Sicko

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

you guys have got to see this film!!,even if you hate Michael Moore with a passion that burns hotter than a billion suns going supernova you still owe it to your self to see this film.like all of Moore's film this one infuriated me to the highest degree.but h'm not gonna get on a soapbox rant just go see the film,i'm sure you'll be just as angry as i am about the health care system.however if your a hypochondriac i wouldn't advise watching this :D

[xnef1025]

This was an excellent movie and really brings to light a lot of things that most people just don't think about but should. I work for one of those healthcare companies(none of the horror stories were from mine though and the big boss they showed was forced into early retirement by the company due to those outrageous earnings of his), so I get to see a lot of what the movie showed first hand. I truely hope that one day we'll get government representatives that are willing to put me out of a job. Hell, our government could probably make up the cost just on the savings from not having to pay judges to hear as many Chapter 11 bankruptcy filings.

[Shellhead]

I'm moderately liberal, but I ignore Moore's movies because of his strong bias and unbalanced portrayal of problems. I did see Roger and Me, but strongly disagreed with his theme that struggling corporations have a special duty to provide unconditional employment to their workers while losing money.

So, even though I have heard positive reviews about Sicko, reviews that said Moore did a better, less biased job on this movie, I'm going to pass. I've been aware of the extreme problems with our healthcare system since the mid-80s, when my dad became a controller for a hospital, and I applaud Moore's effort to publicize these problems.

But his depiction of socialized medicine in other countries has reportedly failed to acknowledge the extremely high taxes that support those services, as well as the the painfully long waits for treatment that are common in socialized medicine. It's not unusual for Canadians to come across the U.S. border to get faster treatment, even though it costs them more money.

[DDM]

Michael Moore makes Dennis Kucinich look like a conservative...

[hoffmandu]

Regardless of the bias and proaganda he spews, there is definitely nuggets of truth in all of Moores films. And those nuggets need to get out to the public. It just kind of sucks that you have to sift through the shit first. Though, is it really any different than than any new channel?

[Justin D.]

Though, is it really any different than than any new channel?

Moore's movies are not news though. They're entertainment. Or infotainment if you want. Even he doesn't call his movies documentaries.

[Loren]

Moore's movies are not news though. They're entertainment. Or infotainment if you want. Even he doesn't call his movies documentaries.

From MichaelMoore.com's synopsis of SiCKO (http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/about/synopsis/):

"While Moore's 'SiCKO' follows the trailblazing path of previous hit films, the Oscar-winning BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE and all-time box-office documentary champ FAHRENHEIT 9/11,"

and from a Moore open letter (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2007-05-11):

"with regards to a trip I took to Cuba with a group of Americans that included some 9/11 heroes in March 2007 related to the filming of my next documentary, on the American Healthcare system."

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

well i see the usual suspects have showed up for this topic lol,but seriously people go see this movie!!!

[OhMyGato]

i think ill check it out. thanks.

[king mob]

But his depiction of socialized medicine in other countries has reportedly failed to acknowledge the extremely high taxes that support those services, as well as the the painfully long waits for treatment that are common in socialized medicine. It's not unusual for Canadians to come across the U.S. border to get faster treatment, even though it costs them more money.

Having not seen the film (it apparently doesn't open in the UK til September) I can't judge on what he says in the film, but it does seem (from interviews with Moore) that he paints a romanticised picture of our own NHS. Ok, it's still vastly better than anything you poor sods in the US has but it's in a horrible, horrible mess due to not so much the taxes (which most people don't object paying as the NHS is still an amazing achievment) but the shocking mis-management over the last 25 years.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

several stories stood out for me one was the guy who died waiting for a kidney transplant,the other was about the little girl who dies waiting to get treated.and also the girl in the beginning who started crying about how she has to take applications from people for health insurance when she knows they won't get it because of the myriad restrictions. She said (paraphrase)"I have to be such a bitch on the phone because I don't want to get to know these people, when I know what's going to happen to them." Crying because one of her callers told her husband not to worry, they would have insurance now, and the girl knew they would get a denial letter in a couple of weeks.

oh and the part where the hospital dumped their patiens on skid row.

[xarathos]

"YOu have to give him money or you don't have to speak about something you actually read about."

WHat stupid logic is this? His movies are idiotic and I won't pay money to see them. I actually go out and do research and meet people from Canada and other places and ask them how it is and compare to experiences here at home. I don't have to give money to some guy that saw 9/11 on television and smiled as he realized he could make 20 million dollars off everyone who died that day. I have to pay anything.

[Mutate]

I know lots of British people are complaining about the rosy picture he paints of the NHS

[MissKale]

I hate to say it, but while Michael Moore does do his part to dramatize the crisis, there really IS a crisis.

I spent about 4 months doing research for a publication on the state of the Healthcare industry and the supporting workforce. I also lived in Canada for about 6 years.

His numbers are pretty much dead on. They are frightening but real. They can deny you for conditions you didn't know you had. People are denied coverage for Diabetes supplies when they were born with Type 1.

People get fired when a family member gets sick. While there are theoretically "affordable" insurances they carry a high deductible and have maximum lifetime compensation.

The one that scares me the most?

The year 2017. If things keep going the way they are and follow predictions, we will have the first year where the supply of nurses and doctors severely undercuts the demand for their services. Medicare will be effectively bankrupt.

The average nurse is 47 years old, a lot of people's health insurance stops once they retire as it is now.

When I was in Canada, without a drug plan, the most my medicine would cost was 40 dollars a month. Now, I have to take a medicine that costs 235 dollars a month, and I will for the rest of my life. I have health insurance, that has a 1500 deductible, covers about 20% of my bills until the deductible cap is reached, and I currently make 15k a year equivalent with my current internship. But the medicine allows me to do my work and make that money. But when I fell and developed a herniated disk last month, I'm just glad my parents are willing to help me with the medical bills...

