WWE RAW Review: "The Faceoff !"

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The Good

The show starts as HHH's Motorhead theme "King of Kings" kicks off. Is he back so quick ? Nope...its the good ole fashioned heel swerve as its KING BOOKER !!

His royal highness is less than pleased as a pretender to his throne named "HHH" is returning using his moniker of a KING. How dare he ?!! Booker lays it down as he demands Trips end that NOW. Or suffer his Kingly wraith. Then he walks over to Jerry Lawler and asks as a small favor he stop referin to himself as a KING. Lawler says he will accept it but can't control the fans from chanting it. King Booker goes to far in asking Lawler to kiss his ring and gets told a royal NO.

Lawler and Booker have a great small skirmish to end this as I smell a quick 1 PPV fued between those 2 til HHH returns.

Ric Flair discusses the Lashley/Cena match at GAB as the WWE tries to make it Hogan/Warrior now. But lets be truthful...is Lashley even getting close to how Warrior got over at this stage ? And its pretty comical to see them trying this avenue now with the match. But hell they need something to sell it. If only Lashley had went over more than Umaga and Vince McMahon the last 8 months.

The 4 man IC Fatal Fourway starts as its Jeff Hardy/Shelton Benjimen/Marella/Regal involved. The pride of Italy gets knocked out 1st as Vince has deemed him a failure and his Mikey Whipreck push is over.

The next one to go is Regal sadly. I really wish he would have stayed and done a prim and proper IC Champion role. But instead its Hardy who finally beats Shelton with the crazy rollup pin.

Edge is on next commenting on Hogan/Warrior 2k7. In this Edge picks Cena too as the company pretty much is telegraphing their gonna put the title on Lashley , aka Warrior 2k7. I can only hope that like when King Savage screwed Warrior months later that King Booker has a hand involved in ending Warrior's 2k7 run.

Up next is a promo of Randy Orton and Dusty Rhodes in a heated promo from last week. Dusty dares Randy to a bullrope match and tonight Cody Rhodes makes his WWE debut. Orton warns Cody he's in for a hard lesson and to bring his old man. Because the LEGEND KILLER is gonna add another name come Great American Bash time.

Backstage Santino gets consuled by Maria who discusses the Transformers as some miracle. Message to WWE...what hurt Santino is you pretty much defied belief too much and asked fans to accept too fast. You had the perfect guy to try and make a Mikey Whipreck. You just ran it too fast and put a belt on him before fans could take to him as a loveable wannabe star.

Batista cuts his promo discussing Hogan/Warrior and picks...the Warrior for the win. Saying Cena's heart maybe strong but he is no match for the monster that is Lashley.

Cody Rhodes makes his 1st appearance and cuts his 1st promo. Its pretty solid for a 1st promo. You can tell he was nervous and all. But Cody accomplished something Gene Snitsky couldn't....fans actually popped at the end for him !

Randy walks out 1st and by god....Vince's order or decree that guys drop anything they are on seems to have landed hard on Orton as he looks pretty damn small now. Cody comes out looking like the 2nd coming of Ric Flair more than Dusty Rhodes.

I really enjoy how they booked Cody in this. He doesn't have the experince of a Randy who controlled and owned the match. He just walked young Cody thru it all and got the fans pretty hot against him. Wanting Cody to win...so bad ! But Randy's an evil f-cker. He mocks Dusty at ringside and takes special glee in nailing the RKO for the win on Cody.

Cody needs time to develope , to drop the Flair look and to develope his own personality on the mic. Time in OVW should help him. Because for every Dustin Rhodes and Randy Orton in this business there is a David Flair who pretty much sadly was pushed way too hard and soon.

Steve Austin picks the Champ to retain as the build to recreate Hogan/Warrior continues !

Melina has her new bodyguard and BFF , Beth Pheonix watchin her back tonight. Candice comes out with Mickie James and the finale sees Beth manage to help Melina score the win.

Mick Foley picks Lashley and does a fun pun Lashley at the Bashley. This people is the best of these segments to pick Hogan vs Warrior !

Sandman amazes me. He's never went over Carlito as far as a pure win matters. But he's won the fued so far getting DQ's. Thats pretty damn wild. Regal attacks as Hacksaw makes the save. I smell a tag match next week.

Bradshaw picks Cena to win as the odds favor Lashley now in this recreation of Hogan/Warrior. Cenamania has ran wild for 2+ years and now Lashleywarrior has arrived to stop it !

Mr.Kennedy annouces himself and his wieght at 244. The fans eat it up as Super Crazy gets punished for daring to hold back KKKKKKEEEEENNNNEEDDDYYYY!!!

Lashley and Cena are on their way to debate. Better pray Bobby can work a mic !

Lashley and Cena have their...debate . Its silly as Cena pretty much sells the match beyond his ability as fans are hot for him. Lashley tries dissin Cena as fans aren't into it. Poor Warrior he has no mic skills. Pity him. The show ends as Cena taunts Lashley holdin up the belt making him charge the ring as WWE security keep both men apart.

Well ...if Cena loses their f-cked judgin from this. Because Lashley makes Johnny Nitro look like HHH cuttin promos.

The Bad

Snitsky cuts a short promo before his match as the fans couldn't give 2 shits about him. Then he comes out , squashes Val Venis , makes every damn face he can and he still can't get a reaction from the fans. Wow....what made them think he was worth it when it didn;t click on ECW ?

These promos proclaiming Lashley as the "Uncrowned Champ" is pretty silly. Hey WWE...the guy jobbed to Randy Orton weeks ago in a tag match. Orton has the Uncrowned ECW title and will face Dusty Rhodes at GAB this weekend. See how uncrowned works...

OVERALL:**1/2 Outta 5. Not many good matches at all....and a build to Hogan/Warrior 2k7. One man shall win. One man shall fall. God help us fans if the wrong one loses.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Candice Michelle's entrance pop>>>>>>Kennedy's match and mic time. The crowd COMPLETELY no sold that dude. He's even worse than he was on Smackdown.

King Booker being fed to Cripple H is, of course, horrible business since King Booker is the only heel on Raw who gets constant top heel heat.

The IC title match was good. I would like to see more Regal/Benjamin interaction in a match though. The two best workers on Raw face to face.

Santino is probably gonna become a woman beater now that his push is officially over. Stupid move though since he should get kicked off of television.

All the guys making picks for the match? The only pick that matters is this...Lashley will be champion by Summerslam.

The Snitsky match was met with Rob Conway silence to the second power.

Melina vs Mickie. They were kind of off with their executions but TX loves Mickie and Candice remains one of the best sights on Raw.

Cody vs Blandy Boreton was a complete squash affair. Cody got in no offense. Crickets chirping at night got more reaction than that match even though the fans got loud for Dusty before it was said and done with.

Lashley/Cena faceoff? Cena continued to be Jericho/Rock-lite except extremely lame and off with his timing. Luckily his female fans will eat anything he has to say. Lashley went back to his OVW ways of being completely serious, wanting to get to business, and called Cena a "hype man". Turn Lashley heel and keep him JUST....LIKE...THAT. Lashley is gonna become champion....soon. And I can't wait.

BTW, Lashley was kicking Orton's ass clean on ECW before some unimportant tag match unclean victory for Orton took place.

[Super Macho Man]

I would've enjoyed that review a lot more if I had learned to read!

[Legato]

Candice Michelle's entrance pop>>>>>>Kennedy's match and mic time. The crowd COMPLETELY no sold that dude. He's even worse than he was on Smackdown.

King Booker being fed to Cripple H is, of course, horrible business since King Booker is the only heel on Raw who gets constant top heel heat.

The IC title match was good. I would like to see more Regal/Benjamin interaction in a match though. The two best workers on Raw face to face.

Santino is probably gonna become a woman beater now that his push is officially over. Stupid move though since he should get kicked off of television.

All the guys making picks for the match? The only pick that matters is this...Lashley will be champion by Summerslam.

The Snitsky match was met with Rob Conway silence to the second power.

Melina vs Mickie. They were kind of off with their executions but TX loves Mickie and Candice remains one of the best sights on Raw.

Cody vs Blandy Boreton was a complete squash affair. Cody got in no offense. Crickets chirping at night got more reaction than that match even though the fans got loud for Dusty before it was said and done with.

Lashley/Cena faceoff? Cena continued to be Jericho/Rock-lite except extremely lame and off with his timing. Luckily his female fans will eat anything he has to say. Lashley went back to his OVW ways of being completely serious, wanting to get to business, and called Cena a "hype man". Turn Lashley heel and keep him JUST....LIKE...THAT. Lashley is gonna become champion....soon. And I can't wait.

BTW, Lashley was kicking Orton's ass clean on ECW before some unimportant tag match unclean victory for Orton took place.


Booker getting buried is inevitable, you think HHH would let him get away of stealing his spotlight the way he did.;)

To lighten the Anti-Lashley rants I can say Lashley did one thing right during that debate at the end. He wasn't joking around like Cena was and he was all business while Cena was smiling and laughing the whole way through.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Booker getting buried is inevitable, you think HHH would let him get away of stealing his spotlight the way he did.;)

To lighten the Anti-Lashley rants I can say Lashley did one thing right during that debate at the end. He wasn't joking around like Cena was and he was all business while Cena was smiling and laughing the whole way through.

I was shocked he didn't smile. I was shocked....I was certain Lashley was gonna smile and blow his usual tough guy act he tries. Hell between Cena joking he did tell Lashley he was gonna bring his best. The segment had to end quick....since well once Bobby called him HYPE-MAN and the audiance started to turn....

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Yes...Lashley with the "Incredible Hulk" gimmick works. He has the look for it.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Yes...Lashley with the "Incredible Hulk" gimmick works. He has the look for it.

Paint him green and make him go.... LASHLEY....SAD. CENA MAKE LASHLEY....ANGRY!!! LASHLEY PUMMEL PUNY CENA.

Damn it....too bad Marvel would sue. It could work. Or hell...make Lashley talk to his hands , tie tassles around his arms and call himself Ultimate Lashley ! Its working for Jay Lethal.

[Super Macho Man]

Hey, Erik. You got some lashleyvideo footage from OVW?

Everybody keeps talking about how cool he was back on the training grounds.

[nervmeister]

Randy Orton (when prevented from maiming Cody): "HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!"

Creepy.

[marshal99]

Hey, Erik. You got some lashleyvideo footage from OVW?

Everybody keeps talking about how cool he was back on the training grounds.

There's only one video that was linked to a while back.

Blaster Lashley when he's a heel squashing Alexis Laree (Mickey James). He looks a bit like monty Brown. He shouldn't speak on the mic period.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni3wWLmlu7k

The guy "Seven" shown in that clip is now known as Kevin Thorn.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Hey, Erik. You got some lashleyvideo footage from OVW?

Everybody keeps talking about how cool he was back on the training grounds.

I got the whole 05 Heyman era on Megaupload somewhere. Been awhile since I saw that file though.

[Rattlehead]

What a horrible, horrible show that was. Once again they put together a half-assed card for the Great American Bash, the once proud and must-see WCW PPV event.

