so has Tony and Crew been chewed over the dead planet thing

[IamtheRock3]

by any of there superiors

Sense their mistakes is partly what resulted in the war. Not to say Hulk taking it out on the Earth is Cool..but so far to to the public at large it look like they blew up a city. And reed and them aint denying it. I imagine congress finind out tony and crew having a secret society that ran big event, they be a bit worried

I be like if a General dropped a nuke on Russia by Accident and started a war. His butt be in trouble with his boss

Or other heroes be a bit worried

Only one that gave them grief was Ghost rider

[XPac]

by any of there superiors

Sense their mistakes is partly what resulted in the war. Not to say Hulk taking it out on the Earth is Cool..but so far to to the public at large it look like they blew up a city. And reed and them aint denying it. I imagine congress finind out tony and crew having a secret society that ran big event, they be a bit worried

I be like if a General dropped a nuke on Russia by Accident and started a war. His butt be in trouble with his boss

Or other heroes be a bit worried

Only one that gave them grief was Ghost rider

I can't imagine anyone bothering to do that to Tony and the Illuminati NOW... but when things calm down I'm sure plenty of people will have some questions for them.

[CMBMOOL]

I would wait until after WWH to see the aftermath of the Illuminati's decision to exile the Hulk. :D

[DaeJi]

So far they have a bigger fist to fry; that being to the Hulk. After that they may be some questions, mostly about what the hell they were thinking. Of course, Tony could just respond that they took on the task of making the really hard choices no one else wanted to/seemed to make. As much of an ass as the Illumnati have been, they haven't exactly been wrong on a lot of things... though kicking the Hulk off-planet may have been one of their dumber moves.

As for the bomb, only the Hulk and his Warbound seem to think that the Illumnati put it on the ship. Cho probably thinks they did too. But even though the world's heroes may be unhappy with them, I doubt they think that the Illumnati would every try something like that.

[IamtheRock3]

So far they have a bigger fist to fry; that being to the Hulk. After that they may be some questions, mostly about what the hell they were thinking. Of course, Tony could just respond that they took on the task of making the really hard choices no one else wanted to/seemed to make. As much of an ass as the Illumnati have been, they haven't exactly been wrong on a lot of things... though kicking the Hulk off-planet may have been one of their dumber moves.

As for the bomb, only the Hulk and his Warbound seem to think that the Illumnati put it on the ship. Cho probably thinks they did too. But even though the world's heroes may be unhappy with them, I doubt they think that the Illumnati would every try something like that.


Dont think even cho claiming they tried

but that was the result...it was an accident...accident that started a war. an accident they themselve arent denying

of course HOPEFULLY it will revealed they didnt have anything to do with it even accidently

[thronzeblast]

by any of there superiors

Sense their mistakes is partly what resulted in the war. Not to say Hulk taking it out on the Earth is Cool..but so far to to the public at large it look like they blew up a city. And reed and them aint denying it. I imagine congress finind out tony and crew having a secret society that ran big event, they be a bit worried

I be like if a General dropped a nuke on Russia by Accident and started a war. His butt be in trouble with his boss

Or other heroes be a bit worried

Only one that gave them grief was Ghost rider



Nobody has any prove that is was them who blew up the ship.

Hulk was ripping that ship apart when he first saw the video then when he landed the actually threw the whole damn thing at a couple of guards.The scientist on planet hulk was also messin with it and the last people to be inside it were meik and the brood lot's of suspects.


Well we did not see any response from the x-men about xavier being part of the group because the were to busy fighting the hulk.It does not look like shield would have had a problem with it from what dugan said to ironman before he left to fight hulk.We did see some responses from black panther about reed and from ironfist,and ronin about strange.

Tony is still director of shield when this is all over so make of that what you will.....

[ComicCollector777]

I'm thinking even if the shuttle was not rigged to explode, Tony & Co, could be held accountable for not "performing their work" with due care and diligence like the way some engineers can be sued for not building equipments properly - like real life.

[AllisterH]

I'm thinking even if the shuttle was not rigged to explode, Tony & Co, could be held accountable for not "performing their work" with due care and diligence like the way some engineers can be sued for not building equipments properly - like real life.

Could honestly be.

Except for a couple of things.

1. The Hulk was busting the entire damn ship apart. Remember, it landed on Sakaar BECAUSE of the Hulk.

2. He then threw part of the damn ship AT the guards.

3. The scientists of Sakaar were messing with it for months before.

4. The Brood and Miek were messing with it JUST before it blew up.

5. Bruce Banner is considered one of the 10 smartest beings on Earth. You mean, he never checked under the hood?

In a court of law, the Hulk has nothing to stand on.

[ComicCollector777]

Could honestly be.

Except for a couple of things.

1. The Hulk was busting the entire damn ship apart. Remember, it landed on Sakaar BECAUSE of the Hulk.

2. He then threw part of the damn ship AT the guards.

3. The scientists of Sakaar were messing with it for months before.

4. The Brood and Miek were messing with it JUST before it blew up.

5. Bruce Banner is considered one of the 10 smartest beings on Earth. You mean, he never checked under the hood?

In a court of law, the Hulk has nothing to stand on.

Yes, I agree with you but if anyone builds a ship that is meant to hold the Hulk, I repeat the Hulk, I suggest that they jolly well make the ship is durable, not just to CONTAIN the Hulk but to make sure he reaches his destination PROPERLY.

The last time I checked, it was revealed by Cho that Reed and Tony didn't even BOTHER to check if Bruce has reached his intended destination safely.

I mean, their plan to send the Hulk to a planet that the Hulk can live-out peacefully was brilliant but shouldn't they have made a "check-list". For example, ship durable? Checked. Hulk reached intended destination? Checked.

Besides, in real life engineers can be held accountable for not "performing due care and diligence in construction of buildings. I suggest you do research on that.

Besides if you READ all of posts, you should know that I have NEVER maintained that Tony & company are responsible for the shuttle explosion.

