Marvel hand-to-hand fighters rated...the way ought to be.

[crimson red]

Are you sick of top notch fighters getting wasted by someone they should be easily able to handle? I have been reading comics since the mid 80s and have seen so many discrepencies that it makes me sick. Here, I'll try to rate the best hand to hand fighters according to their capabilities. Of course, anyone can get lucky once in a while; here I am just ranking them according to the premise that if they were to fight, a higher fighter would win 70%+ of the time. I am not including anyone over around 10ton class...mostly including people who tend to use their skill over their strength. I am not going to state that one character is the "ultimate."

Will try to update and modify. I just wrote it one the fly so I probably skipped a lot of folks.

First tier-

Gamorra- Written properly, she would be the best fighter hands down. As one of the best martial artists in the universe, she is further endowed with superhuman strength, speed, and healing factor. Definitely top tier if not the best.

Karnak - The Inhuman martial artist with the ability to sense the weak points of his opponents and even physical structures. Superhuman physical attributes. Often written as a chump.

Mantis

Spiderman- It would be hard to argue that anyone has more potential than Spiderman. His agility is Marvel's pride. His spider-sense also gives him enough warning to avoid any attacks that he himself would not have detected. Coupled with his moderate super strength and flexibility (the fact that he is not bound to some form of art) he is definitely one of the best.

*note: often times, they try to make others look good by having the character beat Spidey...like Cap did in Civil War. There is NO way Cap can take Spidey...for all his training, CAP is at best peak HUMAN. Any attacks Cap throw, Spidey should have been easily able to counter. The only explanation is that Spidey was so awed by CAP he sabotaged himself; kinda like when George Saint Pierre fought Matt Hughes the first time in UFC.

Puma- Puma has been seen to be equal to Spidey in eveyway when properly written. Too bad he is a C character and usually comes out to get his ass whooped.

Black Panther- about the same as the above two.

Iron Fist- Iron Fist, though he was born a human, he is more than that by wearing the mantle of Iron Fist. His focus of his "chi" allows him superhuman feats which allowed him to fight Spiderman on equal terms.

*In the 80s, there was a comic where Iron Fist attacked CAP and CAP made Iron Fist look like a rank amateur. Poor writing..

Sabretooth/Wolverine and their relatives/buddies/copycats - Both possess superhuman level fighting abilities due to their mutant heritage. They have huge potential but their "wild" nature is both a curse and a blessing. Often times, they rely on their healing factor and rely on their wild techniques without too much technique. It sometimes helps them, it sometimes doesn't.

Moon Knight - I don't follow Moon Knight too much but written properly, he possesses superhuman traits during full moon.

Second Tier-

Here I rate fighters that do not possess "super" human traits.
* When i say "superhuman," I am only talking about speed, strength, agility,etc.- characters that affect physical fights.

Captain America- No one that is not superhuman should be able to take him down. Even superhuman level characters are often trounced by Captain America, which is totallly possible. He epitomizes the best of the race and often fights at a level much higher than expected. Cap would beat the snot out of Batman.

Shang-chi - Master of Kung-fu. Not sure how his mastery of his "chi" would affect his ability to perform at a superhuman level. We have been seeing this often overlooked character get some spot light in HFH... He even blocks a punch from Hiroim, a class 100 fighter... poor writing? hope he is not the one that dies in HFH 15...but props to him if he dies fighting Hiroim who has to power to go toe to toe with the Hulk.

The Cat- an equal to Shang-chi

Deadpool - He would be on top tier if it weren't for the fact that Squirrel Girl beat him.

Second tier-

Taskmaster- Able to mimic anyone's moves due to photo-reflexes. However, he is limited by his physical capabilities. Because he is not at "peak" human level, he will not be able to mimic Cap's moves that may require more skills than Taskmaster's physical limits would allow. Still he is one of the best human-level fighter.

Daredevil - Many writers write Daredevil as if he can take down anyone. It simply if not true. Over the years, he has turned into something like Cap/Spidey but with a darker side. However, many forget that he was a professional boxer. How many professional boxers do you see flipping off buildings and doing acrobatics. Oh well.

Bucky - Bucky's gotten a huge power-up lately when he came back as the Winter soldier, but he's still a notch under Cap.

Black Widow - Belongs in the tier with a whole bunch of others.

Elektra - a ninja master. Usually written to be belonging at this level. Definitely belongs here if you take into account she got killed by Bullseye who belongs at this tier.

Bullseye

Psylocke - similar to Elektra.

Third tier-

Black Cat

Batroc.

White Sable.

The girls from HFH.

Punisher

Falcon

Bottom tier-

Professor X

Hawkeye - I HATE how Hawkeye after coming back from the dead is portrayed as a top tier hand-to-hand fighter. He was always an archer who was not good at hand -to-hand fighting. Yeah CAP trained him and everyone else in the Avengers in hand-to-hand...doesn't make him as good as him.
The fact that now he is as good a fighter as any others in the New Avengers as Echo makes me sick. Iron Man offering him to be the new CA? PLEASE...he would get his @ss kicked by street thugs.

[Deadpooligan]

Spiderman- It would be hard to argue that anyone has more potential than Spiderman. His agility is Marvel's pride. His spider-sense also gives him enough warning to avoid any attacks that he himself would not have detected. Coupled with his moderate super strength and flexibility (the fact that he is not bound to some form of art) he is definitely one of the best.

Actually, by your logic, the Hulk is Marvel's best fighter, and always has been because he's stronger than anyone, which is simply untrue. Spidey's hand-to-hand experience isn't extensive beyond basic training from Captain America (if any).