And with waiting? If I had to see a doctor for something like an illness? I could see someone the same day. If it was for a general checkup it would be about a month wait.

In the US? Its been about a week's time for an illness appointment. And about 2 months for a general checkup. When I was theoretically going to have an MRI it was going to be 6 months. And this was for a diagnostic related to a potentially life-threatening condition...

[hoffmandu]

"YOu have to give him money or you don't have to speak about something you actually read about."

WHat stupid logic is this? His movies are idiotic and I won't pay money to see them. I actually go out and do research and meet people from Canada and other places and ask them how it is and compare to experiences here at home. I don't have to give money to some guy that saw 9/11 on television and smiled as he realized he could make 20 million dollars off everyone who died that day. I have to pay anything.

Good for you, man, some of us have full time jobs and families to support. We don't have time to travel to Canada to ask about healthcare. You obviously have no idea what Farenheit 9/11 was about.

[The Batman]

Well, as was pointed out in the movie, yeah there are wait times in Canada and it's not necessarily perfect but I'd rather wait to see a doctor than not be able to see one at all.

I saw this and thought it was a bit of an eye opener. It's not necessarily the medical insurance industry that Moore's railing against but rather the lack of caring, the apathy, and the uncontrolled avarice that's taken hold in the United States. That's the thing that he's tackled, more or less, in all of his films.

[Valmore]

Well, as was pointed out in the movie, yeah there are wait times in Canada and it's not necessarily perfect but I'd rather wait to see a doctor than not be able to see one at all.

I saw this and thought it was a bit of an eye opener. It's not necessarily the medical insurance industry that Moore's railing against but rather the lack of caring, the apathy, and the uncontrolled avarice that's taken hold in the United States. That's the thing that he's tackled, more or less, in all of his films.

So can I see his movie for free? Or will I have to pay $10 to watch it?

[Comic_Mobsta]

So can I see his movie for free? Or will I have to pay $10 to watch it?
yes you can, its on google video...

[The Batman]

So can I see his movie for free? Or will I have to pay $10 to watch it?

Capitalism isn't the same as all out greed.

[TheLazy]

I live in the UK, and aside from the fact that all doctors are obnoxious assholes, the NHS isn't really that bad. The waiting times are better than shown except in rare extreme cases, and the service is good. Sure you don't have per-per view TV and caviar meals, but its a bloody hospital, not the Ritz. I go in to make sure I don't die, if I have to put myself out for a few days to stay alive I will.

I can't wait to see this film, and I'd consider myself center-right.

[jesse_custer]

Too bad liberals like Noam Chomsky or Michael Parenti don't get as much praise and exposure as Michael Moore. Then maybe we could get somewhere or hear well-crafted arguments from a different point of view.

[Captain_Video]

I look forward to seeing this one when it hits the U.K, Micheal Moore is quite possibly the best propogandist in the world right now, his stuff is wonderfully edited brainwashing at its finest, facts be damned.

This is especially good if he uses his powers for the right cause "Roger and Me" and "Sicko" being two examples.

I get a bit wary when he uses it as political attacks even though I would probably find myself agreeing with most of his politics.

The worst thing Moore did in my mind was try to portray Bush as an idiot, even if you do believe Bush is in the wrong, you make him an idiot and he is no longer responsible in the audiences eyes for his actions.

He is a great film maker a firebrand and a guy who needs to be around, if you agree with him or not you need a guy who will be a provactive voice, we need all the provocatuers we can find to get the world out of this apathy it seems to be in the thrawl of.

On Sicko specifically.

Our NHS needs fixing in the worst way, it is where a large portion of all my earnings go after all, I should not have to fear going to Hospital as if it where Victorian era London....universal health care is a good thing, but it can so easily go awry.

Ironically most people who can afford it would choose Private health care here.....I hope that Sicko helps the dialogue for universal health care for U.S citizens one day, but I also hope that healthcare does not collapse under its own weight.

[J. Robb]

So can I see his movie for free? Or will I have to pay $10 to watch it?
Download it off a torrent site. Moore has already said he doesn't care if people do.

(Of course, his studio disagrees...)

[BoosterBronze]

So, even though I have heard positive reviews about Sicko, reviews that said Moore did a better, less biased job on this movie, I'm going to pass. I've been aware of the extreme problems with our healthcare system since the mid-80s, when my dad became a controller for a hospital, and I applaud Moore's effort to publicize these problems.


I'm with you Shell. "Slightly Less Loose with Facts!" isn't what I think of as a glowing reccomendation.

[IamtheRock3]

what interesting

is the movie says people WITH insurance in America doing bad

[J. Robb]

Canada's health care system is certainly far from perfect but the thing that would help us out more than anything, and this is why "Sicko" is an important movie to me even though I'm not American, is if the US moved towards universal health care.

It's hard to run a compassionate, free system when you live above the world's uber-capitalists. We have to compete against them for costs, our doctors can head down there for more money (though some US doctors also move up here because they want to actually help people.) Our politicians are constantly lobbied by private insurance companies to try and convince us Canadians that our system is broken and should be dismantled, but even here in conservative Alberta, we're not buying it.

As for Moore's usual playing fast-and-loose with facts. Despite what the Oscars may say, he's not a documentarian. He's like the drum-beater at sports events, trying to get chants going. And this time his chant is "free health care for all!" ...Who could argue with that??

[IamtheRock3]

arent MOST documentaries bias

and tend to present one side of the story more then the other, if not presented the other AT ALL most of the time.

[TheLazy]

arent MOST documentaries bias

and tend to present one side of the story more then the other, if not presented the other AT ALL most of the time.

