Countdown 42 (possible spoilers)

[Nintendite]

There are some things about comics that both are incredibly stupid and yet never get old. One of those things is having things being thrown into space.


O, yeah, other stuff happened too, and the Rogues were left in a situation in which the only people that might save them are some of the people who want their heads.


Still better then some of the earlier issues, but not as good as last week's "Flash Funeral".

[PastePotPete]

Thanks for starting this thread, Nintendite.

It took until five o'clock today for someone to post about this book, which is making me think most readers have jumped ship. I never worry about a book if there's a thread filled with nothing but posters who hated it, but when a book is ignored altogether, that's generally a bad sign.

And it's too bad. Because if they'd read Countdown 42 they would be pleased to see that...

STUFF HAPPENS in this issue.

SPOILERS

Yes, stuff is actually happening now. A lot of stuff, actually.
The Search for Ray Palmer began in the nanoverse.
Piper and Trickster finally got cuffed together and then pushed out of a plane.
and I am suddenly more interested in the Holly Robinson and Mary Marvel plotlines. They got a boost this week too.

This was a big week for Countdown. More stuff happened this week than in any previous week. In fact, I'll go ahead and say that with this issue I finally had that "Here we go" feeling.

I didn't feel that until Week 6 of 52.

Countdown took three more weeks to reach that point.

Does anybody agree that it feels like the plots are actually picking up steam now?

Is it too late?

[blackphoenix]

its too late.

For crissakes, get on with it already!!!

[MWGallaher]

Yes, it seems like it might be picking up steam, but I'm still not confident that it'll deliver. For one thing, it looks like Jason and Donna are spinning off into their own miniseries. I'm not one for bitching about "having" to buy another book, but this *really* seems like it should have been a part of the weekly Countdown, instead. I'm guessing we'll get short scenes of whatever universe they're visiting this month, but if the fun stuff (the universe-hopping) is happening in the miniseries, Countdown will seem even more lightweight than it does now. Holly's story still isn't pulling me in; the Amazonian Womens Centers aren't exactly a gripping concept, at least not yet. And it brings up a glaring disconnect, in that the "Amazons Attack" stuff has apparently already finished up in Countdown, since the womens' centers are back in operation as if nothing happened. Mary's story still seems too obvious: now she's going to get Eclipso as the suggested "mentor", I'm wagering? Hers is a quest I'm just not buying into. She always seemed pretty happy in her Mary Batson Bromfield life. Really, I'm hard-pressed to imagine a DC character that I would think could adapt better to life without superpowers. And hey, she just got out of a coma--I for one would have other things to do besides running out and fighting crime after a year in the hospital.
The rogues, at least, really have juiced up their storyline. This has some promise, especially since I have less of an expectation where it's going to go.
Meanwhile, the History of the Multiverse continues to be a waste of time for me. Serves its purpose for newcomers, I guess. I'm not looking forward to the supervillain origins, though. I expect those to be even less interesting than 52's hero origin capsules.

[Shellhead]

Yes, it seems like it might be picking up steam, but I'm still not confident that it'll deliver. For one thing, it looks like Jason and Donna are spinning off into their own miniseries.

I stopped buying Countdown after the first issue, but I've been keeping an eye on these threads to see if it got better. One of the local comic shops usually has at least 3-6 months worth of recent issues in stock that haven't been bagged, boarded and marked up yet, so it would have been easy for me to catch up with Countdown if it got good. But if DC is really spinning out a couple of major Countdown storylines into their own minis, then I'm definitely not buying Countdown. Too greedy, DC.

[Jack Zodiac]

What I've been doing is, every week, I'd skim the issue in the store and see if it was worth buying. I flipped through it this week, saw some Flash stuff, saw some Trickster and Piper stuff, so Ryan Choi, the Atom, and decided to pick it up, and I almost immediately regretted it.

Mango's artwork was unbelievably bad. At first, I thought it was okay- the Flash pages and the first Trickster and Piper scene, but the very next scene (I think the Mary Marvel crap) looked horrible. Oh! And this issue definitely sealed it, there's gotta' be some editorial mandate to come as close as possible to showing off Mary's vagina in every panel she's drawn in. It's happened with every single freakin' artist so far. On top of that, while Mango's supermen look shoddy, his superladies look like complete !@#$.

And the story didn't budge an inch as much as flipping through it had led on. We're basically no further in Trickster and Piper's storyline except that they're actually, physically cuffed, finally. The Mary Marvel storyline continues to bore and irritate me. Jimmy's story is standing still. Holly's is... God, I don't even know. What the hell was Dini thinking? This issue was bad, all kinds of bad. Everything about it sucked except for Prof. Campbell's dialogue in the scenes in Ryan's home.

Everything else about that scene was horrible though. Bad art- horrible representation of Panda Potter, who's a husky Chinese-American, not a big, fat white guy. Bad flow- I read The Atom #13, and even I had trouble following the scene, so I'm sure it was a real treat for people who don't even know who the hell the new Atom is. Wasn't even an ed. box this time. And I know it's a minor thing to complain about, but the characterization of Panda and the dialogue between him and Ryan was just plain bad. He's done nothing but egg his buddy on in becoming The Atom, now he's playing worried mother. Makes me think Marty's characterization was a fluke.

Bad issue, ashamed I was suckered into buying it.

[Buried Alien]

HISTORY OF THE MULTIVERSE is still saying that the Post-COIE DCU was a combination of the Earth-One and Earth-Two universes, no mention of Earth-4, Earth-S, or Earth-X. It's definitely no typo now, but is it indeed a retcon?

