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lukababic

07-09-2007, 02:55 PM

Jason Todd aka Red Hood has been the 1st Robin, Joker beat him with a wrench, and let him die in a explosion (Death in the Family).

Then (in Hush storyline) Jason was imitated by Clyface, allowing him to hit the Batman where it hurts the worst. But it wasn't the Real Jason Todd, right, just an imitation?

There is a gap here in my knowledge about Red Hood, but next thing i know is...

in issues from 645 to 650 Jason is reintroduced, "fighting" crime, but actually eliminating the "gangsta competition" :) It is told that he wasn't even buried in his coffin. At the end of this storyline, he fights Batman, and Bats cuts his throat with a batarang, bleeding him to death. Joker then shoots the C4, and everything blows up... only Batman survives. The last page shows (what i think it is) a inter-dimensional versions of Batman suffering of a loss of Jason Todd... again, and all of them at a same time?

The story continues with a One Year Later issue... my questions:

1. How come Jason wasn't in his coffin?
2. In which issue did he reappeared?
3. How was he brought back to life (Lazarus Pit)?
4. What was that inter-dimensional shock at the end of issue # 650?
5. Why was the story continued with the OYL story, i thought OYL was immediately after Infinite Crisis?
6. Jason appears AGAIN after his 2nd death, how did he do it... again?
7. And how the hell did Joker survived that explosion if shot the c4 at close range... at very close range!?!
8. I haven't read issue #649, what happened... they say Nightwing died? WTF?

Damn you Jason Todd! Next time they kill you, you stay dead! What is DC trying to pull with him, trying to regain old Bat readers? No one ever liked the creep!

Buried Alien

07-09-2007, 03:16 PM

Jason Todd aka Red Hood has been the 1st Robin.

Second Robin. For some forty-five years before Jason donned the Robin outfit for the first time, a certain Dick Grayson was Robin the Boy Wonder. :)

Then (in Hush storyline) Jason was imitated by Clyface, allowing him to hit the Batman where it hurts the worst. But it wasn't the Real Jason Todd, right, just an imitation?

The fight started with the real Jason Todd, but during the chase in the middle of the fight, Clayface changed places with Jason.

There is a gap here in my knowledge about Red Hood, but next thing i know

1. How come Jason wasn't in his coffin?

He had been revived by Superboy Prime's punches on the dimensional barrier between his "paradise" universe and the DCU, and crawled out of his coffin six months after his death at the Joker's hands.

2. In which issue did he reappeared?

BATMAN ANNUAL # 25 gives the full skinny on Jason's revival.

3. How was he brought back to life (Lazarus Pit)?

Superboy Prime, who had been living in a paradise dimension with the Golden Age Superman, the Golden Age Lois Lane, and Alexander Luthor of Earth-Three since the end of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, punched the barrier between his paradise dimension and the DCU in frustration for being trapped there. The effect of Superboy Prime's punches was to alter reality in the DC Universe, including restoring Jason Todd to life.

4. What was that inter-dimensional shock at the end of issue # 650?

Alexander Luthor of Earth-Three was attempting to recreate the Multiverse that was destroyed in CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS.

5. Why was the story continued with the OYL story, i thought OYL was immediately after Infinite Crisis?

As the name ONE YEAR LATER implies, there was a one year gap in the storylines between INFINITE CRISIS and ONE YEAR LATER. The events of that year were covered in the weekly series 52.

6. Jason appears AGAIN after his 2nd death, how did he do it... again?

That has yet to be explained. My guess is that as improbable as it seems, Jason wasn't killed during that explosion in BATMAN # 650. After all, the Joker survived it too (and showed up for INFINITE CRISIS, happening concurrently...go figure).

7. And how the hell did Joker survived that explosion if shot the c4 at close range... at very close range!?!

That's a damn good question. The BATMAN writers weren't communicating very closely with the INFINITE CRISIS writers, apparently.

8. I haven't read issue #649, what happened... they say Nightwing died? WTF?

Nightwing (Dick Grayson) was near Bludhaven when it was destroyed by Chemo. He wasn't killed, though.

Damn you Jason Todd! Next time they kill you, you stay dead! What is DC trying to pull with him, trying to regain old Bat readers? No one ever liked the creep!

When the vote took place in 1988 whether or not to kill Jason Todd, it was almost exactly 50/50. The "death" vote won by a very slim margin. Doesn't seem like "no one" liked him. Roughly half the people who voted in that poll did...at least enough to want to keep him around.

