

You've stated that Hulk might hold his breath. Does he do so normally? If not, would he know to do so fighting Taskmaster?


What Mike said earlier:


Gas has been very effective against the Hulk in the past, but he's so familiar with it that even the less intelligent Hulks always immediately holds their breath (which he can do for almost an hour) and not be fazed.

It would take a shot to the gut from Ben Grimm to make him inhale. We've seen even the weaker Gray Hulk withstand shots to the gut from She-Hulk, Andromeda and others while still holding his breath with an airless force bubble around his head.

But this Hulk is stronger than the Gray Hulk and smarter than the Savage Hulk.

Mike knows way more about the Hulk's continuity than I do, so I defer to him on these matters. Rather than saying "he might hold his breath," Mike's insisting that it's his usual behavior now.



How can Faust be affecting Hal if he can't see? How does a magician work blind? It isn't as if you have a telepath to use for coordination.


Why would a magic spell need line of sight?

"Mystical forces of XYZ, I ask that you dredge up the innermost demons of the Green Lantern nearest me!!!"



Sabra fires her fast-as-sound energy quills at Black Alice as she engages Mary Marvel. Who would block their path and, thus, become at least semi-paralyzed in her stead?

As I read your strategy, by the time that Sabra attacks Black Alice she's already got the invulnerability of Juggernaut.

Mary Marvel would be defending Black Alice for as long as she needs it, but in this case I don't think a stun quill is going to matter much. Can the old school Juggernaut really be stunned by Sabra?

[Mike Smash!]

Mary Marvel would be defending Black Alice for as long as she needs it, but in this case I don't think a stun quill is going to matter much. Can the old school Juggernaut really be stunned by Sabra?Yeah, a stun quill would glance off of old school Juggernaut.

[Joe Acro]

What Mike said earlier:



Mike knows way more about the Hulk's continuity than I do, so I defer to him on these matters. Rather than saying "he might hold his breath," Mike's insisting that it's his usual behavior now.When I read that earlier, I took it to mean that Hulk, when confronted with gas, knows to hold his breath. I suppose I didn't read it correctly.




Why would a magic spell need line of sight?

"Mystical forces of XYZ, I ask that you dredge up the innermost demons of the Green Lantern nearest me!!!"Have you ever seen Dr. Strange, Faust, or various other magicians used spells in combat with their eyes closed? I know it likely doesn't come up much, though. It just seems to me that magic requires line of sight for some magicians, Faust being one of them. I've never seen him do a long-range spell (which, in my mind, is similar to doing a spell blind).



As I read your strategy, by the time that Sabra attacks Black Alice she's already got the invulnerability of Juggernaut.

Mary Marvel would be defending Black Alice for as long as she needs it, but in this case I don't think a stun quill is going to matter much. Can the old school Juggernaut really be stunned by Sabra?And I'll still debate that she isn't Juggernaut. Things just keep coming to that...

[Mike Smash!]

When I read that earlier, I took it to mean that Hulk, when confronted with gas, knows to hold his breath. I suppose I didn't read it correctly.

That's what I meant. While gas is effective, it gets lobbed at him all the time by the Army and he always holds his breath and thunderclaps it aside. It's rarely really effective against him anymore.


Have you ever seen Dr. Strange, Faust, or various other magicians used spells in combat with their eyes closed? I know it likely doesn't come up much, though. It just seems to me that magic requires line of sight for some magicians, Faust being one of them. I've never seen him do a long-range spell (which, in my mind, is similar to doing a spell blind).
Sure. Strange recently did a long range spell and mind-zapped the Hulk during WWH.


And I'll still debate that she isn't Juggernaut. Things just keep coming to that...Well, we did it in the last battle when we channelled a hero who wasn't there without complaint.

[Mike Smash!]

Well, the 24 hours are up.

[Sean Whitmore]

5/3, Mike and Rags. Congratulations!


SEAN

[ragnarok_2012]

Thanks!

Joe, I've gotta hand it to you: you come up with the most creative ways to use Jericho.

[Mike Smash!]

Thanks!

Joe, I've gotta hand it to you: you come up with the most creative ways to use Jericho.I agree. You seriously rock with that character.

Most of the sweating Rags and I did over our fight with you was your use of Jericho. I still have to applaud the bit with the sniper rifle.

[Joe Acro]

That's what I meant. While gas is effective, it gets lobbed at him all the time by the Army and he always holds his breath and thunderclaps it aside. It's rarely really effective against him anymore.Well, then my question still remains unanswered.


Sure. Strange recently did a long range spell and mind-zapped the Hulk during WWH.I meant that I hadn't seen Faust do a long-range spell.


