Tony Stark or Frank Castle?

[The Anti-Existence]

The Punisher is often brought up in discussions of Tony's "villainy." Mainly as an attck point against Captain America.

But let's compare the two.. They're both far from noble and upstanding people at this point in time. However, I don't think Castle's "crimes" are comparable to Tony's.

To me, Frank has always been in a grey area while Tony is currently in the "you are evil!!" area.

So, your thoughts? The Punisher = murderous psycho? Tony = power-hungry and ruthless psycho? What is your opinion?

[Will.S]

Iron Man and Punisher couldn't be any more opposite from each other.

Iron Man fights to have the superhero community controlled and working with the govt while Punisher is one of the reasons why registration would be necessary since he's a gun toting vigilante. Punisher also murders villains rather than capturing them or giving them a trial regardless of some of their crimes, Iron Man has made alot of questionable decisions but he never kills someone outright unless it was inadvertently.

[DaeJi]

Whats with all the Tony hate? Yes, he's made a lot of stupid decisions and has been a royal jerk (staying completely in character for the most part), but he's not a villain. I doubt even Cap, at the height of the Civil War, would have callen Tony a villain. Of course the Punisher is worse; he's a crazied psyco who lives by his own code of justice.

[The Anti-Existence]

And Tony is a man who employs Bullseye and apparently, Bullseye has killed a father and his child just to steal their ice cream.

He's a crazied psycho who kills for fun.

Yet people criticize Cap for letting Frank join up. At leas the hade him say he'd try and hold back his ways.

Also, Punisher is not insane nor a villain. He's arguably more of a real world hero than any of the others. He actually makes sense for one. Justice sucks and a lot of guilty as sin people walk free. Rapists, mobsters, what have you. He kills them.

I'm a pacifist myself and I do not enjoy people getting hurt. But Frank's motivations are very understandable.

[Will.S]

And Tony is a man who employs Bullseye and apparently, Bullseye has killed a father and his child just to steal their ice cream.

He's a crazied psycho who kills for fun.
Yes but Bullseye's crimes are not Tony's crimes, the circumstances as to how Bullseye murdered the father and the kid after being sent to 42 are unclear but Tony had no part in that.

Also Iron Man doesn't recruit Bullseye for any sort of permanent status, Reed and him specifically state that they were only to be used until the war was over. Jack O Lantern and Jester go after Spider-Man and since they're under control they don't try to mess with the system whereas Punisher outright kills them after they were going to bring Spider-Man in.

New T-Bolts as seen in Ellis's book work both for the US gov't and with the CSA so Tony doesn't have anything to do with that which was also seen in the Nova book.


Yet people criticize Cap for letting Frank join up. At leas the hade him say he'd try and hold back his ways.

Also, Punisher is not insane nor a villain. He's arguably more of a real world hero than any of the others. He actually makes sense for one. Justice sucks and a lot of guilty as sin people walk free. Rapists, mobsters, what have you. He kills them.

I'm a pacifist myself and I do not enjoy people getting hurt. But Frank's motivations are very understandable.
I'm certainly not one of those people who criticize Cap for recruiting Frank, he begrudgingly did it and had him only do strict covert ops until he blasted the villains who wanted sanctuary. This was out of Cap's control and he put Frank in his place for killing these guys, the thing with Punisher is that while he's not a supervillain his methods of justice cross the moral boundaries that morally strong superheroes would dare not cross.

Iron Man at worst is a manipulative bastard but he doesn't kill all of his villains unless it were absolutely necessary (Madden in Extremis) or if it was completely out of his hands.

[Ult. Fireboy]

I think that the fact of Tony making murderers people that hunt down superheroes was awful. That was a risk that Tony should not have took.

On the other hand Frank has murdered tons of things, so I guess that it is pretty much evened out.

[Harold of the Rocks]

And Tony is a man who employs Bullseye and apparently, Bullseye has killed a father and his child just to steal their ice cream.Don't let the facts get in the way of good rhetoric. ;)

The Thunderbolts are "employed" by the C.S.A., not S.H.I.E.L.D. -- Tony is not their "boss". You're definitely not the first to make this mistake and won't be the last. It's one that bothers me, because it is an important distinction.

