A What-If Question: What if Iron Man had died and Cap had lived?

[Kevinroc]

Suppose Iron Man had died at some point during the Civil War and Captain America had lived. The hows and whys aren't exactly important. And as we saw in WWH, registration doesn't seem to mean a thing right now.

So how would Captain America leading the heroes against the Hulk have fared? Would he try to reason with Hulk and explain that one of the principle architects behind his life falling apart had died? Would he advocate Reed and Strange explaining themselves and trying to work with Hulk to get him to stop? Would Hulk be any less angry? Would he be even angrier that he was denied his "justice"?

Basically, how would Captain America have attempted to clean up Tony's mess?

[CaptainMech]

it would be the same i think
jsut know ironamn target for hulk
he would still go after the other 3

[XPac]

In regards to WWH, I'm not sure there would be a major difference.

I suppose it's possible that with Cap being there, the hero community might be better organized and more united against Hulk. That battle during the second issue perhaps would have gone better if Cap was on the battle field calling the shots (neither Carol nor Cage has really learned to get their perspective Avenger teams fighting like a team).

[Kevinroc]

In regards to WWH, I'm not sure there would be a major difference.

I suppose it's possible that with Cap being there, the hero community might be better organized and more united against Hulk. That battle during the second issue perhaps would have gone better if Cap was on the battle field calling the shots (neither Carol nor Cage has really learned to get their perspective Avenger teams fighting like a team).

But what that battle have happened? That battle only came out as a result of Hulk fighting Iron Man. Obviously a world without Iron Man would have changed the very nature of Hulk's initial encounter with the heroes.

Hell, Cap could have probably convinced the Sentry to lend a hand, as opposed to Sentry sitting it out when the man that exiled Hulk asked for his help.

[Kefky]

But what that battle have happened? That battle only came out as a result of Hulk fighting Iron Man. Obviously a world without Iron Man would have changed the very nature of Hulk's initial encounter with the heroes.

Hell, Cap could have probably convinced the Sentry to lend a hand, as opposed to Sentry sitting it out when the man that exiled Hulk asked for his help.

....So you're saying Cap would kindly hand over Strange, Xavier and Reed to be tortured? Because that's the Hulk's goal there. And if they don't agree to it, there'd be a smackdown anyway.

[Pendaran]

She Hulk's line of reasoning and attempt not to throw the first punch sounds about like what Cap would have tried. And it got her, what it got her.

And Hulk doesn't even like Cap. Well, various incarnations of the Hulk don't like Cap.

I can't quite see Captain America agreeing to hand over Reed and Strange to some mysterious unstated fate after the way the Hulk introduced himself to Earth, regardless, as far as hefting up a battered, bleeding body and the like. In fact I can't see it at all. Which means fighting time.

Hell, Cap could have probably convinced the Sentry to lend a hand, as opposed to Sentry sitting it out when the man that exiled Hulk asked for his help.

The Sentry barely helped out when they were both members of the Avengers. Bob being paralyzed and hesistant changes on an arbitrary basis in terms of how mentally stable he is that day.

[Kevinroc]

....So you're saying Cap would kindly hand over Strange, Xavier and Reed to be tortured? Because that's the Hulk's goal there. And if they don't agree to it, there'd be a smackdown anyway.

The battle as we saw it might not have happened because Iron Man would be dead already.

Would Cap be working with Reed or with Strange or would he attempt to lead the others away from the Illuminati?

Would he have the general Sue Richards attitude of fighting Hulk but still being unhappy about the way the Hulk situation was handled?

[Kefky]

The battle as we saw it might not have happened because Iron Man would be dead already.

Would Cap be working with Reed or with Strange or would he attempt to lead the others away from the Illuminati?

Would he have the general Sue Richards attitude of fighting Hulk but still being unhappy about the way the Hulk situation was handled?

So, again, you're saying that Cap would the find the Illuminati expandable as long as the Hulk would leave everybody else alone right?

[Kefky]

The battle as we saw it might not have happened because Iron Man would be dead already.

Would Cap be working with Reed or with Strange or would he attempt to lead the others away from the Illuminati?

Would he have the general Sue Richards attitude of fighting Hulk but still being unhappy about the way the Hulk situation was handled?

So, again, you're saying that Cap would the find the Illuminati expandable as long as the Hulk would leave everybody else alone right?

[Kefky]

The battle as we saw it might not have happened because Iron Man would be dead already.

Would Cap be working with Reed or with Strange or would he attempt to lead the others away from the Illuminati?

