Jim Starlin's Death of the New Gods

[TCJohnson]

I was really looking forward to this project before reading this interview.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=120379

Just...I don't even know what to say anymore.

[Cayman]

I think it's idiotic. Walt Simonson might want to consider dying just so he can roll over in his grave.

[Infra-Man]

DC Comics -- We'll kill 'em for kicks!

I've got a nickel that says a majority of these Kirby creations are being turned into legacy characters.

Oh yeah, and this wanton kill-a-thon is one lame ass idea.

[shrike]

I feel bad for everyone who likes the New Gods... after all, everyone likes someone.

That said, uhm... I really have always thought the New Gods and the other Kirby mythos stuff very very boring and very very overrated.

I never have got it. It leaves me utterly cold.

[TCJohnson]

I loved a lot of the characters. Especially Mister Miracle and Big Barda.

[heystacy]

I loved a lot of the characters. Especially Mister Miracle and Big Barda.

Miracle and Barda were interesting in Justice League, and Barda in BoP. Never got into the other New Gods much (not for lack of trying).

[PatrickG]

Kirby did intend for these characters to have a finite run and it's been DC perpetually resurrecting them and keeping them on life support.

I say get Simonson and Giffen on variant covers... and between them and Starlin, anybody who really belongs on a New Gods sendoff is there.

Then get Grant Morrison to launch the Fifth World he's been alluding to for years.

[TCJohnson]

Ugh. sorry, but I loathed what he set up in the Mister Miracle miniseries.

[stealthwise]

Ugh. sorry, but I loathed what he set up in the Mister Miracle miniseries.

I didn't care for it much either.

But then again, I didn't care much for the New Gods in the first place.

This whole thread is kind of a "who cares?" for me, but it's on the internet, so I need to be outraged at SOMETHING.



Dammit, TC, did you eat all the peanut butter cookies again?!??!

[TCJohnson]

Guess they are screwing over the Secret Six too. One of their main members is a New God

[stealthwise]

Guess they are screwing over the Secret Six too. One of their main members is a New God

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[JKCarrier]

Well, that was certainly depressing. Their new motto should be:

"DC: Nobody hates our characters as much as we do!"

[Pauly T]

I picture a new weekly series of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman's adventures amongst a universe filled with brightly-garbed corpes...

[Night Swordsman]

Knockout is not a new god,she is from apokalips.

WOULD not surprise me if they do kill her,despite this.

And wow,could Mr. Starlin been any more disrespectful to previous creators of New Gods comics?? I really have to wonder WHAT is going on in Jim and Dan's brain for this mess. I am half-hoping it is to do a full fledge reboot.

[TCJohnson]

Knockout is not a new god,she is from apokalips.

WOULD not surprise me if they do kill her,despite this.

And wow,could Mr. Starlin been any more disrespectful to previous creators of New Gods comics?? I really have to wonder WHAT is going on in Jim and Dan's brain for this mess. I am half-hoping it is to do a full fledge reboot.

Actually, Darksied and the rest of the gang from Apokalips are New Gods as well.

And I point you to this part of the interview:

NRAMA: If the end is nigh for the New Gods, where do Darkseid and Apokolips weigh in? Or are they in danger as well?

JS: I'm not sure why folks keep asking me questions like this. The name of the series is The Death of the New Gods, not The Death of Some of the New Gods.

[Night Swordsman]

Actually, Darksied and the rest of the gang from Apokalips are New Gods as well.

And I point you to this part of the interview:

Oh well. If this is true,then it is another nail on the cofin of my DC comics reading. Seems i will be buying Atom and Jonah Hex at this rate. :(

[Sabrinaset]

Well, that was certainly depressing. Their new motto should be:

"DC: Nobody hates our characters as much as we do!"


This is SO becoming my sig!

[Legato]

DC has managed to do one thing right in regards of this. They're actually making what happened in Civil War on the Marvel side look pretty good in comparison.

So I guess this is DC's way of saying "F**k You!" to it's loyal readers is it?

[Sabrinaset]

Another plus: Jim Starlin is going to make Chuck Austen look good!


So anyone wanna make a guess the New Gods get killed by Thanos? :)

[Jack Zodiac]

I think it's idiotic. Walt Simonson might want to consider dying just so he can roll over in his grave.

I like how Jim's whole point was "nobody's done anything great with the New Gods since Kirby himself," when he's responsible for a major chunk of that crappy writing, but he doesn't even mention Simonson's awesome Orion series. Because that would kill his and D Didi's point: killing off shit they don't care about because they're talentless assfaces.

I was gonna' give the first issue a go, but now... fuck it. I hope this series fails miserably, because DC doesn't deserve money for fucking up a good idea. Not anymore.

[KevinTBrown]

I don't know why everyone is so upset here. Kirby had a beginning, middle and end to his New Gods story. The end being that they just go away to another plane of existance. Perhaps not death per se, but no longer part of "this" universe.

Also, death in comics is just so permanent, right? I mean, just ask Bucky Barnes.... oh wait. ummm.. oh yeah! Just ask Hal Jordan.... no, wait. damn... ummm.... Got it! Just ask Jean Grey! No? dammit! Wellllll..... Ah hell, just go with it. It's just comics. Enjoy the story. This is Jim "Frikkin'" Starlin after all!

