Why do some people think Hulk threatened to kill everyone on Earth?

[Kevinroc]

Hulk didn't say that. He didn't say "I'm going to kill you all" or "I'll destroy this planet." He threatened to do what he did to Black Bolt. And from all indications, Black Bolt is still alive.

In fact, Hulk's entire attitude is very strange from someone that "threatened to kill everyone on Earth."

He's told other characters not to get involved. He's given them the chance to either stand down or join him. If they fight him, it's on their heads.

He ordered New York evacuated.

Is it just an oversimplification for some people to say Hulk threatened to kill everyone? Reading into something that isn't there? That they are ready to believe the worst about the Hulk in a moment's notice?

[DaeJi]

I don't think he wants to kill anyone save for the four men who exiled him. At this point in the story the Hulk isn't a monster; he's a jerk, but not a monster. That may change by the end, but for now he's on the level.

[DannyV_El_Acme]

It's not so much that the Hulk threatened the earth as much as that he IS a threat: he's a hurricane, an earthquake and a tsunami rolled into one, and with sentience and intent. Imagine it with this analogy: Hurricane Katrina telling the United States "I'm gonna f**k up New Orleans, and every other city better get out of my way or I'll f**k it up too!!"

[tjarvis]

Hulk didn't say that. He didn't say "I'm going to kill you all" or "I'll destroy this planet." He threatened to do what he did to Black Bolt. And from all indications, Black Bolt is still alive.

In fact, Hulk's entire attitude is very strange from someone that "threatened to kill everyone on Earth."

He's told other characters not to get involved. He's given them the chance to either stand down or join him. If they fight him, it's on their heads.

He ordered New York evacuated.

Is it just an oversimplification for some people to say Hulk threatened to kill everyone? Reading into something that isn't there? That they are ready to believe the worst about the Hulk in a moment's notice?

To use the Hulk's favorite verb, he smashed Black Bolt.

Then, he threatened to smash the entire planet unless he got what he wanted from the Illuminati.

That's a pretty severe threat right there. Even if he didn't kill anybody, but somehow just went around and beat up everyone severly, that would still make his actions reprehensible.

[ivesaidway2much]

Maybe the Hulk just wants to kill everyone the efficient way. Why attack people who would rather run away from you or force your way through millions of New Yorkers, when you can simply evacuate them, collect the Illuminati scum you came to crush, and then smash the "whole stinking planet" with a single blow? It's a much more intelligent use of the Hulk's resources that way.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Hulk should kill everyone on earth. Then they could do a reboot of the marvel universe.

[IamtheRock3]

Well he did threaten it.

So far he didnt PROVE to anyone what Tony did. He just showed up on Earth and said hand him over or I will kill you all

and basicly said

"I am going to be a nice guy and make you leave the Homes you live all your life while I destroy it with my grudge with iron man making everyone Homless. And if you dont leave in 24 hours...WELP the old saying goes to make and Omlet you got to BREAK some eggs"


Then you got Hulk Crew in frontlines taking over a Park with guns, and threatening the cops to solve the murder or they basicly kill


Yea he only attacking people who get in his way, but WHAT THE HECK DID HE EXPECT. Dude wrecking the city

Heck Xmen excuse not even that great one. He after Prof X for what he MIGHT of voted. Dude wasnt even n the lanet

[Superbeast]

Well he did threaten it.

So far he didnt PROVE to anyone what Tony did. He just showed up on Earth and said hand him over or I will kill you all

and basicly said

"I am going to be a nice guy and make you leave the Homes you live all your life while I destroy it with my grudge with iron man making everyone Homless. And if you dont leave in 24 hours...WELP the old saying goes to make and Omlet you got to BREAK some eggs"


Then you got Hulk Crew in frontlines taking over a Park with guns, and threatening the cops to solve the murder or they basicly kill


Yea he only attacking people who get in his way, but WHAT THE HECK DID HE EXPECT. Dude wrecking the city

Heck Xmen excuse not even that great one. He after Prof X for what he MIGHT of voted. Dude wasnt even n the lanet

He didn't know that at the time about Xavier.

He went to the Mansion and asked to see Xavier. Beast refused. Hulk's not in the mood to wait and gives him a second warning. Beast again refused. Hulk doesn't ask a third time.

All he wanted was to speak to Xavier and get his reply. Everyone else is just getting in his way and he's taking them out. If Beast had simply let Hulk ask Xavier the question face to face as he later did then a lot of mutants wouldn't be casualties right now.

[Pendaran]

It doesn't help that the Hulk said he's going to destroy New York, put it like that. It seems to have left guys like Namor and Derek Khanata fairly convinced that such is the Hulk's statements on the planet and NYC, respectively.

He ordered New York evacuated.

What he actually said was that New York city will fall, and that people have 24 hours to evacuate before it does, so that more makes it sound like "evacuate or die". Actually that makes it sound specifically like evacuate or die. And not even "you'll die because fights are gonna happen". That's more, well, the Hulk saying he's going to destroy the city, people have 24 hours to leave. Is perhaps why some people don't view that as all that kind. Or kind at all. It's more relatively less bad. It's something like out of the Magneto give a deadline playbook, i.e. supervillain dialogue.

And going by Frontline, some people don't really have anywhere else to go.

It also means that if the Hulk isn't trying his hand at standup comedy and he means to do what he says, the people who leave will have their homes and livelyhoods destroyed anyway once 24 hours are over. Which is similarly pretty low. "At least you didn't die" isn't much of a comfort to, for instance, families that can't possibly recover from such losses. And obviously the people still there, have that whole death problem facing them.

Is it just an oversimplification for some people to say Hulk threatened to kill everyone? Reading into something that isn't there? That they are ready to believe the worst about the Hulk in a moment's notice?

Is it an oversimplification to ignore the Hulk holding up some guy's mangled, bleeding body and saying that such is the fate of the world if they don't obey him?

If they fight him, it's on their heads.

He threw the first punch on someone that wouldn't get out of his way, but wouldn't fight him and was stopping others from doing so. Hercules had to stop him from smashing Amadeus Cho (which, sigh.) He's tried to take guys who haven't actually done anything to him but give an opinion to some mysterious fate that he won't especially comment on. He said in 24 hours, he's going to destroy the city of New York. If superheroes fight him, that's called being superheroes not wanting to chance that the Hulk is just telling some wierd jokes, and that the mysterious fate he's dragging people (who he hasn't provided any proof for the worst of his claims about at that) off to isn't a tea party. If the Hulk had said something originally that involved /not saying that/ more people might be inclined to care when he says "this doesn't concern you, get out of my way". Otherwise it's at best like the Punisher telling some superhero that something doesn't concern them, stay out of his way. And that's at best. It's otherwise something that united two superhero teams that were otherwise at war with each other, to oppose the Hulk.

Separate for a moment that it's the Hulk that's doing this. Some guy shows up to New York with an alien army, says he's going to destroy the city after 24 hours, shows some guy's mangled, bleeding body and says he'll do that to the entire world if not obeyed. Talks about some other guys killing millions of people without having particular proof thereof and demands they be given to him without saying what he'll then do to them. Why /wouldn't/ people get in his way? Isn't it an oversimplification to say that him telling them not to makes him come off as reasonable? Especially when once they do, in the Thing's case, he was about to kill them?

You can certainly argue that the Illuminati and others haven't been coming off well, but neither has the Hulk.

[Magneto Rocks]

Seriously? THAT's the technicality you want to get me on?

Woulds you prefer that I said he threatened to beat every single person on tghe planet into a bloody mangled satte of unconsciousness from which it's unclear if they're dead or alive?

Because really, that's your best case scenario on this one.

[hyzmarca]

It was hyperbole. He can't reasonably beat up every single person on the planet without some sort of time dilation powers. Assuming that he punches on average 1 person per second and each person goes down in a single punch, actually beating up everyone would take about 213 years.

[Kevinroc]

Seriously? THAT's the technicality you want to get me on?

Woulds you prefer that I said he threatened to beat every single person on tghe planet into a bloody mangled satte of unconsciousness from which it's unclear if they're dead or alive?

Because really, that's your best case scenario on this one.

You could just shorten that to "he threatened to beat everybody up" or just plain ol' "he threatened everybody."

But even then, he ordered New York evacuated. And he and his Warbound have given the Avengers, the Fantastic Four and the X-Men prime opportunity to back away.

It's just strange that Hulk's threatening everyone and then giving people a chance to walk away.

[Magneto Rocks]

Not particularly. He says if the Illuminati aaren't there, he'll kill/maim everyone on Earth. There's no way of spinning it, that's what he said. Whether he MEANT it is a different matter but a wholly irrelevant one. The vast majority of Earth#s citizens who saw that will believe it. CLEARLY the heroes do. There was absolutely no reason for Hulk to make it unless he wanted them to believe it, and God knows what would have happened if the Illuminati HADN'T confronted him. I mean, he's already said that new York will fall, regardless.

Not the sort of thing a "justified" ruler coming for his vengeance in four men alone says, is it though? "I will maim everyone on Earth if you don't give me what I want, and even if you do I will smash and possibly kill anyone who stands in my way." In fact, sounds...


...why, I do believe it sounds almost... like something a VILLAIn would say!:eek:

[IamtheRock3]

He didn't know that at the time about Xavier.

He went to the Mansion and asked to see Xavier. Beast refused. Hulk's not in the mood to wait and gives him a second warning. Beast again refused. Hulk doesn't ask a third time.

All he wanted was to speak to Xavier and get his reply. Everyone else is just getting in his way and he's taking them out. If Beast had simply let Hulk ask Xavier the question face to face as he later did then a lot of mutants wouldn't be casualties right now.

isnt he still attacking AFTER he gave an Answer


In fairness though If 4 men was respoble for blowing up a CITY in USA killimg millions, including the first lady and first daugter

And a country was protecting them...pretty said country would be bomb to blaze

pretty sure we have for less in the real world


That said you cant blame the heroes either for standing in the way of Hulk destroying people Home

Pretty sure it more EASY ways to take these 4 guys out

[DaeJi]

It's still unclear if the Illumnati are responable for the bomb. And didn't Strange deny any involvement?

[Lord Moon]

It was hyperbole. He can't reasonably beat up every single person on the planet without some sort of time dilation powers. Assuming that he punches on average 1 person per second and each person goes down in a single punch, actually beating up everyone would take about 213 years.

Agreed. And I'm pretty sure each person would go down in a single punch.

[Pendaran]

In fairness though If 4 men was respoble for blowing up a CITY in USA killimg millions, including the first lady and first daugter

The Hulk hasn't actually offered anything showing that said 4 men are responsible for doing that beyond "because I say so". That plus the threats, I can see people not being inclined to listen.

But even then, he ordered New York evacuated. And he and his Warbound have given the Avengers, the Fantastic Four and the X-Men prime opportunity to back away.

It's just strange that Hulk's threatening everyone and then giving people a chance to walk away.

His evacuation order is that New York would be destroyed in 24 hours and that people have that 24 hours to leave.

And again, what's reasonable about telling people to back away from getting in the way of the Hulk dragging people away to fate unknown, and to not get in the way of the Hulk's ultimatum?

Does the Hulk come off particularly well for nearly killing the Thing for deciding that letting the Hulk have free reign to do whatever, maybe a bad idea?

[ivesaidway2much]

You could just shorten that to "he threatened to beat everybody up" or just plain ol' "he threatened everybody."

But even then, he ordered New York evacuated. And he and his Warbound have given the Avengers, the Fantastic Four and the X-Men prime opportunity to back away.

It's just strange that Hulk's threatening everyone and then giving people a chance to walk away.That's not what the Hulk said though. You're making the mistake of treating the assumptions you've made about the story up to this point as fact. He held up Black Bolt's bloody, broken body and said "... or I'll do this to your whole stinking planet." I could understand how you could miss it. Because for you or I, or heck even most superhumans, to claim that we are going to literally smash a planet would be hyperbole of the highest order. But for the Hulk it's always been well within his ability to do just that. Given that, it's very easy to defend the idea that maybe he did threaten to kill everyone on Earth. It's definitely not 100% certain that he didn't.

[IamtheRock3]

Of course, the Hulk hasn't actually offered anything showing that said 4 men are responsible for doing that beyond "because I say so". That plus the threats, I can see people not being inclined to listen.



I'm sure you meant to say "he said that New York would be destroyed in 24 hours and that people have that 24 hours to leave".

And again, what's reasonable about telling people to back away from getting in the way of the Hulk dragging people away to fate unknown, and to not get in the way of the Hulk's ultimatum?

Does the Hulk come off particularly well for nearly killing the Thing for deciding that letting the Hulk have free reign to do whatever, maybe a bad idea?

didnt he show the the tape of thier speech launching him into space. An again none of them DENY doing it. Iron man pretty much admit it. Strange pretty much admits they probally responbill for te explosion

Iron man basicy said TO THE WORLD it was his doing but he did for the greater good however. And you want to take it ut on someone take it out on him

"Ok launch him into space but DIDNT blow up anything"

This was a speech that was on TV.Millons heard it. That pretty good evidence right there

And really what could Hulk possibly say other then that to convine them

We would try to PROVE the ecaping terriost responbill when we pretty much knew they were

of course we wouldnt if a terriost blew up a city. We would want vengenge and we want it quickly

[Pendaran]

An again none of them DENY doing it. Iron man pretty much admit it. Strange pretty much admits they probally responbill for te explosion

Strange actually seemed to come off saying that he didn't do any killing, he just feels guilt overall for what happened to the Hulk.

