Things that were so wrong I can't even think of them.

[DC/Marvelfan]

There were some pretty bad things done to the mythos of BATMAN over the last few years.

I was away from Batman since 98, up until around 2005. I started collecting again and found out they did some really stupid crap to Batman while I was gone.

A few months ago I read a Red Hood story in a tpb. and I was horrified to see that they truly ruined Dr. Leslie Tompkins by letting her kill the Spoiler. That was so against everything the character was about.

to me it did not happen. I've erased it.

Then there's the disgusting thing they did to Jason Todd!

They brought him back with a stupid explanation, then they had him killed off again. At least that's how it seemed, if he shows up again, I will not read any of it, 'cause just like the other otrocity, this did not happen. I've erased it from my mind.

I stopped reading at the start of the whole Earth quake thing, it just seemed lame to me, like a cheap idea from a cheap 70's disaster movie, this wasn't Batman's type of thing.

It's one thing to keep things fresh and try new stuff, but it was a cheap idea and stunt. So I walked away from Gotham for a while.

I really started collecting again with One Year Later, wehn I heard Batman would be returning to his old self, then I heard that would really be happening with the series when Kubert took over on art. I'm glad I did miss the last few years, 'cause they really messed up, it's like they had people doing it that didn't get it, nor care about the character. It's a shame what they did.

I do like Hush so to me, that was Clayface as Todd, JT tried to say that was him in the grave yard, but not to me, and not to my beloved Bat-Mythos.

It's horrible that they did that to Leslie, such a wonderful and pure character, and then to do that to Jason Todd was pathetic, even though J.T. was a snot as Denny O'neil put it, still he didn't deserve to have his memory ruined like that, his grave desacrated so to speak.

So sad. Shame on DC for letting that happen.

I am so happy to see the great revamp of the character as of late with the art by Andy K., and stories by... I'm blanking on his name for some reason, anyway, It is so much better now!

Another crime they committed against Batman was getting rid of his trade mark Bat symbol in the yellow oval, it looks so dull without it, so plain, like a generic halloween decoration taped onto his chest, I liked it in golden age stuff but not now, and it has nothing to do with stealth, he still has a yellow utility belt, and the oval was not that big and did not give him away, he was doing fine with it these last 30 some years.

It was all his own, it said Batman! Now it's a dull Bat with no Zazz.

[Captain Jim]

Well, I'm glad you're happy (I guess you are) with the stuff that's coming out now. But IMO, you missed some of the cream of the crop. Cataclysm (the earthquake story) was really pretty good. And the No Man's Land year-long arc that followed shortly after was one of the highlights of Batman's history. After that was some wonderful stuff by Greg Rucka, culminating in the wonderful Bruce Wayne, Murderer? and Bruce Wayne, Fugitive storylines.

Personally, I think it's the last few years that have been downhill, not the stuff that you didn't give a chance. That's when Leslie's character was ruined (I agree with you on that one) and when Jason came back. By the way, he's not dead again; he's one of the main characters in Countdown right now.

[Chiroptera]

There was definitely some good stuff amidst all the bad in the time you missed; however I'm afraid personally I have to disagree with Jim on the votes of Murderer and Fugitive, I found those stories extremely lacking, personally. The whole thing felt like it had been made bigger than it really was, over-extended, overly complex and contrived, and over all just flat out boring by the time it ended.

But, that's just one little Bat's opinion.

No Man's Land was definitely a great read though and I'd encourage looking into that one. And Yes, ruining Leslie Thompkins may have been one of the most despecable and horrendous things to happen to comics in recent years. I really loved her character, a large chunk of my love of Batman died in the recent years during the Hush and Wargames storylines. I may even be dropping Batman from my pull list at the rate it's going. I've loved Detective Comics lately, but Batman.. It's just starting to feel like a soap opera to me.

[Mia]

Well you can relax. The whole thing about Leslie killing Spoiler has been ret-conned out and her death has been attributed to Black Mask.

However I do agree with you in terms of some of the questionable storylines. Most of them seemed like nothing but money grabs. NML really seemed to be bloated, as was Murder/Fugitive and Batman:War. The thing for me though, was not only were they bloated. The whole thing just made Batman look progressively worse as the story went on.