[Linkara]

I don't know why everyone is so upset here. Kirby had a beginning, middle and end to his New Gods story. The end being that they just go away to another plane of existance. Perhaps not death per se, but no longer part of "this" universe.

Also, death in comics is just so permanent, right? I mean, just ask Bucky Barnes.... oh wait. ummm.. oh yeah! Just ask Hal Jordan.... no, wait. damn... ummm.... Got it! Just ask Jean Grey! No? dammit! Wellllll..... Ah hell, just go with it. It's just comics. Enjoy the story. This is Jim "Frikkin'" Starlin after all!

I'd love it if they tried to do it in the way Kirby had envisioned it to end, then, but I've got a feeling what we'll be seeing instead is a massive slaughter of New Gods. Or, if they do move on to another plane of existence, then in a year or so we'll have a nonsensical story about Big Barda being imprisoned briefly by the US government and the Highfather returning, thus is born "New Gods Attack!"

[TCJohnson]

Also, death in comics is just so permanent, right? I mean, just ask Bucky Barnes.... oh wait. ummm.. oh yeah! Just ask Hal Jordan.... no, wait. damn... ummm.... Got it! Just ask Jean Grey! No? dammit! Wellllll..... Ah hell, just go with it. It's just comics. Enjoy the story. This is Jim "Frikkin'" Starlin after all!

But Didio doesn't just kill them off. He replaces them with lame legacies so that the old characters are forgotten, and it's harder to bring them back.

[KevinTBrown]

But Didio doesn't just kill them off. He replaces them with lame legacies so that the old characters are forgotten, and it's harder to bring them back.

DC and Marvel did that looooooooooooooooooong before the current heads of the companies. However, as much as I do like DiDio, I'm still supremely PISSED at how he handled/did away with Ronnie Raymond. Every time I see him at Chicago Con, I let him know. If you're that upset with this, I suggest you (and anyone else) do the same at whatever con you go to in which he's a guest.

[Night Swordsman]

But Didio doesn't just kill them off. He replaces them with lame legacies so that the old characters are forgotten, and it's harder to bring them back.

I will NOT dispute this,TC...but every once in awhile,it works.
In the 80s,i remember Blue Beetle having his own book. After his appearance in CoIE,i wanted more. Needless to say,i felt i ended up getting LESS. The book wasn't awful,but it was pretty medicore for its time. And made me care less about the character till years later.

Now...I tried the NEW Blue Beetle,prepared to hate it.
Imagine my surprise as it is now one of my favorite DC titles. And for one reason: Characterization. Instead of endless super-battles being the star of the comic,the book is about the current weilder,Jamie,and his family,friends,and enemies and with great personalities.

Do i miss Ted? Heck yes. I am not also thrilled with the science fiction aspect of the Blue Beetle,but other than that,i am enjoying the current book a LOT more than Ted's 80s book.

[TCJohnson]

DC and Marvel did that looooooooooooooooooong before the current heads of the companies. However, as much as I do like DiDio, I'm still supremely PISSED at how he handled/did away with Ronnie Raymond. Every time I see him at Chicago Con, I let him know. If you're that upset with this, I suggest you (and anyone else) do the same at whatever con you go to in which he's a guest.

Just out of curiosity, what does he say?

And the thing about the earlier legacies...they didn't kill off the older characters to make room for the new ones.

[KevinTBrown]

Just out of curiosity, what does he say?

And the thing about the earlier legacies...they didn't kill off the older characters to make room for the new ones.

Usually laughs and is willing to talk about it. As long as you don't go off half-cocked, he's very reasonable if he's not on the run to a meeting or something.

This year though, I will have my "revenge" and laugh at him with the Firestorm cancellation. :evilsmile

[Jack Zodiac]

I don't know why everyone is so upset here. Kirby had a beginning, middle and end to his New Gods story. The end being that they just go away to another plane of existance. Perhaps not death per se, but no longer part of "this" universe.

Also, death in comics is just so permanent, right? I mean, just ask Bucky Barnes.... oh wait. ummm.. oh yeah! Just ask Hal Jordan.... no, wait. damn... ummm.... Got it! Just ask Jean Grey! No? dammit! Wellllll..... Ah hell, just go with it. It's just comics. Enjoy the story. This is Jim "Frikkin'" Starlin after all!

Jim "Frikkin'" Starlin who wrote Cosmic "Frikkin'" Odyssey, which sucked frikkin' balls aside from Mike "Motherfucking" Mignola's kickass art? Oh, yeah, totally sold! Jim "Frikkin'" Starlin totally got the New "Frikkin'" Gods in that one.

[Night Swordsman]

Starlin is a wonderful artist,but his writing is hit or miss. But when he hits,it usually is a fun ride.

Then again,anyone want to reread Infinity Crusade again?

[Sabrinaset]

As much as I like his art, I didn't even finish whatever the science fiction book he was doing with the Wierd and Captain Comet was.

Okay, Jim, I get it. You hate religion, you hate Christianity. I sort of got that after The Cult. I'd really like to see him write something that was PRO-religion, but that would be like asking him to grow as a writer or something.