Currently, Jason is one of the major characters in COUNTDOWN.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Paul Dee

07-09-2007, 03:23 PM

You really might want to get your hands on the Batman annual#25 that was out last year. It explains the details of Todd's return. I'll do my best though

Then (in Hush storyline) Jason was imitated by Clyface, allowing him to hit the Batman where it hurts the worst. But it wasn't the Real Jason Todd, right, just an imitation?

It actually was the real Jason Todd, at the start of the fight. The annual shows some of this scene and you see Todd confront Batman at first then he runs off and changes play with Clayface. It's doubtful that this was Loeb's intention when he wrote Hush and is seen as a retcon of sorts by Winnick.

1. How come Jason wasn't in his coffin?

He did die, was buried in his coffin, then shortly after he came back to life and smashed his way out (see below). The coffin was then replaced by Talia Al Ghul, who was looking after Todd when he returned.

2. In which issue did he reappeared?

No idea to be honest - you can see his return in the Under the Hood trade paperback though

3. How was he brought back to life (Lazarus Pit)?

In Infinite Crisis you find out Superboy-Prime changed reality by punching at the walls of the place he was in with the Earth-2 Superman and Lois Lane and Alexander Luthor. It turns out that apparently Todd wasn't meant to die and Superboy-Prime unknowingly altered this by punching these walls. Todd woke up quite shortly after being buried (no idea how long - few months maybe - basically he's been around for a hell of a long time after A Death in the Family) and was being looked after by Talia al Ghul who got him back on his feet.

4. What was that inter-dimensional shock at the end of issue # 650?

No idea as I haven't read the whole thing. This story took place before Infinite Crisis so I presume it was a reference to time being changed? Someone else will know.

5. Why was the story continued with the OYL story, i thought OYL was immediately after Infinite Crisis?

OYL later happens One Year Later after Infinite Crisis (hence the name :)) The chronology goes - Red Hood stuff -->Infinite Crisis -->52--OYL

Jason Todd reappears One Year Later in Bludhaven, having adopted the Nightwing persona.

6. Jason appears AGAIN after his 2nd death, how did he do it... again?

He didn't die in that explosion. You just have to accept he escaped somehow.

7. And how the hell did Joker survived that explosion if shot the c4 at close range... at very close range!?!

As above really.

8. I haven't read issue #649, what happened... they say Nightwing died? WTF?

Nah, Nightwing was meant to die in Infinite Crisis. At least, Dan Didio mentioned the idea of it but decided against it when the Nightwing fans vocalised a great disapproval of this idea.

I hope that's been of some help anyway. If I haven't explained anything very well or someone can add something then please feel free to do so.

edit: God damn you Buried Alien :) you've been a lot clearer as well

lukababic

07-09-2007, 03:34 PM

Jason Todd was the second Robin, my mistake, i knew that :)

When did Clyface and Jason Todd switched places in the Hush fight? And why would they do that in the first place? Bat said that Clyface imitated the current Robin, altering his voice an appearance a little to make an illusion of an older Jason Todd... if Clyface and Jason worked togehter, why did Clyface needed to imitate the current Robin, why not just use the real Jason Todd's appearance?

So about the timeline, it goes like: Batman #650, Infinite Crisis, OYL, 52, Countdown...

P.S. Joker's daughter, called "Something" Dent, is she actually Joker's daughter, or just using his name as a much deeper marketing plan to intrigue us, DC readers, more about her, thus dominating the DC universe and gaining comic book world dominance? :)

blackphoenix

07-09-2007, 03:46 PM

Jason Todd's comeback: Worst ressurection ever.

Buried Alien

07-09-2007, 03:49 PM

When did Clyface and Jason Todd switched places in the Hush fight? And why would they do that in the first place? Bat said that Clyface imitated the current Robin, altering his voice an appearance a little to make an illusion of an older Jason Todd... if Clyface and Jason worked togehter, why did Clyface needed to imitate the current Robin, why not just use the real Jason Todd's appearance?

Hmmmm. You've lost me again. The current Robin, both at the time of HUSH and now, is Tim Drake, not Jason Todd. To my knowledge, Clayface hasn't impersonated the Tim Drake Robin.

During the HUSH fight, there was one point where Jason broke off the fight and tried to flee. For a few minutes, he was out of Batman's sight. The switch took place during those few minutes.

So about the timeline, it goes like: Batman #650, Infinite Crisis, OYL, 52, Countdown...