You'd think over something as big as this, people would acknowledge it, if they did it, even just in their private conversations to each other, where no one else can listen. But especially the general reaction of the heroes is not really buying that they did that bit.

And really what could Hulk possibly say other then that to convine them

A tape of them actually taking credit for doing so? Something involving tangible evidence? Something more than "They did it!"?

From the comics, lots of people believe the shooting into space part, and the Illuminati have certainly admitted to that. They haven't admitted to anything about the killing, and most of the people around them don't seem to believe that they had a role in that.

The problem of the Hulk's particular delivery for his claims, is they don't exactly make him come off as all that sound a voice while making them.

[bd2999]

He did in a way. He said leave NY and give me Richards, Stark, STrange and so on or he would do this to the entire world. That sounds like a pretty big threat and most people on Earth cannot take a beating that would put BB down.

[Magneto Rocks]

Well of COURSE the Hulk didn't have any more proof, since, y'know, you can't prove what didn't happen.

One can't BLAME them for being sceptical, especially when we as readers know their scepticism is most likely justified. Iamtherock3, you're saying well, you don't need to prove t if you pretty much know who did it. But the Hulk can't prove it even to himself. He THINKS he knows he did it but it's looking more and more likely that he's wrong.

I mean, if America, say, blamed the wrong country for a disaster and STORMED in, all guns blazing, you really think that would provoke contro-


....Wait.

Well, to be fair, I'm pretty sure Hulk didn't want oil.Joke, joke Hulkfans.

Anyway, Kevinrocs, as a wise poster once said to me, pick your battles. Even a lot of people with pro-Hulk sympathies are pointing out that's pretty much what Hulk did, to some degree or another. There are matters where we can dispute, but just as there are some matters where I don't bother arguing (Theoretically, I think I could put together an elaborate case for how the Illuminati did not in fact send Hulk into space at all. :p) this is really something it's better for you to accept. You can still support the Hulk if you accept this, you can't win this one.

[Pendaran]

I mean, if America, say, blamed the wrong country for a disaster and STORMED in, all guns blazing, you really think that would provoke contro-


....Wait.

Well, to be fair, I'm pretty sure Hulk didn't want oil.

I'd really like to think Marvel comics is not trying to draw that analogy.

[ivesaidway2much]

From the comics, lots of people believe the shooting into space part, and the Illuminati have certainly admitted to that. They haven't admitted to anything about the killing, and most of the people around them don't seem to believe that they had a role in that.Where are you getting the other "heroes" general reaction from? The only ones I've seen specifically comment on the bombing were She-hulk, Iron Fist, and the Invisible Woman. Iron Fist thought the Illuminati did bomb the planet. She-hulk suggested putting them on trial, if the Hulk's charges were true. And Sue may have defended Reed, but that was cut off mid-sentence so it's not 100% clear. Did I miss something?

[IamtheRock3]

Strange actually seemed to come off saying that he didn't do any killing, he just feels guilt overall for what happened to the Hulk.

You'd think over something as big as this, people would acknowledge it, if they did it, even just in their private conversations to each other, where no one else can listen. But especially the general reaction of the heroes is not really buying that they did that bit.



A tape of them actually taking credit for doing so? Something involving tangible evidence? Something more than "They did it!"?

From the comics, lots of people believe the shooting into space part, and the Illuminati have certainly admitted to that. They haven't admitted to anything about the killing, and most of the people around them don't seem to believe that they had a role in that.

The problem of the Hulk's particular delivery for his claims, is they don't exactly make him come off as all that sound a voice while making them.

in Ghost rider

Strange said ghos rider left cause he only protect innocent

What else would be be talking about

You think something big as THIS they would DENY It was welll

If someone said

IAMTHEROCK IS RESPONBILLY FOR MILLIONS OF DEATHS

I be hey man

"No i am not go f yourself"



To me Iron man basicly admited his responbillity in Hulk claim during his speech. Why wouldnt he DENY it

It not just brought up as if he did IT, but not brought as if he DIDNT for people to claim he not responble

Nobody said anything accept for Black panther and storm

Nobody said

"MAN you beleave the BS Hulk was saying about stark killing those people"

as well as they didnt say

"Woe STARK killed all those people"


neither been mention. it SHOULD but didnt. Guess there to busy fighting

[Pendaran]

Where are you getting the other "heroes" general reaction from? The only ones I've seen specifically comment on the bombing were She-hulk, Iron Fist, and the Invisible Woman. Iron Fist thought the Illuminati did bomb the planet. She-hulk suggested putting them on trial, if the Hulk's charges were true. And Sue may have defended Reed, but that was cut off mid-sentence so it's not 100% clear. Did I miss something?


From that people are physically defending these guys? I can't really wrap my head around the two Avengers teams at war with each other coming together to fight the Hulk, or the FF doing so if they thought Reed, Tony and Strange killed millions of people.

[Magneto Rocks]

I'd really like to think Marvel comics is not trying to draw that analogy.

I think we all do, Hulk may be villainous in this story but even he doesn't deserve THAT! ;)

[Pendaran]

in Ghost rider

Strange said ghos rider left cause he only protect innocent

Strange said Ghost Rider left because he only avenges the innocent, protection and revenge are kinda different.

Beyond that, this once again gets into that Ghost Rider killed hundreds of innocent people in the issue right before, then said any cost is worth his vengeance, so I don't really put much stock in that sequence.

neither been mention. it SHOULD but didnt. Guess there to busy fighting

If neither have been mentioned, then where did anyone admit to anything?

[IamtheRock3]

Well of COURSE the Hulk didn't have any more proof, since, y'know, you can't prove what didn't happen.

One can't BLAME them for being sceptical, especially when we as readers know their scepticism is most likely justified. Iamtherock3, you're saying well, you don't need to prove t if you pretty much know who did it. But the Hulk can't prove it even to himself. He THINKS he knows he did it but it's looking more and more likely that he's wrong.

I mean, if America, say, blamed the wrong country for a disaster and STORMED in, all guns blazing, you really think that would provoke contro-


....Wait.

Well, to be fair, I'm pretty sure Hulk didn't want oil.Joke, joke Hulkfans.

Anyway, Kevinrocs, as a wise poster once said to me, pick your battles. Even a lot of people with pro-Hulk sympathies are pointing out that's pretty much what Hulk did, to some degree or another. There are matters where we can dispute, but just as there are some matters where I don't bother arguing (Theoretically, I think I could put together an elaborate case for how the Illuminati did not in fact send Hulk into space at all. :p) this is really something it's better for you to accept. You can still support the Hulk if you accept this, you can't win this one.


Not saying the other dont have the rigt to be skeptical

they have every right to stop Hulks rampage just putting stuff into perspective


They did BLOW up his city. That pretty clear act of war. So he want to bring them to justice right now the heroes protecting the people who blew up thier city

and again Stark basicly said

"YEA I DID IT"

What else do the guy need. No one else will bring these 4 to trial...certianly didn give HIM a trial. As leader of his world he bringing them to justice

now that NOT to say what he did is right. Man actig like a maniac

just saying he got a right to want these guys head and bring them to justice.

[ivesaidway2much]

From that people are physically defending these guys? I can't really wrap my head around the two Avengers teams at war with each other coming together to fight the Hulk, or the FF doing so if they thought Reed, Tony and Strange killed millions of people.Probably because the guy that's asking for them to be handed over has anger management issues, is medically insane, and is leading an alien invasion. Even if they believe him, like Iron Fist does, the Hulk poses a much greater immediate threat.

[IamtheRock3]

From that people are physically defending these guys? I can't really wrap my head around the two Avengers teams at war with each other coming together to fight the Hulk, or the FF doing so if they thought Reed, Tony and Strange killed millions of people.

Cause Hulk wrecking the city mking millions homless

That what makes him the bad guy in this situton. And it not like Stark MEANT to do it

Why else Would She Hulk say

"NOT like this, we put them on trial"

if he thinks Stark innocent, of killing millions, trial for what

[Pendaran]

Why else Would She Hulk say

"NOT like this, we put them on trial"

Because one uses trials to arbitrate whether or not a charge someone brings against someone is valid or not?

And it not like Stark MEANT to do it

I'm going to ask as a question: Considering the comics themselves look like they're trying to keep vague who was actually responsible for what while they, among other things, continue to do stuff like cast Miek in an increasingly sinister light, can you show me where Reed or anyone said that they did it?

[The White-Spider]

Not particularly. He says if the Illuminati aaren't there, he'll kill/maim everyone on Earth. There's no way of spinning it, that's what he said. Whether he MEANT it is a different matter but a wholly irrelevant one. The vast majority of Earth#s citizens who saw that will believe it. CLEARLY the heroes do. There was absolutely no reason for Hulk to make it unless he wanted them to believe it, and God knows what would have happened if the Illuminati HADN'T confronted him. I mean, he's already said that new York will fall, regardless.

First of all drop maim. There's nothing in the story thus far that shows Black Bolt, Reed or Tony to be permanently injured, crippled, or having lost the use of a bodily function in the long term.

Second, the Hulk has fought 3 of 4 of the men he actually hates and has not killed any of them. Are you suggesting he'll do worse to the civilian masses [if the Illuminati don't arrive] than he's done to his enemies when they're engaged in conflict/war? Not logical.

A city "falls" when it comes under the control of a foreign power. Here's a reference point of real world usage:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Baghdad

The city has already fallen without a single innocent killed.

Equating "Or I'll do this" with maiming and killing is a conjectural leap that's not supported by anything stating BB is dead or permanently injured, and the actions of the Hulk towards his targets demonstrate that he would not do worse to the people on the street than he's done to enemies in an outright "war."

Hulk's nearly killing Ben Grimm is based on Hiroim's impression he was about to die and that he should die well. Funny that Sue, Reed, Storm, Panther, et. al. didn't so much as shout "Ben!", if it was obvious to them, people who have known him for years, that he was about to die.

So, the opinion of an alien who never saw the Thing in person before in his life, versus not one single indication from any of his closest friends and allies that he was about to die. Actually, it would be an utter shame if his friends were sitting by so passively if they believed he was about to receive a death blow.

However, feel free to try to get as much mileage out of Hiroim's silent prayer as you can.

[IamtheRock3]

Because one uses trials to arbitrate whether or not a charge someone brings against someone is valid or not?

Actully to put someoe on trial you got to have some evidece. You cant grabbed random people for no reason. Normal if the LAW people you on trial they least BELEAVE you did it


it the defense Job to prove you wrong. But is District Attorney charge someone it cause they think the person did it.

[IamtheRock3]

should say it the defense Job to show they cant PROVE your guilty

sense the burden of proof on the prosecution

but you get my meaning

[Kevinroc]

That's not what the Hulk said though. You're making the mistake of treating the assumptions you've made about the story up to this point as fact. He held up Black Bolt's bloody, broken body and said "... or I'll do this to your whole stinking planet." I could understand how you could miss it. Because for you or I, or heck even most superhumans, to claim that we are going to literally smash a planet would be hyperbole of the highest order. But for the Hulk it's always been well within his ability to do just that. Given that, it's very easy to defend the idea that maybe he did threaten to kill everyone on Earth. It's definitely not 100% certain that he didn't.

If Hulk were going to do that, why bother ordering the evacuation of Manhattan? It's very strange to argue that Hulk is threatening kill everyone on Earth after we see him telling people to get out of New York so they do not get killed in whatever carnage is unleashed.

[Pendaran]

should say it the defense Job to show they cant PROVE your guilty

sense the burden of proof on the prosecution

but you get my meaning

No, not really. She Hulk herself is a defense attorney, if you're going to get technical about it.

None of the others so far that have gone at the Hulk have especially pondered the idea of having to put these guys on trial, at that.

Sue even seemed to basically start pleading with the Hulk that Reed wouldn't do something like this.

[Pendaran]

If Hulk were going to do that, why bother ordering the evacuation of Manhattan? It's very strange to argue that Hulk is threatening kill everyone on Earth after we see him telling people to get out of New York so they do not get killed in whatever carnage is unleashed.

Except that that's not what he said.

And honestly, why does Magneto bother to first give the ultimatums he does? Or anyone that trucks in ultimatums in the first place?

Giving people a chance to first obey you, is nothing more than giving people a chance to first obey you.

[Kevinroc]

First of all drop maim. There's nothing in the story thus far that shows Black Bolt, Reed or Tony to be permanently injured, crippled, or having lost the use of a bodily function in the long term.

Second, the Hulk has fought 3 of 4 of the men he actually hates and has not killed any of them. Are you suggesting he'll do worse to the civilian masses [if the Illuminati don't arrive] than he's done to his enemies when they're engaged in conflict/war? Not logical.

A city "falls" when it comes under the control of a foreign power. Here's a reference point of real world usage:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Baghdad

The city has already fallen without a single innocent killed.

