Gordon's home life...

[cowboyfunk]

I noticed in a recent preview of All-Star Batman and Robin that Miller portrays Gordon as having some marital difficulties. It appears that he doesn't speak with his wife. It also appears she is an alcoholic.

Is this just part of Miller's All-Star take or is he drawing from past material?

here's the preview:
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=121608

[Jack Zodiac]

New. Even Miller's Year One Gordon was a dedicated husband and father. I think it's more characterization in parody of his dark style and constantly flawed characters.

[Captain Jim]

He did have marital difficulties, however. His wife ultimately left him.

[cowboyfunk]

He did have marital difficulties, however. His wife ultimately left him.

I was not aware of that. Thanks.

[Jack Zodiac]

She did? I thought she died. Barbara, his first wife, I mean. I know Sarah died in "No Man's Land," but I was pretty sure his first wife died, too.

[Choppa]

I thought his first wife left him and took their son and moved away because he was having an affair with Sarah?

[Jack Zodiac]

I though he had an affair with his sister-in-law!

Oh my God, Jim, how "Jerry Springer" has your life become!?

[OverMaster]

I thought his first wife left him and took their son and moved away because he was having an affair with Sarah?

AFAIK it went like this: in Year One, Jim did have an affair with Sarah. The crooked cops found it out and tried to blackmail Jim with the info. Instead, Jim went and told his wife himself. they didn't separate, and patched up for a while, with Sarah being transferred out of town (I call that Mindy Simmons syndrome).

Some time later, Jim and his wife divorced. Smartly, Mrs. Gordon avoided the fate reserved for most expendable Batman supporting characters and left for Chicago/comics limbo with her son, leaving Babs with Jim. Some time later, Sarah returned to town, she and Jim restarted their affair, and they married.

And they lived happily ever after until the Joker killed her.

[witchboy]

Thanks OverMaster , that is helpful...but when during all that did he have the affair with his sister-in-law and possibly father Oracle ?

[Denny Colt]

I thought at some point, post-crisis, Babs had been retconned to be Jim's niece (which I always thought was dumb). Am I right to assume that this has been (thankfully) ret-retconned? (With or without super-punch?)

[Captain Jim]

I thought at some point, post-crisis, Babs had been retconned to be Jim's niece (which I always thought was dumb). Am I right to assume that this has been (thankfully) ret-retconned? (With or without super-punch?)

Well, you may not like the answer. She may be both. Supposedly she's the daughter of Jim Gordon's brother and his wife, whom Jim adopted after her parents were killed in a car accident. But then later on we find out that Jim had had an affair with his sister-in-law and that Barbara might be his natural daughter after all, through that affair.

Uh, you can thank Devin Grayson for that one (Gotham Knights).

[Rod G]

I hope that means that after Infinite Crisis,Barbara is once again Jim Gordon's biological daughter?

[witchboy]

I too hope that Babs is Jim 's biological daughter , the way she was always meant to be .

[Ms. M]

I'm surprised that no writer has thought of using Gordon's son in some kind of story. Wouldn't he be a teen by now? I'm sure they could develop some story showing him as a hero or a criminal type.

[The Zapper]

I'm surprised that no writer has thought of using Gordon's son in some kind of story. Wouldn't he be a teen by now? I'm sure they could develop some story showing him as a hero or a criminal type.

Joker did threaten Gordon's son right after he shot his wife. That's about all I can think of off the bat.

[Choppa]

I hope they just leave his son alone. The way things are going now he'll probably become some crazy supervillian.

[OverMaster]

Once, IIRC, it was hinted in the letter colums of Batman that, when Doug Moench asked Dennis O'Neil about the status of Gordon's son, O'Neil said he could be included in an upcoming Azrael storyline. But that never came to happen.

[Constantine Drakon]

Well, you may not like the answer. She may be both. Supposedly she's the daughter of Jim Gordon's brother and his wife, whom Jim adopted after her parents were killed in a car accident. But then later on we find out that Jim had had an affair with his sister-in-law and that Barbara might be his natural daughter after all, through that affair.

Uh, you can thank Devin Grayson for that one (Gotham Knights).

Wow. It's interesting that you misremember the story as being so negative about the Gordons. It really wasn't. Jim came off pretty well, and as for Roger, well, he was a jerk, but that was in-character for him.

The story simply stated that before she married Roger Gordon, Oracle's mom dated his brother, James "Jim" Gordon, and that he might be Barbara's real dad, but he was unaware of that.