If it is, then where the hell did Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), the Question, the Marvel Family, and the Freedom Fighters come from?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[drwho]

I can proudly say for once I went to my comic store and did not pick this up. :D

[Buried Alien]

Bad issue, ashamed I was suckered into buying it.

I can proudly say for once I went to my comic store and did not pick this up. :D

You guys put way too much importance on what people think about your comic-buying habits. Every week, it's "I'm glad I didn't buy this" or "I want my money back" or "I'm cancelling my suscription to this" or "This is off my pull list."

For goodness' sakes, people, liking or disliking a comic book isn't some great accomplishment...nor is it some horrible shame. It's just...liking or not liking a comic book, and that's ALL it is.

MUST we make a big deal about it week after week?

It's getting on my nerves...like a joke that was funny the first time, but has gotten annoying because it's OLD.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Newell]

You guys put way too much importance on what people think about your comic-buying habits. Every week, it's "I'm glad I didn't buy this" or "I want my money back" or "I'm cancelling my suscription to this" or "This is off my pull list."

For goodness' sakes, people, liking or disliking a comic book isn't some great accomplishment...nor is it some horrible shame. It's just...liking or not liking a comic book, and that's ALL it is.

MUST we make a big deal about it week after week?

It's getting on my nerves...like a joke that was funny the first time, but has gotten annoying because it's OLD.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
You gotta get your jollies where you can, BA. Nothing to complain about means life is meaningless. ;)

[Buried Alien]

You gotta get your jollies where you can, BA. Nothing to complain about means life is meaningless. ;)

Yeah, I hear you Paul, but as an English teacher whose job it is to encourage people to write more creatively, I am *really* dying for folks to think of some new, original, and more interesting ways to complain. :o

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[PastePotPete]

You guys put way too much importance on what people think about your comic-buying habits. Every week, it's "I'm glad I didn't buy this" or "I want my money back" or "I'm cancelling my suscription to this" or "This is off my pull list."

For goodness' sakes, people, liking or disliking a comic book isn't some great accomplishment...nor is it some horrible shame. It's just...liking or not liking a comic book, and that's ALL it is.

MUST we make a big deal about it week after week?

It's getting on my nerves...like a joke that was funny the first time, but has gotten annoying because it's OLD.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yeah, now that Dr. Who has finally stopped buying Countdown, he's going to post about not buying it every week. LOL. :D

We're going to be on Countdown 24 and he's going to be going "Didn't buy it again this week, guys!"

[Paul Newell]

Yeah, I hear you Paul, but as an English teacher whose job it is to encourage people to write more creatively, I am *really* dying for folks to think of some new, original, and more interesting ways to complain.
Personally, I'd be ashamed if the best thing I did all week was not buy a comic and proud if the worst thing I did all week was buy a comic. :)

[jv2k]

I liked it and it moved the Black Mary story further a little bit and the mutliverse explorers finally started their journy but I've been saying things are starting to pick up for weeks now. I think the problem with the book is it has too many parallell stories going on. Everytime one of the stories gets some momentum a new one is introduced taking up even more pagespace and more chapter time.

At first we had the jason todd multiverse and monitor storyline along with Jimmy's and Black Mary's with a litte Flash Fastest Man alive backup rogues story. Then Jimmy started to do something and his story got cut off by the confusing Karate Kid panels introducing him into the story. Then the rogues story gets bigger and pipper and Trickster become major characters. It finally seems to get some sort of pace and then Holly's story is added into the mix. Then the Forerunner steps into the spotlight and! Then we also have to deal with the little tie-ins to everything currently out in dc! The reason Coundown seems to be moving so slow is that there is too much going on at once.

I suppose since it is a weekly comic Countdown can afford to cram a lot in each issue without having to worry about not getting anywhere in six months but it does seem like a bit much. I think countdown would have been better if it had just stuck to Jason and his amazing multiverse hoppers, Jimmy, Mary, and the Rogues. I'm hoping that DC eventually ties a few of these stories together.

Complaints aside though it wasn't nearly as bad as everyone says(especially the art which while not the best isn't close terrible either) and I personally still managed to find enjoyment in it.

[Joe Acro]

HISTORY OF THE MULTIVERSE is still saying that the Post-COIE DCU was a combination of the Earth-One and Earth-Two universes, no mention of Earth-4, Earth-S, or Earth-X. It's definitely no typo now, but is it indeed a retcon?

If it is, then where the hell did Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), the Question, the Marvel Family, and the Freedom Fighters come from?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)Within one of those entries, the Monitors stated something like the characters from Earth-4, -S, and -X found ways to fit in to this new world. So, I guess the explanation is that their Earths weren't blended in, but the characters remained? But that really doesn't seem to suit past continuity.

[MWGallaher]

HISTORY OF THE MULTIVERSE is still saying that the Post-COIE DCU was a combination of the Earth-One and Earth-Two universes, no mention of Earth-4, Earth-S, or Earth-X. It's definitely no typo now, but is it indeed a retcon?

If it is, then where the hell did Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), the Question, the Marvel Family, and the Freedom Fighters come from?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

No. They can't retcon *that* after slavishly recounting the now-obsolete history of the various multi-earth crossovers. This was just a plain mistake, something COUNTDOWN has had way too many of.
And I forgot to criticize the Karate Kid segment in the latest issue. I can't conceive of a more pointless waste of pages than that. If you're not going to *do* anything with one of the main characters, don't bother to check in and watch him not do anything.

[Joe Rice]

HISTORY OF THE MULTIVERSE is still saying that the Post-COIE DCU was a combination of the Earth-One and Earth-Two universes, no mention of Earth-4, Earth-S, or Earth-X. It's definitely no typo now, but is it indeed a retcon?