Documentary 101 would agree with this. A narrative that tells a story is usually in and of itself, bias, thats how we attach to the protagonists.

Even the news does this, by choosing which topics get covered, and which fact get presented, and how long each guest advocating their position gets on screen. Example:

If it was shown that immigrants support the economy, take up jobs that nobody else wants and pay a good portion of taxes, then you'd come off with a different opinion than being shown that immigrants come from fundamentalist countries (if you even believe that phrase at all), drain public spending and undercut local economy by taking away jobs and sending money back home.

[xnef1025]

Moore is definatly biased here. He shows no downsides to Canada's, the UK's or France's healthcare systems. However, long wait times, extra taxes and disorganization wouldn't really be a problem for most Americans since we essentially have that already.

The two big problems with American healthcare are cost of care and utilization of care. $1500 deductibles, $5000 out of pocket maximums and $1000/month premiums basically make any tax hike look like a pay raise to the average insured person.

Universal healthcare would eliminate the heartless and inane pre-existing exclusions, coverage pre-determinations for more expensive services and the need to see only certain "In Network" providers in order to get the most monetary coverage.

Anyway, one of my favorite parts was when Moore asked an English couple in the hospital, "How much did that baby set you back?" Before he caught himself the father said, "What are you talking about, this isn't America." :D

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

Anyway, one of my favorite parts was when Moore asked an English couple in the hospital, "How much did that baby set you back?" Before he caught himself the father said, "What are you talking about, this isn't America." :Done of my favorite parts :D

[J. Robb]

I think the very best line in the movie is: "If you have money to kill people, you have money to help people."

[rick]

I'm not a big fan of Moore's films, mostly just because I don't really like his style of in your face filmmaking.

However, again and again, I keep reading statements that Moore plays fast and loose with the facts in his films, and yet I never really read examples from people of what the facts Moore got wrong actually are.

Just today I saw several pieces on the internet debunking a report by CNN about supposed factual errors in “Sicko”.

So how about it gang, does anyone actually have some examples of Moore getting his facts wrong?

I’m not asking to be snarky, I just would really like to know.

[DDM]

I think the very best line in the movie is: "If you have money to kill people, you have money to help people."

Yet Moore traveled to Communist Cuba where anyone who speaks out of line of Fidel Castro's regime will be either jailed, tortured, &/or killed to promote about Cuba's supposedly wonderful health care system...

Since Michael Moore is farther left of Dennic Kucinich, I just can't take Moore seriously. What I find more disturbing is the Democrats who do take Michael Moore seriously...

[hoffmandu]

Yet Moore traveled to Communist Cuba where anyone who speaks out of line of Fidel Castro's regime will be either jailed, tortured, &/or killed to promote about Cuba's supposedly wonderful health care system...

Since Michael Moore is farther left of Dennic Kucinich, I just can't take Moore seriously. What I find more disturbing is the Democrats who do take Michael Moore seriously...

Well, to question the facts of mass media is natural, to disregard them completely without consideration is irresponsible IMHO. Like him or not, there is truth there, and it is important.

[Loren]

I think the very best line in the movie is: "If you have money to kill people, you have money to help people."

Catchy, but hardly true. Helping people is expensive, in terms of money, time, and resources. Killing people is cheap. You can kill any person, no matter how healthy or strong, rather quickly and with far less expenditure and experience.

[Loren]

Maybe. I am biased about the subject, I admit.

It all comes down to "intent." What did Moore "intend?"

I remember having similar thoughts after F9/11. In some discussions here at CBR, the question was raised whether Moore was trying to convince his audience that Bush was complicit in 9/11. Some folks here insisted that Moore never said that. Which was true. But after I watched the film with my parents, I asked them what their impression was, and they both walked away from the film convinced that Moore was trying to say that Bush was involved. After all, what else was the point of the extended talk about things like Bush's ties to the bin Laden family before 9/11?

[king mob]

I live in the UK, and aside from the fact that all doctors are obnoxious assholes, the NHS isn't really that bad. The waiting times are better than shown except in rare extreme cases, and the service is good. Sure you don't have per-per view TV and caviar meals, but its a bloody hospital, not the Ritz. I go in to make sure I don't die, if I have to put myself out for a few days to stay alive I will.

I can't wait to see this film, and I'd consider myself center-right.

The NHS is a mess-waiting times are (depending on your condition) are manipulated by managers trying to justify their bonuses to a government obsessed by statistics. Doctors and nurses are utterly demoralised by a lack of investment and 25 years of governments who have been trying to privatise the NHS.

Budgets are cut; GP's are over-loaded and the likes of Patricia Hewitt instutute overpriced IT programs that suck valuable funds.

This sounds bad & it is, but the NHS is still working & is still great in that it provides the basic healthcare that any wealthy, developed country should provide to it's people, regardless of how much they earn a year.

[king mob]

Yet Moore traveled to Communist Cuba where anyone who speaks out of line of Fidel Castro's regime will be either jailed, tortured, &/or killed to promote about Cuba's supposedly wonderful health care system...

Since Michael Moore is farther left of Dennic Kucinich, I just can't take Moore seriously. What I find more disturbing is the Democrats who do take Michael Moore seriously...

You paint a somewhat distorted picture of modern Cuba. Ok, it's not a bastion of free speech or human rights but it's moving in the right direction and it's built up a healthy tourist industry that is helping the country become wealthier.

Moore is left but he's not far left, not by the rest of the world outside the US' standards.

[king mob]

So how about it gang, does anyone actually have some examples of Moore getting his facts wrong?



