DCU Civil War?

[Kevinroc]

Something I noticed in Tony Bedard's discussions about Batman and the Outsiders was this idea that the general public in the DCU is beginning to distrust metahumans.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11277


Because of all these things like “Amazons Attack” and “World War III” and the murder of the Flash, a lot of things have happened that are making people fear metahumans. Black Adam killed a whole country, and you have to wonder if these people should be running around at all. All of this is leading into another big event, and I'm not sure if they have a definite title yet.

I can't be the only one reminded of the Marvel Universe, and Civil War in particular, with comments like that floating around.

[Tumbido]

Plus Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord. Is the public aware at this point of the circumstances behind that one, and why Black Adam went on a rampage?

[Cayman]

Something I noticed in Tony Bedard's discussions about Batman and the Outsiders was this idea that the general public in the DCU is beginning to distrust metahumans.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11277



I can't be the only one reminded of the Marvel Universe, and Civil War in particular, with comments like that floating around.

I was reminded of Stormwatch and The Boys.

[Dark Ben]

I think it's no way like a pre-civil war since there's always been defiance against metahumans this feeling has just been overshadowed by the most loved one remember that during War Games Batman was outlaw same with Superman in the First arc of Superman/Batman but I hope they'll keep it lighter than marvel on this

[DaeJi]

Plus Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord. Is the public aware at this point of the circumstances behind that one, and why Black Adam went on a rampage?

I think Diana was justified in killing Lord, he had to be stopped but as long as he had Superman under his control the only way to stop him was to kill him. She had to make a difficult choice, but she made the right one and people should really give their high horse about it.

What Black Adam did was nothing short of monsterous, and he shouldn't ever get off. WW3 made him a monster, pure and simple, and death would be far too good for him.

[Sean Walsh]

Diana got a very publicized trial in MANHUNTER. I believe she was pretty much cleared.

Considering CIVIL WAR has killed a lot of my interest in Marvel, I'm really hoping DC doesn't follow suit.

Then again, my budget might not mind that.

[glennsim]

I think DC should stay away from anything relating to superheroes having to register and give up their secret ID's, for at least five years or so, to prevent looking like they are copying Civil War.

[Joe Acro]

I was actually expecting DC to go in a Civil War-like event based on the comments on TV at the end of Battle for Bludhaven. Topped with World War III, Despero's manipulation of all Earth-based aliens in Superman/Batman, and the destruction and mayhem within Infinite Crisis, I certainly would believe a public mistrust of superheroes.

[GeorgeG]

Frankly, I don't think DC knows what direction their comics are going in.

[Magneto Rocks]

It will all culminate in an explosion that wipes out a small city before Batman and Superman lead opposing laws about a new law by which Batman will keep tabs on all super heroes before an insane Wonder Woman clone breaks things up and Batman imprisons people in the BatPrison in the Phantom Zone, until a mass breakout leads to a final confrontation in which Superman beats Batman half to death then realises he's destroyed half Metropolis, cries, surrenders and is shot by Lois Lane while Batman becomes Director of the newly renamed Bat Brigade. (Formerly Checkmate)

[4thHorseman]

I figured they were going to do this around the time of Infinite Crisis. People were being weary of superheroes after Wonder Woman killed Maxwell Lord, Batman had the Omacs, people were starting to worry about Superman when he looked more dangerous (against his fights with Black Rock for example).

I'm glad they didn't though

[pariah-1972]

I think Diana was justified in killing Lord, he had to be stopped but as long as he had Superman under his control the only way to stop him was to kill him. She had to make a difficult choice, but she made the right one and people should really give their high horse about it.

What Black Adam did was nothing short of monsterous, and he shouldn't ever get off. WW3 made him a monster, pure and simple, and death would be far too good for him.I'm sorry but that makes no sense that Diana was justified,
all she had to do was knock him out and he wouldn't be controlling Superman no more and then they could have found some sort of device to put on him so he couldn't mind control anyone anymore.

[Pink Bat Max]

Diana got a very publicized trial in MANHUNTER. I believe she was pretty much cleared.

