Harley Quinn created to dispel gay Joker?

[Mutate]

Someone told me that when TAS first started to air, WB demanded that a girlfriend character was created for Joker, as people were interpreting him as homosexual. Apparently Dini said it in an interview, and I personally wouldn't be suprised if it was true. Anyone else heard anything to support this? thanks!

[SMMM]

well...that's a new one.

[Hulkamaniac]

well of course Joker is gay, he has the biggest grin of all comics and laughs at almost anything. Seems like a happy fellow to me :D

[Chase]

Maybe they meant "gay" as in "happy" since Joker's all smiles and such, and by adding a woman, it would add an element of misery.


... ;)

[The Zapper]

Harley was created for the episode "Joker's favor". The reason being that the only alternative was for the Joker to dress in drag for the plot to work. Thinking that it wouldn't work out very well, Harley was created. So no, thats not what Dini said. I'll look up the actual quote for you though, and post it later.

[The Zapper]

OK, I didn't find the quote I was looking for, but here's another one on Harley's creation from the book "Batman Animated". "Bruce, Eric, Alan, and I agreed that while we never wanted to delve too deeply into the rotting offal that passes as the Joker's soul, we did want to broaden his character a bit. One way we humanized the least human of Batman's enemies was to put him in a relationship with a woman who, for whatever reasons, adores him."
Sorry it's not the quote that I promised, but still, no mention of of T.V. Execs wanting it for any reason. I'll post that other quote when I can remember where the hell I saw it.

[pitbull in a skirt]

lol @ the visual of the Joker in drag :D

[filthysize]

Yeah, the version I know is that she was created for that episode. She was supposed to just be a random henchchick and that's it, but she stuck and became a popular character.

[Citizen V]

I thought Harley was just a random character,that just got popular..especially when Dini kept using her in episodes with the Joker.As for the Joker being gay,he isnt.There are some solo episodes of the Joker,before Harley was introduced in Batman:TAS.

[swedishmeatballs]

Of course Joker is gay. His socks match his shirt!:D

But in all seriousness, Joker is beyond mundane basic human needs. It does a disservice to the character, however, I wouldn't put it past Mr.J to harbor certain desires for his Bat on any given day. Miller, Morrison, and Adams think he is.

[swedishmeatballs]

lol @ the visual of the Joker in drag :D

He was in drag . ALMOST. In the special anniversary edition of Arkham Asylum, you can see Joker donning Frank n Furter wear in the sketches.

[Captain Jim]

Someone told me that when TAS first started to air, WB demanded that a girlfriend character was created for Joker, as people were interpreting him as homosexual. Apparently Dini said it in an interview, and I personally wouldn't be suprised if it was true. Anyone else anything to support this? thnaks!

Never heard this before and I have a hard time believing it. Until and unless someone proves otherwise, I'm going to consider this a groundless rumor.

[SlightlyMad]

I remember reading about this years ago too, but can't find anything after a quick google search. The way I rermember it, the Studio Execs decided, after the Joker's first couple of appearances, that he needed a "girlfriend" to make him appear less camp/gay & told Dini/Timm et al to make this happen, which prompted them to create Harley.

How much truth there is to this I don't know. That's just the way I heard it.

[OverMaster]

Well, if that was done to macho-ize Joker, I doubt they had much success, LOL. Especially after how often Joker spurns her advances. He still is portrayed as sickly fascinated with Batman as always.

[Albert]

This is the first I have ever heard the theory put forward. Sounds pretty outrageous. It'd make a good subject for Brian Cronin's Comic Book Urban Legends.

Edit: I mentioned it in the suggestion thread, quoting you so you get credit. If you're not familiar with Comic Book Urban Legends, I'm providing a link. Brian Cronin does excellent work there.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2007/07/12/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-111/

[Mutate]

The execs were dismayed that she simply makes him appear gayer, as he ignores her for the bat.

[Lorendiac]

Harley was created for the episode "Joker's favor". The reason being that the only alternative was for the Joker to dress in drag for the plot to work. Thinking that it wouldn't work out very well, Harley was created. So no, thats not what Dini said. I'll look up the actual quote for you though, and post it later.

Okay, I think I see what happened (assuming your paraphrase of Dini's version is reasonably accurate).

It probably went like this:

1. Dini and his cohorts are pondering a plot twist for a Joker episode -- and to make it work, someone evil needs to wear feminine attire in one sequence. They would rather not confuse people by having Joker do that himself.

2. Therefore, they create "Harley Quinn" to do the honors as part of the Joker's master plan.

3. Later, Dini says what you said about the motivation for creating Harley as the Joker's cute female helper.

4. Later yet, as one fan repeats this explanation to another, and the second fan paraphrases it in conversation with a third, and the third fan garbles it in trying to explain it to a fourth, the explanation gradually mutates from "Harley was created to let the Joker avoid running around in drag in a single scene" to "Harley was created to let the Joker avoid looking very gay."

I can certainly see how "running around in drag" could be transformed into "looking very gay."

[The Zapper]

You're pretty much on the money Lorendiac.

[The Xenos]

That's about as crazy as creating a Batwoman and Batgirl to show that Batman and Robin weren't gay.

Oh.. wait..

Hey. I think it is actual irony that the original Batwoman supposedly was created so that Batman and Robin didn't seem gay and yet this new one is introduced as a lesbian. That's quite interesting how times change.

[Captain Jim]

That's about as crazy as creating a Batwoman and Batgirl to show that Batman and Robin weren't gay.

Oh.. wait..

Are you sure that's the case? It's not like Batman and the original Batwoman had a serious romantic relationship. I seem to recall Bruce and Kathy having some casual dates, but nothing all that serious. (And she didn't know Bruce was Batman.)

But even if it is true, it would be a reflection of the times. This was just a few years after the infamous Seduction of the Innocent and the bizarre accusations about Batman and Robin.

Hey. I think it is actual irony that the original Batwoman supposedly was created so that Batman and Robin didn't seem gay and yet this new one is introduced as a lesbian. That's quite interesting how times change.

If true, it is ironic indeed.

[Rattlehead]

That's about as crazy as creating a Batwoman and Batgirl to show that Batman and Robin weren't gay.

Oh.. wait..

Hey. I think it is actual irony that the original Batwoman supposedly was created so that Batman and Robin didn't seem gay and yet this new one is introduced as a lesbian. That's quite interesting how times change.


You're confusing Batwoman with Aunt Harriet. Alfred was deliberately killed off and Aunt Harriet brought into the Wayne household since 2 grown men and a young boy living in a female-less house started raising some questions. Cronin covered it a while back in Comic Urban Legends Revealed.

[Mutate]

I have to wonder, what is it like for someone who knows nothing about Batman to turn on the TV and see a pink suited, lipstick wearing villain with a camp, theatrical voice running aorund commiting sadistic crimes.

[Captain Jim]

You're confusing Batwoman with Aunt Harriet. Alfred was deliberately killed off and Aunt Harriet brought into the Wayne household since 2 grown men and a young boy living in a female-less house started raising some questions. Cronin covered it a while back in Comic Urban Legends Revealed.

I'd like some verification of this.

[OverMaster]

I have to wonder, what is it like for someone who knows nothing about Batman to turn on the TV and see a pink suited, lipstick wearing villain with a camp, theatrical voice running aorund commiting sadistic crimes.

Hard to say. Almost everyone around the planet knows Batman to some degree, and pretty darn everyone can recognize a clown without instantly thinking of him as gay, so...

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

From what I remember Harley was based on Dini's friend Arleen Sorkin and she became so popular that she cross over into the comics

[The Zapper]

Yes, a lot of her manerizims come from Arleen Sorkin, who of course is the voice behind the clown girl. It ended up that all the other directors wanted to do stories with Harley which is why she started having episodes without the Joker. My source is again "Batman Animated".

[Rattlehead]

I'd like some verification of this.

From wiki, of course

"Despite the longstanding legend that the character was created for the television series to reduce the potential for homosexual interpretations of the Wayne/Grayson relationship, the character had actually been created two years earlier for the comic book in order to reduce the potential for homosexual interpretations of the Wayne/Grayson relationship. Some details from the television series (her last name, her status as a widow) were added to the comic stories in Detective Comics #373"

[Captain Jim]

From wiki, of course

"Despite the longstanding legend that the character was created for the television series to reduce the potential for homosexual interpretations of the Wayne/Grayson relationship, the character had actually been created two years earlier for the comic book in order to reduce the potential for homosexual interpretations of the Wayne/Grayson relationship. Some details from the television series (her last name, her status as a widow) were added to the comic stories in Detective Comics #373"

Well, that's interesting, but where did *they* get it? I don't consider Wikipedia an authority in and of itself.

[The Zapper]

I have a book on the history of Batman, and I'll look threw it tomorrow (if I can find it) and look for a quote confirming this. I know it's talked about some, but I don't remember them talking about it at any great length.

[Magneto_X]

I could believe it.

There's at least one version of The Joker who *was* sexually infatuated with Bats: in Dark Knight Returns.

[Magneto_X]

Sorry it's not the quote that I promised, but still, no mention of of T.V. Execs wanting it for any reason. I'll post that other quote when I can remember where the hell I saw it.

On one hand it does sound logical, on the other I doubt he'd say something like that if the execs didn't wnat it known to the public. Anyone who said it could be blacklisted.

[Magneto_X]

Hey. I think it is actual irony that the original Batwoman supposedly was created so that Batman and Robin didn't seem gay and yet this new one is introduced as a lesbian. That's quite interesting how times change.

Harley Quinn isn't a lesbian, she's bi-sexual.

[Citizen V]

Where did that come from?Simply because Harley likes to be around The Joker and Poison Ivy?

[The Zapper]

On one hand it does sound logical, on the other I doubt he'd say something like that if the execs didn't wnat it known to the public. Anyone who said it could be blacklisted.

Well, no one has any quote of anyone saying anything about Harley being created for that reason. So, unless someone can find one, I'll keep believing her own creator on why she was created. Oh, and Citizen V, there have been plenty of little hints that Harley swings both ways. Nothing ever flat out said, but enough hints that it's pretty obvious.

[Albert]

Oh, and Citizen V, there have been plenty of little hints that Harley swings both ways. Nothing ever flat out said, but enough hints that it's pretty obvious.

My favorite was revealed during the commentary track for "Robin's Reckoning". The topic of the censors came up. It mentions that in one ep. Joker is leaning over Ivy and Harley, and remarks "My my my, what have you two busy beavers been up to?" [Quoting from memory] The line got by the censors, but when it came time to record it, everyone agreed it was going just a wee bit too far, and "beavers" was changed to "bees".

[SMMM]

My favorite was revealed during the commentary track for "Robin's Reckoning". The topic of the censors came up. It mentions that in one ep. Joker is leaning over Ivy and Harley, and remarks "My my my, what have you two busy beavers been up to?" [Quoting from memory] The line got by the censors, but when it came time to record it, everyone agreed it was going just a wee bit too far, and "beavers" was changed to "bees".

I'd say this is my favorite.

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/7080/batles2yj5.jpg

[stealthwise]

To be honest, I found the whole Joker/Harley dynamic funny for the most part, but sickening in the few scenes where Joker is portrayed as an abusive lout and Harley as the infatuated victim. The way that it unfolds often moves past Demetrius/Helena territory into domestic abuse quite uncomfortably for me, and makes me honestly hate the Joker, which I suppose might be what they're going for.

[Pyro]

I have to wonder, what is it like for someone who knows nothing about Batman to turn on the TV and see a pink suited, lipstick wearing villain with a camp, theatrical voice running aorund commiting sadistic crimes.Well, when you put it that way... lol!:p

[swedishmeatballs]

To be honest, I found the whole Joker/Harley dynamic funny for the most part, but sickening in the few scenes where Joker is portrayed as an abusive lout and Harley as the infatuated victim. The way that it unfolds often moves past Demetrius/Helena territory into domestic abuse quite uncomfortably for me, and makes me honestly hate the Joker, which I suppose might be what they're going for.

Question, the romanticized abuse makes you hate the Joker? He's a villain, of course he's gonna be the the one that is hated/and loved but I hope you're not suggesting that you feel sorry for Harley (or women in her shoes) because she lets herself get into this. Lots of women do which is why I find it kind of unnerving that non comicbook readers find her more relatable and cute than someone who is more proactive like Catwoman (or even Poison Ivy, Talia doesn't count). I have never seen Harley go back to the Joker against her will.

[swedishmeatballs]

I could believe it.

There's at least one version of The Joker who *was* sexually infatuated with Bats: in Dark Knight Returns.

Joker has said on more than one occassion that he loves his Bat. The other example being in Broken City. Also, wasn't there one comic were it heavily implied that Joker was jealous of Catwoman?:p :eek:

[Slortex]

Question, the romanticized abuse makes you hate the Joker? He's a villain, of course he's gonna be the the one that is hated/and loved but I hope you're not suggesting that you feel sorry for Harley (or women in her shoes) because she lets herself get into this. Lots of women do which is why I find it kind of unnerving that non comicbook readers find her more relatable and cute than someone who is more proactive like Catwoman (or even Poison Ivy, Talia doesn't count). I have never seen Harley go back to the Joker against her will.

I guess this is a bit off topic, but you don't feel the least bit sorry for abused women who return to their abusers? Its a difficult thing to understand, but the psyche of these women are very damaged. Yes, they "voluntarily" return, but its not easy for them to simply up and walk away. For whatever reason, they no longer give weight to their own desires and happiness and return to these terrible relationships to please their abusers. Its kind of like stockholm syndrome, where captives defend their tormentors because they think, on some level, that if they please them enough their captors will let them go.

I mean, its one thing to not feel sorry for Harley, but to extend that to "women in her shoes" because they "let themselves get into" those sort of relationships is a pretty cold and callous way of looking at a difficult situation.

Certainly, women like Catwoman deserve to be recognized for their strength, to be above pity for people in an abusive relationship just rubs me the wrong way.

Edit: If I misunderstood your position, I apologize, but that's the meaning I took from your post.

[swedishmeatballs]

Off topic post

No, you didn't misunderstand me because that's exactly how I feel. Ever see an episode of the Dr. Phil house when he houses couples on the brink of divorce because the husband is a slob and the woman is spineless? It's that kind of thing that really sets me off where there is emphasis on 'the family' than leaving a toxic relationship. FYI, if it was the other way around I would have been yelling even louder at the TV set. I'm not denying that while Harley's relationship with the Joker brought on more adult and darker themes to children's TV, but when you keep her in that niche, she becomes a cliche character and it becomes redundant for her and the Joker, which is why I'm glad Dini is writing her in Countdown.

I am not putting down ALL women (or men) who have been in abused relationships before, it's the ones who justify their situations that grinds my gears. Look at Tina Turner, she was abused by her husband Ike for decades until she finally got the guts to leave and I applaud her efforts. For me, the situtaion is similar to that of overweight people and food. They are both in toxic relationships but is ultimately their choice for being where they are, and I really have no sympathy for either. Sorry if I sound so callous but that is ultimately how I feel.

[filthysize]

Joker has said on more than one occassion that he loves his Bat. The other example being in Broken City. Also, wasn't there one comic were it heavily implied that Joker was jealous of Catwoman?:p :eek:

You can thank Judd Wynick for that.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/HyperKahler/Comic%20Scans/OutsidersV33-14NastyNat.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/HyperKahler/Comic%20Scans/OutsidersV33-15NastyNat.jpg

[Captain Jim]

Off topic post

No, you didn't misunderstand me because that's exactly how I feel. Ever see an episode of the Dr. Phil house when he houses couples on the brink of divorce because the husband is a slob and the woman is spineless? It's that kind of thing that really sets me off where there is emphasis on 'the family' than leaving a toxic relationship. FYI, if it was the other way around I would have been yelling even louder at the TV set. I'm not denying that while Harley's relationship with the Joker brought on more adult and darker themes to children's TV, but when you keep her in that niche, she becomes a cliche character and it becomes redundant for her and the Joker, which is why I'm glad Dini is writing her in Countdown.