It's not so much getting facts wrong, but the thing that pissed me off about Moore (apart from the end of Bowling For Columbine which was sneering at an easy target in Charlton Heston) was the portrayal of Iraq as a jolly, happy place before the US, UK and it's allies invaded it.

Iraq was not a jolly place, it also wasn't the hellishly repressive regeime determined to nuke the West into dust that Buch & Blair would have had us believe. Moore spinning a bit of propaganda which is just as bad as something Alistair Campbell would is not helpful to him as a film-maker, or as an activist.

[ragnarok_2012]

I've watched Sicko in the theater twice already, and I highly recommend it.

I have read up on the subject, and to my knowledge the documentary is pretty accurate.

I'd also point out that nothing is perfect, and any of those systems would be a tremendous improvement over the current one in place in the U.S.

My biggest criticisms:

There is no reference to the system in place in Germany. It's my understanding that Hillary Clinton was wanting to put something like the German system in place in America in the 90's, and he only covers Canada, Cuba, France & Britain's healthcare systems.

Also, I do feel that he embeds a political ad for Hillary in the middle of the documentary.

There's a photo montage of her from about college age up to more recent pictures set to music as Michael Moore say something like:

"Smart.....sassy.....sexy......some men couldn't handle it."

He does have the honesty to later show that Hillary gets a tremendous amount of money from the healthcare industry now (second in the senate only to Rick Santorum).

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

Also, I do feel that he embeds a political ad for Hillary in the middle of the documentary.i felt that way too,but afterwards he kinda lampoons her as well for being "bought off".

[ragnarok_2012]

i felt that way too,but afterwards he kinda lampoons her as well for being "bought off".

Yeah, he does.

But I think that the way it's set up, I'm encouraged to remember the first part and forget all the messy details re: Hillary Clinton.

I fear that that'll be enough to get some people to avoid the documentary. Which is a shame, because I highly recommend it. But it's my honest opinion.

[ragnarok_2012]

I put up a review (http://ragnarok-2012.livejournal.com/176161.html#cutid1) of Sicko on my blog a few days ago.

In talking to people in real life, the biggest objection I've found to watching the documentary is that it's sure to be too sad.

And there's something to that. I found it incredibly depressing at times (though repeated viewings make it easier to tolerate).

More importantly, there is extra information in the credits of Sicko:

Hook-A-Canuck (http://www.hook-a-canuck.com/) is apparently a site that helps Americans find Canadians to marry in order to gain access to their healthcare system.

[blackdragon6]

In talking to people in real life, the biggest objection I've found to watching the documentary is that it's sure to be too sad.

.
it sure is,i remember my mom's friend was in so much pain but couldn't get to a doctor cause she had no car.so she waited about a week for someone to take her.simply because she couldn't afford the bill from the ambulance.not only that i remember my mom having to pay 600 bucks for a arm splint/cast or whatever from where she had fallen.....

[blackdragon6]

Just today I saw several pieces on the internet debunking a report by CNN about supposed factual errors in “Sicko”.

.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta comes to mind.:D

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

believe me i have my fair share of billed horror stories of the ER.ever since i was a lil girl i have been in and out of the hospital,for bumps, bruises, grazes, sprains, stitches etc etc (ah to be a kid again),anyways my parents always dreaded the hospital bills (likewise with my younger siblings).we never had insurance but my parents always had money to pay the medical bills.i tried several times to get insurance during my college years but i eventually gave up.and speaking of outragous cast billings i was in a motorcycle accident and i needed a cast for my wrists and they charged my ass 1200 for them.

[Shellhead]

I've been really lucky. I've only needed medical care three times since I went off my parents' insurance coverage. The stitches in my hand were done for free when my dad was still a hospital controller. The whiplash was completely covered by my auto insurance. The severe eye infection was inexpensive enough that it all fell under the deductible, so I had to pay a few hundred myself for the emergency care, the medication, and the follow-up with the eye doctor.

[blackdragon6]

the medical olympics circa 94 i think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUcw_foeg3Y

[J. Robb]

the medical olympics circa 94 i think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUcw_foeg3Y
Man, I loved TV Nation. Michael Moore was a lot more fun before the Bush presidency made him so angry (which is understandable, though.)

[Loren]

Man, I loved TV Nation. Michael Moore was a lot more fun before the Bush presidency made him so angry (which is understandable, though.)

I have rather fond memories of TV Nation too. Even what little I saw of The Awful Truth wasn't the same. Angry Moore is simply less enjoyable than the earlier, more jolly Moore.

I wish YouTube had some clips of "Love Night," which was all about hate groups. Moore sent a mariachi band to a KKK rally, a multicultural cheerleader squad to an Aryan Nation convention, etc. The closest clip is from another episode, which profiles the KKK Image Makeover (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H9PK9wNtdI).

[Mac Danny]

Right now my health Insurance with my spouse on my coverage costs about $200 a month. That is a little under 10% of my paycheck. I would gladly pay that in taxes if I knew that if I needed it I could get help.

[hoffmandu]

Right now my health Insurance with my spouse on my coverage costs about $200 a month. That is a little under 10% of my paycheck. I would gladly pay that in taxes if I knew that if I needed it I could get help.

I would to. Just the fact I don't have to worry about an insurance company jerk-off looking over my case and trying to screw me over is enough to sway me. Insurance is a racket. It needs major reform.

I guess I really just don't know what the problem is with healthcare reform. The industry is obviously shady as hell. It's pretty much mandatory to have it regarding all aspects of life; car, life, med, home etc.. Federalize it, take the profit margin out of the equation. I pay out the ass monthly for it already so the "added tax" thing doesn't bug me at all. And I'm sure we an learn from other country's mistakes as far as being effective and efficiency.

[DDM]

Right now my health Insurance with my spouse on my coverage costs about $200 a month. That is a little under 10% of my paycheck. I would gladly pay that in taxes if I knew that if I needed it I could get help.