Also, Captain America, Taskmaster, Shang Chi, Daredevil and Deadpool should all be in the top tier if you're going by skill alone.

Wolverine/Sabretooth are second tier. They don't really use that much martial arts anymore and Wolverine is basically a fighting joke now.

Hawkeye's second tier.

Who the !@#$ is Puma and why is he on this list? lol.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

The list needs squirrel girl at the top im afraid.

[crimson red]

Actually, by your logic, the Hulk is Marvel's best fighter, and always has been because he's stronger than anyone, which is simply untrue. Spidey's hand-to-hand experience isn't extensive beyond basic training from Captain America (if any).

Hawkeye's second tier.

Who the !@#$ is Puma and why is he on this list? lol.

That's what makes Spidey so good. He doesn't have a set discipline or training...he is highly fluid and dynamic in terms of his movements with no restrictions based on a set discipline.

On sabretooth/wolverine - yeah they get their asses handed to them by everyone. but my list is how it OUGHT to be. they belong in top tier.

If you think doesn't even belong on this list. I just put him dead last to emphasize that.

Puma is not used often by the writers, but anyone who's been following Spiderman for a long time should know him. He is like Batman and Iron Fist...a CEO of a big corporation who has a second identity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puma_(comics)

[Deadpooligan]

That's what makes Spidey so good. He doesn't have a set discipline or training...he is highly fluid and dynamic in terms of his movements with no restrictions based on a set discipline.

He can also throw Jeeps with relative ease. Dude doesn't belong here.

[crimson red]

He can also throw Jeeps with relative ease. Dude doesn't belong here.

Legit point. His strength level is at the whim of the writers.
In CA:Fallen Son, Spidey knocks out the Rhino, the same Rhino who tussles with the likes of Hulk, Thing, etc. Then in the latest Spiderman comic, he punches the Kingpin like 20 times in anger, a normal human being, and he is still standing...WTF writers!

[Capt USA]

in a hand to hand fight, I agree, cap has no chance against spiderman.... but to list iron fist ahead of cap is just pure silliness on par with listing deadpool as a good fighter. Deadpool couldn't fight his way against bucky outside of his joke of a comic book.

Wolverine doesn't belong top tier, and sabretooth listed anywhere on a list is pretty much a joke. Sabretooth Can't fight, at least since he became wolverines enemy instead of ironfist's, in most of his appearances he fights as if he was cap written by mark millar(otherwords as a complete and utter idiot)


Wolverine is clearly inferior to daredevil who is just as clearly inferior to cap. and iron fist belongs at best on par with daredevil and that is being nice.


top tier will always include captain america, taskmaster(and contrary to that ridiculous joke of a comic, taskmaster could take out deadpool, moon knight and psylocke??? psylocke, please get a tad serious, that would be like putting gambit on a list of competent fighters, with one hand tied behind his back and his eyes closed)


top tier
gamora(agree here)
spidey(due to spidey sense and reflexes)
taskmaster
cap
Black Panther


second tier
daredevil
shang chi
iron fist
elektra
bucky
wolverine(in that order)
black widow

third tier


fourth tier to emphasize they aren't really in the same tier as the others
Crossbones(more of a street brawler though than a martial artist)
Batroc (maybe higher, but due to crappy writing lately has dropped over the years)


fifth tier
moon knight
Punisher
hawkeye (and claiming hawkeye has never been portrayed as a good fighter completely and utterly ignores his history)
sabretooth(yea, sure whatever)
deadpool(that is being generous)

6th tier
gambit
black cat (where in the heck did she become a fighter?)
Rick Jones (who is probably talent wise a better hand to hand combatant than sabretooth, but doesn't have the healing ability, strength and idiot writers who seemed to think he is thing class level strength)

7th tier
puma(c'mon gimme a break about this guy, he hasn't ever done anything) being like batman doesn't mean you are as good as batman moon knight was marvels original copy of batman)

8th tier
psylocke (not similar to elektra) without her psychic powers she is just a girl that had a mind meld with a ninja.


Other guys not mentioned Triathalon, who is probably in the fifth tier
Bullseye who is about 6th level
mantis first tier probably ahead of cap.
moondragon probably about 4th(contrary to her claims to the contrary)
falcon on par with hawkeye, maybe a step ahead.
sharon carter a step ahead of falcon/hawkeye
Nick Fury, solidly second tier, behind black widow.
USAgent? top of the second tier, if not first tier. (yes, I'm not kidding, before training he went toe-to-toe with captain america for over half an hour, he curbstomped hawkeye)
Nightcrawler about 6th tier
longshot is probably the first to enter the third tier.

[Ben Morgan]

Taskmaster should be in the first tier, this is about their hand-to-hand abilities, in which Taskmaster is one of the best.

[Chiasm]

Whoa did I drift into the Rumbles board on accident?

Anyway, couple of opinions.

Wolverine isn't really that great hand to hand. His claws and healing factor make it so he doesn't have to be great at hand to hand. He just wades into the fight knowing he'll be hurt and knowing he'll heal. Take away claws / healing and he's just a strong thug without a lot of skill.

Spiderman gets by thanks to powers as well. He doesn't have a lot of skill.

When it comes to true hand to hand the top guys are clearly the guys who get by on skill and skill alone. Thus you have to consider only guys like Captain America, Shang Chi, and the like.