I'm loving the RAW crowds apathy for Kennedy, at least they know he sucks. It takes a lot more than yelling your name into a microphone to get over on the big boy show.

[titanfan]

Cody Rhodes makes his 1st appearance and cuts his 1st promo. Its pretty solid for a 1st promo. You can tell he was nervous and all. But Cody accomplished something Gene Snitsky couldn't....fans actually popped at the end for him !

Hey, remember when Gene Snitsky kicked the baby? Or when he read his poem at Edge/Lita's wedding, or when John Cena caught him massaging Tyson Tomko? He had heat! Just not in this silly, gross monster gimmick.

What a horrible, horrible show that was. Once again they put together a half-assed card for the Great American Bash, the once proud and must-see WCW PPV event.

GAB has always been one of the worst WWE PPV's to me, I don't expect this one to be much different. I think it's mildly interesting just because there's a chance a few titles could change hands (Cena/Candice/MVP), but that's it.

I wish more wrestlers would take a play out of Melina's playbook. She may not be the best worker, but I love that she uses her current arsenal of moves, but throws in new ones every time we see her. You can't accuse her of wrestling the same match over and over. (Which is easy to do given the limited time that the diva matches often have to work)

[Jamal]

The show starts as HHH's Motorhead theme "King of Kings" kicks off. Is he back so quick ? Nope...its the good ole fashioned heel swerve as its KING BOOKER !!

All Hail King Booker!!!

When the music started I rolled my eyes but then I thought, that would be funny if Booker T walked out and next thing you know here he comes. Talk about a mark out, I almost fell out of my bed laughing :p :D. I hadn't seen too much SD King Booker so I never realized how easy he can go in and out of character when he's ( fake ) mad. I hope that he doesn't get buried to bad by HHH.

Speaking of which, that Six Million Dollar Man promo was silly.

[BoosterBronze]

How in God's name does Vince has so much faith in Lashley as a star?

Cena may not be the best wrestler on the show, but he sure isn't the worst by far.

Lashley though, I think might be the worst talker on WWE programming right now. He makes Kenny Dykstra look like Dusty Rhodes. I change the channel the instant he gets a mic.

[nervmeister]

All Hail King Booker!!!

You pronounced it wrong. It's King BOOKEAH!

Speaking of which, that Six Million Dollar Man promo was silly.Agreed.

[Jamal]

You pronounced it wrong. It's King BOOKEAH!

Sorry I never learned how to speak proper english, I live in america...:p :p

J/K:D

[Erik Lehnsherr]

When people start thinking Kenny and Nitro have mic skills better than Lashley, you know things have gotten silly. Nitro is one of the most horrible mic presences in pro wrestling. And he'll prove that again tonight when he embarasses himself without a Melina to carry him.

[Young Avenger]

Agreed.

C'mon, hes going to be bionic HHH. With twice the burying power!

[Erik Lehnsherr]

It's official..Randy Orton's match with Cody was..in simple terms..a VERY ILLOGICAL move.

Let's get a word from Todd...


Randy Orton beat Cody Rhodes. Orton hit a clothesline, punches, the Garvin stomp, a power slam, a European uppercut, a back breaker and the RKO for the pin. He dominated basically the entire match with Cody only getting a few brief comebacks including a dropkick off the top. This was so stupid. I thought the whole point of the Dusty-Orton program was to set up the big debut of Cody to avenge his father. Instead, they debut this guy who has the potential to be a big star with no advance notice in a throwaway match and job him out.



Jeff Hardy won a 4 way match to earn an Intercontinental Title shot Sunday over Santino Marella, Shelton Benjamin and William Regal. Regal eliminated Santino with a knee very quickly. The heels worked over Jeff, who eventually made the comeback. He hit the twist of fate on Regal for the pin. Benjamin hit a blockbuster on Jeff off the top, but only got a two. Jeff executed a pescado on both Benjamin and Haas, but missed the swanton. He rolled up Benjamin shortly thereafter for the win. This was a good match that picked up at the end.

That's one more for the good guys....make Regal vs Benjamin. 15 minutes. Just give me the damn match.

[BoosterBronze]

When people start thinking Kenny and Nitro have mic skills better than Lashley, you know things have gotten silly. Nitro is one of the most horrible mic presences in pro wrestling. And he'll prove that again tonight when he embarasses himself without a Melina to carry him.

I agree Dyskstra and Nitro are not exactly stellar on the microphone, but I'd rather listen to either of them than Lashley

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Lashley didn't even say much. He made his point and got to business. I don't see how ANYONE could complain. He was going off on a rant like Cena was, which is what everyone wanted anyway. Still..despite all of this, I expect San Jose to cheer Lashley over Cena this Sunday, despite the comical promos he's trying.

[titanfan]

The promo was clearly written for Cena to carry it--that was smart.

However, Cena's dialogue was also so terrible, it just made the whole thing seem bad to me.

I know this has been said many times before--but just get Lashley a manager until he feels comfortable with himself.

[BoosterBronze]

Lashley didn't even say much. He made his point and got to business..

but even saying very little, Lashley managed to put me to sleep. It makes me long for the days of Goldberg's promos, and that's saying something. When Mark Henry cuts better promos than a guy who's mainevening, something seems wrong to me.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

When people start thinking Kenny and Nitro have mic skills better than Lashley, you know things have gotten silly. Nitro is one of the most horrible mic presences in pro wrestling. And he'll prove that again tonight when he embarasses himself without a Melina to carry him.

I agree Dyskstra and Nitro are not exactly stellar on the microphone, but I'd rather listen to either of them than Lashley

I haven't heard Dysktra talk any really. But he's showed some spark when he was in the Spirit Squad to get his push. Nitro hell...he's getting heat by just wrestling and beating guys. Once he gets more time and developes mic skills he'll be pretty solid.

It's official..Randy Orton's match with Cody was..in simple terms..a VERY ILLOGICAL move.

Let's get a word from Todd...

.

Cody Rhodes match was how I'd do it. Lets be honest....Cody isn't ready to beat Randy Orton or any WWE star at this point. Todd pretty much missed the point of the entire storyline to the point I wonder if he watched the same show everyone else watched.

The storyline is about Dusty Rhodes facing a young punk named Randy Orton. Randy insults Dusty as young Cody who doesn't have much experince steps up to battle. Orton puts a beatdown on Cody in front of Dusty to taunt him for this weekends matchup.

The entire storyline was to add heat to Dusty Rhodes/Randy Orton and give us a quick glimpse of Cody Rhodes as he's going to need time in OVW to learn and grow. Cody got fans on his side since he played himself as a young kid learning. The mistakes they made with Satino Marella didn't happen with Cody. Fans actually gave a shit in his match against Orton and wanted him to win.

Hell it worked so well it hooked someone online to believing it.

[Rattlehead]

Lashley didn't even say much. He made his point and got to business. I don't see how ANYONE could complain. He was going off on a rant like Cena was, which is what everyone wanted anyway. Still..despite all of this, I expect San Jose to cheer Lashley over Cena this Sunday, despite the comical promos he's trying.

The problem with Lashley is the fact that he sounds like a 2 year old little girl. It kind of ruins the whole "Domination" angle when you sound like Mike Tyson but aren't batsh!t insane like Tyson. All they have to do is give him a manager to be his mouthpiece, ala Heyman for Brock Lesnar, and the crowd would be eating Lashley up. As it is now, it's just pathetcially comical.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

but even saying very little, Lashley managed to put me to sleep. It makes me long for the days of Goldberg's promos, and that's saying something. When Mark Henry cuts better promos than a guy who's mainevening, something seems wrong to me.

Yeah..well Nitro, Orton, and HHH put me to sleep every time I see them. I can't even watch their segments or matches. That's why I record the shows so I can skip through such garbage. Lashley is gonna be on top for a long time and people are gonna have to get used to it, just like they all of a sudden have gotten used to Cena being legit during his overpush.

Mark Henry is a flat out joke that nobody really takes serious. Promos or not, Lashley is over and he's getting that title soon.

And Nitro gets the same amount of heat Snitsky does...ZERO. So that doesn't even add up.

Cody Rhodes match was how I'd do it. Lets be honest....Cody isn't ready to beat Randy Orton or any WWE star at this point. Todd pretty much missed the point of the entire storyline to the point I wonder if he watched the same show everyone else watched.

The storyline is about Dusty Rhodes facing a young punk named Randy Orton. Randy insults Dusty as young Cody who doesn't have much experince steps up to battle. Orton puts a beatdown on Cody in front of Dusty to taunt him for this weekends matchup.

The entire storyline was to add heat to Dusty Rhodes/Randy Orton and give us a quick glimpse of Cody Rhodes as he's going to need time in OVW to learn and grow. Cody got fans on his side since he played himself as a young kid learning. The mistakes they made with Satino Marella didn't happen with Cody. Fans actually gave a shit in his match against Orton and wanted him to win.

Hell it worked so well it hooked someone online to believing it.

Orton squashing a newcomer makes no sense. If he's "not ready", he shouldn't be on television but since he is, there was no reason to feed him to Blandy of all people. A heel trying to reinvent himself after failing over and over again. Cody is the guy they have hope in yet they bury him? It's illogical and shaky booking once again. Which, of course, is the calling card of Raw. And Cody/Orton match got less heat than that Kennedy match with Crazy. Which is literally impossible.

[titanfan]

Yeah..well Nitro, Orton, and HHH put me to sleep every time I see them. I can't even watch their segments or matches. That's why I record the shows so I can skip through such garbage. Lashley is gonna be on top for a long time and people are gonna have to get used to it, just like they all of a sudden have gotten used to Cena being legit during his overpush.

That's actually one good thing about Lashley being Champion--no 15 minute promos like HHH every week.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Yeah..well Nitro, Orton, and HHH put me to sleep every time I see them. I can't even watch their segments or matches. That's why I record the shows so I can skip through such garbage. Lashley is gonna be on top for a long time and people are gonna have to get used to it, just like they all of a sudden have gotten used to Cena being legit during his overpush.

Yeah if he's on top for a long time what are the odds people will actually stay and watch his matches ? Because months ago he was fueding with Umaga and the reports were many started leaving. This was him in the Main Event of a RAW.

Hell love him or hate him....John Cena at least has mic skills to keep a crowd and has at times used those mic skills to swing a hostile crowd to his side at times.


Mark Henry is a flat out joke that nobody really takes serious. Promos or not, Lashley is over and he's getting that title soon.

I pity him when he gets the title. He's exposed his weakness and the WWE isn't good at weaknesses. Once HHH returns , squashes Booker , he;ll get in the ear and claim Lashley's a failure and should job to him. Wait and watch...

And Nitro gets the same amount of heat Snitsky does...ZERO. So that doesn't even add up.

Are you serious ? Theres a don't give a f-ck aura about Snitsky thats lasted for months. Unlike the "We wanna see someone beat his ass good" aura Nitro has. On the 2 I'd rather watch the guy whose ass they wanna see get beat than the ..PISS BREAK time guy.