I am not putting down ALL women (or men) who have been in abused relationships before, it's the ones who justify their situations that grinds my gears. Look at Tina Turner, she was abused by her husband Ike for decades until she finally got the guts to leave and I applaud her efforts. For me, the situtaion is similar to that of overweight people and food. They are both in toxic relationships but is ultimately their choice for being where they are, and I really have no sympathy for either. Sorry if I sound so callous but that is ultimately how I feel.

All I can say is that your understanding of the human psyche is very naive, simplistic and callous. But I think we'd better get back on topic.

[Vulgar]

It always amazed me some of the innuendo's they got away with on the animated show. I remember one episode where Harley Quinn climbed on the table in front of the Joker and asked him if he wanted to ride his harley. I took that to mean that he's done it(or her) before. Of course, other bat villians don't have women throwing themselves at 'em and they don't come across as gay.

[Brian Cronin]

You're confusing Batwoman with Aunt Harriet. Alfred was deliberately killed off and Aunt Harriet brought into the Wayne household since 2 grown men and a young boy living in a female-less house started raising some questions. Cronin covered it a while back in Comic Urban Legends Revealed.

No, I didn't. :)

I do have the lowdown on that whole scene, though. I'm sure it'll eventually make its way into the column!

-Brian

[Albert]

No, I didn't. :)

I do have the lowdown on that whole scene, though. I'm sure it'll eventually make its way into the column!

-Brian

An Urban Legend about Comic Urban Legends Revealed!

[swedishmeatballs]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/tintti/misc/jokerscans_honeycakes_etc.jpg

Here are some scans I found. Enjoy! Click until you get the orange sign to enlarge them.

[swedishmeatballs]

All I can say is that your understanding of the human psyche is very naive, simplistic and callous. But I think we'd better get back on topic.

I'll take callous, thank you. :)

[dancj]

I could believe it.

There's at least one version of The Joker who *was* sexually infatuated with Bats: in Dark Knight Returns.
You can thank Judd Wynick for that.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/tintti/misc/jokerscans_honeycakes_etc.jpg

Here are some scans I found. Enjoy! Click until you get the orange sign to enlarge them.
I don't take any of that to suggest that The Joker is gay. More that he's got this weird completely asexual obsession with Batman

[Keehar]

I don't take any of that to suggest that The Joker is gay. More that he's got this weird completely asexual obsession with Batman

I agree. I don't believe Joker's homosexual at all.

[OverMaster]

Harley Quinn isn't a lesbian, she's bi-sexual.

I think he was talking about the lesbian Batwoman, not Harley.

[The Zapper]

Jeez. It's only been shown a hundred times that Joker is obsessed with Batman. I don't think anybody is even debating that. If you think that instantly makes him gay, then you don't really get the character. Unless it's a poorly written story, you'll never understand what really going on in his head. Every time some writer tries to really explain the Joker's motives, it's sooner or later retconed or just ignored. Even Morrison's latest little Joker tale is all ready being forgotten. Arkham Asylum a Serious House for a Serious Earth was great because you get an idea of what Joker's doing and thinking, but you never flat out get told. In his latest attempt with the character Morrison tried to explain exactly what is in Joker's head. Most people hated it, and we've all ready seen Joker back to his "normal" self. Anyway, sorry for the long post.

[OverMaster]

Jeez. It's only been shown a hundred times that Joker is obsessed with Batman. I don't think anybody is even debating that. If you think that instantly makes him gay, then you don't really get the character. Unless it's a poorly written story, you'll never understand what really going on in his head. Every time some writer tries to really explain the Joker's motives, it's sooner or later retconed or just ignored. Even Morrison's latest little Joker tale is all ready being forgotten. Arkham Asylum a Serious House for a Serious Earth was great because you get an idea of what Joker's doing and thinking, but you never flat out get told. In his latest attempt with the character Morrison tried to explain exactly what is in Joker's head. Most people hated it, and we've all ready seen Joker back to his "normal" self. Anyway, sorry for the long post.

Oh, I think what confuses most people is the fact Joker will gladly make gay jokes about his own obsession with Batman (again, Winnick doesn't get the character, so that's why I consider Joker being offended at that comment from Luthor OOC). It doesn't mean he really is *in love* with Batman. Joker will make sick jokes about everything, even about himself.

[swedishmeatballs]

Oh, I think what confuses most people is the fact Joker will gladly make gay jokes about his own obsession with Batman (again, Winnick doesn't get the character, so that's why I consider Joker being offended at that comment from Luthor OOC). It doesn't mean he really is *in love* with Batman. Joker will make sick jokes about everything, even about himself.

No, you're just offened that Luthor knows what makes the Joker tick. It's funny how people will defend heterotude with red hot passion and turn a blind eye when this sort of thing pops up.

Joker loves Bats, and he also hates him, is obsessed with him, sees him as a worthy adversary, and even respects him. Why is it so hard to add that to the cards?

[Citizen V]

Personally,its hard to believe the possibility that the Joker may be a homosexual.That`s worth looking into..but its hard to accept it..if its true at all.

[witchboy]

I find it hard to accept that the Joker may be heterosexual .

[dancj]

The Joker isn't heterosexual or homosexual. He's completely asexual. He has an obsession with Batman and I can easily see that it could upset him to think that Bats loves Catwoman more, but there is nothing sexual going on in The Joker's mind in the slightest.

[OverMaster]

No, you're just offened that Luthor knows what makes the Joker tick. It's funny how people will defend heterotude with red hot passion and turn a blind eye when this sort of thing pops up.

Joker loves Bats, and he also hates him, is obsessed with him, sees him as a worthy adversary, and even respects him. Why is it so hard to add that to the cards?

What dancj said. You should know me better before accusing me of being some sort of homophobe. It doesn't have to do with sexuality, but with the macabre sense of commitment Joker has to Batman, which can be called anything but love.

Really, for Joker, only two things really do count: Batman as his counterpart and 'the joke'. Trying to put sexual motives on him is like trying to make him interested in money itself (for him, money is only a tool for his goals) or politics (again, he only will use a political theme if it suits his current gag, but otherwise he has no interest. Same thing with sex and related matters).

[Captain Jim]

Yeah, I agree with above two posts as well.

[Wenatchee the Hatchet]

For a guy like Joker it would seem that in his mind there are only two options regarding people. There are people you really hate, in which you do everything in your power to kill them, and there are people you don't hate. Joker may think Batman "loves" him simply because Batman won't kill him. I think that's an element of the character that could probably get some exploration. It may or may not have anything to do with Joker's sexuality but it's an interesting dynamic. If fans have wondered why Batman doesn't just kill the Joker then the Joker must certainly have thought about it.

[witchboy]

But theJoker probably knows and understands that Batman doesn't kill other people either , although the Joker has probably deserved killing more than Batman ' s other foes too , considering what he did to Babs and Jason .

[swedishmeatballs]

Personally,its hard to believe the possibility that the Joker may be a homosexual.That`s worth looking into..but its hard to accept it..if its true at all.

Wasn't it O'Neil or Adams who said that under his tenure that was a flamer? It has just as much merit as Engleheart who said he saw the Joker as asexual. I never put Harley into the equation for several reasons.

[swedishmeatballs]

I find it hard to accept that the Joker may be heterosexual .

That interpretation works strictly in animation and no complaints here, but in comics, things are far more fluid and darker.

The only two people Joker ever has strong passions for IMHO are his first wife Jeannie and Bats.

[swedishmeatballs]

What dancj said. You should know me better before accusing me of being some sort of homophobe. It doesn't have to do with sexuality, but with the macabre sense of commitment Joker has to Batman, which can be called anything but love.

Really, for Joker, only two things really do count: Batman as his counterpart and 'the joke'. Trying to put sexual motives on him is like trying to make him interested in money itself (for him, money is only a tool for his goals) or politics (again, he only will use a political theme if it suits his current gag, but otherwise he has no interest. Same thing with sex and related matters).

Fair enough but making a comment about someone who works in the industry, whether you like him or not, sounded like an immature retort to justify your views, and like I said earlier, it doesn't have to define the character as a whole but it as an element, otherwise, why are we having this convo?

[The Xenos]

Wow. How did I forget the whole Harley / Ivy thing?

Yes, a lot of her manerizims come from Arleen Sorkin, who of course is the voice behind the clown girl. It ended up that all the other directors wanted to do stories with Harley which is why she started having episodes without the Joker. My source is again "Batman Animated".

"Batman: Animated" is such an amazing book!

Well, that's interesting, but where did *they* get it? I don't consider Wikipedia an authority in and of itself.

Bah. You an my college writing professor. Quit being such squares man! Wikipedia should count as a scholarly journal. Embrace Wikiality! :rolleyes:

[OverMaster]

Fair enough but making a comment about someone who works in the industry, whether you like him or not, sounded like an immature retort to justify your views, and like I said earlier, it doesn't have to define the character as a whole but it as an element, otherwise, why are we having this convo?

I just said Winnick uses to make his Bat-characters, especially the Joker, too OOC. (I liked what little I saw of his Green Lantern work, OTOH). What's wrong with stating that opinion? It's far from being a personal attack. I don't see where was I being 'immature', particularly when you are the one who seems to be drawing this to the ground of implying personal attacks from others.

Or are you going to say, for instance, the Joker's portrait through the whole Red Hood fiasco was a great way to portray the character?

[PunkPoserStyle]

I doubt it was intended this way, but I thought the Harley relationship would've added an irony among the many others between Batman and the Joker. That being in spite of his obvious insanity and apparent inhumanity, the Joker has this woman who is totally infatuated with him and they have this steady relationship of sorts. Then there's Batman, who can never really have that kind of relationship or connection with a woman because of his crusade AGAINST the Joker's brand of criminality.

I find it hard to just ignore Harley Quinn when thinking of the Joker. Sure she may have came from the animated series originally, but so did Mr. Freeze's new origin. Both I think are now great contributions to the actual comics canon. She's made so many appearances with the Joker, and she's even had her own long lasting mini-series. She can't just be disregarded when talking of the Joker's character.

[swedishmeatballs]

I doubt it was intended this way, but I thought the Harley relationship would've added an irony among the many others between Batman and the Joker. That being in spite of his obvious insanity and apparent inhumanity, the Joker has this woman who is totally infatuated with him and they have this steady relationship of sorts. Then there's Batman, who can never really have that kind of relationship or connection with a woman because of his crusade AGAINST the Joker's brand of criminality.

I find it hard to just ignore Harley Quinn when thinking of the Joker. Sure she may have came from the animated series originally, but so did Mr. Freeze's new origin. Both I think are now great contributions to the actual comics canon. She's made so many appearances with the Joker, and she's even had her own long lasting mini-series. She can't just be disregarded when talking of the Joker's character.

That's the problem. Mr. Freeze hasn't developed as a serious villain because he gets stagnant with Nora. It's the same thing with Harley and the Joker. Keep her in that abusive cycle and she gets boring. The Joker has had an almost seven decade fluid history. Harley hasn't added to that void because he hasn't reciprocated her feelings and nor will he ever. It hasn't grown and it hasn't added depth to the Joker. When Countdown finishes, we'll see if HQ has grown and developed.

[swedishmeatballs]

I just said Winnick uses to make his Bat-characters, especially the Joker, too OOC. (I liked what little I saw of his Green Lantern work, OTOH). What's wrong with stating that opinion? It's far from being a personal attack. I don't see where was I being 'immature', particularly when you are the one who seems to be drawing this to the ground of implying personal attacks from others.

Or are you going to say, for instance, the Joker's portrait through the whole Red Hood fiasco was a great way to portray the character?

I am far from a Winnick fan, I have both hated and disliked his work. I'm neutral the Red Hood fiasco by the way. It's a fun read depending on my mood, despite its present outcome. I enjoyed some of his Outsider's stuff. I just find it rather nitpicky. I think the critical point lies in how Winnick executed his work. For instance I thought he nailed the characterizations (i.e. Bruce, Nightwing Joker's dialog especially) pretty well but I wasn't too crazy with what he made them do other times. (At the end of 650 explosion which leads us to this Infinite Crisis)

[PunkPoserStyle]

That's the problem. Mr. Freeze hasn't developed as a serious villain because he gets stagnant with Nora. It's the same thing with Harley and the Joker. Keep her in that abusive cycle and she gets boring. The Joker has had an almost seven decade fluid history. Harley hasn't added to that void because he hasn't reciprocated her feelings and nor will he ever. It hasn't grown and it hasn't added depth to the Joker. When Countdown finishes, we'll see if HQ has grown and developed.

He'd be even less of a villain without that motivation. He's emotionally cold as well, what else would he care about? How would the Joker reciprocate his feelings? Take Harley out to a movie? I doubt the Joker's the type to say, "I love you too, Harl." How much depth are you expecting for the Joker? If Harley Quinn was never created, I'm sure we wouldn't miss what we never had. But if Harley was to get killed off, I doubt the Joker himself would change dramatically, but he'd lose that character to play off of and potential should Harley ever make a development.

Besides, the Joker's gotten further with Harley then Batman has with Catwoman. Rawr.

[dancj]

For a guy like Joker it would seem that in his mind there are only two options regarding people. There are people you really hate, in which you do everything in your power to kill them, and there are people you don't hate.
I don't think the Joker hates anyone.
She's made so many appearances with the Joker, and she's even had her own long lasting mini-series. She can't just be disregarded when talking of the Joker's character.
She can be really. The Joker completely disregards her. OTOH, you can't discount The Joker when talking of Harley

[witchboy]

Harley actually had a regualar series for a couple of years , where she left the Joler and made a go of it on her own . It was a real hoot for awhile , with lots of ongoing gags like Harley 's gang of thugs where at least one would die every issue . For awhile Harley moved to Metropolis where she got a job at the Daily Planet and dated Jimmy Olsen , all the while as insane as ever. The Dodsons did the art for awhile too . I totally recommend the back issues .
Personally I adore Harley , she brings a great perspective to the story and her prescence gives the Joker someone to talk to , a real relationship even if it is highly disfunctional and mostly one sided .

[PunkPoserStyle]

Batman didn't need Robin for awhile, doesn't mean Robin isn't part of his character.

The Joker disregards a lot of things, but it's not like he completely IGNORES Harley, they've done a lot together, there's an interesting dynamic between them. And whatever comes out of Countdown for Harley, she may be able to bring to Mr. J.

[swedishmeatballs]

Batman didn't need Robin for awhile, doesn't mean Robin isn't part of his character.

The Joker disregards a lot of things, but it's not like he completely IGNORES Harley, they've done a lot together, there's an interesting dynamic between them. And whatever comes out of Countdown for Harley, she may be able to bring to Mr. J.

Yes, but Robin and Bats have had a history that spans over six decades. Yeah, take out the campy stuff and you have some really trying moments.
There were some real father/son moments with Dick Grayson, Tim Drake and even Jason. How can you put Joker and Harley in the same level? i hope you're not suggesting that despite all the crap Joker flings at Harey that the abuse is "cute" and "deep". FYI, I started reading comics because of these two but as I opened up to other characers and books, well, "things change":p I read this interview on newsarama about the Black Canary wedding and someone made a comment about wanting to see 'those two crazy kids married.'

It just made my skin crawl.