One of the things I have hated though is what has been done to the supporting cast.

Nightwing essentially being turned into a spineless eunech by Devin Grayson and Bruce Jones. Even with Marv Wolfman writing the character again, I still don't see any of the old confidence and spark that he had under the pen of Chuck Dixon.

Talia being turned into a passive idiot by Greg Rucka. Then a one dimensional shrew by Grant Morisson.

Huntress being turned from a highly idependent self respecting woman. To a stupid trollop who can't think for herself by Gail Simone and Judd Winnick.

The killing off of Robin's dad (how original). Thereby reducing Tim to a mopey teenager.

And don't get me started to on Batgirl (III)....

The only character who has seemed to have remained intact (or at least resepctable) is Catwoman. Even if she has a kid at least she's still edgy (even if she's not flirting and using men).

[Chiroptera]

Mia, I think I love you.
Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your news letter! :D

[Captain Jim]

Well you can relax. The whole thing about Leslie killing Spoiler has been ret-conned out and her death has been attributed to Black Mask.

Mia, I hope you're right, but where did you hear that? It's news to me and I need a source.

[Paul Dee]

The History of the DCU backups in 52 stated that "Stephanie was tortured and died at the hand of Black Mask" which was enough for me to believe that Thompkins wans't culpable and had been removed. Maybe Mia has more info though?

[Mia]

Mia, I think I love you.
Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your news letter! :D

You're too kind!:)

Mia, I hope you're right, but where did you hear that? It's news to me and I need a source.


Corinna posted it awhile back. I don't know the source. But I think that she was referencing some encyclopedia. You might want to PM and ask her. I could not find an official source on the internet. But the write up on Wikipedia (not official I know) says that she died from the injuries she sustained from being tortured by Black Mask.

[Captain Jim]

Well, yeah, she did die from the injuries she received at the hands of Black Mask...injuries that were left untreated by Leslie Thompkins. That just sounds like a shorthand way of describing what happened. I think you all may be reading too much in to it.

Of course, if someone has additional info, I'll be glad to hear it. :)

[Mia]

But don't you think that if Leslie was culpable in anyway for Stephanie's death, it would have been mentioned?

[Paul Dee]

Yeah, possibly. I do admit that if it had been ret-conned then it weould have been made more clear by now with an appearance from Thompkins in the current DCU (like Countdown or something). Although DC do seem keen to put things right that the fans hate (Evil Batgirl etc) so who knows?

edit: - this post was in reference to Captain Jim


One thing that strikes me is that that particular recap was (from memory) about establishing how dark the DCU had become so if she had died at Thompkin's negligence then this would definitely be note-worthy. Of course, those re-caps did seem to skirt over the issues quite easily and were quite vague, so who knows?

[mattx110]

But don't you think that if Leslie was culpable in anyway for Stephanie's death, it would have been mentioned?

is there anything in a leslie thompkins entry, or is she not important enough?

[Mia]

Yeah, possibly. I do admit that if it had been ret-conned then it weould have been made more clear by now with an appearance from Thompkins in the current DCU (like Countdown or something). Although DC do seem keen to put things right that the fans hate (Evil Batgirl etc) so who knows?

edit: - this post was in reference to Captain Jim


One thing that strikes me is that that particular recap was (from memory) about establishing how dark the DCU had become so if she had died at Thompkin's negligence then this would definitely be note-worthy. Of course, those re-caps did seem to skirt over the issues quite easily and were quite vague, so who knows?


That can also be attributed to the fact that none of the current writers have any space for her in their stories. I really can't remember her being used all that much consistantly during my 6 years of collecting the books. I never liked Leslie to begin with, she always seemed self-righteous and strident. It's quite possible that the current creators hold the same opinion and don't want to use her.

[Paul Dee]

That can also be attributed to the fact that none of the current writers have any space for her in their stories. I really can't remember her being used all that much consistantly during my 6 years of collecting the books. I never liked Leslie to begin with, she always seemed self-righteous and strident. It's quite possible that the current creators hold the same opinion and don't want to use her.