Well, we did it in the last battle when we channelled a hero who wasn't there without complaint.I don't mind him not being there, as you explained how that fits into the parameters of her powers. I was just trying to limit you to powers she could reasonably access within current Marvel.


5/3, Mike and Rags. Congratulations!


SEANIndeed, congratulations! It was a well-developed strategy that was well-argued. Now, go all the way so that I can say I lost to the winner.;)


Thanks!

Joe, I've gotta hand it to you: you come up with the most creative ways to use Jericho.Oddly enough, I sort of backed into Jericho. S_G chose Oracle (of the Imperial Guard) and he was the only option available to me in the psychic category. I thought about swapping them out after S_G traded her away, but thought I could play him better, since I knew him better. I just wish I could've done more with his martial arts background.


I agree. You seriously rock with that character.

Most of the sweating Rags and I did over our fight with you was your use of Jericho. I still have to applaud the bit with the sniper rifle.I wanted to use something similar to the sniper rifle idea back in the first match, where he'd have used on of the tank's long-range field of vision. It just wouldn't fit.

But, thanks, both of you. On a similar note, together you did fine jobs of handling the various problems within your team. Which Hulk? What can he do? What are the limitations on Black Alice? How much power could Terrax use? And so on.

I'll admit that I didn't actually believe I'd win this fight. You guys just had too many threats for me to handle. Perhaps I should've drafted better. In any case, I threw practically everything I had left. Jericho using the Eye of Agamotto. Strange using possibly the most potent spell I've ever seen him use (on Sinestro, who I considered your strongest character). Taskmaster fighting the Hulk. I even included an issue number and stats on Sabra, things I have neglected to do in the past.

Y'all beat me at my best. For that, I commend you.

[Mike Smash!]

But, thanks, both of you. On a similar note, together you did fine jobs of handling the various problems within your team. Which Hulk? What can he do? What are the limitations on Black Alice? How much power could Terrax use? And so on.The Hulk we have is the Merged Hulk from the 1990's. Banner's intellect, with the power of the Savage Hulk, the cunning of the Gray Hulk, with the temper of both underneath it all. Basically an angry, brilliant man with incredible physical power.

I wanted the Hulk more than any character on our team and didn't really care which version we got and simply left it up to Dipset to choose. He happened to choose the Hulk which was easier to right using teamwork, but was still very willing to fight dirty and was the smartest and one of the most powerful.

The limitations we got on Black Alice for the purposes of the game were that she can steal magical powers and artifacts from a maximum of two magic based characters that are either on the battlefield or on the draft roster for the universe we're currently fighting in. Stealing the powers takes about two seconds, during which she's vulnerable and that she's reasonably skilled at using that power when she gets it.

With the exception of Mary Marvel, we have a team that's willing to fight very dirty and do nasty things to our opponents. The bonus of Felix Faust being evil - although he's a physical coward with a glass jaw - is that we can do things that ethically Dr. Strange would never do, like sic demons on someone's soul or set them on fire or turn them into a vegetable.

As for what out characters can do, we go back and forth and discuss comics they're in (some characters we know better than others or each other.)

Mostly we begin by looking at our opponent's characters and figure out if they have any obvious weaknesses, especially weaknesses in common. And work backwards to match our strengths to those weaknesses. Then we look at how those players use those characters -- who they are most creative with, who they favor, people they like to use as secret weapons, characters that are the biggest threats to us -- and try to take them out before they can take us down.

And then we figure out what we'd do in your shoes. Sometimes we gamble. We've actually come up with a few ways to take our team down with other teams, including yours. :) Alot of the time, though, people surprise the hell out of us.

[ragnarok_2012]

When I first saw that Oracle was an option, I was picturing a redhead in a wheelchair with a laptop in the middle of a field of battle.

[Sean Whitmore]

When I first saw that Oracle was an option, I was picturing a redhead in a wheelchair with a laptop in the middle of a field of battle.

Too bad Xavier wasn't on the list. I would have liked to have yelled:

"CRIPPLE FIIIIIIGHT!"

And so I did.


SEAN

[ragnarok_2012]

Too bad Xavier wasn't on the list. I would have liked to have yelled:

"CRIPPLE FIIIIIIGHT!"

And so I did.


SEAN

Without telepathy, Babs could totally take Chuck.

[Sean Whitmore]

Without telepathy, Babs could totally take Chuck.

I dunno, dude's a veteran, isn't he?


SEAN

[ragnarok_2012]

I dunno, dude's a veteran, isn't he?


SEAN

Chuck's fought Hydra....which any 8 year old can do, and he can play basketball reasonably well if I remember my 80's X-Men.

Babs would totally win.