I like HQ too but i wouldn't put her up in the same caliber as Robin, much less Talia (I character i really don't like, mind you)

[swedishmeatballs]

Harley actually had a regualar series for a couple of years , where she left the Joler and made a go of it on her own . It was a real hoot for awhile , with lots of ongoing gags like Harley 's gang of thugs where at least one would die every issue . For awhile Harley moved to Metropolis where she got a job at the Daily Planet and dated Jimmy Olsen , all the while as insane as ever. The Dodsons did the art for awhile too . I totally recommend the back issues .
Personally I adore Harley , she brings a great perspective to the story and her prescence gives the Joker someone to talk to , a real relationship even if it is highly disfunctional and mostly one sided .

So you're saying that you're okay with domestic beatings?

[witchboy]

That's pretty harsh .
I am absolutely not ok with domestic abuse , and would rather not see the Joker hurt Harley . I do think that Harley is a great character , with or without the Joker . I was a big fan of her solo series where she was seperated from the Joker . I enjoy the Joker more when Harley 's around .

[dancj]

So you're saying that you're okay with domestic beatings?
You do know we're talking about fictional characters right?

[dustindoll]

Damn, took a while to read through all the arguments.

I'm another one who heard the Harley-makes-for-hetro argument. I read it on Wikipedia though, and while I do like the idea of her being created to make the Joker appear straight, I can't see why the writers would turn around and add lesbian innuendo to the mix. Kinda defeats the purpose, ne?

Hmmm... domestic violence? I don't see the Joker being in any kind of relationship where he wasn't violent. I mean...he’s the Joker! He gassed an entire kindergarten class (according to one writer, and I gots a feeling y'all are gonna want me to dig up the quote -_-; ). He’s evil. ‘nuff said.

As far as my fandom goes, the cycle of abuse just makes the moments where Joker's not a douche and Harley's not a doormat all the more special.

JOKER SHOWING LOVE FOR HARLEY MOMENT: Emperor Joker arc (Joker gets insane amounts of power, p'wns the world). While hardly anyone remembers what happened, Joker did act sweet with Harley. Before he was about to destroy the world he kissed her one last time and turned her into a constellation so she wouldn't get killed too.

Once again, I know that no one other than Superman in the universe remembers wha happen, but the joker was his usual self when he did all that with the luv. Not supporting any arguments of sexuality, just pointing out that Harley brings out a different side to the Clown Prince.

And I have a book about Batman Comic history, haven't read it in years but it did say that some bat-female (woman, girl, maid...) was created as an answer to the all-male-cast=gey theory. So, while Harley may not have been created for this purpose, at some point in DC time, a female character was. Maybe some wires got crossed on the way.

Ps. How can you not see the flaming gayness in the Joker? Srsly? You don't see it?! :confused: He's practically a one-man gay pride parade! ;)

[Captain Jim]

Welcome to CBR, Dustindoll. :)

[Pink Bat Max]

Ps. How can you not see the flaming gayness in the Joker? Srsly? You don't see it?! :confused: He's practically a one-man gay pride parade! ;)

I have to go with Pied Piper, when he effectively came out to Wally: I don't think Joker's gay, because I don't think he feels /love/. And, well. If he finds anything erotic, it's ironic murder, so there ya go. I always figured his thing with Harley was an ego trip, nothing more.

[SlightlyMad]

And I have a book about Batman Comic history, haven't read it in years but it did say that some bat-female (woman, girl, maid...) was created as an answer to the all-male-cast=gey theory. So, while Harley may not have been created for this purpose, at some point in DC time, a female character was. Maybe some wires got crossed on the way.


I think what you're referring to there is Aunt Harriet in the 1960s TV show (it wasn't clear whether she was Bruce or Dick's aunt) who was brought in to stop any idle chatter about 2 young men & their butler living together in the Manor.

[OverMaster]

I mean...he’s the Joker! He gassed an entire kindergarten class (according to one writer, and I gots a feeling y'all are gonna want me to dig up the quote -_-; ).

No prob. I'll do it for you. It was quoted in the first arc of Garth Ennis' Hitman series, when someone hired Hitman to off Joker. Of course, it was a fake hit, a trap for Hitman, so the info *might* have been fake as well. But with the Joker, you never know.

[Pink Bat Max]

I think what you're referring to there is Aunt Harriet in the 1960s TV show (it wasn't clear whether she was Bruce or Dick's aunt) who was brought in to stop any idle chatter about 2 young men & their butler living together in the Manor.

Which... well. Having a pair of bachelors devoted to taking care of their maiden aunt? It only further 'gays up' the subtext for me.

Also, Aunt Harriet predates the TV show, in the comics.

[metalhead_dave743]

You can thank Judd Wynick for that.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/HyperKahler/Comic%20Scans/OutsidersV33-14NastyNat.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/HyperKahler/Comic%20Scans/OutsidersV33-15NastyNat.jpg

Sweet, that deserves to go in the pwned thread on the Rumbles board.

[Captain Jim]

I think what you're referring to there is Aunt Harriet in the 1960s TV show (it wasn't clear whether she was Bruce or Dick's aunt) who was brought in to stop any idle chatter about 2 young men & their butler living together in the Manor.

She was Dick's aunt; it was clear in the comics, which is where she debuted.

[swedishmeatballs]

That's pretty harsh .
I am absolutely not ok with domestic abuse , and would rather not see the Joker hurt Harley . I do think that Harley is a great character , with or without the Joker . I was a big fan of her solo series where she was seperated from the Joker . I enjoy the Joker more when Harley 's around .

I do enjoy here to without the Joker. She's a character that needs a lot of room to blossom. Like I said, I'm okay with the animated version but in comics, it becomes redundant. Also, I find it disturbing/annoying that fans can't look beyond the cutesiness and think 'OMG! He abuses her but it's so cuuuuuuuuuuute!'. Seriously, doesn't anybody else pick up on that? She is showing great promise in Countdown and I can't wait to see her training in with Holly and FYI, in San Diego Dini mentioned, straight out, no word of lie, that he was "...tired of writing her with the Joker...." I'm all elated. It's really pitiful that alot of people can't look beyond that lens for Harley. She has great potential.

[swedishmeatballs]

You do know we're talking about fictional characters right?

Real or not, I don't think it has a place especially when a female character is subjugated and is practically kept in that cycle. It infuriates me more that no one looks beyond that which contributes to the chronic apathy, the female disgust me especially.

[Southpaw Crane]

"...the female digust me especially." It may be because I'm tired, but that last statement made me confused. I think I was agreeing with you, so what did you mean? :confused:
Also, I know we've all moved far away from the origins of Harley/Joker campness thing, but doesn't anybody else who's seen that episode think that the gayest thing in it is Joker jumping out of that cake, stripper-style?!

[Darth Joker]

A few points...

1) The Joker is a vicious serial killer. More or less adding 'wife-beating' to that really doesn't change the overall moral assessment of the character. The Joker is about as close to pure evil as a fictional character not based off of Satan himself can get. If you didn't already hate the Joker for what he does, I don't see how wife-beating puts it over the top for you. I mean, wife-beating is absolutely awful, but is it really worse than mass killing five year olds? Like I explained on the Rumbles board once, I love the Joker for being a great villain... certainly not for being a nice guy, or anything like that. Heck, if there's any DC character that it's Ok to show as a wife-beater, the Joker is that character (Luthor would probably be next on the list).

2) The Joker has a supreme fixation on Batman that borders on homosexual, if it isn't actually homosexual. It's not just Wynick that puts forward that... it's also the freakin' The Dark Knight Returns by Miller. The Joker was using romantic terms like "my sweet" to refer to Batman in that.

I think that the Joker is largely beyond sex (i.e. he has no interest in it, in general), but Batman might be the lone exception to that. He may have had some sex with Harley Quinn, but if so, it was probably more to satisfy her than to satisfy himself (i.e. to stop her from complaining about lack of sex, basically - I certainly got the impression from Batman: TAS that Harley wanted a sexual relationship much more than the Joker did).

The Joker is pretty much asexual, but as with a lot of other things in his life, if there is an exception... it's Batman.


3) Joker and Luthor have an unique bond of sorts due to how closely aligned their respective arch-enemies are. They've teamed up on numerous occassions. Luthor is also a very intelligent man who, being evil himself, understands evil better than a lot of the heroes do. It makes sense to me that Luthor would have a better sense of what makes the Joker tick than almost anybody else. Luthor is smart enough to know this too, and probably loves the fact that he can push Joker's buttons unlike most people can.

4) Lorendiac pretty much nailed where the "Harley Quinn was created to make the Joker seem less gay" idea is coming from. If Harley Quinn was truly created to make the Joker seem less gay, they would have showed the Joker being more responsive to her sexual advances.

[elias_A]

If I understand correctly, some of you argue that since Harley is abused by the Joker, "approving" of that relationship means approving abuse in marriages.

Already in BTAS Harley is shown trying to get away from Joker and become an independent person. However, the endings of Harlequinade and Mad Love might seem "romantic" with them being reconciled.

However, I would say that what we feel is not a romantic "Ahh, ain't it cute those two being together again". I don't think one has to be ashamed to like Harley and her obsession with the Joker. Obviously that is an unhealthy obsession. But it's a psychological highly interesting flaw, and makes a great story.
When the Joker shows affection for Harley that doesn't mean he can feel love or even compassion. It means that Harley has managed to enter his world and play his own game so well that he considers her not his equal, but worthy to play along for the moment. That recognition, although she mistakes it for love, is what Harley craves. The ending of Harlequinade is not really romantic. It is a defeat for Harley in the sense that she didn't succeed to kill Mr.J. And it is a defeat because she returns to their unhealthy, undignified relationship. But it is also a triumph for her because she managed to impress him, a triumph in the sense of a lion tamer that managed to put his head inside the lions mouth and survived.

[swedishmeatballs]

"...the female digust me especially." It may be because I'm tired, but that last statement made me confused. I think I was agreeing with you, so what did you mean? :confused:
Also, I know we've all moved far away from the origins of Harley/Joker campness thing, but doesn't anybody else who's seen that episode think that the gayest thing in it is Joker jumping out of that cake, stripper-style?!

Heh, I guess my temper simmered through. What I meant was that I don't like how female fans like to glorify the abuse.

And as for the second part, NOT AT ALL!!:eek: :cool: :p

[swedishmeatballs]

A few points...

1) The Joker is a vicious serial killer. More or less adding 'wife-beating' to that really doesn't change the overall moral assessment of the character. The Joker is about as close to pure evil as a fictional character not based off of Satan himself can get. If you didn't already hate the Joker for what he does, I don't see how wife-beating puts it over the top for you. I mean, wife-beating is absolutely awful, but is it really worse than mass killing five year olds? Like I explained on the Rumbles board once, I love the Joker for being a great villain... certainly not for being a nice guy, or anything like that. Heck, if there's any DC character that it's Ok to show as a wife-beater, the Joker is that character (Luthor would probably be next on the list).

2) The Joker has a supreme fixation on Batman that borders on homosexual, if it isn't actually homosexual. It's not just Wynick that puts forward that... it's also the freakin' The Dark Knight Returns by Miller. The Joker was using romantic terms like "my sweet" to refer to Batman in that.

I think that the Joker is largely beyond sex (i.e. he has no interest in it, in general), but Batman might be the lone exception to that. He may have had some sex with Harley Quinn, but if so, it was probably more to satisfy her than to satisfy himself (i.e. to stop her from complaining about lack of sex, basically - I certainly got the impression from Batman: TAS that Harley wanted a sexual relationship much more than the Joker did).

The Joker is pretty much asexual, but as with a lot of other things in his life, if there is an exception... it's Batman.


3) Joker and Luthor have an unique bond of sorts due to how closely aligned their respective arch-enemies are. They've teamed up on numerous occassions. Luthor is also a very intelligent man who, being evil himself, understands evil better than a lot of the heroes do. It makes sense to me that Luthor would have a better sense of what makes the Joker tick than almost anybody else. Luthor is smart enough to know this too, and probably loves the fact that he can push Joker's buttons unlike most people can.

4) Lorendiac pretty much nailed where the "Harley Quinn was created to make the Joker seem less gay" idea is coming from. If Harley Quinn was truly created to make the Joker seem less gay, they would have showed the Joker being more responsive to her sexual advances.


1. I already know what an a/hole Joker is, do I need to see him beat up women to make me hate him even more? What's next? Animal abuse? Drug dealing?

2. I agree, but why would Joker put out with Harley when she is so far below his league just please her? he's so selfish. However, i wouldn't put it past Harley that that's why she to Ivy:D Eh? Eh?

3. Preach it!

4. Amen.

[niall mc cann]

Which... well. Having a pair of bachelors devoted to taking care of their maiden aunt? It only further 'gays up' the subtext for me.

:D

yeah, but that stuff happened all the time back in the day.

I recall Jim Steranko being interviewed about a sex scene he wrote into Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD; he claimed that the last panel showed Nick and Val (i assume it was Val, i'm not honestly sure, but who she was is immaterial) deshabille and embracing. The powers that be felt it was a bit racy, so they replaced it with a close up of Nick's pistol tucked nice and tight into its holster, hanging carelessly off the back of a chair...:rolleyes:

I don't know whether they realised what it suggested and didn't care once they had the plausible deniability, or whether people just were that niaive back then.:o

[OverMaster]

If I understand correctly, some of you argue that since Harley is abused by the Joker, "approving" of that relationship means approving abuse in marriages.

Already in BTAS Harley is shown trying to get away from Joker and become an independent person. However, the endings of Harlequinade and Mad Love might seem "romantic" with them being reconciled.

However, I would say that what we feel is not a romantic "Ahh, ain't it cute those two being together again". I don't think one has to be ashamed to like Harley and her obsession with the Joker. Obviously that is an unhealthy obsession. But it's a psychological highly interesting flaw, and makes a great story.
When the Joker shows affection for Harley that doesn't mean he can feel love or even compassion. It means that Harley has managed to enter his world and play his own game so well that he considers her not his equal, but worthy to play along for the moment. That recognition, although she mistakes it for love, is what Harley craves. The ending of Harlequinade is not really romantic. It is a defeat for Harley in the sense that she didn't succeed to kill Mr.J. And it is a defeat because she returns to their unhealthy, undignified relationship. But it is also a triumph for her because she managed to impress him, a triumph in the sense of a lion tamer that managed to put his head inside the lions mouth and survived.

I don't make a big deal out of Joker's abuse towards Harley and her inability to get away from him because that's just another twist on the classic pattern of selfdestruction and reincidence almost all Batvillains have (Ventriloquist with Scarface, Harvey Dent with his evil side, Talia with her father, Riddler with his obsession, etc, etc).

[The Mirrorball Man]

"Dispel Gay Joker" would make a great name for a D&D spell.

[Lorendiac]

1. I already know what an a/hole Joker is, do I need to see him beat up women to make me hate him even more? What's next? Animal abuse? Drug dealing?

I suspect he's done both of those things at one time or another.

[dancj]

1. I already know what an a/hole Joker is, do I need to see him beat up women to make me hate him even more? What's next? Animal abuse? Drug dealing?
Absolutely right. We already know he's evil so we don't need to have him commit any more crimes to reinforce that. I think the best thing is for Joker to give up stealing and killing and take up flower arranging. We'll still know he's evil.

[The Zapper]

Absolutely right. We already know he's evil so we don't need to have him commit any more crimes to reinforce that. I think the best thing is for Joker to give up stealing and killing and take up flower arranging. We'll still know he's evil.

Good job. I think you summed up the whole argument right there.

[Mastahh!]

joker is a criminal
and a lunatic
and the coolest villain of all
and female abuse is like peeling a potato for him
so actually i think its not even a crime and by that i mean 'Cmon"! he can kill about half new york and wont care :P he is like immune for crimes like abusing :P

joker is joker

nuff said!

[swedishmeatballs]

Absolutely right. We already know he's evil so we don't need to have him commit any more crimes to reinforce that. I think the best thing is for Joker to give up stealing and killing and take up flower arranging. We'll still know he's evil.