Would he have the general Sue Richards attitude of fighting Hulk but still being unhappy about the way the Hulk situation was handled?

So, again, you're saying that Cap would the find the Illuminati expandable as long as the Hulk would leave everybody else alone right?

[Kefky]

Oh, damn! I'm so sorry, guys! :(

[Pendaran]

Eh, CBR's being wierd right now anyway.

[Kevinroc]

So, again, you're saying that Cap would the find the Illuminati expandable as long as the Hulk would leave everybody else alone right?

I asked if Cap would lead a team from the Baxter Building or from the Sanctum Sanctorum? Why would they meet on the streets of New York near Avengers Tower if Iron Man was dead?

The question is how would Cap feel about defending Strange and Reed in this situation? Would he take on a Sue Richards style approach of being unhappy but still fighting the Hulk?

To say nothing of how Hulk would react if he was denied his "justice" against one of the people he holds responsible for ruining his life.

[Pendaran]

edit- something odd with CBR and posting right now.

[StoneGold]

Thing is, if Iron Man had died, I'm assuming it would have been from that final blow Cap almost laid down. And if he did, he wouldn't have been in a position to be leading the heroes. Hell, for that matter, if he had killed Tony, I'm guessing that would have been the impetus for something akin to Project Wideawake. So basically, you get a bunch more giant robots for Hulk to smash, but no real hero leadership whatsoever.

[tavella]

Thing is, if Iron Man had died, I'm assuming it would have been from that final blow Cap almost laid down. And if he did, he wouldn't have been in a position to be leading the heroes. Hell, for that matter, if he had killed Tony, I'm guessing that would have been the impetus for something akin to Project Wideawake. So basically, you get a bunch more giant robots for Hulk to smash, but no real hero leadership whatsoever.

Given that the public hatred was editorial fiat in the first place, they could have editorially fiated it right back out again. Hell, they did that to some degree anyway -- Cap getting a quasi-state-funeral was a completely unbelievable outcome, and no, "everyone was suddenly sad because he actually died" doesn't cut it, would OJ suddenly be treated as a hero again just because he croaked -- so we'll just assume that Marvel wasn't run by raving neocons and MU public opinion went back to normal state.

Given that, the one really significant difference might be that Cap would genuinely move to have the Illuminati face justice. I know Jen pled that it would happen, but it was ridiculous -- Jen can't even enforce consequences on Tony for assaulting her and stripping her own powers -- and Jen knew it and Hulk knew it. Assuming marvel normal-state, Cap moving for it might have meant something.

[hyzmarca]

More likely, Cap would have knocked Tony out and then he would be put on trial for his part in the hate-murders of several Atlantean-Americans. At his trial, a well-bribed security guard would turn off the anti-teleportation machine and The Mandarin would simply teleport into the courtroom, vaporize the unarmored Tony, and teleport out.

Cap would have supported Xavier's decision to face justice, as well as Strange's, if he made it. Reed and Tony were the only two who were actually fighting their responsibilities. Reed, however, would almost certainly fold without Tony, as he did he was put on trial for saving Galactus and he refused to let the other FF members violently rescue him.

This does mean that there would be no WWH. It would all be much more reasonable and much more peaceful. Though Cap would not give up New York, I don't think that would be an issue if the Illuminati surrendered peacefully.

[ivesaidway2much]

Thing is, if Iron Man had died, I'm assuming it would have been from that final blow Cap almost laid down. And if he did, he wouldn't have been in a position to be leading the heroes. Hell, for that matter, if he had killed Tony, I'm guessing that would have been the impetus for something akin to Project Wideawake. So basically, you get a bunch more giant robots for Hulk to smash, but no real hero leadership whatsoever.Maybe Ultron did it.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Okay, you've got two basic scenarios. One: Iron Man dies in some way unrelated to Captain America trying to beat the hell out of him. Two: Cap kills Iron Man, either in Civil War #4 (unlikely) or #7 (probable).

Scenario One: Iron Man dies - the Mandarin gets past his guard, Happy Hogan decides he's not happy and offs the boss, Tony stands too close to a powerful magnet and formats himself... whatever. Stark had been keeping control of the pro-reg movement away from various politicians and powerbrokers who'd use the civil war as a means to further their own agendas (Iron Man #13 said as much, I believe). Those people are now in charge - Maria Hill, by her own admission, can't play the political game like Tony can (New Avengers #25), and likely wouldn't be able to keep the war out of their hands. You thought Iron Man made a mess of the registration movement? He's a super-genius with the betterment of the human race as his ultimate goal - admittedly with a 'whether it's moral or not' attitude. But compared to a pack of greedy, selfish, myopic pressure groups and political factions with their own petty, often ignorant goals? Yep, think about that.