BATMAN # 650 took place literally immediately before INFINITE CRISIS. The opening moves of INFINITE CRISIS hit at the very end of # 650.

After that came 52.

After that were the events of ONE YEAR LATER (which were published first, but occurred after the events of 52).

COUNTDOWN is what's happening in the DCU right now.

P.S. Joker's daughter, called "Something" Dent, is she actually Joker's daughter, or just using his name as a much deeper marketing plan to intrigue us, DC readers, more about her, thus dominating the DC universe and gaining comic book world dominance? :)

Duela Dent has a history as the "Joker's Daughter." She hasn't been seen much since before CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS (she was a Teen Titans character and member during the 1970s). I'm not up on her history, but there's probably a Wikipedia article on her.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

blackphoenix

07-09-2007, 04:08 PM

P.S. Joker's daughter, called "Something" Dent, is she actually Joker's daughter, or just using his name as a much deeper marketing plan to intrigue us, DC readers, more about her, thus dominating the DC universe and gaining comic book world dominance? :)

Pre-Crisis, Duela Dent was the daughter of Harvey Dent/Two-Face. She took the identity of Joker's Daughter/Harlequin because the Joker was her father's worst enemy(errr...i suppose that pointy eared bat fellow was a minor annoyance?). Post-Crisis, she is from a parallel earth: jury's still out as to whether she was Den'ts or Joker's kid on that world.

Paul Dee

07-09-2007, 04:20 PM

Hmmmm. You've lost me again. The current Robin, both at the time of HUSH and now, is Tim Drake, not Jason Todd. To my knowledge, Clayface hasn't impersonated the Tim Drake Robin.

No, he means Clayface impersonated the fighting style of Tim Drake when he's impersonating Jason Todd in Hush. Batman says as much and gives this as the reaosn he knew it wasn't actually Jason Todd (which is a bit odd as it was Todd at one point)

Oh, and to answer the original question, Jason didn't want to fight Batman for the whole duration presumably because he wasn't ready to unveil himself to Batman yet. He did however want to see him up-close and even fight with them so when he heard that Hush was 'working' Batman he saw this as a good opportunity, especially since he could swap with Clayface and not be found out.

Buried Alien

07-09-2007, 04:25 PM

No, he means Clayface impersonated the fighting style of Tim Drake when he's impersonating Jason Todd in Hush. Batman says as much and gives this as the reaosn he knew it wasn't actually Jason Todd (which is a bit odd as it was Todd at one point)

If I remember correctly, Batman told Tim that "Jason" had been attempting to mimic Nightwing's highly acrobatic fighting style. But I think you're right that there was also reference to Tim Drake's fighting style.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Paul Dee

07-09-2007, 04:32 PM

If I remember correctly, Batman told Tim that "Jason" had been attempting to mimic Nightwing's highly acrobatic fighting style. But I think you're right that there was also reference to Tim Drake's fighting style.

Just checked the book and yeah, you're right. It was Tim's "I am kind of unique" line I kept thinking of which mislead me.

Brack360

07-09-2007, 05:40 PM

Captain Jim

07-09-2007, 07:13 PM

Duela Dent originally claimed to be the Joker's Daughter (hence her "look") but it was later revealed that she was in reality Two-Face's daughter (hence her name). I believe she also went by the name Harlequin for a while.

The old persistent rumor was that Loeb's original plan was to have Hush be revealed to be Jason, but that DC nixed that scenario. So the story was changed to make it Clayface. And then, later, Winick retroactively established that it really was Jason at the beginning.

The Xenos

07-09-2007, 09:34 PM

You know it's funny, I don't think they've ever stated how much of a retcon Jason switching places with Clayface was. For all I know, Loeb always meant it to be Clayface working for the mastermind behind it all. It seems that was just invented by Winick after the fact to make his little fanboy crush more important.

Then again, the mastermind later quickly had his memory erased, so I like to just pretend Hush never happened. I wish I could do the same with Jason and that whole run, but the bastard keeps showing up in stories and major DC books.

(Oh and, hi! If you're new here, I'm one of those giant anti-Jason-Todd fans. Not that you couldn't tell already. Man, I wish we could get a neat slogan like the Kyle haters did with H.E.A.T. Well, at least they didn't turn a favorite character evil and then kill them. You know, they only temporarily turn a favorite character evil, almost killed another one until fans became outraged at the news, and brought a character back from the dead as quite a Gary Stu.)

Choppa

07-10-2007, 10:04 AM

To clarify, Superboy Prime's punches brought Jason back to life, but he was just a vegetable (he still had the injuries from the beating). It was the lazarus pit that healed his wounds and made him "normal" again.