Orton squashing a newcomer makes no sense. If he's "not ready", he shouldn't be on television but since he is, there was no reason to feed him to Blandy of all people. A heel trying to reinvent himself after failing over and over again. Cody is the guy they have hope in yet they bury him? It's illogical and shaky booking once again. Which, of course, is the calling card of Raw. And Cody/Orton match got less heat than that Kennedy match with Crazy. Which is literally impossible.

Cody isn't ready unless you want a repeat of David Flair. I know you hate Randy but lets be serious. The match had tons of heat. We all saw it...Randy played his role well as did Cody. The kids not ready to be a legit guy right off the street. The fans rallied and wanted him to win. But his time isn't now. He's gotta develope and grow more.

They aren't gonna screw this kid up. They aren't gonna throw him in too fast and alienate the crowd like David Flair did. He lost but won some respect from the crowd. Because they know down the road he'll meet Randy and perhaps be better.

[nervmeister]

C'mon, hes going to be bionic HHH. With twice the burying power!All they did was delay him from bionically falling apart...... again.

[marshal99]

I haven't heard Dysktra talk any really. But he's showed some spark when he was in the Spirit Squad to get his push. Nitro hell...he's getting heat by just wrestling and beating guys. Once he gets more time and developes mic skills he'll be pretty solid.

I don't think Kenny has the voice , when he speaks , his voice is kind of whiny and immature which was fine for the spirit squad but not for anything else.

The problem with Lashley is the fact that he sounds like a 2 year old little girl. It kind of ruins the whole "Domination" angle when you sound like Mike Tyson but aren't batsh!t insane like Tyson. All they have to do is give him a manager to be his mouthpiece, ala Heyman for Brock Lesnar, and the crowd would be eating Lashley up. As it is now, it's just pathetcially comical.

I don't think Lashley sounds like a 2 year old girl , his voice is just too monotone , too dull & too softspoken. Not enough intensity , when he speaks out , it tends to deflat his image as the intense angry black dude because he sounds like a guy asking a date out on the prom , so soft spoken , too nice. He needs to add a bit of emotion , be a bit over the top and get his point across really agressively.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Yeah if he's on top for a long time what are the odds people will actually stay and watch his matches ? Because months ago he was fueding with Umaga and the reports were many started leaving. This was him in the Main Event of a RAW.

Hell love him or hate him....John Cena at least has mic skills to keep a crowd and has at times used those mic skills to swing a hostile crowd to his side at times.




I pity him when he gets the title. He's exposed his weakness and the WWE isn't good at weaknesses. Once HHH returns , squashes Booker , he;ll get in the ear and claim Lashley's a failure and should job to him. Wait and watch...



Are you serious ? Theres a don't give a f-ck aura about Snitsky thats lasted for months. Unlike the "We wanna see someone beat his ass good" aura Nitro has. On the 2 I'd rather watch the guy whose ass they wanna see get beat than the ..PISS BREAK time guy.



Cody isn't ready unless you want a repeat of David Flair. I know you hate Randy but lets be serious. The match had tons of heat. We all saw it...Randy played his role well as did Cody. The kids not ready to be a legit guy right off the street. The fans rallied and wanted him to win. But his time isn't now. He's gotta develope and grow more.

They aren't gonna screw this kid up. They aren't gonna throw him in too fast and alienate the crowd like David Flair did. He lost but won some respect from the crowd. Because they know down the road he'll meet Randy and perhaps be better.

People stayed and watched his ECW title matches. They stayed and watched him dominate Cena at Vengenace. They stayed and watched him main event Smackdown last year. Lashley is gonna be on top, no matter what.

Cena's mic skills work on kids and women. Doesn't change the fact that he has a backlash against him almost on a weekly basis.

If Khali can be champion, Lashley can be champion.

Nitro doesn't get heel heat just like Snitsky. Same thing.

Orton vs Cody had no reaction. At all. One of the most quiet matches I've seen all year.

[Arune Singh]

Orton vs Cody had no reaction. At all. One of the most quiet matches I've seen all year.

Except for the Cody chants, the pop Orton got and the reaction when Dusty got in there. It was a really good squash match and I'm hard as hell on Orton. Notice all the RKO signs appearing in stands again? Im not the only Orton fan anymore!

[Erik Lehnsherr]

The pop was at the beginning. Cody chants? When and where? Dusty got cheered at the end though.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Except for the Cody chants, the pop Orton got and the reaction when Dusty got in there. It was a really good squash match and I'm hard as hell on Orton. Notice all the RKO signs appearing in stands again? Im not the only Orton fan anymore!

It set up Cody very well. He was over matched. He was young and Jim Ross sold it as that. The fans came in....they chanted for Dusty and Cody at times when the kid rallied. What more does Randy have to do ? He worked a match that helped get the kid face heat. Yeah he lost...but that doesn't mean he won't be back down the line.

And theres no way Cody is ready. He's gotta develope some more. But give him a year or 2.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

People stayed and watched his ECW title matches. They stayed and watched him dominate Cena at Vengenace. They stayed and watched him main event Smackdown last year. Lashley is gonna be on top, no matter what.

His ECW matches were taped mostly before Smackdown. He main evented Smackdown ? I thought he had only gotten to the US Title level.

Cena's mic skills work on kids and women. Doesn't change the fact that he has a backlash against him almost on a weekly basis.

He has a backlash....more often than not when Cena has to...and his back was against the wall last year and all....he'd get booed. Then he'd cut an awesome promo spitting fire about walking into hell ...and swing the crowd on his side. Cena can cut awesome promos when he wants to. I just feel the last few months he realized....no ones good thats challenging him on a mic. Give him a King Booker or Ken Kennedy and the man will give us something.

If Khali can be champion, Lashley can be champion.

Khali is a last option Champion. Someone the E never really considered and will likely drop it in a month. Lashley is someone Vince fell in love with and even with evidence that the program has sucked the life force from Cena he won't stop it. Hell his own people question Lashley's push according to the Meltzer article.

Nitro doesn't get heel heat just like Snitsky. Same thing.

John Morrison draws heat that wanna see people kick his ass. Odds are people will watch to see him get his ass beat or pay to. Snitsky is the guy you'd more or less walk out on during intermission and go take a piss. Completely different levels of heat. One man gets booed and chanted "You Suck" and the other can't even get that.

Orton vs Cody had no reaction. At all. One of the most quiet matches I've seen all year.

How...you just said they chanted for Dusty in a previous post on here. There was no problems at all in this match. I can understand wanting the young future star to win his 1st match in. But he's not ready yet and needs his time to grow. He'll get the wins soon enough.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Back on Smackdown, when Mysterio was World Champion, they had alot of Smackdowns end with Lashley vs King Booker. He had alot of main events with Finlay too.

Actually when he does a promo, he gets booed harder. It worked this week in front of the mostly female/kids audience though.

Lashley was booked over Cena during his McMahon feud. He's company favored just like Cena is.

Nitro finally got a "YOU SUCK" chant tonight. Hooray for him. He's not consistent though. He's too unover. Like Kennedy.

They chanted for DUSTY after the match. They clapped there hands for Cody at one point during the match. The rest got no reaction in the least.

Here's Todd Martin's response to my email...

Thanks, Erik. The thing with the WWE pushing of big guys is that they aren't inconsistent or even illogical. What they do makes perfect sense in a lot of ways if you're living in 1987 and believe that the way to draw money is to push big guys rather than guys with talent. I wish someone could beat that mentality out of Vince, because it would not only be good for the health of the performers but also for business if they didn't do that.

Todd

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Nitro finally got a "YOU SUCK" chant tonight. Hooray for him. He's not consistent though. He's too unover. Like Kennedy.

Thats the 1st time I've ever heard the words that Kennedy isn't over. Considering how many love to boo or cheer the guy and how he seemingly has people echo yelling his name. Hell I bet Morrison wishes he was as un-over as Kennedy so he too can be a star like him.


They chanted for DUSTY after the match. They clapped there hands for Cody at one point during the match. The rest got no reaction in the least.

Come on....now. Me and Arune had to be watching the same thing. Hell I'm no major Orton fan but the guy managed to work that match out and had people wanting Cody to win.

[Cody H]

They clapped there hands for Cody at one point during the match. The rest got no reaction in the least.Why would anybody be interested in a match when it's played out as an Orton squash? Cody did as much as he could, really, but when the result is a foregone conclusion, there's not really any reason to care.

[Cody H]

And theres no way Cody is ready. He's gotta develope some more. But give him a year or 2.How is he not ready? He seems very comfortable, and especially articulate, on the mic. And being squashed by Orton hardly gives an indication of one's in-ring skill set.

And by the way, I'm only defending him because we have the same name. ;)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

How is he not ready? He seems very comfortable, and especially articulate, on the mic. And being squashed by Orton hardly gives an indication of one's in-ring skill set.

And by the way, I'm only defending him because we have the same name. ;)

I think his look has to change some. He needs to drop the Flair type tights , put on some pounds the legit way and develope a personality. It doesn't mean much he lost to Orton. It shows...he's a young guy who has a good future ahead.

Not many remember this...but when Dustin Rhodes 1st showed up . 1st annouced himself as being Dusty's son (and how rough was that then?) he lost a lot of matches to Ted Dibase when he was a rookie. By the time Dustin went to WCW in 1991/1992 he had developed his look...he put on some wieght and really became a good guy to watch.

[Cody H]

I think his look has to change some. He needs to drop the Flair type tights , put on some pounds the legit way and develope a personality.Fair enough with the look. Though I think the tights issue can very easily be remedied. And to be fair, we have no idea whether or not he has a personality, I think he should get the benefit of the doubt though.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Fair enough with the look. Though I think the tights issue can very easily be remedied. And to be fair, we have no idea whether or not he has a personality, I think he should get the benefit of the doubt though.

I've seen his intense look. Its pretty hardcore. He needs to step outside the shadow of his dad in essance. Dustin had it simple...he looked just like his father and spoke like him. Cody doesn't look or sound like him. So he's gotta develope his character and all on TV.

[Cody H]

I've seen his intense look. Its pretty hardcore. He needs to step outside the shadow of his dad in essance.That'll be much easier when his dad's not on T.V. with him. But getting some residual cheers from dad's glory? Sure, why not? For now...
Dustin had it simple...he looked just like his father and spoke like him. Cody doesn't look or sound like him. So he's gotta develope his character and all on TV.Hey, as long as the guy can string a coherent sentence together with reasonably believable emotion, he's head and tails above a good majority of the folks out there, so why not let the guy on T.V.?

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Thats the 1st time I've ever heard the words that Kennedy isn't over. Considering how many love to boo or cheer the guy and how he seemingly has people echo yelling his name. Hell I bet Morrison wishes he was as un-over as Kennedy so he too can be a star like him.




Come on....now. Me and Arune had to be watching the same thing. Hell I'm no major Orton fan but the guy managed to work that match out and had people wanting Cody to win.

If you were watching Kennedy the last 3 weeks, he's been pretty unover on a consistent basis. He got GREAT heel heat on his first promo though but since then? The crowds don't react when he's shown backstage and they sometimes don't chant that name thing when he does that too. His matches have no crowd energy in the least.