[Will.S]

in a hand to hand fight, I agree, cap has no chance against spiderman.... but to list iron fist ahead of cap is just pure silliness on par with listing deadpool as a good fighter.
Why do you say that?

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

if its about powers as well, as it has to be since you cant take them away, then taskmaster has to be one of the best as well as psylocke.

wolverine is overrated. He's easy to rattle and could go nuts on someone, an advantage most good fighters could take over.



Psylocke would beat elektra within an inch of her life with powers in like 2 seconds. No way in hell could the vast majority of people beat her in a straight hand to hand fight without some powers getting in the way. even without she still has all that assassin ninja training from the body swap in her head and kwannon seemed to be as competent as Elektra on her own.

i dont think its likely most could beat taskmaster in technique, if any. he would lose because his opponent is stronger or faster only


thats why these things never have a real answer. Not enough ground rules.

a no-power hand to hand thing would be more interesting.

how much of Panther or Cap'n fighting skills related to their "powers"?

Longshot would beat everyone with powers in play. He'd just get lucky


Except of course squirrel girl.

However even without powers squirrel girl would still be the top dog, since nutty pluck is comparable to batman prep time. Unsurmountable.

[Deadpooligan]

in a hand to hand fight, I agree, cap has no chance against spiderman.... but to list iron fist ahead of cap is just pure silliness on par with listing deadpool as a good fighter. Deadpool couldn't fight his way against bucky outside of his joke of a comic book.

Yeah... I'm guessing you haven't read one of several issues where Deadpool rumbled with Wolverine and made him look like a joke. Or beat Taskmaster manacled. Or impaled Bullseye with his own thrown object.

I don't want this to turn into a rumble, but you're putting him under the Punisher, Hawkeye, and Batroc for cheese sake.

Deadpool's top tier because Taskmaster admits DP's better than he is (be it the sheer randomness of his fighting or what). This has happened on more than one occasion.

Also, Iron Fist is far above Cap in terms of martial arts, period. There's no debating that. You're also highly underrating Crossbones, who can hold his own against Cap on Cap's best days.

[mattbib]

moondragon probably about 4th(contrary to her claims to the contrary)
I'd actually put her higher than 4th...probably 2nd.

Also, if we're putting Shang Chi in the 2nd, then I'd have to put Shen Kuei (The Cat) in 2nd also.

[crimson red]

You guys forget, this thread is about how it "OUGHT" to be based on the character's known capabilities/traning, and NOT how some writers just made them all powerful.

Based on that, as I have stated in the original thread, Taskmaster CANNOT perfectly mimic moves performed by super humans or even Captain America, who is peak human because his physical body is NOT CAPABLE.

For exmaple, If Spidey does three spins in the air (which no normal human could do), Taskmaster simply can't do it. It's physically impossible for his normal human muscles to do it.

And this thing about Captain America being the best if you only take into account fighting skills, that is a bunch of crock too. He is a great fighter because he performs at a peak level. Heck he didn't even start training until at least around 20years old...before the super soldier serum he was a geek. And correctly me if I am wrong, I cannot find him training with many different teachers...seems like shortly after the serum, he just appeared onto the scene fully trained.

Cap's "magical" skills do not compare to life-long Kung-fu training of Iron fist or Shang-chi.

Puma 7th tier? please go read some comic books. Spiderman/Puma/Black Panther...these guys are all similar in their power/speed/senses

I will add people I forgot to list, such as Deadpool, Cat, etc

[Ben Morgan]

Yes Taskmaster can, "His body automatically adjusts to perform the task. He can also perform at enhanced speed by watching the sequence fast-forwarded."

[allwins858]

You guys forget, this thread is about how it "OUGHT" to be based on the character's known capabilities/traning, and NOT how some writers just made them all powerful.

Based on that, as I have stated in the original thread, Taskmaster CANNOT perfectly mimic moves performed by super humans or even Captain America, who is peak human because his physical body is NOT CAPABLE.

For exmaple, If Spidey does three spins in the air (which no normal human could do), Taskmaster simply can't do it. It's physically impossible for his normal human muscles to do it.

And this thing about Captain America being the best if you only take into account fighting skills, that is a bunch of crock too. He is a great fighter because he performs at a peak level. Heck he didn't even start training until at least around 20years old...before the super soldier serum he was a geek. And correctly me if I am wrong, I cannot find him training with many different teachers...seems like shortly after the serum, he just appeared onto the scene fully trained.

Cap's "magical" skills do not compare to life-long Kung-fu training of Iron fist or Shang-chi.

Puma 7th tier? please go read some comic books. Spiderman/Puma/Black Panther...these guys are all similar in their power/speed/senses

I will add people I forgot to list, such as Deadpool, Cat, etcHey Cap can beat Spidey because he is smarter. He already has beat him and will beat him when he comes back. He will use Spidermans "spider sense" to warn him of an attack that is not coming. Then BANG! ITS OVER!

[Peeps]

did i miss something where wolverines training in the ways of the samurai or his black ops days are just swept under the rug here?

[Kage Kisaragi]

Your lack of Cyclops is appauling. :)
His uncanny ability to outsmart as well as out maneuver characters like Wolverine means she should definitely have a spot here. Hasn't he mastered like 5 different fighting styles? I mean he doesn't have Superhuman strength or metal bones but I bet if he could fight someone who didn't have those qualities (or are invulerable) he'd have a pretty good showing if not a victory under his belt.