Equating "Or I'll do this" with maiming and killing is a conjectural leap that's not supported by anything stating BB is dead or permanently injured, and the actions of the Hulk towards his targets demonstrates that he would not do worse to the people on the street than he's done to enemies in an outright "war."

Hulk's nearly killing Ben Grimm is based on Hiroim's impression he was about to die and that he should die well. Funny that Sue, Reed, Storm, Panther, et. al. didn't so much as shout "Ben!", if it was obvious to them, people who have known him for years, that he was about to die.

So, the opinion of an alien who never saw the Thing in person before in his life, versus not one single indication from any of his closest friends and allies that he was about to die. Actually, it would be an utter shame if his friends were sitting by so passively if they believed he was about to receive a death blow.

However, feel free to try to get as much mileage out of Hiroim's silent prayer as you can.

I always thought Hulk's "city will fall" comment wasn't him literally saying he was going to completely destroy New York.

Despite peoples, shall we say, negative opinions of Frontline, we see Hulk pretty much taking control of New York and using it as a refuge for the people of Sakaar. He's even ordered his people not to attack the natives unless they are attacked first.

For a hostile alien invasion, Hulk's being surprisingly nice about the whole thing.

[IamtheRock3]

No, not really. She Hulk herself is a defense attorney, if you're going to get technical about it.

None of the others so far that have gone at the Hulk have especially pondered the idea of having to put these guys on trial, at that.

Sue even seemed to basically start pleading with the Hulk that Reed wouldn't do something like this.

She has prosecutd people before. or least help sue them.

When did she plead that. She Hulk wouldnt mention a trial if it wasnt least a possibillity Stark guilty

Black panther and storm blame reed for this mess


Just because they not cool With Hulk insane plan to wreck a city to draw Reed and co out, doesnt mean they think the illumantie innocent

And stark basicly again ADMTED it on natioal televison


Again lets put it in perspective

Yea a lot didnt mention they think they did it

but a lot didnt mention they think they didnt

If someone was accusing your freind of being a cause of millions of deaths and you thought he was innocent, wouldnt you be OUTRAGe

wouldnt you be screaming

"HE NEVER DO THAT"

so far NOTHING

[CMBMOOL]

Where are you getting the other "heroes" general reaction from? The only ones I've seen specifically comment on the bombing were She-hulk, Iron Fist, and the Invisible Woman. Iron Fist thought the Illuminati did bomb the planet. She-hulk suggested putting them on trial, if the Hulk's charges were true. And Sue may have defended Reed, but that was cut off mid-sentence so it's not 100% clear. Did I miss something?

You forgot the Black Panther as he blames the Illuminati for place this threat upon the entire world. :(

[DaeJi]

You forgot the Black Panther as he blames the Illuminati for place this threat upon the entire world. :(

Like he would do any different. Still, he's right in a sense; remember we've yet to get the whole picture.

[Magneto Rocks]

You forgot the Black Panther as he blames the Illuminati for place this threat upon the entire world. :(

And you oget at he still regards it as a threat towards the entire world and doesn't show the merest hint of wanting to help Hulk.

In fact, of EVERYONE on Earth, we have not seen a SINGLE hero step forward to help him without being manipulated. That doesn't mean ANYTHING, according to some folk here?

[Kevinroc]

And you oget at he still regards it as a threat towards the entire world and doesn't show the merest hint of wanting to help Hulk.

In fact, of EVERYONE on Earth, we have not seen a SINGLE hero step forward to help him without being manipulated. That doesn't mean ANYTHING, according to some folk here?

Even though characters like Sue Richards and Black Panther have made it clear that Reed did something he shouldn't have?

They want Hulk to stop because they're afraid he's going to kill the Illuminati (Sue said as much). Sue pleaded with Hulk to stop.

I can ask you the exact same question. Does the fact that characters like Sue, Iron Fist and Panther have shown disapproval of the way the Illuminati handled the Hulk situation mean nothing to you?

[CMBMOOL]

Hulk didn't say that. He didn't say "I'm going to kill you all" or "I'll destroy this planet." He threatened to do what he did to Black Bolt. And from all indications, Black Bolt is still alive.

In fact, Hulk's entire attitude is very strange from someone that "threatened to kill everyone on Earth."

He's told other characters not to get involved. He's given them the chance to either stand down or join him. If they fight him, it's on their heads.

He ordered New York evacuated.

Is it just an oversimplification for some people to say Hulk threatened to kill everyone? Reading into something that isn't there? That they are ready to believe the worst about the Hulk in a moment's notice?

Well It like the Hulk often says, they are Puny Humans who are scared of what he will do to their world.

I think that he is going to show the Illuminati what has happen to him during his exile in issue #4.

I feel that there are some heroes who would try to plea with the Hulk and reason with him with a different solution then what he is currently doing. I believe that deep down he doesn't want this fighting with the other heroes. Sure he KNOWS that they will try to stop him, but that is where they will lose. Because this is a different Hulk than before and this time he has friends who are willing to back him up in this fight.

I do believe that when it all over I think that the heroes are coming out of this in a changed way. A way not to misjudge the Hulk nor to misjudge the way he and Bruce funtions. :(

[CMBMOOL]

Well I just found out the information of Iron Man #20 and while I not going to say anything to spoil the issue, let just say Tony left Dugan into a Bad position. :(

[Peeps]

Like he would do any different. Still, he's right in a sense; remember we've yet to get the whole picture.

actually he did do different he walked out upon their first get together stating what they were doing was completely wrong

[DaeJi]

actually he did do different he walked out upon their first get together stating what they were doing was completely wrong

It easy to judge when you don't have to make the decision. Every hero is rightly dissapointed with the Illumnati, but when called to make to decide what to do about the Hulk I'm willing to bet a good number of them would make the same choice, T'Challa included. Really, no one had to help them. Reed and co. dug this hole and draged the whole world into with them. I don't think the Hulk wants to kill anyone who wasn't involved with his exile and who he believes set the bomb. For now, the world is safe from the Hulk.

[ComicCollector777]

Yeah, I keep pointing out nowhere in this WWH arc has the Hulk stated that he's going to KILL everyone and RULE the earth and I have no idea where people get that idea. Here's are some of thoughts:

1. Accountability, Even if the shuttle was not rigged to explode, Tony and company can still be accountable for poor workmanship on the shuttle.

Like in real life, when engineers and builders get sued for not building an equipment proper. Surely, the Hulk smashed the shuttle a couple of times but if anyone is going to build a shuttle and put the Hulk in it, you have to make sure the shuttle is durable for a massive crash landing.

I don't even have to bring up the fact that no trial was ever held for the Hulk before he was shot into space. The worse thing was he was in initially space as an act of redemption and he was betrayed.

2. The Hulk threatens the world. That's what normally countries like the US and UK do by imposing threats (such as economic sanctions) on countries that hides their enemies.

In fact, the Hulk gave Tony & company 24 hours to surrender before he starts smashing. Sounds fair to me.

Sure a couple of heroes got rough-up but heck, it was a much better deal than the Hulk got - at least She-Hulk and company had repeated warnings.

3. Invading NY. The explosion on Sakkar, yeah we don't know who did it and if it was an accident but what happened to it, is an act of war. So the Hulk as King has to do something about it.

4. Killing anyone. So far, non of the superheroes have died yet. In fact, I can't help but notice the restraint the Hulk has displayed. For example, against the X-men, after bending Peter's arms he told the former to retreat. Only thing the Hulk seems to have lost it was against the Thing and I don't blame him i.e. he just got off with a brawl against Ironman, the Avengers and blasted by BOTH Storm and the Torch.

Oh yeah, the Hulk is probably going to lose WWH but IMO he's actions are justified.

The Ghost Rider vs Hulk fight was very much looked forward to not because of the all-out brawl but GR despite being so extreme on "right or wrong" was the barometer if the Hulk was justified in his action was is - yes. The Hulk was justified in his actions for all those lives lost on Saakar.

[CaptainCanada]

And stark basicly again ADMTED it on natioal televison

No, he admitted they sent the Hulk away. None of the Illuminati has ever denied doing that; and none of them have admitted being responsible for the explosion.

Like in real life, when engineers and builders get sued for not building an equipment proper. Surely, the Hulk smashed the shuttle a couple of times but if anyone is going to build a shuttle and put the Hulk in it, you have to make sure the shuttle is durable for a massive crash landing.
The builders are not responsible for damage inflicted by the occupant.

In fact, the Hulk gave Tony & company 24 hours to surrender before he starts smashing. Sounds fair to me.
How is it fair to threaten to kill innocent people unless people surrender to your dubious brand of justice?

3. Invading NY. The explosion on Sakkar, yeah we don't know who did it and if it was an accident but what happened to it, is an act of war. So the Hulk as King has to do something about it.
What? It's only an act of war if it the Illuminati did it, and he has no proof of that. And he "has to do something" is a silly justification, if what he does has no relation to what actually happened. George Bush invaded Iraq on the pretext of 9/11 on the premise of "doing something."

4. Killing anyone. So far, non of the superheroes have died yet. In fact, I can't help but notice the restraint the Hulk has displayed. For example, against the X-men, after bending Peter's arms he told the former to retreat. Only thing the Hulk seems to have lost it was against the Thing and I don't blame him i.e. he just got off with a brawl against Ironman, the Avengers and blasted by BOTH Storm and the Torch.
So, he did try to kill the Thing, but it's not his fault, because he picked a bunch of other fights previously (all of which he won).

[IamtheRock3]

wount say he completly innocent though

in frontlines his people is running rough shot telling the cops solve this crime or we KILL YOU

And was about to turn CHO into paste

[CaptainCanada]

If Hulk were going to do that, why bother ordering the evacuation of Manhattan? It's very strange to argue that Hulk is threatening kill everyone on Earth after we see him telling people to get out of New York so they do not get killed in whatever carnage is unleashed.
No, he threatens to kill/maim everyone if the other Illuminati don't surrender. He tells everyone to leave the city in case they do show up, but if they don't, then he's kill/maim innocents until the Illuminati try to stop him.
First of all drop maim. There's nothing in the story thus far that shows Black Bolt, Reed or Tony to be permanently injured, crippled, or having lost the use of a bodily function in the long term.
Minor distinction in terminology. He savagely beat Black Bolt to within an inch of his life, and he's threatening to do the same to everyone else. Regardless of whether or not Black Bolt recovers from his initial injuries, he's still threatening to inflict massive damage to the civilian population (and no civilian could take what the Hulk dished out to Black Bolt).

Second, the Hulk has fought 3 of 4 of the men he actually hates and has not killed any of them. Are you suggesting he'll do worse to the civilian masses [if the Illuminati don't arrive] than he's done to his enemies when they're engaged in conflict/war? Not logical.
It doesn't matter whether it's logical, it's what he threatened to do. He said that if the Illuminati didn't show up, he would savagely beat up everyone (what else would Black Bolt's savagely beat-up body be meant to imply?).

A city "falls" when it comes under the control of a foreign power. Here's a reference point of real world usage:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Baghdad

The city has already fallen without a single innocent killed.

Equating "Or I'll do this" with maiming and killing is a conjectural leap that's not supported by anything stating BB is dead or permanently injured, and the actions of the Hulk towards his targets demonstrate that he would not do worse to the people on the street than he's done to enemies in an outright "war."

Innocents are not dead only because the Illuminati showed up. If they hadn't, he presumably would have carried out his threat.

[ComicCollector777]

The builders are not responsible for damage inflicted by the occupant.



Its just not buildings but bridges and equipment - I suggest you do some research on some legal cases. Its like not performing your work with "due care and diligence".



How is it fair to threaten to kill innocent people unless people surrender to your dubious brand of justice?



Why not? That's what first world countries and US and UK do to other countries - make threats to get things done. For example imposing economic sanctions is good as killing people via hardships. Do you follow the news? XD

Dubious brand of justice? In the real world, if the winning state/nation gets to trial the captives based on their own laws. Tony & company have at least a chance of a trial...something that the Hulk didn't have prior to his exile.



What? It's only an act of war if it the Illuminati did it, and he has no proof of that. And he "has to do something" is a silly justification, if what he does has no relation to what actually happened. George Bush invaded Iraq on the pretext of 9/11 on the premise of "doing something."

So, he did try to kill the Thing, but it's not his fault, because he picked a bunch of other fights previously (all of which he won).



Dude, its not just the explosion of the shuttle but his exile. The Hulk was never given a trial and was simply blasted into space while ironically helping the US in a space mission. Did you follow the Hulk stories from the get-go?

Its ironic you brought up Bush because some readers are actually finding Ironman & company are so "Bush-like" in the comics world. The Hulk's story about invading the world is all about the Tony and company "playing God" and "screwing up".

[CaptainCanada]

For example imposing economic sanctions is good as killing people via hardships.
No, it's not. Trade between nations is a voluntary action, and certainly not the same thing as "if you don't do what I say, I'll come to your house and beat you up".

Tony & company have at least a chance of a trial...
Where has the Hulk suggested that? Not to mention that he hasn't actually proven anything, or attempted extradition procedures, which is what you're supposed to do, if we're talking about "real law."