Court of law? Depends on whose law - earth's or Sakaars? XD That's why I'm stating that at least Tony and company are probably going to have a trial - a better deal rather than what the Hulk got - no trial at all.


Anyway WWH is just not about the Hulk, its like the "final arc" of CW where Tony and company "played God" and screwed-up.

[Magneto Rocks]

So it's like the fan arc of Civil War except of course that everyone from both sides is trying to beat the hulk except Hercules?

[ComicCollector777]

So it's like the fan arc of Civil War except of course that everyone from both sides is trying to beat the hulk except Hercules?

It indeed is because that what Marvel has mentioned and not everyone from both sides is trying to beat the Hulk. If you follow the Hulk comic, Hercs group is also trying to diffuse the situation.

[Hulk Strongest One]

Could honestly be.

Except for a couple of things.

1. The Hulk was busting the entire damn ship apart. Remember, it landed on Sakaar BECAUSE of the Hulk.

2. He then threw part of the damn ship AT the guards.

3. The scientists of Sakaar were messing with it for months before.

4. The Brood and Miek were messing with it JUST before it blew up.

5. Bruce Banner is considered one of the 10 smartest beings on Earth. You mean, he never checked under the hood?

In a court of law, the Hulk has nothing to stand on.

Yes, but a court is only as good as it's ability to enforce its laws and decisions.

I don't know if Hulk realizes he landed somewhere incorrect because of his own actions, but regardless, it would be 100% Reed and Iron man's fault, even if it were a "legal" action, and even if off-course. Similarly, they'd also be ethically responsible for all that antimatter powering the ship, even if it did escape only because of various damages along the way, intentional or otherwise.

"Oh, of course, it might get breached. But it should be safe indefinitely," Reed probably thought. "And we need to take that risk anyway..."

Fair enough. And the Hulk is here for payback.

[AllisterH]

Yes, but a court is only as good as it's ability to enforce its laws and decisions.

I don't know if Hulk realizes he landed somewhere incorrect because of his own actions, but regardless, it would be 100% Reed and Iron man's fault, even if it were a "legal" action, and even if off-course. Similarly, they'd also be ethically responsible for all that antimatter powering the ship, even if it did escape only because of various damages along the way, intentional or otherwise.

"Oh, of course, it might get breached. But it should be safe indefinitely," Reed probably thought. "And we need to take that risk anyway..."

Fair enough. And the Hulk is here for payback.

How so?

If Ford designs a car and I cause it to crash into Lake Ontario, the fact that the engine gets flooded is not Ford's fault. Neither is if there are any oil or gas that somehow escapes into the lake.

Honestly, I'm not seeign how Reed et al are responsible.

[XPac]

How so?

If Ford designs a car and I cause it to crash into Lake Ontario, the fact that the engine gets flooded is not Ford's fault. Neither is if there are any oil or gas that somehow escapes into the lake.

Honestly, I'm not seeign how Reed et al are responsible.

For one thing, the rocket blew up. If the car crashed into Lake Ontario and blew up due to a defect in the car, Ford could and would be held responsible.

For another, they put the Hulk into the rocket. That's like Ford putting a bear behind the wheel of a car before it crashes into Lake Ontario... yeah, the bear gets some responsibility but the people that put the bear in the car deserves some too.

[Magneto Rocks]

For one thing, the rocket blew up. If the car crashed into Lake Ontario and blew up due to a defect in the car, Ford could and would be held responsible.

Right. If there's a defect in the car. But not if someone else puts a bomb in the car.

For another, they put the Hulk into the rocket. That's like Ford putting a bear behind the wheel of a car before it crashes into Lake Ontario... yeah, the bear gets some responsibility but the people that put the bear in the car deserves some too.

Did the Hulk smashing even makje a difference though or was it just the vortex?

[XPac]

Right. If there's a defect in the car. But not if someone else puts a bomb in the car.



Did the Hulk smashing even makje a difference though or was it just the vortex?

This is an instance where it's tough to place real life accountability since there aren't too many real life comparrisons. But I think if you place a warp drive in a ship that's capable of destorying an entire civilization, then you do have some accountability for anything that does go wrong. Or maybe there was no warp drive in the show, I don't know...

Maybe the closest comparrison might be if a nuclear reactor blew up or something. Even if it was caused by sabotauge, if a reactor blew up killing an entire city the government would be held accountable. Maybe not entirely... but they would be to some degree since they have a responsibility in making sure that doesn't happen if you're dealing with something that dangerous.

[ivesaidway2much]

For another, they put the Hulk into the rocket. That's like Ford putting a bear behind the wheel of a car before it crashes into Lake Ontario... yeah, the bear gets some responsibility but the people that put the bear in the car deserves some too.
What the heck are you talking about? Yogi and Boo-boo were excellent drivers.
http://www.angelfire.com/az2/gamesgoneby/ricksimages/yogibear2.jpg
Although I guess technically they were a little smarter than the average bear. :D
Right. If there's a defect in the car. But not if someone else puts a bomb in the car.I doubt there was a bomb that powerful on Sakaar. If there was the Red King would have used it on the Hulk long before he got to the crown city. This is a guy who was willing to infect his own people with alien parasites on the chance they might kill his enemies, and when he finally lost he tried to destroy the entire planet rather than admit defeat. Restraint really wasn't one of his best qualities.

[Retrodork]

I think the repurcussions from the Illuminati's actions should haunt them for awhile. If I were Sue I'd divorce Reed's ass in a minute. The divide the events of Civil War caused and Reed's actions in it were grounds for a separation, if not an outright divorce, at least from Sue's perspective. Now she finds out Reed was involved in a secret organization that's been pulling everybody's strings since the Kree-Skrull war? AND was responsible for exiling the Hulk? I certainly wouldn't trust my spouse anymore if I found out all this stuff. What else is he doing and not bothering to mention?
I don't know how the fallout from WWH is going to affect the Fifty State Initiative or the Registration Act, but I doubt Stark will still be Director of SHIELD when its all over with. His maverick, unilateral actions (ie. with The Illuminati) without any consultation from the White House or any other legitimate governing body have resulted in disaster and exorbitant property damage, if not any civilian casualties (The war ain't over yet). I would think that there wouldn't be much trust towards Tony Stark at this point. I can see Washington considering him a political liability.
But then, that's just speculation. I'll read it and find out eventually either way.