If it is, then where the hell did Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), the Question, the Marvel Family, and the Freedom Fighters come from?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Well, the Freedom Fighters originated in Earth 2, only migrated later. And this would explain why the Marvel Family have been absolute crap post-Crisis. And, yeah, well, the Charleton characters, too.

[Jack Zodiac]

You guys put way too much importance on what people think about your comic-buying habits.

I could give a !@#$ what you think, friend. I'm simply voicing my opinion of a comic book I thought wasn't worth the $2.99 I dropped on it. Believe you me, the minute I read an issue of Countdown I think doesn't suck, I'll be all over the place here raving about it.

Yeah, I hear you Paul, but as an English teacher whose job it is to encourage people to write more creatively, I am *really* dying for folks to think of some new, original, and more interesting ways to complain. :o

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

And for the record, it isn't like I roll in here spewing hate for the issue without any good reason. When I think a comic sucks, it's for a reason, and I've expressed those reasons vividly. Bad art, bad dialogue, bad characterization, bad direction.

[Joe Rice]

I could give a !@#$ what you think, friend. I'm simply voicing my opinion of a comic book I thought wasn't worth the $2.99 I dropped on it. Believe you me, the minute I read an issue of Countdown I think doesn't suck, I'll be all over the place here raving about it.



And for the record, it isn't like I roll in here spewing hate for the issue without any good reason. When I think a comic sucks, it's for a reason, and I've expressed those reasons vividly. Bad art, bad dialogue, bad characterization, bad direction.

To be fair, to buy Countdown and expect something good is folly on your part.

[Jack Zodiac]

I flipped through it in the store and saw Ryan Choi, the new Atom, whose series I've been enjoying, and figured I'd pick it up and see what they do with him and his search for Ray. I wasn't even expecting something good, just something interesting, but I got neither.

You're still right, though, it's my fault. I don't think my comic guy minds if I treat the place like a library, so the next time I see an issue that seems interesting, I'll actually read it in the store before- then if it's worth it, I'll buy it.

[Paul Newell]

I could give a !@#$ what you think, friend. I'm simply voicing my opinion of a comic book I thought wasn't worth the $2.99 I dropped on it. Believe you me, the minute I read an issue of Countdown I think doesn't suck, I'll be all over the place here raving about it.

And for the record, it isn't like I roll in here spewing hate for the issue without any good reason. When I think a comic sucks, it's for a reason, and I've expressed those reasons vividly. Bad art, bad dialogue, bad characterization, bad direction.
I think it was the gravitas you put on the situation BA was confounded by.

[Jack Zodiac]

So it was a backhanded compliment, eh!? I'll take it! No hard feelin's, BA.

[David O Burcham]

Every character Mary's run into after becoming Dark Mary Marvel states right there on the page that this ain't right. I, for the life of me, can't fathom how some people are interpretting that Dini is trying to show that Dark Mary Marvel is a good thing. He's showing, through the characters she meets, that this is how a Marvel Family member is not supposed to be. I don't see why it's so hard for some readers to understand that.

I'm really digging the Holly and Harley story. I am especially glad Dini is handling the character he created, as every other writer (except maybe Gail Simone) has written Harley Quinn as total crap since she made her funny-book debut.

Here's hoping Deathstroke didn't lift Trickster's shoes!

[Buried Alien]

So it was a backhanded compliment, eh!? I'll take it! No hard feelin's, BA.

And here I was getting ready to open up a whole new can of Hard Feelin's.

*Chucks the can*

Anyway, seriously, I don't care what opinions people hold or share, but to me, FORM counts. "I shoulda bought/shouldnabought..." just doesn't do anything for me anymore (I don't think it ever did). So you bought the damn book. You didn't exactly like it. It's OK. It's not the end of the world. It's not like you bought a house or all the shares of a company that just went into bankruptcy or anything. :o

Just tell us what you liked/didn't like about the book and let's dispense with the "buying/not buying" talk. I'm interested in your opinions about the book's writing and art; I'm just not interested on whether or not you think it's a good buy or not. Based on what you tell me about the stories/art, I can make my own conclusions about whether or not it was a good/bad buy.

It's no biggie; just a pet peeve, you know?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Jack Zodiac]

Ya' got a point, I like to throw my subjective spin at the end of my objective observations, and it makes my message a whole lot more negative when I'm finding faults with a piece of writing. At the very least, in the Countdown threads, I'll tone it down in the future.

But let it be known that now, thanks to you, I'm going to have to be extra snarky when I bring up Bendis' Skrull fiasco in the Marvel forums to make up the difference.

[Buried Alien]

But let it be known that now, thanks to you, I'm going to have to be extra snarky when I bring up Bendis' Skrull fiasco in the Marvel forums to make up the difference.

Oh, I don't care what you do at Stan and Jack's House of Ideas. That's a whole other universe. :)

I haven't really cared about what's happened in the Marvel Universe since 1984 (except when Red Ronin shows up, that is). That's a looooooooooong time...

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Joe Rice]

Do you think there's anything to the idea that the reason the Marvels have been so awful ever since Crisis is that their Earth wasn't properly combined?

[Jack Zodiac]

That was the Earth they smashed into the square hole? Maybe.

[Buried Alien]

Do you think there's anything to the idea that the reason the Marvels have been so awful ever since Crisis is that their Earth wasn't properly combined?

Maybe, but it's probably more just Modern Age comic book writers not quite being able to get a handle on what makes the Marvels tick.