Dude, its not just the explosion of the shuttle but his exile. The Hulk was never given a trial and was simply blasted into space while ironically helping the US in a space mission. Did you follow the Hulk stories from the get-go?
I know the story. And if this is just the exile, that's not even remotely close to justification for declaring war on an entire planet unless four guys come forward.

Its ironic you brought up Bush because some readers are actually finding Ironman & company are so "Bush-like" in the comics world. The Hulk's story about invading the world is all about the Tony and company "playing God" and "screwing up".
I'm aware of the comparisons, which, in this case, also apply to the Hulk.

[ComicCollector777]

No, it's not. Trade between nations is a voluntary action, and certainly not the same thing as "if you don't do what I say, I'll come to your house and beat you up".


No offense dude but what are you smoke?! Are you saying that the accepting economic sanctions is VOLUNTARY?!?!The example I'm giving is NOT some PETTY squabble between US and China! XD

Ok, maybe you DON'T understand the full term of economic sanctions...what about economic aid then? If a country refuses to comply then countries like US and UK will cut off economic aid. Like what the US and other countries is doing happening to North Korea. Whatever the Hulk is doing - its the same as what the US and UK are doing.

Also what the Hulk is doing, is similar to what the US did to Afghanistan after 9/11 - you don't want to hand over the people we want, fine - we're just come over and TAKE them.

Sure there's no PROOF that Tony & company rigged the shuttle that's why the Hulk is taking them alive to probably trial and question them.

That's definitely a better deal than simply blasting the Hulk into space without a trial.



Where has the Hulk suggested that? Not to mention that he hasn't actually proven anything, or attempted extradition procedures, which is what you're supposed to do, if we're talking about "real law."


And when has the Hulk suggested that he WASN'T going to put them on trial? The thing is most readers tend to focus on earth's laws but what about the laws of other worlds and its affairs?

That's what Nova pointed out to Tony in his series...while earth "mightiest heros were having a schoolyard brawl, the rest of the universe was in chaos due to the events in Annihilation.

And Annihilation started because its ruler mentioned that the negative zone was shrinking...its implied that CW was responsible - after all, Tony and company has been using the negative zone as prisons. Of course, I don't know if that has been made official.

I suggest you go read what the writer Pax suggested the Hulk could do i.e. present his case to the UN to get Tony & company but he couldn't run the risk of Tony & company further opportunity and time to plot.


I know the story. And if this is just the exile, that's not even remotely close to justification for declaring war on an entire planet unless four guys come forward.


Seriously go read WWH #1 again - the Hulk ONLY gave the world a warning and in no way declare war YET. His message was "handover Tony & Co. or else.

And I think your tune will be different if you were in the Hulk's shoes. Imagine believing that your friends approach you offering you a shot of redemption and then finding yourself betrayed and no trial was conducted for your exile.


I'm aware of the comparisons, which, in this case, also apply to the Hulk.

Actually the using of the Hulk is more appropriate of one of Bush's decisions backfiring on him more than anything else - but let's not go into that area.

Sure the Hulk's going to lose WWH but I think he has shown restraint in his actions so far.

[Pendaran]

its implied that CW was responsible - after all, Tony and company has been using the negative zone as prisons.

Not touching anything else here, but where has that been implied? Among other things Annihilus was revealed to ultimately want to destroy both the Negative Zone and the mainstream universe so that Annihilus could be the only being in and ruling over the void that remained afterwards, Moondragon commenting that the entire Annihilation War was a sham to cover that after reading his mind.

Life has been intruding on the Negative Zone and vice versa since the 60s.

[IamtheRock3]

Hulk has a much proof as Israel had when the bomb hezbal

Where they didnt have hard proof but people basicly know the deal that they had the prisoners

[The White-Spider]

Hulk has a much proof as Israel had when the bomb hezbal

Where they didnt have hard proof but people basicly know the deal that they had the prisoners

I really, really do not like it when real world political arguments become involved in comic/similar discussions, but I thought I would point out that Hezbollah never denied their involvement in the rocket attacks and following kidnapping. They even had a name for the planned operation well in advance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zar%27it-Shtula_incident

[ComicCollector777]

Not touching anything else here, but where has that been implied? Among other things Annihilus was revealed to ultimately want to destroy both the Negative Zone and the mainstream universe so that Annihilus could be the only being in and ruling over the void that remained afterwards, Moondragon commenting that the entire Annihilation War was a sham to cover that after reading his mind.

Life has been intruding on the Negative Zone and vice versa since the 60s.

Implied dude, implied. If I remembered correctly it was around the same time when Annihilus revealed that the Negative Zone was "shrinking" because the 616 universe was expanding. It was revealed that Tony and Reed were using the Negative Zone as prisons - that's why I mentioned unless it was made official. I still recall from various boards because the excitement that Annihilation could tie-in with CW of sorts.

Ultimately, it was revealed (even to Thanos) that Annihilus only wanted to use the be the sole survivor of sorts - thats why Thanos even turned against him.

Hulk has a much proof as Israel had when the bomb hezbal

Where they didnt have hard proof but people basicly know the deal that they had the prisoners

True that's why if you READ all my posts carefully, I've never jumped to the conclusion that it was Tony and company who rigged the shuttle to explode.

That's why I say Tony and company had a better deal than the Hulk because at least they get a chance to give an account for themselves. Unlike the Hulk who was blasted into space without a trial and being in space initially to redeem himself.

But its not just the shuttle explosion that Tony and company that they should be held accountable for - its because they have played God and screwed things up.

This can be seen via the following characters' speeches:

i) Rick Jones - Tony and Reed screwed things up;
ii) Professor X - Played God and surrendered
iii) Black Panther - unfortunately Reed made it the world's fight

That's why Marvel mentioned that WWH is a like probably the final arc of sorts to CW. Its a big decision that Tony and company screwed up and its ayback them.

Will the Hulk lose? Definitely because like Captain's team in CW if the Hulk wins...Marvel won't be able to sell more EXCITING stories! XD However its nice to see Tony & company get smacked around for their self-righteousness.

[Magneto Rocks]

I keep hearing people talk about how CLEARLY Hulk will give trials. And they'll be totally fair, since he has so many impartial judges and whatnot.

Then you won't have any objections when the Illuminati all get sentences of, let's see, probably minimum security for a maximum of five years, for the exile? And absolutely nothing for the bomb since there is no proof. Hell, Doctor Strange could probably cast a spell to PROVE beyond doubt that they DIDN'T do it.

[Quinch]

I keep hearing people talk about how CLEARLY Hulk will give trials. And they'll be totally fair, since he has so many impartial judges and whatnot. [quote]

Sakaar law. *Shrugs* matters not if it's disimilar to the USA's law.

[QUOTE=Magneto Rocks;5162785]
And absolutely nothing for the bomb since there is no proof.
You really really think that WWH will not do a big reveal about the bomb?
No really?

[ComicCollector777]

I keep hearing people talk about how CLEARLY Hulk will give trials. And they'll be totally fair, since he has so many impartial judges and whatnot.

Then you won't have any objections when the Illuminati all get sentences of, let's see, probably minimum security for a maximum of five years, for the exile? And absolutely nothing for the bomb since there is no proof. Hell, Doctor Strange could probably cast a spell to PROVE beyond doubt that they DIDN'T do it.

I get your point but it should be noted that the trial will be based on the laws of Sakaar (or whatever the planet is spelt as). Its like in real life where the winning nation/state gets to put the captives on trial based on the winning nation's laws.

If I recall correctly, the laws of Sakkar involve combat of sorts or something like that. Its NOT like US laws or anything....but hey, at least Tony and company still have a trial of sorts.

With regards to the the bomb, yes I agree with you, it could be anyone. It could be one of the the Hulk's teammates like Miek or the Brood - I will surprised if it was her because one of the touching moments in the Planet Hulk run was as the planet was being destroyed, the Brood was actually comforting and saving a kid...but you never know.

But then again, the Hulk is probably cheesed off at his exile also.

[Hulk Strongest One]

It was hyperbole. He can't reasonably beat up every single person on the planet without some sort of time dilation powers. Assuming that he punches on average 1 person per second and each person goes down in a single punch, actually beating up everyone would take about 213 years.

Even that would be insufficient as there are more than 1 person born every second. Hence he'd be like a plague, but humanity would survive, even if the Hulk kept it up forever.

Hard to believe but true. And there'd be any number of ring-outs of Hulk, eventually, presuming humanity didn't get tired of him and hit him with some larger nukes. "If everyone within a hundred miles is gonna die anyway..."

Drop him on the uninhabited planet they were planning on originally, then guys like Reed and Strange take turns guarding him so nobody comes near that world.

[The White-Spider]

No, he threatens to kill/maim everyone if the other Illuminati don't surrender. He tells everyone to leave the city in case they do show up, but if they don't, then he's kill/maim innocents until the Illuminati try to stop him.

Minor distinction in terminology. He savagely beat Black Bolt to within an inch of his life, and he's threatening to do the same to everyone else. Regardless of whether or not Black Bolt recovers from his initial injuries, he's still threatening to inflict massive damage to the civilian population (and no civilian could take what the Hulk dished out to Black Bolt).


Minor distinction? There is an entire thread about Black Bolt's power and many arguing that Hulk shouldn't have won that fight. What Hulk did to Black Bolt was in proportion to a 300 pound quarterback beating up a 250 pound quarterback -- if you wish the be technical on the matter. Black Bolt is no more disabled by the Hulk fight than Wolverine was in his fight with the Hulk. He may even be better off. "Maiming" is just a fall back term for the pro-initiative because the "killing" argument has been refuted.

Second, you are the only one inferring that Hulk didn't make a threat. The entire point is that he didn't threaten to kill or maim all life on the planet. Not that he didn't make any type of threat at all. The "maiming" and "killing" are pro-initative exaggerations that're being called out as such.


Innocents are not dead only because the Illuminati showed up. If they hadn't, he presumably would have carried out his threat.

For all we know the Hulk could have rampaged, destroying buildings, thus "smashing their planet the way he smashed Black Bolt." It's your choice to see it as maiming and killing when no maiming or killing were involved in his example what so ever. It's fine if you prefer to view it from that end of the spectrum, but it's conjecture due to the fact that no such thing is explicit in WWH.

[The White-Spider]

He savagely beat Black Bolt to within an inch of his life.


This is speculation. Black Bolt didn't appear to be worse off than Captain America after his beating at the hands of Iron-Man during the first battle of Civil War.

Had Stark beaten Captain America "to within an inch of his life?" If your answer is yes, then Tony seems willing to do far worse than Hulk over far less.

Further, there is an enormous difference in power and endurance between IM and Cap, whereas there is a much, much smaller gap between the power of Black Bolt and the Hulk.

[CaptainCanada]

No offense dude but what are you smoke?! Are you saying that the accepting economic sanctions is VOLUNTARY?!?!
No, I'm saying trade is voluntary. If other nations want to refuse to trade with you, that's their prerogative.

Ok, maybe you DON'T understand the full term of economic sanctions...what about economic aid then? If a country refuses to comply then countries like US and UK will cut off economic aid. Like what the US and other countries is doing happening to North Korea.
I perfectly understand what an economic sanction is. Economic aid is also voluntary; it's up to countries to decide whether they want to give it or not.

Whatever the Hulk is doing - its the same as what the US and UK are doing.
No, it's not. Economic sanctions or a withdrawal of economic aid involve the cessation of trade or financial aid that was being provided by another country that had no obligation to do so, and does not directly harm anyone within the country subject to said sanctions. The Hulk is waging an armed conflict that aggressively attacks another planet.

Also what the Hulk is doing, is similar to what the US did to Afghanistan after 9/11 - you don't want to hand over the people we want, fine - we're just come over and TAKE them.
He never offered the government the chance to hand over said people, or provided any evidence of their guilt. He just invaded and told them to show up or he'll start smashing.

Sure there's no PROOF that Tony & company rigged the shuttle that's why the Hulk is taking them alive to probably trial and question them.
He could do that in a neutral venue.

That's definitely a better deal than simply blasting the Hulk into space without a trial.
If it's a trial by combat, which is Sakaar law, then no, it's not, really.

And when has the Hulk suggested that he WASN'T going to put them on trial?
When he said "I've come to smash"? That doesn't imply a trial. Of course, based on the fourth cover, there's some sort of kangaroo proceedings, but he's never suggested anything like that (which, anyway, isn't anything approaching a genuine legal system).
I suggest you go read what the writer Pax suggested the Hulk could do i.e. present his case to the UN to get Tony & company but he couldn't run the risk of Tony & company further opportunity and time to plot.
He gave them 24 hours; plenty of time to run, if they so chose (especially in Strange's case).
Seriously go read WWH #1 again - the Hulk ONLY gave the world a warning and in no way declare war YET. His message was "handover Tony & Co. or else.
Or else I'll smash you all, who have done nothing, in lieu of them.

[ComicCollector777]

Dude, I'm rather speechless by your response:

No, I'm saying trade is voluntary. If other nations want to refuse to trade with you, that's their prerogative.

I perfectly understand what an economic sanction is. Economic aid is also voluntary; it's up to countries to decide whether they want to give it or not.