[ddqfpluskick]

1 - Reed, Stark, Strange, and Blackbolt should be rewarded. The only beef I have with them is not coming up with a back up plan if they failed. I mean they made Earth a Hulk free place and certainly a lot less destructive. Yes he came back, but the illuminati should have planned for that.

2 - It's obvious that Hulk and his cronnies blew up the ship. Reed and Stark could come up with six differents ways for the ship not to get him back without blowing it up. After all every gadget has do not use outside of operational specs. If you power up a nerf gun and take out someone's eye you can't sue nerf. If you mess with something without fully understanding it, it's all your fault.

3 - As for super hero reaction. I think they should be made cause they weren't there. I think the illuminati should be expanded with more characters like Sue, Matt Murdock, Emma, Song Bird, and Howard the Duck.

[ComicCollector777]

For one thing, the rocket blew up. If the car crashed into Lake Ontario and blew up due to a defect in the car, Ford could and would be held responsible.

For another, they put the Hulk into the rocket. That's like Ford putting a bear behind the wheel of a car before it crashes into Lake Ontario... yeah, the bear gets some responsibility but the people that put the bear in the car deserves some too.

Yeah, that's what I meant with all my posts. If Reeds and company wanted to put the Hulk in a shuttle with GOOD intentions, then they should have made the shuttle more durable or Hulk-proof!

1 - Reed, Stark, Strange, and Blackbolt should be rewarded. The only beef I have with them is not coming up with a back up plan if they failed. I mean they made Earth a Hulk free place and certainly a lot less destructive. Yes he came back, but the illuminati should have planned for that.



Yes, I agree with you that it was a good plan and to a certain extent, I think the Hulk accepted it that's why he didn't accept the Surfer's offer to come home. Unfortunately, he cjanged his mind when the shuttle exploded.

The worse thing is that it seems that Reeds didn't even bother to check if the Hulk reached his intended destination.

Right. If there's a defect in the car. But not if someone else puts a bomb in the car.



Did the Hulk smashing even makje a difference though or was it just the vortex?

Yes, that's what I'm wondering also. My gut feeling is no. Because if I recall clearing that when the Hulk crashed landed on the alien world, Sakkar (spelling), there was "navigation error" on the monitor and with Reeds message playing on the background that he was going to a place when no one can harm the Hulk and the Hulk can't harm anyone.

I think that's why the Hulk is cheesed off...not just because of the exile but because Reed's message indicated that the Hulk was going to some place "peaceful"...shucks! It all makes sense now! No wonder the Hulk kept harping on and on that they wanted to kill him! :eek:

[ddqfpluskick]

Okay so maybe the illuminati shouldn't be rewarded by I still don't see the problem with their plan. After all the military and governement has been trying to solve the Hulk problem for years. Like I said the only problem I had is follow through on making sure the plan would work.

However I don't see a problem with the illuminati in general. If any thing it shows it works. The problems seem to arise when every member decided to do their own thing instead of act as a group. Stark starts arresting people left and right, Reed spends all his time building prisons, Namor starts unleashing hidden weapons on the public, Strange runs off, and mutants go neutral, and Inhumans go to war. If anything when Charles disappeared another muntant should have been brought in to take his place. If anything an expanded Illuminati with replacement members could be the alternative to the SHRA.

[Magneto Rocks]

I think the repurcussions from the Illuminati's actions should haunt them for awhile. If I were Sue I'd divorce Reed's ass in a minute. The divide the events of Civil War caused and Reed's actions in it were grounds for a separation, if not an outright divorce, at least from Sue's perspective.

Actually, by the end of Civil War she understood why he did it and sympathised, she just disagreed that he never told his family.

Now she finds out Reed was involved in a secret organization that's been pulling everybody's strings since the Kree-Skrull war?

Pulling everybody's strings? You mean Skrulls? Because he hasn't pulled her strings or anything. Well..... not gonna finish that thought. :P

but I doubt Stark will still be Director of SHIELD when its all over with

He will, we already know this.

[XPac]

Okay so maybe the illuminati shouldn't be rewarded by I still don't see the problem with their plan. After all the military and governement has been trying to solve the Hulk problem for years. Like I said the only problem I had is follow through on making sure the plan would work.



There are a couple problems with the plan.

Firstly, it's not lawful. Bruce Banner is a US citizen. If he commits any wrongdoings, he should be arrested and put before a court of law. For people to decide to act as judge and jury and decide for themselves to launch him into space isn't what I'd consider constitutionally appropriate.

Secondly, I'd argue it's immoral on their part. If they had just talked to Banner about it, the legal and ethical issues wouldn't be problems at all. But Tony was afraid Banner would say no, so he didn't bother. I'd argue that's wrong, especially if he is indeed their friend like they claim.

Lastly, Tony seemed to believe that it wouldn't work anyways (and he was right in belieing that) and Hulk would return. So at least from his perspectie, it was really just a waste of time.

[XPac]

Actually, by the end of Civil War she understood why he did it and sympathised, she just disagreed that he never told his family.



Pulling everybody's strings? You mean Skrulls? Because he hasn't pulled her strings or anything. Well..... not gonna finish that thought. :P




We'll have to wait and see.

I personally agree that there will be greater distrust when the Illuminti thing is revealed... from a writing standpoint it would be pretty darn anti-climactic if the secret comes out and everyone just kind of shrugs apatherically and moves on past it.

The hero community is already in a bad place on a personal level. They barely had a chance to heal the emotional wounds before all this stuff came out. I think there's further drama to me milked here, but time will tell.