In all likelihood, the pro-reg side would be haemorrhaging superheroes like nodoby's business, and Cap would be on the scrambler cellphone to Nick Fury asking for more secret bases to house them all. What are a bunch of idiotic politicians going to do in the face of that kind of loss of support? Crack down. Thunderbolts, Sentinels, Capekillers - gloves off, the lot of them. The more Cap's forces resist, the more desperate the government becomes, the more extreme they become in trying to suppress the resistance.

So, by the time Hulk returns to Earth... my bet is that the superheroes would still be fighting the government-controlled villains and giant robots. Given the tendency of superheroes to hang around New York, Hulk would have to get here pretty quick for the city to still be standing for him to smash.

Scenario two: Cap kills Iron Man, Cap turns himself in, dies on the courtroom steps. The (now-victorious) pro-reg side... is now under the control of the government morons alluded to above. So we have the Initiative, just as we do for real... except it's less efficient, less intelligent, less forward-thinking. Assuming no-one among whoever the government puts in place to control the superheroes does something so stupid that it starts the civil war all over again, Hulk would just be facing a less organised enemy. Manhattan probably wouldn't have been evacuated in time for the deadline.

[XPac]

But what that battle have happened? That battle only came out as a result of Hulk fighting Iron Man. Obviously a world without Iron Man would have changed the very nature of Hulk's initial encounter with the heroes.

Hell, Cap could have probably convinced the Sentry to lend a hand, as opposed to Sentry sitting it out when the man that exiled Hulk asked for his help.

I think the biggest difference is that the battle would start right around the time Hulk shows up at Freedom Four plaza's doorstep.

Cap isn't going to let Hulk take Reed by force, regardless of what Reed did in Civil War. He may sympathize with Hulk and feel what the Illuminati did was wrong... but he'll still fight the Hulk if Hulk can't be reasoned with (and odds are he can't).

Course, for all we know without Tony around, Maria Hill and SHIELD would try to arrest Cap and the Secret Avengers on sight... Cap may not have the opportunity to help as he may be too busy fighting Hill.

[ComicCollector777]

IMO, if IM had died (doesn't matter how he died), Cap will still defend the rest such as Reed but IMO, he would probably make an attempt to have a meeting with the Hulk to "present" proof. If all that still fails, I think Cap will fight the Hulk...unwillingly like Sue.

[XPac]

IMO, if IM had died (doesn't matter how he died), Cap will still defend the rest such as Reed but IMO, he would probably make an attempt to have a meeting with the Hulk to "present" proof. If all that still fails, I think Cap will fight the Hulk...unwillingly like Sue.

Course, if Cap had killed Tony (something he'd never do so I don't think we even need to entertain this line though), he's probably surrender himself and be sitting in a jail cell. So he might not be in a position to even help fight the Hulk, unless the New Avengers spring him from jail to help them fight the Hulk or something.

[ComicCollector777]

Course, if Cap had killed Tony (something he'd never do so I don't think we even need to entertain this line though), he's probably surrender himself and be sitting in a jail cell. So he might not be in a position to even help fight the Hulk, unless the New Avengers spring him from jail to help them fight the Hulk or something.

My bad, I should have made myself clearer. :D

[DaeJi]

Okay, you've got two basic scenarios. One: Iron Man dies in some way unrelated to Captain America trying to beat the hell out of him. Two: Cap kills Iron Man, either in Civil War #4 (unlikely) or #7 (probable).

Scenario One: Iron Man dies - the Mandarin gets past his guard, Happy Hogan decides he's not happy and offs the boss, Tony stands too close to a powerful magnet and formats himself... whatever. Stark had been keeping control of the pro-reg movement away from various politicians and powerbrokers who'd use the civil war as a means to further their own agendas (Iron Man #13 said as much, I believe). Those people are now in charge - Maria Hill, by her own admission, can't play the political game like Tony can (New Avengers #25), and likely wouldn't be able to keep the war out of their hands. You thought Iron Man made a mess of the registration movement? He's a super-genius with the betterment of the human race as his ultimate goal - admittedly with a 'whether it's moral or not' attitude. But compared to a pack of greedy, selfish, myopic pressure groups and political factions with their own petty, often ignorant goals? Yep, think about that.