No, it's not. Economic sanctions or a withdrawal of economic aid involve the cessation of trade or financial aid that was being provided by another country that had no obligation to do so, and does not directly harm anyone within the country subject to said sanctions. The Hulk is waging an armed conflict that aggressively attacks another planet.



The terms economic sanctions and economic aid can be used in the SAME context and please DON'T tell that to the innocent masses of countries that are on the receiving end (of them) that they are VOLUNTARY because they aren't.

I don't want to bring in REAL LIFE examples but I think you don't understand the consequences. For example, North Korea.

Why do you think the North Koreans are willing to cease their nuclear activities? To prevent the threat of economic sanctions that can lead to hardship and eventual death. Likewise the same goes for economic aid.

Do you know that without economic aid and the imposing of economic sanctions can lead to the deaths of the innocent North Korean masses who are under the CRAZY rule of their govt?

Economic sanctions and cutting of economic aid is the same as the threat of armed conflict - it "twists" the arm of the other country to get certain things done. I'm not talking about some petty squabble between US and the China here.

Good grief. Death by the economic sanctions and lack of economic aid is the SAME as death by armed conflict. It both RESULTS in death.



He never offered the government the chance to hand over said people, or provided any evidence of their guilt. He just invaded and told them to show up or he'll start smashing.



Dude, I suggest you go read what Pax mentioned in an interview - the Hulk COULD have presented his case to the UN but if he did, it would give the "other side" opportunities to plan attacks against him.

I suggest you do more research before asking more questions.



He could do that in a neutral venue.

If it's a trial by combat, which is Sakaar law, then no, it's not, really.



Its a tit-for-tat thing and that what most countries do. The main bulk of the explosion took place at a highly populated area with alot of activities on the alien world aka Crown City so its natural for the Hulk to target NY.

That's why Marvel has been winning in sales against DC because the situations that what Marvel is putting its characters are similar in real life.



When he said "I've come to smash"? That doesn't imply a trial. Of course, based on the fourth cover, there's some sort of kangaroo proceedings, but he's never suggested anything like that (which, anyway, isn't anything approaching a genuine legal system).



Its a THREAT and WARNING first. Think about it, if the Hulk could, he could have attacked Tony & company without prior warning but instead he allows the people to leave first to probably minimize damage.

And how do you DEFINE a genuine legal system? Are we going to define the whole LEGAL system of the universe based on the Earth's? That's very naive thinking.

Last time I checked, even the legal systems between different countries have DIFFERENT legal systems and how do we KNOW if the Hulk isn't going to QUESTION them first?

If you study the law and history, you SHOULD know that the captives are placed on the trails based on the WINNING side. Therefore, if Tony and company are captured, they're going to be face the laws of Sakaar. Likewise when the Hulk is CAPTURED, he's going to face trial by US laws - assuming he was captured on US soil.



He gave them 24 hours; plenty of time to run, if they so chose (especially in Strange's case).

Or else I'll smash you all, who have done nothing, in lieu of them.

[/QUOTE]

At LEAST the Hulk gave them time to run. He wasn't even given time to defend himself prior his exile.

I guess one of the SORE points (other than the fact he's beating up some of our faves) is about the Hulk's invasion of NY is this - was he JUSTIFIED to do so?

Well, coming from Pax himself - the moral about the Hulk is that rage no matter how JUSTIFIED comes at a price. And the price I think, is that in the end the world will be view him a threat that Tony and company initially make him up to be.

If you want further "prove" about Marvel's stand, that the Hulk is JUSTIFIED, let's take the Ghost Rider encounter. Their encounter was much hyped not because of their fight but because whether the Hulk was JUSTIFIED in AVENGING those who died on Sakaar. And that's what the writers at Marvel mentioned.

Sure GR is very extreme in his views of "right" and "wrong" but with him, there's "no gray area". And according to Strange, when the GR sped off, it showed that the Hulk was JUSTIFIED.

[CaptainCanada]

The terms economic sanctions and economic aid can be used in the SAME context and please DON'T tell that to the innocent masses of countries that are on the receiving end (of them) that they are VOLUNTARY because they aren't.
Economic aid is voluntary; economic sanctions are not, but trade is. How many times do I have to say this?
Why do you think the North Koreans are willing to cease their nuclear activities? To prevent the threat of economic sanctions that can lead to hardship and eventual death. Likewise the same goes for economic aid.

Do you know that without economic aid and the imposing of economic sanctions can lead to the deaths of the innocent North Korean masses who are under the CRAZY rule of their govt?

Economic sanctions and cutting of economic aid is the same as the threat of armed conflict - it "twists" the arm of the other country to get certain things done. I'm not talking about some petty squabble between US and the China here.

Good grief. Death by the economic sanctions and lack of economic aid is the SAME as death by armed conflict. It both RESULTS in death.
No, they are not the same thing. Nations are not required to trade with you, or give you money, if they don't agree with you. Refusing to do that is not at all the same thing as using military force against said country.

It is an application of pressure (I never denied that), but they are different kinds of pressure; cessation of trade or financial support that was purely voluntary (and, in both cases, usually contingent on good behavior, especially in the latter) is not comparable to military action.

And in the specific case of North Korea, their nuclear program was never anything more than their bargaining chip in their continual attempts to get Western governments to prop up their rotting economy.

Dude, I suggest you go read what Pax mentioned in an interview - the Hulk COULD have presented his case to the UN but if he did, it would give the "other side" opportunities to plan attacks against him.

I suggest you do more research before asking more questions.
I read that interview. It's a silly argument, because, as noted, he gave them 24 hours, which is more than enough time for them to escape (and you yourself admit). And that's still no reason not to go through proper channels.
Its a THREAT and WARNING first. Think about it, if the Hulk could, he could have attacked Tony & company without prior warning but instead he allows the people to leave first to probably minimize damage.
I never denied that, but he is still threatening deliberate retaliation against civilians if he doesn't get what he wants.

And how do you DEFINE a genuine legal system? Are we going to define the whole LEGAL system of the universe based on the Earth's? That's very naive thinking.

Last time I checked, even the legal systems between different countries have DIFFERENT legal systems
I define a legal system as being based on a search for truth through rational means, and trial-by-combat is not that; it's purely a trial of strength. It's not a real legal system, as any civilized people would define it.

[tjarvis]

If you want further "prove" about Marvel's stand, that the Hulk is JUSTIFIED, let's take the Ghost Rider encounter. Their encounter was much hyped not because of their fight but because whether the Hulk was JUSTIFIED in AVENGING those who died on Sakaar. And that's what the writers at Marvel mentioned.

Sure GR is very extreme in his views of "right" and "wrong" but with him, there's "no gray area". And according to Strange, when the GR sped off, it showed that the Hulk was JUSTIFIED.

Actually, if the implication is that Ghost Rider though the Hulk was justified, than GR would have stayed and helped the Hulk. The fact that he left meant that the Illuminati were not innocent, but the fact that he didn't stay meant neither was the Hulk.

It's an all around gray issue, because at the end of the day, the Hulk is simply approaching this in a fashion that is ultimately destructive and damaging. If you want to infer this to be an allegorical reference to current political issues, so be it. However, it would be a mistake to assume that Marvel's stance is that the Hulk is completely justified.

Hell, most people I know say that Iron Man came out of WWH #1 looking way more heroic than the Hulk. Pak is trying to show both sides of this issue.

[Pendaran]

Sure GR is very extreme in his views of "right" and "wrong" but with him, there's "no gray area". And according to Strange, when the GR sped off, it showed that the Hulk was JUSTIFIED.

Ghost Rider also feels that the time he (GR that is) killed a plane full of innocent people was completely justified. Which is what the writer of his comic showed about him in the issue that came just before where GR killed a plane full of innocent people, then later commented that his vengeance was worth any cost. Explicitly. I wouldn't really point to the Ghost Rider as a benchmark of morality.

[ComicCollector777]

Actually, if the implication is that Ghost Rider though the Hulk was justified, than GR would have stayed and helped the Hulk. The fact that he left meant that the Illuminati were not innocent, but the fact that he didn't stay meant neither was the Hulk.

It's an all around gray issue, because at the end of the day, the Hulk is simply approaching this in a fashion that is ultimately destructive and damaging. If you want to infer this to be an allegorical reference to current political issues, so be it. However, it would be a mistake to assume that Marvel's stance is that the Hulk is completely justified.

Hell, most people I know say that Iron Man came out of WWH #1 looking way more heroic than the Hulk. Pak is trying to show both sides of this issue.

And most people I know still feel IM displays fascist characteristics and is a hypocrite! XD

Seriously, if GR have stayed WWH would have taken on a whole new level but
I believe Marvel removed him because of GR's own story lines unlike Herc and the Angel.

I agree that the Hulk isn't completely justified but that's the core of moral story of the Hulk - rage no matter justified comes at a price.

The price IMO is the damage and destruction he causes, will ultimately prove Tony and company were right in initially blasting him into space.

Ghost Rider also feels that the time he (GR that is) killed a plane full of innocent people was completely justified. Which is what the writer of his comic showed about him in the issue that came just before where GR killed a plane full of innocent people, then later commented that his vengeance was worth any cost. Explicitly. I wouldn't really point to the Ghost Rider as a benchmark of morality.

Yes, I know about the plane thingy and GR probably felt the same with regards to the damage done on NY city. And although GR shouldn't be taken as the be all benchmark of morality, it does convey the message that Hulk is justified in bring Tony and company but not in his methods as they were too extreme.

[Pendaran]

it does convey the message that Hulk is justified in bring Tony and company but not in his methods as they were too extreme.

I can't really take too seriously the viewpoints of a mystical being that basically mass murdered the innocent on who has any justification for anything, as far as my own view, let me put it like that. Ghost Rider mostly just comes off as insane after GR 12.

[Hulk Strongest One]

I keep hearing people talk about how CLEARLY Hulk will give trials. And they'll be totally fair, since he has so many impartial judges and whatnot.

Then you won't have any objections when the Illuminati all get sentences of, let's see, probably minimum security for a maximum of five years, for the exile? And absolutely nothing for the bomb since there is no proof. Hell, Doctor Strange could probably cast a spell to PROVE beyond doubt that they DIDN'T do it.

When millions die because of a mistake, perhaps it's proper to execute those who started it, even if unintentional?

Because, you know, millions of lives are millions of lives, and people should be more careful.

No, one doesn't need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt when an act of war kills millions. "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt" is reserved for civilized society, which cannot exist in the face of certain assaults.

[Hulk Strongest One]

Extreme...by what standards?

An extremely savage beating is much less than they deserve, given what they did lead to the deaths of millions. All Hulk wanted was to be left alone, and they failed to do that.

This is punishment to Earth for allowing them to do that. "No, your whole planet will move and get out of my way for a change."

[Magneto Rocks]

When millions die because of a mistake, perhaps it's proper to execute those who started it, even if unintentional?

Well firstly no, it's not, because there are no circumstances under which capital punishment is fitting. Secondly, even if there were, this wouldn't be numbered among them, because if you sent someone away in a truck and then someone else smashed into the truck, killing all involved, it's not your fault.

So it's doubtful whether they're at any faultm saying they should be executed is beyond extreme.

[XPac]

Secondly, even if there were, this wouldn't be numbered among them, because if you sent someone away in a truck and then someone else smashed into the truck, killing all involved, it's not your fault.



If you send someone away in a truck he cannot drive or control and it ends up killing someone, then I'd say it was your fault.

[Shellhead]

Hulk threatened every man, woman and child in New York City. Millions and millions of innocent people who knew nothing of the Illuminati or their plans. And the people of New York City have suffered from previous rampages by the Hulk, especially back when he was in the Defenders. They didn't deserve this.

Hulk is a villain now. Deal with it.

[Kevinroc]

Hulk threatened every man, woman and child in New York City. Millions and millions of innocent people who knew nothing of the Illuminati or their plans. And the people of New York City have suffered from previous rampages by the Hulk, especially back when he was in the Defenders. They didn't deserve this.

Hulk is a villain now. Deal with it.

If Hulk were an out and out villain now, he'd be handling this situation "Amazons Attack" style instead of the way he's doing it. Which is to say, sending much in the way of mixed messages. He's, y'know, crazy...

[XPac]

Hulk is a villain now. Deal with it.

I think the purpose of this storyline is to explore the issue of whether or not Hulk is a monster or hero.

But if you believe the writers intent is to transform the Hulk into a villian, we will have to agree to disagree.

Maybe would make the arguement about Iron Man being a villian. I think the more accurate answer is that it's simply not that simple.

[DaeJi]

I don't think the Hulk is anything yet; we've yet to reach the end of the event, and only once we are there will we see what the Hulk chooses: hero or monster. I just hope there is an answer to that question, a definite (for now) answer.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well firstly no, it's not, because there are no circumstances under which capital punishment is fitting. Secondly, even if there were, this wouldn't be numbered among them, because if you sent someone away in a truck and then someone else smashed into the truck, killing all involved, it's not your fault.

So it's doubtful whether they're at any faultm saying they should be executed is beyond extreme.


If their actions led to the destruction of an entire world, all it's races and cultures contained within, then there's really no excuse not to execute Reed, Stark et all. That's genocide, and the world has executed people for that.