[DaeJi]

Honestly, I think the rest of the heroes should just sigh, and get over the whole Illumnati thing fairly quickly. Not that they should let Tony and co. completely off the hook, but with so much going on I think it would make sense for them to just not care so much and focus on making sure that there are no more messes that the Illumnati caused that need cleaning up.

[ivesaidway2much]

Honestly, I think the rest of the heroes should just sigh, and get over the whole Illumnati thing fairly quickly. Not that they should let Tony and co. completely off the hook, but with so much going on I think it would make sense for them to just not care so much and focus on making sure that there are no more messes that the Illumnati caused that need cleaning up.The Illuminati are the direct cause of two seperate alien invasions, and they nearly destroyed the universe because they wanted the infinity gems for themselves. If I were a 616 Earth citizen, I'd be waaaayyy past sighing.

[DaeJi]

The Illuminati are the direct cause of two seperate alien invasions, and they nearly destroyed the universe because they wanted the infinity gems for themselves. If I were a 616 Earth citizen, I'd be waaaayyy past sighing.

Well yeah, people should be pissed at them, and royally so. But it would be nice to see some forgiveness in the Marvel universe, and fretting over the past won't really help anyone.

[XPac]

Well yeah, people should be pissed at them, and royally so. But it would be nice to see some forgiveness in the Marvel universe, and fretting over the past won't really help anyone.

Forgiveness is a process.

When one side apoligizes, admits to some wrongdoing, and earnestly tries to change, the other side will forgive.

Till we see one, we likely won't see the other.

[Retrodork]

That's precisely my point. If I were a citizen of the Marvel universe, I would be supremely pissed at these people. I would also examine whatever they say with a high degree of scrutiny and doubt. Committing a responsible act for a greater good is one thing, but the Illuminati has gone way beyond this. I no longer trust Reed Richards' character at all. In a ''real world' scenario, a strong woman like Sue wouldn't put up with that nonsense at all. She'd take him to court and get half his patents in the divorce settlement. But we all know that ain't going to happen because the FF is the 'family comic team' and nothing is going to disrupt that formula. She'll always forgive him. WWH will not be any different.
For myself, I can't stand to even look at a book featuring Tony Stark. The man has become a complete fascist in my estimation, all apologies to the Iron Man fans out there. I would love to see Nick Fury come back and boot his egotistical, elitist ass out. I think She-Hulk was right. This Machiavellian approach sounds more like something Doom might try, though the megalomania is obviously a lot quieter.
I completely understand the whole 'desperate times call for desperate measures' argument, but that's not enough in my mind to justify the extremes the Illuminati has gone to. I agree with the above statements that they should have had contingency plans in place in the case of the Hulk and they didn't. If they are going to take on such a huge role of responsibility, a secret one at that wherein they are going to assume that they know better than anybody else, then they should make damn sure all the bases are covered. And I don't believe they have. I simply disagree with them, the stands they've taken and the processes they've used. In my opinion, these are not the actions of heroes, but if you back their calls, fine. Debating the pros and cons of a fictional universe is great fun. But for me, I'd personally rather back guys like Cage and Spiderman.

[ShaggyB]

How so?

If Ford designs a car and I cause it to crash into Lake Ontario, the fact that the engine gets flooded is not Ford's fault. Neither is if there are any oil or gas that somehow escapes into the lake.

Honestly, I'm not seeign how Reed et al are responsible.

How bout Reed and Tony trick you into getting into the car, its driving itself to an unknown place, you break free but it causes the car to fall into the lake. the wildlife is all killed due to the fuel.

Whos fault is it. yours for breaking free and thus causing the crash or theres for putting you into the situation?

[CMBMOOL]

To me I would be a bit angry at Marvel for letting the Illuminati off the Hook at the end of World War Hulk. :evilangry

I would love to see how Tony and Reed will try to get out of this one, for if the Hulk doesn't judge them then the other heroes will especially with Reed and Tony's roles already strained . :evilsmile

[DaeJi]

I'm tired of all the hero vs. hero stuff already... the Illumnati should just admit their fault and say sorry, lay all their cards on the table and the heroes should forgive them and work to put things right again (not all of the heroes mind you, but most). I think if the Illumnati would just admit their guilt (except for Namor, who would probably feel that the other heroes should apologise to him for thinking he should apologise to them), things can begin to heal. Of course this would work if they aren't responible for the bomb, because in that case they have to be Skrulls or they are ruined.

[Kefky]

I'm tired of all the hero vs. hero stuff already... the Illumnati should just admit their fault and say sorry, lay all their cards on the table and the heroes should forgive them and work to put things right again (not all of the heroes mind you, but most). I think if the Illumnati would just admit their guilt (except for Namor, who would probably feel that the other heroes should apologise to him for thinking he should apologise to them), things can begin to heal. Of course this would work if they aren't responible for the bomb, because in that case they have to be Skrulls or they are ruined.

Well, marvel's been saying one of the main reasons why they did civil war was to being animosity back to the MU superhero community, so they're not just gonna take that way so soon.

I think the whole skrull business next year will do it, though.

[DaeJi]

Well the heroes don't have to all be on the same wave-lenght, but at least there was some sort of respect and trust, and no one really feared each other.

[Mike Smash!]

How bout Reed and Tony trick you into getting into the car, its driving itself to an unknown place, you break free but it causes the car to fall into the lake. the wildlife is all killed due to the fuel.

Whos fault is it. yours for breaking free and thus causing the crash or theres for putting you into the situation?It's clearly the Hulk's fault. That's what a kidnapping victim deserves for trying to free themselves.

[CMBMOOL]

It's clearly the Hulk's fault. That's what a kidnapping victim deserves for trying to free themselves.