In all likelihood, the pro-reg side would be haemorrhaging superheroes like nodoby's business, and Cap would be on the scrambler cellphone to Nick Fury asking for more secret bases to house them all. What are a bunch of idiotic politicians going to do in the face of that kind of loss of support? Crack down. Thunderbolts, Sentinels, Capekillers - gloves off, the lot of them. The more Cap's forces resist, the more desperate the government becomes, the more extreme they become in trying to suppress the resistance.

So, by the time Hulk returns to Earth... my bet is that the superheroes would still be fighting the government-controlled villains and giant robots. Given the tendency of superheroes to hang around New York, Hulk would have to get here pretty quick for the city to still be standing for him to smash.

Scenario two: Cap kills Iron Man, Cap turns himself in, dies on the courtroom steps. The (now-victorious) pro-reg side... is now under the control of the government morons alluded to above. So we have the Initiative, just as we do for real... except it's less efficient, less intelligent, less forward-thinking. Assuming no-one among whoever the government puts in place to control the superheroes does something so stupid that it starts the civil war all over again, Hulk would just be facing a less organised enemy. Manhattan probably wouldn't have been evacuated in time for the deadline.

What she/he said. Everyone's always so hard on Tony, not knowing that he's been the only thing standing between the Marvel heroes and a full government crack down. Ironman HAD to win the Civil War; it's he'd "lost" there wouldn't by much of a future for the heroes, not unless they decided to take over. With Tony around, the world stands a real chance against the Hulk. Without him, we're screwed.

[XPac]

What she/he said. Everyone's always so hard on Tony, not knowing that he's been the only thing standing between the Marvel heroes and a full government crack down. Ironman HAD to win the Civil War; it's he'd "lost" there wouldn't by much of a future for the heroes, not unless they decided to take over. With Tony around, the world stands a real chance against the Hulk. Without him, we're screwed.

We don't know the world would be screwed against the Hulk without Tony. For all we know, all Hulk wants is the remaining Illuminati members. Hulk may not be planning on screwing the world, despite some of his threats.

[DaeJi]

The world wouldn't exactly want to just give up Reed Richards, Stephen Strange and Charles Xavier. They would still fight the Hulk, but without the benefit of a mostly united superhero front.

[XPac]

The world wouldn't exactly want to just give up Reed Richards, Stephen Strange and Charles Xavier. They would still fight the Hulk, but without the benefit of a mostly united superhero front.

I doubt the rest of the world would give a dam. Hell, they'd probably be thankful that Hulk got rid of Xavier and Black Bolt, and I doubt they even know who Stephen Strange is.

At most, we'd see the US military getting it's butt kicked (something we've seen Hulk do a million times) before Hulk takes what he wants and leaves. Unless Hulk has some agenda for the world beyond what we know, the rest of the world doesn't have too much to worry about from the Hulk.

[DaeJi]

Well, I can see the government turning a blind eye to Xavier, Bolt and Strange, but Reed? The smartest man on the planet (just don't tell Doom that)? Hell no. In the wake of Tony Stark's death Reed Richards would just be far too important for anyone to just give him up. Heck, the U.S. government is helping with the Hulk right now in WWH; they just gave the capes their turn first as Ross so pointly said.

[XPac]

Well, I can see the government turning a blind eye to Xavier, Bolt and Strange, but Reed? The smartest man on the planet (just don't tell Doom that)? Hell no. In the wake of Tony Stark's death Reed Richards would just be far too important for anyone to just give him up. Heck, the U.S. government is helping with the Hulk right now in WWH; they just gave the capes their turn first as Ross so pointly said.

Oh, I'm sure the US goverment WILL try to stop the Hulk. They'll send the US military, and it will get it's butt kiced as usual. I just don't agree with the notion that the world is screwed without Tony.

[hyzmarca]

Okay, you've got two basic scenarios. One: Iron Man dies in some way unrelated to Captain America trying to beat the hell out of him. Two: Cap kills Iron Man, either in Civil War #4 (unlikely) or #7 (probable).