Fair enough, although if DC thought "Look at the internet forums - we've really messed up with Leslie Thompkins" ( like they did with Cassandra Cain) then they'd find someway to shoehorn her in somewhere to clarify that she had nothing to do with Stephanie's death. There could easily have been an editorial mandate stating that Thompkins situation had to be clarified (in any DC book - 52, Countdown, Batman, Robin etc) regardless of whether or not the writer wanted to include her in their story.

[Captain Jim]

But don't you think that if Leslie was culpable in anyway for Stephanie's death, it would have been mentioned?

Not necessarily. They may just want everybody to forget about her.

[Captain Jim]

is there anything in a leslie thompkins entry, or is she not important enough?

An entry where?

[Captain Jim]

I never liked Leslie to begin with, she always seemed self-righteous and strident.

Not originally. She has gotten more and more that way over time, which I think was a mistake.

It's quite possible that the current creators hold the same opinion and don't want to use her.

I suspect it's more in line of wanting to return Batman to being a loner (which seemed to be one of the goals of War Games).

[Captain Jim]

if DC thought "Look at the internet forums - we've really messed up with Leslie Thompkins" ( like they did with Cassandra Cain) then they'd find someway to shoehorn her in somewhere to clarify that she had nothing to do with Stephanie's death.

It's a small segment of comic readers who post on Internet message boards and I don't think DC is overly concerned with trying to appease us.

[mattx110]

An entry where?

in this dc encyclopedia thing that attributes her death solely to the black mask.

[Captain Jim]

in this dc encyclopedia thing that attributes her death solely to the black mask.

Well, as I understand it, Mia was only speculating that this was somebody else's source. We're not even sure what this book is, at this point. Mia also reference Wikipedia, however, and it does have an entry on Leslie, which makes it sound like everything is still valid.

[mattx110]

Well, as I understand it, Mia was only speculating that this was somebody else's source. We're not even sure what this book is, at this point. Mia also reference Wikipedia, however, and it does have an entry on Leslie, which makes it sound like everything is still valid.

thanks for clearing that up.

i'm afraid they might just forget about her for 20 years after another crisis-type reset thing and this whole spoiler thing never happened. or bring her back like harold to make bruce mad(der than usual) and well, that won't be good for her at all.

[Paul Dee]

It's a small segment of comic readers who post on Internet message boards and I don't think DC is overly concerned with trying to appease us.



True but a lot of Didio's/Dc's decisions over the last few years have been influenced by what the fans want - Nightwing not dying, not cancelling Manhunter, perhaps even reversing Batgirl's foray into the world of evil. I find it hard to accept that some of this wasn't influenced by what was said online as well as in fan letters etc.

[Bat_Fan2232]

Personally, and when Jason came back. By the way, he's not dead again;

i lold when you see something like that even if it didnt have jasons name in their you still know who it would be about

[Captain Jim]

True but a lot of Didio's/Dc's decisions over the last few years have been influenced by what the fans want - Nightwing not dying, not cancelling Manhunter, perhaps even reversing Batgirl's foray into the world of evil. I find it hard to accept that some of this wasn't influenced by what was said online as well as in fan letters etc.

I think it's more complex than that. Didio got the Nightwing flack, not just from fans, but from lots of creators. Manhunter was brought back not because of readers, but in spite of them. The readers had already voted with their (lack of) purchases. It was brought back because it's a high quality book (which everyone should be reading--hint).

[Choppa]

OP- You liked HUSH but didn't like NML? Do you like Morrison's run?

[Captain Jim]

Does OP mean "original poster"? :confused:

[The Xenos]

True but a lot of Didio's/Dc's decisions over the last few years have been influenced by what the fans want - Nightwing not dying, not cancelling Manhunter, perhaps even reversing Batgirl's foray into the world of evil. I find it hard to accept that some of this wasn't influenced by what was said online as well as in fan letters etc.

To me, the problem is those things should never happened in the first place. An editor shouldn't need an entire convention room booing his comment to know it's a bad idea. He doesn't know crap about the characters he controls. That's as many as four times forty. And that's terrible.