[Aaron King]

Instead of cursing the darkness, let's hold a candle. Want some great New God's reading? Try the following:
Jimmy Olsen, Mister Miracle, New Gods, and Forever People by Jack Kirby
Mister Miracle Special by Mark Evanier & Steve Rude
Superboy by Karl Kesel & various
Orion by Walt Simonson
Secret Six and Birds of Prey by Gail Simone
Hawkgirl #61 & 62 by Walt Simonson & Dennis Calero

Some weirder suggestions:
the movie Masters of the Universe (that's right, the He-Man movie)
Ultimate Fantastic Four: God War by Mike Carey and Pascal Ferry

I'll toss something controversial in here by adding Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle #1-4... There were a few misses in the mini (like making good and evil correspond to human skin colors), but, I mean, Jack Kirby had the Black Racer (one of two things I agree with Jim Starlin on).

The other thing is that the New Gods were meant to die. Maybe not by Jim Starlin's hands, but Kirby had a sort of proto-miniseries planned. He was never happy with any ending he came up with, but it doesn't change the fact.

[DaeJi]

I'll give this a shot. I mean, Jim Starlin can tell a good story, and the New Gods were never meant to be a perment part of the DC universe. So, even if they die at least it keeps in mind with what Kirby had envisioned for them. Now, I just hope that it isn't some bloody mess and that they kinda ignore what happened in Seven Soldiers.

[Linkara]

As much as I like his art, I didn't even finish whatever the science fiction book he was doing with the Wierd and Captain Comet was.

Okay, Jim, I get it. You hate religion, you hate Christianity. I sort of got that after The Cult. I'd really like to see him write something that was PRO-religion, but that would be like asking him to grow as a writer or something.

You know, a few months ago, my Mom got her hands on the Babylon 5 scriptbooks and she revealed to me that J Michael Straczynski was an atheist. I was surprised by this, since a lot of Babylon 5 involves mysticism, religion, and spirituality. Today I read the Wiki on B5 and it said that while he was an atheist, he believed that religion is still an important part of people's lives and he was dedicated to showing that it still would be 200 years from now, plus he decided to give a whole wide range of alien religions and giving equal respect for all of them.

I really appreciate that. ^^

[Indigo Al]

I'll toss something controversial in here by adding Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle #1-4... There were a few misses in the mini (like making good and evil correspond to human skin colors), but, I mean, Jack Kirby had the Black Racer (one of two things I agree with Jim Starlin on).


How did you come to that conclusion? I haven't read the mini in a while, but i don't recall "good" white characters blatantly juxtaposed.

The 7 Soldiers mini is a difficult read, but it's an incredible use of the New Gods in many ways.

[TCJohnson]

How did you come to that conclusion? I haven't read the mini in a while, but i don't recall "good" white characters blatantly juxtaposed.

The 7 Soldiers mini is a difficult read, but it's an incredible use of the New Gods in many ways.

Well, other than Shilo himself, the New Gods were homeless white guys and Darkseid and his crew were all black.

[Michael P]

Well, other than Shilo himself, the New Gods were homeless white guys and Darkseid and his crew were all black.

So, other than the protagonist of the story, all the "good" characters were black.

Kind of a hole in your theory there.

[TCJohnson]

So, other than the protagonist of the story, all the "good" characters were black.

Kind of a hole in your theory there.

Well, first off it is not my theory. I am just stating facts.

And secondly, if you read what I said....all the good characters were homeless white guys. All the evil characters were black gansta types.

[Kevinroc]

Meh, it's more DC killing off a bunch of characters again. Vapidly losing interest.

[Indigo Al]

Well, first off it is not my theory. I am just stating facts.

And secondly, if you read what I said....all the good characters were homeless white guys. All the evil characters were black gansta types.

I'm gonna have to revisit the bit with the homeless New Gods.

As far as the "gangsta" types, I think that has more to do with how the New Gods are perfectly made to be grandiosely cosmic and weird, AND to seamlessly fit into contemporary popular culture.

Hip-hop, celebrity, psychotherapy, messianism and crazy "extreme" magicians (David Blaine) - what an awesome fit for the New Gods!

The thing about the mini is that it's way too raw and hard for what should be fun and optimistic characters. But Morrison went where he need to go with it, as it should be, without any real impact to the DCU at large (was it all just Shiloh's black hole hallucinations?)

[Kevinroc]

I don't know why everyone is so upset here. Kirby had a beginning, middle and end to his New Gods story. The end being that they just go away to another plane of existance. Perhaps not death per se, but no longer part of "this" universe.


Marvel basically did that a few years ago with Thor.

[Michael P]

Well, first off it is not my theory. I am just stating facts.

And secondly, if you read what I said....all the good characters were homeless white guys. All the evil characters were black gansta types.

Except for the hero of the story.

[KevinTBrown]

Starlin is a wonderful artist,but his writing is hit or miss. But when he hits,it usually is a fun ride.

Then again,anyone want to reread Infinity Crusade again?

Starlin is a GREAT writer/artist. When he's just a writer, he's fairly average...... I don't know why that is, but that's the case.

Mystery in Space was good, but not great. It was good enough for me to buy the entire 8 issues though.

[KevinTBrown]

Marvel basically did that a few years ago with Thor.

True.

But Kirby had this story planned out long before then..... Back in 1971.

[Kevinroc]

True.

But Kirby had this story planned out long before then..... Back in 1971.

Doing someone else's story is always difficult, especially when that someone else is Kirby.