I suppose you won't start complaining to DC when they wanna start making him 'edgy' and more evil by making him a child molester? How far do you wanna go?

[dancj]

I suppose you won't start complaining to DC when they wanna start making him 'edgy' and more evil by making him a child molester? How far do you wanna go?
I wouldn't want them to do that because Joker's asexual. It would be out of character for him. A bit of violence on the other hand is completely up his street.

The guy is violent against everyone - it would be really strange if he started making an exception for women.

[pariah-1972]

I have noticed that Joker has such a strange obsession with bats that it might look gay or homosexual especially since he is quite dandy himself.
I've also seen pictures and stories where it looks like Harley and Ivey might have some sort of secret relationship going on.
neither one of these will ever be followed thru but it would be interesting perhaps to see how far it could go.
has Joker actually Physically abused Harley? i can't recall any such times but i do know he treats her rather poorly and she seems to either like it or put up with it.
the whole gay/jealousy thing could also be the reason why he killed Jason Todd and maimed Babs.
not sure why Dick would be off limits on that?
interesting post i sure would have never had the guts to make this up :)

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

has Joker actually Physically abused Harley? i can't recall any such times but i do know he treats her rather poorly and she seems to either like it or put up with it.


Are you kidding?

He threw her out of a window in "mad love" (it was a comic before the episode aired in tv) And in the cartoon he was more physically abusive than the comics. He was both verbally and physically abusive.

She did NOT enjoy it, she was just SO in love with him that she over looked it (demonstrating that she IS in an abusive relationship)

The fact that you're saying she likes it and that you can't recall it happening, just goes to show you really don't know Harley Quinn.

I'm sorry but saying Harley isn't abused by the Joker is like saying Batman doesn't wear a mask.

[pariah-1972]

Are you kidding?

He threw her out of a window in "mad love" (it was a comic before the episode aired in tv) And in the cartoon he was more physically abusive than the comics. He was both verbally and physically abusive.

She did NOT enjoy it, she was just SO in love with him that she over looked it (demonstrating that she IS in an abusive relationship)

The fact that you're saying she likes it and that you can't recall it happening, just goes to show you really don't know Harley Quinn.

I'm sorry but saying Harley isn't abused by the Joker is like saying Batman doesn't wear a mask.I never sad she wasn't abused.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

has Joker actually Physically abused Harley? i can't recall any such times but i do know he treats her rather poorly and she seems to either like it or put up with it.

That's what you're basically saying is that you can't remember her being abused

[Alan2099]

Joker obviously cares for Harley. He only hurts her really bad. Most of his other henchmen he kills eventually.

[pariah-1972]

That's what you're basically saying is that you can't remember her being abusedYes that is basically what i am trying to say (sheesh)

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

Was this to say harley was created for BTAS Joker to not appear gay or the Joker in general?

Because Harley was/is pretty much Arleen Sorkin (who's was her original voice) and originally created only for the show, but then crossed over into DC....Joker's just been around a lot longer than Harley (more than 30 years yes?)

[pariah-1972]

Was this to say harley was created for BTAS Joker to not appear gay or the Joker in general?

Because Harley was/is pretty much Arleen Sorkin (who's was her original voice) and originally created only for the show, but then crossed over into DC....Joker's just been around a lot longer than Harley (more than 30 years yes?)Thats a really weird question.

[ddqfpluskick]

Maybe to she' there to give a contrast to Batman and the Joker. Batman had multiple love interest the Joker had one solid relation.

[Captain Jim]

Thats a really weird question.

I don't see why. She's asking if this was presumably done to emphasise he wasn't gay to the cartoon audience or to the comic book audience. I don't have a definitive answer, but I don't see anything strange about the question.

[pariah-1972]

I don't see why. She's asking if this was presumably done to emphasise he wasn't gay to the cartoon audience or to the comic book audience. I don't have a definitive answer, but I don't see anything strange about the question.I just didn't understand her question Jim thats all.

[pariah-1972]

It seems like a lot of times the expanded media wants Joker to be seen as straight, but i don't think most comic book fans would care too much or be all that shocked.
i can only think of one time that i know of the joker had shown interest in a female and that was in a pre-crises limited series where he kidnapped Black Canary (really her alter ego)for romantic interests.

so basically she was most likely created for the cartoon audience since a gay joker in a cartoon would have been way too controversial.
if that was even there intention.

[Jinxer]

Joker obviously cares for Harley. He only hurts her really bad. Most of his other henchmen he kills eventually.

That's not entirely true. Joker was planning to kill Harley, which is why she turned on him.

[The Zapper]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

[Jinxer]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

I can't believe it's not butter... spray.

[Black Atom]

I can't see why anyone would assume he's gay to begin with. Because he wears purple?

[matthewaos]

I can't see why anyone would assume he's gay to begin with. Because he wears purple?

Good point. I found Harley's add a little forced, but that's my opinion.

[OverMaster]

I can't see why anyone would assume he's gay to begin with. Because he wears purple?

Well, he has made 'darling' puns and teasings at Batman many times before, so...

But yeah. Why doesn't people assume Two-Face is bi, instead?

I mean... can he resist and NOT having double standards about something at all? :D

[pariah-1972]

It's mostly the campyness aspect that makes me think he might be gay.

and also gay=happy.
lots of villians where purple its practically a cliche.

[ddqfpluskick]

It's really about stereotypes

Harley is really a comic foil design to make the Joker humorous. She the one who always laughs no matter how psychotic his plans are.

As for being gay...well like Batman is can be said

In animated series the Joker

Physically unimpressive - he often gave up in a straight fight
High pitch voice
flamboyant clothing

[pariah-1972]

I think i'm still shocked at how butch tim burton made him in his movies.

[matthewaos]

Well, Nicholson is not exactly thin...

[pariah-1972]

Well, Nicholson is not exactly thin...that has nothing to do with it really.
he was a gangster before becoming joker and he was having an affair with his bosses wife.
and he would also drop his voice deep down to be creepy and intimidating.
not to mention that big gun he pulled out to the end was def some sort of phallic symbol in my opinion.

[matthewaos]

I don't know why I wrote "thin", but anyway. I think I was thinking something else...

I think that Nicholson really liked the part though, it was natural for him. Either way, there was nothing about the movie joker to show that he is gay or anything.

[Southpaw Crane]

not to mention that big gun he pulled out to the end was def some sort of phallic symbol in my opinion.

Definately true. The gun did come out of his trousers.

I think that Nicholson really liked the part though, it was natural for him. Either way, there was nothing about the movie joker to show that he is gay or anything.

Nicholson is just having a whale of a time throughout that whole movie. But then again, who wouldn't? I'm not even the right gender to play the Joker, but I wouldn't pass it up as a part. :D

[pariah-1972]

Definately true. The gun did come out of his trousers.



Nicholson is just having a whale of a time throughout that whole movie. But then again, who wouldn't? I'm not even the right gender to play the Joker, but I wouldn't pass it up as a part. :DYeah it took me a while to get that part (me not so smart)anyways god love tim burton who else would have thought of that idea?

[Southpaw Crane]

Yeah it took me a while to get that part (me not so smart)anyways god love tim burton who else would have thought of that idea?

So true, though personally my favourite bit was the hand buzzer. Either that or the art gallery sequence. There's a Turner display in the Tate that I wouldn't mind doing that to... I'm not a big fan of landscapes. Hell, I just want to be able to walk around in public with a boombox and a baton like it's a normal everyday thing! *thinks* Hey... baton twirling... that's in Tim Burton's Joker film and that's seriously gay!

[Alan2099]

But is he doing those things because he's gay or because he's flamboyant?

[rZi]

Didn't he sexualy abuse robin at some point? My friend was telling me about it..the issue where he was blown up maybe?

[OverMaster]

Didn't he sexualy abuse robin at some point? My friend was telling me about it..the issue where he was blown up maybe?

No, he just pummeled Robin with a crowbar, and then finished the job with a bomb.

[brunofrankelli]

Joker can't be gay. He's one sexy son-of-a-dog-of-the-female-persuasion is what he is. I'd do him but I don't swing like that. If there ever was a Bat-villain that could be gay, it'd have to be the Riddler. Effeminate. Likes to ask loaded questions, just like a woman? Am I wrong here? Huh? Huh? Who's with me now? Guys?

[OverMaster]

Joker can't be gay. He's one sexy son-of-a-dog-of-the-female-persuasion is what he is. I'd do him but I don't swing like that. If there ever was a Bat-villain that could be gay, it'd have to be the Riddler. Effeminate. Likes to ask loaded questions, just like a woman? Am I wrong here? Huh? Huh? Who's with me now? Guys?

Well, in canon, Maxie Zeus DID show an occasional interest on men, even trying to seduce his own henchmen. Then again, he imitated Zeus, so no big surprise there.

[Lorendiac]

Well, in canon, Maxie Zeus DID show an occasional interest on men, even trying to seduce his own henchmen. Then again, he imitated Zeus, so no big surprise there.

I don't think I'd heard about that one. On the other hand, I admit it's been a heck of a long time since I last read or reread a story starring Maxie Zeus (and most of the ones I've read date back to the 1980s or earlier).

Do you happen to remember when he tried to seduce one of his male subordinates?

[Lorendiac]

Didn't he sexualy abuse robin at some point? My friend was telling me about it..the issue where he was blown up maybe?

No, he just pummeled Robin with a crowbar, and then finished the job with a bomb.

True! Absolutely true! But to be fair about this, I suppose we should note that some people find inflicting serious injury on a victim's physique to be a sexually thrilling experience. (Don't ask me why.) It's at least possible that the Joker falls into that category, in addition to all his other vices . . .

[pariah-1972]

True! Absolutely true! But to be fair about this, I suppose we should note that some people find inflicting serious injury on a victim's physique to be a sexually thrilling experience. (Don't ask me why.) It's at least possible that the Joker falls into that category, in addition to all his other vices . . .For some reason that wouldn't surprise me.:evilsmile

[OverMaster]

I don't think I'd heard about that one. On the other hand, I admit it's been a heck of a long time since I last read or reread a story starring Maxie Zeus (and most of the ones I've read date back to the 1980s or earlier).

Do you happen to remember when he tried to seduce one of his male subordinates?

Yeah, it was in the Catwoman arc (written by John Ostrander, I think) where Catwoman is recruited by Batman to help saving Gotham from the No Man's Land state.

[dancj]

True! Absolutely true! But to be fair about this, I suppose we should note that some people find inflicting serious injury on a victim's physique to be a sexually thrilling experience. (Don't ask me why.) It's at least possible that the Joker falls into that category, in addition to all his other vices . . .
I doubt it in the Joker's case. I think the guy is completely asexual. Mr Zsasz on the other hand....

[Southpaw Crane]

I doubt it in the Joker's case. I think the guy is completely asexual. Mr Zsasz on the other hand....

I still think the Joker is gay for Batman*prepares to be lynched* .

Zsasz however... yeah. He's a sicko.

[pariah-1972]

I still think the Joker is gay for Batman*prepares to be lynched* .

Zsasz however... yeah. He's a sicko. i agree's with southpaw in some sense but i don't know if Joker would actually "Seal the Deal" with Bats even if he could he is wayy to much in the closet( which probably explains his crazyness):evilsmile

[Southpaw Crane]

i agree's with southpaw in some sense but i don't know if Joker would actually "Seal the Deal" with Bats even if he could he is wayy to much in the closet( which probably explains his crazyness):evilsmile

Thanks for agreeing! I said that on another thread and someone threatened to axe me! Yeah, he is so in the closet, but I would definately buy something which had him coming out in it! (God, that would be funny.) Seriously, however, I think it would ruin the enigma if we found out which team the Joker was batting for, so it's best to leave it be! There are some things in this world that man was just never meant to discover...;)

[pariah-1972]

Thanks for agreeing! I said that on another thread and someone threatened to axe me! Yeah, he is so in the closet, but I would definately buy something which had him coming out in it! (God, that would be funny.) Seriously, however, I think it would ruin the enigma if we found out which team the Joker was batting for, so it's best to leave it be! There are some things in this world that man was just never meant to discover...;)I think its ok to speculate on Jokers sexuality here since over on the X-forums both Iceman and Storm are TOTALLY GAY:eek:

[dancj]

I think its ok to speculate on Jokers sexuality here since over on the X-forums both Iceman and Storm are TOTALLY GAY:eek:
Sure it's okay to speculate on it, but in the Joker's case it does show a blatant misunderstanding of the character

[pariah-1972]

Sure it's okay to speculate on it, but in the Joker's case it does show a blatant misunderstanding of the characterAnd where do you get that accusation from exactly?

[dancj]

From the fact that The Joker is so obviously a completely asexual person. he's like a child in ways like that.

[pariah-1972]

From the fact that The Joker is so obviously a completely asexual person. he's like a child in ways like that.But thats you're interpretation of him, personally i think its very rude and ignorant to say what you said.
the reason you percieve him as asexual is cause he is so obsessed with the Batman.

[Captain Jim]

But thats you're interpretation of him, personally i think its very rude and ignorant to say what you said.
the reason you percieve him as asexual is cause he is so obsessed with the Batman.

I don't think his statement is rude at all, but your own words are a bit borderline at best.

[pariah-1972]

I don't think his statement is rude at all, but your own words are a bit borderline at best.Because im sick and tired of people telling me my opinion is wrong? well i'm sorry Jim but i have decided not to put up with people telling me my opinion is wrong and if you don't like that then i'm sorry.

[Alan2099]

Because im sick and tired of people telling me my opinion is wrong? well i'm sorry Jim but i have decided not to put up with people telling me my opinion is wrong and if you don't like that then i'm sorry.
Because you're sick and tired of people telling you your opinions are wrong, you've decided to go out and start telling other people their opinions are wrong.

I love the logic there.

[pariah-1972]

Because you're sick and tired of people telling you your opinions are wrong, you've decided to go out and start telling other people their opinions are wrong.

I love the logic there.I never said he was wrong.

[Alan2099]

I never said he was wrong.
So, he wasn't wrong to say what he said, he was just rude and arrogant to say it.

Big difference there.

[pariah-1972]

So, he wasn't wrong to say what he said, he was just rude and arrogant to say it.

Big difference there.It is rude and arrogant to say my opinion of Joker is wrong and his is the right one.. yes what exactly is you're point?
i

[Alan2099]

You've pretty much proved my point for me. Any further conversation on the matter with you would be pointless.

[pariah-1972]

You've pretty much proved my point for me. Any further conversation on the matter with you would be pointless.I completely agree i feel the same exact thing about you;)

[Code-Name V]

The Joker's gay? I'm sorry - I must have missed all those issues with him kissing and making love to other men.

The Joker is obsessed with Batman, but it's purely asexual. Furthermore, I believe he's obsessed with killing, humiliating, and crushing Batman. Not once did I ever hear him say he'd love to walk hand in hand with him on a beach.

I think the pertinent question is why do certain fans keep seeing hidden gay overtones in everything?

[dancj]

Because im sick and tired of people telling me my opinion is wrong?
Then stop being wrong :evilsmile

[Captain Jim]

Because im sick and tired of people telling me my opinion is wrong? well i'm sorry Jim but i have decided not to put up with people telling me my opinion is wrong and if you don't like that then i'm sorry.

Hey, he was just answering your question. Ok, you guys disagree. Big deal. At least he was polite about it; you're the one who started to get nasty. Now, kindly lose the attitude, please, if you want to continue posting around here.

[pariah-1972]

Hey, he was just answering your question. Ok, you guys disagree. Big deal. At least he was polite about it; you're the one who started to get nasty. Now, kindly lose the attitude, please, if you want to continue posting around here.I'm sorry Jim i guess i took it the wrong way.