You and Arune were watching the same thing but I got it recorded and I've checked it out again. Even when I maximize my volume, the crowd is as quiet as it gets. Cody chants were last week. Not this week.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

That'll be much easier when his dad's not on T.V. with him. But getting some residual cheers from dad's glory? Sure, why not? For now...
Hey, as long as the guy can string a coherent sentence together with reasonably believable emotion, he's head and tails above a good majority of the folks out there, so why not let the guy on T.V.?

Theres a risk. Because David Flair could talk on a mic decently at 1st as well. But the whole thing ended up alienating fans to an extent as his ring work and charisma wasn't up to snuff. WCW should have let David develope in the Powerplant more. WWE has OVW and they can take their time with Cody and get something from him. He showed glimpses of what he can be...

[nervmeister]

John Morrison's voice sounds like a serial killer for some reason.

[JDogindy]

John Morrison's voice sounds like a serial killer for some reason.

More like a serial killer who can do ANYTHING!

Also, notice how in certain angles, Kevin Thorn looks like Michael Jackson :D?

[nervmeister]

Also, notice how in certain angles, Kevin Thorn looks like Michael Jackson :D?Nawwwwww. You're tripping. If that were true, I would've noticed it by now.

[JDogindy]

Nawwwwww. You're tripping. If that were true, I would've noticed it by now.

I swear to God that camera shot that looked up his chin before the bell rang made me consider it.

If I was able to get a still image from that shot, I'd probably prove it.

[Super Macho Man]

Lashley didn't even say much. He made his point and got to business. I don't see how ANYONE could complain. He was going off on a rant like Cena was, which is what everyone wanted anyway.
Exactly. Lashley calling Cena a "hype-man", you knew what he was getting at: He thinks Cena's just a chump who runs his big mouth too much. Lashley just wanted to fight and not talk.

If they kept up with this side of Bobby, there would be less issue.

[nervmeister]

I swear to God that camera shot that looked up his chin before the bell rang made me consider it.

If I was able to get a still image from that shot, I'd probably prove it.Well then, bring me that camera shot!

[clayholio]

I swear to God that camera shot that looked up his chin before the bell rang made me consider it.

If I was able to get a still image from that shot, I'd probably prove it.

It's the nose. I've noticed that he has a strange profile before, but I hadn't connected it to Michael Jackson. Although if Thorn came out and started doing the "Thriller" dance before dropping an elbow or something, it surely couldn't hurt.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

John Morrison's voice sounds like a serial killer for some reason.

More like a serial killer who can do ANYTHING!


HE'S THE LIZARD KING !!! He can do anything.....

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Why would anybody be interested in a match when it's played out as an Orton squash? Cody did as much as he could, really, but when the result is a foregone conclusion, there's not really any reason to care.

Which is why there was no logic to even booking that match.

[Royal]

Morella's Jujigatame sucks...

....and his kicks are crap. Sayama would have laughed his ass off with those kicks.

[Cody H]

Which is why there was no logic to even booking that match.Well, there was no logic in booking that kind of match. If he'd got an upset win, on the other hand.....

[Royal]

King forgot how a bullrope match works.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

what's unlogical about orton kicking dustys sons ass before a match against dusty on ppv sunday?? if orton had lost i fail to see how that would add to the build of the match. shit just having this fued is a step back from where it looked like orton was headed a few weeks ago.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Cody is supposed to be some new pushed midcarder according to Meltzer and others. Why is he getting buried for no reason? It's the definition of illogical in this business.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

Cody is supposed to be some new pushed midcarder according to Meltzer and others. Why is he getting buried for no reason? It's the definition of illogical in this business.

losing a match is not getting buried(despite what cm punk fans believe) especialy when you lose to a former champ who's been recently credited with taking out 2 top stars in the company. cody came out in better shape than RVD, HBK, and most likely dusty will on sunday.

"in this buisness":D you say it as if you're somehow involved.

[Royal]

Cody is supposed to be some new pushed midcarder according to Meltzer and others. Why is he getting buried for no reason? It's the definition of illogical in this business.

And I find it surprising that people still think The Product works on any form of "logic".

Randy has no cardio and Lashley has no "style" Steve. Style involves technique. Lashley has none. A freshman student from the 'Pit would kill Lashley.

[Cody H]

logic or not, buried or not, I don't think the way the match was setup (i.e., a vertible Squash by Orton) gave anybody any reason to care about it. If Cody'd got the upset win on the other hand, at least there would've been some pay-off. Orton would've been hella-pissed, it would've added just a little more sizzle to his massacre of Dusty this coming Sunday, and Cody would've likely got more reaction from the crowd. Everybody wins! People want to see Orton get beat, give them what they want, dammit!

[Royal]

"Catch As Catch Can" and "Sandman" should not be uttered in the same sentance.

Do you Fudge Popcles even know what farting Catch is!?!

It's all the shoot you don't do.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

logic or not, buried or not, I don't think the way the match was setup (i.e., a vertible Squash by Orton) gave anybody any reason to care about it. If Cody'd got the upset win on the other hand, at least there would've been some pay-off.

Orton would've been hella-pissed, it would've added just a little more sizzle to his massacre of Dusty this coming Sunday, and Cody would've likely got more reaction from the crowd. Everybody wins! People want to see Orton get beat, give them what they want, dammit!

but why would they be looking for payoff a week before the ppv??

now dusty's going to be pissed, and fans should have even more reason to get behind dusty. all the momentum randy has built in the last few months would've just been wasted on a RAW match, what point would there be for orton to take out RVD & HBK just to lose to cody rhodes a week before facing dusty on PPV?? if anythings going to go down with cody, orton should take out dusty this sunday and then give cody a win over orton at summerslam imo. hopefully that won't happen either.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Which is why there was no logic to even booking that match.

Well, there was no logic in booking that kind of match. If he'd got an upset win, on the other hand.....

what's unlogical about orton kicking dustys sons ass before a match against dusty on ppv sunday?? if orton had lost i fail to see how that would add to the build of the match. shit just having this fued is a step back from where it looked like orton was headed a few weeks ago.

Cody is supposed to be some new pushed midcarder according to Meltzer and others. Why is he getting buried for no reason? It's the definition of illogical in this business.

Considering that Cody its said storyline wise wrestled his 1st ever match he's getting buried now ? He lost his 1st match on WWE TV ever and he's buried ? He's being booked as a young kid who is learning the ropes. I can't see them letting him stick on the roster without time in OVW.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

losing a match is not getting buried(despite what cm punk fans believe) especialy when you lose to a former champ who's been recently credited with taking out 2 top stars in the company. cody came out in better shape than RVD, HBK, and most likely dusty will on sunday.

"in this buisness":D you say it as if you're somehow involved.

Unlike CM Punk's instance (Punk came in hot , ran over everyone) Cody was booked as having his 1st real WWE match ever. I can't see them letting him get the win either. He did enough to get the fans wanting to see him beat Randy Orton and hell...down the line the 2 will have more matches against each other.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

logic or not, buried or not, I don't think the way the match was setup (i.e., a vertible Squash by Orton) gave anybody any reason to care about it. If Cody'd got the upset win on the other hand, at least there would've been some pay-off. Orton would've been hella-pissed, it would've added just a little more sizzle to his massacre of Dusty this coming Sunday, and Cody would've likely got more reaction from the crowd. Everybody wins! People want to see Orton get beat, give them what they want, dammit!

I like Cody...I think he has some tools down the line and will be a good star for them. But hell...even I didn't think it would help him if he won the match. If he sticks without going to OVW I can see him on Monday cutting the promo that "I know I have things to learn in this business. Congrats Randy Orton...you beat me. But just know that was my 1st match. I will be better and when I do get better , I will be waiting to beat your ass !"

[Cody H]

but why would they be looking for payoff a week before the ppv??Why wouldn't they be? Why not add a little fuel to the fire. There can be more than one payoff.now dusty's going to be pissed, and fans should have even more reason to get behind dusty. all the momentum randy has built in the last few months would've just been wasted on a RAW match, what point would there be for orton to take out RVD & HBK just to lose to cody rhodes a week before facing dusty on PPV??Because with all of Randy's momentum, it would actually mean something. A little underestimating by Orton,a distraction by Dusty, and a roll-up win wouldn't really do much harm to Orton, especially if he were to say, murder Cody afterwards. Imagine Orton giving a beatdown to Cody while Dusty was forced to watch (stuck in the ropes or something, I don't know...), that would add a little fuel to the fire. And after Dusty gets mauled, you've got a nice comeback feud between Orton and Cody.

To me, the way things went the match was anticlimatic. They 'played it safe' and I'm quite sick of that.
I like Cody...I think he has some tools down the line and will be a good star for them. But hell...even I didn't think it would help him if he won the match.How wouldn't it help him?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

How wouldn't it help him?

Fans could be alienated. They could feel the kid really isn't that good right now and having him score upset wins over established stars like Orton so fast could cause them to hate Cody right off the bat seeing as how he's a new kid showing up. Instead they let Cody try and keep trying to beat Randy. The fans saw someone who wrestled his 1st ever match on WWE TV. He didn't come across as your standerd jobber. He just has things to learn and Ross kept pushing his in-experince across.

CM Punk was pretty much brought in as an established ass kicker. He came in with his vignettes and rolled. Cody showed up last week with his dad and is brand new to this business. Hell....the entire storyline reminded me of Dusty Rhodes/Ted Dibase when Dustin debuted and lost a few times to Ted when he was a rookie.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

Unlike CM Punk's instance (Punk came in hot , ran over everyone) Cody was booked as having his 1st real WWE match ever. I can't see them letting him get the win either. He did enough to get the fans wanting to see him beat Randy Orton and hell...down the line the 2 will have more matches against each other.

in any instance losing 1 match is not getting buried unless it's a squash match.

Why wouldn't they be? Why not add a little fuel to the fire. There can be more than one payoff.Because with all of Randy's momentum, it would actually mean something. A little underestimating by Orton,a distraction by Dusty, and a roll-up win wouldn't really do much harm to Orton, especially if he were to say, murder Cody afterwards. Imagine Orton giving a beatdown to Cody while Dusty was forced to watch (stuck in the ropes or something, I don't know...), that would add a little fuel to the fire. And after Dusty gets mauled, you've got a nice comeback feud between Orton and Cody.

To me, the way things went the match was anticlimatic. They 'played it safe' and I'm quite sick of that.
How wouldn't it help him?

because that's what the ppv's are for, what you just describes sets up the ppv to be the definition of anti-climactic. the whole fued imo is about keeping randys momentum going, they're not trying to resurrect dusty's career, and cody's way too green to go over orton and would be left w/o much more to do, orton & booker are the top heels on the whole damn show.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

"Catch As Catch Can" and "Sandman" should not be uttered in the same sentance.

Do you Fudge Popcles even know what farting Catch is!?!

It's all the shoot you don't do.

The Sandman pretty much admits he's no pro wrestler. He's there to drink beer , use the cane and be The Sandman. The moment they try and sell him as a pro wrestler then it gets silly. As silly as when WCW would protray him as Hardcore Hak.