[Night Swordsman]

You know, a few months ago, my Mom got her hands on the Babylon 5 scriptbooks and she revealed to me that J Michael Straczynski was an atheist. I was surprised by this, since a lot of Babylon 5 involves mysticism, religion, and spirituality. Today I read the Wiki on B5 and it said that while he was an atheist, he believed that religion is still an important part of people's lives and he was dedicated to showing that it still would be 200 years from now, plus he decided to give a whole wide range of alien religions and giving equal respect for all of them.

I really appreciate that. ^^

Being a big B5 fan,i knew that about JMS,Linkara. I still consider this a incredible thing,as a lot of other writers would use the time to go on a total science based view of the world and say negaitve things about religion,rather than INCORPERATING it into a storyline and show how powerful it can be,in both positive and negative manners and in a balanced situation.

And Sabrinaset? Jim has used anti-religion views before,especially with Adam Warlock and the Magus and the Church of Universal Truth.
Dreadstar as well.

[Jack Zodiac]

She knows. She was commenting on his overt and rampant anti-religious sentiments in his work. He obviously hates religion. A lot. And he lets people know. Every chance he gets.

[CBikle]

A couple of thoughts:

1 You have to admire Starlin's candor, although he does seem a little jaded and bitchy.

2 I think Didio is the guy ordering the execution; Starlin's just the guy firing the pistol.

3 Starlin makes it sound like this is a permanent thing.

I remember when he killed off Adam Warlock and Thanos.

That was supposed to be permanent.

[Night Swordsman]

A couple of thoughts:

1 You have to admire Starlin's candor, although he does seem a little jaded and bitchy.

2 I think Didio is the guy ordering the execution; Starlin's just the guy firing the pistol.

3 Starlin makes it sound like this is a permanent thing.

I remember when he killed off Adam Warlock and Thanos.

That was supposed to be permanent.

Give Starlin AND Marvel his due. He killed off Warlock(and Thanos,sorta...),and they KEPT him dead long after Starlin left Marvel. And it was Starlin who brought them all back,over 20-30 years later(i forget the time distance between that Marvel Two-In-One Annual and Infinity Guantlet #1,and too tired to look it up),and not Marvel. That is a heck of a long time to NOT touch a popular properity,and it gave the story a real impact,even today. From the sound of the same interview,it sounded as the names will be given to new concepts. And as for the "firing of the bullet",it sounds as both are to blame,but Starlin seems to be enjoying doing so.

And look at Captain Marvel(Marvel's version). Even despite him being BACK in the Marvel universe(ala Hal Jordans temporary return during Kyles run),his death that Starlin did is still intact and untouched. And that has been about 25 years now at least?

[Paul McEnery]

Well, first off it is not my theory. I am just stating facts.

And secondly, if you read what I said....all the good characters were homeless white guys. All the evil characters were black gansta types.

Well, that's about the dumbest thing I've read yet about Seven Soldiers.

All of the lead characters were black! All of them!

Jesus. Some people.

The point was that it was all happening in Shilo's head, so he populated it with characters from his own imagination. Shockingly, Shilo has a lot of black characters in his imagination. His shrink? Black. His girl? Black. And there's a problem with this?

Oy.

[CBikle]

Give Starlin AND Marvel his due. He killed off Warlock(and Thanos,sorta...),and they KEPT him dead long after Starlin left Marvel. And it was Starlin who brought them all back,over 20-30 years later(i forget the time distance between that Marvel Two-In-One Annual and Infinity Guantlet #1,and too tired to look it up),and not Marvel. That is a heck of a long time to NOT touch a popular properity,and it gave the story a real impact,even today.

I guess Infinity Gauntlet was a sales success, but nothing memorable has been done with the characters since. Bringing them back was a mistake.

From the sound of the same interview,it sounded as the names will be given to new concepts.

That sounded like more of a cynical, educated guess on Starlin's part as opposed to anything concrete.

And as for the "firing of the bullet",it sounds as both are to blame,but Starlin seems to be enjoying doing so.

He referred to it as "a mercy killing".

[Sabrinaset]

Really, Starlin just hasn't been the same since Slott had Squirrel Girl defeat Thanos in the GLX Special.

[Night Swordsman]

Really, Starlin just hasn't been the same since Slott had Squirrel Girl defeat Thanos in the GLX Special.

Nothing defeats Squirrel Girl. Nothing.
Except Molly Hayes,maybe.

[Azrael52]

Hmm. This is going to really surprise Sk, Ringslinger, and MonkeyBoy, but . . . I'll be buying this. I really hate the idea of killing them off. I do want to see how they do it and if they leave it open for their return. I also, kinda got the feeling that Starlin was hedging his bets on that interview. I've been wrong before (Yeah, Jade wasn't killed just so they could bring her back in Ion like I thought ((would've been cool, though))).

[Sabrinaset]

Actually, I just found out when Starlin started to lose it. It was right about here ...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i198/RaikouTheLightning/copthanos9yk.jpg

[Leslie Lee III]

Wait....a mainstream comic story with a defined end? Wow. I'm surprised the internet hasn't completely broken yet. I look forward to it. Starlin's always been a favorite, and the subject matter seems top notch.

I'd really like to see him write something that was PRO-religion, but that would be like asking him to grow as a writer or something.