As for HUSH, it was defenitly a retcon that it was the real Jason in HUSH at one point.

rwe1138

07-10-2007, 01:38 PM

Jason Todd's comeback: Worst ressurection ever.

Really? I'd say Norman Osbourne.

saintsaucey

07-10-2007, 03:12 PM

sorry i like that they brought jason back. winnik is one of my faveorite writers

lukababic

07-10-2007, 03:29 PM

So Loeb initially wanted to make Hush just with Jason, and then DC rejected the idea and introduced Hush? Well, it went pretty good! I liked Hush very much...

But about Jason, i think DC is just afraid to kill characters, i mean, of all the super heroes and villains throughout the years the only killed a few of them... and then after a while they resurrected them... and the ones that couldn't be resurrected, well, they said multiverse still exists. A little cleaning would be nice! Thats why Kingdom Come is kinda cool, they killed a bunch of them, but not enough... its never enough :cool: And that is why Elseworlds rule, they could do anything in there! Little off topic now...

But Jason, what good is he now to the story? To the whole DC continuity? Someone said that he is a lead character in Countdown, but really, how many people likes Countdown, i know don't. Its boring.

The writers just don't have any new ideas, and that is why they are recycling the old ones, i mean... Jason f**king Todd!?! If they are going to use him, they might as well come up with some good story, and not this crap they are writing. I mean, if a certain fan boy 20 years ago invented the story for a black spider / venom suit (which is something greatest ever happened to that crappy character), why doesn't DC makes a contest: Write a story about Jason, winner gets all he can eat at DC's cantina ;)

Loeb left story-writing business after sons death? Crap...

What would be cool to do about Jason? Except for killing him, that doesn't count. Maybe he could win Selina's heart, thus pissing Bats off? Kill Nightwing, i heard he already tried that? They are pushing him to become new underworld lord, maybe he should and anytime soon would be nice? if Lex Luthor could become the president, i don't see why couldn't Jason... and then we kill him :)

Hey, what about a Supergirl crossover (they said they need changes) - Jason kidnaps Kara, and she fells in love with him (stockholm syndrome), and they become the new killing duo! They could publish this in next Superman / Batman? Damn i'm good :) He wants Batman's head, she wants Superman's head, it would be the ultimate opposite of the Superman / Batman. And she was in love with Nightwing? A real love triangle, with a death twist at the surprise end: the baby is actually Batman's! Michael Turner could do the penciles...

lukababic

07-10-2007, 03:39 PM

Hey, i wrote that out of a joke and didn't realized how good it is until i read it again, who likes the Jason Todd / Kara Zor-El evil duo idea?

Maybe we should do a petition and send the idea to DC?

Paul Dee

07-13-2007, 07:50 AM

There was another story from years ago where Clayface posed as Jason Todd (albeit briefly) after his death wasn't there? Was that The Mud Pack story?

Buried Alien

07-13-2007, 03:41 PM

There was another story from years ago where Clayface posed as Jason Todd (albeit briefly) after his death wasn't there? Was that The Mud Pack story?

I remember that story, but I thought Batman was just hallucinating. That happened not long after Jason's death (before Tim first appeared, in fact). Other than the Joker, I don't think any of Batman's other enemies would have known that the second Robin had died at that point.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Paul Dee

07-13-2007, 04:10 PM

Thanks for that. That makes more sense as well, thinking about it.

"Buried Alien: keeping Paul Dee in line with Clayface/Jason Todd information since earlier this week" :)

Buried Alien

07-13-2007, 04:24 PM

Thanks for that. That makes more sense as well, thinking about it.

"Buried Alien: keeping Paul Dee in line with Clayface/Jason Todd information since earlier this week" :)

You could still be right about Clayface impersonating Jason during MUD PACK. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I believe that was actually the way it went down. It makes no sense, though. Few people at that point even knew that Jason Todd had replaced Dick Grayson as Robin, let alone knew that Jason had recently been killed. Clayface wasn't a likely candidate for having access to such knowledge.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Paul Dee

07-13-2007, 05:40 PM

Buried Alien

07-13-2007, 05:42 PM

Ah yeah, I was right:

http://pics.livejournal.com/icon_uk/pic/00014stk

from here (http://community.livejournal.com/robin_daily/81273.html)

I do also recall some story where Batman hallucinates and sees Jason Todd which was why I accepted your answer there although I suspect that's something that's been done in the comics a fair bit.