[TimmyTony]

Top Tier (just fighting skills)
Gamora, Iron Fist, Taskmaster, Echo, Captain America, Black Panther, Mantis, Moondragon, Shang Chi

Second Tier

Daredevil, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman (Drew), Black Widow, Elektra


Third Tier

Wolverine, Moon Knight, Black Cat

[Aubergine~!]

If it's just fighting skill we go by, I'd put Gamora on a tier of her own. She's great on a cosmic scale, the rest are good by Earth standards. Actually, on that note, Id throw Thanos in at the top tier, as he trained her.

Only earth based character I'd consider letting into that tier is Taskmaster, and that'd be veeeery iffy.

[crimson red]

did i miss something where wolverines training in the ways of the samurai or his black ops days are just swept under the rug here?

Well that is why he is top tier; but writers always seem to ignore his history and just write him up as a brawler with no skills. Heck he gets beaten by just about anybody nowdays...sad.

I keep hearing Taskmaster this Taskmaster that; If you consider only fighting skills, he is top tier. That's BULL; Taskmaster would have no fighting skills if it weren't for his photoreflexes. He doesn't train like the others...he freaking watches videos of other people. He theoretically should train so that his body is capable of doing the moves or he shouldn't be able to do them. If he watches someone do a full split, you think his muscle automatically turns flexible so he can do it? i think not. It only allows him to do what he is capable of...which is not even CLOSE to peak human like Cap.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

doesnt even matter if he can mimic someone perfectly or isnt peak human (and again most of the top fighters are only that way because of powers supplementing them, if you want to go pure powerless then that is something that can have a definitive answer.)


tactics dont enter much into a fight in a sense because masters are focused beyond though, masters act on instinct because they are trained to act fast

Like that bruce lee thing

Question: What are your thoughts when facing an opponent?
Bruce: There is no opponent.
Question: Why is that?
Bruce: Because the word ''l'' does not exist.
A good fight should be like a small play...but played seriously. When the opponent expands, l contract. When he contracts, l expand. And when there is an opportunity... l do not hit...it hits all by itself (shows his fist).
Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it



Plus with thought bubbles not being in comics so much, great tactical fighters never really have time to think do they? ;)

[Ben Morgan]

Well that is why he is top tier; but writers always seem to ignore his history and just write him up as a brawler with no skills. Heck he gets beaten by just about anybody nowdays...sad.

I keep hearing Taskmaster this Taskmaster that; If you consider only fighting skills, he is top tier. That's BULL; Taskmaster would have no fighting skills if it weren't for his photoreflexes. He doesn't train like the others...he freaking watches videos of other people. He theoretically should train so that his body is capable of doing the moves or he shouldn't be able to do them. If he watches someone do a full split, you think his muscle automatically turns flexible so he can do it? i think not. It only allows him to do what he is capable of...which is not even CLOSE to peak human like Cap.

Exactly, that's his power. And he does train, a lot actually.

[Constantinople]

Deadpool - He would be on top tier if it weren't for the fact that Squirrel Girl beat him.

Ok, let us see Iron Fist fight Squirrel Girl after having his chest blown out. Heck, Squirrel Girl is purely made out of plot armour, anyway. Deadpool is the best human fighter in the Marvel Universe. He should be at the top.

in a hand to hand fight, I agree, cap has no chance against spiderman.... but to list iron fist ahead of cap is just pure silliness on par with listing deadpool as a good fighter. Deadpool couldn't fight his way against bucky outside of his joke of a comic book.

You know nothing about the Marvel Universe.

fifth tier
moon knight
Punisher
hawkeye (and claiming hawkeye has never been portrayed as a good fighter completely and utterly ignores his history)
sabretooth(yea, sure whatever)
deadpool(that is being generous)

Oh, wow, you talk about ignoring history and you talk so badly about Deadpool?!

Ok, listen to this: You put Taskmaster in the first tier, right? Deadpool has beaten him twice. Once missing a finger and once with his hands tied together only because he wanted to prove he could do it. Oh, and he's beaten Batroc (Threw him out of a hotel window after hand-to-hand combat), nearly defeated the Punisher (Only nearly because the person who was paying him got killed and he couldn't be bothered to do it without getting paid) and it could be said that he defeated Sabertooth as well. (But Sabertooth will be alive as long Marvel is making money out of Wolverine, so go figure.) He's also had a few battles with other heroes, but plot go in the way, for example, Iron Fist and Daredevil. (In one of the Champions of the something crossover comics, he defeated Daredevil, but also met him during the Civil War)

Everyone in the Marvel Universe should count their lucky stars that Deadpool's too insane just to kill everyone. He's possibly the best fighter, but I guess that guys like Wolverine (who's powered by fanboys) and Captain America could beat him, but only on technicalities.

Edit: Also, Alex Hayden, aka, Agent X needs to be on there, somewhere. He's Deadpool's clone, but better with firearms.

Edit, Again: Sorry, forgot, he also took out the Rhino when Deadpool was reduced to 6-inches tall by some Pym Particles.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

I think the reason "comedy" characters like Deadpool and Squirrel Girl are basically dismissed and ignored in these polls and informal lists is precisely cuz they are widely seen as comedy characters.

If Deadpool and SG were written "seriously" (which would defeat the purpose, their goofiness is what is charming about them), I bet everyone would probably start including them in these lists...

[rwsmith]

Wolverine is definitely top-tier. Every single "power ranking" I've ever seen has his fighting ability listed at a Level 7, which is the highest. The only other people I can remember who were at Level 7 fighting ability were Captain America and Cable.