[swedishmeatballs]

The Joker's gay? I'm sorry - I must have missed all those issues with him kissing and making love to other men.

The Joker is obsessed with Batman, but it's purely asexual. Furthermore, I believe he's obsessed with killing, humiliating, and crushing Batman. Not once did I ever hear him say he'd love to walk hand in hand with him on a beach.

I think the pertinent question is why do certain fans keep seeing hidden gay overtones in everything?

Oy, do you have the time?

Dark Knight returns, Arkham asylum, an issue or two in LotDK, Broken City, at least those were examples where I thought, "Hmmmm, that could be more than what he is saying...."

I'm not saying tha Joker's obsession with Batman should be reduced to a purely 'get in his Bat shorts' type, but that doesn't mean its not there. There is a big difference between acknowledging it and actually condoning it.

Oh, and thought that dancj was the one being pompous to Pariah first. It's fine if you dont agree, but that doesn't mean belittling. C'mon man, grow up.

And finally, Southpaw-Crane, *Cyber High Five*

[Code-Name V]

I just think that people are seeing or hearing things that aren't there. I'm sure if I picked apart a comic and looked hard enough for it and had a dirty enough mind, I could make a case for Superman - Jimmy Olsen, J Jonah Jameson - Spider-man, Johnny Storm - Ben Grimm, etc. It's like when they they claim that Bert and Ernie are a gay couple or that whole gay Teletubbie debate.

I think that it's certain fans trying to justify something. As to what that is, I dare not hazard a guess. But you know what they say - Only an optimist would see a glass as half full, and only a pessimist would see the glass as half empty. It all depends upon your point of view.

If an arch-criminal being obsessed about a hero equates to gayness, then Doctor Doom is in love with Reed Richards, Lex Luthor wants Superman in the worst way, and Doctor Octopus fantasizes about Spider-man. So until DC Comics publishes the issue where The Joker and Batman are entangled in a romantic embrace kissing, I'm not buying it.

[pariah-1972]

I just think that people are seeing or hearing things that aren't there. I'm sure if I picked apart a comic and looked hard enough for it and had a dirty enough mind, I could make a case for Superman - Jimmy Olsen, J Jonah Jameson - Spider-man, Johnny Storm - Ben Grimm, etc. It's like when they they claim that Bert and Ernie are a gay couple or that whole gay Teletubbie debate.

I think that it's certain fans trying to justify something. As to what that is, I dare not hazard a guess. But you know what they say - Only an optimist would see a glass as half full, and only a pessimist would see the glass as half empty. It all depends upon your point of view.

If an arch-criminal being obsessed about a hero equates to gayness, then Doctor Doom is in love with Reed Richards, Lex Luthor wants Superman in the worst way, and Doctor Octopus fantasizes about Spider-man. So until DC Comics publishes the issue where The Joker and Batman are entangled in a romantic embrace kissing, I'm not buying it.A lot of it has to do with the campyness of the character.
and maybe another part of it is how he dresses..

[swedishmeatballs]

I just think that people are seeing or hearing things that aren't there. I'm sure if I picked apart a comic and looked hard enough for it and had a dirty enough mind, I could make a case for Superman - Jimmy Olsen, J Jonah Jameson - Spider-man, Johnny Storm - Ben Grimm, etc. It's like when they they claim that Bert and Ernie are a gay couple or that whole gay Teletubbie debate.

I don't have to look hard enough because it's right there! He said that he loves Bats so many times. How much proof do you need? Does he have to say 'I love you Batsy, how's your little boy blue? Blow your horn recently?'? Gimmie a break:rolleyes:

I think that it's certain fans trying to justify something. As to what that is, I dare not hazard a guess. But you know what they say - Only an optimist would see a glass as half full, and only a pessimist would see the glass as half empty. It all depends upon your point of view.

Exactly. Comics are an art and for art to be limited to one interpretation, it would be limiting.

If an arch-criminal being obsessed about a hero equates to gayness, then Doctor Doom is in love with Reed Richards, Lex Luthor wants Superman in the worst way, and Doctor Octopus fantasizes about Spider-man. So until DC Comics publishes the issue where The Joker and Batman are entangled in a romantic embrace kissing, I'm not buying it.

Fine, but lemme ask you something, if DC decided to be bold and go a la Batwoman with these two, what would you do? It's not like there's plans anytime soon. :rolleyes:

[Code-Name V]

When a man says he loves the Boston Red Sox, does that mean he wants to sleep with the entire team? All the Nascar fans who are die-hard Dale Earnhardt Jr. fans, does that mean they are secretly harboring homo-erotic crushes? When Peyton Manning shook Tom Brady's hand after losing to him, does that mean he fancies him?

The point is, there are different kinds of love. Platonic, sexual, paternal, maternal, etc. Seeing how I never saw the pages you have studied, I can only guess as to the context in which they were said. I'm presuming it was said in a theatrical gesture, but I confess I may be wrong.

Also, seeing how the Joker is insane - how on Earth do you justify taking anything he says literally? This is a man who once tried to copyright fish.

Seriously, do you think that when Bob Kane created the character, he established in his mind the character was gay? I'm sure writers will try to inject whatever bit of saucy, scandalous bit of innuendo into a book as to raise its profile and get fans talking about it; just as I'm sure there are writers who have their own agenda for portraying the character in a subtle homosexual tone. But when all is said and done, when the zeitgeist of whatever times we live in fade away, and the hot writers of today are replaced by the next crop, the archetypal character of The Joker will remain the same - a giggling homicidal clown with no interests in Batman other than to kill him.

And I assure you, the temperature in Hell would be 32 degrees before DC ever allowed a homo-erotic relationship between iconic characters such as the Joker and Batman ever to develop. To do so would freak out every mom and dad who buy Batman toys and comics for their kids, and they aren't about to upset that cash cow. I have had my say, and stated my opinion. Far as I'm concerned - Joker / Batman? Not gay. I do agree with your assertion that comics are open to interpretation however, and anyone can believe whatever makes them happy and the stories more fun.

[pariah-1972]

If Joker wanted Batman dead he would have done so by know.
and the fact that he keeps trying to kill or maim all his sidekicks reads a bit like jealousy to me cause i can't see any other reason for doing it.

[dancj]

If Joker wanted Batman dead he would have done so by know.
and the fact that he keeps trying to kill or maim all his sidekicks reads a bit like jealousy to me cause i can't see any other reason for doing it.
It could well be jealousy, but that still doesn't make it sexual.

I think the main thing is that Joker loves killing and maiming everyone, but he keeps Batman around because he enjoys sparring with him so much

[Alan2099]

To Joker, killing a Robin is like blowing up Batman's car. Except worse. He knows that he's damangign Batman's property in a way that will really hurt him.

[Code-Name V]

To Joker, killing a Robin is like blowing up Batman's car. Except worse. He knows that he's damangign Batman's property in a way that will really hurt him.


I agree 100%. He wants to torture Batman by hurting or killing those who are close to him.

As for killing him? You only need to look at the story "The Joker's Five Way Revenge", Batman# 251, when he has Bats down for the count and his foot on his throat. He could kill him right there, but in his demented mind it would be a hollow victory. Exact quote:

"His life is mine...I can crush the breath out of him...effortlessly! I can, at last, Triumph! But such a hollow victory--! It was mere luck that caused my attack on him to succeed! I'd always envisioned my winning as a result of cunning...at the end of a bitter struggle between The Batman and myself--him using his detective skills and me employing the divine gift men call madness! NO! Without the game that The Batman and I have played for so many years, winning is nothing! He shall live...until I can destroy him properly!

And that piece of dialogue was written by none other than Denny O'neil.

Two more small argument before I leave this thread:

If you were in love with someone, or in lust with them. Obsessed and all that with them. What would you do if one day they sought you out, forgave you all of your past misdeeds, and reached out to you and offered you a chance to live them? You would take it right? Take it and "Live Happily Ever After"

Well, Batman did just that for The Joker in "The Killing Joke", and The Joker turned him down. Strange behavior for someone supposedly "in love" with him.

Secondly, How about all the times The Joker had Batman captured and tied up. Did he ever "take advantage" of the situation? And don't say he's above such actions. Look at what he did to Babs Gordon.

Now, I've wasted enough gray matter on this subject. To debate on the alleged homosexuality of a fictional character with someone named "Swedish Meatballs" is a feat of lunacy worthy of the Joker himself. No offense SM :cool:

[pariah-1972]

Trying to make some logic out of the Jokers actions and intents is pure insanity itself.

[swedishmeatballs]

When a man says he loves the Boston Red Sox, does that mean he wants to sleep with the entire team? All the Nascar fans who are die-hard Dale Earnhardt Jr. fans, does that mean they are secretly harboring homo-erotic crushes? When Peyton Manning shook Tom Brady's hand after losing to him, does that mean he fancies him?

Dude, that's just being paranoid. Some might, some may not. Big deal.

The point is, there are different kinds of love. Platonic, sexual, paternal, maternal, etc. Seeing how I never saw the pages you have studied, I can only guess as to the context in which they were said. I'm presuming it was said in a theatrical gesture, but I confess I may be wrong.

In Long Halloween, when Joker said, 'Do I get a kiss at midnight?' is an example of theatricality. What Joker said in Dark Knight Returns suggests otherwise. Point is, Joker is a wildcard and it would be a detriment to label him as strictly Batsexual, homosexual, or heterosexual. He could be bi, for all I care, and it does makes sense. I wouldn't put it past the J-man though. Miller/Morrison lean to that angle, and I accept it just as much as what Dini did when he added Harley, but to a lesser extent. What Joker has with Bats is on a different, darker, mature level than with Harls. ;)

Also, seeing how the Joker is insane - how on Earth do you justify taking anything he says literally? This is a man who once tried to copyright fish.

He'a a wild card. Joker works best when his origin, like his sexuality is 'mysterious', and this is coming from someone who has leanings, as you can tell:cool:

Seriously, do you think that when Bob Kane created the character, he established in his mind the character was gay? I'm sure writers will try to inject whatever bit of saucy, scandalous bit of innuendo into a book as to raise its profile and get fans talking about it; just as I'm sure there are writers who have their own agenda for portraying the character in a subtle homosexual tone. But when all is said and done, when the zeitgeist of whatever times we live in fade away, and the hot writers of today are replaced by the next crop, the archetypal character of The Joker will remain the same - a giggling homicidal clown with no interests in Batman other than to kill him.

Well said, but that doesn't mean that there are consistent traits on the character. Even a mythos has a timeline, or a recipe having certain key ingredients. Different people and take some away, you are right.

To do so would freak out every mom and dad who buy Batman toys and comics for their kids, and they aren't about to upset that cash cow. I have had my say, and stated my opinion. Far as I'm concerned - Joker / Batman? Not gay. I do agree with your assertion that comics are open to interpretation however, and anyone can believe whatever makes them happy and the stories more fun.

:)

[swedishmeatballs]

If you were in love with someone, or in lust with them. Obsessed and all that with them. What would you do if one day they sought you out, forgave you all of your past misdeeds, and reached out to you and offered you a chance to live them? You would take it right? Take it and "Live Happily Ever After"

Well, Batman did just that for The Joker in "The Killing Joke", and The Joker turned him down. Strange behavior for someone supposedly "in love" with him.

No more strange than what Selina, Talia have done to Bruce? If Talia was in love with her beloved she would cut the umbilical cord (I know, I know, bad joke). Love makes you do crazy things, bro. I thought Talia was exhibiting 'strange' behavior in Tower of babel when she stole her beloved's secret files and turned them over to her father. Father's daughter or not, for someone who is still in love with her Bat, that was pretty screwed up. Great story though.

Secondly, How about all the times The Joker had Batman captured and tied up. Did he ever "take advantage" of the situation? And don't say he's above such actions. Look at what he did to Babs Gordon.

Because he would want his Batsy to witness the entire thing!:p Also don't forget, Tim and Dick always come in just in the nick of time. Question, are you saying you are okay with Joker raping Babs/beating up HQ over him having a same sex crush on Bats?

Now, I've wasted enough gray matter on this subject. To debate on the alleged homosexuality of a fictional character with someone named "Swedish Meatballs" is a feat of lunacy worthy of the Joker himself. No offense SM :cool:

Just doing my job:cool:

[Code-Name V]

Question, are you saying you are okay with Joker raping Babs/beating up HQ over him having a same sex crush on Bats?


I think what The Joker did to Babs in "TKJ" was way over the line. While writers should be able to craft the stories they want to tell (and who am I to argue with the genius that is Alan Moore? I'm a big fan of his), I feel certain subjects should be refrained from entering a story.

Topics like rape, incest, child abuse, spouse abuse, and 9/11 shouldn't really be injected into a story as they are simply too tasteless and horrible to be made a plot point for a comic book. True, homicide, kidnapping, larceny, and terrorism is just as deplorable - but shooting a woman, undressing her and taking photos is just plain sick and really doesn't belong.

So to answer your question SM, I'd much prefer a homo-erotic Joker than a Joker who exploits makes me ill enough to think about stop reading.

[pariah-1972]

Just let me say that i think Joker is way too much in the closet to ever do anything or actually even come to terms with those emotions.

[mattx110]

My idealized version of the joker goes to sleep and wakes up a different person every time. He suffers from short term memory damage, and long term memory loss, and the last thing he solidly remembers in his times of coherence is being tossed in chemicals by Batman. That's the root of his fixation, and he's too lost in the craziness of his mind to make sense of anything, but 9 times out of 10, he wakes up a monster, and 1 time he is sane enough to be suicidal and doesn't trust anyone but the man who "created" him to put him down.

It's a bit more Jekyll and Hyde influenced than Joker is regularly, but I keep reading about how Jokers mind is an illogical torrent, then he commits crimes that make sense and schemes and is obvious capable of rational thought. He's a sociopath, when he should be a psychopath.

I'd also guess that based on his personality disorder that I've attributed to him, he could wake up wanting to have sex with eskimo pies and not understand it, so maybe everyone once in a while it's a sexual kinky black leather and purple suits thing, and Batman is a fixation for him because it's all he can hold on to. So it's a case of coinciding fascinations/disorders.

To Batman, Joker should always just be another crazy who needs to be put in Arkham. Maybe one he hates more than any other, but the "Chaos spirit vs. order" thing is a bit too un-Batman.

[pariah-1972]

but the "Chaos spirit vs. order" thing is a bit too un-Batman.i'm not sure what you mean by that exactly? do you not see how they each represent those extremes?

[Southpaw Crane]

From the fact that The Joker is so obviously a completely asexual person. he's like a child in ways like that.Sure it's okay to speculate on it, but in the Joker's case it does show a blatant misunderstanding of the character
Okay, that's your opinion. What leads you to think that my opinion is so wrong? Don't worry, I won't get offended. I agree, most of the evidence for my opinion is circumstancial, it all depends on how you read the character's expressions and words. Convert me, why do you think he's asexual?

Also, IMHO, the argument that ensued on this thread was just based on a string of misunderstandings, I don't think anybody meant any harm with what they said.
Peace!:)

[QUOTE=mattx110;5786299]My idealized version of the joker goes to sleep and wakes up a different person every time. He suffers from short term memory damage, and long term memory loss, and the last thing he solidly remembers in his times of coherence is being tossed in chemicals by Batman. That's the root of his fixation, and he's too lost in the craziness of his mind to make sense of anything, but 9 times out of 10, he wakes up a monster, and 1 time he is sane enough to be suicidal and doesn't trust anyone but the man who "created" him to put him down.

I'd also guess that based on his personality disorder that I've attributed to him, he could wake up wanting to have sex with eskimo pies and not understand it, so maybe everyone once in a while it's a sexual kinky black leather and purple suits thing, and Batman is a fixation for him because it's all he can hold on to. So it's a case of coinciding fascinations/disorders.
QUOTE]

That sounds very plausible, as does the stuff Swedish Meatballs said. On a less serious note, was the eskimo pies thing meant to be funny, because it made me laugh.