Do you really want a government controlled heath care??? All we would get is another bureaucracy with longer wait times; in the meantime, people who need to critical attention will have to wait for far longer period instead of receiving immediate medical attention. The wait times would be the approval process for certain procedures & waiting in the "line" of other people "ahead" of you.

Socialized health care will create more problems than be the panacea Michael Moore is making it to be.

Higher taxes & government corruption will run rampant with the program while the normal folks are treated less than the current situation.

Socialized medicine will also halt progress for new drugs, vaccines, & procedures because it will be in control of the faceless, government bureaucracy.

[Mac Danny]

Do you really want a government controlled heath care??? All we would get is another bureaucracy with longer wait times; in the meantime, people who need to critical attention will have to wait for far longer period instead of receiving immediate medical attention. The wait times would be the approval process for certain procedures & waiting in the "line" of other people "ahead" of you.

Socialized health care will create more problems than be the panacea Michael Moore is making it to be.

Higher taxes & government corruption will run rampant with the program while the normal folks are treated less than the current situation.

Socialized medicine will also halt progress for new drugs, vaccines, & procedures because it will be in control of the faceless, government bureaucracy.

It's funny, Since I have to spend the money, I'd rather spend it and have the certainty that I would wait but get treated instead of thinking I am covered by the money I spend, only to find out that I am not.

If the insurance company would just treat what ails you instead of finding ways to deny you, then I would have no trouble with an insurance company.

No solution is perfect, they all have their pluses and minuses. For me, the idea that the money I spend on health insurance may not help cover the care and services I need would chap my ass more than waiting in line like the DMV.

Also, what is the wait. When I go to the emergency room, it is not like I am ushered right in due to my health insurance. I have to wait with everyone else.

When I set up a check up with my primary are physician, I have to wait at least a month to get an appointment, pay 10$ as a copay to see a doctor for 10 minutes. Only afterwards to have him tell me"come see me if it gets worse."

Maybe government sponsored health care isn't the answer, maybe the answer is an insurance company bold enough to cover you with the money you spend on them and not give you the run around on services. Like a Geico for health care.

Until such a company exists, I'll take the government and not pay 40$ for an ace bandage. That is disgusting right there. An Ace bandage is 1.35 at the drug store for 5 yards. It's 40$ in the hospital. If anything it should be cheaper because they should stock a lot more and get a volume discount. make a profit with the admin fees and the Doctor fees, but not on parts. That's just wrong.

[The Batman]

Do you really want a government controlled heath care??? All we would get is another bureaucracy with longer wait times; in the meantime, people who need to critical attention will have to wait for far longer period instead of receiving immediate medical attention. The wait times would be the approval process for certain procedures & waiting in the "line" of other people "ahead" of you.

Socialized health care will create more problems than be the panacea Michael Moore is making it to be.

Higher taxes & government corruption will run rampant with the program while the normal folks are treated less than the current situation.

Socialized medicine will also halt progress for new drugs, vaccines, & procedures because it will be in control of the faceless, government bureaucracy.

Should we begin privatizing police services and firefighters too?

How about the military?

[hoffmandu]

Should we begin privatizing police services and firefighters too?

How about the military?


Good point, real good point. I'm kind of sick of the arguement regarding the higher taxes end of the deal. I mean, we're paying anyway and it sucks. And those who don't pay, don't have coverage that they definitely need.

[TheLazy]

The NHS is a mess-waiting times are (depending on your condition) are manipulated by managers trying to justify their bonuses to a government obsessed by statistics. Doctors and nurses are utterly demoralised by a lack of investment and 25 years of governments who have been trying to privatise the NHS.

Budgets are cut; GP's are over-loaded and the likes of Patricia Hewitt instutute overpriced IT programs that suck valuable funds.

This sounds bad & it is, but the NHS is still working & is still great in that it provides the basic healthcare that any wealthy, developed country should provide to it's people, regardless of how much they earn a year.

The longest I've ever waited was 8 hours and that's because I let some people that seemed worse off go in front of me. The worst experience I've ever had was a doctor refusing to admit he misdiagnosed me, but that is the doctor's fault not the NHS'. The waiting list arguement is null anyway. I'd be more content knowing my grandma died waiting for heart treatment that know she died because she couldn't afford it.

[StoneGold]

Do you really want a government controlled heath care??? All we would get is another bureaucracy with longer wait times; in the meantime, people who need to critical attention will have to wait for far longer period instead of receiving immediate medical attention. The wait times would be the approval process for certain procedures & waiting in the "line" of other people "ahead" of you.
.

Anyone want to explain how that's different from the way things are now?

[The Batman]

The insurance companies try to keep the waiting lines shorter by denying some people treatment and making it so that other people can't afford treatment?

[Mac Danny]

Anyone want to explain how that's different from the way things are now?

It's different cause it's run by the government... You know you can't trust those elected fat cats! You can only trust Multi million dollar corporations who's board you have no control over.

[Jared]

Canada, France, and the U.K. all have a fractions of the U.S's population, that's something that needs to be kept in mind when considering potential costs. It's nice to assume that we'd just have to pay what they pay, proportionatly, but things seldom work out so simply. Regardless, this is an issue actually worth talking about, but it's a shame that Moore has to be the one to bring it up, because he's so abrasive he's automatically guarantees signifigant amount of backlash and apathy to his views. Incidentally, didn't Moore say on Real Time about a month ago that he'd lost alot of weight because he felt hypocritical talking about health-care while he didn't take care of himself? He's still looking a bit like Boss Nass these days.