Then again, it would be pretty difficult to sell C.C. Beck type SHAZAM to a 2000s audience. It was hard enough in the 1970s when DC first tried; it'd only be that much harder today.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Joe Rice]

That was the Earth they smashed into the square hole? Maybe.

Damn fine way to put it.

[David O Burcham]

It would certainly explain how Billy and Mary went from innocent kids to mentally challenged in the JLI books.

[Joe Rice]

Maybe, but it's probably more just Modern Age comic book writers not quite being able to get a handle on what makes the Marvels tick.

I'm talking retroactive comic book reasoning.

Then again, it would be pretty difficult to sell C.C. Beck type SHAZAM to a 2000s audience. It was hard enough in the 1970s when DC first tried; it'd only be that much harder today.



Jeff Smith's book sells like hotcakes, making much more money than Winnick's "modern" version.

[Buried Alien]

Jeff Smith's book sells like hotcakes, making much more money than Winnick's "modern" version.

Smith has his appeal, but he's not doing C.C. Beck SHAZAM any more than Mark Waid or Geoff Johns did Gardner Fox FLASH.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Joe Rice]

Smith has his appeal, but he's not doing C.C. Beck SHAZAM any more than Mark Waid or Geoff Johns did Gardner Fox FLASH.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I'd say it's a damn bit closer than those other examples. It doesn't substitute charm for arch-ness or nerd-knowledge.

And let's be honest: Beck was a great artist but he had VERY little to do with the writing. In fact, he often didn't like it, saying it was too "silly." Look at the man who wrote the Marvel Family, then got poached by DC and made a family out of Superman.

[Michael P]

You guys put way too much importance on what people think about your comic-buying habits. Every week, it's "I'm glad I didn't buy this" or "I want my money back" or "I'm cancelling my suscription to this" or "This is off my pull list."

For goodness' sakes, people, liking or disliking a comic book isn't some great accomplishment...nor is it some horrible shame. It's just...liking or not liking a comic book, and that's ALL it is.

MUST we make a big deal about it week after week?

It's getting on my nerves...like a joke that was funny the first time, but has gotten annoying because it's OLD.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Well, that's just nonsense. Saying "I want my money back" or "I'm not buying this anymore" is an expression of dislike (and, in particular, severity of dislike). Has been for years. Do you bitch at people when they ask to see the manager after receiving lousy food service, too?

You're actually making it a far bigger deal than it is (people drop and pick up comic series every freaking week; you might as well complain about the weather) by whining about it. If your skin is so thin that you can't take people not liking this comic, maybe you should just stop reading these discussions.

And hey, if everyone keeps saying how much they dislike it every week, maybe DC should put a little more effort into making it an enjoyable comic?

[Buried Alien]

Well, that's just nonsense. Saying "I want my money back" or "I'm not buying this anymore" is an expression of dislike (and, in particular, severity of dislike).

The problem is that in these posts, in these threads, the tendency is to just use those expressions in lieu of any more substantial discussion. These are forums for discussion, not routine cliche' regurgitation. It would be nice if everyone could put a little effort into adding something original to say about what they liked or didn't like the comic rather than just posting "I shouldn't have bought..." for the hundredth time.


Has been for years. Do you bitch at people when they ask to see the manager after receiving lousy food service, too?


That's entirely different from what I'm talking about and isn't at all applicable here.

You're actually making it a far bigger deal than it is (people drop and pick up comic series every freaking week;

This is true, but I don't need to know about this. I also don't want to know about it. I want to know specifically what elements people liked or disliked about those comics. It tells me nothing about the actual content of the comic to say "I shouldn't have bought this comic" other than, well, the person in question didn't like something about the comic and regrets having bought it.

Which leads me to another pet peeve: unless you happen to shop at one of those stores where the owner/clerk keeps everything wrapped in plastic or will call the cops if you flip through a comic without buying it, then it's on you, the consumer, to do a quick flip through of the merchandise and be sure that you might actually want to buy it before forking over your money. With the Internet available to so many these days, even restrictive store rules won't prevent you from making a pre-purchase judgment about the possible appeal of the product if you bother to make the slight effort it takes. If you haven't done that much when you had the chance to and ended up not liking what you bought, I really don't want to hear you crying about it to me. Caveat emptor.



you might as well complain about the weather) by whining about it.


Wait. People can "whine" about their bad purchases, but I can't criticize them for it? What sort of double standard is this?


If your skin is so thin that you can't take people not liking this comic, maybe you should just stop reading these discussions.


From this statement, it doesn't seem like you've been reading anything I've typed in this thread at all. I have no problem with people's opinions: I have problems with those opinions being carelessly and unimaginatively formed.

And hey, if everyone keeps saying how much they dislike it every week, maybe DC should put a little more effort into making it an enjoyable comic?

Please reread my actual posts in this thread and begin your argument again. You're discussing things that I'm not even talking about here.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Michael P]

The problem is that in these posts, in these threads, the tendency is to just use those expressions in lieu of any more substantial discussion.

Really? Because I've seen people using it as a punctuation mark after making those points. Like Jack Zodiac, one of the people you quoted, although you left his entire post out in lieu of just the last sentence.

This is true, but I don't need to know about this. I also don't want to know about it.

Why not? Is it really that terrible? Again, you make a far bigger deal out of it than anyone else.

Which leads me to another pet peeve: unless you happen to shop at one of those stores where the owner/clerk keeps everything wrapped in plastic or will call the cops if you flip through a comic without buying it, then it's on you, the consumer, to do a quick flip through of the merchandise and be sure that you might actually want to buy it before forking over your money. With the Internet available to so many these days, even restrictive store rules won't prevent you from making a pre-purchase judgment about the possible appeal of the product if you bother to make the slight effort it takes. If you haven't done that much when you had the chance to and ended up not liking what you bought, I really don't want to hear you crying about it to me. Caveat emptor.
"You bought it, so you have no right to complain." Speaking of tired cliches...