I think that would be asking him to lie for the sake of not clashing with your beliefs. That's your reverand's/priest's job, not his. I really don't think it's fair of any fan to expect this sort of thing from an author, even comic book authors who most fanlings view as automated script machines rather than creative artists.

[Sabrinaset]

I really don't think it's fair of any fan to expect this sort of thing from an author, even comic book authors who most fanlings view as automated script machines rather than creative artists.


You're making my point for me. When it comes to religious plotlines, Starlin IS an automated script machine. "Religion:bad *clk* Religion:bad *clk*" I could be an athiest and still find his inane plot repetition tedious in this regard. Honestly, play a diferent card, Starlin. Try something new. That's not too much to ask, is it? Or shouldn't I hold out for something better, or at least different?

[Cayman]

Starlin does seem to love his evil space churches.

[Leslie Lee III]

You're making my point for me.

You're point is that he'd "grow" as a writer if he wrote some bullshit that would make you feel more comfortable with your beliefs. First, if your beliefs are threatened by mainstream superhero comic books that says something about the beliefs. Second, it's incredibly unfair to demand that of a writer. Writer's should be able to, within reason, tell the stories they want to tell and express the ideas they want to express even if everyone doesn't agree with them.

For example, I found one Joe Kelly, who is very found of tackling "too heavy for comics" issues, JLA story absolutely infuriating in its moral implications. He's still a great writer and it was still a good story, I just didn't agree with a point it made on an issue. That doesn't give me any room to demand he write from the other side for my sake. All that means is that I should use my own brain and evaluate my own opinions and reflect on what I disagreed with. Moreover Starlin is just one guy. We've had to deal with the endless amounts of Christian based theological drivel that can be found in every form of fiction, including comics. Even Mr. Terrific, probably the only Atheist in the entire DC Multiverse, is forced to work side by side with Angels. You'd think all of that would be enough to satisfy you, must you have Starlin on your side too?

[Sabrinaset]

You're point is that he'd "grow" as a writer if he wrote some bullshit that would make you feel more comfortable with your beliefs. First, if your beliefs are threatened by mainstream superhero comic books that says something about the beliefs. Second, it's incredibly unfair to demand that of a writer. Writer's should be able to, within reason, tell the stories they want to tell and express the ideas they want to express even if everyone doesn't agree with them.

My beliefs can hardly be threatened by Starlin's writings any more than they can be threatened by what you write. Get this clear: My problem is not that he's anti-religious, but that he keeps making the same point over and over and over again. There's a huge difference. I'd kind of describe this as repetitious and ultimately boring. Not exactly the hallmarks of a good writer. I mean, Ostrander made both positive and negative comments about religion in his Spectre run. I guess that's why I consider that, along with the Mandrake art, one of the best I've ever read. A good writer can do both. Starlin's just a writer with an agenda. I don't care about his agenda, I just would like him to start doing something different besides "Religion: bad!" Or at least move on from it.

You know, somewhere here is a thread Gail started about her describing a pitch she made to DC regarding a Batgirl run. In it, she describes turning Batgirl into some kind of devoutly religious avenging angel or something like that, but Gail, who IIRC is an athiest, was willing to to try to write other characters who don't share her viewpoint and put them in a positive light. In short, she's capable of intellectual diversity in her writing, and capable of growing as a writer, as opposed to say, going to the well over and over again. I mean, how often does Frank Miller get panned because he has an extremely limited range when it comes to women in his comics? It's the same thing. How many times does Starlin have to go to the well before it runs dry? My opinion is, it's dry enough now. I'd believe this about Starlin even if I were an athiest, because it's not about my personal beliefs, it's about his inability to do anything original. His religious villains (The Cilt, the Profit, the Universal Church, the Dreadstar stuff ... I think he did the same thing in some old Warren magazines I got years ago on eBay, but I could be misremembering here ...) all have absolutely NO redeeming aspects to them. They're all strawmen, something terribly, terribly evil to be set up as something to be justifiably knocked down. I'm sorry, but unless you enjoy bashing religion, I'm not seeing Starlin as a particularly good writer here. I mean, how about if the Universal Church actually was benefitting the universe in some way? Perhaps many ways? What if nearly every member of it was in fact doing good work? What if there actually was some kind of moral dilemma in fighting it? Might that not make for a better story than "Religion/Religious Superstructure = Bad"? And might not Starlin be a better writer for doing so? But no, Starlin stacks the deck so far that it really makes for a boring story ... and then he does it again and again. So yeah, it might well be intersting to see if Jim CAN go against type. Is he capable of writing a different character, or is he simply a one-note song?

Oh ... here's (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=126705&highlight=batgirl) the thread I was referring to. If you ever want to know why Simone > Starlin, here you go.

I remember learning how to write essays in high school, and the rule we had to follow was that in the beginning of the second and third paragraphs, you had to effectively write what your opponents argument was, then counter their argument with one of your own, followed by your best slam-dunk position in the fourth paragraph. Starlin just isn't doing that. I don't think he can see the other side. In this sense, a high school English student does a better job making an argument than he does.

[Thomas]

My favorite thing ever about Starlin:

He ripped off DC's Darkseid to create Thanos at Marvel, then ripped off Marvel's Thanos to create Mongul at DC.

That's deep.

[Night Swordsman]

I guess Infinity Gauntlet was a sales success, but nothing memorable has been done with the characters since. Bringing them back was a mistake.