I lean conservative and I thought TV Nation was great. Janeane Garafalo storming a residents-only beach was class. Then there was his attempt to bring peace to Bosnia by playing the Barney song for the ambassadors.

I saw most of the Moore vs. CNN argument the last couple days. CNN did make a clear factual error in their first report which they acknowledged. But they seemed to otherwise be more consistent with their sources than Moore was. Is it me, or was Moore making fun of Sanjay Gupta's name at the end of the first clip?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=JpKoN40K7mA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Nz87QXGekSs
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NigJWljP7ug

[StoneGold]

Regardless, this is an issue actually worth talking about, but it's a shame that Moore has to be the one to bring it up, because he's so abrasive he's automatically guarantees signifigant amount of backlash and apathy to his views. Incidentally, didn't Moore say on Real Time about a month ago that he'd lost alot of weight because he felt hypocritical talking about health-care while he didn't take care of himself? He's still looking a bit like Boss Nass these days.


Who would have been a good person to bring it up though? Any time anyone does, it usually gets shouted down.

As for the fat thing, yeah, he's still fat, but he is looking a tad less fat. It is hard to go from Jabba to Jar Jar, if you're going to keep to the bad Star Wars references. I mean, if you weigh 300 pounds, and you lose 40, that's a pretty huge accomplishment. You'd still be fat, though.

[Jared]

[B]Who would have been a good person to bring it up though? Any time anyone does, it usually gets shouted down.


As for the fat thing, yeah, he's still fat, but he is looking a tad less fat. It is hard to go from Jabba to Jar Jar, if you're going to keep to the bad Star Wars references. I mean, if you weigh 300 pounds, and you lose 40, that's a pretty huge accomplishment. You'd still be fat, though.

Offhand, I think Al Gore has the fame and credentials to do it, if he doesn't want to focus soley on being Enviro-Man.

And this wouldn't be the TV/Film board without a Star Wars reference at some point. :)

[StoneGold]

[B]


And this wouldn't be the TV/Film board without a Star Wars reference at some point. :)

Yeah, but there, I'm mostly saying that he might not be thin or fit or anything, but you can't really knock a guy for losing some weight, instead of for losing all the weight.

[J. Robb]

Canada, France, and the U.K. all have a fractions of the U.S's population, that's something that needs to be kept in mind when considering potential costs. It's nice to assume that we'd just have to pay what they pay, proportionatly, but things seldom work out so simply.
If the US had Canada's system, I think the way higher population density would make costs much cheaper compared to Canada. Up here we have a small population spread out over an incredible landmass, providing health care in remote areas is much more expensive on a per capita basis than in urban areas.

[IamtheRock3]

well to me

I always felt america has the best medicine cause you have doctoros coming here for money. So we get the DR HOUSES of the world.


but it the best medicine if you have the CASH for the best medicine. If not...well

[cactusmaac]

If the US had Canada's system, I think the way higher population density would make costs much cheaper compared to Canada. Up here we have a small population spread out over an incredible landmass, providing health care in remote areas is much more expensive on a per capita basis than in urban areas.

How much of Canada's population lives in the remote areas? I thought most of the ppulation lived 100 miles away from the US and most of them in urban areas.

Anyway, healthcare costs in America would get a sharp decrease if insurance companies were allowed to compete across state lines. The current system just fosters oligopolies with lax cost control.

[king mob]

Canada, France, and the U.K. all have a fractions of the U.S's population, that's something that needs to be kept in mind when considering potential costs. It's nice to assume that we'd just have to pay what they pay, proportionatly, but things seldom work out so simply.


The NHS is the largest employer in Europe and deals with the health of 50 million people. Now this is a smaller population than the US but you could do something like the NHS in America & not have to pay a huge amount of money per person for it.

[Toku King]

I really, really dislike Moore, so I'm not supporting him with his films.

[Toku King]

Moore's an asshole. He makes movies about bashing the country that gives him all of his money. He even said that he wants us to lose the war! What the frig is wrong with this guy!?
I loved seeing him portrayed as a terrorist in "Team America: World Police". I chuckled and said "Oh, so true!"

[TheLazy]

Moore's an asshole. He makes movies about bashing the country that gives him all of his money. He even said that he wants us to lose the war! What the frig is wrong with this guy!?
I loved seeing him portrayed as a terrorist in "Team America: World Police". I chuckled and said "Oh, so true!"

When did he say that? do you have a quote? you know, it wouldn't actually surprise me if he said it but I doubt it means it how you said it.

[king mob]

Moore's an asshole. He makes movies about bashing the country that gives him all of his money. He even said that he wants us to lose the war! What the frig is wrong with this guy!?
I loved seeing him portrayed as a terrorist in "Team America: World Police". I chuckled and said "Oh, so true!"


You think the war in Iraq is winnable? You think the invasion of Iraq was a great thing for your country?

Moore may have faults but he addresses issues that affect you, and your country.

[Toku King]

When did he say that? do you have a quote? you know, it wouldn't actually surprise me if he said it but I doubt it means it how you said it.

Ok, then. Go to Y.A.A.F.M.: Michael Moore on www.zipperfish.com

[Toku King]

You think the war in Iraq is winnable? You think the invasion of Iraq was a great thing for your country?

Moore may have faults but he addresses issues that affect you, and your country.

As long as we are over there, the terrorists will not be here.

[Mac Danny]

As long as we are over there, the terrorists will not be here.

President Bush?? Is that you?

I also have a rock that keeps bears away. Would you like to purchase this rock?

[king mob]

As long as we are over there, the terrorists will not be here.

Ok, this is the sort of nonsense that makes Moore's films look like works of perfection.

[DDM]

Ok, this is the sort of nonsense that makes Moore's films look like works of perfection.