[Cody H]

Fans could be alienated. They could feel the kid really isn't that good right now and having him score upset wins over established stars like Orton so fast could cause them to hate Cody right off the bat seeing as how he's a new kid showing up.Good point. Perhaps they were afraid he wouldn't get any sort of reaction? Ok, I can see that. It would be a risky decision, sure, but I wish they'd take more risks.

I'm still of the opinion that having him get the win would've been far more interesting though.

Things are far too predictable for my tastes. Now, I realize that when it comes down to it, wrestling is pretty predictable anyways, but everything is by the numbers these days. For a change, I'd like to tune into Raw and actually have something happen. Just... something... anything.Hell....the entire storyline reminded me of Dusty Rhodes/Ted Dibase when Dustin debuted and lost a few times to Ted when he was a rookie.Now Super... 85% of today's audience were in diapers when that feud was going on, no way they're picking up on that. Let's face it, weez getting old :p

[lboinyamouf4sho]

The Sandman pretty much admits he's no pro wrestler. He's there to drink beer , use the cane and be The Sandman. The moment they try and sell him as a pro wrestler then it gets silly. As silly as when WCW would protray him as Hardcore Hak.

isn't hak what sandman goes by in real life??

[SUPERECWFAN1]

isn't hak what sandman goes by in real life??

I belive its a nickname Fullington uses. Of course how Bischoff could sign The Sandman and make him a PG rated , cookie cuter fool was sad. He had the perfect anti-authority guy to have on shows. And just made him a joke.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Good point. Perhaps they were afraid he wouldn't get any sort of reaction? Ok, I can see that. It would be a risky decision, sure, but I wish they'd take more risks.

I'm still of the opinion that having him get the win would've been far more interesting though.

Things are far too predictable for my tastes. Now, I realize that when it comes down to it, wrestling is pretty predictable anyways, but everything is by the numbers these days. For a change, I'd like to tune into Raw and actually have something happen. Just... something... anything.

Well had he got the win they'd really be in a spot to push Cody and have him get another win to keep fans happy and thinking he's a huge star right now. I think they looked at the Santino Marella decision where they introduced a new guy and pushed him so hard it alienated the fans from him. They tried a suprise shock...it backfired.

When the New Hart Foundation shows up (their all in Florida right now...) their gonna have to decide which is the best way to book them so the fans won't be turned off. So its a dicey game...they don't want Cody to be a Marella . I'd suggest if the Hart Foundation 2k7 debut they make Ric Flair the manager and let the kids go on Smackdown.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

I think they looked at the Santino Marella decision where they introduced a new guy and pushed him so hard it alienated the fans from him. They tried a suprise shock...it backfired.

When the New Hart Foundation shows up (their all in Florida right now...) their gonna have to decide which is the best way to book them so the fans won't be turned off. So its a dicey game...they don't want Cody to be a Marella . I'd suggest if the Hart Foundation 2k7 debut they make Ric Flair the manager and let the kids go on Smackdown.

they didn't even really push santino that hard, all he did was get the upset unlclean win over umaga, beat masters a couple of times, and got beat by MVP.
was not much of a title run.

why would flair manage a hart foundation?? he's not even a friend of the family.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

The fans just didn't take Santino. I have NO idea where this Maria garbage is going. It needs to stop though before it wastes anymore time.

losing a match is not getting buried(despite what cm punk fans believe) especialy when you lose to a former champ who's been recently credited with taking out 2 top stars in the company. cody came out in better shape than RVD, HBK, and most likely dusty will on sunday.

"in this buisness" you say it as if you're somehow involved.

Yeah...losing a match is not getting buried. Getting squashed as a prospect in your first match after fans got behind you the earlier week is stupid though. It will always be stupid. A guy like Lesnar came in pushed to no end and NOBODY bought it until he interacted with the Rock and they made him look credible. Orton should of just beat him down to a DQ. Wasn't that hard to book something with sense. It's about first impressions. When Benjamin first came to Raw, the booking was EXCELLENT on how to debut his face turn after everything he did on Smackdown. What happened to that kind of foresight?

And I was watching this before many of you knew how to write. So sarcasm or not, a burial case that one could see back 20 years back and still see today is the exact same thing except the fans aren't as gullible.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

they didn't even really push santino that hard, all he did was get the upset unlclean win over umaga, beat masters a couple of times, and got beat by MVP.
was not much of a title run.

why would flair manage a hart foundation?? he's not even a friend of the family.

Marella was a shocking suprise guy. He just never clicked. Had they went the Whipreck route and had him get shocking wins or take savage beatings and suprisingly win...the fans may have bought him as an Italian underdog. They went too fast and he became IC Champ in 1 night. I can see them deciding Cody shouldn't be that in a way.

Flair managing the Hart Foundation could be a tip of the hat to his old 4 Horsemen days. Plus it helps the young kids have someone like Flair around to give em a nice a rub.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Yeah...losing a match is not getting buried. Getting squashed as a prospect in your first match after fans got behind you the earlier week is stupid though. It will always be stupid.

You said it here....he's a prospect. He's at least a year or 2 away and needs time to develope in either New ECW or OVW before he can run wild on the roster. He lost his 1st ever WWE match...it happens. Ross put him over as a young in-experinced kid.

A guy like Lesnar came in pushed to no end and NOBODY bought it until he interacted with the Rock and they made him look credible.

Lesnar had developed his character and had Heyman as his mouthpiece. He was in a totally different spot than Cody Rhodes. He was ready to get his push. Cody isn't...not yet.

Orton should of just beat him down to a DQ. Wasn't that hard to book something with sense. It's about first impressions. When Benjamin first came to Raw, the booking was EXCELLENT on how to debut his face turn after everything he did on Smackdown. What happened to that kind of foresight?

He'll still take a beatdown . Cody's 1st impression was a kid who didn't have too much experince. Time away in OVW/ECW could help him. Benjimen was ahead of Cody Rhodes as well. All Cody has done is show up for 2 weeks and you want him pushed to the heavens already ?

And I was watching this before many of you knew how to write. So sarcasm or not, a burial case that one could see back 20 years back and still see today is the exact same thing except the fans aren't as gullible.

Its not a burial....its his 1st ever WWE match as they put it. Again online fans can be just as gullible. One guy wrote that Cody should have won at the Observer forgetting that the main program is Dusty/Randy. With the small debut of Cody thrown in to add heat.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

Yeah...losing a match is not getting buried. Getting squashed as a prospect in your first match after fans got behind you the earlier week is stupid though. It will always be stupid. Orton should of just beat him down to a DQ. Wasn't that hard to book something with sense. It's about first impressions. When Benjamin first came to Raw, the booking was EXCELLENT on how to debut his face turn after everything he did on Smackdown. What happened to that kind of foresight?

And I was watching this before many of you knew how to write. So sarcasm or not, a burial case that one could see back 20 years back and still see today is the exact same thing except the fans aren't as gullible.

and alot of good it's done benjamin. cody lost nothing from the defeat, he's booked as a kid with heart while orton at the moment is booked as some kind of psycho, as long as cody gets up from the beating he looks good. the match served it's purpose to "make it personal" between dusty and randy so there's nothing illogical about it, it's just not what you would've done.

you know that's really impressive, that makes 2 of us who were watching this stuff before i knew how to write. no offense but fans back then>todays "smart" fans or "pure" fans i believe you refer to them as.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

Flair managing the Hart Foundation could be a tip of the hat to his old 4 Horsemen days. Plus it helps the young kids have someone like Flair around to give em a nice a rub.

how and where is there a connection between the IV horsemen and the harts??

[Cody H]

because that's what the ppv's are forAnd that is what I have a problem with. Rather than come up with something interesting on Raw, . They've apparently got a damn Phalanx of writers working on the shows, there's no reason Raw has to be dull as ditchwater so that the PPVs look climactic in comparison. Well, unless the writers aren't very good....
what you just describes sets up the ppv to be the definition of anti-climactic.These days they are the definition of anti-climatic. There's no real climax that I can see here. Dusty gets a little hope spot perhaps, and then gets the tar beat out of him by Orton. Blading ensues and Orton ultimately boots him in the head and Dusty goes back to the office, there's your payoff. That's a big meh to me.

the whole fued imo is about keeping randys momentum going, they're not trying to resurrect dusty's career, and cody's way too green to go over orton and would be left w/o much more to do, orton & booker are the top heels on the whole damn show.No, of course they're not resurrecting Dusty's career. All I'm really trying to sayis that rather than doing the same old crap week after week, I'd like to see them mix things up a bit, throw a curveball in there every now and then. I saw the Cody / Orton match as a place they could do this.

[Rattlehead]

Winning and losing a match in an organization that clearly bills itself as "Entertainment" doesn't make a lick of difference. This isn't the 80's anymore where guys had to keep kayfabe at the grocery store and people really thought Kamala would eat them. Friggin marks.:rolleyes:

[Erik Lehnsherr]

and alot of good it's done benjamin. cody lost nothing from the defeat, he's booked as a kid with heart while orton at the moment is booked as some kind of psycho, as long as cody gets up from the beating he looks good. the match served it's purpose to "make it personal" between dusty and randy so there's nothing illogical about it, it's just not what you would've done.

you know that's really impressive, that makes 2 of us who were watching this stuff before i knew how to write. no offense but fans back then>todays "smart" fans or "pure" fans i believe you refer to them as.

Yes. At first it did Benjamin a ton of good before they dropped the ball and buried him to no end. And with HHH coming back, Michaels due back a few months later, and then the impending push of the Kennedy project, Cody will have no place to go but down. Another lost case. Another first impression that meant nothing in the end.

Fans back then were the most gullible fans in history. Made for GREAT crowds and kayfabe was strong and believable but they don't compare to what we know today. It's natural progression.

You said it here....he's a prospect. He's at least a year or 2 away and needs time to develope in either New ECW or OVW before he can run wild on the roster. He lost his 1st ever WWE match...it happens. Ross put him over as a young in-experinced kid.



Lesnar had developed his character and had Heyman as his mouthpiece. He was in a totally different spot than Cody Rhodes. He was ready to get his push. Cody isn't...not yet.



He'll still take a beatdown . Cody's 1st impression was a kid who didn't have too much experince. Time away in OVW/ECW could help him. Benjimen was ahead of Cody Rhodes as well. All Cody has done is show up for 2 weeks and you want him pushed to the heavens already ?



Its not a burial....its his 1st ever WWE match as they put it. Again online fans can be just as gullible. One guy wrote that Cody should have won at the Observer forgetting that the main program is Dusty/Randy. With the small debut of Cody thrown in to add heat.

Lesnar was a overpushed steriod junkie freak. He was given Heyman as a mouthpiece and NO ONE GAVE A DAMN until after Summerslam and Rocky went away. Then they tried to get into those Taker matches and they marked out for him at Survivor Series against Big Show. It still went to the wayside because by Backlash '03, fans turned on Lesnar and was cheering for heel Cena.