Batman has seen hallucinatory images of Jason numerous times since Jason died. Little wonder that Batman couldn't quite believe what he saw in HUSH and later, in UNDER THE HOOD despite his awareness than his world, there are ways to cheat death and he's seen several other people (i.e. Superman, Hal Jordan, Oliver Queen) do it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

glennsim

07-14-2007, 09:44 PM

For what it's worth, I think the current Jason is going to turn out to be from another Earth. Perhaps the other one really did die in Infinite Crisis.

Buried Alien

07-15-2007, 03:13 AM

For what it's worth, I think the current Jason is going to turn out to be from another Earth. Perhaps the other one really did die in Infinite Crisis.

It could be, but the Jason Todd appearing now in COUNTDOWN is consistent in attitude and modus operandi with the Jason who had returned from the dead and plagued Batman just before INFINITE CRISIS broke out. This isn't some variant of the goody two-shoes, Dick Grayson-clone Pre-COIE Jason Todd; this is definitely a Jason whose experiences paralleled that of the one who was killed by the Joker.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Captain Jim

07-15-2007, 05:45 AM

For what it's worth, I think the current Jason is going to turn out to be from another Earth. Perhaps the other one really did die in Infinite Crisis.

I hope you're right. I also hope this is the last we see of him.

Captain Jim

07-15-2007, 05:52 AM

It could be, but the Jason Todd appearing now in COUNTDOWN is consistent in attitude and modus operandi with the Jason who had returned from the dead and plagued Batman just before INFINITE CRISIS broke out. This isn't some variant of the goody two-shoes, Dick Grayson-clone Pre-COIE Jason Todd; this is definitely a Jason whose experiences paralleled that of the one who was killed by the Joker.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I'm a little surprized to see you say that. That Jason was a cold-blooded killer. He's sure not being treated that way in Countdown.

Buried Alien

07-15-2007, 11:03 PM

I'm a little surprized to see you say that. That Jason was a cold-blooded killer. He's sure not being treated that way in Countdown.

Maybe only because there's been nobody for him to kill.

This Jason is short-fused and violence-oriented, a la the Post-COIE Jason. He doesn't strike me as having much in common with the "nice guy" Pre-COIE Jason.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

glennsim

07-16-2007, 06:59 PM

Maybe only because there's been nobody for him to kill.

This Jason is short-fused and violence-oriented, a la the Post-COIE Jason. He doesn't strike me as having much in common with the "nice guy" Pre-COIE Jason.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

It's not so much how Jason has been behaving as how others are behaving towards him.

The other characters are treating him like he's a jerk but not a killer. Therefore my theory is that THIS Jason Todd is a jerk, but not a killer. The one who died in IC was the killer, but this one, in his retroactive history, might not have been a killer, only a jerk...

I doubt it will go this way, because I think DC is stuck on wanting to have a story where Donna teams up with Jason, regardless of whether she ever would, but aren't going to take the time to explain why.

Buried Alien

07-16-2007, 10:32 PM

The other characters are treating him like he's a jerk but not a killer. Therefore my theory is that THIS Jason Todd is a jerk, but not a killer. The one who died in IC was the killer, but this one, in his retroactive history, might not have been a killer, only a jerk...

Hmmm. Even then, Jason has been a killer Post-INFINITE CRISIS. He killed during his brief stint as Nightwing, and that occurred one year later.

But...as we've seen, time is broken. The only version of Jason Todd that had a close association with Donna Troy was the Pre-COIE version, and who knows where he is?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

glennsim

07-17-2007, 01:17 PM

Hmmm. Even then, Jason has been a killer Post-INFINITE CRISIS. He killed during his brief stint as Nightwing, and that occurred one year later.

But...as we've seen, time is broken. The only version of Jason Todd that had a close association with Donna Troy was the Pre-COIE version, and who knows where he is?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Well that gets you back into the "did the post-Crisis Jason do all of the pre-Crisis stuff". For example, was the post-Crisis Jason in the group that Donna gathered up to go after Cheshire (which happened after the Crisis, but before Jason's origin had been redone, IIRC, to add to the confusion).

I don't have a problem believing that the post-Crisis Jason was in that group and knew Donna from there.

AlexApprobation

07-26-2007, 06:29 PM

I still don't understand how the Superboy Prime stuff was needed to tell this story. I tend to forget/ignore it, and it all still holds up very well.

Oh, and I remain a huge Jason Todd/Red Hood fan.