The Democrats way of dealing with terrorists is not to deal with them which empowers the same terrorists. What he says is true. London is suffering from ill-attempt suicide bombings, but one day, the bomb will go off as planned what would you say then? American, as yet has not had any such bombings because we're proactive instead of reactive.

[DDM]

When did he say that? do you have a quote? you know, it wouldn't actually surprise me if he said it but I doubt it means it how you said it.

He does not say it. However, his excursion to Communist Cuba says enough.

[DDM]

You think the war in Iraq is winnable? You think the invasion of Iraq was a great thing for your country?

Moore may have faults but he addresses issues that affect you, and your country.

Moore believes in a totalitarian system of government. Why would he go fawn over Fidel Castro's health care? He wants class warfare & a whole class of victims. Without victims, the Democratic Party is nothing. When the victims does not exist, the Democrats "create" them with propaganda. Sicko is a good example of this.

[king mob]

The Democrats way of dealing with terrorists is not to deal with them which empowers the same terrorists. What he says is true. London is suffering from ill-attempt suicide bombings, but one day, the bomb will go off as planned what would you say then? American, as yet has not had any such bombings because we're proactive instead of reactive.

Unless you forget the UK has been dealing with terrorist attacks (which were partly funded by Americans thinking they were helping 'freedom-fighters') for nearly 40 years. We know through the hard way that not understanding why these people want to try to kill is not going to help.

America, the UK and those who invaded Iraq have helped make this. We've created 'terrorists' and this 'proactive' stuff is nonsense. As for America not having any sch bombing, do you really, honestly think that's because America is fighting the good fight in Iraq?

[king mob]

Moore believes in a totalitarian system of government. Why would he go fawn over Fidel Castro's health care? He wants class warfare & a whole class of victims. Without victims, the Democratic Party is nothing. When the victims does not exist, the Democrats "create" them with propaganda. Sicko is a good example of this.

From what I understand he wants America to have a decent healthcare system that befits the richest country on the planet. I don't see what's 'totalitarian' about that, or mentioning that Cuba (not the richest country on the planet) has a better standard of healthcare for it's population.

[king mob]

He does not say it. However, his excursion to Communist Cuba says enough.

So he didn't say it and you're lying.

[Norrin Radd]

In the totalitarian state of Canada, we can choose our own doctors.

We can also choose the hospitals we want to go to (as long as they're capable of providing the services we need).

We also don't have Big Brother insurance looking over our shoulder when we get seriously ill.

Really sucks.

[DDM]

In the totalitarian state of Canada, we can choose our own doctors.

We can also choose the hospitals we want to go to (as long as they're capable of providing the services we need).

We also don't have Big Brother insurance looking over our shoulder when we get seriously ill.

Really sucks.

But Moore did not travel to Canada to prove about socialized medicine. He specifically went to Cuba, a Communist dictatorship.

[shades of eternity]

er, he did :p

[Karl J Barnes]

President Bush?? Is that you?

I also have a rock that keeps bears away. Would you like to purchase this rock?

It worked with Pet Rocks in the 70s,so.....

[J. Robb]

Ok, then. Go to Y.A.A.F.M.: Michael Moore on www.zipperfish.com
As long as we are over there, the terrorists will not be here.
Imagine that, the guy who uses bad internet cartoons as a reference has a screwed-up view of reality...

[Toku King]

Imagine that, the guy who uses bad internet cartoons as a reference has a screwed-up view of reality...

Actually, I only meant the quotes shown, not the comments.
But of COURSE Moore protectors would take it differently.

[Karl J Barnes]

Actually, I only meant the quotes shown, not the comments.
But of COURSE Moore protectors would take it differently.

I just finished watching all the Y.A.A.F.M. episodes and though I'm not sure that I agree with all that was said in the commentaries;it is still some pretty funny stuff.

[Mac Danny]

But Moore did not travel to Canada to prove about socialized medicine. He specifically went to Cuba, a Communist dictatorship.

Only to contrast our systems. Cuba has no money, but everyone has health care. Canada is too close to the US for that kind of contrast.

[DDM]

Only to contrast our systems. Cuba has no money, but everyone has health care. Canada is too close to the US for that kind of contrast.

Cuba has money, but it is for Fidel Castro to use at will for any reason. However, I have yet to see Michael Moore move to the Communist country & become a Cuban citizen. He's not going to move there. Why? Fidel Castro's Communism would strip Michael Moore of all his personal wealth to use for the greater "good" of Communist Cuba. See, Michael Moore wants to be Fidel Castro, only he wants it to happen in the United States.

[TheLazy]

Ok, then. Go to Y.A.A.F.M.: Michael Moore on www.zipperfish.com

Assuming that quote is in context it doesn't even say he wants the US to lose, he says he thinks they will, which isnt that out there. Our forces are getting our hands handed to us daily, and just being there creates 2 people that hates us for ever 1 we kill.

it's hear say like this that gets spread around and before you know it, "ZOMG, Obama said he thinks Bin laden was right, and John McCain values terrorists more than citizens!"

As long as we are over there, the terrorists will not be here.

Wrong, do some homework and you'll find that being over there has polarized opinion in the world of you're either with us or against us (and Bush saying this after 9/11 doesn't help either), and since most people don't like being forced to do something, most people, especially in the country we invaded, are against us. Think, if they British suddenly said that Bush was a war monger and invaded the US, how would YOU react?

The Democrats way of dealing with terrorists is not to deal with them which empowers the same terrorists. What he says is true. London is suffering from ill-attempt suicide bombings, but one day, the bomb will go off as planned what would you say then? American, as yet has not had any such bombings because we're proactive instead of reactive.

A black guy also raped a white women over the weekend, lets invade Kenya.

He does not say it. However, his excursion to Communist Cuba says enough.