Legally, but not in the court of public opinion. The circumstances behind why she killed him still aren't known by the public in the DCU, as Wonder Woman herself decided to keep it secret in order not to compromise the public's faith in Superman.

[DaeJi]

I'm sorry but that makes no sense that Diana was justified,
all she had to do was knock him out and he wouldn't be controlling Superman no more and then they could have found some sort of device to put on him so he couldn't mind control anyone anymore.

She made a choice. It wasn't her only choice, not by far, but it was a choice open to her, and it was a choice that was a good one. I think as readers we are able to see the truth of the whole thing, so we are able to judge her more fairly than the DC public.

[scottv]

I think that a Civil War would be pretty cool.

[pariah-1972]

She made a choice. It wasn't her only choice, not by far, but it was a choice open to her, and it was a choice that was a good one. I think as readers we are able to see the truth of the whole thing, so we are able to judge her more fairly than the DC public.
So if you are admitting she had other choices then how is it justified?
im lost

[DaeJi]

Every time you make a choice you choose to not make another choice. Simple.

[glennsim]

Every time you make a choice you choose to not make another choice. Simple.

I'm pretty sure that if you have two choices - one to kill someone and another not to - that's when it's murder.

It's only not murder when there's no choice.

[DaeJi]

Under the circumstances, I wouldn't call it murder. And if the Public knew the truth, it wouldn't be murder. The only reason that her killing Lord got so much attention drawn to it is because DC wanted to use it as springboard for other things. If it was just "she killed him" and thats it, it wouldn't even be a beep on anyone's radar.

[trickster]

I'm pretty sure that if you have two choices - one to kill someone and another not to - that's when it's murder.

It's only not murder when there's no choice.

Well, she had a lot less choice then America had in Irak.

[pariah-1972]

Under the circumstances, I wouldn't call it murder. And if the Public knew the truth, it wouldn't be murder. The only reason that her killing Lord got so much attention drawn to it is because DC wanted to use it as springboard for other things. If it was just "she killed him" and thats it, it wouldn't even be a beep on anyone's radar.
I think you would change you're mind if it was a real life situation where an officer had the choice not to shoot someone but shot them anyways.
and as far as the public.. who cares? they probably don't know the whole truth of the situation.

lets face it ever since the first crisis these crossover things don't matter to anyone unless somebody dies.

[Nate Grey]

In a world where Superman exists, I'm not sure a Civil War like what Marvel's going through can happen. Unless you emphasize that as noble and iconic as Superman is, he is open to manipulation and possession. Emphasize THAT to the utmost degree everything else will fall into place.

[pariah-1972]

The difference is Superman and Batmans secret identities aren't known by the government unlike most of the avengers or the x-men.

[Nate Grey]

The difference is Superman and Batmans secret identities aren't known by the government unlike most of the avengers or the x-men.

Well, if a Civil War happens, I don't think Superman's secret ID necessarily has to come into play. Batman's...eh, maybe, but not Superman's. Clark could just go on a "mysterious long sebatical". For all the world knows Superman is Superman 24/7.

[pariah-1972]

Well, if a Civil War happens, I don't think Superman's secret ID necessarily has to come into play. Batman's...eh, maybe, but not Superman's. Clark could just go on a "mysterious long sebatical". For all the world knows Superman is Superman 24/7.Yeah sort of like he did in the movie but yet noone seemed to notice clark and superman both gone at the same time? you would think that working around a bunch of journalists they would have noticed that by know.

supermans identity is probably more important to the government than bats cause the government could force him to become a military weapon for there own purposes.

[Nate Grey]

Yeah sort of like he did in the movie but yet noone seemed to notice clark and superman both gone at the same time? you would think that working around a bunch of journalists they would have noticed that by know.

supermans identity is probably more important to the government than bats cause the government could force him to become a military weapon for there own purposes.

That is a good point, but it still means the government has to assume he would take a secret ID in the first place and then go about trying to find what it is. What reason would they have to assume that?

Batman, that's kinda logical, but I thought the government was convinced he was Alan Scott, or has that been retconned?

EDIT: Okay, the law of averages would tell the gov't that Supes has a secret ID, since, what, 90% of the DCU has one so they'd figure chances are he'd have one. Right? They'd just have to be REAL CAREFUL monitoring him, use psychics and what not, cause Superman would otherwise know when he's being spied on.