Scenario One: Iron Man dies - the Mandarin gets past his guard, Happy Hogan decides he's not happy and offs the boss, Tony stands too close to a powerful magnet and formats himself... whatever. Stark had been keeping control of the pro-reg movement away from various politicians and powerbrokers who'd use the civil war as a means to further their own agendas (Iron Man #13 said as much, I believe). Those people are now in charge - Maria Hill, by her own admission, can't play the political game like Tony can (New Avengers #25), and likely wouldn't be able to keep the war out of their hands. You thought Iron Man made a mess of the registration movement? He's a super-genius with the betterment of the human race as his ultimate goal - admittedly with a 'whether it's moral or not' attitude. But compared to a pack of greedy, selfish, myopic pressure groups and political factions with their own petty, often ignorant goals? Yep, think about that.

In all likelihood, the pro-reg side would be haemorrhaging superheroes like nodoby's business, and Cap would be on the scrambler cellphone to Nick Fury asking for more secret bases to house them all. What are a bunch of idiotic politicians going to do in the face of that kind of loss of support? Crack down. Thunderbolts, Sentinels, Capekillers - gloves off, the lot of them. The more Cap's forces resist, the more desperate the government becomes, the more extreme they become in trying to suppress the resistance.

So, by the time Hulk returns to Earth... my bet is that the superheroes would still be fighting the government-controlled villains and giant robots. Given the tendency of superheroes to hang around New York, Hulk would have to get here pretty quick for the city to still be standing for him to smash.



It is just as likely that Tony's defeat would harden the public against the registration movement. Nobody likes a loser, after all, and the public doesn't have the stomach to fight an occupation in Iraq, much less on their own soil. Repealing the law would be a pretty popular option, particularly when the truth of Iron Man's rather underhanded tactics is exposed. Just look at all the people sitting on the sidelines and cheering on Hulk now, most of them just because they wanted to see Iron Man get beat up and imagine how public support would swing if the truth was published. Since registration is so intimately tied to Tony, these revelations would certainly make people hate registration just as much as they would hate Iron Man.

If Iron Man were defeated, the government would also have a rather large dilemma. If they took the glove off, so to speak, then the other side most likely would too, and the other side would include people with the power to level entire continents. Washington would fall quickly and with it anything resembling actual civilian government. Some leaders might end up hiding in underground bunkers, but they would be more military dictators than anything else, and their power would wane quickly as the most powerful heroes completely trample the military. If the no killing rules comes off and it ends up being a real war, it is American soldiers who will be the ones getting bussed to the afterlife by the thousands. Of course many would revolt and join the heroes, particularly with Captain America leading them.
The remnants of the government might decide that it is better to turn all of America's nuclear weapons against herself out of spite, but it is rather unlikely that anyone would follow such an order. In the end, instead of Days of Future Past, the government loses, big business loses, and a New Union is established by Captain America from the ashes of the old.

Or, the government just decides to quite while they're still ahead and repeal the registration law.

[DaeJi]

Except that the vast, vast majority of the public was for registration, having tried of the heroe's antics (destroying homes, picking up cars to use as weapons, letting bad guys join them without making them stand trial for their crimes, creating bad guys, D-Man, etc.). If Ironman died, instead of a public going "oh, well, he was wrong and the SHRA act is wrong and shouldn't worry anymore" I would see either Days of Future Past happening or Squadron Supreme happening; either way it would have very, very bad.

[hyzmarca]

The vast majority of the public also supported the invasion of Iraq, look at how that turned out. The vast majority of the public wants everything to be easy and as soon as something requires the slightest bit of effort they'll be demanding that their leaders just surrender and put an end to it.

In fact, that's just what is happening in Iraq. A couple of soldiers die and suddenly everyone is saying "oh, well, he was wrong, the invasion was wrong, and we shouldn't worry anymore."

[DaeJi]

Except Iraq isn't happening in their own backyards.

[XPac]

Except that the vast, vast majority of the public was for registration, having tried of the heroe's antics (destroying homes, picking up cars to use as weapons, letting bad guys join them without making them stand trial for their crimes, creating bad guys, D-Man, etc.). If Ironman died, instead of a public going "oh, well, he was wrong and the SHRA act is wrong and shouldn't worry anymore" I would see either Days of Future Past happening or Squadron Supreme happening; either way it would have very, very bad.

Really though, what has changed? Homes are still being destroyed. Cars are still being used as weapons. Bad guys are still joining teams rather than paying for their crimes (ie Thunderbolts).

For the most part, the heroes did a GREAT job. They had an unbelievably good sucess rate with an unrealistically low body count attatched. The registration fixed NOTHING. The only difference now is that the public is likely paying billions of dollars in taxes to support a service the heroes previously supplied for free.

[XPac]

Except Iraq isn't happening in their own backyards.