And no, it's highly unlikely any of this has been retconned away. You need to understand that DC has long had extreme reluctance to say that anything in Batman: Year One is wrong. Going by Year One, there's no way Barbara could be Jim's daughter. Hence the Gotham Knights story - it was just about the only way to make her maybe Jim's kid without contradicting what Frank Miller had written. And I really do support that. I think it's better not to go deleting whole blocks of canon, popular or not.

[kalorama]

Maybe someone in the DC editorial office should have taken a moment to actually read and (*gasp*) edit Miller's Year One script before it went to press, thus avoiding the whole mess.

[Sean Whitmore]

New. Even Miller's Year One Gordon was a dedicated husband and father. I think it's more characterization in parody of his dark style and constantly flawed characters.

Gordon has a beer and cheets on his wife.


SEAN

[Captain Jim]

Wow. It's interesting that you misremember the story as being so negative about the Gordons. It really wasn't. Jim came off pretty well, and as for Roger, well, he was a jerk, but that was in-character for him.

The story simply stated that before she married Roger Gordon, Oracle's mom dated his brother, James "Jim" Gordon, and that he might be Barbara's real dad, but he was unaware of that.

I haven't read it since it came out, but I'm pretty sure it implied that Jim had an affair with her after she and Roger married. So, according to this story, Babs is his illegitimate daughter. Sorry, that's negative in my book.

[Denny Colt]

Well, you may not like the answer. She may be both. Supposedly she's the daughter of Jim Gordon's brother and his wife, whom Jim adopted after her parents were killed in a car accident. But then later on we find out that Jim had had an affair with his sister-in-law and that Barbara might be his natural daughter after all, through that affair.

Uh, you can thank Devin Grayson for that one (Gotham Knights).

Thanks, Jim. I appreciate you sorting me out. There's a lot that has happened during my 15 years away from comics!

[Denny Colt]

Oh, and one other question -- This is really digging deep into my memory banks, but I know that you'll know the answer, Captain, didn't Tony Gordon die in pre-COIE continuity? I seem to remember something about him either in Batman Family (or the Batman family issues of 'Tec) back in the 70's.

[kalorama]

Oh, and one other question -- This is really digging deep into my memory banks, but I know that you'll know the answer, Captain, didn't Tony Gordon die in pre-COIE continuity? I seem to remember something about him either in Batman Family (or the Batman family issues of 'Tec) back in the 70's.

Yep. Like you said, it was either in Batman Family or Tec, back in the Dollar Giant days. I believe Tony (Babs' brother) got mixed up with the mob somehow.

Although, if I remember correctly, the son Gordon had in Year one wasn't named Tony.

[Constantine Drakon]

I haven't read it since it came out, but I'm pretty sure it implied that Jim had an affair with her after she and Roger married. So, according to this story, Babs is his illegitimate daughter. Sorry, that's negative in my book.

Well, I'm afraid you're still not remembering it correctly. Sorry. I'm holding the comic in my hands, and that is not implied. Jim Gordon kept visiting Thelma and Babs, trying to sneak them money because his brother was having money problems and was too proud to accept Jim's help. It specifically states, and I quote "Barbara (Jim's wife) and I are happy to lend you the money. You just have to understand that it won't do any good unless Roger's willing to get his drinking under control-" (Roger's drinking is what eventually killed him, in the Batgirl origin this elaborates on).

There is no implied affair. In fact, Thelma is shown yelling at Jim for bringing up Roger's drinking, defending her husband angrily, not being affectionate toward Jim. As for the extent of Jim and Thelma's older relationship, and I'm quoting Oracle here, who got the information from an old letter of her mother's "It suggests... that Roger is not my biological father after all. It suggests that before my mother married my fa - before she married Roger, she dated his brother, James Gordon." skip some "I'm not sure I want to hear this" talk between her and Batman, and we get to "What does this say about the man I thought was my father, that he'd woo someone out from under his brother like that?" Jump ahead a bit and you get "you don't think he'd want to know?" "Know what? ... That this woman he maybe once loved chose to marry his brother even possibly knowing that she was carrying his child?"

That's the extent of it. An awkward attempt to find a way for Babs to be Gordon's biological daughter, possibly, but without contradicting Year One. No affair. Although Jim Gordon did have an affair in Batman Year One, which is probably one of the reasons his first marriage failed. If you're looking for someone to be annoyed at for making Gordon an adulterer, the person you want is Frank Miller, not Devin Grayson.