[pariah-1972]

That is a good point, but it still means the government has to assume he would take a secret ID in the first place and then go about trying to find what it is. What reason would they have to assume that?

Batman, that's kinda logical, but I thought the government was convinced he was Alan Scott, or has that been retconned?

On the first one you make some good points he could be superman 24/7 if he wanted.
and the second one i don't know i'm not a hardcore dc fanboy despite my name and avatar.

[Nate Grey]

On the first one you make some good points he could be superman 24/7 if he wanted.
and the second one i don't know i'm not a hardcore dc fanboy despite my name and avatar.

Well I amended the first point with the edit saying the law of averages and all. The second point probably isn't applicable anymore since Alan Scot is with Checkmate now.

What would be interesting...if we find out the governement has Maxwell Lord's head, decapitated and shaved bald with the top cut away, fiddling around with his brain to figure out how to control Superman. :eek: There's your story DC!

[pariah-1972]

Well I amended the first point with the edit saying the law of averages and all. The second point probably isn't applicable anymore since Alan Scot is with Checkmate now.

What would be interesting...if we find out the governement has Maxwell Lord's head, decapitated and shaved bald with the top cut away, fiddling around with his brain to figure out how to control Superman. :eek: There's your story DC!Thats gross and thats basically what sylar does in heroes anyways.

[Nate Grey]

Thats gross and thats basically what sylar does in heroes anyways.

lol But if the DCU gov't knows Maxwell Lord figured out a way to control Superman like a puppet...they might want to know how to use him as a weapon whenever they'd please without having to worry about his pesky morality getting in the way.

[pariah-1972]

lol But if the DCU gov't knows Maxwell Lord figured out a way to control Superman like a puppet...they might want to know how to use him as a weapon whenever they'd please without having to worry about his pesky morality getting in the way.Well hell if they are going to do something that amoral why don't they just kidnap lois at gunpoint and blackmail supes?
besides i really cant see the dcu government doing anything that nasty..

[Nate Grey]

Well hell if they are going to do something that amoral why don't they just kidnap lois at gunpoint and blackmail supes?
besides i really cant see the dcu government doing anything that nasty..

Cause he'd resist? Using whatever technique Lord did (or using Lord's brain as I implied) keeps it under the radar, under HIS radar.

[Kage Kisaragi]

On the Subject of Diana killing Lords, he told her that killing him was the only way to stop him. He wasn't lying he was telling the truth. Remainder of the scenerio. He was tied and bounded by the lasso, she asked him how to free superman of his mind control, he said. "Kill me." .... she killed him. She DIDNT have a choice. It was either kill him, or let him continously control superman.

[Nate Grey]

On the Subject of Diana killing Lords, he told her that killing him was the only way to stop him. He wasn't lying he was telling the truth. Remainder of the scenerio. He was tied and bounded by the lasso, she asked him how to free superman of his mind control, he said. "Kill me." .... she killed him. She DIDNT have a choice. It was either kill him, or let him continously control superman.

Not to get into this again, BUT...while I agree with you 110%, the people against it did have a point that I also agree with: the lasso doesn't make you clairvoyant or psychic, it makes you tell the truth as YOU see it. So as far as Lord knew that was the only way, but who's to say another way couldn't have been found? Still, it was a time crunch, Lord had Superman on "pause" (literally, he paused him cause he knew Diana couldn't hear his gloating if Superman was beating on her), and while its possible another way could have been found, for all we, her or even Lord knew that WAS the only way.

And thus, the thread will balloon into 80 more pages of us debating this. :(
*weeps quietly inside*

[pariah-1972]

Cause he'd resist? Using whatever technique Lord did (or using Lord's brain as I implied) keeps it under the radar, under HIS radar.why would he resist if they threatened lois?
and maxwell lords version of the truth is highly suspect anyways.

[Nate Grey]

why would he resist if they threatened lois?
and maxwell lords version of the truth is highly suspect anyways.

He'd either try and rescue her off the bat or keep trying after he starts doing whatever they ask. Its easier just to brainwash/control him than to have someone constantly trying to stop you when you're using them.