I don't have the time to debate or rehash arguments why Tony is not "a villain" on yet another thread. Suffice it to say that Silver Surfer said it best (about Reed Richards) recently when he basically said that there are times when the ends do justify the means... actually quite often. Tony is trying to allow superheroes to continue to use their powers for the greater good in a culture that was about ready to shut them down entirely. He is saving lives by allowing them to prevent supervillain crimes and tragedies.

Punisher wants to be the judge, jury, and executioner. All fine and good if you are never wrong. And therein lies the problem with his 'solution'. An example where the ends do not justify the means.

[Kefky]

To be honest, I think marvel probably removed the blame of the new thunderbolts from Tony's shoulder after civil war because people were bitching about them so much..... Which is only sensible, since much like Clor, it was one those "what the hell was Mark Milar thinking?!?" to come out of civil war.

[Spiffy]

Simple.

Frank Castle is an unhinged vigilante murderer.

Tony Stark is a hypocrite.


Next!

[hyzmarca]

Punisher wants to be the judge, jury, and executioner. All fine and good if you are never wrong. And therein lies the problem with his 'solution'. An example where the ends do not justify the means.

But there in lies the difference between them. Punisher holds himself to the same standards that he holds everyone else. If Frank Castle was ever wrong, then Frank Castle would be Punished, simply, brutally, and finally. Meanwhile, I don't see Tony throwing himself into prison.

[Exo]

If Frank Castle was ever wrong, then Frank Castle would be Punished, simply, brutally, and finally.

But Frank Castle is wrong only not in his very own perception. He believes killing is the answer to everything bad in the world. Do you agree with that?

[Harold of the Rocks]

But there in lies the difference between them. Punisher holds himself to the same standards that he holds everyone else. If Frank Castle was ever wrong, then Frank Castle would be Punished, simply, brutally, and finally. Meanwhile, I don't see Tony throwing himself into prison.Obviously he doesn't. He himself is a mass murderer. Are you saying he should be suicidal to keep in character? Or are you saying that he actually only kills murderers where he knows for certain that the victims were always innocents?

Frank Castle to me is a total hypocrite. He gets to choose whose lives have value to society and whose do not. And apparently, he gets to judge his own life by those standards as well. Why shouldn't he be held to the scrutiny of someone else who holds a similar view of 'justice'?

If he holds Cap in such high esteem, and Cap flat out called him a murdering scumbag... he should have taken his life right there. But didn't. Just because Cap wouldn't kill him he gets to live? No. He's supposed to take Cap's judgment that he's a murderer and apply that conclusion to his own methods... death. But didn't. Him wearing anything as an homage to Cap is an insult to Cap's legacy, and I would love to see Steve Rogers return, tear the star or flag or whatever Castle is wearing as a 'tribute to Cap' right off his body and stuff it down his throat.

[DaeJi]

I think to really find out if Frank is a hypocrite he needs to meet someone exactly like him, a murderous nut-job only hurting bad people. Depending on how Frank reacts (either letting him on his way or killing him) would prove once and for all whether he is a hypocrite or not.

[Jmacq1]

I think to really find out if Frank is a hypocrite he needs to meet someone exactly like him, a murderous nut-job only hurting bad people. Depending on how Frank reacts (either letting him on his way or killing him) would prove once and for all whether he is a hypocrite or not.

Haven't been reading Punisher MAX have you? ;)

Suffice to say, been there, done that, and he didn't bat an eye, or seem at all disturbed/annoyed by said person's activities.

He even let her borrow his shirt. ;)

But for the record, Frank doesn't believe that killing will solve all the world's ills. Just some. Particularly of the criminal variety (and usually the most reprehensible kind of criminal activities to boot).

Frank has no illusions that he's ever going to "win" his war. He's just going to do as much damage as he possibly can until he finally finds the fight he can't win. Not that any of this makes him any less psychologically damaged, but no, he isn't a hypocrite.

That's actually another huge difference between Tony and Frank: Tony actually (idealistically/foolishly) believes he can fix all the world's problems. Frank isn't quite that delusional.

[DaeJi]

Hmmm... haven't been keeping up on my Punisher: MAX, no. Well, it seems that one big difference between Castle and Stark is that Castle is a realist and Stark is an idealist.