[marshal99]

Wolverine has his samurai training but what makes him so tough is his endurance , he has his adamantium claws and one swipe with those that make contact with anyone and they would be down for the count , add to that his healing factor and he's one guy that is very hard to put down.

Shang Chi has a lot of foes that are top class. The Cat has been mentioned but Taskmaster has beaten him before in a cage match.Moon Knight , on the other hand , was nearly killed by another one of Shang Chi's foes , Zaran the weapon master. Shortly after Zaran nearly killed Moon Knight , he was soundly defeated by Wolverine.
There's also Midnight Sun , fell to his death in battle against shang chi but was resurrected by the Kree and put into a new body , one with superhuman strength , agility , durability and reflexes and still retain his martial arts progress , i dare say is above and beyond anyone else on the list except maybe Gamora .

Moondragon is also an accomplished martial artists who had trained with the monks on titans , she has also beaten Captain America in HTH without using her telepathic abilities at all (although Cap at that time was weaken because his super serum in his blood was failing) and Moondragon has also apparently beaten Mantis.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Wolverine has his samurai training but what makes him so tough is his endurance , he has his adamantium claws and one swipe with those that make contact with anyone and they would be down for the count , add to that his healing factor and he's one guy that is very hard to put down.

Not that hard

Back in his mini by Claremont Miller he got beaten by, if i recall correctly, a decently trained flatscan with no real advantages.


He's easy to rile up. Then he loses.

[Expletive Deleted]

Back in his mini by Claremont Miller he got beaten by, if i recall correctly, a decently trained flatscan with no real advantages. If you're talking about Shingen, you're really selling him short.

[Jake V]

Not that hard

Back in his mini by Claremont Miller he got beaten by, if i recall correctly, a decently trained flatscan with no real advantages.


He's easy to rile up. Then he loses.

Wolverine later came back, fought him again, and killed him.

So it can go either way.


Earlier in that same story he fought a bear.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

well i mean no super powers or none of that captain america peak human stuff.

But i havent read that in forever so he may have had a ton of stuff that i dont remember.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Wolverine later came back, fought him again, and killed him.

So it can go either way.


Earlier in that same story he fought a bear.

Yeah but wolverine rarely has displayed that kind of calm recently. Now he just grunts and slobbers alot and attacks stuff



Fought a bear. Interesting as he himself is a bear.

[Jake V]

Yeah but wolverine rarely has displayed that kind of calm recently. Now he just grunts and slobbers alot and attacks stuff



Fought a bear. Interesting as he himself is a bear.

Yep, so in the story, the bear won.

Ponder that for a while!

[StoneGold]

Wolverine later came back, fought him again, and killed him.

So it can go either way.


Earlier in that same story he fought a bear.

How tough is it to fight a large, hairy, gay man?

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

depends on if he has an erection

If so, then i assume it would be much harder




see what i did there?


*high five*

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Why isn't Hulk ranked? Why is Xavier ranked? And honestly, Taskmaster should be able to give ANYONE trouble, no matter who they are.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

LMAO!!! at the bear joke :D

[theardri]

You guys forget, this thread is about how it "OUGHT" to be based on the character's known capabilities/traning, and NOT how some writers just made them all powerful.

Based on that, as I have stated in the original thread, Taskmaster CANNOT perfectly mimic moves performed by super humans or even Captain America, who is peak human because his physical body is NOT CAPABLE.

For exmaple, If Spidey does three spins in the air (which no normal human could do), Taskmaster simply can't do it. It's physically impossible for his normal human muscles to do it.

And this thing about Captain America being the best if you only take into account fighting skills, that is a bunch of crock too. He is a great fighter because he performs at a peak level. Heck he didn't even start training until at least around 20years old...before the super soldier serum he was a geek. And correctly me if I am wrong, I cannot find him training with many different teachers...seems like shortly after the serum, he just appeared onto the scene fully trained.

Cap's "magical" skills do not compare to life-long Kung-fu training of Iron fist or Shang-chi.

Puma 7th tier? please go read some comic books. Spiderman/Puma/Black Panther...these guys are all similar in their power/speed/senses

I will add people I forgot to list, such as Deadpool, Cat, etc

Point of order. Cap would be fighting using Combatives (a fighting system designed for soldiers) and in a real fight that would win every time. Kung fu (and other martial arts) is more for competition and not as pointed to being quick, nasty and getting the job done.

This however would be the real world, and not Comcis so like the thread it's pointless to argue

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

yes thats why martials arts were created

To compete.

Yep.

Not to actually fight or anything


Just to compete. Back in war torn ancient china or japan. Only to compete.

Like cheerleading competitions

Held on espn 2 B.C.


There is a difference between ritualized martial arts as an art form and martial arts as a fighting form.

[GozertheGozarian]

Mantis is definately top tier.

[sephirothskiller]

Point of order. Cap would be fighting using Combatives (a fighting system designed for soldiers) and in a real fight that would win every time. Kung fu (and other martial arts) is more for competition and not as pointed to being quick, nasty and getting the job done.

This however would be the real world, and not Comcis so like the thread it's pointless to argue

Point of Order. Much of the Combatives are derived from martial arts. Case in point being Chin Na, where every move is designed to either disable the opponents ability to breathe, their ability to have blood circulate properly, or to destroy ligaments and muscle fibre. That move where you clinch someone's neck with your arm from behind? The one that seals off a person's jugular vein and carotid artery? That's a Chin Na technique.

Also extremely deadly is Wing Chun, (originally developed by a Chinese nun or something.) Pretty sure its what Bruce Lee used as well. Need I go on into other brutally effective brand's of Martial art?