I'm pulling for a third party being responsible, but if not...they really do deserve to die.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Hulk threatened every man, woman and child in New York City. Millions and millions of innocent people who knew nothing of the Illuminati or their plans. And the people of New York City have suffered from previous rampages by the Hulk, especially back when he was in the Defenders. They didn't deserve this.

Hulk is a villain now. Deal with it.

Every government in the world has threaten societies that harbor enemies intentionally. It's par for course in international relationships.

[Shellhead]

If their actions led to the destruction of an entire world, all it's races and cultures contained within, then there's really no excuse not to execute Reed, Stark et all. That's genocide, and the world has executed people for that.

I'm pulling for a third party being responsible, but if not...they really do deserve to die.

"Look what you made me do" sounds like something Osama bin-Ladan would say.

My personal rule of thumb is that once a guy starts threatening millions of children, that guy is a bad guy. It doesn't matter if his name is Saddam Hussein or George W. Bush or Hulk, threatening innocent children is wrong, and threatening a million of them is downright evil.

[Jake V]

Hulk threatened every man, woman and child in New York City. Millions and millions of innocent people who knew nothing of the Illuminati or their plans. And the people of New York City have suffered from previous rampages by the Hulk, especially back when he was in the Defenders. They didn't deserve this.

Hulk is a villain now. Deal with it.

It's only fair though. They killed his planet, he should kill theirs.

[The Cool Thatguy]

"Look what you made me do" sounds like something Osama bin-Ladan would say.

My personal rule of thumb is that once a guy starts threatening millions of children, that guy is a bad guy. It doesn't matter if his name is Saddam Hussein or George W. Bush or Hulk, threatening innocent children is wrong, and threatening a million of them is downright evil.

Hulk represents a world destroyed by the actions of Stark et all, Bin Laden represents only himself.

Hulk told them to get out of the way, and made a threat to ensure that those he was looking for wouldn't run and hide (not like threatening to smash all wildlife would have created the same kind of pressure). As a recognized ruler seeking justice for his people, that's well within his rights. After all, how many children died on Sakaar?

Stark, Reed et all's actions amount to genocide, and yet you call hulk a villain simply for a threat, one he cleared meant to draw out the people he was looking for, and didn't intend to carry out? Odd standards that.

[Jake V]

"Look what you made me do" sounds like something Osama bin-Ladan would say.

My personal rule of thumb is that once a guy starts threatening millions of children, that guy is a bad guy. It doesn't matter if his name is Saddam Hussein or George W. Bush or Hulk, threatening innocent children is wrong, and threatening a million of them is downright evil.

Isn't actually killing children worse?

[Shellhead]

It's only fair though. They killed his planet, he should kill theirs.

The ordinary citizens of New York City killed a planet? The Marvel Universe is getting really weird lately.

Last time I checked the math, two wrongs still do not equal one right.

[Jake V]

The ordinary citizens of New York City killed a planet? The Marvel Universe is getting really weird lately.

Last time I checked the math, two wrongs still do not equal one right.

Yeah, but it kind of evens things out in an 18th century BC, Hammurabi way.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The ordinary citizens of New York City killed a planet? The Marvel Universe is getting really weird lately.

Last time I checked the math, two wrongs still do not equal one right.


Last time I did the math, anyone who knowingly harbors criminals who've attacked another nation open themselves up to attack, if said people are not surrendered.

[ivesaidway2much]

The ordinary citizens of New York City killed a planet? The Marvel Universe is getting really weird lately.

Last time I checked the math, two wrongs still do not equal one right.That's not really true. If the Hulk defeats the Illuminati, he may be able to prevent them from destroying the world maybe the universe through their own incompetence. Then in that case threatening a million children would have been worth getting rid of a far more evil threat.

[Shellhead]

Yeah, but it kind of evens things out in an 18th century BC, Hammurabi way.

The current Hulk makes Mister Fixit look like a model citizen by comparison. Maybe this is how Hulk becomes Maestro in the 616.

[Jake V]

The current Hulk makes Mister Fixit look like a model citizen by comparison. Maybe this is how Hulk becomes Maestro in the 616.

What exactly is a "model citizen" supposed to do when his wife, unborn child, and entire planet of innocent people are killed because of the carelessness of the people who would call this "model citizen" a monster?

I suppose he's just supposed to talk it out, right? Roll over like it never happened?

[DaeJi]

What exactly is a "model citizen" supposed to do when his wife, unborn child, and entire planet of innocent people are killed because of the carelessness of the people who would call this "model citizen" a monster?

I suppose he's just supposed to talk it out, right? Roll over like it never happened?

Still don't know about the bomb. Hell, if there never was a bomb then the Hulk would probably be happier than he's ever been, finally having found a home. He may have came back after ten years or so to thank the Illumnati, who despite being jerks about the whole thing gave him the greatest gift he could ever ask for.

Alas, it was not to be. Poor Hulk :(.

[Shellhead]

What exactly is a "model citizen" supposed to do when his wife, unborn child, and entire planet of innocent people are killed because of the carelessness of the people who would call this "model citizen" a monster?

I suppose he's just supposed to talk it out, right? Roll over like it never happened?

Hulk can do whatever he wants. He has abandoned conventional morality in his quest for vengeance.

But if he wanted to be a hero, he would find a better way to handle things. Because heroes don't threaten innocent children. That isn't a matter of guesswork.

A few years ago, Marvel was running a little low on quality villains, because they allowed writers to convert too many entertaining villains into heroes. Now Marvel is running a little low on heroes, because they have allowed writers to change some of the top heroes as amoral jerks. The Ultimate universe may have lost popularity after too many missed deadlines and rehashed stories, but Marvel has fully embraced the idea of heroes becoming jerks. But it's a slippery slope from hero to jerk to villain.

Iron Man has become kind of a fascist. Reed Richards and Hank Pym easily fell in step with Stark. Spider-man endangered his loved ones with his irresponsible decision to out himself. Hulk has deliberately launched his biggest rampage ever. Black Panther is withholding the cure for cancer from the world out of spite. My childhood heroes have become quite the rogues gallery. Pardon me if I no longer respect or even like them.

[Exo]

What exactly is a "model citizen" supposed to do when his wife, unborn child, and entire planet of innocent people are killed because of the carelessness of the people who would call this "model citizen" a monster?

Was the planet Sakaar only populated by a total of one million citizens? I thought only the capital city was destroyed (and not the entire planet).

[The Cool Thatguy]

Hulk can do whatever he wants. He has abandoned conventional morality in his quest for vengeance.



Hulk isn't that far gone, not yet. Up until now, though heavy handed, his actions are justified. Stark et all destroyed his world. Anyone that stands between him and them is fair game. Destruction of property, even that of an entire island, is petty compared to the genocide of an entire planet. And threats to ensure that your enemies don't run is standard fair.

Given Hulk's nature, I'm certain he will cross an unjustified line before too long. But it's not there yet.

[Jake V]

Hulk can do whatever he wants. He has abandoned conventional morality in his quest for vengeance.

But if he wanted to be a hero, he would find a better way to handle things. Because heroes don't threaten innocent children. That isn't a matter of guesswork.

When did the Hulk ever want to be a hero?

[Kevinroc]

Hulk can do whatever he wants. He has abandoned conventional morality in his quest for vengeance.

But if he wanted to be a hero, he would find a better way to handle things. Because heroes don't threaten innocent children. That isn't a matter of guesswork.

A few years ago, Marvel was running a little low on quality villains, because they allowed writers to convert too many entertaining villains into heroes. Now Marvel is running a little low on heroes, because they have allowed writers to change some of the top heroes as amoral jerks. The Ultimate universe may have lost popularity after too many missed deadlines and rehashed stories, but Marvel has fully embraced the idea of heroes becoming jerks. But it's a slippery slope from hero to jerk to villain.

Iron Man has become kind of a fascist. Reed Richards and Hank Pym easily fell in step with Stark. Spider-man endangered his loved ones with his irresponsible decision to out himself. Hulk has deliberately launched his biggest rampage ever. Black Panther is withholding the cure for cancer from the world out of spite. My childhood heroes have become quite the rogues gallery. Pardon me if I no longer respect or even like them.

Hulk has a funny way of deliberately launching his "biggest rampage ever" when he tells people to evacuate and then warns everybody to not come between him and the Illuminati. In fact, he and/ or the Warbound have given warnings to the X-Men, the Avengers and the Fantastic Four to stay out of Hulk's way while he beats up the Illuminati.

If he were as amoral as you claim he is, he would be attacking Amazons Attack style.

[Jake V]

Was the planet Sakaar only populated by a total of one million citizens? I thought only the capital city was destroyed (and not the entire planet).

Why would the number matter?

[Exo]

Why would the number matter?

I though the planet was intact. Did the planet explode killing the entire populace?

[Jake V]

I though the planet was intact. Did the planet explode killing the entire populace?

It had a shaky tectonic plate structure. When the ship exploded, it shifted all the plates so the surface was covered with lava.

[Exo]

It had a shaky tectonic plate structure. When the ship exploded, it shifted all the plates so the surface was covered with lava.

Thanks for the clarification. So there's no point in returning to Sakaar as the planet his uninhabitable.

[Will.S]

He's more of a misguided villain.

The only legitimately good beef Hulk has against the Illuminati is being shot into space. As we all know, the Illuminati meant to send him to a peaceful planet. Going through some portal into Sakaar and the city blowing up wasn't their fault since one of those things was cosmic nature and the other a freak accident that remains unexplainable although Miek might have something to do with it.

This is going to have to be explained to him in some form or another either through Xavier or Dr. Strange. As for Sakaar I remember Greg Pak saying quite a few times that we haven't seen the last of Sakaar.

[Kevinroc]

He's more of a misguided villain.

The only legitimately good beef Hulk has against the Illuminati is being shot into space. As we all know, the Illuminati meant to send him to a peaceful planet. Going through some portal into Sakaar and the city blowing up wasn't their fault since one of those things was cosmic nature and the other a freak accident that remains unexplainable although Miek might have something to do with it.

This is going to have to be explained to him in some form or another either through Xavier or Dr. Strange.

What does that make the Illuminati? At best, they are a group of lying kidnappers. At worst, you don't even want to know...

[Exo]

This is going to have to be explained to him in some form or another either through Xavier or Dr. Strange.

The Hulk won't listen unless you beat him into submission, a feat that is seemingly impossible to accomplish, and forcefeed him this new intel.

[Shellhead]

The Hulk won't listen unless you beat him into submission, a feat that is seemingly impossible to accomplish, and forcefeed him this new intel.

If one of earth's most powerful telepaths or the Sorceror Supreme of the 616 Dimension want to tell Hulk something, he won't be able to ignore them. Given time, either Xavier or Strange could even re-write Hulk's memories. It would take some pretty extreme circumstances before they would even consider doing that to Hulk, but they have the power.

[Will.S]

What does that make the Illuminati? At best, they are a group of lying kidnappers. At worst, you don't even want to know...
I actually think at worst they are a group of lying kidnappers. Barring that anything else was too nebulous to attribute to them. Had they planned to send him to Sakaar and blow it up then we have a good case of villainy there.

[Kevinroc]

I actually think at worst they are a group of lying kidnappers. Barring that anything else was too nebulous to attribute to them. Had they planned to send him to Sakaar and blow it up then we have a good case of villainy there.

They're already a group of lying kidnappers. You can argue technicalities but they did lie to him and they did kidnap him. If they want to be called "heroes", they have to live with the consequences of engaging in such duplicitous activities.

[Exo]

If one of earth's most powerful telepaths or the Sorceror Supreme of the 616 Dimension want to tell Hulk something, he won't be able to ignore them.

As it's been printed in WWH:Xmen #1 because of his rage, Hulk's created a mental blockade able to shut out even the best of telepaths.

[Kevinroc]

If one of earth's most powerful telepaths or the Sorceror Supreme of the 616 Dimension want to tell Hulk something, he won't be able to ignore them. Given time, either Xavier or Strange could even re-write Hulk's memories. It would take some pretty extreme circumstances before they would even consider doing that to Hulk, but they have the power.

Except for the part where Xavier tried to probe Hulk's mind and the backlash was enough to make him realize not to do anything like that anytime soon.

And Strange feels like enough of a bad guy already without engaging in tactics that upset fans when they saw the JLA do it in Identity Crisis.

[The White-Spider]

Wow. This is collapsing along some very strange lines.

It is not acceptable to kill X number of people in once place because X number of people were killed in another place. (Even the rage driven Hulk knows that, and tic-for-tat was never his goal.) The Illuminati were not representatives of any government of group of people other than themselves. They were an extralegal group that concealed themselves from everyone.

No one can be punished for their crimes -- excepting themselves.


Threats of action are common in human social interaction and especially between military powers. The threat is not equal to the execution. Often a threat is put on the table as a deterrent or ploy in order to get a second party to back down or behave differently. How often do we hear that "All options are on the table" or "X country will be wiped out." Of course these threats should be taken seriously, but they are psychological warfare intended to get the other party to act in the way the party issuing the threat would have them behave.

You have to step back and look at what the party is trying to accomplish with the threat. What do they actually want? It's clear that the Hulk wanted the Illuminati to show up. He did not want anything to happen that would slow him down or interfere with his ultimate goal, which was getting to them.
He has no interest in smashing their planet as an independent goal to itself.