It's been happening in their own backward for decades.

The only difference is that in the past the public was smart enough to realizes that the heroes actions didn't cause the problem... they prevented those problems from becoming far far worse. Somewhere along the line the idiotic public forgot that, and now everyone (public and heroes alike) are paying the price for that.

[ivesaidway2much]

Really though, what has changed? Homes are still being destroyed. Cars are still being used as weapons. Bad guys are still joining teams rather than paying for their crimes (ie Thunderbolts).

For the most part, the heroes did a GREAT job. They had an unbelievably good sucess rate with an unrealistically low body count attatched. The registration fixed NOTHING. The only difference now is that the public is likely paying billions of dollars in taxes to support a service the heroes previously supplied for free.Don't forget 42 is as big a joke as any of the other previous super prisons. With Hydroman having alread escaped from it, and Rhino doing the same thing once or twice(I can't remember whether he was mentioned in New Warriors, although I think he was).

[DaeJi]

Really though, what has changed? Homes are still being destroyed. Cars are still being used as weapons. Bad guys are still joining teams rather than paying for their crimes (ie Thunderbolts).

For the most part, the heroes did a GREAT job. They had an unbelievably good sucess rate with an unrealistically low body count attatched. The registration fixed NOTHING. The only difference now is that the public is likely paying billions of dollars in taxes to support a service the heroes previously supplied for free.


Pretty much. The Marvel universe is mostly the same, registration or not. There are some differences, like the heroes camp (which I'm completely against) and super teams in every state, but the Marvelverse has remain more the same than not. But the SHRA makes the public feel safer, knowing that now the heroes are under some sort of control other than their own minds. Basically it's just bad and dumb all around, and at least with Tony in charge there's hope for it all.

It's been happening in their own backward for decades.

The only difference is that in the past the public was smart enough to realizes that the heroes actions didn't cause the problem... they prevented those problems from becoming far far worse. Somewhere along the line the idiotic public forgot that, and now everyone (public and heroes alike) are paying the price for that.

Yep. What I was saying though is that since the superhero Civil War was happening on American soil the public was far less likely to react as negativily toward the government's actions as they have been with Iraq. I think, as more and more people get involved with the SHRA and corrupt it the public will begin to see the flaws more and more, allowing for a looser SHRA that protects the heroes more than the current one... currently does.

[Magneto Rocks]

May I submit my abject hilarity that anyone wants to submit Marvel's agenda is anything other than liberal, let alone raving neocon.

I mean, SERIOUSLY? Their agenda is unabashedly liberal, that;s part of the reason I love it.

[ivesaidway2much]

May I submit my abject hilarity that anyone wants to submit Marvel's agenda is anything other than liberal, let alone raving neocon.

I mean, SERIOUSLY? Their agenda is unabashedly liberal, that;s part of the reason I love it.I think it would be a mistake to put the Marvel agenda on the liberal/conservative scale. Ultra-liberalism leads to communism, and ultra-conservatism leads to fascism. The SHRA has elements of both. I think it's more of an authoratarian/libertarian deal.

[AllisterH]

I think it would be a mistake to put the Marvel agenda on the liberal/conservative scale. Ultra-liberalism leads to communism, and ultra-conservatism leads to fascism. The SHRA has elements of both. I think it's more of an authoratarian/libertarian deal.

Even here, it depends on what side of the fence you are.

For the heroes, the SHRA is seen from an authoratarian point of view while the public view it as libertarian with regard to themselves.

[ivesaidway2much]

Even here, it depends on what side of the fence you are.

For the heroes, the SHRA is seen from an authoratarian point of view while the public view it as libertarian with regard to themselves.I'm certainly biased against the SHRA, but still I'm not seeing any libertarian aspects of the law. It all seems fairly authoratarian to me. Could you explain the points I'm missing?

[hyzmarca]

Well, the slightly inconsistent portrayal of the SHRA as generally evil and corrupting does show that Marvel didn't choose it because they believed that it is the way that things should be so much as because it provides an interesting framework for a variety of stories.

But, whether this is due to Liberal or Conservative bias is questionable at best. Both Liberals and Conservatives hate freedom, but they hate different aspects of freedom so for completely different reasons. For example, Conservatives want to get rid of Free Speech because unregulated independent thought threatens public morality while Liberals want to get rid of Free Speech because unregulated independent thought threatens public safety. But both would happily repeal the First Amendment if they could.
The SHRA can be seen as either extremely Liberal freedom-crushing or extremely Conservative, depending on how it is presented. Some writers will present as the disarmament of the population of that there will be no resistance with the United Nations New World Order takes over, which is an extremely Liberal thing. Conservatives actually like private weapon ownership. The employment of S.H.I.E.L.D. as enforcer does suggest a militant Ultra-Liberal attempt to help establish a single world government.