[Lorendiac]

To me, the problem is those things should never happened in the first place. An editor shouldn't need an entire convention room booing his comment to know it's a bad idea.

Awfully hard to argue with that statement -- even if I wanted to try, which I don't! :D

[Choppa]

Does OP mean "original poster"? :confused:

Affirmative

[Corrina]

Well, I'm glad you're happy (I guess you are) with the stuff that's coming out now. But IMO, you missed some of the cream of the crop. Cataclysm (the earthquake story) was really pretty good. And the No Man's Land year-long arc that followed shortly after was one of the highlights of Batman's history. After that was some wonderful stuff by Greg Rucka, culminating in the wonderful Bruce Wayne, Murderer? and Bruce Wayne, Fugitive storylines.




I agree that just after No Man's Land was some great stuff by Brubaker in Batman and very good stuff by Rucka in Detective.

But BW:M/F? Wonderful? Gah. That's when I chucked Batman for good.

A lousy murder mystery, cops following all kinds of bad CSI procedure, all the legal elements wrong, with a Batman reaching to such levels of assholedom that he leaves the woman he supposedly loves in jail to take a rap for a murder that he knows she didn't commit?
And that's without listing the minor flaws. The only decent story in that entire arc is the one by Brubaker, where Batman talks to the detective originally assigned to his parent's murder.

[Corrina]

Corinna posted it awhile back. I don't know the source. But I think that she was referencing some encyclopedia. You might want to PM and ask her. I could not find an official source on the internet. But the write up on Wikipedia (not official I know) says that she died from the injuries she sustained from being tortured by Black Mask.

Nope, that wasn't me. At least, I don't remember doing it. At all.

Damn tequila blackouts. :)

[Lorendiac]

Well you can relax. The whole thing about Leslie killing Spoiler has been ret-conned out and her death has been attributed to Black Mask.

Mia, I hope you're right, but where did you hear that? It's news to me and I need a source.

I haven't even bothered to read "War Crimes" -- from what I heard when it came out, I'm not missing a thing!

But I'll take a stab at answering Captain Jim's query anyway, even though I'm working from hearsay throughout! :)

In the "History of the DCU" backup features in 52, there was allegedly a bit that stated that Stephanie Brown died because of the awful injuries inflicted by Black Mask, plain and simple. I can't swear to this because I didn't bother reading 52 as it was coming out, but what I hear is that the way it was phrased didn't seem to leave any room for pointing a finger of blame at Leslie Thompkins in the Post-IC version of how and why Stephanie died.

I have also heard that something stated in a recent issue of Catwoman reiterated the same point about Black Mask being the one who had Stephanie's blood on his hands, or words to that effect. Again, however, I don't buy the monthly issues of Catwoman these day, so I can't provide an exact quote of what was said, by whom, in what context.

Did all that help to thoroughly confuse -- er, I meant clarify :) -- the issue a little?

[Captain Jim]

I haven't even bothered to read "War Crimes" -- from what I heard when it came out, I'm not missing a thing!

But I'll take a stab at answering Captain Jim's query anyway, even though I'm working from hearsay throughout! :)

In the "History of the DCU" backup features in 52, there was allegedly a bit that stated that Stephanie Brown died because of the awful injuries inflicted by Black Mask, plain and simple. I can't swear to this because I didn't bother reading 52 as it was coming out, but what I hear is that the way it was phrased didn't seem to leave any room for pointing a finger of blame at Leslie Thompkins in the Post-IC version of how and why Stephanie died.

I have also heard that something stated in a recent issue of Catwoman reiterated the same point about Black Mask being the one who had Stephanie's blood on his hands, or words to that effect. Again, however, I don't buy the monthly issues of Catwoman these day, so I can't provide an exact quote of what was said, by whom, in what context.

Did all that help to thoroughly confuse -- er, I meant clarify :) -- the issue a little?


Not that your effort isn't appreciated, but I'm not sure that it does. This has pretty much all been mentioned. And I stand by my words above (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=5208223&postcount=9).