True, Moore is a dirty liberal, and thats not meant to be smart, socializing everything is the death of social evolution IMO, but I'd rather have him in control of 10,000 nukes than a retard that wears red and thinks he's rightwing. Bush has more in common with Stalin than the Lincoln.

Moore believes in a totalitarian system of government. Why would he go fawn over Fidel Castro's health care? He wants class warfare & a whole class of victims. Without victims, the Democratic Party is nothing. When the victims does not exist, the Democrats "create" them with propaganda. Sicko is a good example of this.

True, true, but the democrats are going to be running your country in 18 months and you can all blame Bush for that.

But Moore did not travel to Canada to prove about socialized medicine. He specifically went to Cuba, a Communist dictatorship.

If more went to Nazi Germany in the 40's and found a higher standard of public health, does that make him a Nazi? Wake up and think for yourself, you never know, you might like it.

Actually, I only meant the quotes shown, not the comments.
But of COURSE Moore protectors would take it differently.

I'm not a Moore protector though, Moore is jackass, but he has a valid point, you know, kind of like how those hypocrites that call themselves pro-life have a valid point about abortion, so instead of taking off hand out of context quotes from a friend of a friend who heard it on and ultra left/right show, why don't you read up on a few policies and facts, then we can have a proper discussion. Didn't you say you lived in the UK anyway? It's pretty ironic to call Moore a socialist whilst knowing you have the NHS to fall back on.

Cuba has money, but it is for Fidel Castro to use at will for any reason. However, I have yet to see Michael Moore move to the Communist country & become a Cuban citizen. He's not going to move there. Why? Fidel Castro's Communism would strip Michael Moore of all his personal wealth to use for the greater "good" of Communist Cuba. See, Michael Moore wants to be Fidel Castro, only he wants it to happen in the United States.

How'd you come to that conclusion?

[Mac Danny]

Cuba has money, but it is for Fidel Castro to use at will for any reason. However, I have yet to see Michael Moore move to the Communist country & become a Cuban citizen. He's not going to move there. Why? Fidel Castro's Communism would strip Michael Moore of all his personal wealth to use for the greater "good" of Communist Cuba. See, Michael Moore wants to be Fidel Castro, only he wants it to happen in the United States.

I don't think he wants to be Castro. I really don't think that is it.

Why is everyone so afraid of NHS? Is everyone in love with their HMO's but me?

[king mob]

Cuba has money

Only in the sense that the guy begging down the road has some coins in his hat. I've been to Cuba twice; it's amazingly poor but it's not quite a third-world country. It still manages to provide a better healthcare system per head than the US; this is Moore's point.


but it is for Fidel Castro to use at will for any reason.

Which is exactly what the leader of any country does.

However, I have yet to see Michael Moore move to the Communist country & become a Cuban citizen. He's not going to move there. Why? Fidel Castro's Communism would strip Michael Moore of all his personal wealth to use for the greater "good" of Communist Cuba. See, Michael Moore wants to be Fidel Castro, only he wants it to happen in the United States.

Eh? As said, Moore is an arse but he's not a hardcore communist; he's someone who does seem to genuinely care about the US and dispairs of what its become.

[The Batman]

Cuba has money, but it is for Fidel Castro to use at will for any reason. However, I have yet to see Michael Moore move to the Communist country & become a Cuban citizen. He's not going to move there. Why? Fidel Castro's Communism would strip Michael Moore of all his personal wealth to use for the greater "good" of Communist Cuba. See, Michael Moore wants to be Fidel Castro, only he wants it to happen in the United States.

No, that's not it.

That's not it at all.

Moore's point, a point that I thought was about as sublte as a Louisville slugger to the face so I'm not sure how you didn't get it, was that if a country like Cuba, a poor country run by a dictator like Castro can provide cheap healthcare for its citizens, then why can't the land of the free and the home of the brave? Why can't the greatest, richest nation on Earth give its citizens the same kind of healthcare that little dirty Marxist dictatorship Cuba can?

[cactusmaac]

Cuba's only got good healthcare for the political elite, the lucky few with hard currency and health tourists. Moore was stupid\willing enough to be suckered in by their PR. The country's been too broke for too long to afford decent healthcare for everybody.

[king mob]

Finally saw this & it's possibly Moore's best film to date, it's certainly a vast improvement on the scattergun F9/11. Yes it's polemical, yes he paints a far too rosy picture of our own NHS, but he's making a point & he makes it well. The film is worth seeing if only to reminds people that healthcare is there for the people, not for company's to profit from.

And here's why it's actually good he brings on Tony Benn to remind us of the point of the NHS, & why we should protect it from these same American companies who would love to see the NHS privatised.

I'd still prefer the film to be less about Moore, though to be fair he keeps himself to a minium compared to his previous films.

[reta-winter soldier]

As long as we are over there, the terrorists will not be here. man that;s just naive. Hell i don't like Moore either, not a bit, but do u honestly think that every single terrorist is from Iraq or that their affected by the invasion. Most are from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

The only ur doing is infuriating them a lot more and making the us waste a bucket full of money. Now I'm a bit lukewarm on the health issue, i truly don't believe in goverment doing things, the bureaucracy would be unbearable.

But the health system in the U.S is truthfully a piece of shit, their needs to be reform and fast, but I'm not sure if universal health care is the answer( ever noticed that those pro call it universal health care and those against call it socialized medicine). I mean why should I pay money If ur sick, and most cases( not saying that all of them) are because people don't eat right or exercise doesnt seem that fair.

[Thorlief]

I don't like Michael Moore either, he's a biased lardball. But hell, he didn't make up all the quotes, interviews and pieces of evidence showed in his movies. The fact this **it is true infuriates me much mroe than Moore himself