That sounded like more of a cynical, educated guess on Starlin's part as opposed to anything concrete.



He referred to it as "a mercy killing".

1) At the time,it wasn't. Starlin had a hit on his hands,and started up not one,but TWO Warlock series at the time. This was the 90s,and Marvel was putting out everything AND the kitchen sink in order to appease the stockholders(grr!). The book sold ok,but did not last. Nothing back then did,really.
2) Sounds more like a LOGICAL guess than a cynical one. But that is open to interpetation. I just disagree.
3) Yes he did. And i honestly did NOT detect ANY attempts at remorse or sympathy to the loyal fans who have supported these characters AND DC all these years. Then again,i always hated the New Gods and loved the Eternals.
And that is a good example. By allowing Neil Gaiman to do the Eternals,he rebuilt without ruining ANYTHING done with the characters before,and giving fans a chance to experience them,many for the first time without having to know anything about them prior,and putting them BACK into the current Marvel Universe,Civil War and all.
Starlin seems to be interested in ending them. Period. Especially Black Racer,who he states he dislikes.

[Leslie Lee III]

My problem is not that he's anti-religious, but that he keeps making the same point over and over and over again.

I doubt that's true considering most writers, period, deal with similar themes over and over again. Yet I wouldn't demand that Gail Simone, in order to be a better writer, mix-it-up by showing that women are completely inferior and less capable than men at many things or something like that. That's what you're asking Starlin to do because of your own personal belief that there is some redeeming quality in religion. He either disagrees or just doesn't think it makes for the stories he wants to tell. Certainly there are far more examples of things that support religion in comics than the opposite. I mean, an angel was a part of the JLA. The Spectre is the divine wrath of the Judeo-Christian god. They fight over the spear that pierced Jesus for christ sakes. Why can't Starlin have his tiny say on the matter given all of this?

A good writer can do both. Starlin's just a writer with an agenda. I don't care about his agenda, I just would like him to start doing something different besides "Religion: bad!" Or at least move on from it.

So would that make Orwell a bad writer because he never really shows the good side of Totalitarianism?

You know, somewhere here is a thread Gail started about her describing a pitch she made to DC regarding a Batgirl run. In it, she describes turning Batgirl into some kind of devoutly religious avenging angel or something like that, but Gail, who IIRC is an athiest, was willing to to try to write other characters who don't share her viewpoint and put them in a positive light. In short, she's capable of intellectual diversity in her writing, and capable of growing as a writer, as opposed to say, going to the well over and over again.

Maybe Starlin wants to tell different stories than Gail because he is a different person?

I remember learning how to write essays in high school, and the rule we had to follow was that in the beginning of the second and third paragraphs, you had to effectively write what your opponents argument was, then counter their argument with one of your own, followed by your best slam-dunk position in the fourth paragraph. Starlin just isn't doing that. I don't think he can see the other side. In this sense, a high school English student does a better job making an argument than he does.

He's not writing argumentative essays, he's writing comic books. If you actually want to hear his full arguments I suggest you put down the funny books and email him. I'll say again we've had to deal with the endless amounts of Christian based theological drivel in every form of fiction we see. How much more reinforcement do you need? Religion has already made it's argument, Starlin doesn't need to help it pat itself on the back anymore.

[Sabrinaset]

I doubt that's true considering most writers, period, deal with similar themes over and over again. Yet I wouldn't demand that Gail Simone, in order to be a better writer, mix-it-up by showing that women are completely inferior and less capable than men at many things or something like that. That's what you're asking Starlin to do because of your own personal belief that there is some redeeming quality in religion. He either disagrees or just doesn't think it makes for the stories he wants to tell. Certainly there are far more examples of things that support religion in comics than the opposite. I mean, an angel was a part of the JLA. The Spectre is the divine wrath of the Judeo-Christian god. They fight over the spear that pierced Jesus for christ sakes. Why can't Starlin have his tiny say on the matter given all of this?

Sure, he can have his say. And here on CBR, we can debate whether his writing is up to par or not. Is he above criticism?

I highlighted one particular part of your post because I finally figured out where the problem is. You're hung up on the religion part. Okay, you DON'T like religion, fine. But that was never the main problem I had. I'm not complaining because I disagree with his stance on religion or even that I disagree with his beliefs, it's because he sets up religion as a strawman he can easily knock down without any kind of moral conflict within the protagonist or antagonist whatsoever. But let's use your examples. Along with Azrael, there was a woman from a pagan society (Wonder Woman) who worships Athena, Aphrodite, etc. I don't have a problem with her. The Spectre, in the Ostrander series, was put into morally ambiguous situations where his limited view of serving God was put to the test, and had a bizarro version of St. Michael flying about along with gay-bashing churchgoers. That isn't the issue. The issue is, can Starlin tell a story about religion that doesn't fall into the same old tired formula. The answer is, he can't.