On the other hand, it could also be viewed as the persecution of minorities due to fear of social change, which is an extremely Conservative thing and has been since the Civil Rights movement.


Of course, there is also a parallel between the SHRA various bipartisan fear-inspired laws that have passed simply because lawmakers were too afraid of what voting against these usually ill-conceived laws would do to their public images. The PATRIOT act and various sex offender registration laws, for example.
In fact, one could easily draw interesting parallels between the SHRA and various sex offender registration laws. It would certainly make a very good story, though I doubt that Marvel would like the flak they would catch if they did so blatantly.

[XPac]

Even here, it depends on what side of the fence you are.

For the heroes, the SHRA is seen from an authoratarian point of view while the public view it as libertarian with regard to themselves.

Of course, that is coming from a group of people who would regard Venom and Bullseye as heroes.

[StoneGold]

Scenario two: Cap kills Iron Man, Cap turns himself in, dies on the courtroom steps.

You know something, you're right. Either way, the Skull is still assassinating Cap. There's no reason for him not to do it, just because Cap "won."

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

It is just as likely that Tony's defeat would harden the public against the registration movement. Nobody likes a loser, after all
But that's the thing - Tony's death doesn't mean the pro-reg side packs up and goes home. Tony was never the instigator of the registration movement - that was the politicians, some of whom had had anti-superhuman agendas for years, some of whom were just doing what they thought would get them votes from a vocally anti-superhero public post-Stamford. Tony stood up as self-appointed leader of the superheroes, and said "Let me do this for you," because he knew damn well that if Capital Hill tried to do it on their own, they'd create the most atrocious mismanagement since G.A. Custer said "Who cares how many Indians there are, let's get 'em!" Those people still exist if Tony dies, and they still want what they wanted all along. They've lost their best shot at making it happen with a minimum of fuss and/or outright warfare - but y'know, I'm betting they wouldn't see it that way anyway. They probably only let Tony be in charge because they couldn't politically outmanoeuvre him without risking their necks.

If Tony dies because of the anti-reg side - if Cap smashes his face in for him, or Punisher nails him between the eyes with an anti-tank round, or whatever - he's a martyr, and his death - an anti-reg hero killing the pro-reg leader - would in all likelihood undo any of the PR gains Cap's side made after Goliath made his ill-fated attempt to insert Clor's faux-Mjolnir where it didn't belong. Killing Tony would be the worst possible thing the anti-reg side could have done.

If they didn't kill him - Mandarin does it, or Unhappy Hogan, or Squirrel Girl finds out about Speedball and beats Tony to death, demolishing Avengers tower in the process, whatever - then, in all honesty, DC would blame the anti-reg side anyway. Whoever did it they'd lock up in 42, keep them from getting any word to the outside world, and leak some information to the effect that they'd been working for Cap. And we're in the same situation, more or less, as if it had been the anti-reg side that had killed him.

[AllisterH]

I'm certainly biased against the SHRA, but still I'm not seeing any libertarian aspects of the law. It all seems fairly authoratarian to me. Could you explain the points I'm missing?

Simple. Accountability of the hero to the public. What good is liberty for the public if they have no recourse when a hero steps out of line. Most libertarians are big supporters of watchdog groups that monitor any "group" that has a big influence on the public and let's face, heroes in the MU have a huge effect.

[ivesaidway2much]

Simple. Accountability of the hero to the public. What good is liberty for the public if they have no recourse when a hero steps out of line. Most libertarians are big supporters of watchdog groups that monitor any "group" that has a big influence on the public and let's face, heroes in the MU have a huge effect.That's only over the course of the "group" doing their chosen job, for instance, a politician or a police man. The SHRA would apply if it stood for the super hero registration act, but it doesn't. I can't think of any libertarian ideal that would agree with targetting a group of people because of what they were born as. That's strictly an authoratarian concept.

[tavella]

Simple. Accountability of the hero to the public. What good is liberty for the public if they have no recourse when a hero steps out of line. Most libertarians are big supporters of watchdog groups that monitor any "group" that has a big influence on the public and let's face, heroes in the MU have a huge effect.