Spiderman is most assuredly not top tier. He has little training, and thus is reliant almost entirely on powers. As mentioned before, by this logic people like the Hulk would be the "best" fighters.


Wolverine wouldn't be a second tier fighter. The problem is that everyone just writes him as one. I believe this was addressed recently by an ed who said they noticed it as well, and he'd be getting back to form soon. (He did however, take out half of SHIELD, and beat both the Silver Samurai and Captain America subsequently (though the Cap fight was due to powers.)

Top Tier should be people like:
Wolverine, Cap, Shang Chi, Iron Fist,

[Xanrn]

God there ain't half some rubbish in this thread.

Black Panther on the same leve as Puma let alone Spidey? HAHAHAHA...

Please tell me your kidding, show me where Black Panther has thrown a jeep hundreds of metres into a 4th story window.

Black Panther is Captain America level.

Deadpool can fight, period.

Squirrel Girl is a joke character and should be ignored.

Taskmaster is not that good, he not the super-adaptoid or amazo.

Gamora and Mantis are cosmic characters.


Wolverine, Cap, Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Cable and Black Panther are the top tier.

This isn't DC, where characters can learn 600 martial arts but still have no "powers"

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

you cant ignore someone kicking up Thanos ass with kung fu alone.

[Trey]

Among non-powered humans, Frank Castle would beat the Sh*& out of anyone on Earth!!!! Seriously, Castle can take any martial artist because he can take a punch. And he's trained in all advanced military fighting. His hand to hand fighting was more prominent in the 90's series.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Castle would get murdered by Spider Man, Black Panther, Iron Fist, Taskmaster, Deadpool, Elektra, etc.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

castle is most likely to be murdered by heart failure at his age.

[marshal99]

Castle would get murdered by Spider Man, Black Panther, Iron Fist, Taskmaster, Deadpool, Elektra, etc.

Except when he's written by Ennis who would have his punisher roll over everyone else.

[sephirothskiller]

Among non-powered humans, Frank Castle would beat the Sh*& out of anyone on Earth!!!! Seriously, Castle can take any martial artist because he can take a punch. And he's trained in all advanced military fighting. His hand to hand fighting was more prominent in the 90's series.

He's below Cap level for sure. Therefore he's also below Wolvie level. Certainly below Shang Chi level... Has no powers either, so he's also below Deadpool and Iron Fist level.

No, Frank Castle really couldn't beat that many people. He would probably do okay in the UFC though.

[Bryson the Red]

Among non-powered humans

<_<
>_>
O_O

[Kage Kisaragi]

Among non-powered humans, Frank Castle would beat the Sh*& out of anyone on Earth!!!! Seriously, Castle can take any martial artist because he can take a punch. And he's trained in all advanced military fighting. His hand to hand fighting was more prominent in the 90's series.

yet he doesnt have the Iron Fist? heh. Nor is he a Shang Chi. Are you really sure about those fighting skills you claim he has. the guy is like 50 right? I don't really see him as a top contender fighting skill wise as oppose to most people who have been mentioned.

Also Black Panther + Armbar = Most powerful fighter on earth. He put down Silver Surfer, can you feel the pwnage here? I mean Surfer is like, everyones pet superhero, he can beat EVERYONE yet, BP paralyzed him with a grappling move. BP for President of the entire world, he can save us from anyone. lol.

[crimson red]

yet he doesnt have the Iron Fist? heh. Nor is he a Shang Chi. Are you really sure about those fighting skills you claim he has. the guy is like 50 right? I don't really see him as a top contender fighting skill wise as oppose to most people who have been mentioned.

Also Black Panther + Armbar = Most powerful fighter on earth. He put down Silver Surfer, can you feel the pwnage here? I mean Surfer is like, everyones pet superhero, he can beat EVERYONE yet, BP paralyzed him with a grappling move. BP for President of the entire world, he can save us from anyone. lol.


I'm sorry that was just piss poor writing. I don't care HOW much leverage or whatever Black Panther had, when your opponent is like a gazillion times stronger than you, it doesn't make a difference. Do you think Black Panther could have neutralized SS's strength with that hold if he had the strength of an ant? Cuz SS really wouldn't see any difference between Black Panther's strength and an ant's. BTW I am quite proficient at BJJ so I know strength matters.

[Froggy]

yet he doesnt have the Iron Fist? heh. Nor is he a Shang Chi. Are you really sure about those fighting skills you claim he has. the guy is like 50 right? I don't really see him as a top contender fighting skill wise as oppose to most people who have been mentioned.

Also Black Panther + Armbar = Most powerful fighter on earth. He put down Silver Surfer, can you feel the pwnage here? I mean Surfer is like, everyones pet superhero, he can beat EVERYONE yet, BP paralyzed him with a grappling move. BP for President of the entire world, he can save us from anyone. lol.
next time in BLack panther.............

[overcomebyfumes]

I'd like to see a Squirrel Girl / Gamorra cat-fight.

Just throwing that out there.

pax.

[bloodyarts]

Also Black Panther + Armbar = Most powerful fighter on earth. He put down Silver Surfer, can you feel the pwnage here? ...BP paralyzed him with a grappling move.
Because really, without that one move (and bad writing for plot's sake), BP is really the WORST fighter in the Marvel Universe. He shouldn't even be ranked here.