[OverMaster]

I think what The Joker did to Babs in "TKJ" was way over the line. While writers should be able to craft the stories they want to tell (and who am I to argue with the genius that is Alan Moore? I'm a big fan of his), I feel certain subjects should be refrained from entering a story.

Topics like rape, incest, child abuse, spouse abuse, and 9/11 shouldn't really be injected into a story as they are simply too tasteless and horrible to be made a plot point for a comic book.

That's quite a broad list of no-nos. While I can see your point about, say, graphic rape or incest, matters like spouse abouse can be addressed in thought provoking manners that rise above shock value, *if* they handle them right.

BTW, I'll always stick to the belief Joker didn't actually rape Barbara. Not because of any morals from him, but because it would have been too obvious and cheap for his idea of a joke.

[OverMaster]

If an arch-criminal being obsessed about a hero equates to gayness, then Doctor Doom is in love with Reed Richards, Lex Luthor wants Superman in the worst way, and Doctor Octopus fantasizes about Spider-man. So until DC Comics publishes the issue where The Joker and Batman are entangled in a romantic embrace kissing, I'm not buying it.

Hoo boy, you haven't watched the Superman/Doomsday movie yet, have you? :p

[Radioactive Zombie]

Wait, I'm confused. The comics back then were pretty conservative, so, no.

Plus, about "bad things shouldn't be in comics!" thing: movies and other entertainment... things have tackled those issues, sometimes for plot, sometimes as a moral comment.

[Code-Name V]

Hoo boy, you haven't watched the Superman/Doomsday movie yet, have you? :p

Nope. Bought it, just didn't have time to watch it yet. Uh-oh, what are you trying to say? lol...

You know, I'd be more likely to accept Lex as having a latent homosexual crush on Supes rather than the whole Joker thing.

And just to be a brat, I do believe Wonder Woman is bi-sexual, if not an out right lesbian. :p

[mattx110]

but the "Chaos spirit vs. order" thing is a bit too un-Batman.i'm not sure what you mean by that exactly? do you not see how they each represent those extremes?

I don't like when street-level type characters are brought into a larger spiritual conflict (unless it's challengers of the unknown and Darkseid just tapped into the strength of every good person in the universe). Joker is fine as a crazy insane person who is obsessed with Batman. He doesn't need to literally be the living emobodiment of chaos. Figuratively, I don't mind the eternal struggle of Good vs. Evil, but I don't want it to be literally applied.
Keep the "yellow fear parallax spirit thingy" stuff in the cosmic arena. Maybe Iron Fist can be in both worlds, but Batman is a self-made crime-fighting machine.

Bruce can fight "ghosts" every once in a while, or zombies, but he shouldn't be treated like a spirit unless they kill him and make him the Spectre.

Southpaw Crane: The eskimo thing was a joke. It can be replaced by anything in the world, animal vegetable or mineral. I just thought of eskimo pies.

[swedishmeatballs]

^I concur, which is why I am in favor of TKJ origin despite the many protests. Joker is most scary when is is human.

[Nefarius]

^I concur, which is why I am in favor of TKJ origin despite the many protests. Joker is most scary when is is human.

The way i see Joker is of an insane man,not a force of nature.That makes him more scary,because he's just a phychotic man with high intelligence and despite that he can cause enough troubles even if he's not a superhuman being.

[dancj]

Topics like rape, incest, child abuse, spouse abuse, and 9/11 shouldn't really be injected into a story as they are simply too tasteless and horrible to be made a plot point for a comic book. True, homicide, kidnapping, larceny, and terrorism is just as deplorable - but shooting a woman, undressing her and taking photos is just plain sick and really doesn't belong.
I really disagree with this. Of course some subjects should be approached with tact, but to say that there is any subject at all that should never be covered in a comic is going too far.

[dancj]

Okay, that's your opinion. What leads you to think that my opinion is so wrong? Don't worry, I won't get offended. I agree, most of the evidence for my opinion is circumstancial, it all depends on how you read the character's expressions and words. Convert me, why do you think he's asexual?
Well it's just that in 20 years of reading comics I've built up an understanding of The Joker's personality in my head, which changes from day to day anyway, but writers are generally pretty consistent about it within that. He is obsessed with Batman and loves having him there as an arch enemy, but I've never seen any suggestion that he has any interest whatsoever in love or sex. His personality always strikes me much more akin to that of a child.

[Alan2099]

My idealized version of the joker goes to sleep and wakes up a different person every time. He suffers from short term memory damage, and long term memory loss, and the last thing he solidly remembers in his times of coherence is being tossed in chemicals by Batman. That's the root of his fixation, and he's too lost in the craziness of his mind to make sense of anything, but 9 times out of 10, he wakes up a monster, and 1 time he is sane enough to be suicidal and doesn't trust anyone but the man who "created" him to put him down.

It's a bit more Jekyll and Hyde influenced than Joker is regularly, but I keep reading about how Jokers mind is an illogical torrent, then he commits crimes that make sense and schemes and is obvious capable of rational thought. He's a sociopath, when he should be a psychopath.

I'd also guess that based on his personality disorder that I've attributed to him, he could wake up wanting to have sex with eskimo pies and not understand it, so maybe everyone once in a while it's a sexual kinky black leather and purple suits thing, and Batman is a fixation for him because it's all he can hold on to. So it's a case of coinciding fascinations/disorders.

To Batman, Joker should always just be another crazy who needs to be put in Arkham. Maybe one he hates more than any other, but the "Chaos spirit vs. order" thing is a bit too un-Batman.
I can see where you're coming from with this, but even this defines Joker too much. You're explaining exactly why he is the way he is and how it effects him. Joker works best when he's just plain and simple crazy.

[Violently Apathetic]

I haven't had my coffee yet, so this may not make much sense-

I think almost everything the Joker does is actually much more calculated than he'd have people believe. When he calls Batman 'darling,' 'cupcake' or grabs the Dark Knight's ass it seems to me to me it's done primarily to unsettle Batman. Any thrill the Joker gets out of it is mostly from watching Batman squirm (and boy, does Batman ever squirm sometimes). He's a sadist, not in the crude 'I'm going to bugger you against a wall and drink your salty, salty tears' way, but more 'I like to watch you flinch when I call you darling, darling. Now I'm going to insinuate that there was something unseemly about your relationship with Robin because I know it bothers you....darling.' 'Basically the Joker, with his mercurial nature, is Gay when it suits him. It's a role he decides to play and he throws himself in with the same genuine enthusiasm in which he does everything. Homosexual men often scare insecure 'heterosexual' men, the Joker's questionable sexuality is another tool he uses to make himself unnerving because it’s funny to him.

Though there is a jealousy and passion there that could be seen as bordering obsessive erotic. There is a realm where he is unable to engage Batman in the same way that say, Catwoman can, and I think his exclusion from such a major facet of the Dark Knight’s life may bother him. Has anyone ever seen a version of Othello where the actor cast as Iago chooses to play the ensign NOT as a man motivated just by vindictive fury over being passed over for a job but as a repressed homosexual with an unrequited desire for Othello? It’s never overtly spoken, but is merely hinted at. I’ve never thought such interpretations undermine any of the characters, it simply seems to me that love and hate can be intertwined to the point that it’s difficult to separate the two. I could see the Joker played the same way pretty easily.

I think anyone who says the Joker doesn’t play up these kind of undertones on occasion is deluding themselves, the question is if there is any real menace or sincerity behind his words and actions. I wouldn’t say no. We accept almost anything from the Joker, why not this?

In short (Ha!) I think the Joker could be gay if it suited his whim and in no way would it strike me as out of character.

[Bricolo]

I thought I read somewhere Harley Quinn was an homage to Calliope Jones of the soap opera Days of Our Lives played by the voice of Harley, Arleen Sorkin. She had dressed up as a Harlequin in the series and she was the love interest of John de Lancie's Eugene Bradford, better known as Q of Star Trek TNG. Fans of the show might remember his family has the feud with the Dimeras, while the Dimera's were blessed, the Bradford's were cursed and Eugene had this medallion crest with the Bradford Crest on the one side and the Phoenix on the other, this was the power of the Dimera's and Stefano wanted it for even more power but Eugene had to protect it from him. Eugene was a flawed individual, slightly crazy and very eccentric and he eventually used the power in his time machine where upon he traveled to the future and made an android duplicate of his wife Calliope. Later Eugene lost the the seal to time, I think this could explain all of the chronal anomalies on the show right now.

Anyways, Joker is straight but would turn for Lex.

[Captain Jim]

Oh, and thought that dancj was the one being pompous to Pariah first. It's fine if you dont agree, but that doesn't mean belittling. C'mon man, grow up.

I'm not sure who you're talking to, but it's not your concern anyway. And let's not be telling anyone to grow up, okay? That's a put-down in and of itself.

[Captain Jim]

I think almost everything the Joker does is actually much more calculated than he'd have people believe. When he calls Batman 'darling,' 'cupcake' or grabs the Dark Knight's ass it seems to me to me it's done primarily to unsettle Batman.

That sounds right to me.

[Captain Jim]

Seriously, do you think that when Bob Kane created the character, he established in his mind the character was gay?

IIRC, I believe the Joker was created by Jerry Robinson.

[pariah-1972]

IIRC, I believe the Joker was created by Jerry Robinson.According to Kane and Finger,Jerry is taking credit for something he didn't do.

[Captain Jim]

You can't believe Kane. He tried to take credit for everything. Where did Finger say that?

[swedishmeatballs]

I'm not sure who you're talking to, but it's not your concern anyway. And let's not be telling anyone to grow up, okay? That's a put-down in and of itself.

Look, you obviously don't like me. Frankly, I don't care. I'm here to express an opinion and I was referring to someone else. You have your biases, I have mine.

[swedishmeatballs]

I haven't had my coffee yet, so this may not make much sense-

I think almost everything the Joker does is actually much more calculated than he'd have people believe. When he calls Batman 'darling,' 'cupcake' or grabs the Dark Knight's ass it seems to me to me it's done primarily to unsettle Batman. Any thrill the Joker gets out of it is mostly from watching Batman squirm (and boy, does Batman ever squirm sometimes). He's a sadist, not in the crude 'I'm going to bugger you against a wall and drink your salty, salty tears' way, but more 'I like to watch you flinch when I call you darling, darling. Now I'm going to insinuate that there was something unseemly about your relationship with Robin because I know it bothers you....darling.' 'Basically the Joker, with his mercurial nature, is Gay when it suits him. It's a role he decides to play and he throws himself in with the same genuine enthusiasm in which he does everything. Homosexual men often scare insecure 'heterosexual' men, the Joker's questionable sexuality is another tool he uses to make himself unnerving because it’s funny to him.

Though there is a jealousy and passion there that could be seen as bordering obsessive erotic. There is a realm where he is unable to engage Batman in the same way that say, Catwoman can, and I think his exclusion from such a major facet of the Dark Knight’s life may bother him. Has anyone ever seen a version of Othello where the actor cast as Iago chooses to play the ensign NOT as a man motivated just by vindictive fury over being passed over for a job but as a repressed homosexual with an unrequited desire for Othello? It’s never overtly spoken, but is merely hinted at. I’ve never thought such interpretations undermine any of the characters, it simply seems to me that love and hate can be intertwined to the point that it’s difficult to separate the two. I could see the Joker played the same way pretty easily.

I think anyone who says the Joker doesn’t play up these kind of undertones on occasion is deluding themselves, the question is if there is any real menace or sincerity behind his words and actions. I wouldn’t say no. We accept almost anything from the Joker, why not this?

In short (Ha!) I think the Joker could be gay if it suited his whim and in no way would it strike me as out of character.


I heard/thought about the Othello connection too. Great observation!

[pariah-1972]

Look, you obviously don't like me. Frankly, I don't care. I'm here to express an opinion and I was referring to someone else. You have your biases, I have mine.Swedish don't get into a fight with Jim it's really not worth it and you seem like an ok guy i don't want to see you get into a fight with a mod.

[pariah-1972]

You can't believe Kane. He tried to take credit for everything. Where did Finger say that?I don't know what Finger actually thinks because Kane was speaking for him in this interview.

Batman's archnemesis the Joker was introduced near that same time, in Batman #1 (Spring 1940). Credit for that character's creation is disputed. Robinson has said he created the character.[1] Kane's position is that
“ Bill Finger and I created the Joker. Bill was the writer. Jerry Robinson came to me with a playing card of the Joker. That's the way I sum it up. [The Joker] looks like Conrad Veidt — you know, the actor in The Man Who Laughs [the 1928 movie based on the novel] by Victor Hugo. ... Bill Finger had a book with a photograph of Conrad Veidt and showed it to me and said, 'Here's the Joker.' Jerry Robinson had absolutely nothing to do with it. But he'll always say he created it till he dies. He brought in a playing card, which we used for a couple of issues for him [the Joker] to use as his playing card.

[swedishmeatballs]

Swedish don't get into a fight with Jim it's really not worth it and you seem like an ok guy i don't want to see you get into a fight with a mod.

I am not getting into a fight. It's petty. I was just expressing what I think is wrong. I didn't make a personal attack TOWARDS him. I know he doesn't like the comments I made earlier in the thread, and that's fine. I didn't call anyone on the board names or anything of the sort. If Dancj didn't say anything back to me after what I said about him concerning you, then I don't think the mod should have a problem. Geez.

And thank you, pariah.

[pariah-1972]

I am not getting into a fight. It's petty. I was just expressing what I think is wrong. I didn't make a personal attack TOWARDS him. I know he doesn't like the comments I made earlier in the thread, and that's fine. I didn't call anyone on the board names or anything of the sort. If Dancj didn't say anything back to me after what I said about him concerning you, then I don't think the mod should have a problem. Geez.

And thank you, pariah.Well i don't agree with what Dancj said i might have overreacted a bit in responding to him and besides the fight or arguement is completely over so there is no need to continue any part of it in my mind really.

[mattx110]

Alan2099- I don't mind having an explanation and definition for joker that keeps him insane and unpredictable. With my explanation, he's still capable of anything, and pretty much un-"savable". The "origin" type stuff kinda makes him go from "semi-mysterious" to "ok, se we know the boring parts of his life too", cause nothing in his past is going to be as interesting as a crazy battle of wits with Batman. Like with wolverine, we knew everything about him, but Marvel could still pretend he was mysterious until "origins". But understanding the character on a theoretical level shouldn't kill that.

It's just a personal preference thing, and I think it would make a much better Joker explanation than J'onn J'onnz exclaiming "I can't psychic him cause his mind is crazy!" and would make for more consistent but still varying characterization.

[dancj]

If Dancj didn't say anything back to me after what I said about him concerning you, then I don't think the mod should have a problem.
Yeah - don't sweat it on my account. In a way I was a bit glad someone was taking the opposing viewpoint after so many people jumped on Pariah-1972

[pariah-1972]

Yeah - don't sweat it on my account. In a way I was a bit glad someone was taking the opposing viewpoint after so many peopl jumped on Pariah-1972Umm i hate to tell you this but you where the only one who "jumped" on me.

[swedishmeatballs]

Alan2099- I don't mind having an explanation and definition for joker that keeps him insane and unpredictable. With my explanation, he's still capable of anything, and pretty much un-"savable". The "origin" type stuff kinda makes him go from "semi-mysterious" to "ok, se we know the boring parts of his life too", cause nothing in his past is going to be as interesting as a crazy battle of wits with Batman. Like with wolverine, we knew everything about him, but Marvel could still pretend he was mysterious until "origins". But understanding the character on a theoretical level shouldn't kill that.