Wait. People can "whine" about their bad purchases, but I can't criticize them for it? What sort of double standard is this? It would be a double standard if they were the same thing. Fortunately, expressing displeasure over substandard entertainment and telling people they're not posting the right way on the Internet aren't remotely near the same thing.

From this statement, it doesn't seem like you've been reading anything I've typed in this thread at all. I have no problem with people's opinions:

Except, apparently, when they're negative ones about something you liked.

Please reread my actual posts in this thread and begin your argument again. You're discussing things that I'm not even talking about here.

Oh, you're not saying them out loud, but it doesn't take Kreskin to figure out what you're really talking about.

[Paul Newell]

You're actually making it a far bigger deal than it is (people drop and pick up comic series every freaking week;
Heh. The problem gets to be when they drop and pick up the SAME series several times.....Sometimes in the same freaking week. :)

[Buried Alien]

Really? Because I've seen people using it as a punctuation mark after making those points. Like Jack Zodiac, one of the people you quoted, although you left his entire post out in lieu of just the last sentence.

Yeah. Because that's the only part that bothered me. I had no problem with anything else Jack had to say. Just this.

Why not? Is it really that terrible?

Maybe it isn't to Michael P, but it is to Buried Alien. Are you trying to tell me now that *I* can't have a negative opinion?

Again, you make a far bigger deal out of it than anyone else.

You may not care about it, but I do. You have a problem with that?

"You bought it, so you have no right to complain." Speaking of tired cliches...

Never said he didn't have a right to complain. I didn't give anybody such rights, so I can't take them away from anybody either. What I'm saying is that if people are going to complain to me about their own bad purchases when they had alternatives, they'll have to forgive me if I'm not particularly sympathetic.

It would be a double standard if they were the same thing. Fortunately, expressing displeasure over substandard entertainment and telling people they're not posting the right way on the Internet aren't remotely near the same thing.

You're right, they aren't. Now drop the "right" and "wrong" rhetoric and try to understand what I'm telling you here: one can use the same old tired expressions to discuss comics, or come up with something original or better to accomplish the same goal. People will express themselves however they want, but I'll tell you: I'd give much more credence and consideration to someone who doesn't rely on the same old expressive shortcuts. When you've read these forums long enough, things start to all sound the same after a while. It would be *really* great if everybody would put a little more thought into them. Writers and readers alike would benefit from a higher quality of discussion as a result. It takes a little more effort, but I don't think anybody here is incapable of it. Let's aim higher rather than get stuck in the same old ruts.


Except, apparently, when they're negative ones about something you liked.

In the context of this discussion, this statement is a non-sequitor.


Oh, you're not saying them out loud, but it doesn't take Kreskin to figure out what you're really talking about.

Nice to know that you read minds. What's Paul planning to have for dinner tomorrow night? Also, is Kobe *really* going to leave the Lakers? Is Al-Qaeda really going to attack the U.S. again soon? While you're at it, I'd also like to know what Bush, Hillary, and Obama are thinking right now.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Newell]

Except, apparently, when they're negative ones about something you liked.

Oh, you're not saying them out loud, but it doesn't take Kreskin to figure out what you're really talking about.
I tell you my pet peeve....Basing the discussion on "assumed motives" rather than what is actually being discussed.

Jack and Buried worked it out all on their own, based on what was actually being discussed. They don't need any help from someone "fighting injustices", thanks.

[Michael P]

I tell you my pet peeve....Basing the discussion on "assumed motives" rather than what is actually being discussed.

You mean like assuming people's lives are so meaningless, they can only "get their jollies" by complaining?

[Buried Alien]

You mean like assuming people's lives are so meaningless, they can only "get their jollies" by complaining?

Mike, are you sincerely looking for discussion, or are you looking for a fight? I'll gladly engage you in the former, but I won't have any part of the latter.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Newell]

You mean like assuming people's lives are so meaningless, they can only "get their jollies" by complaining?
Well you can assume that....Even though I said life is meaningless unless you can get some sort of emotion out of it, even negative ones.

I can't seem to find the bit where I mentioned "peoples lives" as being meaningless, though.

[Joe Rice]

Let's remember what's important here, folks. That Jeff Smith's Marvel family is awesome.

[Buried Alien]

Let's remember what's important here, folks. That Jeff Smith's Marvel family is awesome.

If only a different artist were working on it...the current art is difficult to appreciate.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Joe Rice]

If only a different artist were working on it...the current art is difficult to appreciate.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

You've lost me there, BA. Few others today could provide the wonderful humanism through cartooning, the small touches that mean everything.

[Paul Newell]

Let's remember what's important here, folks. That Jeff Smith's Marvel family is awesome.
Amen.



.

[Buried Alien]

You've lost me there, BA. Few others today could provide the wonderful humanism through cartooning, the small touches that mean everything.

My tastes in superhero comic art are a bit more mundane. Too many 1970s and 1980s comics, you know?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[NMoline]

I am proud to say I bought this issue and I am also proud to say I will by the next 41 issues.

That is for all the people who are so proud that they don't buy countdown.

[Tom]

Wait. People can "whine" about their bad purchases, but I can't criticize them for it? What sort of double standard is this?


The one based on the fact that this is a forum for discussing comics and not a forum for discussing comic readers.