Now, once we begin talking about what he was willing to do if they didn't show up, etc., we also have to start taking into account whether or not the Hulk believed they would show up. Hulk knows these people. He knows how to push their buttons.

There's no way on Earth he could put on that kind of public spectacle and not have the Marvel Heroes, including the Illuminati, swarming all over the area waiting for him. Hulk is not an idiot. He knew they would be there. His threat is intended (1) to make absolutely sure no one backs out and (2) play to his own "citizens" whose support he is relying on in his battle with the Illuminati.

Both speeches, Tony's "Everything I'll do today" and Hulk's "Now this city will fall" were political speeches aimed at constituencies, (in addition to whatever else they might have been) and have other layers than their surface value. People continue to overlook the politics at play here and take everything verbatim.

Blank or not, Hulk's threat succeeded at accomplishing it's goal. Getting the Illuminati to come to him -- which is a lot smarter and safer for everyone than Hulk and his Warbound landing on Earth and going through people to find them.

[Will.S]

They're already a group of lying kidnappers. You can argue technicalities but they did lie to him and they did kidnap him. If they want to be called "heroes", they have to live with the consequences of engaging in such duplicitous activities.
I'm not really arguing with the actual deed of Illuminaiti, I agree that they should have to deal with Hulk in some form or another. That said, some of them felt that they were entirely justified in doing so like Black Bolt and Iron Man, Xavier said he would have done the same but in a different way while Dr. Strange and Reed feel that they got what they deserved. Xavier had nothing to do with it and yet Hulk still feels that he should capture him and do whatever he's going to do with the group.

What it comes down to is, the Illuminati are a deeply flawed group who are doing things going in with the best intentions. Sometimes they do very well such as with the Sentry, in others they fail spectacularly such as with the Skrulls. But I can't think of them as the villains Hulk paints them to be.

Especially when Hulk himself is also misguided because he thinks that the Illuminati caused those chain of events when really all he has to go on for is getting lied to and being shot into space which again I would give him that but outside of that it goes beyond just revenge.

[Kevinroc]

Since Banner is on Hulk's side of this equation, I'm surprised more people think Hulk is being absolutely literal with everything he is saying. Granted he's not "The Professor" right now but he clearly can use metaphors, similes, allegories, and other forms of figurative language.

[Kevinroc]

I'm not really arguing with the actual deed of Illuminaiti, I agree that they should have to deal with Hulk in some form or another. That said, some of them felt that they were entirely justified in doing so like Black Bolt and Iron Man, Xavier said he would have done the same but in a different way while Dr. Strange and Reed feel that they got what they deserved. Xavier had nothing to do with it and yet Hulk still feels that he should capture him and do whatever he's going to do with the group.

What it comes down to is, the Illuminati are a deeply flawed group who are doing things going in with the best intentions. Sometimes they do very well such as with the Sentry, in others they fail spectacularly such as with the Skrulls. But I can't think of them as the villains Hulk paints them to be.

Especially when Hulk himself is also misguided because he thinks that the Illuminati caused those chain of events when really all he has to go on for is getting lied to and being shot into space which again I would give him that but outside of that it goes beyond just revenge.

The problem is they claim to be heroes. So they have to be held to a higher standard than someone like the Hulk. The Hulk doesn't claim to be a hero. In fact, he referred to himself as a monster throughout Planet Hulk.

It all comes down to if you can accept your heroes behaving as monsters or your monsters behaving as monsters.

[The White-Spider]

Since Banner is on Hulk's side of this equation, I'm surprised more people think Hulk is being absolutely literal with everything he is saying. Granted he's not "The Professor" right now but he clearly can use metaphors, similes, allegories, and other forms of figurative language.

Even if you take it literally, it's very intelligently worded so as to be vague. "Or I'll do this." "This city will fall." 85% of everything the Hulk has ever said involves some variation on "smashing" "breaking" "tearing", etc. He has gone out of his way not to use words of specific action, and has replaced them with things to be inferred. It's very smart writing and a sign of the Hulk using clever tactics to guide the situation.

[Will.S]

The problem is they claim to be heroes. So they have to be held to a higher standard than someone like the Hulk. The Hulk doesn't claim to be a hero. In fact, he referred to himself as a monster throughout Planet Hulk.

It all comes down to if you can accept your heroes behaving as monsters or your monsters behaving as monsters.
So let me just ask a few hypothetical questions.

If Hulk is a monster and believes himself as such and Banner would have agreed to being banished, doesn't that further justify the Illuminati's actions? Doesn't that make Hulk a hypocrite?

Had Sakaar not exploded would he would have stayed or would he eventually get a ship and go after the Illuminati anyway?

[Kevinroc]

So let me just ask a few hypothetical questions.

If Hulk is a monster and believes himself as such and Banner would have agreed to being banished, doesn't that further justify the Illuminati's actions? Doesn't that make Hulk a hypocrite?

Had Sakaar not exploded would he would have stayed or would he eventually get a ship and go after the Illuminati anyway?

To answer your second question first, we don't know what would have happened. Caiera had seemingly convinced him to let go of his anger over his treatment. But that kind of hypothetical "what if" can be hard to answer with any certainty. It seemed like he wouldn't have come back of his own violation but Marvel would have to find some other way to bring him back to Earth at some point in time.

As for your first question, let me just say that it is hypocritical to call yourself a hero and engage in deception and plan kidnappings. If the Hulk is acceptable, it does eventually become a question of who gets to stay or who gets to go. Why not just get rid of Dr. Doom? He's fairly dangerous. Why not just send all those pesky anti-registration characters into space then?

Even if the Hulk is a monster, he's still a living creature and an American citizen. What Tony and the others did was essentially engage in a federally endorsed kidnapping. Hulk is mad that they asked him to save the world and then treated him like "garbage" (WWH: X-Men #2). I don't see how it could be perceived as hypocritical to save the world when asked and then get mad when they toss you off the planet.

[Will.S]

To answer your second question first, we don't know what would have happened. Caiera had seemingly convinced him to let go of his anger over his treatment. But that kind of hypothetical "what if" can be hard to answer with any certainty. It seemed like he wouldn't have come back of his own violation but Marvel would have to find some other way to bring him back to Earth at some point in time.
Ok that sounds fair enough.

As for your first question, let me just say that it is hypocritical to call yourself a hero and engage in deception and plan kidnappings. If the Hulk is acceptable, it does eventually become a question of who gets to stay or who gets to go. Why not just get rid of Dr. Doom? He's fairly dangerous. Why not just send all those pesky anti-registration characters into space then?
Well that's the rub, Marvel by it's very definition is full of flawed heroes, and I don't see the Illuminati as an exception to that. They wanted to both do what's best for society as a whole because of Hulk's random nature as well as give Hulk peace and quiet but Hulk was tricked and there lies the flaw of the superheroes.

As for Doom, Reed tries to get rid of Dr. Doom on many a time. He's another guy that just comes back no matter what you throw at him especially after being trapped in both a moebius dimension and "hell" itself. Reed even took it upon himself to invade Latveria and rid his castle of all of it's stockpiled toys.

Even if the Hulk is a monster, he's still a living creature and an American citizen. What Tony and the others did was essentially engage in a federally endorsed kidnapping. Hulk is mad that they asked him to save the world and then treated him like "garbage" (WWH: X-Men #2). I don't see how it could be perceived as hypocritical to save the world when asked and then get mad when they toss you off the planet.
The US army in the MU constantly try to do what the Illuminati have done. They've never set up quite an elaborate scheme but even the US gov't don't want him around and I'm sure were quite relieved that he was off planet.

That doesn't make what the Illuminati did right since it was done without Hulk's approval but I thought that they did have good reasons and in the end without the explosion of Sakaar's main city Hulk would have been at peace with himself and his world alongside Caiera.

[Kevinroc]

Well that's the rub, Marvel by it's very definition is full of flawed heroes, and I don't see the Illuminati as an exception to that. They wanted to both do what's best for society as a whole because of Hulk's random nature as well as give Hulk peace and quiet but Hulk was tricked and there lies the flaw of the superheroes.

As for Doom, Reed tries to get rid of Dr. Doom on many a time. He's another guy that just comes back no matter what you throw at him especially after being trapped in both a moebius dimension and "hell" itself. Reed even took it upon himself to invade Latveria and rid his castle of all of it's stockpiled toys.

I'm well aware that Marvel has flawed heroes.

But where do you draw the line on who to get rid of if Hulk is acceptable? Should those pesky anti-reg heroes be shot into space?

What I'm saying is they can't be called "pure heroes" if they engage in this kind of activity.

The US army in the MU constantly try to do what the Illuminati have done. They've never set up quite an elaborate scheme but even the US gov't don't want him around and I'm sure were quite relieved that he was off planet.

That doesn't make what the Illuminati did right since it was done without Hulk's approval but I thought that they did have good reasons and in the end without the explosion of Sakaar's main city Hulk would have been at peace with himself and his world alongside Caiera.

The US army are typically the bad guys in Hulk comics.

[DaeJi]

*wrong thread*

Also, as bad as the Illumnati are, they didn't try to kill the Hulk. Even if they actually thought that they could, they would have exhausted every other choice before going to that one.

[Will.S]

I'm well aware that Marvel has flawed heroes.

But where do you draw the line on who to get rid of if Hulk is acceptable? Should those pesky anti-reg heroes be shot into space?

What I'm saying is they can't be called "pure heroes" if they engage in this kind of activity.
Heh anti-reg heroes aren't shot into space but the Negative Zone will do nicely ;)

I really don't think anyone has qualms with not calling the Illuminaiti "pure heroes", in some ways they are right and in some ways they are not. However they're far from villains like Dr. Doom where his actions and goals are usually malevolent.

The US army are typically the bad guys in Hulk comics.
True enough but it also shows that he didn't really have any "rights" in the MU world from the get go. He probably has about as much rights as a dangerous Bear on the loose in a city. Banner would only be left alone if he stayed as human and nobody would have any problems with him as a scientist.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Hulk didn't say that. He didn't say "I'm going to kill you all" or "I'll destroy this planet." He threatened to do what he did to Black Bolt. And from all indications, Black Bolt is still alive.

In fact, Hulk's entire attitude is very strange from someone that "threatened to kill everyone on Earth."

He's told other characters not to get involved. He's given them the chance to either stand down or join him. If they fight him, it's on their heads.

He ordered New York evacuated.

Is it just an oversimplification for some people to say Hulk threatened to kill everyone? Reading into something that isn't there? That they are ready to believe the worst about the Hulk in a moment's notice?

I'll only answer this question. It's my opinion that reading and comprehension Isn't the strong suit of all Americans. It is however entirely possible that people want to hate HULK as oppose to believing that he could be right in his seeking of vengence.

In a world where people fly solely of their own power, it is hard to believe that Hulk could find justice by simplying reporting the Illuminati to the nearest local authorities.

[Will.S]

I'll only answer this question. It's my opinion that reading and comprehension Isn't the strong suit of all Americans. It is however entirely possible that people want to hate HULK as oppose to believing that he could be right in his seeking of vengence.

In a world where people fly solely of their own power, it is hard to believe that Hulk could find justice by simplying reporting the Illuminati to the nearest local authorities.
The Illuminati deserve to be smashed as long as Hulk doesn't validate the Illuminati's reason for banishing him in the first place. Of course with the wanton destruction and all he's not helping himself in case some people don't evacuate (and we see stragglers in WWH #2).

[The Cool Thatguy]

The Illuminati deserve to be smashed as long as Hulk doesn't validate the Illuminati's reason for banishing him in the first place. Of course with the wanton destruction and all he's not helping himself in case some people don't evacuate (and we see stragglers in WWH #2).

Why? Hulk's actions are in response to the destruction of Sakaar. As the recognized ruler, I think he's entitled to some excessive violence, at least against them and those that stand inbetween Hulk and Stark et all.

[Mike Smash!]

If their actions led to the destruction of an entire world, all it's races and cultures contained within, then there's really no excuse not to execute Reed, Stark et all. That's genocide, and the world has executed people for that.

I'm pulling for a third party being responsible, but if not...they really do deserve to die.As much as I hate to agree with Mags (and I'm sure he feels the same way :) ), there really isn't any good reason to murder people.

Do the Illuminati and company deserve to die? Probably. But that doesn't give anyone the right to murder them. You can't wash away blood with more blood.

That being said, as much as I oppose the death penalty in any form, I really can't feel that sorry for what Tony, Reed, Strange and Blackbolt have brought on themselves.

[Kevinroc]

As much as I hate to agree with Mags (and I'm sure he feels the same way :) ), there really isn't any good reason to murder people.

Do the Illuminati and company deserve to die? Probably. But that doesn't give anyone the right to murder them. You can't wash away blood with more blood.

That being said, as much as I oppose the death penalty in any form, I really can't feel that sorry for what Tony, Reed, Strange and Blackbolt have brought on themselves.

It's hard to feel sorry for kidnappers.

[The Cool Thatguy]

As much as I hate to agree with Mags (and I'm sure he feels the same way :) ), there really isn't any good reason to murder people.