It's just a personal preference thing, and I think it would make a much better Joker explanation than J'onn J'onnz exclaiming "I can't psychic him cause his mind is crazy!" and would make for more consistent but still varying characterization.


So you are saying that you don't mind if the character has on origin, just as long as it doesn't overshadow who they are today?

If that's so, then I agree! I don't mind the rare, occassional reference because humanizing the Joker would be as bad a move as keeping him as a one dimensional, one note killing machine.

[Captain Jim]

Guys, let's put all the argument stuff behind us. All this "he said, you said" stuff is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Swedishmeatballs, I have nothing against you. I just don't put up with anything that appears to be a personal attack against another person. Disagree with someone's opinions all you want, but don't make it personal.

Now, let's all move on.

[mattx110]

So you are saying that you don't mind if the character has on origin, just as long as it doesn't overshadow who they are today?

If that's so, then I agree! I don't mind the rare, occassional reference because humanizing the Joker would be as bad a move as keeping him as a one dimensional, one note killing machine.

That's a good way of thinking of it. "Do anything if it doesn't get in the way of the character".

Based on The Killing Joke and his other appearances, it doesn't hurt us if we know the Joker's official origin, if he still has his craziness, he's still the Joker.

[DamnedReality]

Just finished reading this whole thread...
Like a lot of observations made and agree/disagree with them...
I like to just add my own opinion to the bunch on the Joker's sexuality.
I think for the most part the Joker doesn't concern himself with sex, he simply has bigger things to think about. If it is part of the plan and is needed he will use it to his advantage (example: Secrets and Joker Time)
We know his world circulates around Batman, In Emperor Joker he killed and resurrected Batman everynight. It was stated he couldn't exist without Batman to be his counterpart.
I think Joker's verbal flirtations with Batman could be similar to a group of friends who know each other well enough they could playfully call each other sexy or cupcake or whatever nickname and not mean anything by it...
If any villian could say they know batman most just due to familariarity it is definitely the Joker.
Joker also has an obsession with Robin (telling you something already know), I've read comics where he has stated it is his personal job to kill robin. Of course he knows it is what can really hurt Batman mentally, which I believe is what the Joker tries to do more than physically when it comes to the B-man.
When it comes to the "The Killing Joke" I don't think the Joker raped Barbara... maybe his henchmen...but I doubt he himself did.

Another thought is, when you are creating a villian you make him do things people will despise him for... The Joker has done them all I believe. And insanely enough it works for him...HA!

[dancj]

Umm i hate to tell you this but you where the only one who "jumped" on me.
I never jumped on you.

Actually looking back at the thread it was only Captain Jim , Alan2099 who objected to your objection.

[Alan2099]

Alan2099- I don't mind having an explanation and definition for joker that keeps him insane and unpredictable. With my explanation, he's still capable of anything, and pretty much un-"savable". The "origin" type stuff kinda makes him go from "semi-mysterious" to "ok, se we know the boring parts of his life too", cause nothing in his past is going to be as interesting as a crazy battle of wits with Batman. Like with wolverine, we knew everything about him, but Marvel could still pretend he was mysterious until "origins". But understanding the character on a theoretical level shouldn't kill that.
Why bother telling the part of the story that you know is going to be boring and not add anything to the character?

I will agree that I'm tired of people going, "oh, I can't read his mind, controll him, affect his emmotions/soul/whatever because he's too darn crazy." No matter how many times I see it, it just takes me right out of the story.

[Southpaw Crane]

The way i see Joker is of an insane man,not a force of nature.That makes him more scary,because he's just a phychotic man with high intelligence and despite that he can cause enough troubles even if he's not a superhuman being.
I find it very hard to think of him as a force of nature anyway- I just don't think it works for him. He's so much more effective when he's a psycho- particularly one that started of as just a normal guy. That just makes the whole idea of his transformation so unsettling it adds real pathos to the comics.

Well it's just that in 20 years of reading comics I've built up an understanding of The Joker's personality in my head, which changes from day to day anyway, but writers are generally pretty consistent about it within that. He is obsessed with Batman and loves having him there as an arch enemy, but I've never seen any suggestion that he has any interest whatsoever in love or sex. His personality always strikes me much more akin to that of a child.
I haven't been reading comics as long as you, but I never really see this childlike side of The Joker- a psycho pretending to be childlike, yes- but not someone who is genuinely childlike. I just don't see any shred of innocence in his character anywhere I'm afraid.

[The Man Who Smiles]

First of all how amusing :smile:

So much debate and plots why Harleen Quinzell was introduced to hide the sexual orientation of the Clown Prince of crime. And I thought it was only because of a children television show, well some people even think it was not appropriate to show a woman covered in pie.

But the sexual interest of the deadly Theaterman is actually quite funny. People think he's gay because he calls Batman, his love, sweet, darling and all the other kind of mushy names.

Before I'm going to say anything about that, which I'm free to do thanks to the glorious power of Freedom of Speech!! :biggrin:

Let us rewind and all remember to well that Joker is insane! Or isn't he! :eek:

Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, states that Joker has created a upper kind of sanity!

In that case it would automatically means that the Harlequin of Hate would be the first of a new and entirely human specie that is more supreme and higher sophisticated than the rest of us so called human beings And than the basic needs for the Ace of Knaves also automatically change. Let me say I'm not saying Joker is a Superhuman or anything! He is a man who has seen this so called light of truth and creates his own justice and truth. I do believe that The Joker is the new kind of man who can not have a Limit and thinks more about everything and anything than the rest of us.

And that lead to the inimitable proof to all questions that the Joker can not be gay.

Having Sex is a basic need, we all acknowledge that if we do not acknowledge the need to propagate, we deny that we want to live.

The Joker doesn't give a DAMN! I could repeat over and over again his needs and visions about the most Greatest and most Notorious, Injustice, Evil and Sadistic man alive! but I'm not going to do that.

He Loves Harley more than you, me or the busboy could ever imagine! His love for Harley is perfect and yet sick four only our little peanuts of a brain! We can not understand or we can but we can not tolerate to let it slip our fingers.

The interest for the Batman is as simple as can be!

Challenge! Joker loves Games! And the Batman is the greatest human mind in the DC Universe! according to my opinion!

A being like The Joker, is a flamboyant person! Who sticks his hart and soul!(what ever is left of it) to make the Dark Knights life as hard and destructive as can be!

I do not see them as sides of the same coin or yin and yang but more like an old Chinese saying goes : Keep Your friends Close but KEEP YOUR ENEMIES CLOSER

They are man of strategic and sharp dialogs according to my opinion (HOW DO I LOVE THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH! )

Batman became Batman of the death of his dear mommy and daddy.

I believe The Joker already was a criminal mastermind and nut who just lost his last human side after the accident we all heard thousands of times.

So The Joker is not gay, he is more brighter than the rest of us and already was a Son of a Bitch! But I Love it! The Joker is the greatest from all other kinds of villains because of the beautiful fact that people do not understand him!

Insanity and the so called upper sanity are two things what I believe are equal! And than of course why should a man like Joker give a damn for sex? It is just to laugh! If I wouldn't have talked about Joker!

one more thing, I said Theaterman, even if the Joker is fictional! he still plays the biggest performance! I adore that Clown! he still manipulate everyone! Even us

Let the Good times roll Ladies and Gentlemen! :biggrin:

my apologies for any mistakes in the English Literature because I'm Dutch (like that is a legitimate reason for ruining the language if I did that! But ey keep Smiling!)

[theclichemaster]

Joker does seem to enjoy watching le bos get dressed in 680.

[Crimson Knightman]

With a guy named the Joker, anything can happen and that's exactly what the Joker wants you to think. What is Batman's greatest weapon? His mind. The Joker knows this. What better way to deal with a weapon than to disarm it by tampering with it. The Joker knows the best way to bring Batman down is to get inside his mind.

[Alan2099]

Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, states that Joker has created a upper kind of sanity!
I always took that as another example of Arkham completley messing up as they went along. Sort of like how badly Two-Face ended up where he couldn't even take care of himself anymore. Rather than trying to help Joker or understand him, they just came up with an excuse for him.

The idea that he's super-sane isn't one I'd ever take at face value. He hasn't created his own kind of sanity anymore than any other mental wack job has. the guy's just nuts.

On that note, I've always hated all those times when it's showned that telepaths and magic and the embodyment of the wrath of God and whatever else can't affect him because he's just so darn crazy!

[HaroldAllnut]

I always figured the Joker would be bisexual. He just seems like gender labels don't preoccupy him that much; he's too busy being insane.

On that note, I've always hated all those times when it's showned that telepaths and magic and the embodyment of the wrath of God and whatever else can't affect him because he's just so darn crazy!

Really? I always thought that was fantastic, and it really added something to how mysterious the character is. Ah well, to each his own.

[Schornforce]

On that note, I've always hated all those times when it's showned that telepaths and magic and the embodyment of the wrath of God and whatever else can't affect him because he's just so darn crazy!

I always liked that, myself. I guess because it gives Joker an edge against the Batman who can out willpower cosmics, prep to take out darn near everyone, and frighten the Spectre with a glimpse inside his mind and such. Deus ex machina vs. deus ex machina.

[Alan2099]

The less duex ex machina in comics the better. Batman shouldn't be outwilling cosmics and poutsmarting people with IQs in the quadroupple digits either.

It's not even impressive anymore. The first couple times something like that happened, it made for a cool moment or two, but now it's less "wow, Batman's good!" and more "wow. The Spectre was really a weak idiot in this issue!"

[joe27]

I think he's gay for Batman in a way where if Batman ever reciprocated interest, that would kill the obession for the Joker.

I can't see Batman ever selling his used jockstraps on Ebay (people do that), but if he did, I can definitely see the Joker buying them.

But I think he realizes sex is never going to be a factor in his relationships with Batman, and is forced to come up with other ways to keep his attention.

[thedevilsadvocate]

First of all how amusing :smile:

So much debate and plots why Harleen Quinzell was introduced to hide the sexual orientation of the Clown Prince of crime. And I thought it was only because of a children television show, well some people even think it was not appropriate to show a woman covered in pie.

But the sexual interest of the deadly Theaterman is actually quite funny. People think he's gay because he calls Batman, his love, sweet, darling and all the other kind of mushy names.

Before I'm going to say anything about that, which I'm free to do thanks to the glorious power of Freedom of Speech!! :biggrin:

Let us rewind and all remember to well that Joker is insane! Or isn't he! :eek:

Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, states that Joker has created a upper kind of sanity!

In that case it would automatically means that the Harlequin of Hate would be the first of a new and entirely human specie that is more supreme and higher sophisticated than the rest of us so called human beings And than the basic needs for the Ace of Knaves also automatically change. Let me say I'm not saying Joker is a Superhuman or anything! He is a man who has seen this so called light of truth and creates his own justice and truth. I do believe that The Joker is the new kind of man who can not have a Limit and thinks more about everything and anything than the rest of us.

And that lead to the inimitable proof to all questions that the Joker can not be gay.

Having Sex is a basic need, we all acknowledge that if we do not acknowledge the need to propagate, we deny that we want to live.

The Joker doesn't give a DAMN! I could repeat over and over again his needs and visions about the most Greatest and most Notorious, Injustice, Evil and Sadistic man alive! but I'm not going to do that.

He Loves Harley more than you, me or the busboy could ever imagine! His love for Harley is perfect and yet sick four only our little peanuts of a brain! We can not understand or we can but we can not tolerate to let it slip our fingers.

The interest for the Batman is as simple as can be!

Challenge! Joker loves Games! And the Batman is the greatest human mind in the DC Universe! according to my opinion!

A being like The Joker, is a flamboyant person! Who sticks his hart and soul!(what ever is left of it) to make the Dark Knights life as hard and destructive as can be!

I do not see them as sides of the same coin or yin and yang but more like an old Chinese saying goes : Keep Your friends Close but KEEP YOUR ENEMIES CLOSER

They are man of strategic and sharp dialogs according to my opinion (HOW DO I LOVE THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH! )

Batman became Batman of the death of his dear mommy and daddy.

I believe The Joker already was a criminal mastermind and nut who just lost his last human side after the accident we all heard thousands of times.

So The Joker is not gay, he is more brighter than the rest of us and already was a Son of a Bitch! But I Love it! The Joker is the greatest from all other kinds of villains because of the beautiful fact that people do not understand him!

Insanity and the so called upper sanity are two things what I believe are equal! And than of course why should a man like Joker give a damn for sex? It is just to laugh! If I wouldn't have talked about Joker!

one more thing, I said Theaterman, even if the Joker is fictional! he still plays the biggest performance! I adore that Clown! he still manipulate everyone! Even us

Let the Good times roll Ladies and Gentlemen! :biggrin:

my apologies for any mistakes in the English Literature because I'm Dutch (like that is a legitimate reason for ruining the language if I did that! But ey keep Smiling!)

A few things.

Joker and Harley DO NOT have a complex relationship. At best it's as fetish/an arrangement between a psychopathic genius and a ditz. You can't compare it to the complex symbiosis between Batman and Joker who have had a longer history.Joker was around for over 50 years before she even showed up. If it was indeed 'profound', why is it that DC doesn't have them together all the time? Even Paul Dini himself has mentioned that he was tired of writing her with the Joker (and Ivy) in his blog.

Joker and Harley was something that worked in kid's animation but in comics, it didn't capture the magic because Harley and Joker had to be toned down. See Bronwyn Carlton's atrocious 'The Code' to see what happens when you let Joker actually accept Harley, it cuts off his balls and Harley loses her sympathy and her status as a 'tragic' character. I love Harley Quinn, first off, but even I can't ignore how much of a glorified groupie she is when it has been shown that she can do things OUTSIDE of the Joker's influence and THAT is what makes her a compelling character (The Harley/Riddler issue in Tec, A Kind of Like Family, Harley and Ivy series).

While seeing the J and Harls interact in the beginning was intruiging, I seriously can't be the only one that notices that it has gotten stagnant at best, at worse...well, both characters lose. I don't mind seeing abusive relationships presented in a kid's medium or in comics but that is a whole different thing when that is used as a character's crutch. Joker uses Harley as a puppy he kicks just to show how 'bad ass' he is. I find it difficult to believe how anyone would justify that and say that 'she wants that treatment' after so long and as somene who has had experience with DV, it's hard to take those claims seriously. It was interesting in the beginning but it's one of those pairings that needs to be shot and put out of its misery because it does not do a service to either of the characters. Joker giving into Harley means that he is weak when it has been shown that he is always in control and a Harley who finally gets what she wants loses her status as a tragic figure. It's unrealistic (yes, i know I am talking about fictional characters). Judging by the interviews and previews from Azzarello and Bermejo's comic, it looks as though Joker has her trained like a dog. It doesn't surprise me frankly in the least.

If you were being sarcastic, I apologize but the notion of comparing Joker and Harley's 'relationship' to the rivalry of Batman and Joker is just ludicrous.

Also, about Joker's sexuality, I don't think it is a part of his modus operandi unless it's for a greater purpose like someone mentioned Secrets and JokerTime. Joker's 'private' sessions with Harley were done to bring Harley down and not because he was intrigued by her charm or intelligence (she 'slept her way' through medical school: Batman: Harley Quinn). He DOES not care for her. If she died, he wouldn't give to figs about her now if it was Batman, as we have seen with Dark Knight Returns and Going Sane, that demonstrates that in the hierarchy, Batman is far more important than Harley ten fold.

If Joker does indeed harbor some desires for the flying rodent, it doesn't mean that he is going to act on them. First off, for obvious reasons, DC will not allow that for $$$ purposes. Also, it is something that is best kept hidden, hinted at. I may have my preferences and theories but even I think that Joker's sexuality, like his origin, should be kept ambiguous. I went to a panel at the con and it was unanimous that Joker was not strictly heterosexual. Even Dini himself mentioned that Joker wouldn't limit himself to anything. I think it's amazing how these writers are aware of this and still say it without pigeonholing words and telling fans what they want to hear (and yes I am talking about Joker/Harley fans in particular).