Edit:
And although I suppose it wouldn't hold up as proof that Jim doesn't know, in a court of law, there's a bit with Batman asking if Jim is aware that Babs might be really his. Babs replies that she's sure he would have said something when she was paralyzed if he suspected.

[OverMaster]

Although, if I remember correctly, the son Gordon had in Year one wasn't named Tony.

No, IIRC, his name is James Junior.

[Denny Colt]

Thanks, I had no idea what his "new" name was (I might have known, but have since forgotten), but I certainly remember Tony from the '70's.

Thanks again.

[Captain Jim]

Well, I'm afraid you're still not remembering it correctly. Sorry. I'm holding the comic in my hands, and that is not implied. Jim Gordon kept visiting Thelma and Babs, trying to sneak them money because his brother was having money problems and was too proud to accept Jim's help. It specifically states, and I quote "Barbara (Jim's wife) and I are happy to lend you the money. You just have to understand that it won't do any good unless Roger's willing to get his drinking under control-" (Roger's drinking is what eventually killed him, in the Batgirl origin this elaborates on).

There is no implied affair. In fact, Thelma is shown yelling at Jim for bringing up Roger's drinking, defending her husband angrily, not being affectionate toward Jim. As for the extent of Jim and Thelma's older relationship, and I'm quoting Oracle here, who got the information from an old letter of her mother's "It suggests... that Roger is not my biological father after all. It suggests that before my mother married my fa - before she married Roger, she dated his brother, James Gordon." skip some "I'm not sure I want to hear this" talk between her and Batman, and we get to "What does this say about the man I thought was my father, that he'd woo someone out from under his brother like that?" Jump ahead a bit and you get "you don't think he'd want to know?" "Know what? ... That this woman he maybe once loved chose to marry his brother even possibly knowing that she was carrying his child?"

That's the extent of it. An awkward attempt to find a way for Babs to be Gordon's biological daughter, possibly, but without contradicting Year One. No affair. Although Jim Gordon did have an affair in Batman Year One, which is probably one of the reasons his first marriage failed. If you're looking for someone to be annoyed at for making Gordon an adulterer, the person you want is Frank Miller, not Devin Grayson.

Edit:
And although I suppose it wouldn't hold up as proof that Jim doesn't know, in a court of law, there's a bit with Batman asking if Jim is aware that Babs might be really his. Babs replies that she's sure he would have said something when she was paralyzed if he suspected.

Thanks for summarizing the fuller story, which did indeed sound familiar once you did so. As I said, I hadn't read it since it first came out, years ago, and I didn't remember all the details. I'm not sure why we're "arguing" though. One way or another, it's establishing that Babs may be Jim's illegitimate daughter. I simply prefer the original version, in which Babs was simply his daughter, period. :)

[Captain Jim]

Yep. Like you said, it was either in Batman Family or Tec, back in the Dollar Giant days. I believe Tony (Babs' brother) got mixed up with the mob somehow.

Although, if I remember correctly, the son Gordon had in Year one wasn't named Tony.

Y'know, this question came up on this forum years ago. I have only the vaguest recollection of that story but, at the time, nobody else seemed to remember it at all. If anybody knows the title and issue number, that would be great.

No, IIRC, his name is James Junior.

And let me suggest a "Stan Lee" type of reconciliation here, as far as his name is concerned. Maybe his name was James Anthony Gordon, Jr. ;)

[witchboy]

I too prefer the original relationship between Babs and Jim , that she is his natural born daughter from his marriage . But only another Crisis can make that so again . In the meantime, having her be his biological daughter is a step in the right direction imo.

[Denny Colt]

Y'know, this question came up on this forum years ago. I have only the vaguest recollection of that story but, at the time, nobody else seemed to remember it at all. If anybody knows the title and issue number, that would be great.



And let me suggest a "Stan Lee" type of reconciliation here, as far as his name is concerned. Maybe his name was James Anthony Gordon, Jr. ;)

I am indeed satisfied! It brings to mind an old Sherlock Holmes continuity problem in which Watson's wife calls him James. Everyone knows, of course, that his name is John H. Watson. It was later suggested by Sherlockiana experts that the "H" must have stood for Hamish, the scottish variant of James. See, there's always a way out of continuity condundrums if we search long enough (no need for lazy retcons, in my humble opinion!).:)