But didn't the Illuminati tricked the Hulk off the planet by using him ? :(

[Kefky]

But didn't the Illuminati tricked the Hulk off the planet by using him ? :(

Sarcasm detector off?

http://www.internerd.com/frinky/images/screenshots/sarcasmdet.jpg

[ddqfpluskick]

There are a couple problems with the plan.

Firstly, it's not lawful. Bruce Banner is a US citizen. If he commits any wrongdoings, he should be arrested and put before a court of law. For people to decide to act as judge and jury and decide for themselves to launch him into space isn't what I'd consider constitutionally appropriate.

Secondly, I'd argue it's immoral on their part. If they had just talked to Banner about it, the legal and ethical issues wouldn't be problems at all. But Tony was afraid Banner would say no, so he didn't bother. I'd argue that's wrong, especially if he is indeed their friend like they claim.

Lastly, Tony seemed to believe that it wouldn't work anyways (and he was right in belieing that) and Hulk would return. So at least from his perspectie, it was really just a waste of time.

Lawfull, so threatening a planet in order to get demands is lawful. Kidnapping people is lawful? I'm sorry, but the hypocrasy fariy around.

First any trial would have resulted in Bruce a) death sentence b) jail c) institution. Fact is the illuminati did the most human thing possible. Beside the wrong turn in space the plan should have been perfect. I mean the military is trying to kill him and he illuminati is just exiled him for life. Yeah it's so immoral.

Tony's statement clearly showed that they half hearted their plans. So if they followed through then maybe things would have worked for the best.

http://shortpacked.com/d/20070620.html

Read and learn.

[ivesaidway2much]

I'm tired of all the hero vs. hero stuff already... the Illumnati should just admit their fault and say sorry, lay all their cards on the table and the heroes should forgive them and work to put things right again (not all of the heroes mind you, but most). I think if the Illumnati would just admit their guilt (except for Namor, who would probably feel that the other heroes should apologise to him for thinking he should apologise to them), things can begin to heal. Of course this would work if they aren't responible for the bomb, because in that case they have to be Skrulls or they are ruined.I'm curious. If I'm not mistaken you're of the opinion that the Hulk has killed people on his rampages. Why do you think the Illuminati would be ruined if they killed people?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Lawfull, so threatening a planet in order to get demands is lawful. Kidnapping people is lawful? I'm sorry, but the hypocrasy fariy around.

First any trial would have resulted in Bruce a) death sentence b) jail c) institution. Fact is the illuminati did the most human thing possible. Beside the wrong turn in space the plan should have been perfect. I mean the military is trying to kill him and he illuminati is just exiled him for life. Yeah it's so immoral.

Tony's statement clearly showed that they half hearted their plans. So if they followed through then maybe things would have worked for the best.

http://shortpacked.com/d/20070620.html

Read and learn.

Didn't Stark and Reed lead the charge in Civil War, on the basis that no hero, no matter how noble their intentions, was allowed to take the law into their own hands?

Moral or not, Stark et all are responsible for what happens as a result of their actions. Hulk's actions are in response to theirs, and it's hardly hypocrasy to seek justice for your people.

They made their bed. Now they get smashed in it.

[DaeJi]

I'm curious. If I'm not mistaken you're of the opinion that the Hulk has killed people on his rampages. Why do you think the Illuminati would be ruined if they killed people?

The Hulk killing people doesn't change his character. He goes on a rampage and knocks down buildings, and sometimes people die. I hold out the belief that many people have meet their end during the fights between super-powered beings. It happens, but it doesn't take away from them. But for Tony and co. to put a bomb of that magnitude on the Hulk's ship, a bomb far beyond what is needed to destroy that small ship, is cruel and heartless; a villain's move, not that of a hero.

[ddqfpluskick]

Didn't Stark and Reed lead the charge in Civil War, on the basis that no hero, no matter how noble their intentions, was allowed to take the law into their own hands?

Moral or not, Stark et all are responsible for what happens as a result of their actions. Hulk's actions are in response to theirs, and it's hardly hypocrasy to seek justice for your people.

They made their bed. Now they get smashed in it.

No they lead it on the belief that Superheroes have to stop being reckless and putting their own personal desires above the people's safety. Nobody profited from the Hulk trip, but people.

Second justice my ass. Hulk is out for revenge. Otherwise Chuck wouldn't be on the hit list. He had nothing to do with Hulk's exile. He is not taking the high ground on this one.

[The Cool Thatguy]

No they lead it on the belief that Superheroes have to stop being reckless and putting their own personal desires above the people's safety. Nobody profited from the Hulk trip, but people.

Second justice my ass. Hulk is out for revenge. Otherwise Chuck wouldn't be on the hit list. He had nothing to do with Hulk's exile. He is not taking the high ground on this one.

Exiling Hulk into parts unknown and never ensuring that he landed where he was supposed to isn't reckless?

And yes, at the moment it's justice, though the lines blur and likely will continue to. Taking Xavier isn't that unjustified. If a terrorist group caused a disaster in another country, all known members would be rounded whether they were involved or not and the matter would be settled by the courts later.

[Mike Smash!]

The Hulk killing people doesn't change his character. He goes on a rampage and knocks down buildings, and sometimes people die.It does change him and the other point is totally debatable.

Peter David, Greg Pak and a number of prominent Hulk writers go on the record and say that the Hulk's rampages result in property damage, but have never led to a loss of innocent life.

Repeating something over and over doesn't make it true.

[ddqfpluskick]

Exiling Hulk into parts unknown and never ensuring that he landed where he was supposed to isn't reckless?

And yes, at the moment it's justice, though the lines blur and likely will continue to. Taking Xavier isn't that unjustified. If a terrorist group caused a disaster in another country, all known members would be rounded whether they were involved or not and the matter would be settled by the courts later.

It wasn't recklees if you took the right precautions like escorting the ship there and making sure it got to the right spot.

First of Hulk is the terrorist. Anybody who use threats to make demands on government is not interested in justice.

[DaeJi]

It does change him and the other point is totally debatable.