Do the Illuminati and company deserve to die? Probably. But that doesn't give anyone the right to murder them. You can't wash away blood with more blood.

That being said, as much as I oppose the death penalty in any form, I really can't feel that sorry for what Tony, Reed, Strange and Blackbolt have brought on themselves.

Until they reveal a third party responsible, it's not murder, it's justice. Hulk is the recognized leader of Sakaar. Stark et all are responsible for the destruction of his world. I can't think of anyone more deserving to decide their fate (God help them all).

[Mike Smash!]

Until they reveal a third party responsible, it's not murder, it's justice. Hulk is the recognized leader of Sakaar. Stark et all are responsible for the destruction of his world. I can't think of anyone more deserving to decide their fate (God help them all).If he kills them not in battle, but when they're in his custody, it's murder.

But that's a totally different debate and I don't want to derail the thread.

However, he has every right to go after them.

[Will.S]

Why? Hulk's actions are in response to the destruction of Sakaar. As the recognized ruler, I think he's entitled to some excessive violence, at least against them and those that stand inbetween Hulk and Stark et all.
I'm not saying that Hulk shouldn't get some payback but NYC is not the place you want to choose to keep innocents out of harm's way. As someone on this thread pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right.

If Hulk's gonna want to smash them, a fitting place would be some place less populated. For NY to be successfully evacuated calls for many variables, one of which are stragglers who don't deserve to get smashed but stay anyway for whatever reasons.

[CMBMOOL]

Until they reveal a third party responsible, it's not murder, it's justice. Hulk is the recognized leader of Sakaar. Stark et all are responsible for the destruction of his world. I can't think of anyone more deserving to decide their fate (God help them all).

And they also tricked him into space in the first place.:o

[CMBMOOL]

That being said, as much as I oppose the death penalty in any form, I really can't feel that sorry for what Tony, Reed, Strange and Blackbolt have brought on themselves.

I bet there will be people telling them that when WWH is over. :D

[The Cool Thatguy]

If he kills them not in battle, but when they're in his custody, it's murder.

But that's a totally different debate and I don't want to derail the thread.

However, he has every right to go after them.

It was Hulk's adopted world that they destroyed. Either in battle or a monkey court with Hulk as judge, he still has every right to decide their fate. It was his world destroyed, his people displaced. As such, they're subject to Sakaar justice, which happens to be whatever Hulk says it is :evilsmile


I'm not saying that Hulk shouldn't get some payback but NYC is not the place you want to choose to keep innocents out of harm's way. As someone on this thread pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right.

If Hulk's gonna want to smash them, a fitting place would be some place less populated. For NY to be successfully evacuated calls for many variables, one of which are stragglers who don't deserve to get smashed but stay anyway for whatever reasons.

Some retaliation is due for the destruction of an entire world. Given all that Sakaar have lost, the destruction of New York island is nothing.

[Will.S]

Some retaliation is due for the destruction of an entire world. Given all that Sakaar have lost, the destruction of New York island is nothing.
This is not justified just yet, we don't know why the warp core of the ship was compromised.

[The Cool Thatguy]

This is not justified just yet, we don't know why the warp core of the ship was compromised.

And given that it blew up, and led to the destruction of Sakaar, we may never. So what, they ought to just sit around on their hands, doing nothing?

There's plenty of evidence, some circumstantial, some not, that points to Stark et all. That's reason aplenty to hunt them down.

[Legato]

It's debatable on if it's justified but the end result wont favor on both parties since both parties would be viewed as a bunch of mass murderers that have caused distruction on some innocent people that have nothing to do with their cause. So forgiev me for not going to be the one to look down on the citizens New York who gets caught in the crossfire and didn't have anything to do with it just because Tony and his crew is wrong.

The best solution could be to feed Stark and whoever was responsible for the destruction of Hulk's home planet to Hulk and put them in a place whare innocents wont be in danger.

[Trolt]

What i dont get is that if Stark and crew didtn' send Hulk away, he'd never have been to Sakaar in the first place, so whats up with people saying "he's a ruler so he can come smash earth".

Thats a terrible argument.

[ComicCollector777]

Economic aid is voluntary; economic sanctions are not, but trade is. How many times do I have to say this?

No, they are not the same thing. Nations are not required to trade with you, or give you money, if they don't agree with you. Refusing to do that is not at all the same thing as using military force against said country.

It is an application of pressure (I never denied that), but they are different kinds of pressure; cessation of trade or financial support that was purely voluntary (and, in both cases, usually contingent on good behavior, especially in the latter) is not comparable to military action.

And in the specific case of North Korea, their nuclear program was never anything more than their bargaining chip in their continual attempts to get Western governments to prop up their rotting economy.



With regards to the economic sanctions and economic aid thing - you're the ONLY individual I met across various boards who can't see the point I'm trying to make. Death by starvation is still as bad as death by conflict. I'm not going to argue further with you over this point as I'm "flogging a dead horse".

With regards to North Korea, yes we all know about using the nuclear program as a barginning chip but if you were the US, would you DARE to take such a RISK? Their leader is literally a walking time bomb.

And the North Koreans know how "soft hearted" the US and the UK so much so, they can be "exploited".


I read that interview. It's a silly argument, because, as noted, he gave them 24 hours, which is more than enough time for them to escape (and you yourself admit). And that's still no reason not to go through proper channels.


Yes, I admitted that to POINT out that the Hulk wants to minmize damage and death - as what Pax mentioned.


I never denied that, but he is still threatening deliberate retaliation against civilians if he doesn't get what he wants.


Dude, isn't that the same as the slapping of economic sanctions and economic aid (which you disagree are the same) which will ALSO hurt civilians in the long run.

I still stand by the "death by stavation is the same as death by conflict".


I define a legal system as being based on a search for truth through rational means, and trial-by-combat is not that; it's purely a trial of strength. It's not a real legal system, as any civilized people would define it.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but I mentioned before we have NO IDEAL if the Hulk will ask questions first. And what may seems "unfair" to you, maybe fair to others. For example, the jury system is not practised in some countries like in Asia and judgment rests "solely" on the judge. Judgement based on 1 man as opposed by a group of peers...does that sound fair to you?

Anyway, other posters such as Kevinroc have made some good points too.

[jigrig]

It's debatable on if it's justified but the end result wont favor on both parties since both parties would be viewed as a bunch of mass murderers that have caused distruction on some innocent people that have nothing to do with their cause. So forgiev me for not going to be the one to look down on the citizens New York who gets caught in the crossfire and didn't have anything to do with it just because Tony and his crew is wrong.

The best solution could be to feed Stark and whoever was responsible for the destruction of Hulk's home planet to Hulk and put them in a place whare innocents wont be in danger.

The really sad thing about all this is that The Illuminati was originally SUPPOSED to include T'challa, Namor, Xavier, Strange, Boltagar, Stark & Richards & to most of the U.S.A. this would never have been acceptable simply because of the same fear that LITERALLY made Hulk a target.

[jigrig]

It's debatable on if it's justified but the end result wont favor on both parties since both parties would be viewed as a bunch of mass murderers that have caused distruction on some innocent people that have nothing to do with their cause. So forgiev me for not going to be the one to look down on the citizens New York who gets caught in the crossfire and didn't have anything to do with it just because Tony and his crew is wrong.

The best solution could be to feed Stark and whoever was responsible for the destruction of Hulk's home planet to Hulk and put them in a place whare innocents wont be in danger.

The really sad thing about all this is that The Illuminati was originally SUPPOSED to include T'challa, Namor, Xavier, Strange, Boltagar, Stark & Richards & to most of the U.S.A. this would never have been acceptable simply because of the same fear that LITERALLY made Hulk a target.

[jigrig]

It's debatable on if it's justified but the end result wont favor on both parties since both parties would be viewed as a bunch of mass murderers that have caused distruction on some innocent people that have nothing to do with their cause. So forgiev me for not going to be the one to look down on the citizens New York who gets caught in the crossfire and didn't have anything to do with it just because Tony and his crew is wrong.

The best solution could be to feed Stark and whoever was responsible for the destruction of Hulk's home planet to Hulk and put them in a place whare innocents wont be in danger.

The really sad thing about all this is that The Illuminati was originally SUPPOSED to include T'challa, Namor, Xavier, Strange, Boltagar, Stark & Richards & to most of the U.S.A. this would never have been acceptable simply because of the same fear that LITERALLY made Hulk a target.

[Shellhead]

24 hours is NOT enough time to evacuate New York City. Does anybody here remember the massive traffic jam when they tried to evacuate Houston that time after Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans? New York City would an even bigger problem.

[ComicCollector777]

24 hours is NOT enough time to evacuate New York City. Does anybody here remember the massive traffic jam when they tried to evacuate Houston that time after Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans? New York City would an even bigger problem.

But in WWH#1, didn't the fire chief mention that they did it as in evacuate NY?

[The Cool Thatguy]

What i dont get is that if Stark and crew didtn' send Hulk away, he'd never have been to Sakaar in the first place, so whats up with people saying "he's a ruler so he can come smash earth".

Thats a terrible argument.

Because, last time I checked, government leaders were expected to seek justice when their citizens are killed. That's been standard fare for government leaders since before the United States was formed.

[Archmage]

What i dont get is that if Stark and crew didtn' send Hulk away, he'd never have been to Sakaar in the first place, so whats up with people saying "he's a ruler so he can come smash earth".

Thats a terrible argument.



If that's your argument, the United States should never go against England since United States was basically all people that were sent away from England.

[Magneto Rocks]

Because, last time I checked, government leaders were expected to seek justice when their citizens are killed. That's been standard fare for government leaders since before the United States was formed.

And last time I checked, they're required to have SOME form of evidence before they do so and don't tend to smash into other countries, announce that the civilians can go but they're going to find the people they want, smash anyone who stands in their way and oh, if the folk they want don't coimply they'll slaughter every man, woman and child in the country.

[XPac]

What i dont get is that if Stark and crew didtn' send Hulk away, he'd never have been to Sakaar in the first place, so whats up with people saying "he's a ruler so he can come smash earth".

Thats a terrible argument.

I wouldn't agree he was justifed in coming to smash earth.

I wouldn't disagree that he was any less justifed in kidnapping Reed, Tony, and Strange and Black than they were for kidnapping him though. Really, that's all he seemingly wants... he did give the city time to evacuate, and made it clear that he's only after 4 guys.

Honestly, if the Illuminati are REALLY concerned about Hulk causing damage, I'm suprised more of them didn't consider surrendering like Xavier did. Odds are there would be a fight anyways since I'm sure their peers would come to their defense the same way the Xmen did... but it still would have been nice to see them make the offer.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And last time I checked, they're required to have SOME form of evidence before they do so and don't tend to smash into other countries, announce that the civilians can go but they're going to find the people they want, smash anyone who stands in their way and oh, if the folk they want don't coimply they'll slaughter every man, woman and child in the country.


They have evidence. Stark confessed to the exile right at the beginning. Whether he intended the shuttle to blow up or not doesn't really matter (until they reveal a third party responsible).

And countries have always made vague threats in times of war to ensure they get what they want. You're stretching it when you say that Hulk intended to kill the entire world, when he has one of the people he wants in his hand, and that person is still alive.

[myslead]

What i dont get is that if Stark and crew didtn' send Hulk away, he'd never have been to Sakaar in the first place, so whats up with people saying "he's a ruler so he can come smash earth".

Thats a terrible argument.

that goes both way, because if Stark and crew wouldn't have send him away, he wouldn't have faced that terrible event of his wife dying in his arm ... thus making him ANGRY and coming back to earth.

[Magneto Rocks]

They have evidence. Stark confessed to the exile right at the beginning. Whether he intended the shuttle to blow up or not doesn't really matter (until they reveal a third party responsible).

Yes t does.

It very MUCH matters.

It INCREDIBLY matters. It's the entire main point of the crossover!

[XPac]

Yes t does.

It very MUCH matters.

It INCREDIBLY matters. It's the entire main point of the crossover!

I'll agree it matters... though I wouldn't say it gets the Illuminati off the hook either way.

[hyzmarca]

And last time I checked, they're required to have SOME form of evidence before they do so and don't tend to smash into other countries, announce that the civilians can go but they're going to find the people they want, smash anyone who stands in their way and oh, if the folk they want don't coimply they'll slaughter every man, woman and child in the country.

That's actually pretty standard and has been since long before the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand.

[DaeJi]

I'll agree it matters... though I wouldn't say it gets the Illuminati off the hook either way.

Well, the whole "blasting the Hulk off the planet" makes them jerks and earns them a lot of disrespect and very little trust (for a while), and the little hairs on the nap of their necks pulled out (that hurts!). They may have done it for the right reasons, and I still love them, but it still makes them jerks.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yes t does.

It very MUCH matters.

It INCREDIBLY matters. It's the entire main point of the crossover!

If you commit a crime, you're legally and morally responsible for all the bad acts that follow.

Period.

Barring third party involvement, it doesn't matter what Reed, Stark et all intended. As a direct result of their actions, a world was destroyed. Given the fact that what resulted was pretty much genocide, I can't say their punishment deserves to be any less damning regardless of their intentions in the matter.