[Matt Algren]

You guys put way too much importance on what people think about your comic-buying habits. Every week, it's "I'm glad I didn't buy this" or "I want my money back" or "I'm cancelling my suscription to this" or "This is off my pull list."

For goodness' sakes, people, liking or disliking a comic book isn't some great accomplishment...nor is it some horrible shame. It's just...liking or not liking a comic book, and that's ALL it is.

MUST we make a big deal about it week after week?

It's getting on my nerves...like a joke that was funny the first time, but has gotten annoying because it's OLD.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

You gotta get your jollies where you can, BA. Nothing to complain about means life is meaningless. ;)

Personally, I'd be ashamed if the best thing I did all week was not buy a comic and proud if the worst thing I did all week was buy a comic. :)
Putting smiley things at the end of your posts doesn't remove the dismissive nature of the rest of your post, Paul. If anything, it makes it more passive aggressive.

It's sad to see two moderators taking people to task for not liking the books that they like and posting such. :D (See?)
Do you think there's anything to the idea that the reason the Marvels have been so awful ever since Crisis is that their Earth wasn't properly combined?I'm hopeful. I had the thought last night that maybe that's the point of lousing up the Marvels and killing the New Gods. Maybe this is an in-story way to get rid of them on this Earth and restart them on their own.

I'd rather they just did it now instead of getting all angsty for a couple years, but there you go.

I am proud to say I bought this issue and I am also proud to say I will by the next 41 issues.

That is for all the people who are so proud that they don't buy countdown.I'm sincerely glad you're enjoying it.

[NMoline]

The one based on the fact that this is a forum for discussing comics and not a forum for discussing comic readers.

Well when comic readers take it to the realm of complaining about the purchase and not the comic itself. Also, from the history of these forums your comment makes no sense.

[Tom]

Well when comic readers take it to the realm of complaining about the purchase and not the comic itself.

Except Jack actually wrote several paragraphs explaining exactly what he didn't like about the comics.

Also, from the history of these forums your comment makes no sense.It makes perfect sense. The description of this forum on the forums page:

From "Countdown" to "Crisis" to "Countdown to Crisis. "Your place to talk about "Countdown," "Crisis on Infinite Earths," "Infinite Crisis," "52" and the Multiverse in general.

[Kid Omega]

If only a different artist were working on it...the current art is difficult to appreciate.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

This made me gasp audibly.

Smith is as talented as illustrator as there is... a perfect mix of Walt Kelly, Frank king, Wally Wood.... gosh. I dunno what to say.

You don't have to like his work, but surely you can appreciate it.

[NMoline]

Anyways.... Back to the issue

I am interested to see if Jimmy tries to take on a super hero persona or if he just uses his powers as Jimmy Olsen.

How many more issues until either Jimmy Tells Superman? or Superman witnesses Jimmy's powers? I am surprised he has not already seen/ heard Jimmy considering Superman has Super Vision and Hearing. Maybe he knows but thinks it is better to let jimmy figure it out on his own.

[Nakomah]

Reading all these posts so far (week after week) and then looking back at the first couple of months posts at 52 forum, it is amazing the similiarities found! When 52 started so many people complained and said they would not pick it up because it had no point or no "main" character development but then as it went on people began to talk about how great the series was. I am having a serious flashback moment here folks and wonder if we need to start a new string for those who want to talk about other stringers instead of the current book at hand. (for my two cents woth, Jimmy is just getting started with the powers thing and you are so right - Where is Superman in all this mess?)

[rerun]

I would like it to get moving.

I think there's a major conflict with the "real world" moving in 5-6 issue arcs which span months while this series moves weekly. When is Sinestro War happening? When are/did the Amazons Attack? It makes it worse because the regular issues of comics like GL have a Countdown week marked on them.
I know this happens anyway with Batman having 2 solo comics along with JLA work and when does he have time to get all of this done, but it really shows with this book.

There wasn't this same issue wtih 52 since it covered a missing year and was basically out of time continuity with the regular line.

However, barring anything drastic, I'm with Countdown until the end. I've cut back majorly on my Marvel purchases since Civil War ended, so I need to spend my money somewhere and I at least feel that DC has a plan. :) I'm sure a ton of people will disagree with me, because this is the Internet after all, but I see something big down the road.

[Nakomah]

Somthing big down the road and a plan are correct. As you have already stated, most people will disagree but let's face it...It is counting down to "something" right? When this series started it was said it would be the backbone of the Dc Universe for one year. A backbone means it will touch on things but not mention them all. Just letting readers get a feel for what is going on in the DCverse without having to explain every nook and cranny. If you wnt details pick up the other books but Countdown will give you a feel of the goings on and several thread stories as well. DC does have a plan, we just need to give it time to unfold.

[Shellhead]

Reading all these posts so far (week after week) and then looking back at the first couple of months posts at 52 forum, it is amazing the similiarities found! When 52 started so many people complained and said they would not pick it up because it had no point or no "main" character development but then as it went on people began to talk about how great the series was. I am having a serious flashback moment here folks and wonder if we need to start a new string for those who want to talk about other stringers instead of the current book at hand. (for my two cents woth, Jimmy is just getting started with the powers thing and you are so right - Where is Superman in all this mess?)

Your comparison is flawed in its simplicity.

52 started off a little slow because it was setting up multiple storylines with multiple characters, which was tolerable since it was a weekly comic. Because it took place during the missing year of the OYL gap, the writers had the freedom to pick up the pace whenever they thought it was appropriate.

Countdown is also a weekly comic, but is deliberately and heavily crossing over with monthly titles. This sets up a serious problem for Countdown, where little progress can be made on any given story in 3 out of 4 issues, in order to keep the weekly Countdown series from getting ahead of the monthly tie-ins in the other comics. Therefore, the pacing will always need to be slow and can't pick up. The result is that Countdown is unlikely to rise above the level of awkwardly-paced supplementary reading.