BP for President of the entire world, he can save us from anyone. lol.
Yup. Just like Batman.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Ahh don't be like that. I know all to well about BP's accomplishments in the marvel arts, I was just teasing though because I know thats a sore spot for a lot of people. :)

[_Jayme_]

Excuse my french but your list is bullsh*t. :p Puttin Punisher, Elektra and Daredevil near the bottom is basically backing up my original statement. Daredevil was created for that reason..most heroes have blasts coming out of their hands or lasers coming out their eyes...he was good with his fists and feet.

[Deadpooligan]

Because really, without that one move (and bad writing for plot's sake), BP is really the WORST fighter in the Marvel Universe. He shouldn't even be ranked here.

You've clearly not read Priest's tenure on that book.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

god Priest's panther was so friggin' good.

[brundlefly]

god Priest's panther was so friggin' good.

Word. Priest needs to return from hiatus and reclaim that book.

[XPac]

god Priest's panther was so friggin' good.

I was a fan of Priests BP.

But then again, his BP didn't have an armbar anywhere near as good as McDuffie's. (Wow... I never get tired of mocking McDuffie's armbar. For whatever reason, it just doesn't get old).

[overcomebyfumes]

Shouldn't Karnak from the Inhumans be up there on the list? Sure, he's usually written as a jobber, but if he were actually written as using his power correctly, he should be one of Marvel's top martial artists.

pax.

[bloodyarts]

You've clearly not read Priest's tenure on that book.
You clearly don't know the meaning of the word "sarcasm". :)

I was just joking. And while I haven't read every issue of Priest BP, I've read enough of it (Panther vs. Iron Fist, for one) and other BP appearances to know that this guy is definitely a great fighter, at least on par with Captain America, and that's saying alot.

[Slumber Hulk]

Crimson Red,

Pretty good list but you make the same illogical argument a lot of people do. You have to accept that Cap rocked Spidey, it happened in print, in cannon, during a major event everyone was meant to see.

But you seem dismiss things that conflict with your rankings as "bad writing." You must accept what actually happened as what actually happened.

My top tier is Cap, Wolverine, Tasky, Deadpool, Shang Chi.

[XPac]

Shouldn't Karnak from the Inhumans be up there on the list? Sure, he's usually written as a jobber, but if he were actually written as using his power correctly, he should be one of Marvel's top martial artists.

pax.

Once upon a time he would have been.

But I think his cred is basically gone at this point. If BP can one shot him with ridiculous ease, he doesn't belong on a top 10 list.

[spEEdy]

Yea..i started a thread like this a little while ago..
You may want to check what people had to say there..

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=171225

[Frank]

Shang Chi is like the son of freakin Fu Manchu, the original foreign mastermind. The only way Chi could have survived his training without being killed would have been to fight against every odds and become close to a perfect martial arts fighter.

He have the top spot.

I agree that Karnak should be in the greats, being not only a great fighter but can super-humanly pin-point the weaknesses in anything and beats it with a single blow. That makes him second in my "chart".

Cap is third because the guy fought Nazies and Hydra agents and countless others just by himself and his shield.

[Deadpooligan]

Shouldn't Karnak from the Inhumans be up there on the list? Sure, he's usually written as a jobber, but if he were actually written as using his power correctly, he should be one of Marvel's top martial artists.

pax.

Karnak also has the super-attributes of the Inhumans. He outclasses all these "street level" guys.

[EC1231]

You can't put taskmaster in the first tier, but not DP when TM admitted DP is just better than him.

[rZi]

Man-thing....he sets anything on fire right?

[EC1231]

Cap is a flawless street fighter right, or at least very,very technically sound right? If you've ever seen a technically sound boxer vs. a physically gifted & awkward boxer, a lot of times the technically sound boxer beats the specimen b/c he remembers the fundamentals. If you take Spidey's strength away, Cap should beat him 7/10.

Also, I remeber the Cat beating DP in DP & Cable series, so that puts him high.

And Cap can't be considered top-tier b/c his skill rank is at peak human level and it should be less than someone else at the same skill rank @ superhuman levels. So if Cap is 100% skill @ 100% human ability, he should be lower than Wolverine who is 100% skill @ 150% human ability (just a guess).

Iron Fist should be #1 b/c he's as technically sound as any one in Marvel, and he can channel his chi to increase his abilities & reflexes to superhuman levels. No one else has the mix of martial arts mastery & superhuman levels. Puma should also be highly ranked since he's supposed to be a near-perfect human who's been training most if not all his life, and then he has a cat form that enhances his senses near Daredevil's level, but he's faster, stronger, and more agile.

The way it should be (factoring in all abilities except super-strength & tK)

A rank:Iron Fist, The Cat, DP, Wolverine, Puma, Black Panther, Cap America, Spider-man, Shang Chi

B rank: Slaymaster, Task Master, Echo, Daredevil, Cable, Sabertooth, Bullseye, Elektra, Psylocke, Punisher, Cyclops, Storm, Callisto (these last 3 are between B & C rank)

C rank: Good people who aren't exceptional like Ben Grimm, Luke Cage, WW Hulk, etc.

[jefseg77]

On thing I have always disliked is how Cap is vastly overpowered. Yes, in this thread when it comes o skill he should be in the first or second tier, I agree with that.

However, in pratical purposes he should not be able to stand up to any of the superpowered foes or heroes. He is regualrly shown being able to hold his own with Spider-man, Thor, Hulk, Iron Man etc. I am sorry but peak human is still human I dont care how much heart or fighting spirit you have.