It's not about pushing Cody to the heavens. Why a squash match? What does that do? People aren't gonna forget that shit.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

how and where is there a connection between the IV horsemen and the harts??

If they keep Wilson/Hart/Smith/Nattie they'll have a 4 person Hart team. Flair can be the genuis heel running them and pretty much brag he's learned some things from J.J Dillon.

Odds are they won't. But it would be awesome to see a Hart Foundation team with a Horseman legend as the manager , helping them lead to dominance.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Winning and losing a match in an organization that clearly bills itself as "Entertainment" doesn't make a lick of difference. This isn't the 80's anymore where guys had to keep kayfabe at the grocery store and people really thought Kamala would eat them. Friggin marks.:rolleyes:

People are worried about Cody's spot. They wonder why he lost when many in the Observer claimed he was a golden star . Except odds are they do think he's a star...just not now.

[titanfan]

The fans just didn't take Santino. I have NO idea where this Maria garbage is going. It needs to stop though before it wastes anymore time.

At least Maria gets screen time!

No one should be surprised that the Santino thing didn't work out. His gimmick is--he's Italian. Plus, he didn't actually beat Umaga, Lashley did the hard stuff for him. I think it might have been different had he actually beaten Umaga on his own, followed by a stronger push.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Yes. At first it did Benjamin a ton of good before they dropped the ball and buried him to no end. And with HHH coming back, Michaels due back a few months later, and then the impending push of the Kennedy project, Cody will have no place to go but down. Another lost case. Another first impression that meant nothing in the end.

Cody may not even be on RAW. Hell...he maybe put on ECW or OVW to hone his craft and work his gimmick. Lets name some names....John Morrison : Ready Star. CM Punk: Ready Star. Cody Rhodes....Prospect. He odds are needs schooling more than a push on the A+ Brand.

Lesnar was a overpushed steriod junkie freak. He was given Heyman as a mouthpiece and NO ONE GAVE A DAMN until after Summerslam and Rocky went away. Then they tried to get into those Taker matches and they marked out for him at Survivor Series against Big Show. It still went to the wayside because by Backlash '03, fans turned on Lesnar and was cheering for heel Cena.

Lesnar was ready. He had spent a year in OVW and was called their NEXT BIG THING for a reason. They had taken their time and groomed him to be the next star. It doesn't matter where Lesnar went after 2004....the company signed him and let him develope in OVW awhile and didn't rush him on TV .

It's not about pushing Cody to the heavens. Why a squash match? What does that do? People aren't gonna forget that shit.

The fued was always gonna be Dusty/Randy. They had to try and make it personal. Push some heat into it and build it that Randy had beat up Cody in front of his dad. Even though Cody tried...he wasn't experinced enough to beat Orton.

Which is how Ross played it. Once he developes in a few years he'll get the win back. But for now his 1st WWE match is a loss. It doesn't mean every other match will be losses.

[JohnPopa]

Lesnar also spent months doing jobs on WWE house shows before showing up on TV as 'unbeaten and unbeatable.'

Cody losing doesn't matter. Anyone can be relaunched for a push.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Cody losing doesn't matter. Anyone can be relaunched for a push.

Case in point....Dave Batista who was a Deacon under the leadership of D-Von for awhile. ;)

[paulski]

Lesnar was a overpushed steriod junkie freak. He was given Heyman as a mouthpiece and NO ONE GAVE A DAMN until after Summerslam and Rocky went away. Then they tried to get into those Taker matches and they marked out for him at Survivor Series against Big Show. It still went to the wayside because by Backlash '03, fans turned on Lesnar and was cheering for heel Cena.

I don't usually get involved in these arguments because I don't get to see a lot of wrestling lately, but I gotta disagree with your assessment of Lesnar. From the time he hit the real WWF/E, he was booked beautifully and no-sold nicely. He was an unbeatable monster, someone that could beat both Hardy Boyz by himself in a handicap match. No one got close to him and it worked. That's why, with all the talent they had at their disposal at the time, he was pushed to main event status in around 4 months and then beat Rocky clean for the title. And again, it worked. His title reigns and feuds with Taker, Show and Angle were top class - the main reason? The guy could wrestle and, like or hate him, put on a good show. I actually got a chance to see him live down here in Oz in August 2002 and thought "man, that guy's brutal!".

So I'm not commenting on the whole Cody thing, having not seen him wrestle yet, but I think you've been harsh on Lesnar.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

And that is what I have a problem with. Rather than come up with something interesting on Raw, . They've apparently got a damn Phalanx of writers working on the shows, there's no reason Raw has to be dull as ditchwater so that the PPVs look climactic in comparison. Well, unless the writers aren't very good....
These days they are the definition of anti-climatic. There's no real climax that I can see here. Dusty gets a little hope spot perhaps, and then gets the tar beat out of him by Orton. Blading ensues and Orton ultimately boots him in the head and Dusty goes back to the office, there's your payoff. That's a big meh to me.

No, of course they're not resurrecting Dusty's career. All I'm really trying to sayis that rather than doing the same old crap week after week, I'd like to see them mix things up a bit, throw a curveball in there every now and then. I saw the Cody / Orton match as a place they could do this.

well, i'm sorry then, this program(dusty vs orton) just isn't for you. the payoff is randy gets to put another notch in his belt(pick ip more heel heat) on his way to an eventual title fued, he needs something to do while the cena lashley thing runs it's course and i fail to see how dropping a win to cody a week before the PPV match with dusty would've helped accomplish that goal.

i can dig what you're saying, i just don't see the big opprotunity missed here.

with HHH coming back, Michaels due back a few months later, and then the impending push of the Kennedy project, Cody will have no place to go but down. Another lost case. Another first impression that meant nothing in the end.

Fans back then were the most gullible fans in history. Made for GREAT crowds and kayfabe was strong and believable but they don't compare to what we know today. It's natural progression.

It's not about pushing Cody to the heavens. Why a squash match? What does that do? People aren't gonna forget that shit.

well cody should certainly not go up from here, down from upper midcard sounds like a good place to start to me.

i hate to break it to you but you're not any better than the fans back then.

to add some heat to the PPV match.

If they keep Wilson/Hart/Smith/Nattie they'll have a 4 person Hart team. Flair can be the genuis heel running them and pretty much brag he's learned some things from J.J Dillon.

Odds are they won't. But it would be awesome to see a Hart Foundation team with a Horseman legend as the manager , helping them lead to dominance.

the awesomeness just escapes me i guess. to me it doesn't sound any better than having a 4 person stable of MVP/cor von/burke/benjamin with flair as the genius heel running them and bragging he's learned something from jj dillion. a nation of domination team with a horseman legend as the manager helping lead them to dominance

[Cody H]

well, i'm sorry then, this program(dusty vs orton) just isn't for you. the payoff is randy gets to put another notch in his belt(pick ip more heel heat) on his way to an eventual title fued, he needs something to do while the cena lashley thing runs it's course and i fail to see how dropping a win to cody a week before the PPV match with dusty would've helped accomplish that goal.

i can dig what you're saying, i just don't see the big opprotunity missed here.
Fair enough. More than anything I saw this as a general example of an uninteresting match, and an ultimately uninteresting program. My point had more to do with consistely predictable and uninteresting booking than any specific to Cody (or Orton for that matter).

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Get ready to embrace the NEW WWE Champion after this Sunday...Bobby Lashley. I mean...it's all but guaranteed: http://www.wwe.com/shows/thegreatamericanbash/exclusives/lashleyvowsgabvictory

I don't usually get involved in these arguments because I don't get to see a lot of wrestling lately, but I gotta disagree with your assessment of Lesnar. From the time he hit the real WWF/E, he was booked beautifully and no-sold nicely. He was an unbeatable monster, someone that could beat both Hardy Boyz by himself in a handicap match. No one got close to him and it worked. That's why, with all the talent they had at their disposal at the time, he was pushed to main event status in around 4 months and then beat Rocky clean for the title. And again, it worked. His title reigns and feuds with Taker, Show and Angle were top class - the main reason? The guy could wrestle and, like or hate him, put on a good show. I actually got a chance to see him live down here in Oz in August 2002 and thought "man, that guy's brutal!".

So I'm not commenting on the whole Cody thing, having not seen him wrestle yet, but I think you've been harsh on Lesnar.

Lesnar was a company champion. Just like Cena. He was green at first but he got good really fast. Still doesn't take away from the fact that he's one of the most overpushed wrestlers/champions that anyone has ever laid eyes on in the industry. And the reason why people took him serious was because he beat Rock clean. The Rock put him over, like he always does for a top talent that needs a rub. That's why YOU cared for him. That's why everyone who has ever liked him. Because it took a real star to make him what he is. Brock Lesnar was a experiment and it in the end, it bit everyone in the ass. He quit in under two years of his debut and has been wrestling 10 minute Japanese wrestling matches ever since. He's a joke. A novelty act. A nice talent that thought too highly of himself. I mean this idiot thought he was gonna go to the NFL after not being in football since what? High school or early college? Pathetic. A idiot of the highest degree. Brock Lesnar is one of the most pitiful cases in wrestling history. Good riddance to that loser.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

The Rock put him over, like he always does for a top talent that needs a rub. That's why YOU cared for him. That's why everyone who has ever liked him. Because it took a real star to make him what he is. Brock Lesnar was a experiment and it in the end, it bit everyone in the ass. He quit in under two years of his debut and has been wrestling 10 minute Japanese wrestling matches ever since. He's a joke. A novelty act. A nice talent that thought too highly of himself. I mean this idiot thought he was gonna go to the NFL after not being in football since what? High school or early college? Pathetic. A idiot of the highest degree. Brock Lesnar is one of the most pitiful cases in wrestling history. Good riddance to that loser.


you can't speak for everyone who ever liked lesnar, i liked lesnar before he ever beat the rock and i'm sure alot of others did too. the job rock did for lesnar did wonders for his career but lesnar had caught on with people before that point.

and for being sucha loser he made some pretty god damn good money doing those 10min matches in japan and is making even more doing MMA now because of the name he made in wrestling. laugh it up i guess but lesnar will probly never have to wrestle again if he does not want to.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

"the awesomeness just escapes me i guess. to me it doesn't sound any better than having a 4 person stable of MVP/cor von/burke/benjamin with flair as the genius heel running them and bragging he's learned something from jj dillion. a nation of domination team with a horseman legend as the manager helping lead them to dominance"

Wait, are you saying that a stable with MVP/Cor Von/Burke/Benjamin with Flair as manager WOULDN'T be awesome?

Because it sounds pretty awesome to me. :p

[lboinyamouf4sho]

"the awesomeness just escapes me i guess. to me it doesn't sound any better than having a 4 person stable of MVP/cor von/burke/benjamin with flair as the genius heel running them and bragging he's learned something from jj dillion. a nation of domination team with a horseman legend as the manager helping lead them to dominance"

Wait, are you saying that a stable with MVP/Cor Von/Burke/Benjamin with Flair as manager WOULDN'T be awesome?

Because it sounds pretty awesome to me. :p

i'd love the stable, it's one of the many ideas i waste countless hours coming up with, but what the hell would they need flair as a manager for?? there's no connection between the nation of domination and the IV horsemen.