Peter David, Greg Pak and a number of prominent Hulk writers go on the record and say that the Hulk's rampages result in property damage, but have never led to a loss of innocent life.

Repeating something over and over doesn't make it true.

He drops into cities unannounced and knocks down buildings. How the hell did that never kill anyone?! I swear, there must have been some good drugs involved everytime they said that. And how does the Hulk killing people change him? It's not like he has gone out of his way to kill anyone; hell, how many villains have gone to the good side? I can't.... that whole line of thought just seems like forced stupidity to me (I am not calling anyone stupid; however if I offend you by all means tear into me). The Hulk has really been every kind of character, from noble hero to rampaging monster to slick mobster to vengeful ruler. And one of these has knocked down a building.

[XPac]

He drops into cities unannounced and knocks down buildings. How the hell did that never kill anyone?! I swear, there must have been some good drugs involved everytime they said that. And how does the Hulk killing people change him? It's not like he has gone out of his way to kill anyone; hell, how many villains have gone to the good side? I can't.... that whole line of thought just seems like forced stupidity to me (I am not calling anyone stupid; however if I offend you by all means tear into me). The Hulk has really been every kind of character, from noble hero to rampaging monster to slick mobster to vengeful ruler. And one of these has knocked down a building.

The truth is that a LOT of heroes deal with property damage... it's hard not to when 95% of the action takes place in the middle of downtown NYC.

Common sense should tell you that PLENTY of people will die. But I think a lot of writers would rather use suspension of belief in saying that no one dies rather than having the majority of heroes in the MU deal with potentially hundreds of deaths on a month basis. It's just cleaner that way.

ANd writers have Slott have shown SHIELD agents behind the scenes evacuating civilians while the fights take place.

My stance on the issue is this... if a writer SAYS that people were killed, I'll go along with it because it makes sense. But if they're asking for a bit of suspenion of belief in a comicbook and saying people aren't dying by the dozens then I'm fine with that too.

[ivesaidway2much]

The Hulk killing people doesn't change his character. He goes on a rampage and knocks down buildings, and sometimes people die. I hold out the belief that many people have meet their end during the fights between super-powered beings. It happens, but it doesn't take away from them. But for Tony and co. to put a bomb of that magnitude on the Hulk's ship, a bomb far beyond what is needed to destroy that small ship, is cruel and heartless; a villain's move, not that of a hero.I hate to take this thread further off-topic, but since I already did, what the heck. How could killing a person, not change the character? Let's say we go back about 35 years or so. The Hulk is living out in the desert. He spends most of his time battling the army, fighting supervillains, or whatever. And then one day, for the very first time, in the midst of his rage the Hulk knocks over a building and kills some innocent people (e.g. a mother and her two kids). How is the character not fundamentally changed after that? Can you really still view him the same way you did before he killed those people?

[XPac]

I hate to take this thread further off-topic, but since I already did, what the heck. How could killing a person, not change the character? Let's say we go back about 35 years or so. The Hulk is living out in the desert. He spends most of his time battling the army, fighting supervillains, or whatever. And then one day, for the very first time, in the midst of his rage the Hulk knocks over a building and kills some innocent people (e.g. a mother and her two kids). How is the character not fundamentally changed after that? Can you really still view him the same way you did before he killed those people?

It depends on the situation.

If the Hulk is just rampaging for the hell of it, I'd think less of him. If Hulk is in the process of fighting some threat that would likely cause MORE damage had Hulk not been there to stop him, then I'd assume that's the unavoidable colateral damage that comes with the job.

The justifying thing about Hulk (and a lot of other heroes) is regardless of the damage they cause, odds are MORE damage would have occured if they had done nothing.

[Magneto Rocks]

I hate to take this thread further off-topic, but since I already did, what the heck. How could killing a person, not change the character? Let's say we go back about 35 years or so. The Hulk is living out in the desert. He spends most of his time battling the army, fighting supervillains, or whatever. And then one day, for the very first time, in the midst of his rage the Hulk knocks over a building and kills some innocent people (e.g. a mother and her two kids). How is the character not fundamentally changed after that? Can you really still view him the same way you did before he killed those people?

Well personally, I always assumed he did so I don't know what I would have viewed him like BEFORE that. It shocked me to discover there was even a debate.

[DaeJi]

It depends on the situation.

If the Hulk is just rampaging for the hell of it, I'd think less of him. If Hulk is in the process of fighting some threat that would likely cause MORE damage had Hulk not been there to stop him, then I'd assume that's the unavoidable colateral damage that comes with the job.

The justifying thing about Hulk (and a lot of other heroes) is regardless of the damage they cause, odds are MORE damage would have occured if they had done nothing.

And someone gets it. And like Mags said, I've always just assumed that people died during the Hulk's rampages. But it didn't really matter to me, since the writers never really went into that. And like I said, in so many ways there are more than one Hulk.

[ivesaidway2much]

Well personally, I always assumed he did so I don't know what I would have viewed him like BEFORE that. It shocked me to discover there was even a debate.That's a shame. I'd be curious to know how you would have viewed the Hulk before then.

[XPac]

That's a shame. I'd be curious to know how you would have viewed the Hulk before then.

At this point, you basically have to look at almost EVERY hero in the MU differently though. 90% of the MU was duking it out needlessly in the heart of NYC in CW7. So it's not just Hulk that we're forced to re-evaluate a bit. Heck, Hulk at least has an excuse... Banner can be fairly described as mentally ill.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It wasn't recklees if you took the right precautions like escorting the ship there and making sure it got to the right spot.

First of Hulk is the terrorist. Anybody who use threats to make demands on government is not interested in justice.


First, as we saw, they didn't take the right precautions. They didn't even realize that Hulk was lost until Cho pointed it out

Second, threats are made in the name of justice all of the time. If a government knowingly hides criminals/terrorists, threats of various nature have always been made, from invasion to sanctions.

The pursuit of justice doesn't always mean being polite, considerate and kind to animals, after al.