I also agree with the Deadpool defenders, he is one under rated badass in the Marvel U. Yes, Squirrel Gir beat him, but she is unstoppable, she took out Modok and Thanos in the same day. :)

[theardri]

yes thats why martials arts were created

To compete.

Yep.

Not to actually fight or anything


Just to compete. Back in war torn ancient china or japan. Only to compete.

Like cheerleading competitions

Held on espn 2 B.C.


There is a difference between ritualized martial arts as an art form and martial arts as a fighting form.

AND they depict MODERN martial arts in comics as oppsoed to ones that would work.

[theardri]

Point of Order. Much of the Combatives are derived from martial arts. Case in point being Chin Na, where every move is designed to either disable the opponents ability to breathe, their ability to have blood circulate properly, or to destroy ligaments and muscle fibre. That move where you clinch someone's neck with your arm from behind? The one that seals off a person's jugular vein and carotid artery? That's a Chin Na technique.

Also extremely deadly is Wing Chun, (originally developed by a Chinese nun or something.) Pretty sure its what Bruce Lee used as well. Need I go on into other brutally effective brand's of Martial art?


Spiderman is most assuredly not top tier. He has little training, and thus is reliant almost entirely on powers. As mentioned before, by this logic people like the Hulk would be the "best" fighters.


Wolverine wouldn't be a second tier fighter. The problem is that everyone just writes him as one. I believe this was addressed recently by an ed who said they noticed it as well, and he'd be getting back to form soon. (He did however, take out half of SHIELD, and beat both the Silver Samurai and Captain America subsequently (though the Cap fight was due to powers.)

Top Tier should be people like:
Wolverine, Cap, Shang Chi, Iron Fist,

True Combatives was derived and improved (Sykes, Fairbairn, then Applegate Nelson, Biddle etc) to work. Kicks aimed at real weak spots (knees) as opposed to impressive looking crap taht in the real world annoys more than hurts.

Wing Chun is NOT deadly.

I've trained a lot of eastern and western martial arts (boxing and Wrestling count guys) and Combatives ... I'd use Combatives in a real fight. I've learned from a student of Nelson and Fairbairns, not Lt.X either.

It comes back to Cap would have been trained in Combatives (and Boxing, wrestling) before he wend all ice cube. When he was defrosted he would have seen a lack of Combatives in the Military and a lot of Flowery generally useless stuff. Cap Might be a boyscout but he would have been trained (lets assume he is not using the shield) to go for the throat and end a fight right away, not do a pose. The "martial arts" character are mostly a reaction to the 70's onwards craze for eastern arts. There is a misplaced passion for whatever skills they are supposed to have being "the best".

Oh and people have mentioend the Punisher, assuming he was Vetnam era, he would have learned L.I.N.E. combatives in training. In a real fight he's got it right (use a weapon and end it) for who he is. None of this "no powers/weapons" stuff.

Logan can't be easily "disarmed" and his adamantium laced skeleton is not "off" so a punch from him is like brass knuckles.

This thread is turing into Matrix fan boy masterbation.

[theardri]

Among non-powered humans, Frank Castle would beat the Sh*& out of anyone on Earth!!!! Seriously, Castle can take any martial artist because he can take a punch. And he's trained in all advanced military fighting. His hand to hand fighting was more prominent in the 90's series.



AMEN (and I' not Christian)

Also Frank would not play fair, he'd bite, eye gouge, use a weapon, or just do an "indy" (scene with the guy with a sword in the First Indiana Jones Movie) and shoot them before they got close. His "power" is guns, knives, and other weapons.

[DattaBoy]

I must add that BP deserves to be there just for the fact that in his first apperance he outboxed The Thing. The same Thing that goes toe to toe with the Hulk and SS.

Iron Fist also needs to be there simply because he has the iron fist and not many people can mess with him.

[Trey]

I said among non-powered humans, Castle would shove a combat boot up they ass. Is Shing chi a superpower? If not, Castle would catch his flying kick and throw him out the window. Of course he can't take Cap, or Spidey.

He'd wup DD or any martial artist, Elektra too. Knocked out DD with one punch.
He could probably take Iron Fist too.

[Deadpooligan]

I said among non-powered humans, Castle would shove a combat boot up they ass. Is Shing chi a superpower? If not, Castle would catch his flying kick and throw him out the window. Of course he can't take Cap, or Spidey.

He'd wup DD or any martial artist, Elektra too. Knocked out DD with one punch.
He could probably take Iron Fist too.

What are you, dense? Are you retarded or something? The g*ddamn Punisher doesn't hold a candle to any of the fighters you mentioned. They're all brutally stomp him one on one.

[GozertheGozarian]

I said among non-powered humans, Castle would shove a combat boot up they ass. Is Shing chi a superpower? If not, Castle would catch his flying kick and throw him out the window. Of course he can't take Cap, or Spidey.

He'd wup DD or any martial artist, Elektra too. Knocked out DD with one punch.
He could probably take Iron Fist too.
You don't even know Shang Chi is the guys name and you put Punisher above him? Frank is the clumsiest child in comparison.

[Trey]

What are you, dense? Are you retarded or something? The g*ddamn Punisher doesn't hold a candle to any of the fighters you mentioned. They're all brutally stomp him one on one.

Reading is a skill. I acknowledge that he can't take powered heroes, but he beat DD, and He'd take any martial artist out there.

[Trey]

You don't even know Shang Chi is the guys name and you put Punisher above him? Frank is the clumsiest child in comparison.

Is he powered? if not Castle would shove a knife up his......

[Expletive Deleted]

I think we've veered far enough into Rumbles territory, here.