Except that they *had* exactly the same accountability as any other citizen. All the same laws applied to them. The New Warriors were working for a *TV production company*. You don't think they couldn't be found to serve arrest warrants if they violated a law?

If the SHRA had strictly been about "X has a warrant out for them for assault, we can't serve it, we are doing this or that (prohibiting face masks, whatever) to ensure that we can apply the same laws equally to everyone", it would have been perfectly reasonable. Instead it became about enslaving superhumans. Luke Cage was doing *nothing* different than millions of other people at the time -- he was watching TV in his own home. He was treated differently because he was physically different from the norm. The number of people here and elsewhere that do not understand the difference in treating people differently because of what they *do* and treating them differently because of what they *are* is frightening.

For example, Cloud 9 -- the government has every right to require that she follow the same rules as anyone else doing flying. No going into FAA controlled space without a transponder, following whatever other rules apply to free-flight space, same as a hanglider or whatever. The government does not have the right to draft her and tell her kill people or we'll depower you.

[XPac]

Simple. Accountability of the hero to the public. What good is liberty for the public if they have no recourse when a hero steps out of line. Most libertarians are big supporters of watchdog groups that monitor any "group" that has a big influence on the public and let's face, heroes in the MU have a huge effect.

Truthfully there's LESS accountability now.

Because now the government is there to clean up the mess. Take Initiative isssue 1 for example. We see some young hero inadvertently kill someone... what happens? Nothing. Government covers it up, because it's bad PR for the government and Initiative. Where's the accountability there?

Read Thunderbolts. We see Venom and Bullseye killing people. Where's the accountability there? Zero. Zip. Nada. Because the government covers it up.

And I'd be willing to bet had Tony and Reed created a clone which blew a whole in the chest of the person they were trying to capture prior to the registration, there would be a hell of a lot more legal consequence than what they got in Civil War. Now they can get away with that kind of negligence (and it was negligence on Reeds part... Clor outright SAID he was going to kill them and Reed could have shut the dam thing off any time but until after the battle) because the government has got their backs.

So where's this accountability you're talking about. I'm just not seeing it.

[tavella]

I think it would be a mistake to put the Marvel agenda on the liberal/conservative scale. Ultra-liberalism leads to communism, and ultra-conservatism leads to fascism. The SHRA has elements of both. I think it's more of an authoratarian/libertarian deal.

It's neocon, and very specifically the Straussian wing of the neocon philosophy. The basis of Leo Strauss' philosophy was that the great thinkers (Aristotle, et al) wrote at two levels. The surface for the peons and lesser thinkers, and the inner meaning for the um, "illuminated." The inner meaning being often wildly different or even entirely opposite the outer meaning.

From this belief (that the true meaning of history and intellect can only be read by a small cadre of the Wise), he advocated that the Wise had both the unlimited right and the duty to rule the lesser -- and not from being merely freely and democratically elected. It's considered not only acceptable, but virtuous to lie and manipulate the masses "for their own good". And of course, the Wise shouldn't be subject to the same rules they place on other people. Their secret wisdom means they must go beyond the common morality (see above about lying being virtuous).

Sound familiar? Now, I don't find anything out of line with the idea of Stark or Reed being Straussian neocons. Stark especially, as he's been pretty consistently portrayed as the sort of person that believes that his intelligence and wealth gives him more rights than other people -- he'd portray them as a heroic sacrifice of principles to save other people, but in the end, it's all about believing you have the right to make those choices and other people don't.

It's the fact that Marvel itself is promoting this as the right and proper thing.

[ComicCollector777]

Truthfully there's LESS accountability now.

Because now the government is there to clean up the mess. Take Initiative isssue 1 for example. We see some young hero inadvertently kill someone... what happens? Nothing. Government covers it up, because it's bad PR for the government and Initiative. Where's the accountability there?

Read Thunderbolts. We see Venom and Bullseye killing people. Where's the accountability there? Zero. Zip. Nada. Because the government covers it up.

And I'd be willing to bet had Tony and Reed created a clone which blew a whole in the chest of the person they were trying to capture prior to the registration, there would be a hell of a lot more legal consequence than what they got in Civil War. Now they can get away with that kind of negligence (and it was negligence on Reeds part... Clor outright SAID he was going to kill them and Reed could have shut the dam thing off any time but until after the battle) because the government has got their backs.

So where's this accountability you're talking about. I'm just not seeing it.

Good point. Likewise, I don't see the accountability at all...instead all I'm seeing are govt. cover-ups.