I mean, what makes Dr. Doom special? Among other things, the fact that he's a ruler who has many sides to him, that he cares (in many stories at least) about his country, his parents, and art. He has class and is shown as a complex figure. Or the Sinestro Corps. Sinestro is evil, but he's also shown as having a purpose, that he's doing what he's doing not out of sheer evil motives, but because he wants to bring order to the universe. He really believes he's doing the right thing. Lex Luthor is motivated, at least in his better stories, as hating Superman because he believes in the supremacy of humanity. In their own minds, these people are doing the right things for the right reasons. Starlin, when it comes to religious factions, is unable to do this. His religious cults are just that, cults with absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and makes for a simplistic style, make for a storyline about as simple as TRON, and make for no real conflict. His religious animus (I assume) prevents him from any kind of artistic growth in this regard because he is unable to make any kind of religion appear three-dimensional, and instead Jim takes the easy way out and makes organized religuion into a set of one-dimensional villains with nothing to feel sympathy for. Even Stan Lee was able to make the Mole Man of all people somewhat sympathetic in FF #1 in 1961, but Starlin can't even do that. This limits him as a storyteller, although I still think the guy is a dynamite artist.

Maybe Starlin wants to tell different stories than Gail because he is a different person?

I want Starlin to tell different stories from the OTHER stories Starlin has told. I mean, can you tell me the intrinsic differences between the Profit, the Universal Church, The Lord High Papal of the Instrumentality, The Cult, and any other religious strawmen Starlin has invented over the years, outside of time and location? You're not getting it here. My complaint is that it's the SAME STORY, and it would be the same complaint if instead of religious groups, he had Warlock against the Universal Ecologists, Dreadstar vs. the Lord High Reverend of the Green, Batman versus the E.L.F., or The Wierd vs. the Cosmic Ecoterrorists. I'd be looking at Starlin and saying "Whoa! Jim has an agenda against the Green Party or something. I wonder if he can tell any other stories, or does he have a one-track mind?" And since he's essentially retelling again and again a story he's told over twenty years ago, I have to question his growth as a writer. I think it's a fair question. And I don't want to say it, but I think you're letting your apparent hatred of religion blind you to the fact that I'm not upset at Starlin because he's antireligious, but because he is repetitious.

[Night Swordsman]

Hey,Sabrinaset! NO BASHING the goodness that is TRON! :)

Other than that,i fully support your well thought out words! Thanks for posting!

[Leslie Lee III]

Sure, he can have his say. And here on CBR, we can debate whether his writing is up to par or not. Is he above criticism?

No one's above criticism, it just needs to be good. Saying a writer is bad because he has a recurring theme (and doesn't arbitrarily point out the "other side") isn't good criticism. Again, see Orwell. Or Shakespeare. Or Hemingway.

I'm not complaining because I disagree with his stance on religion or even that I disagree with his beliefs, it's because he sets up religion as a strawman he can easily knock down without any kind of moral conflict within the protagonist or antagonist whatsoever.

The Cult is not a philosophy paper. It's a fictional story. You're committing a logical fallacy by using them interchangeably.

But let's use your examples. Along with Azrael, there was a woman from a pagan society (Wonder Woman) who worships Athena, Aphrodite, etc. I don't have a problem with her.

That's very benevolent of you to allow a fictional character to have freedom of religion. Too bad we still know that your god is the all powerful god of the DC universe and it's been reinforced on several occasions. Why is that not enough? Moreover, where's the other side of that story? How often do we get an atheist perspective? Oh wait, we can't get it because we've already assumed God (Jesus and the crucifiction) exist not just in the DCU but also Vertigo. And you're the one complaining?

The issue is, can Starlin tell a story about religion that doesn't fall into the same old tired formula. The answer is, he can't.

Or maybe he doesn't want to? Maybe he finds religion gone amuck to be an absolutely terrifying thing worthy of being a villain in his stories? Maybe he's writing what he wants to write and not what you want him to write?

His religious animus (I assume) prevents him from any kind of artistic growth in this regard because he is unable to make any kind of religion appear three-dimensional, and instead Jim takes the easy way out and makes organized religuion into a set of one-dimensional villains with nothing to feel sympathy for.

Not every villain is, or needs to be, sympathetic. Everyone knows this. Morever, we're not talking about villains we're talking about actually stick around like a Dr. Doom. But someone like, say, THANOS that Starlin created certainly had that element. I guess he didn't feel like taking the "easy" way out that day.

[Citizen V]

Why is it that new writers want to kill or maim characters to get their name out?

[Sabrinaset]

The Cult is not a philosophy paper. It's a fictional story. You're committing a logical fallacy by using them interchangeably.

I never thought of Starlin as a master of High Fiction. I do think of him as a Master of Repetitive Themes.

That's very benevolent of you to allow a fictional character to have freedom of religion. Too bad we still know that your god is the all powerful god of the DC universe and it's been reinforced on several occasions. Why is that not enough? Moreover, where's the other side of that story? How often do we get an atheist perspective? Oh wait, we can't get it because we've already assumed God (Jesus and the crucifiction) exist not just in the DCU but also Vertigo. And you're the one complaining?

I just don't know how else to explain it to you that it's not about the religion, it's about the repetition. You keep stumbling over that point. For all I know and care, half the people running the DCU and Vertigo are athiests, and it wouldn't change a thing. The issue is Jim Starlin can only write ONE story about religion, and he writes it over and over again. I tried to show you what it would be like if he hated tree-huggers, for lack of a better term. People would think him stuck in a creative rut, or at least of limited creative mind. How about this?

JIM STARLIN: "Okay, for my first arc, the villain will be the Brand Corporation, an evil company trying to take over the world and price-gouge all of us into serfdom!"