[Crimson Knightman]

A few things.

Joker and Harley DO NOT have a complex relationship. At best it's as fetish/an arrangement between a psychopathic genius and a ditz.

Exactly. The Joker is not about "love", he's about making fun out of everything you're not suppose to laugh at. Harley was just part of the monologue and nothing more. The thing with labeling the Joker's sexuality is, you can't label that brand of insanity he loves to relish in. The Joker is not just this or just that, he's a showman who will use whatever material he wants in order to deliver the punchline.

[mgs]

either way, it's amazing that she works so well in animation, but still I find her not well used in the comics.

[Alan2099]

I really don't think Joker is sexually attracted to Batman in any way. His flirtations are no more than anoher attempt and unnerving Batman.

[Kirigi]

In "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" he calls Batman "darling" and "my sweet", and some of his facial expressions and what not can easily be interpreted that way too. But there could be more than one possible reason for this.

And the Joker's only purpose for being in drag in "Arkham Asylum" is to mess with Batman's head. The author said so himself.

[Damilkster]

well...that's a new one.

yea same thing here. never heard that

[DeadXMan]

same here

I heard the rumor of Ivy and Harley

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/seduction/losenup.jpg

[Lew Moxon]

In my opinion the Joker is clearly obsessed with Batman, probably because he sees the Bat as order to his chaos, but also, because the Bat was the last thing he saw before the acid bath.

This obession might turn into a kind of sexual attraction at points, but it is mainly just an obession.

[The Man Who Smiles]

i'm not going to say so many things or what so ever. The only thing that is a pity that the innocence of Harley Quinn what made her great is actually torn apart by DC.

I know the theories about how obsessed Joker is with Batman but it doesn't changed the fact that he decided to marry and wanted to start a family even that it would never worked The Joker made a crucial choice.

and for the people who says The Joker is just insane :) of course he is but ey People were never able to accept the fact that people are different.
Insanity is just being different :) WE (the People) are calling that Insane because we don't know better

the fact that Batman is more important well Duh! XD other wise we wouldn't had loved the Clown Prince of Crime so much! :D

I think it is Justified that the Joker hits Harley :) the Joker and Harley are both heavily Insane (different from the rest, disturbed that's how i call it but you have your own mind to think about it) The only people who makes problems of it are the people who see it in a way like we find it should be (that's called normal a word and thing I don't believe in)

and I agree :) keeping it ambiguous is much more intriguing :) it is so much more fun to play with the multiple choice questions :) those are the best :)

oh well tata :D

[thedevilsadvocate]

The Man Who Smiles;7721050]i'm not going to say so many things or what so ever. The only thing that is a pity that the innocence of Harley Quinn what made her great is actually torn apart by DC.

What innocense? She's no fallen angel. Remember, she was going to use the Joker for her own selfish purposes. How did DC tear her apart, by taking her AWAY from the Joker.



and for the people who says The Joker is just insane :) of course he is but ey People were never able to accept the fact that people are different.
Insanity is just being different :) WE (the People) are calling that Insane because we don't know better

Right and you're the expert, huh?:rolleyes:


I think it is Justified that the Joker hits Harley :) the Joker and Harley are both heavily Insane (different from the rest, disturbed that's how i call it but you have your own mind to think about it) The only people who makes problems of it are the people who see it in a way like we find it should be (that's called normal a word and thing I don't believe in)

So let me get this straight. You think that it's okay for Joker to hit Harley all on the basis of 'love'. You're saying that because they are both mentally incompetent and that although he abuses her, belittles her emotionally mentally and physically that it's okay for her to put up with it? Wow, I guess Ike and Tina were the ideal couple for the 20th century. I hope you you realise that by saying this, it takes away from Harley's light and paints her as a soulless groupie and nothing more. Just a puppet for people with fetishes. Tell that garbage to real life survivors of domestic abuse and tell me that you don't catch hell. I hope you realise that there are TONS of people out there who got tired of the Joker Harley dynamic because of false fantasies and desperate rationalizations. Joker and Harley lose alot when they are both together and it looks like in the upcoming novel, Harley doesn't have much of a voice. The more someone tries to justify the 'relationship' the less I see how it is 'profound'.

[The Man Who Smiles]

What innocense? She's no fallen angel. Remember, she was going to use the Joker for her own selfish purposes. How did DC tear her apart, by taking her AWAY from the Joker.

Is it just me or was Miss Quinzell not introduced in a Kids show? The Joker was shown as the man who manipulate her not the other way arround. And the little pretty peanut was shown a dozen time as a stupid cute girl also deadly but ey she was more shown as naive and innocence than rather deadly. DC made her more violant and gave her the selfish reasons accept for the that's something I find a pity.

Right and you're the expert, huh?:rolleyes:

nope I'm just a person who just express my opinion OH How do Love Freedom of Speech :biggrin:



So let me get this straight. You think that it's okay for Joker to hit Harley all on the basis of 'love'. Tell that garbage to real life survivors of domestic abuse and tell me that you don't catch hell. I hope you realise that there are TONS of people out there who got tired of the Joker Harley dynamic because of false fantasies and desperate rationalizations. Joker and Harley lose alot when they are both together and it looks like in the upcoming novel, Harley doesn't have much of a voice. The more someone tries to justify the 'relationship' the less I see how it is 'profound'

yep :smile: because They are fictional any other who can not see the difference between fiction and realism well that's just a pity but ey who am I to judge about that. But for the record It is your opinion so if you think that than so it is right?

still I'm talking about the fictional relationship of the most intriguing couple ever made.

May the floss be with you :smile:

[Redem]

Is it just me or was Miss Quinzell not introduced in a Kids show? The Joker was shown as the man who manipulate her not the other way arround. And the little pretty peanut was shown a dozen time as a stupid cute girl also deadly but ey she was more shown as naive and innocence than rather deadly. DC made her more violant and gave her the selfish reasons accept for the that's something I find a pity.



Well if I recall correctly, Harley boss at the start of the mad love episode (where she is still not crazy) seem to suspect that she essentially want to make a "tell-all" book about the Arkham population which would be quite selfish (I don't remember the exact circustance). but it ended up with the Joker manipulating her into her and with her falling in love with him. So she might have selfish reason at the start

[The Man Who Smiles]

Well if I recall correctly, Harley boss at the start of the mad love episode (where she is still not crazy) seem to suspect that she essentially want to make a "tell-all" book about the Arkham population which would be quite selfish (I don't remember the exact circustance). but it ended up with the Joker manipulating her into her and with her falling in love with him. So she might have selfish reason at the start


I couldn't agree more Darling :cool: , however even in fiction people make plots for selfish reasons only the bottom line is that she was indeed selfish but it was nothing more than a book and besides if the book was made she probably faced up dead just like the Joker was willing to do in the Batman Gotham Adventures number 10 Mightier than the sword.:biggrin:

But in the End YES! Harley Quin has proved she also use her selfish reason so that the Joker would love her! but than again the episode Mad Love from the series gives the viewer how Harleen Quinzel was manipulated over and over again By the Joker. :biggrin:

once the comics came, her innocence disappeared and Harley Quin was made more intelligent and more psychotic that is according to me just a shame.

[Redem]

once the comics came, her innocence disappeared and Harley Quin was made more intelligent and more psychotic that is according to me just a shame.

Well I must say I'm amused usually people don't complain when a character become smarter but anyway :D

Well her becoming more psychotic with time kinda make sense I mean considering that the Joker keep doing more horrible stuff with time and her innonce never quite go even though he can kill baby by throwing them off a window, guess the last remmant of her sanity goes away in order to preserve that innocence (because realising the insanity of it all would break it) so she only become demented as a result there become a psycho

[The Man Who Smiles]

Well I must say I'm amused usually people don't complain when a character become smarter but anyway :D

Well her becoming more psychotic with time kinda make sense I mean considering that the Joker keep doing more horrible stuff with time and her innonce never quite go even though he can kill baby by throwing them off a window, guess the last remmant of her sanity goes away in order to preserve that innocence (because realising the insanity of it all would break it) so she only become demented as a result there become a psycho

But that's just the point isn't it? Harley Quinn is Crazy for the Joker. She aproves what he does but she would never been pushed to do the same kind of things that was the beauty of Harley Quinn! The obsessed peanut who is deadly but still the stupid silly girl.

The Joker is just the biggest and most sickest bastard in the entire world of comics! DUH we know that so why am I talking about that? Because Joker just do things he likes, I always and still am in the impression that Harley would never do that kind of things simply because that is not the way she was made.

The entire reason of her creation was to show Joker is capable in caring and loving only on a way that normal people (? if those exist) could never justify and that is also the reason why Harley could never go as far as Joker because she was the one who brings the sane in him.

DC decided to make her just as a psychote as Joker that I regret.

The Joker and Harley Quinn relation is based on nothing more than what Joker and Harley both have in common a sick twisted form of humour.

Batman is the game that satisfied the Joker because he loves a good challenge ! harley is his little precious.

The thing with love gayness or hetro is something out of proportion because he cares for nothing of it.

Joker only believes in the fun of the game. But! without the innocence of Harley Quinn away there also has left a little detail

[theNighteye]

I agree. There are more important things than love to the Joker. He does not care too much for love. Harley is someone that humors him and thats why he keeps her around and maybe deep down in his acid drenched heart he has a soft spot for harley but his thing is definitely the thrill of the chase.

[Mercurialblonde]

I've always seen the Joker as flamboyantly asexual. There's not a straight bone in his entire body.

[nepenthes]

But that's just the point isn't it? Harley Quinn is Crazy for the Joker. She aproves what he does but she would never been pushed to do the same kind of things that was the beauty of Harley Quinn! The obsessed peanut who is deadly but still the stupid silly girl.

The Joker is just the biggest and most sickest bastard in the entire world of comics! DUH we know that so why am I talking about that? Because Joker just do things he likes, I always and still am in the impression that Harley would never do that kind of things simply because that is not the way she was made.

The entire reason of her creation was to show Joker is capable in caring and loving only on a way that normal people (? if those exist) could never justify and that is also the reason why Harley could never go as far as Joker because she was the one who brings the sane in him.

DC decided to make her just as a psychote as Joker that I regret.

The Joker and Harley Quinn relation is based on nothing more than what Joker and Harley both have in common a sick twisted form of humour.

Batman is the game that satisfied the Joker because he loves a good challenge ! harley is his little precious.

The thing with love gayness or hetro is something out of proportion because he cares for nothing of it.

Joker only believes in the fun of the game. But! without the innocence of Harley Quinn away there also has left a little detail

you just keep repeating yourself without elaborating or giving examples. I don't think you've actually read many stories with Harlequin in em, this is something you just made up yourself and are sticking by. maybe there's something better to do with you time

[The Man Who Smiles]

you just keep repeating yourself without elaborating or giving examples. I don't think you've actually read many stories with Harlequin in em, this is something you just made up yourself and are sticking by. maybe there's something better to do with you time

that is an opinion I certainly can make undo! I do own the entire Harley Quinn comics in which she goes on her own! Have her little own gang and where she is made more violant and psychotic than i could ever imagine from the little twit.

however about the repeating maby I am but that is because I like to talk :biggrin: and making my point clear so it seems that my point wasn't clear enough.

about the Harly Quinn comics where she than kills her best friend because in the name of love! that was funny i must admit! or where she actually died! Harley quinn was dead but she came back first as a ghost and was than resurected after she jumped in several people and used them for her own use

or what about Joker mask? in which she feels bad of herself because she made Joker to put on the mask! that was just her pudin can not do anything wrong :cool: ah blinded by love? or obsession. However she did made him smile again in the end :smile:

i can continue about the glorious comics with Harley Quinn, It was a pity there was no Harley in Salvation Run however i realy enjoyed that book or of couse No man's land ah that is a classic! where Harley made the Joker blush ah everytime i only see that page in I'm feeling amused how Joker and Harley manipulate each other

oh oh! Not to forget Ivy and Harley! I really love that comic in which they go to Mexico! ONLY FOR A STUPID PLANT! :biggrin:

ah should i continue? I could if you want and better things to do with my time is an extraordinary suggestion! however this is a hobby and just writing things is always nice to do especially when people want to know my knowledge about the little Harlequin

And than a question for you :) what was it what Ivy said after Joker shot her because he believed it was Harley?

oh well :) may the floss be with you :)

[Cez12]

I don't think she was, although I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

[pitbull in a skirt]

In my opinion the Joker is clearly obsessed with Batman, probably because he sees the Bat as order to his chaos, but also, because the Bat was the last thing he saw before the acid bath.

This obession might turn into a kind of sexual attraction at points, but it is mainly just an obession.

Precisely. Callisto has that same relationship with Xena, doesn't mean its a sexual attraction. However, due to the lesbian subtext of the show, one might not think its a far fetched idea.

[pitbull in a skirt]

It's mostly the campyness aspect that makes me think he might be gay.

and also gay=happy.
lots of villians where purple its practically a cliche.

I always wondered if that's why he liked Prince.

okay okay, lame joke.

[2-4-5_Trioxin]

Thats about one the stupidest internet rumors Id heard yet about batman, it atleast goes in the top 10.

I personally never, ever even considered the idea at any point in the jokers lifespan of any medium and I still dont and cant say Id ever heard that one before.

And if infact it is true then WB is nothing but a bunch of PR nazis gone overboard over something so meangingless and stupid.

[elias_A]

But that's just the point isn't it? Harley Quinn is Crazy for the Joker. She aproves what he does but she would never been pushed to do the same kind of things that was the beauty of Harley Quinn! The obsessed peanut who is deadly but still the stupid silly girl.

The Joker is just the biggest and most sickest bastard in the entire world of comics! DUH we know that so why am I talking about that? Because Joker just do things he likes, I always and still am in the impression that Harley would never do that kind of things simply because that is not the way she was made.

The entire reason of her creation was to show Joker is capable in caring and loving only on a way that normal people (? if those exist) could never justify and that is also the reason why Harley could never go as far as Joker because she was the one who brings the sane in him.

DC decided to make her just as a psychote as Joker that I regret.

The Joker and Harley Quinn relation is based on nothing more than what Joker and Harley both have in common a sick twisted form of humour.

Batman is the game that satisfied the Joker because he loves a good challenge ! harley is his little precious.

The thing with love gayness or hetro is something out of proportion because he cares for nothing of it.

Joker only believes in the fun of the game. But! without the innocence of Harley Quinn away there also has left a little detail

I don't exactly get what you mean.
But I certainly wouldn't say that Harley ever was a "stupid silly girl".

In her historically first appearances in BTAS she was a member of the Joker's gang who willingly helped with his plots to murder people.
In Mad Love (the comic, which came first, but is also by Dini and Timm, harley's creators) her origin is given. It is pointed out that she is a trained psychatrist, but got her stipend by sleeping with her professors (that's only hinted, but obvious).
She's cunning and manipulative.
Her view of the Joker is naive, but there are psychological reasons given for that.
Mad Love makes a point that she may actually be smarter and better in planning than the Joker, since she manages to lure Batman into a trap single-handedly, while he always failed.

I don't think that in the Harley Quinn series, while written by Kesel, she was shown more psychotic than in BTAS. She has a strange motivation to help true lovers get each other, and sometimes is obsessed with that so much that once she shoots her own faithful henchman, but besides that her crimes are pretty tame and she acts almost normal. Remember that, in comparsion, she used to support the Joker in schemes of mass-murder.

Also, I don't think at all that the Joker feels real affection for Harley. If you want to say that she brings out something "sane" in him, than I think you're totally wrong.