[Nakomah]

Good point about the writers having the freedom to slowly develop the plot but mostly I was referring to the forum writers complining right out of the box about the series and then as it continued (aroung month 5 or 6) saying what a great read it was.
I do not think of countdown as supplementary reading but I can see where some people would say that. As I stated in my last post, it will touch on events without a ton of ddetail but we have to remember that there is one very large event coming over the horizon that DC is building up to that Countdown is placing the bricks for foundation here.
One more quick point that is not really related to this issue but I feel like kvetchingso.... Several people have been complaining that DC is starting a series with Donna Troy and Kyle rayner etc simply to make money. Yes and No. Readers were saying they wanted a book that would tour the new DC Multiverse and DC listened and created this book using a plot point in Countdown (search for Ray Palmer) yet peolple are complaining. What the????
You want a book but yet you don't? I don't get it. Okay, kvetching you you can resume your regular debate now....

[MWGallaher]

Countdown is also a weekly comic, but is deliberately and heavily crossing over with monthly titles. This sets up a serious problem for Countdown, where little progress can be made on any given story in 3 out of 4 issues, in order to keep the weekly Countdown series from getting ahead of the monthly tie-ins in the other comics. Therefore, the pacing will always need to be slow and can't pick up. The result is that Countdown is unlikely to rise above the level of awkwardly-paced supplementary reading.

Well-put, Shellhead. These crossover points are a drag on Countdown. In most other crossover events, the uniting miniseries has "carried the ball"; JLA had a COIE-tie-in, COIE did not pause to replay a segment from the previous weeks' JLA. Countdown is not just subsidiary to the events in the main DCU titles, but it always seems to be lagging them as well. My hope is that the editorial shuffle (and the midseason break given to the creative team) is in response to a recognition that this approach isn't working as well as they had hoped. I want them to let Countdown run more freely, and to cut back on the redundancies (like the replay of Batman's fight with Karate Kid) and waste (like Batman's pointless conversation with the now-abandoned Karate Kid). There is time to rebound, but if this "touchstone" strategy is continued, I have to agree with your last sentence.

[Nakomah]

But this helps those of us who do not pick up those DC titles. I will pick up Countdown but not JLA or JSA or even Amazons attack. Countdown allows me to peek at the rst of the goings on without the cost of picking up 7 other titles.

[Matt Algren]

I've just assumed that it's the Countdown to a new Zero Hour. DC has referenced most other big crossovers (Armaggeddon, COIE). And "Countdown to Zero Hour" was the big publicity piece for something like two years before ZH was published.

Have other people not made that connection?

[Shellhead]

I've just assumed that it's the Countdown to a new Zero Hour. DC has referenced most other big crossovers (Armaggeddon, COIE). And "Countdown to Zero Hour" was the big publicity piece for something like two years before ZH was published.

Have other people not made that connection?

The thought crossed my mind a few times after seeing that the issue numbers of Countdown were going to, uh, count down. But I keep rejecting the idea that DC would revisit one of their worst crossovers. Oh well, at least this time, they're not going to kill the JSA, right? Right? Ah, c'mon...

[Matt Algren]

The thought crossed my mind a few times after seeing that the issue numbers of Countdown were going to, uh, count down. But I keep rejecting the idea that DC would revisit one of their worst crossovers. Oh well, at least this time, they're not going to kill the JSA, right? Right? Ah, c'mon...
They've already made Armageddon, or at least one of its characters, a big part of it.

[NMoline]

But this helps those of us who do not pick up those DC titles. I will pick up Countdown but not JLA or JSA or even Amazons attack. Countdown allows me to peek at the rst of the goings on without the cost of picking up 7 other titles.


This is why I love countdown so much. I don't have to purchase Amazon Attacks or Catwoman to understand what is happening in those books. I enjoy the unusual take on a cross over by having Countdown not be the book that carries the ball. As DC has said from the beginning Countdown is the Spine that runs down the middle of the DCU.

[Paul Dee]

I've just assumed that it's the Countdown to a new Zero Hour. DC has referenced most other big crossovers (Armaggeddon, COIE). And "Countdown to Zero Hour" was the big publicity piece for something like two years before ZH was published.

Have other people not made that connection?


Countdown can't be leading to another time-changing ret-con 'Crisis' event though, surely? Not after Infinite Crisis has just created New Earth and the 52 Multi-verse. It'd be ridiculous.

I think it'll just be some enormous war/Identity Crisis event

[blackphoenix]

I just wanted to add how friggin' stupid it was in the History Of the Multiverse section that Superboy-Prime was refered to only as "the l ast survivor of Earth Prime" and just "Prime"(does Marvel know about this?). When are they gonna settle that damnable lawsuit?

[Buried Alien]

I just wanted to add how friggin' stupid it was in the History Of the Multiverse section that Superboy-Prime was refered to only as "the l ast survivor of Earth Prime" and just "Prime"(does Marvel know about this?). When are they gonna settle that damnable lawsuit?

It is annoying, isn't it? It's also proof that the lawsuit and its consequences for DC are for real. If I were DC, I'd be rigorously exploring all legal avenues for regaining the right to use the term "Superboy" in the company's publications. What's happening right now with the Superboy name is not just annoying, but embarrassing.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[blackphoenix]

Countdown can't be leading to another time-changing ret-con 'Crisis' event though, surely? Not after Infinite Crisis has just created New Earth and the 52 Multi-verse. It'd be ridiculous.