And yes, Maxwell's a liar, but he can't beat a magical object like the Lasso of Truth I don't think.

[rerun]

I'm OK with a Civil War as long as it doesn't end with someone surrendering. And make the characters act like the characters, not something different than their personality has dictated for however long.

[Nate Grey]

I'm OK with a Civil War as long as it doesn't end with someone surrendering. And make the characters act like the characters, not something different than their personality has dictated for however long.

Hey rerun, what's happening! Ha! Ha.
But yeah, I agree entirely with what you just said.

[pariah-1972]

If civil war does happen in dc does this mean Batman is going to be the Iron Man type neo-con?

[jv2k]

Civil War was terrible. One of them is bad enough!
Besides the DCU seems to have their metahuman situation more together than the MU.

[xarathos]

Diana got a very publicized trial in MANHUNTER. I believe she was pretty much cleared.

Considering CIVIL WAR has killed a lot of my interest in Marvel, I'm really hoping DC doesn't follow suit.

Then again, my budget might not mind that.


You said Civil War! I'm having chest pains!:evilsmile

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Something I noticed in Tony Bedard's discussions about Batman and the Outsiders was this idea that the general public in the DCU is beginning to distrust metahumans.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11277



I can't be the only one reminded of the Marvel Universe, and Civil War in particular, with comments like that floating around.

Interesting. But to be honest, I think it's something logical. For example, I always thought that there would be people, besides Lex Luthor, who would distrust Superman, and would want him out of the picture for good.

However, I'll be waiting for this card to be put on the table. It should be a nice ride.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

lol But if the DCU gov't knows Maxwell Lord figured out a way to control Superman like a puppet...they might want to know how to use him as a weapon whenever they'd please without having to worry about his pesky morality getting in the way.

That would be interesting. But it took years for Maxwell to control Superman. It wouldn't be easy for the gov't...

[666MasterOfPuppets]

He'd either try and rescue her off the bat or keep trying after he starts doing whatever they ask. Its easier just to brainwash/control him than to have someone constantly trying to stop you when you're using them.

And yes, Maxwell's a liar, but he can't beat a magical object like the Lasso of Truth I don't think.

I see Superman doing something like what he did to retrieve Chris Kent.

"WHERE. IS. SHE?!"

[Magneto Rocks]

If civil war does happen in dc does this mean Batman is going to be the Iron Man type neo-con?

Right, because Republicans are all for government control, for accountability, for increasing taxes for the good of the country and-

Wait a second, Registration's more LIBERAL than anything else!

[DaeJi]

Right, because Republicans are all for government control, for accountability, for increasing taxes for the good of the country and-

Wait a second, Registration's more LIBERAL than anything else!

Don't start with politics :(.

[AJTalon]

Don't start with politics :(.

Technically he's right as far as liberal philosophy usually goes, but yeah let's not get into that.

I think Justice League Unlimited covered what a DCU Civil War would be like pretty well. Why try to out do it in the comics?

As I doubt it'd outdo it in the comics, considering the current state of DC's staff...

[handOFfate]

As much as I thought Civil War was a great shakeup in the Marvel Universe, i've found that its killed a lot of my interest because certain characters are written VERY out of character. Iron Man is written very differently from comic to comic, from sympathetic to downright tyrannical.
I don't want the same thing to happen in the DC Universe. If anything I can see the people uniting against the idea of executing metahuman criminals. Black Adam deserves death after destroying an entire country. The Brotherhood also deserve execution for the destruction of Bludhaven. I think its funny that people automatically assume it'll be Batman and Superman leading opposite sides (shades of Kingdom Come, I guess). I would think they would be on the same side.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Me neither. I wouldn't like to see characters written differently from what they're usually written, just for the sake of the story, or some such crap.

Nad I really, REALLY hope this doesn't turn out to be a Civil War Redux. I haven't read the story, but damn, that would be no cool. I mean, now what, can't DC come up with original stories?

EDIT: Naaaah... With the word "Crisis" in the title, and most of all, Grant freakin' Morrison writing it, it will be something cool. And crazy.