[cactusmaac]

I don't really like the "They're black, let's make them the Nation of Domination!" idea. It makes as much sense as shovelling Canadians into anti-American factions simply because the Hart Foundation was a success.

Cor Von, Benjamin and MVP don't need a stable to get over. MVP already is over, Cor Von just needs the mic to get over and Shelton needs to move to Smackdown so he can get over based on his matches since he's a long way away from finding a personality. Being a pissed-off, black militant isn't a good fit for him anyway.

[cactusmaac]

A guy like Lesnar came in pushed to no end and NOBODY bought it until he interacted with the Rock and they made him look credible.

He became credible from the moment he entered a WWE ring and tossed Matt Hardy around like a midget. He got the crowd to turn in his favour against The Rock, for god's sake. He was probably the single most gifted rookie to have taken up pro wrestling and he'd still justifiably be at the top of the card if he was around today. In terms of size, strength, agility and ring smarts he was the single best package I've seen. Lesnar should have been in the midcard for a another year to a 18 months to seriously build fire for his first title win, but again Vince goes weak at the knees for big men.

And that is what I have a problem with. Rather than come up with something interesting on Raw, . They've apparently got a damn Phalanx of writers working on the shows, there's no reason Raw has to be dull as ditchwater so that the PPVs look climactic in comparison. Well, unless the writers aren't very good....
These days they are the definition of anti-climatic. There's no real climax that I can see here. Dusty gets a little hope spot perhaps, and then gets the tar beat out of him by Orton. Blading ensues and Orton ultimately boots him in the head and Dusty goes back to the office, there's your payoff. That's a big meh to me.

No, of course they're not resurrecting Dusty's career. All I'm really trying to sayis that rather than doing the same old crap week after week, I'd like to see them mix things up a bit, throw a curveball in there every now and then. I saw the Cody / Orton match as a place they could do this.

Curveballs just confuse the audience. Orton's been milling around the midcard since his feud with Triple H and needs to be rebuilt as a seriously dominating force if the audience is going to buy him as a genuine threat to SuperCena at Summerslam and Triple H thereafter. This isn't a real sport where people accept the top stars occasionally have an off day and get beaten by rookies. That just makes the more established guys look ineffective.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

I don't really like the "They're black, let's make them the Nation of Domination!" idea. It makes as much sense as shovelling Canadians into anti-American factions simply because the Hart Foundation was a success.

Cor Von, Benjamin and MVP don't need a stable to get over. MVP already is over, Cor Von just needs the mic to get over and Shelton needs to move to Smackdown so he can get over based on his matches since he's a long way away from finding a personality. Being a pissed-off, black militant isn't a good fit for him anyway.


i only used the nation of domination as an anology of the hart foundation, as neither stable had anything to do with flair or the horsemen. in my little fantasy booking i'd have actually called them the dark horsemen, so i guess flair wouldn't have been a bad choice as a manager but i really don't think they'd need him.

they don't need a stable to be over, i just like those guys and as a fan i'd love to see them together. with MVP as the leader/speaker, monty as enforcer/co-speaker, and benjamin & burke as the prospects/tag team(together or either with monty at any given time) it just sounds cool to me. i like the idea of a benjamin/burke tag team with the amatuer wrestling/boxing backgrounds.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I don't really like the "They're black, let's make them the Nation of Domination!" idea. It makes as much sense as shovelling Canadians into anti-American factions simply because the Hart Foundation was a success.

Cor Von, Benjamin and MVP don't need a stable to get over. MVP already is over, Cor Von just needs the mic to get over and Shelton needs to move to Smackdown so he can get over based on his matches since he's a long way away from finding a personality. Being a pissed-off, black militant isn't a good fit for him anyway.

Simple, huh? MVP is semi over for the time being, Cor Von isn't allowed on the mic for some reason, and they REFUSE to allow Shelton Benjamin to work anything close to long single's matches except on Heat. You know..the thing that got the fans cheering him HEAVILY in 2005 as his IC reign was coming to an end. If only they were all on Smackdown...things would be 50x better.

He became credible from the moment he entered a WWE ring and tossed Matt Hardy around like a midget. He got the crowd to turn in his favour against The Rock, for god's sake. He was probably the single most gifted rookie to have taken up pro wrestling and he'd still justifiably be at the top of the card if he was around today. In terms of size, strength, agility and ring smarts he was the single best package I've seen. Lesnar should have been in the midcard for a another year to a 18 months to seriously build fire for his first title win, but again Vince goes weak at the knees for big men.



I see you you're back in delusional mode again. "Turned the fans against the Rock"? The Rock going to Hollywood turned NY against him before the bell even run. That's why they cheered for Lesnar so hard. Not because they liked him or anything. Still...the fans chanted "Rocky" and "Let's go Rocky" during the match when the hate for him leaving became apparent. The Rock made that kid and nothing can ever change that. Austin walked out. HHH refused to job like always. So who's left? Well the biggest star in the company who came back just to get the company back on track yet again.

He was tossing Matt Hardy and RVD around like nobodies and NOBODY cared. Instead they chanted "Goldberg" heavily at him until he feuded with the Rock and they finally started those huge "Lesnar SUCKS" chants leading to Summerslam. The Raw before Summeslam, HHH came out in a pink polo shirt and talked about his Michaels match to absolutely no reaction but as soon as he mentioned Brock Lesnar's name? Huge boos. As soon as he mentioned "destroying the Rock in that ring tonight"? The crowd booed him out, chanted "Asshole", and then chanted "Rocky" to no end. So all of that make believe comedy about Lesnar making himself is as big a joke as any rant I've ever seen put at this place. Lesnar was a experiment that benefited from the Rock's departure. By '03 though, the fans grew sick of him and cheered for heel Cena and a returning Angle over him. He's a overrated joke.

you can't speak for everyone who ever liked lesnar, i liked lesnar before he ever beat the rock and i'm sure alot of others did too. the job rock did for lesnar did wonders for his career but lesnar had caught on with people before that point.



Catch on? Probably to the ECW ran IWC forums of the time that despised the Rock but to the arenas that paid to see the show? He was a unover nobody. Even after he won the King of the Ring, he only got "Goldberg" chants. He was a phony. A pretender. A experiment pushed to no end. That's all. And it worked because of the Rock and NY fans being angry at him at a partcular time when Lesnar was in the ring with him. If it was Rock vs RVD at Summerslam '02, the reaction STILL would of revolved around the Rock's offense and his comebacks like it did during the Lesnar match.

And hopefully he never wrestles in the states again. Because he's the worst kind of trash this industry can generate. The one hand picked into success and walked away from it at a moment's dime. Stay in Japan, Lesnar, with your goofy tatoo. YOU SUCK.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

I see you you're back in delusional mode again.


:D pot, meet kettle.

[cactusmaac]

Simple, huh? MVP is semi over for the time being, Cor Von isn't allowed on the mic for some reason, and they REFUSE to allow Shelton Benjamin to work anything close to long single's matches except on Heat. You know..the thing that got the fans cheering him HEAVILY in 2005 as his IC reign was coming to an end. If only they were all on Smackdown...things would be 50x better.

I don't know if they were cheering him heavily in 2005. Shelton exploded out of the gates as a dynamic underdog but he gradually lost steam after that. But yeah, he just needs sending to Smackdown and putting on a long series of good matches. He can do well enough as somebody who just goes out and wrestles since the fans eventually warm to guys who work their boots off week after week and it would be easy enough to present him as an unadorned, genuine athlete rather than the Black Militant\Mama's Boy\Ric Flair gimmicks the WWE Brains Trust come up with.


I see you you're back in delusional mode again.

We could take a straw poll in the Rasslin' Thread to see which one of us is regarded as being serially delusional.


"Turned the fans against the Rock"? The Rock going to Hollywood turned NY against him before the bell even run. That's why they cheered for Lesnar so hard. Not because they liked him or anything. Still...the fans chanted "Rocky" and "Let's go Rocky" during the match when the hate for him leaving became apparent. The Rock made that kid and nothing can ever change that. Austin walked out. HHH refused to job like always. So who's left? Well the biggest star in the company who came back just to get the company back on track yet again.

Rock was getting increasingly negative reactions but the fans seriously took to Lesnar then. They were marking out for his power and skill displays before but the build-up packages contrasting their training for the Summerslam match got fans to mark out for him as a hard-working, badass monster whose work ethic you couldn't help but sympathise with. Rock did his usual stuff in the match, he didn't go for subtle heel moves like he did against Hogan at Mania.

Rob had already wowed crowds when he made his debut and he wouldn't have caused the sudden shift that Lesnar did.

[marshal99]

Hmm... i always thought that it was Lesnar's win over Undertaker in the Hell in a cell match that finally put him over and legitamised his title reign.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I don't know if they were cheering him heavily in 2005. Shelton exploded out of the gates as a dynamic underdog but he gradually lost steam after that. But yeah, he just needs sending to Smackdown and putting on a long series of good matches. He can do well enough as somebody who just goes out and wrestles since the fans eventually warm to guys who work their boots off week after week and it would be easy enough to present him as an unadorned, genuine athlete rather than the Black Militant\Mama's Boy\Ric Flair gimmicks the WWE Brains Trust come up with.



We could take a straw poll in the Rasslin' Thread to see which one of us is regarded as being serially delusional.



Rock was getting increasingly negative reactions but the fans seriously took to Lesnar then. They were marking out for his power and skill displays before but the build-up packages contrasting their training for the Summerslam match got fans to mark out for him as a hard-working, badass monster whose work ethic you couldn't help but sympathise with. Rock did his usual stuff in the match, he didn't go for subtle heel moves like he did against Hogan at Mania.

Rob had already wowed crowds when he made his debut and he wouldn't have caused the sudden shift that Lesnar did.

During the Michaels/Benjamin match, you can hear "Let's go Shelton" chants and during the Hassan-Davari vs Jericho/Benjamin program, they was chanting "Let's go Shelton" instead of chanting "Y2J" in all of those tag team matches they had. All of that after LA WM crowd cheered him over the other participants and his Jericho match stole the show at Backlash. He was on fire and booking stopped him. Now..people love bashing him over mic skills and charisma comedy but back then? When he was having 15-20 minute matches that were making Raw watchable by the week, things were much different.

You can take a poll here? Sure.. but anywhere else and you sound nuts. It's long been known how off you have been in the past. Me? Not so. I TOLD you and everyone here that Lashley was not going to be moved to the midcard after he left ECW? But did you believe me? Of course not. I TOLD you that Kennedy would NOT be getting some HUGE main event push while Lashley gets held down but you covered your ears and believed the opposite. You were just like everyone else but Sunday's main event sure as hell doesn't follow that line of thought now, does it? And for all of this talk of Lashley being horrible or being hard to listen to, he's STILL going to get cheered over John Cena tommorrow and there isn't anything anyone can do to change that. That's the difference between delusional and living with the way things are. Lashley=Main Event. King Booker= Top Heel. Kennedy=Jobber midcarder. Orton=Pushed upper midcarder for the time being. Cena=Beats everyone. HHH=Beats everyone. That's the way it is on Raw.