I think it'll just be some enormous war/Identity Crisis event

Sorry, but I think we are headed for Crisis 3. Que the limp continuity reboot!

[blackphoenix]

It is annoying, isn't it? It's also proof that the lawsuit and its consequences for DC are for real. If I were DC, I'd be rigorously exploring all legal avenues for regaining the right to use the term "Superboy" in the company's publications. What's happening right now with the Superboy name is not just annoying, but embarrassing.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Don't forget "stupid." Just what the hell are the Siegel/Shusters gonna do if they win? They get the name but Smallville, Clark Kent, et al remain with DC. wHAT ARE they gonna do, sell Superboy comics out of the back of a truck? Remember when that one guy reclaimed Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt from DC? What is he doing with the character? Nothing. Those guys need to just get a HUGE paycheck from DC and go away.

[MWGallaher]

It is annoying, isn't it? It's also proof that the lawsuit and its consequences for DC are for real. If I were DC, I'd be rigorously exploring all legal avenues for regaining the right to use the term "Superboy" in the company's publications. What's happening right now with the Superboy name is not just annoying, but embarrassing.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Annoying, maybe, but DC seems to be resigned to the fact that they can't use "Superboy" any more. They've explored the avenues, I think, and come to the same conclusion that I have: the law says Superboy is the Siegels'. There's nothing embarassing about abiding with the law; if it's worth it to them, they'll license it from Siegel's heirs.

[diablo7]

just call him really terrific boy and be done with it.. :)

[Buried Alien]

just call him really terrific boy and be done with it.. :)

Retcon Punch Lad would be even better.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[jadrax]

The one based on the fact that this is a forum for discussing comics and not a forum for discussing comic readers.

So people discussing themselves and endlessly telling us about their buying habits every time they decide to drop a book only to buy it next week is off topic in this forum!

Good to know. ;o)

[Captain Jim]

Ahem, if it's okay to have an on-topic post...

I agree that Countdown is picking up steam and also that this issue was good, but not as good as last week's. On the other hand, I think it would have been hard to match the intensity of Bart's funeral. I also agree that the art was somewhat lacking, but I thought it was passable. While I think the writing has been pretty even from week to week, the artwork has certainly been a mixed bag.

Given the magnitude of this project, I don't think it's unreasonable that the issues will occasionally be a week or two ahead of or behind some of the connecting titles. As long as it's only a week or two, I for one will not complain.

For instance, last week's Atom title referenced this week's CD. No big deal. On the other hand, I'm still trying to figure out how the two connect. Evidently the new Atom went looking for Ray on his own and then, upon returning, ran into the Donna, Jason & the Monitor, who wanted him to help them with the same? Is that it? Seems a bit odd, but I guess it works.

Btw, since several folks are expressing an interest in the Jimmy Olsen plotline and what Superman's role is, next week's Action Comics is the first of a three-part storyline that connects with this plotline. (And, uh, it ties in with CD #40--sorry.) Personally, I'm looking forward to picking this up.

[Jack Zodiac]

For instance, last week's Atom title referenced this week's CD. No big deal. On the other hand, I'm still trying to figure out how the two connect. Evidently the new Atom went looking for Ray on his own and then, upon returning, ran into the Donna, Jason & the Monitor, who wanted him to help them with the same? Is that it? Seems a bit odd, but I guess it works.

Actually, Ryan and Chronos were off looking for a lead on Ray's whereabouts by checking up on the miniature alien civilization living in the rainforest from Sword of the Atom. After checking there and finding nothing, the Monitor, Jason, and Donna went to get him. This issue was, I guess, Ryan going back home first to check in with his friends before leaving.

[Captain Jim]

I think I said that, but you probably said it better. :)

[Erebus]

Trickster and Piper in the Secret Six? Sounds awesome.

[Jonah Weiland]

Justin and Brian have a full recap and commentary on issue #42 of "Countdown" - what are Mary Marvel and the Riddler up to? How does Batman deal with the Karate Kid? We've got you covered.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11134

[NMoline]

Justin and Brian have a full recap and commentary on issue #42 of "Countdown" - what are Mary Marvel and the Riddler up to? How does Batman deal with the Karate Kid? We've got you covered.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11134

Good work over there with the recap keep it up. It is entertaining for Countdown lovers and haters alike@

[David O Burcham]

Captain Jim -- Ahem, if it's okay to have an on-topic post...

Sacrilege!

Btw, since several folks are expressing an interest in the Jimmy Olsen plotline and what Superman's role is, next week's Action Comics is the first of a three-part storyline that connects with this plotline. (And, uh, it ties in with CD #40--sorry.) Personally, I'm looking forward to picking this up.

There is also the recently-released trade The Amazing Transformations of Jimmy Olsen. Though it doesn't directly tie in to Countdown, anyone who has read the series so far will see the Silver Age inspirations for Jimmy Olsen's power bursts. I believe we'll see all of them reappear in Countdown.



GIANT TURTLE BOY!!!!

[sweeten2213]

I was a little confused by something. When Karate Kid sneaks up behind Batman, he says the LSH are returning to their time. That would lead me to believe that this was before they brought back Wally (accidentally), and Karate Kid stayed behind. Does that mean continuity wise, CD 42 took place before the conclusion of the Lightning Saga? If so, the way Lightning Saga went, I can't think of a time Karate Kid would have had time to go to Batman and tell them the LSH were leaving. Or was there a time?

[jv2k]

Yes. Yes it does.

[spEEdy]

I had to drop this...its going to take too long to get that "WOW" factor...
and spending $3- extra a week on this...no thanks!
:evilangry