[ddqfpluskick]

First, as we saw, they didn't take the right precautions. They didn't even realize that Hulk was lost until Cho pointed it out

Second, threats are made in the name of justice all of the time. If a government knowingly hides criminals/terrorists, threats of various nature have always been made, from invasion to sanctions.

The pursuit of justice doesn't always mean being polite, considerate and kind to animals, after al.

Justice is about putting the greater good above personal needs. The Hulk's actions in no serve anyone, but himself. There is no justice in the Hulk's action. He shows up over New York demand people hand over five individual simply because I say so. Does he say why, no! Cause when you get right down to it what the illuminati did help the people of Earth more than anything the Hulk did. Xavier admitted that he had nothing to do with the Hulk's exile right to his face. Yes he said he would have supported some sort of time out, but didnt do it. It's like arresting a person for war crime who refused to kill baby Hitler when they can't time travel to do it in the first place. How does capturing Xavier help the people of Warbound? It doesn't. It doesn't help anybody, but Hulk's own selfish desire for revenge. I mean he's got the warbound fighting people who helped them. I mean without Hulk the whole planet would still be enslaved right?


So while yes the illuminati screwed up the idea is very sound. The reason I like them is they actually make hard choices. The only problem is Marvel keeps making them into strawmen so we can all point and go boo and evil.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Justice is about putting the greater good above personal needs. The Hulk's actions in no serve anyone, but himself. There is no justice in the Hulk's action. He shows up over New York demand people hand over five individual simply because I say so. Does he say why, no! Cause when you get right down to it what the illuminati did help the people of Earth more than anything the Hulk did. Xavier admitted that he had nothing to do with the Hulk's exile right to his face. Yes he said he would have supported some sort of time out, but didnt do it. It's like arresting a person for war crime who refused to kill baby Hitler when they can't time travel to do it in the first place. How does capturing Xavier help the people of Warbound? It doesn't. It doesn't help anybody, but Hulk's own selfish desire for revenge. I mean he's got the warbound fighting people who helped them. I mean without Hulk the whole planet would still be enslaved right?


So while yes the illuminati screwed up the idea is very sound. The reason I like them is they actually make hard choices. The only problem is Marvel keeps making them into strawmen so we can all point and go boo and evil.

How can you say Hulk's actions serve no one but himself when it was Stark et all's shuttle that blew up and destroyed their world?

I mean sure, Hulk's getting some gratifaction out of beating the snot out of them, but there's also that whole avenging his fallen world thing that you keep ignoring.

[XPac]

Justice is about putting the greater good above personal needs. The Hulk's actions in no serve anyone, but himself. There is no justice in the Hulk's action. He shows up over New York demand people hand over five individual simply because I say so. Does he say why, no! Cause when you get right down to it what the illuminati did help the people of Earth more than anything the Hulk did. Xavier admitted that he had nothing to do with the Hulk's exile right to his face. Yes he said he would have supported some sort of time out, but didnt do it. It's like arresting a person for war crime who refused to kill baby Hitler when they can't time travel to do it in the first place. How does capturing Xavier help the people of Warbound? It doesn't. It doesn't help anybody, but Hulk's own selfish desire for revenge. I mean he's got the warbound fighting people who helped them. I mean without Hulk the whole planet would still be enslaved right?


So while yes the illuminati screwed up the idea is very sound. The reason I like them is they actually make hard choices. The only problem is Marvel keeps making them into strawmen so we can all point and go boo and evil.

Hulk does mention why he's going after the Illuminati. He states what they did to him and his people.

But the funny thing is that the arguement about Justice and serving the greater good actually works against the Illuminati too. Despite all the damage Hulk has caused, he's done FAR more good than harm. And they know it. The guy has helped save the world and even the universe. So is sending him off into space Justice? Is it serving the greater good? I'd argue no.

And now Hulk is returning, and doing something arguably similiar. He's going to kidnap them the same way they kidnapped him. Is that Justice? Depends on what he ends up doing with them I suppose. Either way, can't say they don't deserve it.

[DaeJi]

For now on, I'm blaming Skrull manipulation. That way everyone wins.

[ddqfpluskick]

How can you say Hulk's actions serve no one but himself when it was Stark et all's shuttle that blew up and destroyed their world?

I mean sure, Hulk's getting some gratifaction out of beating the snot out of them, but there's also that whole avenging his fallen world thing that you keep ignoring.

A meteorite could have done the same thing. Warbound was on borrowed time. Plus it wouldn't have been his world if they illuminati hadn't sent him there.

[ddqfpluskick]

For now on, I'm blaming Skrull manipulation. That way everyone wins.

Yeah it would make comic book sense. Skrulls blow up warbound so Hulk comes back and takes out the supers leaving Earth defensless after Hulk takes off. Then the Skurlls invade.

[XPac]

Yeah it would make comic book sense. Skrulls blow up warbound so Hulk comes back and takes out the supers leaving Earth defensless after Hulk takes off. Then the Skurlls invade.

Technically the Skrulls have already invaded. So I don't know if Hulk showing up would be a good thing from their perspective.

[The Cool Thatguy]

A meteorite could have done the same thing. Warbound was on borrowed time. Plus it wouldn't have been his world if they illuminati hadn't sent him there.


Except that it wasn't a meteorite, it was a shuttle they prepped and launched into space deliberately. And simply because they indirectly freed the world from a dictator does not entitle them to commit genocide a few days later.

[Magneto Rocks]

Except that it wasn't a meteorite, it was a shuttle they prepped and launched into space deliberately. And simply because they indirectly freed the world from a dictator does not entitle them to commit genocide a few days later.

But... they didn't, And unless they specifically did, this continued attempt to insist it was their fault is riodiculous.

[ddqfpluskick]

Except that it wasn't a meteorite, it was a shuttle they prepped and launched into space deliberately. And simply because they indirectly freed the world from a dictator does not entitle them to commit genocide a few days later.