JOE QUESADA: "Okay, and after that, Jim?"

JS: "I think I'll have my hero fight ROXXON, an evil company trying to take over the world and price-gouge all of us into serfdom!"

JQ: "Uh, okay, Jim ... and then?"

JS: "The Gideon Trust, an evil company trying to take over the world and price-gouge all of us into serfdom!"

JQ: " ... Okay Jim ... and the fourth arc?"

JS: "Stane International, an evil company trying to take over the world and price-gouge all of us into serfdom!"

JQ: "Uhm, right Jim ... so what evil company will our hero fight in the next arc?"

Do you see where I'm coming from now? It doesn't have to be about religion, it just happens to be that when it comes to Starlin. If Jim were obsessed with evil one-dimensional corporations, I'd be just as dissapointed with him as well. Sure, I have no problem with him making a totally evil group of religious nuts once or twice, but when he does it again and again, I have to wonder if there's some kind of wierd obsession going on here.

Or maybe he doesn't want to? Maybe he finds religion gone amuck to be an absolutely terrifying thing worthy of being a villain in his stories?

See, this argument makes sense. I could agree with it after the first or second time he did it, but after the third or fourth ... okay, what else does he have left to say? I'm finding Jim's repeated use of the same villain here to be the equivalent of religion-as-villain feuled intellectual diahhrea.

I can't believe I just typed that.

Not every villain is, or needs to be, sympathetic. Everyone knows this. Morever, we're not talking about villains we're talking about actually stick around like a Dr. Doom. But someone like, say, THANOS that Starlin created certainly had that element. I guess he didn't feel like taking the "easy" way out that day.

This is true. He didn't take the easy way out with Thanos. I just wish he would apply himself as hard elsewhere. Because let's face it, the best villains are the ones you can feel some sympathy for, and have some kind of angle where at least a small part of you is rooting for the bad guy.

Look, Leslie, I don't have a problem with you, I'm just trying to figure out a way to explain to you that my problem with Starlin isn't with him hating religion, because the first time I read ... hmm, I think I read the Cult first, and then the Warlock stories, and I liked both of them. It's with him getting stuck on the same topic and not doing anything new the third or fourth time. He needs to get over it, or do it from a different viewpoint, otherwise, he's just stagnant. I really shouldn't be reading a Starlin story and afterwards saying to myself "Hmm, didn't I already read that a few years ago?"

[Night Swordsman]

<pulls out a tissue and dries my eyes>

Awesome,Bree. That was a work of beauty!

[JKCarrier]

Why is it that new writers want to kill or maim characters to get their name out?

Starlin's hardly a new writer... he's been working in comics since the 1970s. And I doubt he just called up Didio one day and said, "Hey, I've got this great idea for killing off the New Gods!" More likely, DC editorial wanted them gotten rid of (no doubt to make way for some reboot/revamp), and since Starlin's sort of the go-to guy for cosmic death stories, they approached him. It would certainly explain why he comes across so cynical and sarcastic in that interview... he's just a hired gun carrying out another dopey DC editorial mandate.

Oh, and for a sympathetic religious character in a Starlin story, see Sister Marian in THE PRICE. Of course, she ends up dead... ;)

[Paul McEnery]

I've always been disappointed that Jim deeked left with Dreadstar. He'd kind of built up this cosmic mysticism thing, with various gods actually existing and manipulating the established churches, and vice versa, and then we're off with the comedy, and it just didn't have the same heft.

And he doesn't seem to have progressed that much with it. Although I did like the bit where Thanos destroys the entire universe and finds out it didn't work for him after all.

But yeah, where he seemed to be going -- hell, where him and McGregor and Englehart and Gerber all seemed to be going -- sort of ran out of steam. Especially when the new boys came along and stole their thunder.

Since then, there doesn't seem to have been much progress made by any of them as writers, though Starlin had done best, at least shifting his focus to interior spiritual development, and giving world leaders a good kicking in the bit where the Pharoah took over the Marvel universe -- that double page spread is great, with all the Marvel superhero heads of state included, which is a nice touch, and Jim himself giving us a very direct look.

But I don't know if his religion thing has made any progress at all, or really developed the early ideas, which is a shame. Mind, I didn't read Mystery in Space yet, and the Kosmic Kid thing didn't blow my skirt up either.

And I don't think he does team books that good either. The Weird was very bloaty. So I've got my doubts about this.

And I think DC is going to totally blow off the really neat Morrison idea that the New Gods might be memetic entities that merge with their hosts. That would be soooo Kirby -- it's right there with the Black Racer, and with Thor before it. And it would totally fly.

[Bright-Raven]

Bree:

Interesting thoughts on Starlin.

Just curious - what other writers in comics do you feel this way about, if any?

[jadrax]

And I think DC is going to totally blow off the really neat Morrison idea that the New Gods might be memetic entities that merge with their hosts. That would be soooo Kirby -- it's right there with the Black Racer, and with Thor before it. And it would totally fly.

TBH, I can see that being where this ends up. Lots of gods with dead physical forms searching for new bodies.

[Night Swordsman]

TBH, I can see that being where this ends up. Lots of gods with dead physical forms searching for new bodies.

Invasion of the body snatchers part duex: Divine Possesions is nine/tenths of the law.

:rolleyes: It would make a great Jim Abrahams/David Zucker movie.