[David Walton]

I don't think you could call Tony a hypocrite. He's always been something of a legalist. One of his first storylines forced him to testify before a congressional committee, and he basically decided that even though he didn't want to appear that no man should break the laws of his own government.

[sephirothskiller]

The Punisher is definately a bigger murderer, (though by unleashing the T-Bolt's Tony comes close.) However I respect the Punisher more because even though he's crazy, he sticks to his guns and will not comprimise his principles (unlike Tony, who is Mr. Comprimise.) I respected Rorschach in Watchmen for much the same reason.

[Magneto Rocks]

This is a sick, sick, twisted thread made by crazy people who want to give me a heart attack and ruin myh life.

[The Anti-Existence]

It is indeed.

Comparing a heroic figure like THe Punisher who works to stamp out crime and a demonic figure like Tony Stark who starts ars and employs the T-Bolts.

Just not right at all.

[DaeJi]

Tony Stark doesn't employ the Thunderbolts; CSA does. At least hate on Tony for stuff he does.

[Magneto Rocks]

I'm gonna make this brief because there are actual arguments to be had elsewhere.

Frank Castle; Brutally executes people for almost any crime from pornography to murder, has absolutely no use for the justice system, almost certainly responsible for upwards of one thousand deaths, with no qualms about taking out any who go against his sick moral code.

Tony Stark: Idealist who upholds the law, tries never to kill anyone unless it's totally unstoppable, works within the system to make a better future for all. Hired the killers you mention exactly once for a very brief period of time during which they did not once go out of control nor once attack anyone when not directed, but two of them were still savagely MURDERED byyy... Frank Castle. Oh, and talking about, "stamping out crime", Tony Stark and his proposals also caused the lowest crime rate in the US since the 40s. Canon fact.

There is not a remote ghost of a comparison to be made. Nuff said, buh bye, thanks for playing.

[The Anti-Existence]

Tony Stark: Idealist who upholds the law,

There's just no point reading any more after such a flagrantly wrong statement.

And at least Frank doesn't pretend to be something he's not. Tony will throw people in the Negative Zone without trial and be the champion for rights.

Frank kills people. Bad people. Tony starts wars to gain money.

[DaeJi]

Disprove it then; as bias as Mags is at least he backs his case, and I don't see anything wrong with it.

[Magneto Rocks]

Now who's making statements that are UTTERLY wrong in every word?

A) Tony didn't start the war
B) Tony didn't gain money- not personally

So the TWO points you tried to make are BOTH wrong.

And yes, Tony tossed heroes in the negative zone- though not personally. They were there for weeks, tops, and then they ALL got due process which was IMPOSSIBLE to give to them before then.

Frank DOES pretend to be something he's not, though.

He pretends to be a bringer of some form of justice, for one thing. He pretends to be not as bad as those he takes out.

[The Anti-Existence]

Disprove it then; as bias as Mags is at least he backs his case, and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Read the last issue of CW Fonntline or consult the billions of threads on this forum about Tony's dickery.


A) Tony didn't start the war

I never said he did. Why are you countering something not said?


B) Tony didn't gain money- not personally

Arrranging unprovoked assassinations on foreign diplomats to gain money. End of story.


So the TWO points you tried to make are BOTH wrong.

I never ONCE said Tony started the war.

So you're wrong and countered something not said at all.


Frank DOES pretend to be something he's not, though.

He pretends to be a bringer of some form of justice, for one thing. He pretends to be not as bad as those he takes out.

Frank doesn't rape people.

He doesn't run protection rackets and beat up innocent people if they don't pay.

So, how is he has bad as those he takes out?

[Exo]

Frank kills people. Bad people.

But not everyone deserves the Frank Castle treatment.

[Magneto Rocks]

Read the last issue of CW Fonntline or consult the billions of threads on this forum about Tony's dickery.

A majority opinion makes something right?


I never said he did. Why are you countering something not said?

You said he starts wars to gain money. Exactly what wsars?


Arrranging unprovoked assassinations on foreign diplomats to gain money. End of story.

Wow. EVERY aspect is wrong AGAIN. Ahem-

"Unprovoked"- the nation in question had been planting sleeper cells with bombs

"Assassination"- it was deliberately rigged to fail! So no.