1 - no one know why the shuttle blew up

2 - Xaviar had no responsibility. If it hadn't been for that I can see the point. Hulk is just serving himself by going after people who did nothing but angered him personally.

[ddqfpluskick]

Technically the Skrulls have already invaded. So I don't know if Hulk showing up would be a good thing from their perspective.

1 - isolates heroes in one spot on one problem (diversion)
2 - weakens supers and thier leaders (SHIELD, Avengers, and X-men)
3 - Perfect ally (Hulk seems no longer care about Earth)

[XPac]

1 - isolates heroes in one spot on one problem (diversion)
2 - weakens supers and thier leaders (SHIELD, Avengers, and X-men)
3 - Perfect ally (Hulk seems no longer care about Earth)

I don't deny there aren't potential upsides to Hulks actions. But he's very powerful and random X factor in any equation. Unless they specifically factored into their plans (a possibility if one of the Illuminati were Skrulls I suppose), he could be just as much a problem for the Skrulls as the earth heroes.

[The Cool Thatguy]

But... they didn't, And unless they specifically did, this continued attempt to insist it was their fault is riodiculous.


They launched the ship into space illegally. Given their crime, all damages that follow as a direct result, are on their head, intended or not. It's really not that complicated.


1 - no one know why the shuttle blew up

2 - Xaviar had no responsibility. If it hadn't been for that I can see the point. Hulk is just serving himself by going after people who did nothing but angered him personally.

1) We know that shuttle never would have blown up had it not been launched into space illegally.

2) When a group commits a crime, all known associates are arrested and the exact matter of guilt is settled later. That's what's happening with Xavier.

[XPac]

1 - no one know why the shuttle blew up

2 - Xaviar had no responsibility. If it hadn't been for that I can see the point. Hulk is just serving himself by going after people who did nothing but angered him personally.

Since WWH:X-men is kind of a side story, I suspect that eventually Xavier and Hulk will come to some sort of understanding and part ways. Maybe I'm wrong... but if he's not seen in the main book I think Hulk will drop the Xavier issue and focus on the people that did wrong him.

[ddqfpluskick]

They launched the ship into space illegally. Given their crime, all damages that follow as a direct result, are on their head, intended or not. It's really not that complicated.




1) We know that shuttle never would have blown up had it not been launched into space illegally.

2) When a group commits a crime, all known associates are arrested and the exact matter of guilt is settled later. That's what's happening with Xavier.

1) And if the shuttle hadn't been sent there Warbound would be enslaved

2) No, associates are questioned not arrested and in no way does their association actually allow them to be arrested if they aren't involved in the act. Xavier answered all of Hulk's question and proved in no way was he involved with Hulk's exile.

[ddqfpluskick]

I don't deny there aren't potential upsides to Hulks actions. But he's very powerful and random X factor in any equation. Unless they specifically factored into their plans (a possibility if one of the Illuminati were Skrulls I suppose), he could be just as much a problem for the Skrulls as the earth heroes.

Only if they kept the secret of doing it. And if they didn't do it then the Hulk wouldn't really bother them.

[The Cool Thatguy]

1) And if the shuttle hadn't been sent there Warbound would be enslaved

2) No, associates are questioned not arrested and in no way does their association actually allow them to be arrested if they aren't involved in the act. Xavier answered all of Hulk's question and proved in no way was he involved with Hulk's exile.

1) So because it indirectly helped the Warbound, that gives them the right to commit genocide?

2) Associates are arrested if they were involved in questionable actions. Xavier was a member and would have voted to exile him, after all.

[XPac]

Only if they kept the secret of doing it. And if they didn't do it then the Hulk wouldn't really bother them.

But the thing is, they may HAVE to deal with the Hulk.

If the Skrulls are part of SHIELD or the hero community, then they may be forced to fight the Hulk since that's what SHIELD and the hero community right now.

And if they have designs on controlling earth themselves, they may not WANT Hulk going around smashing the place.

Again, he's this very powerful and dangerous X factor. Unless the Skrulls have his role planned out and have a way of dealing with the Hulk themselves down the line, he could be just as much a problem for them as anyone else.

[ddqfpluskick]

1) So because it indirectly helped the Warbound, that gives them the right to commit genocide?

2) Associates are arrested if they were involved in questionable actions. Xavier was a member and would have voted to exile him, after all.



For the most part the only thing that the illumanti did was neglegance.

Xavier wasn't involved in questionable action he wasn't even at the meeting period. Xavier in no way supported the exile at the time or had awareness of it until after the fact. So if Xavier wasn't involve then you can't really arrest him even if he agreed with the exile. Agreeing with an event the occured without your knowledge at the time and didn't involve you is not a crime.

[ddqfpluskick]

But the thing is, they may HAVE to deal with the Hulk.

If the Skrulls are part of SHIELD or the hero community, then they may be forced to fight the Hulk since that's what SHIELD and the hero community right now.

And if they have designs on controlling earth themselves, they may not WANT Hulk going around smashing the place.

Again, he's this very powerful and dangerous X factor. Unless the Skrulls have his role planned out and have a way of dealing with the Hulk themselves down the line, he could be just as much a problem for them as anyone else.

True, but it's all speculation on both our parts so who knows.

[The Cool Thatguy]

For the most part the only thing that the illumanti did was neglegance.

Xavier wasn't involved in questionable action he wasn't even at the meeting period. Xavier in no way supported the exile at the time or had awareness of it until after the fact. So if Xavier wasn't involve then you can't really arrest him even if he agreed with the exile. Agreeing with an event the occured without your knowledge at the time and didn't involve you is not a crime.

Their negligence and illegal actions resulted in the death of an entire world. Somehow, I don't think them shrugging and saying 'Oops' is justice.

And Xavier was part of the Illumanti. He could have exposed their actions at any time, but kept it secret. I'd say that's reason enough on Hulk's part to arrest him (bear in mind, the mini ain't over yet).