The Rock was getting increasingly negative reactions leading to Summerslam. Tell the show...I have it all on tape. Which one was it? Was it the one in Seattle where he came out and got one of the biggest pops of the 2000s? Oh I get it...it's that match I linked here with him and Flair two weeks after he won the Undisputed title and Flair country booed him during his heel antics during the match yet still chanted his name as if they had no choice? Or was it the during the Eddie non title match when he once again blew the roof off the place while absorbing non stop "Rocky" chants and Eddie getting "Eddie SUCKS" chants on offense? Which one is it? Because we can go over the whole damn thing.

During the Rock/Brock match, the Rock worked a face comeback match except he was the first one to counter the F'5. It was more back and forth than any other Lesnar match to that point. So that outlook on that match doesn't add up. I would know...I have the History of WWE Championship DVD and can watch it at will. All of these shaky analysis of said matches have to be done better, my friend. You're talking to someone with the whole catalog.

RVD was 20x bigger than Lesnar in 2002. The WWE just pushed Lesnar like he was legit. Period. End of story.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Hmm... i always thought that it was Lesnar's win over Undertaker in the Hell in a cell match that finally put him over and legitamised his title reign.

He didn't have a title reign until the Rock made him. He didn't have heat until the Rock made him. He was a King of the Ring winner going the way of Billy Gunn until he was pushed as the next Goldberg and Rock put him over while Austin hightailed it and HHH worked the Michaels return deal.

[marshal99]

He didn't have a title reign until the Rock made him. He didn't have heat until the Rock made him. He was a King of the Ring winner going the way of Billy Gunn until he was pushed as the next Goldberg and Rock put him over while Austin hightailed it and HHH worked the Michaels return deal.

For the same reason the fans turned against the rock , they know that the rock was going to leave and was going to lose the match anyway so i wouldn't say it's the rock that made him in any way. I believe It was the Undertaker that put Brock over as a legit contender when they went through that hell in the cell match and Brock proved that he is the real deal.

[JDogindy]

Cody is supposed to be some new pushed midcarder according to Meltzer and others. Why is he getting buried for no reason? It's the definition of illogical in this business.

Ain't the purpose of showing new fighters is to let them their first match, especially against a strong heel, like Orton? Then again, the last new fighter needed help to beat an even stronger heel. Not naming names.

Also, it makes the opponent look stupid as hell. I think that's WWE's damage control for you.

[Cody H]

Curveballs just confuse the audience.Depends on the curveball. I don't think I'm the only one whose disappointed with how uninteresting and predictable things are in WWE these days. I'm willing to accept that I might be in the minority though.
Orton's been milling around the midcard since his feud with Triple H and needs to be rebuilt as a seriously dominating force if the audience is going to buy him as a genuine threat to SuperCena at Summerslam and Triple H thereafter. This isn't a real sport where people accept the top stars occasionally have an off day and get beaten by rookies. That just makes the more established guys look ineffective.See, that's the trick. I don't really buy into the idea of Randal running around with the title. If plans are indeed to set him up as the next challenger, then the loss would stunt his momentum, so I can see why he shouldn't lose. I just not all that excited about that prospect. Problem I have with Orton is that as soon as he mangles a sentence or seven, I tend to lose interest. Verbally, the guy just isn't that great. He just doesn't seem up to telling his side of a story.

[BoosterBronze]

Hmm... i always thought that it was Lesnar's win over Undertaker in the Hell in a cell match that finally put him over and legitamised his title reign.

Personally, I go with when he wiped Hogan's blood across his chest as a truly defiing Lesnar moment.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

In the grand scheme of things if I was Lashley , I'd pray I'd get a Kennedy type reaction. Hell he can turn heel or face. Hell , had his injury not be a huge wrong he'd be World Champion on Smackdown at this point.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

For the same reason the fans turned against the rock , they know that the rock was going to leave and was going to lose the match anyway so i wouldn't say it's the rock that made him in any way. I believe It was the Undertaker that put Brock over as a legit contender when they went through that hell in the cell match and Brock proved that he is the real deal.

No one knew of Lesnar until the Rock feud. Period. He was just a internet talked about Goldberg clone until that point. Fans giving the Rock a mixed reaction doesn't change that Lesnar was a nobody until that match. Lesnar vs Taker the next month led to "Bullshit" chants and it took the HIAC match for fans to get back into that result. That was the finishing sequence in fans starting to buy Lesnar. Rock putting him over and Taker putting him over. You or no one would even care about that kid if those things never happened.

[Cody H]

No one knew of Lesnar until the Rock feud. Period. He was just a internet talked about Goldberg clone until that point.The moment Lesnar arrived on Raw and started belivably demolishing people is when I started caring. When I saw Paul Heyman at ringside directing traffic I started caring. Lesnar had an explosive moveset and was remarkably agile for a bigman, a combination that, in my opinion, has not be surpased by anybody I've seen in North American wrestling since. The combination of Heyman (the best mouthpiece in business IMO) and Lesnar's in-ring skill had me hooked from the beginning. I also know a number of decidedly less "involved" wrestling fans than myself who were impressed with him from the get-go. Lesnar basically had everything going for him; his strengths were accentuated near perfectly and his weak mic skills were more than made up for by the inclusion of Paul Heyman as his manager. Of course a title feud with The Rock helped him but I do not believe that "no one would even care about that kid" if he didn't feud with The Rock. People did (he wasn't getting the lack of reaction that you're claiming he was) and given his talent, probably would've continued to care about him.Fans giving the Rock a mixed reaction doesn't change that Lesnar was a nobody until that match.That was not a mixed reaction, he was booed out of the building that night.You or no one would even care about that kid if those things never happened.Speaking for yourself is cool but you really shouldn't be putting words in people's mouths, you lose a lot of credibility and it makes you sound kind of arrogant.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

The moment Lesnar arrived on Raw and started belivably demolishing people is when I started caring. When I saw Paul Heyman at ringside directing traffic I started caring. Lesnar had an explosive moveset and was remarkably agile for a bigman, a combination that, in my opinion, has not be surpased by anybody I've seen in North American wrestling since. The combination of Heyman (the best mouthpiece in business IMO) and Lesnar's in-ring skill had me hooked from the beginning. I also know a number of decidedly less "involved" wrestling fans than myself who were impressed with him from the get-go. Lesnar basically had everything going for him; his strengths were accentuated near perfectly and his weak mic skills were more than made up for by the inclusion of Paul Heyman as his manager. Of course a title feud with The Rock helped him but I do not believe that "no one would even care about that kid" if he didn't feud with The Rock. People did (he wasn't getting the lack of reaction that you're claiming he was) and given his talent, probably would've continued to care about him.That was not a mixed reaction, he was booed out of the building that night.Speaking for yourself is cool but you really shouldn't be putting words in people's mouths, you lose a lot of credibility and it makes you sound kind of arrogant.

alot of people felt that way, lesnar was one of those guys who non-wrestling fans would ask me about(knowing i am a fan). they'd ask "have you seen that huge white dude with the giant shoulders and a big tat on his back"?? and that was before the match with rock.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

The moment Lesnar arrived on Raw and started belivably demolishing people is when I started caring. When I saw Paul Heyman at ringside directing traffic I started caring. Lesnar had an explosive moveset and was remarkably agile for a bigman, a combination that, in my opinion, has not be surpased by anybody I've seen in North American wrestling since. The combination of Heyman (the best mouthpiece in business IMO) and Lesnar's in-ring skill had me hooked from the beginning. I also know a number of decidedly less "involved" wrestling fans than myself who were impressed with him from the get-go. Lesnar basically had everything going for him; his strengths were accentuated near perfectly and his weak mic skills were more than made up for by the inclusion of Paul Heyman as his manager. Of course a title feud with The Rock helped him but I do not believe that "no one would even care about that kid" if he didn't feud with The Rock. People did (he wasn't getting the lack of reaction that you're claiming he was) and given his talent, probably would've continued to care about him.That was not a mixed reaction, he was booed out of the building that night.Speaking for yourself is cool but you really shouldn't be putting words in people's mouths, you lose a lot of credibility and it makes you sound kind of arrogant.

The crowd reaction for Rock and Lesnar goes like this and if you need further help remembering, I'll find a link on Dailymotion to remind you. The match started off with "Rocky SUCKS" chants, then a huge "Rocky" chant, "Let's Go Lesnar", "Rocky", "Let's go Rocky", and a huge "Lesnar SUCKS" chant while the Rock was out on the outside after the Rock Bottom on Heyman. Then they had a duel "Let's go Rocky" "Let's Go Lesnar" chant. They popped for the F'5. The definition of a mixed reaction. Much more mixed than Shawn got booed out of WM XX during Beniot's big night even though his apologists claim difference. Much different than what we get with Cena when he's facing midcarders on Raw and fans turn on him at a drop of a dime every two weeks.

You cared but the CROWD didn't. Period. He got Rob Conway silence for 3 straight months. Not even Heyman got any reaction on the mic. The Hardyz got some reaction during that part of the feud but he didn't. RVD got a great reaction at King of the Ring and Vengeance but Lesnar didn't. The Rock match is the key point in why we are even discussing this kid.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Personally, I go with when he wiped Hogan's blood across his chest as a truly defiing Lesnar moment.

Thats the thing that seperates Lashley and Lesnar. Brock was given such impressive wins. Hell he destroyed Hulk Hogan. Poor Bobby could barely beat Umaga.

[Conn Seanery]

Focus on the wrestling, not each other.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

Thats the thing that seperates Lashley and Lesnar. Brock was given such impressive wins. Hell he destroyed Hulk Hogan. Poor Bobby could barely beat Umaga.


cena could barely beat umaga.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

cena could barely beat umaga.

He did it in a bloody war of a match. Like he went into a war and won. Even with them trying to make it damn comical that he overcame a hurt spleen on the website and refusing medical attention.

Lashly/Umaga seemed to seque more into Lashley kicking Vince McMahon's ass than anything.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

He did it in a bloody war of a match. Like he went into a war and won. Even with them trying to make it damn comical that he overcame a hurt spleen on the website and refusing medical attention.

Lashly/Umaga seemed to seque more into Lashley kicking Vince McMahon's ass than anything.

and???????????

[SUPERECWFAN1]

and???????????

Other than Lashley throwing himself thru a cage to get to Umaga , did he ever actually get a pure win over the guy ?

[lboinyamouf4sho]

Other than Lashley throwing himself thru a cage to get to Umaga , did he ever actually get a pure win over the guy ?

no, cena is the only 1 to do that, and he barely did it. umaga has been protected and kept strong which is why a "lashley could barely beat umaga" comment doesn't hold much weight, even superman john cena could barely beat him.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Other than Lashley throwing himself thru a cage to get to Umaga , did he ever actually get a pure win over the guy ?

Lashley pinned him in that handicap match at Backlash in record time.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

Lashley pinned him in that handicap match at Backlash in record time.

i thought you only deal in "facts & proof"??