"To gain money"-
A) How did it gain money?
B) Um... where the hell did this even come from? it was for reasons not REMOTELY financial!



I never ONCE said Tony started the war.

So you're wrong and countered something not said at all.

Huh.

"Tony starts wars to gain money". Sounds like it.


Frank doesn't rape people.

He doesn't run protection rackets and beat up innocent people if they don't pay.

So, how is he has bad as those he takes out?

Guess we rate "murdering over a thousand people"- which some would call an exagerrated serial murder spree- differently, eh?

[DaeJi]

But not everyone deserves the Frank Castle treatment.

Wait, I don't remember saying that!! :confused:

[Exo]

Wait, I don't remember saying that!! :confused:

My bad. I was quoting you but then scrapped that idea and went for a new statement by whats-his-name.

[The Anti-Existence]

Guess we rate "murdering over a thousand people"- which some would call an exagerrated serial murder spree- differently, eh?

When those thousand consist of the worst human beings alive, yes.

Killing the innocent and killing the guilty are very different things.

As for the rest, I had a quick glimpse through CW #7 again. Yes the assassination was designed to fail but Atlantis doesn't know that so it's irrelevant. It could have cause da war. The reasons for the possible war was to get more heroes to register and the financial part came earlier on. So sorry about that.

[The Anti-Existence]

And Mags, if you think risking a war with another nation isn't as bad as killing the scum of the Earth, then arguing with you is pointless.

[Exo]

When those thousand consist of the worst human beings alive, yes.

Not everyone the Punisher has killed were monsters. I bet the Punsher has killed alot of poor losers who only had a temporarily fall in with criminality.

[Mjolnir667]

Not everyone the Punisher has killed were monsters. I bet the Punsher has killed alot of poor losers who only had a temporarily fall in with criminality.

Frank Castle has made his slip-ups over the course of his existence, but in his line of work, that is expected. In Tony Stark's line of work, it is his duty to manufacture things, look pretty for the cameras, and be a douchebag, all of which he does exceptionally well, especially the douche part. But no where in his job description does killing fall in. Before the Illuminati and Civil War, I respected Tony as the Billionaire, alcoholic, frat boy that he was; now he is just as bad as any non-intergalactic villain in the Marvel Universe, and deserves just punishment.

P.S. Iron Man, Hulky is coming for you!

[Exo]

Frank Castle has made his slip-ups over the course of his existence, but in his line of work, that is expected.

It's not slip-ups. The Punisher kills everything that moves. That includes burglars and punks robbing liquor stores.

[brundlefly]

Frank Castle has made his slip-ups over the course of his existence, but in his line of work, that is expected. In Tony Stark's line of work, it is his duty to manufacture things, look pretty for the cameras, and be a douchebag, all of which he does exceptionally well, especially the douche part. But no where in his job description does killing fall in.

:confused: Punisher's excused for killing people since it's part of his "line of work?" I didn't realize 'vigilante mass-murderer' was a legitimate profession.

[OMGDRAN]

The thing about the punisher is that he is a realist. but the problem with the punisher is that he shouldn't have lasted this long or if he did, there should literally be no supervillians that operate in New York. He should have either gone out in a blaze of glory trying to finally kill some big name villain or New York would be villain free.

I mean, think of all the innocents that have died because superheroes never rarely take the next step and kill the worst of the villains. You may still have your moral high ground but innocents are going to suffer because of it right. Which is more important to a hero, protecting the innocent or keeping their moral line uncrossed.

[Weapon Ick]

Both are heroes with vices.

Tony Stark is addicted to alcohol.
Frank Castle is addicted to rageohol.

[FeminineMystique]

I'd say that Punisher is a better man than Tony Stark. At least Punisher's victims are criminal scum bags. I'm not saying that Punisher is a hero, but he's better than Stark by a long way. I sincerely hope the ridiculous and facist "Hero registration Act" is shut down and Stark gets whats coming to him.

[DaeJi]

Dang, does anyone think Tony even deserves to be a hero anymore?! Sure, the guy did a lot of flawed and questionable things but he only did them to protect people (and that's the reason, nothing else). As bad as he's been, he should still get a chance to redeem himself, to once more become a hero in the eyes of everyone. Frank... well... he's beyond redeeming. His course is set, and his end will be violent.